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Old 01-11-2009, 11:09 PM   #1
The MVPlaya
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Default Mike Nolan's read and react defense...his scheme

Mike Nolan will be a good change for the defense, but we definitely need to add some talent. He obviously runs a 3-4, and we don't exactly have all the pieces to a 3-4 right now.

Mike Nolan uses a "read and react" defense. It is what it sounds, forces players to read then react. When the Niners were running this, they missed many assignments and gave up huge plays (sound familiar?). Some can possibly blame it on their lack of talent (sound familiar?).

Some might be thinking, "well aren't all defenses essentially read and react?"

No. In contrast, let's take the Ravens defense for example. They are an aggressive attack defense. Eagles are an aggressive attack defense.

I hate to say this, but our defense for the 2008 season was a "read and react" system. Those who watched most of the games should have easily seen this. For those who didn't...

Quote:
The Broncos made significant changes in the off-season, starting with a change in defensive boss from Jim Bates to Bob Slowik. Slowik installed a simpler, read-and-react system that players like more.
Nolan's system had worked with the Ravens from 01-04. He had major talent. They had an elite player at nearly every position. Bundled along with a massive pass rush... thus making it a great scheme. Here an interesting article on it October 2008 before he was fired from the Niners.

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The most famous Mike Nolan story, before he became coach of the 49ers, was about vanilla ice cream.

Washington Redskins owner Dan Snyder, the story goes, placed a carton of vanilla ice cream in Nolan's office, where it was allowed to melt into a sticky mess. The mean-spirited prank underscored the owner's criticism of his defensive coordinator's read-and-react philosophy, which Snyder had termed "vanilla."

That story was considered just another in the Snyder-as-meddling-owner file. But it's worth remembering now. Because Nolan's philosophy and his defense's inability to make the big stop and get off the field — all of that is bringing back the images of vanilla ice cream.

When Nolan has been asked this week what's wrong with the defense, he has turned the issue back on his players, using words such as "errors" and "mistakes."

"In the last two weeks, we've made several errors on our own account and have hurt ourselves," Nolan said. "Some have been technique, some have been mental."

None, though, apparently have been scheme or coaching. In another comment Monday, Nolan said it didn't matter how well something was drawn up on the chalkboard, it comes down to execution.

But questions about Nolan's philosophy have followed him for years, through his stints in the NFC East, first in New York and then in Washington. A decade ago, Redskins players grew frustrated under Nolan's direction. After being singled out by Snyder,
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Nolan vowed to become more aggressive, and defensive players wore shirts that read "Relentless. Attack. Physical." But after the 1999 season, when his defense finished at the bottom of the league, Nolan was fired, and the complaints about his passive system went public.

We're starting to hear some of the same grumblings about read-and-react around the 49ers. Though the 49ers did blitz about a third of the time against New England, they often were burned badly by Matt Cassel when they did. And some of the key gains for the Patriots — such as the play that put them in range for the clinching field goal— came when the 49ers were less aggressive.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't?

The defensive letdowns are problematic for Nolan. Although he has a defensive coordinator in Greg Manusky, it's clear that this defense is Nolan's baby. Nolan has completely turned the offense over to Mike Martz and while that unit has its problems, it has been more entertaining than in recent years. Nolan's defense is the bigger problem and that reflects poorly on a coach already under fire.

Wednesday, a couple of the 49ers who used to play in Philadelphia — safety Michael Lewis and linebacker Takeo Spikes — talked about playing under aggressive Eagles defensive coordinator Jim Johnson.

"That's his mentality," Spikes said. "It was a fun scheme, a scheme that I liked. You're in the attack mode all the time."

Lewis also loved the system that turns players loose, saying, "It's very aggressive. You never know where it's coming from. He's not afraid to put nine guys in the box."

When asked if the 49ers need to be more aggressive, Spikes said he thought they had a good mixture of approaches.

"It's all about what you're accustomed to running," he said. "These are two totally different mindsets. At the same time, it's personnel and what you draft people to come in and do."

