Kizla: Fire Jim Bates!

[fontaine]

I don't like a lot of stuff Kizla writes but I think he makes some interesting points:

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_7557812

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Time to put a stop to Bates
By Mark Kiszla
The Denver Post
Article Last Updated: 11/26/2007 01:20:17 AM MST


Broncos-BearsNov 25:
Broncos collapse at ChicagoCHICAGO — There's no defense for how the Broncos allowed arrogance to dissolve into panic during the monumental collapse of a 37-34 overtime loss to the Chicago Bears.

"Being the football team that we hope we are, you've got to put those games away," Denver coach Mike Shanahan said Sunday.

No duh. And no D.

There are five games remaining on the NFL schedule for Denver. As painful as it will be for everyone at Dove Valley to admit, those five games are the final ones Jim Bates should work as assistant head coach in charge of defense.

This is an experiment that simply has not worked. Let's call the whole thing off, before somebody else gets hurt.

Denver lost against hapless Chicago quarterback Rex Grossman and a sorry bunch of bad news Bears, because the visitors broke far too many rules of common sense.

You don't spit into the wind off Lake Michigan.

You don't tug on superhuman kick-returner Devin Hester's cape.

And you don't mess around with Jim.

You fire him.

Bates must go.

Hired by Shanahan as the answer to Denver's defensive prayers, Bates was the guru who was supposed to bring a new method to the way the Broncos play.

And it's driving all of us stark, raving mad.

This season, the Broncos have allowed a whopping, disturbing and totally unacceptable 295 points in 11 games.

Go ahead. Name all the defenses in the NFL more helpless than the mess Bates has made in Denver.

We'll wait as you look up whether Cleveland or Miami have surrendered more points than the Broncos.

Of course, in the time it takes you to peruse the league stats, Hester will have buzzed Denver with a touchdown on a punt or kickoff. Or both.

"I had the trifecta done on me," said Todd Sauerbrun, who watched, along with 40 friends and family members sitting in the stands at Soldier Field, as he got a punt returned for a TD, a kickoff taken to the house and a punt blocked.

Lost in the blur that was the streaking brilliance of Hester, however, was the fact that Grossman, already benched once this autumn for ineptitude, led Chicago 65 yards in a dozen plays to score a touchdown that evened the game at 34-34 in the final minute of the fourth quarter.

What hurt worse was the touchdown pass was thrown in the face of cornerback Champ Bailey, the best defender on the Broncos. Was there anything he could have done?

"Break it up," Bailey said.

Defensive teammate Dre Bly suggested the better football team allowed itself to get beat single-handedly by Hester.

I must respectfully disagree.

The Broncos cannot stop anyone, as was witnessed as Chicago quickly put Denver out of its misery in overtime. On the defensive side of the ball, I see a brave old warrior in safety John Lynch, a playmaker in defensive end Elvis Dumervil, the usually reliable greatness of Bailey, and not much else worth keeping, unless you want to count the athleticism of D.J. Williams that is being wasted at middle linebacker.

At the same time last year, after dropping a game on Thanksgiving night to Kansas City, Shanahan decided he could not win big with those Denver players. An extreme makeover ensued.

There are seven new starters from the Denver defense that took the field 12 months ago.

Bates was hired to teach the Broncos how to become a dominant defense.

The grade? F.

In 2006, a Denver defense that granted 19 points per game got assistant Larry Coyer fired.

If the Broncos are getting ripped for a touchdown more per game this year, then how can Shanahan justify retaining Bates? San Diego, Detroit and Chicago all have recorded a season high in points scored against the Broncos.

With a record of 5-6, the Broncos are not out of the playoff hunt only because the AFC West is a division without muscle or a clue.

These Broncos in the playoffs?

Do you really want to contemplate what would happen to this defense against Tom Brady and the Patriots on a trip to New England?

Please, let's don't go there. Too depressing.

Here's a more constructive thought.

The Broncos need to go in a whole new direction on defense. Again.

And does anybody really believe Denver can get there, as long as Bates stands in the way?

