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Old 01-19-2008, 01:10 PM   #2426
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I prefer those musicians who are dedicated to achieving the highest level of musicianship possible AND having fun.

Nothing wrong with complexity as long as it's sincere and not just an effort to impress, IMO.
There's nothing wrong with any of that at all as long as they're just as cool about playing three chords all night as they are about their "complexity".

Unfortunately....I've never encountered one of those guys that was.
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Old 01-19-2008, 04:40 PM   #2427
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Blind Willie Johnson - The complete recordings.

With a haunting voice and skilled slide, one of the best from the delta era.

If you like gospel blues, check it out.

Jesus make up my dying bed is one of the best.
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Old 01-19-2008, 06:27 PM   #2428
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LABF, you're a professional, so I need your opinion (unless it's different than mine). I was a freshman in college, like 19 years old, and we were jamming with this guy who was a big shot senior or some damn thing (6th year trust fund senior). He wasn't a very good player really, but he lived in a great house with senior guys and had a lotta money and great car (who drives a convertible in Boulder?) and great gear - really really great gear (LP Gold Top, Strat, Mesa Boogie head + Marshall 4x12, Ovation Patriot which was cool at the time anyway).

So, he had this great gear, and was a jazz guy too, and we were at his house listening to Al DeMeola (whom he worshipped), and I said something like "he reminds me of Eddie Van Halen in that speed and flash kinda come first." Well, he lit into me a bit, and actually said something like, "man, you need to buy some Stridex and listen to some decent music, then come back in a year and tell me what you think." Everyone laughed - even my friends! And LABF, there were GIRLS THERE!! AND THEY LAUGHED TOO!!!!

I'm still not over it ... I need to heal from this, LABF.

TELL ME I WAS RIGHT ABOUT AL DEMEOLA!

HEAL ME LABF!

HEAL ME!!



The insult that made a man out of Mac...

j/k

On the real, I've always felt the same way about DiMeola, i.e., that he was all about technique for its own sake. When he initially emerged in the 70s, I remember being impressed by his chops but completely unmoved on an emotional/aesthetic level.

Yngwie Malmsteen is another guitarist (working in the rock genre) whose solos amount to little more than "let's see how fast I can play these harmonic minor scale sequences or diminished arpeggios."

Now we get to the healing part...

Here's a little anecdote that should put things in perspective:

The guy who transcribed all of Yngwie's solos for his RHS instructional video was my reading teacher at G.I.T. and a good friend of mine named Dave Hill.

Anyway, Dave doesn't have anywhere near the kind of chops that Yngwie has, but he was able to transcribe all of Yngwie's licks (for the booklet that comes with the video) with very little effort.

Why?

Because there is ultimately nothing really melodically interesting about the lines Yngwie plays. That is to say, he just runs up and down scales, sequences, and arpeggios - there are no real motifs or phrases that jump around intervallically or vary in contour. The contour of his lines is nearly always uniform and, hence, more or less predictable.

The same thing can be said, perhaps to a slightly lesser degree, of DiMeola's solos.

As for my tastes, I'll take a guy like Frank Gambale who probably has more chops than DiMeola but who (for the most part) only uses them as a means to an end, i.e., as a means of getting his ideas across.
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Old 01-19-2008, 06:35 PM   #2429
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If this is your assessment of Carlton as a musician then you obviously don't know much about either music or Carlton.

For the record, I'm no fan of "wanking" either (can't stand to listen to Yngwie and his ilk) but there's a difference between playing a lot of notes just to impress people with your chops vs. playing a lot of notes that make melodic sense or have some sort of melodic design.

It's funny how guitar players are the only musicians who get slammed for playing fast or playing a lot of notes - you never hear anyone accuse John Coltrane of being a "wanker."

Seriously, do you even know who Larry Carlton is or who he's recorded and/or performed with?
Spare me the lecture.

Your talking to a guy who tried to fit Chris Squire, Victor Wooten, and Jaco into every song he ever encountered.