Spikes was asked if he thought the 49ers' defense had an identity.

"I think we have an ID, but it's not consistent," he said.

And what is it?

"Make plays. Force turnovers."

The 49ers — tied for 21st in defense and ranked 23rd against the run — are tied with several other teams for seventh in the league in forcing turnovers. But right now the 49ers aren't making plays.

Whatever their identity is, it's very non-threatening. After five games, some might even call it vanilla.
Who knows what's happening though...

Maybe Mike Nolan won't be 100% in charge of the defense. Coming from Bill Belichick, McDaniels could instill a Patriots-esque defense.

The Patriots run a "Fairbanks-Bullough" 3-4 defense... basically the 2-gap 3-4 scheme where the dlineman take up both of the olineman's gaps. This type of defense is obviously much more on the conservative side than aggressive. However, it does create turnover's by confusing teams with disguises in coverages and such.

We'll need to start looking for more versatile Jack Will Mike and Sam's. 3-4 system's require extremely talented LB's to be competent. LB's that can blitz, pass rush, stop the run, and drop into coverage. LB's that can essentially play like elite d lineman or drop into coverage like Seymour or Harrison. Woodyard is the only player that can effectively drop into coverage and make tackles. His blitzing skills aren't too great, possibly because his size. It could be toned up with the right coaching, he definitely has the intensity.

We will see... I think as long as we get together a good staff it we can be successful regardless of what direction we go in.

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Old 01-11-2009, 11:12 PM   #2
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The 2008 Broncos defense was more like a Squint and Retreat scheme.
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Old 01-11-2009, 11:14 PM   #3
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I could have done without reading that...
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Old 01-11-2009, 11:14 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by The MVPlaya View Post
Mike Nolan will be a good change for the defense, but we definitely need to add some talent. He obviously runs a 3-4, and we don't exactly have all the pieces to a 3-4 right now.

Mike Nolan uses a "read and react" defense. It is what it sounds, forces players to read then react. When the Niners were running this, they missed many assignments and gave up huge plays. Some can possibly blame it on their lack of talent.

Some might be thinking, "well aren't all defenses essentially read and react?"

No. In contrast, let's take the Ravens defense for example. They are an aggressive attack defense. Eagles are an aggressive attack defense.

I hate to say this, but our defense for the 2008 season was a "read and react" system. Those who watched most of the games should have easily seen this. For those who didn't...



Nolan's system had worked with the Ravens from 01-04. He had major talent and a massive pass rush... thus making it a great scheme. Here an interesting article on it October 2008 before he was fired from the Niners.
Oy vay!
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Old 01-11-2009, 11:17 PM   #5
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Too bad, I was hoping the broncos would adopt an attacking defensive scheme next year.
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Old 01-11-2009, 11:19 PM   #6
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The 2008 Broncos defense was more like a Squint and Retreat scheme.

LMAO!
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Old 01-11-2009, 11:20 PM   #7
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I could have done without reading that...
You and me both...
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Old 01-11-2009, 11:22 PM   #8
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look on the bright side... 21at rank gets us in the playoffs this year.. haha
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Old 01-11-2009, 11:25 PM   #9
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Oy vay!
I'm sure you would have been happy with my post.

However, I just wanted to inform the fans with what we were getting. The Ravens defense from 01-04 forced many turnovers. It's not like this guy doesn't have a good resume.

The Niners situation could have been different... I'm not sure.

All I know is, to run an effective defense you need a pass rush and some talent.
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Old 01-11-2009, 11:27 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by The MVPlaya View Post
I'm sure you would have been happy with my post.

However, I just wanted to inform the fans with what we were getting. The Ravens defense from 01-04 forced many turnovers. It's not like this guy doesn't have a good resume.

The Niners situation could have been different... I'm not sure.

All I know is, to run an effective defense you need a pass rush and some talent.

The Ravens have had rock solid defensive personnel for many years going back to before Nolan was there.
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Old 01-11-2009, 11:36 PM   #11
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I could have gone without reading that
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You and me both...
Me 3.......

