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Old 01-12-2008, 09:28 AM   #2351
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Steve Perry is so gay.

Pipes, yeah, but what a d!ck. He chased every guy but Schon outta that band, one at a time - Aynsley Dunbar, Gregg Rolie, Ross Valory. First album 'Infinity' is great, bu as he got his claws into them, the music got worse ... and worse ... and worse ... and worse .... and worse ....

Funny part is - after Perry had health problems and left the band - they found a guy whose voice is a carbon copy. Go figure.
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Old 01-12-2008, 12:59 PM   #2352
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Steve Perry is so gay.

Pipes, yeah, but what a d!ck. He chased every guy but Schon outta that band, one at a time - Aynsley Dunbar, Gregg Rolie, Ross Valory. First album 'Infinity' is great, bu as he got his claws into them, the music got worse ... and worse ... and worse ... and worse .... and worse ....

Funny part is - after Perry had health problems and left the band - they found a guy whose voice is a carbon copy. Go figure.
That's because, at the end of the day, it appears that singers ripping off the vocal stylings of Sam Cooke are a dime a dozen.
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Old 01-13-2008, 05:49 AM   #2353
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What does all this tabloid crap have to do with the discussion?

Hogan said having pipes was non-essential.

I say it depends: Non-essential if you're Bob Dylan, but definitely essential if you want to be the lead singer for Journey (a band that was circling the drain before Steve Perry came along and saved it from extinction.)
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Old 01-13-2008, 07:18 AM   #2354
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Well ... YOU brought up Journey.

But ok, back to the topic. I love chicks with pipes, Smyth, Benatar, kd lang, Ann Wilson (Kay Starr, Doris Day, Streisand). But a chick can be an incredible artist (or as I prefer to look at it - have an incredible song) even with just an average voice:





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Old 01-13-2008, 07:29 AM   #2355
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This Mutt Lange number is as good a song as any song I have ever ever heard (pardon the video, I needed this song version):



This is a great song - great Irish chick singer, but with nominal pipes - Hariett Wheeler of the Sundays:



So there.
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Old 01-13-2008, 10:22 AM   #2356
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Well ... YOU brought up Journey.
I brought up Journey to make my point in response to Hogan's statement that having a great voice was not essential.

I could have used another band as an example.

At any rate, the question of whether having a great voice is essential or not obviously depends on considerations like the style of music you play, the area of music in which you make your living, the audience you're trying to reach, etc.

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But a chick can be an incredible artist (or as I prefer to look at it - have an incredible song) even with just an average voice:
That's true (insofar as what you deem "incredible" is something other than vocal ability, e.g., the songwriting, the lyrics, the performance, the arrangement, or whatever.)

Conversely, a singer with an incredible voice can give you chills when singing a simple or average tune.
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Old 01-13-2008, 10:26 AM   #2357
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This is a great song - great Irish chick singer, but with nominal pipes - Hariett Wheeler of the Sundays:

So there.


"Great" is utterly subjective when you're talking about music (especially pop music) wouldn't you agree?
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Old 01-13-2008, 11:44 AM   #2358
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Some of my favorite female vocalists (pop or otherwise) include the likes of KT Tunstall, Michelle Branch, Sarah McLachlan, Dido, Lisa Loeb, The Indigo Girls, Liz Phair, Chrissy Hynde etc.

There are some very fine "pipes" in that group...McLachlan especially, but (sticking with Sarah as an example) she's often hindered by the fact that her material is more often than not, medicore. OTOH, KT Tunstall's material has been very good to great overall, but she has a voice that probably couldn't be considered as great.....but it has a certain smokey sexiness to it like that of a Chrissy Hynde which I find much more charming and warm than someone with operetic range.

In any event, I still feel that having pipes is non-essential. I'll bring up Pat Benatar again as an example. Incredible range and all that...but her records were terrible. What good is having a great voice when the material it's applied to is basically unlistenable?
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Old 01-13-2008, 12:36 PM   #2359
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How about this chick:
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:48 PM   #2360
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"Great" is utterly subjective when you're talking about music (especially pop music) wouldn't you agree?
Absolutely ... the word "great" should probably be removed from the lexicon.

