Pat Tillman -- and the myth of the hero - The Orange Mane

mhgaffney · 03-26-2007, 07:04 PM

This hits the proverbial nail -- and draws the correct conclusion. No doubt, the author will incite another bushel of hate mail.

MHG

March 26, 2007
http://www.counterpunch.org/mickey03262007.html

The Myth of the Hero

Pat Tillman: Beyond the Hype

By MICKEY Z.

The American football hero may be gone but details of his mysterious death in Afghanistan just won't go away. Most recently, as reported by Time Magazine, "Nine officers, including up to four generals, should be held accountable for missteps in the aftermath of the friendly fire death of Army Ranger Pat Tillman in Afghanistan."

This is as good a time as any to contemplate how and why Pat Tillman ended up in position to be killed by his fellow soldiers. Here's how the New York Times described Tillman at the time of his death:

"A graduate of Arizona State University, Tillman, a safety, played for four seasons with the Arizona Cardinals. But as an unrestricted free agent in 2002, he turned town a three-year, $3.6 million contract offer from the Cardinals and enlisted in the Army."

Accordingly, when Tillman was killed, the predictable platitudes followed:

* Defensive tackle Corey Sears of the Houston Texans, who played with Tillman on the Cardinals from 1999 to 2000, said: "All the guys that complain about it being too hot or they don't have enough money, that's not real life. A real life thing is he died for what he believed in."

I wonder if Sears views Iraqis dying for what they believe in to be "a real life thing" or is that reserved exclusively for Americans? If Tillman were still alive, I'd like to ask him what exactly it was that he "believed in" enough to die for. Was it, say, for-profit health care for the few or pre-emptive wars or corporate welfare or maybe the death penalty? How about strip malls, Reality TV, SUVs, or cell phones? Maybe the right to vote for the next American Idol? I'd just like some clarification.

* Former Cardinals head coach Dave McGinnis said Tillman who "represented all that was good in sports...proudly walked away from a career in football to a greater calling."

Definition of "greater calling": An ex-NFL player ruthlessly hunting CIA-created Taliban fighters in Afghanistan in a misguided, myopic attempt to avenge 9/11.

* "Pat Tillman personified all the best values of his country and the NFL," declared commissioner Paul Tagliabue.

What values, Mr. Tagliabue? The values outlined in our history texts or the values of militarism and greed this nation has lived by for over 200 years? (Did Tagliabue or Tillman ever read, say, Zinn's People's History or Blum's Killing Hope?) Can someone do me a favor and list the "best values" of both America and the NFL?

* "Where do we get such men as these? Where to we find these people willing to stand up for America?" asked Rep. J.D. Hayworth, R-Arizona.

Which America was Tillman standing up for-the bosses at Halliburton or the homeless guy I see every day on the subway steps? Do you know anyone who needed Tillman to "stand up" for them by bringing indiscriminate death and destruction upon Iraq and Afghanistan? Are we so numb to the clichés that we'll let them pass without comment or contemplation?

* More Rep. Hayworth: "He chose action rather than words. He just wanted to serve his country."

Again, what country was Tillman serving? The country personified by war criminals like Bush, Clinton, etc.? The country defined by corporate pirates? Indeed, Tillman wasn't serving the two million behind bars or the two million locked in nursing homes against their will. The action he chose over words didn't make our air or water cleaner or stop the suburban sprawl. Tillman could have chosen to serve his country by challenging the corporate-mandated status quo...but that's not how things work around here, is it?

* Even more from Hayworth: "He was a remarkable person. He lived the American dream, and he fought to preserve the American dream and our way of life."

What American dream? The dreams of Wal-Mart, Nike, and The Gap? Whose way of life-Wall Street speculators, professional athletes, and digitally- or surgically-enhanced celebrities? I certainly didn't ask him to kill anyone and he sure wasn't protecting anything I hold dear. Pat Tillman, to me, seemed like a pre-programmed American male...the spawn of decades of corporate conditioning and State-sponsored patriotism.