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Old 01-11-2009, 11:38 PM   #12
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The Titans have a mostly read and react style too.
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Old 01-11-2009, 11:41 PM   #13
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The Ravens have had rock solid defensive personnel for many years going back to before Nolan was there.
Who knows what's happening though...

Maybe Mike Nolan won't be 100% in charge of the defense and what will happen. Coming from Bill Belichick, McDaniels could instill a Patriots-esque defense.

The Patriots run a "Fairbanks-Bullough" 3-4 defense... basically the 2-gap 3-4 scheme where the dlineman take up both of the olineman's gaps. This type of defense is obviously much more on the conservative side than aggressive. However, it does create turnover's.

We'll need to start looking for more versatile Jack Will Mike and Sam's. 3-4 system's require extremely talented LB's to be competent. LB's that can blitz, pass rush, stop the run, and drop into coverage. LB's that can essentially play like elite d lineman or drop into coverage like Seymour or Harrison.

We will see...
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Old 01-11-2009, 11:45 PM   #14
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The Titans have a mostly read and react style too.
Yes they do. They are very aggressive and have a massive pass rush, which at the end of the day you will need.
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Old 01-11-2009, 11:46 PM   #15
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Yes they do. They are very aggressive and have a massive pass rush, which at the end of the day you will need.
You think Nolan and Capers can deliver that?
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Old 01-11-2009, 11:56 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by The MVPlaya View Post
Who knows what's happening though...

Maybe Mike Nolan won't be 100% in charge of the defense and what will happen. Coming from Bill Belichick, McDaniels could instill a Patriots-esque defense.

The Patriots run a "Fairbanks-Bullough" 3-4 defense... basically the 2-gap 3-4 scheme where the dlineman take up both of the olineman's gaps. This type of defense is obviously much more on the conservative side than aggressive. However, it does create turnover's.

We'll need to start looking for more versatile Jack Will Mike and Sam's. 3-4 system's require extremely talented LB's to be competent. LB's that can blitz, pass rush, stop the run, and drop into coverage. LB's that can essentially play like elite d lineman or drop into coverage like Seymour or Harrison.

We will see...
What is a Jack?

Also will they settle for linebackers with neat hair and celebrations, and really good track skills?
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Old 01-11-2009, 11:57 PM   #17
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Unless you are blitzing Most defenses are a read and react .... the offense dictates what the defense does , it is up to the defense to decide what they give up ...... short underneath stuff , or play tight and take chances with forcing an offense to go deep ........in other words Nolan isnt big on blitzing or being aggressive , and with the people we got on Defense , this may not be a bad thing , Webster , made so many wrong reads and got out of position so much, his nickname should be loss .........
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Old 01-12-2009, 12:03 AM   #18
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Nolan over Capers any day.

Nolan could bring UFA Suggs into the new 3-4 scheme which would jumpstart the defense.
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Old 01-12-2009, 12:04 AM   #19
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You think Nolan and Capers can deliver that?
I'm not sure to be honest. Usually you can feel energy on a certain topic. It was pretty easy to feel that McDaniels was getting hired. I know everyone could feel the energy before it happened.

With this, I'm not sure. It all depends on responsibilities and their goals. Like I said, Nolan might not have 100% on the defense. McDaniels should be calling the shots, so we'll have to see. I'd be psyched if we keep Dennison and Bates, as far as the offense is concerned.

We have experience coming from all angles, but from what it sounds like we might be going towards a more conservative defense, at this point in time at least.
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Old 01-12-2009, 12:04 AM   #20
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What is a Jack?
He plays in the box... Rimshot!
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Old 01-12-2009, 12:05 AM   #21
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What is a Jack?

