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Old 04-17-2008, 06:31 PM   #2701
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Nice dodge....like that covers anything up.
It's not a cover-up - it's an acknowledgement that there's a difference between personal tastes and objective fact.
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Old 04-17-2008, 07:06 PM   #2702
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It's not a cover-up - it's an acknowledgement that there's a difference between personal tastes and objective fact.
It's the inability to acknowledge the difference between a personal bias and objective fact....tagging on a smilie at the end as some sort of blow softener does nothing to hide the intent of the post.

Speaking of objectivity, that's the difference between you & I in this field. I can listen objectively to the areas you travel in musically and celebrate the artists I find worthwhile there whereas you are dismissive of anything that you deem "too easy to play" or "not challenging enough" (and if I'm wrong here , by all means point out some examples, I'm not afraid to admit mistakes).......and that's fine really....as long as you admit to what it really is.....an unobjective bias.
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Old 04-17-2008, 07:36 PM   #2703
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It's the inability to acknowledge the difference between a personal bias and objective fact....tagging on a smilie at the end as some sort of blow softener does nothing to hide the intent of the post.
The "intent" of the post was to express my musical likes and dislikes, tastes, etc. (Just like you and everyone else here have a right to do.) Unlike you, however, I usually qualify my remarks with "IMO" or "JMO." In other words, I acknowledge that my opinions are just that - opinions - and not some sort of aesthetic 'facts.'

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Originally Posted by Hogan11 View Post
Speaking of objectivity, that's the difference between you & I in this field. I can listen objectively to the areas you travel in musically and celebrate the artists I find worthwhile there whereas you are dismissive of anything that you deem "too easy to play" or "not challenging enough" (and if I'm wrong here , by all means point out some examples, I'm not afraid to admit mistakes).......and that's fine really....as long as you admit to what it really is.....an unobjective bias.
You want examples?

I was just digging on some old Rolling Stones records last night.

Can't get much more primitive or easy to play than that.

As for your claims about your alleged forays into the "areas (I) travel in musically," you, by your own admission, have never even heard of most of the artists I've mentioned since this thread was started.
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Old 04-18-2008, 10:28 AM   #2704
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Incubus - Morning View

Incubus are probably one of the best rock bands of the era. Boyd's vocals are sometimes excellent, and sometimes redundant. He writes interesting lyrics and is dynamic within his range. This band is carried by the drummer Pasillas and the guitar player Einziger, both of whose quirky style and technical ability define the sound of the band.
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Old 04-18-2008, 02:41 PM   #2705
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Recently put "Who's Next" in my car and was reminded what a freaking brilliant album it is.

I concur.
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Old 04-18-2008, 06:59 PM   #2706
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I had a nice mix going on at work, hooked my media player up to my speakers.
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Old 04-18-2008, 07:43 PM   #2707
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Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN View Post
The "intent" of the post was to express my musical likes and dislikes, tastes, etc. (Just like you and everyone else here have a right to do.) Unlike you, however, I usually qualify my remarks with "IMO" or "JMO." In other words, I acknowledge that my opinions are just that - opinions - and not some sort of aesthetic 'facts.'
Yeah sure, if you say so....

Quote:
You want examples?

I was just digging on some old Rolling Stones records last night.
Now, that's good to see.

Quote:
Can't get much more primitive or easy to play than that.
You certainly can.

Quote:
As for your claims about your alleged forays into the "areas (I) travel in musically," you, by your own admission, have never even heard of most of the artists I've mentioned since this thread was started.
Now, that's just not true. Sure, you've stumped me a couple of times over the years and I've admitted as such, but consistantly blanking me? I don't think so. In any event, whenever something is posted that I have no knowledge of or have never heard before, I check it out and give it a fair hearing every time.....can you honestly say the same thing?
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Old 04-18-2008, 08:30 PM   #2708
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"Primitive and Easy to Play," thy name is Neil Young.

As a guitar player, trust me that few if any can aspire to the heights of incompetence parading as skill than Young scales each and every time out. He open tunes all his hard-edged electric stuff (open tunings mean you get a fully formed chord just strumming open strings ... kinda like 'Guitar Hero'). Even my 12 year old nephew could manage a decent 'Cinnamon Girl' after maybe 90 minutes of instruction. And rarely if ever has rudimetary, ham-handed playing and sophomoric, warbling singing come together in a live one-man performance as starkly as "Needle and the Damage Done" on the Harvest and Decade albums.

But that doesn't mean Neil Young's music is BAD ... I happen to like Cinnamon Girl. And Needle and Damage Done is a hauntingly meaningful song that'll send chills up your spine if it catches you at the right time. I used to play it as a solo performer, and I'm here to tell you people ADORE that song -it stops 'em dead in their tracks.


My point is that musicianship and quality of musical product have little to do with each other. I can't play like Al Di Meola or Yngwie Malmstein, but I'd never listen to their music ... I play better than Neil Young, but I will always listen to him.
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Old 04-18-2008, 08:38 PM   #2709
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My point is that musicianship and quality of musical product have little to do with each other.
Now, that's a bona fide fact.
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Old 04-18-2008, 09:38 PM   #2710
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Now, that's a bona fide fact.
As a corollary to that "bona-fide fact," the Chargers probably have had the most pure talent on their roster the last few years, but they're routinely shown the door in Round 1 every playoff year. ONE playoff win this decade with the most talented roster. Go figure.