When Rich Tillman showed up at the San Jose Municipal Rose Garden memorial for his big brother Pat, he "wore a rumpled white T-shirt, no jacket, no tie, no collar," and "asked mourners to hold their spiritual bromides." He later stated: "Pat isn't with God. He's ****ing dead. He wasn't religious. So thank you for your thoughts, but he's ****ing dead.''

Pat Tillman walking away from millions to "fight for his country" does not impress me...but I am awed by the ability to manipulate humans into consistently acting against their interests and the interests of the entire planet.

"People often are conscripted into armies, but sometimes they enlist with gusto," explains Steven Pinker, director of the Center of Cognitive Neuroscience at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. "Jingoism," Pinker declares, "is alarmingly easy to evoke."

"War itself is venal, dirty, confusing and perhaps the most potent narcotic invented by humankind," says New York Times columnist Chris Hedges. "It allows us to suspend individual conscience, maybe even consciousness, for the cause. And few of us are immune... The contagion of war, of the siren call of the nation, is so strong that most cannot resist."

But resist we must...and unless we in America create new, powerful-and urgent-ways to resist, we cannot expect the victims of our indifference and ineptitude to not hold each of us accountable.

Ask yourself this: Who gave up a life of luxury and turned his back on millions to fight in the mountains and caves of Afghanistan for what he believed in and, as a result, is revered by millions as a "hero"?

Depending on who you are and where you live, you might answer "Pat Tillman" or you might answer: "Osama bin Laden."

The world doesn't need any more "heroes" like Tillman or Osama. One of the first things it needs is for the American people to snap out of their propaganda-induced fog ASAP and seek a "greater calling" in the truest sense.

Mickey Z. can be found on the Web at http://www.mickeyz.net.

Garcia Bronco · 03-26-2007, 07:18 PM

I moved this here because I would like everyone to get an opportunity to see the interesting topics mini-nuke brings to the table.

TheDave · 03-26-2007, 07:22 PM

cant wait to see where this goes...

scorpio · 03-26-2007, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

I moved this here because I would like everyone to get an opportunity to see the interesting topics mini-nuke brings to the table.

You're the only moderator I know who trolls his own board.

Kaylore · 03-26-2007, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scorpio

You're the only moderator I know who trolls his own board.

atomicbloke · 03-26-2007, 07:31 PM

I don't understand the logic of this article.

Sure, a few things in America suck. That's a consequence of all the good things in America due to a free world and free-market economy.

But how does that relate to Pat Tillman,s personal calling in life? He chose to do what he felt was his niche in life... without encroaching upon anyone else's... how does that make him bad?

Kaylore · 03-26-2007, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atomicbloke

I don't understand the logic of this article.

Sure, a few things in America suck. That's a consequence of all the good things in America due to a free world and free-market economy.

But how does that relate to Pat Tillman,s personal calling in life? He chose to do what he felt was his niche in life... without encroaching upon anyone else's... how does that make him bad?

It's a bunch of leftist barf where he's saying that since America is bad, and since Pat Tillman died fighting for something bad, Pat Tilman is bad. He basically uses Pat Tillman as an excuse to rip America. Same article we've all read a hundred times, but this one has a different opening. Yawn.

sirhcyennek81 · 03-26-2007, 07:38 PM

He served in a warzone. He is a hero.

*Edit* Anyone serving in any branch of the US Armed forces is a hero, warzone or not. I find it amusing that he blames the US for the war in afghanistan...but I guess whatever works.

ak1971 · 03-26-2007, 07:44 PM

Hey gafney...have you grown your Hilter mustache yet? Seig Heil!

Dagmar · 03-26-2007, 07:46 PM

This is one of those "sit back and watch the board explode" threads that are always entertaining.

Let the FUN begin!!!

lazarus4444 · 03-26-2007, 07:50 PM

Yes, the strip malls suck, the almost total devotion to reality tv sucks, cookie cutter suburbs suck. In Indonesia 3 christian school girls were decapitated by three muslim insurgents. Their heads were thrown in the middle of their village....That doesn't happen in America.

In Thailand Buhhdist teachers have to go to school in armed convoys because over 50 of them have been killed by Islamic extremists in the last 2 years. That doesn't happen in America....