I think music - more than any artistic expression - is narrowly subjective. Subjective as hell. Unlike films for example, where grandpa, dad and the kids often love the same movies ... such broad appreciation of musical artists is absolutely unheard of. Maybe because there's lots more music than there is movies - it's easier to produce. Or maybe because movie writers/producers include many different characters in most every film ... usually at least one character can appeal to any demographic segment of the audience.

Keeping all this in mind, I try to remember that the appreciation of different kinds of music is the utmost in subjective taste, and each listener's choices should be respected (unike some Saga haters in this thread). Maybe this attitude is why the playlist I'm listening to now includes, coming up next: Kid Frost, 'Mi Familia'; Malo, 'Suavecito'; Hamiton, Joe Frank & Reynolds, 'Fallin' in Love'; Fleetwod Mac, 'Warm Ways'; Debbie Reynolds, 'Tammy'; Keith Whitley - 'Miami My Amy'; Led Zeppelin - 'Wanton Song'; Donny Iris, 'Ah Leah!'; RHCP, 'Breaking the Girl'; and on and on .... I love every single one of these songs. Now. Let';s see if Hogan can restrain himself from commenting ....

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Old 01-13-2008, 02:45 PM   #2361
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Now. Let';s see if Hogan can restrain himself from commenting ....
Huh? Did you say something Buff?

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Old 01-13-2008, 06:21 PM   #2362
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In any event, I still feel that having pipes is non-essential. I'll bring up Pat Benatar again as an example. Incredible range and all that...but her records were terrible. What good is having a great voice when the material it's applied to is basically unlistenable?
Terrible? Unlistenable?

That's just a statement about your personal taste - not some objective reality.

The millions of fans who bought her records didn't think they were terrible.

"Terrible" is an adjective I would apply to The Pretenders - I would rather listen to Benatar than Chrissy Hynde any day of the week (but that's just my personal taste - I don't expect everyone to agree with me.)
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Old 01-13-2008, 06:22 PM   #2363
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Keeping all this in mind, I try to remember that the appreciation of different kinds of music is the utmost in subjective taste, and each listener's choices should be respected (unike some Saga haters in this thread).
Yep.

Like some German philosopher guy said, "in matters of taste there is no dispute," or something like that.
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Old 01-13-2008, 06:28 PM   #2364
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What good is having a great voice when the material it's applied to is basically unlistenable?
It depends on your aesthetic.

I would rather listen to a really great singer sing a so-so song than listen to a mediocre or bad singer sing a great song (but that's just me.)
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Old 01-13-2008, 06:50 PM   #2365
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Terrible? Unlistenable?
Yes...totally emotionally fraudulent works calculated for a demographic...not a lick of creativity in any of them while having lots (and I mean lots) of laughable, ludicrous moments (my personal fave is the S&M hit "Hit Me With Your Best Shot" followed up immediately by the anit-child abuse song "Hell Is For Children" on Crimes Of Passion and her cover versions are some of the world's absolute worst (Pick 'em here...she butchered everything from The Young Rascals to 40's standards)

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That's just a statement about your personal taste - not some objective reality.
It's my objective opinion....not based upon my personal taste. If my personal taste was the primary deciding factor, then there would be no way in hell I'd have given half the women I listed in my earlier post a first listen. Believe me, I check out everything I encounter and then weigh in on it.

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The millions of fans who bought her records didn't think they were terrible
Most of the record buying public are sold on commercial radio and are of a very young demographic. Sales is never a good way to judge quality...one look at the highest sales chart of any year should be all the proof you'd need of this.

