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Old 04-12-2007, 03:51 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco View Post
Nature will balances itself out. No need to worry
Hordes of genetically similar bees transported around a continent ain't natural.

Natural selection of agriculturally important species has long since become a nonfactor.

As such natural balances cannot be depended on, particularly when world food stores are the issue.

Though admittedly, the grains are not particularly vulnerable here.
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Old 04-12-2007, 03:56 AM   #77
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Who's going to determine who lives and who dies?
Well if it's on the scale of a few generations the easy solution would be just to have two kids. That wouldn't completely replace losses and in several generations stabilize and eventually shrink populations...

You are getting that in developed countries now with a cylinder and soon to be inverted pyramid of age demographics (ie increasing number of old fogies and fewer youngins).

Its the developing world that hasn't cottoned on that children are a liability.
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Old 04-12-2007, 09:37 AM   #78
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Who's going to determine who lives and who dies?
Just reduce the birthrate from here on out.
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Old 04-12-2007, 11:42 AM   #79
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Nature will balances itself out. No need to worry
Humans have been ignoring those rules for decades now. It's catching up to us.
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Old 04-12-2007, 11:50 AM   #80
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Because al gore says so?


You're one of those dolts who will defy the truth based on politics aren't you? Or do you fancy yourself a counter-culture individualist who makes his own rules? You're a real tough guy, you can handle this "global warming" charade. You're a bad-ass free-thinker, we get it.
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Old 04-12-2007, 02:13 PM   #81
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They've learned to construct simple sails which they mount on icebergs, and they've mastered use of a sextant.
why you bull****ting, i was listening to a guy on th radio that claimed his oprganization was going to teach animals to use weapons to defend themselves. as detailed as "Navy SEALS training seals in armed and unarmed combat" i cant make this **** up.
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Old 04-16-2007, 02:50 PM   #82
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Are mobile phones wiping out our bees?
Scientists claim radiation from handsets are to blame for mysterious 'colony collapse' of bees

By Geoffrey Lean and Harriet Shawcross
Published: 15 April 2007
It seems like the plot of a particularly far-fetched horror film. But some scientists suggest that our love of the mobile phone could cause massive food shortages, as the world's harvests fail.

They are putting forward the theory that radiation given off by mobile phones and other hi-tech gadgets is a possible answer to one of the more bizarre mysteries ever to happen in the natural world - the abrupt disappearance of the bees that pollinate crops. Late last week, some bee-keepers claimed that the phenomenon - which started in the US, then spread to continental Europe - was beginning to hit Britain as well.

The theory is that radiation from mobile phones interferes with bees' navigation systems, preventing the famously homeloving species from finding their way back to their hives. Improbable as it may seem, there is now evidence to back this up.

Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) occurs when a hive's inhabitants suddenly disappear, leaving only queens, eggs and a few immature workers, like so many apian Mary Celestes. The vanished bees are never found, but thought to die singly far from home. The parasites, wildlife and other bees that normally raid the honey and pollen left behind when a colony dies, refuse to go anywhere near the abandoned hives.

The alarm was first sounded last autumn, but has now hit half of all American states. The West Coast is thought to have lost 60 per cent of its commercial bee population, with 70 per cent missing on the East Coast.

CCD has since spread to Germany, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece. And last week John Chapple, one of London's biggest bee-keepers, announced that 23 of his 40 hives have been abruptly abandoned.

Other apiarists have recorded losses in Scotland, Wales and north-west England, but the Department of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs insisted: "There is absolutely no evidence of CCD in the UK."

The implications of the spread are alarming. Most of the world's crops depend on pollination by bees. Albert Einstein once said that if the bees disappeared, "man would have only four years of life left".

No one knows why it is happening. Theories involving mites, pesticides, global warming and GM crops have been proposed, but all have drawbacks.

German research has long shown that bees' behaviour changes near power lines.

Now a limited study at Landau University has found that bees refuse to return to their hives when mobile phones are placed nearby. Dr Jochen Kuhn, who carried it out, said this could provide a "hint" to a possible cause.

Dr George Carlo, who headed a massive study by the US government and mobile phone industry of hazards from mobiles in the Nineties, said: "I am convinced the possibility is real."