I'm not as trigger happy as Kizla so I don't know if firing yet another D-Coordinator is the answer. What I do expect though is for the players to play with discipline and do the basics like tackling/blocking and know their assignments. We had that guarantee with Coyer here when his units regulary overachieved beyond their collective talent.

Can we say the same for Bates? I don't think so. I honestly don't know what the answer is. What do people think, is the D showing improvement?

The thing we're doing differently now is we're constantly dedicating more and more bodies to stopping the run so that even though we're not getting gashed by RBs, offenses are now using play action to go over the top and across the middle with success against our DBs because we've usually got 8/9 in the box playing run first.

[TheReverend]

This article really is ridiculous

[epa86b@netzero]

Originally Posted by fontaine

I don't like a lot of stuff Kizla writes but I think he makes some interesting points:

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_7557812


I'm not as trigger happy as Kizla so I don't know if firing yet another D-Coordinator is the answer. What I do expect though is for the players to play with discipline and do the basics like tackling/blocking and know their assignments. We had that guarantee with Coyer here when his units regulary overachieved beyond their collective talent.

Can we say the same for Bates? I don't think so. I honestly don't know what the answer is. What do people think, is the D showing improvement?

The thing we're doing differently now is we're constantly dedicating more and more bodies to stopping the run so that even though we're not getting gashed by RBs, offenses are now using play action to go over the top and across the middle with success against our DBs because we've usually got 8/9 in the box playing run first.

Kizla makes some good points.

I disagree with some of your points. We had guarantees from Coyer of discipline, tackling, and knowing assignments. Don't let our current failures, distort history.

Coyer was great at gameplanning and scheming in the beginning of the year to improve a weakness from the previous year; even if allowed another weakness to pop up in the process. During Coyer time, there were many threads about tackling problems -- specifically about Al Wilson and Gold. How about allowing any corner not named Champ to be torched on outs and outs and ups? How about the times we saw the secondary perplexed after a TD? How EE chasing LT on a zone blitz for a TD? How about little to no pass rush unless there was an all out blitz? How about the lost leads in the 4th Qtr (kinda like what happen this past weekend against CHI)?

Should I continue??

If Bates is fired after this year, it would be a mistake even with his current track record. However, I could see Bates leaving on his own because the players are not that good collectively. They look better on paper then, they perform together. Why are doing better on defensive and special teams with waiver wire pickups? It only takes one missed assigment to make a defense look really BAD.

I can now truly appreciate the good job Coyer did with the players Shanny gave him. Although, Champ made the defensive appear better than they truly were through great play.

If Shanny does not understand after this year, that it all starts and ends in the trenches on offensive and defensive; then he will never realize it.

Us fans will learn early in free argency, what Shanny learned from this year based on how he spends the teams money.

[Northman]

One thing about the last play in regulation is that Champ actually slipped on the play. **** happens. Until Denver sticks with the same players and coaches so that they can build some kind of chemistry its going to be like this every week. To Fire Bates right now would do more damage than good.

[fontaine]

Originally Posted by epa86b@netzero

Coyer was great at gameplanning and scheming in the beginning of the year to improve a weakness from the previous year; even if allowed another weakness to pop up in the process. During Coyer time, there were many threads about tackling problems -- specifically about Al Wilson and Gold. How about allowing any corner not named Champ to be torched on outs and outs and ups? How about the times we saw the secondary perplexed after a TD? How EE chasing LT on a zone blitz for a TD? How about little to no pass rush unless there was an all out blitz? How about the lost leads in the 4th Qtr (kinda like what happen this past weekend against CHI)?

Should I continue??

If Bates is fired after this year, it would be a mistake even with his current track record. However, I could see Bates leaving on his own because the players are not that good collectively. They look better on paper then, they perform together. Why are doing better on defensive and special teams with waiver wire pickups? It only takes one missed assigment to make a defense look really BAD.

I can now truly appreciate the good job Coyer did with the players Shanny gave him. Although, Champ made the defensive appear better than they truly were through great play.

If Shanny does not understand after this year, that it all starts and ends in the trenches on offensive and defensive; then he will never realize it.

