Did God Give Israel to the Jews?

[Rohirrim]

Having grown up in a (basically) Christian tradition, I have never really questioned any of this stuff. It was a basic, cultural mythology that you just accepted - God gave the land of Israel to the Jews. Lately, it occurs to me that the number one problem the U.S. has in the ME is its constant support of this premise - basically, that God gave Israel to the Jews and that Israel should be a Jewish state. Isn't that concept antithetical to everything the U.S. stands for? After all, our national motto is E Pluribus Unum, from the many, one.

We abhor the idea of turning the U.S. into a "Christian" state. Our Constitution is about as anti-theocratic as a document could be. We are currently involved in various stages of armed struggle against movements in the world that wish to declare certain regions of the world as "Muslim" states. How can we say to people, "We oppose the idea of a Muslim state," or "We oppose the idea of theocracy - in principle," when we support Israel more than any other country on earth?

I'm not questioning the existence of Israel, nor to Jews living in Israel - they have lived there for many centuries, mostly in peace with their Arab neighbors. I think the problem arose when that separate idea, the founding idea of Zionism, arose; That Israel should be a distinctly "Jewish" state - thereby disenfranchising all non-Jews who had also lived in that region for a very long time.

[Rohirrim]

I don't know how this ended up here. Would a mod move this to the War and Politics forum? Please?

[Old Dude]

Your wish is my command.

[alkemical]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

Having grown up in a (basically) Christian tradition, I have never really questioned any of this stuff. It was a basic, cultural mythology that you just accepted - God gave the land of Israel to the Jews. Lately, it occurs to me that the number one problem the U.S. has in the ME is its constant support of this premise - basically, that God gave Israel to the Jews and that Israel should be a Jewish state. Isn't that concept antithetical to everything the U.S. stands for? After all, our national motto is E Pluribus Unum, from the many, one.

We abhor the idea of turning the U.S. into a "Christian" state. Our Constitution is about as anti-theocratic as a document could be. We are currently involved in various stages of armed struggle against movements in the world that wish to declare certain regions of the world as "Muslim" states. How can we say to people, "We oppose the idea of a Muslim state," or "We oppose the idea of theocracy - in principle," when we support Israel more than any other country on earth?

I'm not questioning the existence of Israel, nor to Jews living in Israel - they have lived there for many centuries, mostly in peace with their Arab neighbors. I think the problem arose when that separate idea, the founding idea of Zionism, arose; That Israel should be a distinctly "Jewish" state - thereby disenfranchising all non-Jews who had also lived in that region for a very long time.

Yeah how does god give land to one peoples?

[RaiderH8r]

Originally Posted by claviculasolomonis

Yeah how does god give land to one peoples?

God didn't give it to one peoples, he gave it to one person....me. I'm just leasing the land and taking the depreciation for it. I'm a little pissed that God gave me the only plot over there without a drop of oil under it. WTF? I thought I was the chosen?

[OregonBronco]

Originally Posted by RaiderH8r

God didn't give it to one peoples, he gave it to one person....me. I'm just leasing the land and taking the depreciation for it. I'm a little pissed that God gave me the only plot over there without a drop of oil under it. WTF? I thought I was the chosen?

WHAT?? God said he gave that land to ME. Dammit...I hate when deities double-book.

[Atlas]

Did the cow jump over the moon?

[Garcia Bronco]

I don't think that our support of Isreal has much to do with that premise.

[RaiderH8r]

Originally Posted by OregonBronco

WHAT?? God said he gave that land to ME. Dammit...I hate when deities double-book.

He did give it to ME, not you. You are you, I am me, but you are not me but I can be you so that I can stay me. So you see, with my incontrovertable logic I am always me, even when I'm you. You.....you'll have nothing and like it. (Hat tip to Caddyshack).

[RaiderH8r]

Originally Posted by Atlas

Did the cow jump over the moon?

I don't know about that. What I do know is that according to all the leading experts I am a special, gifted, and unique person fit to run the world because of my intelligence and sensitivity. To be fair though, the only expert I checked with is my Grandma. But she's still cool though, and an expert so there's clearly no dispute to be made regarding my assertion of my awesomeness.

[Atlas]

Originally Posted by RaiderH8r

I don't know about that. What I do know is that according to all the leading experts I am a special, gifted, and unique person fit to run the world because of my intelligence and sensitivity. To be fair though, the only expert I checked with is my Grandma. But she's still cool though, and an expert so there's clearly no dispute to be made regarding my assertion of my awesomeness.

I'd rather have you and your boomstick in the Oval Office than what is in there now.