It should NOT be said that excellent musicianship has NO bearing on quality of music ... but excellent musicianship is judged on an OBJECTIVE standard, where great music is judged on a SUBJECTIVE standard. You can't tell somebody they shouldn't like the music they like, but you can (with sufficient expertise) correctly rate which are the most talented musicians. Some people like Creedence Clearwater better than Led Zeppelin ... and no matter how clearly you prove the "bonafide fact" that CCR are just marginal musicians, they won't abandon them for Zep's groundbreaking virtuosity, no matter what.

Thus, SKILL = Judged Objectively ... ENJOYMENT = Judged Subjectively.

Along those lines, personally I find music from innovative and creative musicians far more interesting than purely talented players ... thus, Rolling Stones beat Yes, Jimmy Page beats Hendrix.
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Old 04-19-2008, 01:55 AM   #2711
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It should NOT be said that excellent musicianship has NO bearing on quality of music ... but excellent musicianship is judged on an OBJECTIVE standard, where great music is judged on a SUBJECTIVE standard. You can't tell somebody they shouldn't like the music they like, but you can (with sufficient expertise) correctly rate which are the most talented musicians.

Thus, SKILL = Judged Objectively ... ENJOYMENT = Judged Subjectively.
Very well put.

My position exactly.

BTW, +1 on the Neil Young appreciation thing.
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Old 04-19-2008, 02:00 AM   #2712
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In any event, whenever something is posted that I have no knowledge of or have never heard before, I check it out and give it a fair hearing every time.....can you honestly say the same thing?
Why should this matter, really?

It's really not important that you check out the stuff I like, and vice versa.

I know what kinds of music I like and which kinds I don't care for, and I'm sure you do too.
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Old 04-19-2008, 02:13 AM   #2713
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My point is that musicianship and quality of musical product have little to do with each other.
But "quality" is always subjective.

In other words, "quality" = "what pleases me."

And it also depends: what are you trying to say musically, and how much musicianship is required to get your message across?

If your only goal is to be the guitarist in the Rolling Stones, then, obviously, less musicianship is required than if your goal is to, say, play the music of Andres Segovia or John Coltrane.

But I get your drift - Neither Keith Richards nor Neil Young are exactly virtuoso musicians, but I still dig them. Conversely, I share your sentiments re: DiMeola and Yngwie - they both bore me (not because they play with a lot of technique, but because of what they do, or don't do, as the case may be, with that technique.)
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Old 04-19-2008, 06:28 AM   #2714
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Why should this matter, really?

It's really not important that you check out the stuff I like, and vice versa.

I know what kinds of music I like and which kinds I don't care for, and I'm sure you do too.
It should matter, just on the grounds for maximum exposure, if nothing else. You never know what you may find worthwhile in a genre that you don't really care for...and there's really only one way to find out.

Now, that's JMO mind you...I know many are not as passionate and obsessive as I am when it comes to this stuff. I know not everyone enjoys searching for gold. Maybe it is just my obsession to hear everything that I possibly can or maybe it bounces back again to the review work I used to do, but to willfully turn a deaf ear to something without checking it out at all smacks of ignorance to me, especially when one prejudges something based upon the genre itself. I'll never understand such things.

Now I'm not saying I'm accusing you of that in those terms, but if that shoe fits for anyone....they are not doing themselves any favors.

Case in point: I'm not a country music fan. In the late 80's to early 90's, I was presented with a steady parade of what I felt were pretty faceless performers who all followed the same formulas....so I sat thru album after album of your Randy Travis and your George Strait's et.al. trying to find something distinctive and was presented one day with Lyle Lovette And His Large Band. Now I could've just sat it aside and said "Just another country album" and wrote it off out of hand, but that would've been unfair and is as great a crime to me personally as someone being a bandwagon fan in sports. Since I'm all about fairness and giving everything a shot, I put it on and was very pleasantly surprised by it......it remains one of the few C&W albums I continue to own to this day.

I never would've found it if I didn't consider checking out everything I can to be extremely important.
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Old 04-19-2008, 08:19 AM   #2715
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It should matter, just on the grounds for maximum exposure, if nothing else. You never know what you may find worthwhile in a genre that you don't really care for...and there's really only one way to find out.

Now, that's JMO mind you...I know many are not as passionate and obsessive as I am when it comes to this stuff. I know not everyone enjoys searching for gold. Maybe it is just my obsession to hear everything that I possibly can or maybe it bounces back again to the review work I used to do, but to willfully turn a deaf ear to something without checking it out at all smacks of ignorance to me, especially when one prejudges something based upon the genre itself. I'll never understand such things.

Now I'm not saying I'm accusing you of that in those terms, but if that shoe fits for anyone....they are not doing themselves any favors.