In Pakistan, women who are raped always end up in jail for adultery. Why? Because if you are Islamic and you are female, you have to provide FOUR male witnesses to the rape. Some of these women are executed for their "adultery" as well. That doesn't happen in America.

Pat Tillman and all our soldiers are fighting so bull**** like that doesn't become common on our shores. It is about our personal freedoms. Sure, I can buy a house in a cookie cutter suburb but I don't have to because i have the freedom to choose.

I can smoke if i want, listen to music, buy jeans, cut my hair anyway i want to. A lot of muslims can't do that. So don't disgrace our veterans for fighting for our freedom because it goes farther than what is bad about America, they are fighting for what is good in America too....

Kaylore · 03-26-2007, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dagmar

This is one of those "sit back and watch the board explode" threads that are always entertaining.

Let the FUN begin!!!

I don't think it's that explosive. We've been hearing this diatribe from these guys for years. It's boring. I prefer looking at their hysterics and making fun of their unkempt hippie nature.

Note the armpit hair. Sexy, no?

watermock · 03-26-2007, 07:53 PM

Well I gave a detailed explaination what happened and it was immediately lost. I said two days ago some generals heads were going to roll.

The jist is the Rangers objected to splitting the convoy, and when the second came under attack towing a humvee, Tillman circled back. Evidently he didn't radio in, and he had an afgahn with thim to boot. Bad move. This was a very narrow canyon so it is problematic if they could just thrown a grenade under the hood.

Tillman made a fatal mistake in the fog of war not announcing he was taking a position on the opposite ridge.

watermock · 03-26-2007, 07:55 PM

Looks like one of the protesters in SF that are calling for the head of Pelosi, the most left wing congresswoman on capital hill.

I doubt the major media covered it...they burned effigy of a US soldier, the flag and had a banner yelling **** America and other crap.

They are vermin that have no problem eating their own. It's amusing honestly.

I'm almost positive that's the recent Frisco protest calling for Pelosi's head for funding our troops.

Notice the Arabic designed to encourage the enemy behind her. First it was a war to get the oil...now it's racism. Does anyone know that Kuwait charges more for oil than any other country?

W*GS · 03-26-2007, 07:57 PM

I see gaffney is in full-tilt hate-America-and-everything-that-it-is mode.

I knew the tumor inside him would come bursting out eventually...

REB · 03-26-2007, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaylore

I don't think it's that explosive. We've been hearing this diatribe from these guys for years. It's boring. I prefer looking at their hysterics and making fun of their unkempt hippie nature.

Note the armpit hair. Sexy, no?

and the armpit hair.....

Bladerunner · 03-26-2007, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaylore

It's a bunch of leftist barf where he's saying that since America is bad, and since Pat Tillman died fighting for something bad, Pat Tilman is bad. He basically uses Pat Tillman as an excuse to rip America. Same article we've all read a hundred times, but this one has a different opening. Yawn.

Yeah basically. He does make one good point though, in that the logic behind serving a higher philosophical calling applies equally to Tillman and Bin Laden. I have been amazed at the number of people that simply don't understand why 9/11 happened or that claim "they hate us for our freedom." For all their horrible actions, and they are severe enough to be hunted down, tried, sentenced, and perhaps executed, the perpetrators of 9/11 had and have a rationale. The U.S. was targeted for many years for their presence and foreign policy in the Middle East. Of course the U.S. was perfectly justified in conducting such policy, but there are consequences to all choices and Al Queda's actions certainly stemmed from their interpretation of U.S. foreign policy (i.e. perceived hegemony).

It sounds like the author's issue is far more with corporatism and the many bad artifacts of a capitalistic society. It's unfortunate that he chose to invoke the name of a slain soldier to exclaim his view. Pat Tillman's name has been misused and profiteered from quite frequently lately, it certainly didn't need another round from the other side of the political spectrum.

watermock · 03-26-2007, 08:07 PM

That's a complete line of crap.