[OregonBronco]

Originally Posted by RaiderH8r

He did give it to ME, not you. You are you, I am me, but you are not me but I can be you so that I can stay me. So you see, with my incontrovertable logic I am always me, even when I'm you. You.....you'll have nothing and like it. (Hat tip to Caddyshack).

Truly, you have a dizzying intellect. (Hat tip to Princess Bride)

[RaiderH8r]

Originally Posted by Atlas

I'd rather have you and your boomstick in the Oval Office than what is in there now.

I would too. But to be fair, I'd be better than anybody, and that ain't just my Granny talkin. I consulted my Mom on that one...so....that's sound support.

I'd mount that baby right behind my desk with the following quote in nice big letters to be read from far away:

Now listen up, you primitive screwheads. See this? This... is my boomstick! The 12-gauge double-barreled Remington. S-Mart's top of the line. You can find this in the sporting goods department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Retails for about $109.95. It's got a walnut stock, cobalt blue steel, and a hair trigger. That's right. Shop smart. Shop S-Mart. You GOT that?

[Atlas]

Originally Posted by RaiderH8r

I would too. But to be fair, I'd be better than anybody, and that ain't just my Granny talkin. I consulted my Mom on that one...so....that's sound support.

I'd mount that baby right behind my desk with the following quote in nice big letters to be read from far away:

Now listen up, you primitive screwheads. See this? This... is my boomstick! The 12-gauge double-barreled Remington. S-Mart's top of the line. You can find this in the sporting goods department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Retails for about $109.95. It's got a walnut stock, cobalt blue steel, and a hair trigger. That's right. Shop smart. Shop S-Mart. You GOT that?

You got my vote. You could walk up to Pelosi and say "Gimmme some sugar baby."

[RaiderH8r]

Originally Posted by Atlas

You got my vote. You could walk up to Pelosi and say "Gimmme some sugar baby."

I think I'd go with "Baby, you got real ugly."
I don't know if there is a lady in Congress that I would need some sugar from...Maybe Stephanie Herseth from SD. Any suggestions out there? We could have a Members of Congress ILF...MOCILF thing going.

My first act upon swearing in would be to put Al Davis on top of my most wanted. I'd issue a deck of cards with Al's ugly mug on each one and death squads of trained vampire killers would be dispatched to send that undead soul sucking devil back to the pits of Hades where he belongs. This much I vow.

[Old Dude]

Maybe there was some confusion in the Title Search process and He inadvertently gave it to several different groups.

I'm sure that whatever divine staff member was responsible for that has long since been fired.

[W*GS]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

Having grown up in a (basically) Christian tradition, I have never really questioned any of this stuff. It was a basic, cultural mythology that you just accepted - God gave the land of Israel to the Jews. Lately, it occurs to me that the number one problem the U.S. has in the ME is its constant support of this premise - basically, that God gave Israel to the Jews and that Israel should be a Jewish state.

It hasn't always been quite like that - see the article I posted some time back about the Suez crisis.

And the US has been picking sides in the ME since before Israel even existed - witness the deal FDR struck with Saudi Arabia where we protect them in return for their oil.

[Atlas]

Originally Posted by RaiderH8r

I think I'd go with "Baby, you got real ugly."
I don't know if there is a lady in Congress that I would need some sugar from...Maybe Stephanie Herseth from SD. Any suggestions out there? We could have a Members of Congress ILF...MOCILF thing going.

My first act upon swearing in would be to put Al Davis on top of my most wanted. I'd issue a deck of cards with Al's ugly mug on each one and death squads of trained vampire killers would be dispatched to send that undead soul sucking devil back to the pits of Hades where he belongs. This much I vow.

WOW, She is hot, She is a democrat and she is from S.D. that's amazing. I'm in love.







I'd leave my wife for her. I need a good democrat hot looking wife.

www.fantasycongress.com

[yavoon]

no, I'm pretty sure that was the UN.

[mhgaffney]

For many centuries there was a Jewish presence in Palestine and in many other Arab nations. Islam recognizes Jews as the people of the book (bible) and they have always had a certain status and respect for this reason.

The tolerance of Muslims was never perfect -- but it was a lot more enlightened than in the Christian world.

In many Arab nations the Jews spoke Arabic in preference to Hebrew -- and these Jews were also assimilated culturally to some extent. They were generally prosperous and content. There were no pogroms in the Arab world to match what happened in Russia, for example, under the Czars.

Enter Zionism and the whole equation changed.

If it is true that the Zionists in Germany made a deal with Britain during WW I -- at a point when Germany had all but won the war -- to turn the tide by bringing America in on the side of Britain in return for Palestine -- this would explain a great many things that have happened since.