Case in point: I'm not a country music fan. In the late 80's to early 90's, I was presented with a steady parade of what I felt were pretty faceless performers who all followed the same formulas....so I sat thru album after album of your Randy Travis and your George Strait's et.al. trying to find something distinctive and was presented one day with Lyle Lovette And His Large Band. Now I could've just sat it aside and said "Just another country album" and wrote it off out of hand, but that would've been unfair and is as great a crime to me personally as someone being a bandwagon fan in sports. Since I'm all about fairness and giving everything a shot, I put it on and was very pleasantly surprised by it......it remains one of the few C&W albums I continue to own to this day.

I never would've found it if I didn't consider checking out everything I can to be extremely important.
I do music for a living, so 'maximum exposure' is part of my daily life. I never know from one week to the next what style of music I might be called upon to play. I think over time (and with enough exposure) we all discover what kinds of things really speak to us and what kinds of things don't.

BTW, the guy who played bass on my last original project did several records/tours with Lyle Lovett. Small world.
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Old 04-19-2008, 12:10 PM   #2716
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SRV and some Sublime, cleaning house music.
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Old 04-19-2008, 12:49 PM   #2717
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SRV and some Sublime, cleaning house music.
I once rode in a Town Car with three members of the Long Beach Dub All-Stars (formerly Sublime) from a famous recording studio at 5th and Fairfax to Long Beach... they were amazingly regular guys except the singer Opie, who was weird - purposely over-aggressive.

What's that studio LABF? West sde of Fairfax at about 5th ... owned by brothers ... some of the famously muddy Led Zep 2 tracks were recorded there?
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Old 04-19-2008, 02:42 PM   #2718
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Hogan Vs LA Broncos fan....

DEATHMATCH!
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Old 04-19-2008, 03:13 PM   #2719
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But that doesn't mean Neil Young's music is BAD ... I happen to like Cinnamon Girl. And Needle and Damage Done is a hauntingly meaningful song that'll send chills up your spine if it catches you at the right time. I used to play it as a solo performer, and I'm here to tell you people ADORE that song -it stops 'em dead in their tracks.
But every junkies like a setting sun

That is one of the best lines in the history of rock.
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Old 04-19-2008, 03:44 PM   #2720
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Hogan Vs LA Broncos fan....

DEATHMATCH!

LA has a knack for turning a perfectly good thread into a cluster****.
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Old 04-19-2008, 04:36 PM   #2721
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LA has a knack for turning a perfectly good thread into a cluster****.
Actually, we were having a pretty decent musical discussion until you came along.
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Old 04-19-2008, 05:15 PM   #2722
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I once rode in a Town Car with three members of the Long Beach Dub All-Stars (formerly Sublime) from a famous recording studio at 5th and Fairfax to Long Beach... they were amazingly regular guys except the singer Opie, who was weird - purposely over-aggressive.

What's that studio LABF? West sde of Fairfax at about 5th ... owned by brothers ... some of the famously muddy Led Zep 2 tracks were recorded there?
Cool, I was born and raised in Long Beach.

I was around when they were small time.

Its funny to see a band grow up and make it big time right before your eyes.

I have some of my own recordings from shows I went to back in the day
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Old 04-19-2008, 09:18 PM   #2723
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Very well put.

My position exactly.

BTW, +1 on the Neil Young appreciation thing.
Like anybody, I love Young's songwriting ... but I must admit to feeling conflicted about his rudimentary singing and playing. When I watch him hammering away on that open-tuned Les Paul, the same 7-8 bend for 32 bars in a row, I get kinda queasy sometimes. And then I catch sight of the Hendrix button on his strap, and I have to roll my eyes.

But the surefire proof he is straight up delusional about his musicianship came at the Oscars maybe 12+ years ago. His song "Philadelphia" (from the movie of the same name) was nominated for best song, and when it came time to perform it, I was shocked to see him sitting at a grand piano, intending to sing AND play. Needless to say, both suffered tremendously as his sophomoric falsetto lost much of its charm as he struggled to hunt and peck the notes of the song, missing several and awkwardly losing the tempo of the piece. He turned his poignant, moving song into an underskilled lesson in humility ... on the largest entertainment stage in the world. It wasn't "humiliating" per se, but a real piano player would've pumped a good chunk of depth into the rendering for sure.
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Old 04-19-2008, 09:24 PM   #2724
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Hogan Vs LA Broncos fan.... DEATHMATCH!
The weird part is (as several have pointed out in this thread) they actually agree 90% of the time. They just choose to express their agreements in argumentative terms.


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LA has a knack for turning a perfectly good thread into a cluster****.
No no no ... definitely not, there's no 'cluster' of any kind here. In fact, we're intruding on their discussion.

Go back through the last 15 pages of this thread ... there's some great stuff in there if you look beyond the surface-tension masquerading as disagreement. They'd be just fine with their very own thread. I for one wouldn't miss a post
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Old 04-19-2008, 09:25 PM   #2725
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BTW, k.d. lang covered Neil Young's "After the Gold Rush" and "Helpless" on her "Hymns from the 49th Parallel" album in 2004 ... in which she covered fellow Canadians' songs:
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