The case against handsets

Evidence of dangers to people from mobile phones is increasing. But proof is still lacking, largely because many of the biggest perils, such as cancer, take decades to show up.

Most research on cancer has so far proved inconclusive. But an official Finnish study found that people who used the phones for more than 10 years were 40 per cent more likely to get a brain tumour on the same side as they held the handset.

Equally alarming, blue-chip Swedish research revealed that radiation from mobile phones killed off brain cells, suggesting that today's teenagers could go senile in the prime of their lives.

Studies in India and the US have raised the possibility that men who use mobile phones heavily have reduced sperm counts. And, more prosaically, doctors have identified the condition of "text thumb", a form of RSI from constant texting.

Professor Sir William Stewart, who has headed two official inquiries, warned that children under eight should not use mobiles and made a series of safety recommendations, largely ignored by ministers.
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Old 04-16-2007, 03:08 PM   #83
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Yeah but if cell phone signals have been used for the better part of 10 years, then why now?
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Old 04-16-2007, 03:58 PM   #84
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Yeah but if cell phone signals have been used for the better part of 10 years, then why now?

I think if you look back a decade, the areas of coverage were hit and miss, whereas now the areas which do not have coverage are limited to isolated areas.
Also the sheer number of cell phones today compared to ten years ago would make some sort of impact.
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Old 04-16-2007, 04:06 PM   #85
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I think if you look back a decade, the areas of coverage were hit and miss, whereas now the areas which do not have coverage are limited to isolated areas.
Also the sheer number of cell phones today compared to ten years ago would make some sort of impact.
Ok some questions/points:

Cell phones use radio waves, but the atmosphere has been saturated with radio waves for over a century. Why now?

The cell bands are just a tiny portion of the radio spectrum and because of the cellular stricture are lower in power than other radio sources that have been around for decades such as AM/FM radio, VHF/UHF TV, amateur and citizens bands, VHF aircraft radios, short wave, VHF ground radios used by police, and fire, commercial band radios, and let us not forget the huge and powerful military radio systems including megawatt radars. These have all been operating for our entire lifetimes, yet the bee die-off has only occurred in the last year. So is radio the culprit?
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Old 04-16-2007, 04:21 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by claviculasolomonis View Post
Ok some questions/points:

Cell phones use radio waves, but the atmosphere has been saturated with radio waves for over a century. Why now?

The cell bands are just a tiny portion of the radio spectrum and because of the cellular stricture are lower in power than other radio sources that have been around for decades such as AM/FM radio, VHF/UHF TV, amateur and citizens bands, VHF aircraft radios, short wave, VHF ground radios used by police, and fire, commercial band radios, and let us not forget the huge and powerful military radio systems including megawatt radars. These have all been operating for our entire lifetimes, yet the bee die-off has only occurred in the last year. So is radio the culprit?

Just my 5 cents worth. I know in the Rocky Mtn Area the business of Cell tower erection and construction has been an gold mine. One of the managers who used to work for my company moved on to a company which specializes in Cell tower construction, and he has been busier than a one legged man in an ass kicking contest!
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Old 04-16-2007, 04:45 PM   #87
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Just my 5 cents worth. I know in the Rocky Mtn Area the business of Cell tower erection and construction has been an gold mine. One of the managers who used to work for my company moved on to a company which specializes in Cell tower construction, and he has been busier than a one legged man in an ass kicking contest!
I just think it's too soon to pin it on one thing -
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Old 04-16-2007, 04:51 PM   #88
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I just think it's too soon to pin it on one thing -

Better "pin" it on something fast, unless we have a "better" way of polinating in the works.

We are already exhibiting the classical "head in the sand response" to global warming, might as well do the same with this "minor" issue.
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Old 04-16-2007, 04:55 PM   #89
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Thats why I am leery of global warming. You can say 10,000 scientists agree global warming is the result of mankind. Another 10,000 will say mankind is not. We have only been watching the climate and weather for less then 60 years, and we get it wrong all the time. How can you legitimately trust people who comment or study weather? They cant get it right 2 days ahead of time, but we are going to listen to them on what will happen 100 years from now?