I know a slew of great studio players, many of whom you probably worship as much as Carlton. One of whom is one of the best quick jazz pickers of his era. I'm sure you have his poster on your wall.

You dont have to be Yngwie or Buckethead to wank. There are plenty of players who shred their way through the pentatonic or any brand of scale you can think of.

Dont be so full of yourself.

And dont let that guy continue sporting the mullet.

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Old 01-19-2008, 06:39 PM   #2430
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There's nothing wrong with any of that at all as long as they're just as cool about playing three chords all night as they are about their "complexity".

Unfortunately....I've never encountered one of those guys that was.
Three chords all night?

I dunno, man....

Like I said, I'm not a big fan of complexity for its own sake, but there's such a thing as too little complexity or variation.

The three basic elements of music are melody, harmony, and rhythm.

Of these three elements, rhythm is probably the strongest - which is why a great blues or rock band with a jumpin' rhythm section can keep people on the dance floor all night with little more than the three chords you mentioned.

However, as a musician with a trained ear, there has to be a certain amount of variety in the other two areas for me to stay interested.

I realize this is just my personal aesthetic and that it probably doesn't represent the majority of people who listen to popular music.
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Old 01-19-2008, 06:45 PM   #2431
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Spare me the lecture.

Your talking to a guy who tried to fit Chris Squire, Victor Wooten, and Jaco into every song he ever encountered.

I know a slew of great studio players, many of whom you probably worship as much as Carlton. One of whom is one of the best quick jazz pickers of his era. I'm sure you have his poster on your wall.

You dont have to be Yngwie or Buckethead to wank. There are plenty of players who shred their way through the pentatonic or any brand of scale you can think of.

Dont be so full of yourself.

And dont let that guy continue sporting the mullet.
Full of myself?

For simply questioning your reasons for dismissing Carlton a "wanker?"

I stand by my original statement - if you really believe this then you either don't know anything about Carlton or you don't know when the term "wanker" is appropriate.

If you don't dig his style, then I have no argument with that.

I can't stand country music, but you won't hear me calling Brent Mason or Albert Lee "wankers."
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Old 01-19-2008, 06:50 PM   #2432
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Full of myself?

For simply questioning your reasons for dismissing Carlton a "wanker?"

I stand by my original statement - if you really believe this then you either don't know anything about Carlton or you don't know when the term "wanker" is appropriate.
"Wanking" would include fitting 32nd notes over a slow tempo'ed cheesy strings pad and a rhythm section who completely gets themselves out of the way.

That type of play is much more appropriate virtuoso rather than in some club full of players who think they are so much better than the people they work for. You know...the creative ones.
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Old 01-19-2008, 06:50 PM   #2433
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I can't stand country music, but you won't hear me calling Brent Mason or Albert Lee "wankers."
That's because neither of them are.
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Old 01-19-2008, 07:06 PM   #2434
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"Wanking" would include fitting 32nd notes over a slow tempo'ed cheesy strings pad and a rhythm section who completely gets themselves out of the way.
It depends on the specific notes being played and the reason for playing them, IMO.

In any event, anyone who knows anything about Larry Carlton knows his entire reputation was built on tone, taste, phrasing, and an incredible melodic sense.

Do you really think he would have gotten all those calls to play on a gazillion different records by just about every artist under the sun if he was a "wanker?"
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Old 01-19-2008, 07:07 PM   #2435
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Has this thread gone (musical debate)? post some tunes and leave the BS on the war religion thread (where it belongs).
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Old 01-19-2008, 07:07 PM   #2436
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That's because neither of them are.
But both of these guys play more notes in a single solo than Carlton has played in his entire career.
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Old 01-19-2008, 07:09 PM   #2437
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Has this thread gone (musical debate)? post some tunes and leave the BS on the war religion thread (where it belongs).


How does a musical discussion belong on a war, religion, and politics forum?

No one is stopping you from posting tunes here - knock yourself out.
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Old 01-19-2008, 07:36 PM   #2438
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But both of these guys play more notes in a single solo than Carlton has played in his entire career.
Both of them do so within their genre in appropriate situations.