Also will they settle for linebackers with neat hair and celebrations, and really good track skills?
Jack - Outside weak side linebacker
Will - Middle weak side line backer
Mike - Middle strong side linebacker
Sam - Outside strong side linebacker

I'd settle with someone with "neat hair" like Polamolu.
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Old 01-12-2009, 12:12 AM   #22
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Unless you are blitzing Most defenses are a read and react .... the offense dictates what the defense does , it is up to the defense to decide what they give up ...... short underneath stuff , or play tight and take chances with forcing an offense to go deep ........in other words Nolan isnt big on blitzing or being aggressive , and with the people we got on Defense , this may not be a bad thing , Webster , made so many wrong reads and got out of position so much, his nickname should be loss .........
Sure, generally, most defenses are read and react because that's essentially what you're always doing... however it's much more detailed than that. The read and react defenses of the Titans and Bears are different than what the Broncos were running. An attacking defense is can essentially be said to read and react, since you're seeing if it's a running play or passing play. I guess you can call it aggressive vs conservative.

The problem with the more conservative is that you sometimes might not get a pass rush, and it's easier to to miss assignments.

I would like to say that the Bears and Broncos were running similar schemes at times...

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Old 01-12-2009, 12:12 AM   #23
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Found this on another site...

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclop...riots-strategy

Fairbanks - Bullough 3-4 defensive system

The New England Patriots run a modified base 3-4 Chuck Fairbanks - Hank Bullough system[10] installed by Bill Belichick. The term 3-4 means that their base formation consists of 3 defensive linemen (defensive end, nose tackle, and defensive end), 4 linebackers (outside "Jack" weak side linebacker, middle "Will" weak side linebacker, middle "Mike" strong side linebacker, and outside "Sam" strong side linebacker), and 4 defensive backs (cornerback, free safety, strong safety, and cornerback)[11]. In the Patriots system the inside linebackers are the "Will" and "Mike" linebackers[12]. It is believed that this 3-4 structure gives the defense the greatest amount of flexibility because the linebackers are among the most versatile players on the defense, capable of doing any of the following: rushing the quarterback, tackling runners or dropping into coverage. By mixing the roles of their linebackers from play to play, the Patriots defense seeks to cause confusion on the part of opposing offenses. At times the Patriots will also shade their defensive linemen different ways, creating "over" or "under" defenses. "Over" and "under" defenses simply refer to the shift of the defensive linemen to the strong or weak side of the offense, respectively, and the rotation of the linebackers in the opposite direction. Chuck Fairbanks was a head coach for the National Football Leagues New England Patriots. ... Hank Bullough is a former head coach of the Buffalo Bills. ... A defensive lineman is any of the down positions on the defensive side of American football. ... A linebacker is a position in American and Canadian football. ... Defensive back (DB) is a player in American football whose role is primarily pass coverage; that is, the defensive back will stay near a receiver and try to deflect or intercept any passes thrown to him. ...

The "Fairbanks - Bullough" 3-4 system is known as a two gap system[13], because each of the defensive linemen are required to cover the gaps to both sides of the offensive lineman that try to block them[14]. Defensive linemen in this system tend to be stouter, as they need to be able to hold their place without being overwhelmed in order to allow the linebackers behind them to make plays[15]. This is the reason that defensive linemen such as Richard Seymour and Vince Wilfork do not always rack up gaudy sack and tackle statistics despite their critical importance to the team[16]. An offensive lineman (football) is one of a group of positions in American football. ... Richard Vershaun Seymour (born October 6, 1979 in Gadsden, South Carolina) is an American football defensive lineman for the New England Patriots of the National Football League. ... Vincent Lamar Wilfork (born November 4, 1981 in Boynton Beach, Florida) is an American football defensive tackle who currently plays for the New England Patriots of the National Football League. ...

The system is at times more conservative than certain other defenses currently in vogue in the league[17], despite the constant threat of its potent linebacker blitz. The Patriots defensive system generally places an emphasis on physicality and discipline over mobility and risk taking and is sometimes characterized as a "bend but do not break defense"[18].