Us fans will learn early in free argency, what Shanny learned from this year based on how he spends the teams money.

Your points are well taken and I agree with a lot of what you said.

What I was trying to say (and did it poorly) was that at least with Coyer even when we had subpar talent (remember Walls, Jashon Sykes, Holland, Mario Fatafehi, Spragan - all starters) Coyer got a lot out of those players. I mean we never gave up more than 20 points p/g with Coyer whereas with Bates we've regressed to the 2nd worst D in the league in points. We weren't an elite D but better than average and got to elite level last year until injuries and lack of DL production derailed a great unit.

I'm not calling for Bates' head. Frankly I don't know what to do but surely we can expect the guy who replaced Coyer to produce better results than this?

[TheReverend]

Originally Posted by fontaine

Your points are well taken and I agree with a lot of what you said.

What I was trying to say (and did it poorly) was that at least with Coyer even when we had subpar talent (remember Walls, Jashon Sykes, Holland, Mario Fatafehi, Spragan - all starters) Coyer got a lot out of those players. I mean we never gave up more than 20 points p/g with Coyer whereas with Bates we've regressed to the 2nd worst D in the league in points. We weren't an elite D but better than average and got to elite level last year until injuries and lack of DL production derailed a great unit.

I'm not calling for Bates' head. Frankly I don't know what to do but surely we can expect the guy who replaced Coyer to produce better results than this?

This is a unit that had a starter shot and killed and the heart of it retired with a broken neck. Add the continuity of 3/11 of last years starters, COUNTING Lynch (Champ, Lynch, Gold), and what do you think is going to happen? All sunshine and large breasted nude models jogging down the beach?

[Mediator12]

I agree with the Rev. Terrible article.

No one is going to have any semblance of a quality defense with this current front seven. The only real reason they have potential is the young untested players who show flashes of what it takes.

The LB play has deteriorated the last two years due to an abysmal front four in production and play. The front four has a real pass rusher in Dumervil and little else that other teams fear.

Way too early to lay the blame at the feet of the coach when he has no one to play. This happens next year though....

[chrisp]

The reason we have struggled so much, is that we changed three things all in one offseason:

The coaches
The System/assignments
The starters

Coyer never really changed more than one of those things in any offseason so we had the year-on-year stability that meant we were never so bad that we got ripped apart.....but people complained year on year that our defense was average and couldn't get it done when it really counted.

So the only answer is to let things continue to bed in. The defense is streets ahead of where it was a few weeks ago, and I just cannot pin the blame for the Chicago loss on the defense. Blame special teams for directly and indirectly giving away 21 points and blame the offense for being unable to hang on to the ball and grind out posession drives late in the game to ice the win.

Oh, and Kiszla is a major-league idiot who by definititon cannot say anything that isn't stupid. If you find yourself agreeing with him for a change, please review your position - you may just be having an off day....

[epa86b@netzero]

Originally Posted by fontaine

Your points are well taken and I agree with a lot of what you said.

What I was trying to say (and did it poorly) was that at least with Coyer even when we had subpar talent (remember Walls, Jashon Sykes, Holland, Mario Fatafehi, Spragan - all starters) Coyer got a lot out of those players. I mean we never gave up more than 20 points p/g with Coyer whereas with Bates we've regressed to the 2nd worst D in the league in points. We weren't an elite D but better than average and got to elite level last year until injuries and lack of DL production derailed a great unit.

I'm not calling for Bates' head. Frankly I don't know what to do but surely we can expect the guy who replaced Coyer to produce better results than this?

You make your point and then, contridict it.

Coyer made subpar talent work better collectively but they were never going to be elite.

Bates has had 3 phases already in one year.

Phase 1 - Implement Bate's system with mostly last year's players. Did not work.

Phase 2 - Implement Bate's system with different players at DT and DE. Still did not work.

Phase 3 - Use multiple scheme's with different players at DT and DE. Work in process but the defensive is improving.

What I like about Bates is that from week to week and from play to play, he will make changes to improve the defense via scheme or personnel.