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"Terrible" is an adjective I would apply to The Pretenders - I would rather listen to Benatar than Chrissy Hynde any day of the week (but that's just my personal taste - I don't expect everyone to agree with me.)
And they shouldn't because the first Pretenders album is generally recognized as one of the most brilliant debuts in rock history. There is no publication that I've ever seen that denies that......but I guess it probably sucks because it only contained one mid-level "hit" single and didn't sell as many copies as anything Benatar did at the same time Whatever.
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Old 01-13-2008, 06:55 PM   #2366
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I"ve found i'm much more a fan of songs than artists or bands these days
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Old 01-13-2008, 06:58 PM   #2367
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It depends on your aesthetic.
I suppose....since vocal ability really doesn't mean as much to me as the material it's presented upon, it's fair to say I hold the opposite view here.

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I would rather listen to a really great singer sing a so-so song than listen to a mediocre or bad singer sing a great song (but that's just me.)
Not me...I need a little bit more than that. Give me the great song everytime.
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Old 01-13-2008, 07:04 PM   #2368
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I"ve found i'm much more a fan of songs than artists or bands these days
I've heard this from a couple of people and I dunno....sure, you always tend to run into a song here or there that you take to for one reason or another but I always keep coming around fave artists of mine whether that be thru new releases or touring. They'd have to disappoint me consistantly before I'd give up on them and even then...not totally because one always hopes for a return to whatever it was you saw in them in the first place.
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Old 01-13-2008, 08:09 PM   #2369
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Huh? Did you say something Buff?
I thought at the very least the Debbie Reynolds reference would start you typing in a hurry! ... but I sure am skeptical about trashing the entire discography of as popular an artist as Benatar. I'm not a big Benatar fan, but off the top of my head, 'Promises in the Dark' was a real scorcher.

I've said it before - and I'll say it again in adding my voice to clavi's - I'm more a song man than an artist man. I have a new mp3 player so I've been reshuffling my library lately, and it seems I have LOTS of artists with just one song in there. Not just Saga, but lots of artists like for example Annie Lennox, 4 Non-Blondes, Black Crowes, Breeders, Cher, Danzig, Dishwalla, Doris Day, Fleetwood Mac. Just one song from each indicates I'm not a huge fan of any of them ... BUT ... 'No More I Love Yous' 'What's Goin' On' 'She Talks to Angels' 'Cannonball' 'Believe' 'Mother' 'Counting Blue Cars' 'Secret Love' and 'Warm Ways' are all wonderful songs.





Actually I just found 'Silver Springs' and the entire album 'The Dance,' so scratch Fleetwood Mac from the 1-song list.

But still.

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Old 01-13-2008, 08:21 PM   #2370
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Quote:
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I would rather listen to a really great singer sing a so-so song than listen to a mediocre or bad singer sing a great song (but that's just me.)
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Not me...I need a little bit more than that. Give me the great song everytime.
Gotta side with Hogan here ... as my two posts above at 55 and 56 indicate, I love 'Violet,' 'Story Ends,' 'Still the One,' and 'Cannonball' ... but nobody would ever confuse Courtney Love, Shania Twain, Harriet Wheeler or the Breeders/Pixies chick with Patty Smyth, Pat Benatar or k.d. lang.


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a singer with an incredible voice can give you chills when singing a simple or average tune.
I agree with this ... but does that mean Celine Dion gets you hot?
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Old 01-13-2008, 08:36 PM   #2371
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I thought at the very least the Debbie Reynolds reference would start you typing in a hurry! ... but I sure am skeptical about trashing the entire discography of as popular an artist as Benatar. I'm not a big Benatar fan, but off the top of my head, 'Promises in the Dark' was a real scorcher.
Well, Donny Iris and "Miami My Amy" almost did...but when I decided not to comment on it and just let it go, the queasiness went away.

In regards to Benatar, I can't find much of redeeming value in what I've been subjected to (and I say subjected because she was soooo monsterously popular...many high school/college girlfriends treated her as some sort of voice of the generation or something till 86 or so......then again when she did the covers of old R&B stuff on True Love a title I actually had to look up....her butchering of B.B. King is far and away the most unforgivable thing she's done.) I gave each one a fair shot but she just seemed to get worse as she went on. I fault the material which neither showed off her opera trained pipes very well nor conveyed any of her emotional attachment to it. I felt a lot of it was a going through the motions pose brought on by an outside direction...maybe her manager or something although I can't prove that notion. It sure seemed like it was the case anyways.