History

The 3-4 defense was originally devised by Bud Wilkinson at the University of Oklahoma in the late 1940s[19]. Former Patriots and Oklahoma coach Chuck Fairbanks is credited with being a major figure in first bringing the 3-4 defense to the NFL in 1974[20]. Patriots defensive coordinator Hank Bullough made significant further innovations to the system[21]. Parcells was linebackers coach under Ron Erhardt as head coach of the Patriots in 1980 (after Fairbanks left for Colorado in 1978 and Bullough lost out on the head coaching position). When Parcells returned to the Giants as defensive coordinator under Ray Perkins in 1981, he brought the 3-4 defense with him. Charles Burnham Bud Wilkinson (April 23, 1916€“February 9, 1994) was an American football player, coach, and broadcaster. ... The University of Oklahoma features 17 varsity sports teams. ... The 1940s decade ran from 1940 to 1949. ... A defensive coordinator typically refers to a coach on a football team in the National Football League (or at other levels of American football) who is in charge of the defense. ... Hank Bullough is a former head coach of the Buffalo Bills. ... The New England Patriots finished the National Football Leagues 1980 season with a record of ten wins and six losses, and finished second in the AFC East division. ... The New England Patriots finished the National Football Leagues 1978 season with a record of eleven wins and five losses, and finished tied for first in the AFC East division. ... Year 1981 (MCMLXXXI) was a common year starting on Thursday (link displays the 1981 Gregorian calendar). ...

Bill Belichick was initially exposed to the 3-4 defense while working as an assistant under Red Miller, head coach of the Denver Broncos and a former Patriots offensive coordinator under Fairbanks. Joe Collier was the defensive coordinator under Red Miller at the time[22], and his orange crush defense was very successful at stifling opposing offenses. The Broncos had decided to adopt the 3-4 in 1977. Bill Belichick subsequently refined his understanding of the 3-4 as a linebackers coach and defensive coordinator under Parcells with the Giants. Belichick returned the 3-4 defense back to New England when he become coach of the team in 2000[23]. Romeo Crennel subsequently became defensive coordinator for the team. Robert Red Miller was a professional football coach with the the Denver Broncos. ... City Denver, Colorado Other nicknames Orange Crush (1977-1979 defense) Team colors Orange, Broncos Navy Blue, and White[1] Head Coach Mike Shanahan Owner Pat Bowlen General manager Ted Sundquist Mascot Miles League/Conference affiliations American Football League (1960-1969) Western Division (1960-1969) National Football League (1970€“present) American... Orange Crush Defense was the defense of the Denver Broncos during the 1970s. ... Also: 1977 (album) by Ash. ... Romeo Crennel (born June 18, 1947 in Lynchburg, Virginia) has been the head coach of the Cleveland Browns of the National Football League since February 8, 2005. ...


Other teams running similar defensive systems

Bill Parcells ran the Fairbanks - Bullough 3-4 defensive system during his coaching years[24]. Many teams coached by members of the Parcells - Belichick coaching tree currently run similar defensive systems, such as the University of Alabama under Nick Saban, the New York Jets under Eric Mangini and the Cleveland Browns under Romeo Crennel. The University of Alabama (also known as Alabama, UA or colloquially as Bama) is a public coeducational university located in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, USA. Founded in 1831, UA is the flagship campus of the University of Alabama System. ... Nicholas Lou Saban (born October 31, 1951 in Fairmont, West Virginia) is an American college football coach and the current head coach of the Alabama Crimson Tide. ... City East Rutherford, New Jersey Other nicknames Gang Green, the Green and White, Jersey Jets Team colors Hunter green and white Head Coach Eric Mangini Owner Woody Johnson General manager Mike Tannenbaum League/Conference affiliations American Football League (1960-1969) Eastern Division (1960-1969) National Football League (1970€“present) American... Eric Mangini (born January 19, 1971 in Hartford, Connecticut) is the current head coach of the New York Jets of the NFL. At the age of 35, he was the youngest head coach in the NFL, as well as the youngest coach in the four major North American sports, including... Browns redirects here. ... Romeo Crennel (born June 18, 1947 in Lynchburg, Virginia) has been the head coach of the Cleveland Browns of the National Football League since February 8, 2005. ...