Good point...but we (humans) can't be helping things any!!
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Old 04-16-2007, 05:22 PM   #90
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Better "pin" it on something fast, unless we have a "better" way of polinating in the works.

We are already exhibiting the classical "head in the sand response" to global warming, might as well do the same with this "minor" issue.
Ya, or maybe the missing bee issue is tied to the freaky weather. Or maybe it's tied to the mite that carry's a parisite that kills bees.....
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Old 04-16-2007, 08:43 PM   #91
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Yeah but if cell phone signals have been used for the better part of 10 years, then why now?
I think it unlikely given Europe FOLLOWED the US here...if anything that should be the other way around given their generally higher degree of wireless access and higher populations, particularly the UK.

I guess Japan or South Korea would be the obvious candidates...do they have massively decreased bee populations?
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Old 04-16-2007, 08:48 PM   #92
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Good point...but we (humans) can't be helping things any!!
I SINCERELY doubt an equal number of climatologists believe humans aren't a source of global warming.

And the straw man of not being able to predict weather 2 days ahead but climate 100 years from now is bogus.

You don't NEED to know what the weather is on any given day to affect the changes scientists are predicting...just as you don't NEED to predict the day a specific person will die from not wearing a seatbelt, just that someone will.
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Old 04-16-2007, 09:04 PM   #93
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and so? Scientists still dont agree on the causes of global warming. Thats the point. Not that global warming happens, but what is the primary generator of climate change.



Go ahead and put your head in the sand with the rest of the Fox newsers....anyway it isn't going to matter. It's too late and we are to slow acting. While all the other countries in the world are raising MPG for cars and cutting pollution The U.S. just says it's going to cost too much....yeah whatever, see you all in hell.
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Old 04-16-2007, 09:06 PM   #94
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You're one of those dolts who will defy the truth based on politics aren't you? Or do you fancy yourself a counter-culture individualist who makes his own rules? You're a real tough guy, you can handle this "global warming" charade. You're a bad-ass free-thinker, we get it.

He is the most conservative gay man I have ever seen... errrr. read anyway.
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Old 04-16-2007, 10:31 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by sirhcyennek81 View Post
Thats why I am leery of global warming. You can say 10,000 scientists agree global warming is the result of mankind. Another 10,000 will say mankind is not. We have only been watching the climate and weather for less then 60 years, and we get it wrong all the time. How can you legitimately trust people who comment or study weather? They cant get it right 2 days ahead of time, but we are going to listen to them on what will happen 100 years from now?


Add to all that, not one of them can confirm or deny that any global warming is or isn't part of the natural cycle for the planet. There once was an ocean shoreline where Denver is today. Now it's all our fault.

Ben
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Old 04-17-2007, 12:42 AM   #96
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I think it unlikely given Europe FOLLOWED the US here...if anything that should be the other way around given their generally higher degree of wireless access and higher populations, particularly the UK.

I guess Japan or South Korea would be the obvious candidates...do they have massively decreased bee populations?
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Eur...p=mss&ei=UTF-8


Europe's bee population seems hurt as well


But asia is the origin of a mite that is causing some problems:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease...e#Varroa_mites
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Old 04-17-2007, 03:14 AM   #97
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The implications of the spread are alarming. Most of the world's crops depend on pollination by bees. Albert Einstein once said that if the bees disappeared, "man would have only four years of life left".
Well that's nice. I guess we better win another Superbowl pretty quick.
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Old 04-23-2007, 03:41 AM   #98
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I just think it's too soon to pin it on one thing -
We should just wait a year or so and see if all the bees die. Then we will know.

Here is another story. This is big. Bees are like the Corals of the land. If they go there will be a massive domino affect.

Vanishing honeybees mystify scientists

Billions of bees have mysteriously vanished since late last year in the U.S.
Disappearing bees have also been reported in Europe and Brazil
One-third of the U.S. diet depends on pollination, mostly by honeybees
Some beekeepers are losing 50 percent of their bees to the disorder



WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- Go to work, come home.

Go to work, come home.

Go to work -- and vanish without a trace.

Billions of bees have done just that, leaving the crop fields they are supposed to pollinate, and scientists are mystified about why.