Coyer "seemed" to run with a scheme for a game and the same personnel never giving others a decent chance to produce.

[fontaine]

Originally Posted by epa86b@netzero

You make your point and then, contridict it.

Coyer made subpar talent work better collectively but they were never going to be elite.

Bates has had 3 phases already in one year.

Phase 1 - Implement Bate's system with mostly last year's players. Did not work.

Phase 2 - Implement Bate's system with different players at DT and DE. Still did not work.

Phase 3 - Use multiple scheme's with different players at DT and DE. Work in process but the defensive is improving.

What I like about Bates is that from week to week and from play to play, he will make changes to improve the defense via scheme or personnel.

Coyer "seemed" to run with a scheme for a game and the same personnel never giving others a decent chance to produce.

How do I contradict myself? I said our D only reached elite status early last season when they went how many quarters without surrendering a TD even when the offense was abismal?

As far as Bates having run different schemes? That was pushed on Larry Coyer as well. He had new DLs every season that started off with promise but a couple of weeks into the season and no pressure he had to implement exotic blitz packages and change up the secondary as well to cpmpensate.

My point isn't to rehash the same old tired stuff but I just wanted to know the even though we've had injuries in the past, scrubs at DL we still never gave up this many points? Is it something in coverages, the scheme or what?

[fontaine]

Originally Posted by TheReverend

This is a unit that had a starter shot and killed and the heart of it retired with a broken neck. Add the continuity of 3/11 of last years starters, COUNTING Lynch (Champ, Lynch, Gold), and what do you think is going to happen? All sunshine and large breasted nude models jogging down the beach?

We've had hardly any continuity on Defense before but thanks for contributing with the same generic bs.

[-Slap-]

Worst linebackers in football. I defy anyone to field a competent defense with linebackers this bad. Even the 94 Broncos, with a statuelike Mecklenburg in the middle and a couple gnats like Mike Croel and Elijah Alexander on the outside, had a better LB unit.

[epa86b@netzero]

Originally Posted by fontaine

How do I contradict myself? I said our D only reached elite status early last season when they went how quarters without surrendering at TD even when the offense was abismal?

As far as Bates having run different schemes? That was pushed on Larry Coyer as well. He had new DLs every season that started off with promise but a couple of weeks into the season and no pressure he had to implement exotic blitz packages and change up the secondary as well to cpmpensate.

My point isn't to rehash the same old tired stuff but I just wanted to know the even though we've had injuries in the past, scrubs at DL we still never gave up this many points? Is it something in coverages, the scheme or what?

Last year's early success, i believe was more about who we played and less about how we played. The DL were still subpar at the beginning of last year and at the end. Please don't take my statement about contradiction personal.

My guess on the large amount of points is: 1. it is skew due to two blow outs where the offensive score only 3 and 7 points; thus, there did not help control the ball and field position, and 2. defensive scheme and personnel at that time.

[eddie mac]

Originally Posted by -Slap-

Worst linebackers in football. I defy anyone to field a competent defense with linebackers this bad. Even the 94 Broncos, with a statuelike Mecklenburg in the middle and a couple gnats like Mike Croel and Elijah Alexander on the outside, had a better LB unit.

I used to think this LB unit was below average even when Al was in there. It's ****ing woeful now. Thing is everyone in the media was blowing their horns stating "Very fast unit" and it was rated as one of the best in the league. Who the hell made those assumptions and have they ever watched the Broncos play.

Take the Bears game as an example. Everytime the ball went near Gold, the commentators stated "Gold this, Gold that, he's great in coverage"

WTF were they talking about He's bloody awful in coverage.

[-Slap-]

Possibly because Gold and Webster stage their own miniature ticker tape parade for each other every time one of them makes a routine tackle eight yards downfield.

[jmz313]

Lots of issues, not many answers.

I will suggest that, in my opinion the constant from the coyer years to this year has been a regression in fundamentals. tackling was sloppy last year and now it looks hilarious due to the missing assignments on top of poor tackling. 1 yd gains are now 7 yarders and teh DBs are getting worn down and a less disiplined and biting on play fakes.