Quote:
I've said it before - and I'll say it again in adding my voice to clavi's - I'm more a song man than an artist man. I have a new mp3 player so I've been reshuffling my library lately, and it seems I have LOTS of artists with just one song in there. Not just Saga, but lots of artists like for example Annie Lennox, 4 Non-Blondes, Black Crowes, Breeders, Cher, Danzig, Dishwalla, Doris Day, Fleetwood Mac. Just one song from each indicates I'm not a huge fan of any of them ... BUT ... 'No More I Love Yous' 'What's Goin' On' 'She Talks to Angels' 'Cannonball' 'Believe' 'Mother' 'Counting Blue Cars' 'Secret Love' and 'Warm Ways' are all wonderful songs.

Actually I just found 'Silver Springs' and the entire album 'The Dance,' so scratch Fleetwood Mac from the 1-song list.

But still.
MP3's make the single mix cd's (or tapes if you're still running that media) ipods and the like much easier if you don't care much about the overall sound quality. Some have a problem with them...I generally don't and think they're just fine.
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Old 01-13-2008, 10:46 PM   #2372
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It's my objective opinion....not based upon my personal taste.
When we're talking about art, "objective opinion" is an oxymoron.

Just because Benatar's music isn't "emotionally real" to you doesn't mean it isn't real to others.

As I said, a lot of it depends on how you hear music and what you're listening for.

I'm one of those people who responds more to the sound of a singer's voice and how she or he sings than what he or she is singing about.

I realize that for some listeners just the opposite is true.
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Old 01-13-2008, 10:51 PM   #2373
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I agree with this ... but does that mean Celine Dion gets you hot?
No, because there's also the question of style.

There are a lot of great vocalists and musicians whose abilities I respect but whose style I just don't care for.

I don't like country music, for example, but you will never hear me say that Brent Mason and Albert Lee are "terrible" guitarists.
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Old 01-14-2008, 08:21 AM   #2374
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I've heard this from a couple of people and I dunno....sure, you always tend to run into a song here or there that you take to for one reason or another but I always keep coming around fave artists of mine whether that be thru new releases or touring. They'd have to disappoint me consistantly before I'd give up on them and even then...not totally because one always hopes for a return to whatever it was you saw in them in the first place.
Here's an example, not music related but may convey my POV:

I'm not a Johnny Depp fan (as in, i won't see a movie JUST BECAUSE Depp is in one), but i have found i own several movies that Depp is in.

Look, i love(d) REM, Radiohead, Tool, etc - but each band annoys me. They all have things i just cannot stand at times. Tool's 4min song intros, REM's later material just isn't always as solid, Radiohead can just get boring, etc.

So as it is now, i have bands i may scroll through first - but i have found that I'm not a Rolling stones fan, but i like several of their songs.
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Old 01-15-2008, 12:58 AM   #2375
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Here's an example, not music related but may convey my POV:

I'm not a Johnny Depp fan (as in, i won't see a movie JUST BECAUSE Depp is in one), but i have found i own several movies that Depp is in.

Look, i love(d) REM, Radiohead, Tool, etc - but each band annoys me. They all have things i just cannot stand at times. Tool's 4min song intros, REM's later material just isn't always as solid, Radiohead can just get boring, etc.

So as it is now, i have bands i may scroll through first - but i have found that I'm not a Rolling stones fan, but i like several of their songs.
I understand what you're saying and it makes sense and all....but it really doesn't work too well for us record/CD collecting completists.

Speaking of R.E.M., that band's tanking after Bill Berry left is nothing short of tragic....have you heard any of R.E.M. Live yet? It's pretty sad how far they've fallen...the concert video that comes with the CD is unwatchable in it's constant jumping around.
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