The phenomenon was first noticed late last year in the United States, where honeybees are used to pollinate $15 billion worth of fruits, nuts and other crops annually. Disappearing bees have also been reported in Europe and Brazil.

Commercial beekeepers would set their bees near a crop field as usual and come back in two or three weeks to find the hives bereft of foraging worker bees, with only the queen and the immature insects remaining. Whatever worker bees survived were often too weak to perform their tasks.

If the bees were dying of pesticide poisoning or freezing, their bodies would be expected to lie around the hive. And if they were absconding because of some threat -- which they have been known to do -- they wouldn't leave without the queen.

Since about one-third of the U.S. diet depends on pollination and most of that is performed by honeybees, this constitutes a serious problem, according to Jeff Pettis of the U.S. Agricultural Research Service.

"They're the heavy lifters of agriculture," Pettis said of honeybees. "And the reason they are is they're so mobile and we can rear them in large numbers and move them to a crop when it's blooming."

Honeybees are used to pollinate some of the tastiest parts of the American diet, Pettis said, including cherries, blueberries, apples, almonds, asparagus and macadamia nuts.

"It's not the staples," he said. "If you can imagine eating a bowl of oatmeal every day with no fruit on it, that's what it would be like" without honeybee pollination.

Pettis and other experts are gathering outside Washington for a two-day workshop starting on Monday to pool their knowledge and come up with a plan of action to combat what they call colony collapse disorder.

"What we're describing as colony collapse disorder is the rapid loss of adult worker bees from the colony over a very short period of time, at a time in the season when we wouldn't expect a rapid die-off of workers: late fall and early spring," Pettis said.

Small workers in a supersize society
The problem has prompted a congressional hearing, a report by the National Research Council and a National Pollinator Week set for June 24-30 in Washington, but so far no clear idea of what is causing it.

"The main hypotheses are based on the interpretation that the disappearances represent disruptions in orientation behavior and navigation," said May Berenbaum, an insect ecologist at the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign.

There have been other fluctuations in the number of honeybees, going back to the 1880s, where there were "mysterious disappearances without bodies just as we're seeing now, but never at this magnitude," Berenbaum said in a telephone interview.

In some cases, beekeepers are losing 50 percent of their bees to the disorder, with some suffering even higher losses. One beekeeper alone lost 40,000 bees, Pettis said. Nationally, some 27 states have reported the disorder, with billions of bees simply gone.

Some beekeepers supplement their stocks with bees imported from Australia, said beekeeper Jeff Anderson, whose business keeps him and his bees traveling between Minnesota and California. Honeybee hives are rented out to growers to pollinate their crops, and beekeepers move around as the growing seasons change.

Honeybees are not the only pollinators whose numbers are dropping. Other animals that do this essential job -- non-honeybees, wasps, flies, beetles, birds and bats -- have decreasing populations as well. But honeybees are the big actors in commercial pollination efforts.

"One reason we're in this situation is this is a supersize society -- we tend to equate small with insignificant," Berenbaum said. "I'm sorry but that's not true in biology. You have to be small to get into the flower and deliver the pollen.

"Without that critical act, there's no fruit. And no technology has been invented that equals, much less surpasses, insect pollinators."
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Old 04-23-2007, 07:29 AM   #99
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My dad grew his teeth in the dirt, but he was self educated and knew about genetics.

He worried about the danger of genetic replication, especially in hybrid corn strains.

Bringing in a non specific genetic strain is always kinda dangerous. It's a matter of genetic diversity. If one breed of bees has a problem, another might not. I seriously doubt it's the genetically altered crops. It's possibble, but unlikely.

Pesticides and herbicides are not as widely used today. Bo Weevils in cotton and Aphids still are pests tho. They need to find the bees to see if they are diseased, or poisioned. Sounds like they vanish like some UFO abduction or something. I'm sure they check the field and aroud the hive. Damned if I know. I am thinking disease by genetic sigularity.
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Old 04-23-2007, 09:33 AM   #100
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We should just wait a year or so and see if all the bees die. Then we will know.

The air waves have been saturated with radio waves - and i'm sure brazil has less radio infrastructure than we do - so guess what - i think the radio waves are a misnomer -

Or maybe this is what's going on for some reason:

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/gen/pa...ml?theme=light
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