[TheReverend]

Originally Posted by -Slap-

Possibly because Gold and Webster stage their own miniature ticker tape parade for each other every time one of them makes a routine tackle eight yards downfield.

Oh please... and what were the available options? Pay a boatload of money to Adalius Thomas? Still crying about Urlacher and Willis? If Willis were available it would've been a done deal, he wasn't. The end. You're some great LB prophet huh? I can call Dan Connor the next great LB and then monitor every progame and yell "I TOLD YOU SO" as loud as possible on an internet forum until a handful of morons come trailing behind.

[epa86b@netzero]

Originally Posted by TheReverend

Oh please... and what were the available options? Pay a boatload of money to Adalius Thomas? Still crying about Urlacher and Willis? If Willis were available it would've been a done deal, he wasn't. The end. You're some great LB prophet huh? I can call Dan Connor the next great LB and then monitor every progame and yell "I TOLD YOU SO" as loud as possible on an internet forum until a handful of morons come trailing behind.

I think Slap means. Why waste your energy on rountine tackles when you have cheerleaders to do it? Gold and Webster need to react like they have made a tackle before and not act like it is a big deal. For me, it is irritating to watch their theatrics after a 1st or 2nd down tackle.

[TheReverend]

Originally Posted by epa86b@netzero

I think Slap means. Why waste your energy on rountine tackles when you have cheerleaders to do it? Gold and Webster need to react like they have made a tackle before and not act like it is a big deal. For me, it is irritating to watch their theatrics after a 1st or 2nd down tackle.

Then just explain why Gold and Websters names are the only ones included?

[epa86b@netzero]

Originally Posted by TheReverend

Then just explain why Gold and Websters names are the only ones included?

I cannot say whether Slap has other motives or not.

However, every week I see mainly Gold and Webster celebrating 1st and 2nd down tackles and not always for yardage loses. To me, their actions are perplexing actions.

[TheReverend]

Originally Posted by epa86b@netzero

I cannot say whether Slap has other motives or not.

However, every week I see mainly Gold and Webster celebrating 1st and 2nd down tackles and not always for yardage loses. To me, their actions are perplexing actions.

I've easily seen DJ do it more than Gold... and usually for not even being the first or second or third person there. Webster on the other hand... do we really need to nitpick a blatant stop-gap?

[Mediator12]

You guys must not watch much football outside of DEN

The celebrate the routine play BS has been going on everywhere for years. I absolutely hate the self serving nature of it. Nothing says "wrong mentality" like celebrating an average play to me. Look at all the missed tackles the NFL has spawned over the years. Look at all the missed plays on offense. It is almost like, "Hey look, I did not screw up this time! Woohoo!"

What makes it worse is when you actually have guys celebrating making "bad" plays. If you tackle someone 8 yards downfield its not a success most times. However, watching joe average LB jump up and make all kinds of stupid motions like he did something is the most absurd thing I have ever seen.

It also adds insult to injury in DEN's case as they are not an effective defense. Any celebrating before the end of the game is quite anoying to most fans.

[epa86b@netzero]

Originally Posted by Mediator12

You guys must not watch much football outside of DEN

The celebrate the routine play BS has been going on everywhere for years. I absolutely hate the self serving nature of it. Nothing says "wrong mentality" like celebrating an average play to me. Look at all the missed tackles the NFL has spawned over the years. Look at all the missed plays on offense. It is almost like, "Hey look, I did not screw up this time! Woohoo!"

What makes it worse is when you actually have guys celebrating making "bad" plays. If you tackle someone 8 yards downfield its not a success most times. However, watching joe average LB jump up and make all kinds of stupid motions like he did something is the most absurd thing I have ever seen.

It also adds insult to injury in DEN's case as they are not an effective defense. Any celebrating before the end of the game is quite anoying to most fans.

I agree. Generally, I don't critique the actions and behavior of non-Broncos because I don't have a stake in their actions unless they do something incredible (good or bad).