Comparison to other 3-4 systems

The "Phillips 3-4", a one-gap version of the 3-4, was also brought into the league by Bum Phillips, head coach of the Houston Oilers in the 1970s. The Phillips 3-4 defense is currently run by the San Diego Chargers as well as the Dallas Cowboys now being coached by Wade Phillips, the son of Bum Phillips. Wade Phillips replaced Joe Collier as defensive coordinator of the Denver Broncos in 1989. The modern Phillips 3-4 is largely a one gap 3-4 system, meaning that the defensive linemen are often only responsible for one gap between the offensive linemen[25]. The linemen can afford to be more aggressive because they receive more support from the linebackers in performing their roles. This system generally prefers relatively lighter, more agile lineman better able to perform aggressive slants, loops and gap charges in order to directly attempt to sack the quarterback and make tackles[26]. Oail Andrew Bum Phillips (born on September 29, 1923 in Nederland, Texas or Orange, Texas) is a former National Football League (NFL) head coach. ... City New Orleans, Louisiana Team colors Old Gold, Black, and White Head Coach Sean Payton Owner Tom Benson General manager Mickey Loomis Mascot Gumbo League/Conference affiliations National Football League (1967€“present) Eastern Conference (1967-1969) Capitol Division (1967; 1969) Century Division (1968) National Football Conference (1970-present) NFC West... City Irving, Texas Other nicknames Americas Team, The Boys Team colors White, Silver, Silver-Green, Royal Blue, Navy Blue Head Coach Wade Phillips Owner Jerry Jones General manager Jerry Jones League/Conference affiliations National Football League (1960€“present) Eastern Conference (1960-1969) Capitol Division (1967-1969) National Football Conference... Wade Phillips (born June 21, 1947 in Orange, Texas) is the current head coach for the National Football Leagues Dallas Cowboys. ... Year 1989 (MCMLXXXIX) was a common year starting on Sunday (link displays 1989 Gregorian calendar). ...

The 3-4 zone blitz defense was developed by Dick LeBeau as defensive coordinator of the Pittsburgh Steelers. It commonly calls upon linemen to be mobile enough to drop back into zone coverage in place of blitzing linebackers[27]. Elements of the 3-4 zone blitz defense have been incorporated over time into the modern Phillips 3-4. The Zone Blitz is a common method of defensive pressure applied in American football, usually at the collegiate and professional levels. ... Richard Dick LeBeau is a former football player and is presently the Pittsburgh Steelers defensive coordinator. ... Steelers redirects here. ...
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Old 01-12-2009, 12:16 AM   #24
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Sure, generally, most defenses are read and react because that's essentially what you're always doing... however it's much more detailed than that. The read and react defenses of the Titans and Bears are different than what the Broncos were running.

I would like to say that the Bears and Broncos were running similar schemes at times...
dont need to complicate this into something more , as I said it is up to the D as what they give up to the offense , but it all boils down to beating the man in front of you , Broncos for the most part ran a very soft zone , mainly cause our front 7 couldnt read a Dr Seuss book with out help , much less PAP , or the POA , we got lucky a few times , but Webster was all out of sorts .......
so in essence we gave a real soft underneath ......Bears with Urlacher didnt have to .........
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Old 01-12-2009, 12:18 AM   #25
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I survived Tebow Mania at the Mane

Join Date: May 2001
Location: Elway was just an arm =MacGruder
Posts: 84,156

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Von Miller
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDave View Post
Elements of the 3-4 zone blitz defense have been incorporated over time into the modern Phillips 3-4. The Zone Blitz is a common method of defensive pressure applied in American football, usually at the collegiate and professional levels. ... Richard Dick LeBeau is a former football player and is presently the Pittsburgh Steelers defensive coordinator. ... Steelers redirects here. ...
aka the Zone dog blitz of dom Capers of a 4-3 D .....
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