Look, I'm not saying that the guy isnt a quality player. He is obviously very talented. I wouldnt say the same for Yngwie. BUT, that is a wanktastic solo you produced there.

A great player, IMO, evokes emotions. Whether its Gilmour's one-note-wonders, BB King's simple bending, or Steve Howe's furious chopping.

The best players are the ones who recognize how much just one note can do.

I always liked Tony Levin's discussion on that subject.
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Old 01-19-2008, 07:52 PM   #2439
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The best players are the ones who recognize how much just one note can do.
And Carlton built his rep on being just such a player.

That's why I felt it was unfair to judge him on the basis of one Youtube moment.
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Old 01-20-2008, 04:14 AM   #2440
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I've always felt the same way about DiMeola, i.e., that he was all about technique for its own sake. When he initially emerged in the 70s, I remember being impressed by his chops but completely unmoved on an emotional/aesthetic level.
GLORY! I am HEALED!
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Old 01-20-2008, 02:37 PM   #2441
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Three chords all night?

I dunno, man....

Like I said, I'm not a big fan of complexity for its own sake, but there's such a thing as too little complexity or variation.

The three basic elements of music are melody, harmony, and rhythm.

Of these three elements, rhythm is probably the strongest - which is why a great blues or rock band with a jumpin' rhythm section can keep people on the dance floor all night with little more than the three chords you mentioned.

However, as a musician with a trained ear, there has to be a certain amount of variety in the other two areas for me to stay interested.

I realize this is just my personal aesthetic and that it probably doesn't represent the majority of people who listen to popular music.
I actually ment it in terms of playing with other people of various ability. A lot of times, especially when I was learning the rudiments, none of those types would condescend to playing with you...they were very exclusionary due to their snobbishness on the musicianship grounds.
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Old 01-20-2008, 02:43 PM   #2442
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Flashy, fast play by itself = Bodybuilding as a sport. The individual as a showoff.

Melodic, song-oriented play = Team sport like football. One guy can be awesome, but the team comes first.


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Old 01-20-2008, 04:44 PM   #2443
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Sometimes, you just plain don't need anyone....case in point, here's my girl, KT Tunstall, on her breakout UK TV appearance on Later....she stomps on a mean tambourine I tell ya.
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Old 01-20-2008, 08:43 PM   #2444
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Ok i have no clue if this works or not but my son put up a new song from his band on his myspace and iam putting it in here so you guys can hear it. Ya it's rough but my kid practices his a** off and has come along way i 3 years teaching himself basically. (So if you have a myspace account you can hear it) ohhh he plays lead.

His band is called sadistic
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...4-5c9388b5e0fe
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Old 01-22-2008, 01:56 PM   #2445
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Sebastian Bach - Angel Down
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Old 01-22-2008, 08:48 PM   #2446
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Old 01-24-2008, 07:21 AM   #2447
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How cool is KT Tunstall? She now plays Bo Diddley's Gunslinger guitar, that's how. The track is much better live than on Drastic Fantastic IMO

I know, female pop singer...but I think she's brilliant, so sue me.
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Old 01-24-2008, 08:07 AM   #2448
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I like chica sings hogan. When i was in seattle i saw pretty girls make graves play at the sonic boom record shop - for a little woman she can pack a voice.
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Old 01-24-2008, 02:38 PM   #2449
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Right now I'm spinning Chomsky - Hogan, you should check it out. Think avant-garde new wave in a pop-rock format.

They have long since been disbanded, but very interesting for the active listener.
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Old 01-24-2008, 02:42 PM   #2450
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Also listening to Band of Horses' new disc.

Alot of feeling with little musicianship. Think Coldplay filtered through the Western NC Appalachians with a little Sunny Day Real Estate guitar styling in there while Ben channels Perry Farrell.

There are some good moments on the disc, and it makes for an atmospheric, regional type of listen. Which I dont think is necessarily a bad thing at all. Its kind of like driving though the Appalacians at night with a clear sky overhead and peace in your heart.
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