[TheReverend]

Originally Posted by Mediator12

You guys must not watch much football outside of DEN

The celebrate the routine play BS has been going on everywhere for years. I absolutely hate the self serving nature of it. Nothing says "wrong mentality" like celebrating an average play to me. Look at all the missed tackles the NFL has spawned over the years. Look at all the missed plays on offense. It is almost like, "Hey look, I did not screw up this time! Woohoo!"

What makes it worse is when you actually have guys celebrating making "bad" plays. If you tackle someone 8 yards downfield its not a success most times. However, watching joe average LB jump up and make all kinds of stupid motions like he did something is the most absurd thing I have ever seen.

It also adds insult to injury in DEN's case as they are not an effective defense. Any celebrating before the end of the game is quite anoying to most fans.

I celebrate much more than any Den player has and I'm only watching the game.

[Broncomutt]

Pat: Hi, welcome to Dove Valley! You must be the new defensive coordinator.

Scapegoat: Thank you Mr. Bowlen. Nice place!

Pat:Yes it is, we certainly take pride in every facet of the organization. Over there is our state of the art weight room, there is the coaches lounge, this is where the cheerleaders rehearse (nudge)...and these...these are my pride and joy! The Super Bowl trophies.

Scapegoat: Very nice. They are exactly like the one I helped ______ win in 200_. And you maintain them so well.....

Pat: Ah! Don't touch! This one's for John! Now step into my office.

Scapegoat: Yes sir.

Pat: Now here is the contract and terms of your employment. Feel free to read it over.

Scapegoat: Um...that's a hefty sized contract. May I ask just how many pag-

Pat: One thousand seven hundred and ninety-three. Please initial each page as you read it.

Scapegoat: Oh, I see.

Pat: Mento?

Scapegoat: No thank you.

Six hours and 27 minutes later........

Pat:....and that's why I wore the thing. It really is quite warm...and was considered very stylish in many parts of Canada in those days. You realize just how cold Cleveland can be in January?

Scapegoat: No sir. Never had the opportunity. Most of my January's were spent in NFC cities. I have finished reading this and everything looks in place. Do I sign here?

Pat: Yes please. Thank you and welcome aboard! We're looking forward to seeing you whip this defense into shape!

Scapegoat: I do to Mr. Bowlen! We've got a couple good players around which to build it. I'll be here first thing in the morning to get to work!

Pat: Did you see the part about you being the assistant head coach? You get to tell your kids that you're a head coach! On paper anyway. That was Mike's idea. Really makes his subordinates feel like they're equals!

Scapegoat: Um...yes, that's a nice touch! Now if you'll excuse me, my wife and I-

Pat: Whoa, we're not done yet. You haven't looked over this other contract.

Scapegoat: Other contract?

Pat: Yes, these are the terms and conditions of your severance.

Scapegoat: My....severance....?

Pat: Yes, Mike and I talked and we felt it would just be best if the defensive coordinators signed both contracts at the same time. Streamline things, heh?

Scapegoat: But..

Pat: Just a formality really....until the end of the season that is. Mike and I felt it would be best if all the new defensive coordinators new why they were being fired before they get hired. Really smooths things out.

Scapegoat: I'm still not following-

Pat: You do realize that at the end of the season you will be culpable for all defensive woes. It was on pages 897 through 942.

Scapegoat: That sounds fair enough but....

Pat: As well as being responsible for any offensive and special teams miscommunications.....

Scapegoat: Now that doesn't sound....

Pat:....poor drafting, player suspensions, home losses, players missing meetings......

Scapegoat: Now wait just a minute!

Pat:....injuries, penalties, poor clock management, failed challenges.....

Scapegoat: This is ridiculous!

Pat:....field conditions, lame end zone celebrations, the weather....

Scapegoat: I don't think this is-

Pat:...teen riots on Larrimer St., Randy Cross and the East Coast Bias that makes everyone of our fans feel inferior!

Scapegoat: Mr. Bowlen, I must say this is very odd.

Pat: Now when you've read it over, just sign here. Note thatyou can call me anytime if you need anything. At night you can find me at Mike's house. I sleep curled up at the foot of his bed.