It would explain the Balfour Declaration -- Britain's promise during WW I to create a Jewish settler colony in Palestine -- and it would explain the hostility of the German people to the Jews. Of this happened, then obviously the Germans felt betrayed. It would also explain why Britain reneged on its promise to -- I think it was King Hussein of Saudi Arabia -- but correct me if the name is wrong -- to liberate the Arab naton after the war if they would help the Brits defeat Turkey in WW I. This was the famous successful desert campaign of Lawrence of Arabia. Later, Lawrence went to Versailles where the peace treaty was hammered out -- and was aghast at Britain's betrayal of his Arab friends. Lawrence later refused a commission in the British AF as a personal protest.

At the time of WW I there was very little overt anti Semitiism in Germany. Conditions in Germany were a world apart from the pale in Russia, where many Jews lived in impoverished ghettos. The Jews of Germany were relatively few in number -- but they were bankers, industrialists, scientists, doctors, professors etc

In short, they were a very powerful group -- with the clout to actually deliver on such a deal.

What is remarkable is that no scholar to my knowledge has investgated this whole scenario -- which was proposed not by me but by a Jewish financier, many years ago.

I will search for the link. MHG

[yavoon]

YES, GHAFF'S IS HERE!

DESTROY THE ZIONISTS PIGS!

and btw if anyone cares, what, oh I dont know? the koran? says about the jews...

"2:96 And thou wilt find them greediest of mankind for life and (greedier) than the idolaters. (Each) one of them would like to be allowed to live a thousand years. And to live (a thousand years) would be no means remove him from the doom. Allah is Seer of what they do."

"4:160 Because of the wrongdoing of the Jews We forbade them good things which were (before) made lawful unto them, and because of their much hindering from Allah's way,"

9:34 O ye who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom,

but dont let that influence u, I'm sure it doesn't influence muslims. jews were never treated well by ANY modern standard. they were at times less mistreated in the arab world than in the christian one, but thats about all u can say. they were always disliked, even mohammed slaughtered entire tribes of jews and took the women for slaves/wives.

[AlphaOmega]

Joshua 1:2-6

2Moses My servant is dead. So now arise take his place, go over this Jordan, you and all this people, into the land which I am giving to them, the Israelites.

3Every place upon which the sole of your foot shall tread, that have I given to you, as I promised Moses.

4From the wilderness and this Lebanon to the great river Euphrates--all the land of the Hittites [Canaan]--and to the Great Mediterranean Sea on the west shall be your territory.
5No man shall be able to stand before you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with you; I will not fail you or forsake you.

6Be strong (confident) and of good courage, for you shall cause this people to inherit the land which I swore to their fathers to give them.

[mhgaffney]

Originally Posted by AlphaOmega

Joshua 1:2-6

2Moses My servant is dead. So now arise take his place, go over this Jordan, you and all this people, into the land which I am giving to them, the Israelites.

3Every place upon which the sole of your foot shall tread, that have I given to you, as I promised Moses.

4From the wilderness and this Lebanon to the great river Euphrates--all the land of the Hittites [Canaan]--and to the Great Mediterranean Sea on the west shall be your territory.
5No man shall be able to stand before you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with you; I will not fail you or forsake you.

6Be strong (confident) and of good courage, for you shall cause this people to inherit the land which I swore to their fathers to give them.

Sure Alpha -- but you must remember that much of the bible -- including this passage from Joshua -- was written before Judaism crossed the threshold to monotheism.

Biblical scholars generally agree that the Hebrews did not embrace monotheism as a people until after the return from Babylonia. Joshua was one of the early books -- written well before this.

On fact, there is good reason to believe that the time of exile had a very positive spiritual influence on the Hebrews. They went into exile largely pagan -- and returned home as monotheists. Judaism benefited greatly from its exposure to Persian culture -- which should give us pause today -- and inspire us to take a step back from the war hysteria we are seeing.

In the research for my book GNOSTIC SECRETS OF THE NAASSENES I even traced the preferred name of Jesus, the Son of Man, to Iran. Though it may well have originated in India. It's very clear that the Son of Man expression did not originate in Daniel or in Ezekiel. It was much much older.

True, the prophets had always been monotheists. But they did not speak fpr the people as a whole. Often the prophets were outcasts -- hated and despised. Jeremiah is a good example. He was imprisoned and nearly killed -- and only later recognized as one of the great prophets.

Archeology has confirmed what I'm tellinkg you. The hebrews as a whole remained pagan until roughly the 5th century BC -- the time of the book of Job.

It's no surprise that a pagan god would be a real estate broker. But the G-d of G-ds? Absolutely not.