Kaylore · 03-26-2007, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bladerunner

Yeah basically. He does make one good point though, in that the logic behind serving a higher philosophical calling applies equally to Tillman and Bin Laden. I have been amazed at the number of people that simply don't understand why 9/11 happened or that claim "they hate us for our freedom." For all their horrible actions, and they are severe enough to be hunted down, tried, sentenced, and perhaps executed, the perpetrators of 9/11 had and have a rationale. The U.S. was targeted for many years for their presence and foreign policy in the Middle East. Of course the U.S. was perfectly justified in conducting such policy, but there are consequences to all choices and Al Queda's actions certainly stemmed from their interpretation of U.S. foreign policy (i.e. perceived hegemony).

It sounds like the author's issue is far more with corporatism and the many bad artifacts of a capitalistic society. It's unfortunate that he chose to invoke the name of a slain soldier to exclaim his view. Pat Tillman's name has been misused and profiteered from quite frequently lately, it certainly didn't need another round from the other side of the political spectrum.

Well, I don't read this guy a lot but I'd guess he does this with everything that has any prayer of being connected politically. I'd imagine Thanksgiving with this guy is a joke.

"Would you like gravy on your potatoes?"

"You mean that corporate slime that you bought at a mega-mart that is destroying small towns and ruining the jobs of middle-America?"

"Just answer yes or no, Mickey."

"I won't let you reduce me to your totalitarian platitudes! My answer is 16! And you must now conform your question to my answer for once! You like that?!? Not so easy to hold me down now with your suspiciously brown gravy on offensively white potatoes...."

"Dude, why do you have be such an ass all the..."

"I won't do this! I don't need to sanction this totalitarian holiday designed to worship the oppression and mass murder of millions of the natives on this continent! And don't think I don't know that these orange slices weren't grown on burned down rain forest land!"

"Would you please leave?"

"Batho Pele! Batho Pele! Rise up! Rise up!"

lazarus4444 · 03-26-2007, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaylore

Well, I don't read this guy a lot but I'd guess he does this with everything that has any prayer of being connected politically. I'd imagine Thanksgiving with this guy is a joke.

"Would you like gravy on your potatoes?"

"You mean that corporate slime that you bought at a mega-mart that is destroying small towns and ruining the jobs of middle-America?"

"Just answer yes or no, Mickey."

"I won't let you reduce me to your totalitarian platitudes! My answer is 16! And you must now conform your question to my answer for once! You like that?!? Not so easy to hold me down now with your suspiciously brown gravy on offensively white potatoes...."

"Dude, why do you have be such an ass all the..."

"I won't do this! I don't need to sanction this totalitarian holiday designed to worship the oppression and mass murder of millions of the natives on this continent! And don't think I don't know that these orange slices weren't grown on burned down rain forest land!"

"Would you please leave?"

"Batho Pele! Batho Pele! Rise up! Rise up!"

Nice one!

TexanBob · 03-26-2007, 08:22 PM

It takes quite a man to piss on a hero's grave. A man who I'd rather not ever meet because then I'd have to flatten him.

REB · 03-26-2007, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaylore

Well, I don't read this guy a lot but I'd guess he does this with everything that has any prayer of being connected politically. I'd imagine Thanksgiving with this guy is a joke.

"Would you like gravy on your potatoes?"

"You mean that corporate slime that you bought at a mega-mart that is destroying small towns and ruining the jobs of middle-America?"

"Just answer yes or no, Mickey."

"I won't let you reduce me to your totalitarian platitudes! My answer is 16! And you must now conform your question to my answer for once! You like that?!? Not so easy to hold me down now with your suspiciously brown gravy on offensively white potatoes...."

"Dude, why do you have be such an ass all the..."

"I won't do this! I don't need to sanction this totalitarian holiday designed to worship the oppression and mass murder of millions of the natives on this continent! And don't think I don't know that these orange slices weren't grown on burned down rain forest land!"

"Would you please leave?"

"Batho Pele! Batho Pele! Rise up! Rise up!"

RkyMtnThunder · 03-26-2007, 08:46 PM

Personally, I dont support the war and lean to the left on most social issues. However I think this article is a bit much.

Sure, there are some ugly sides to our society, but all in all - I would rather deal with reality TV than what other posters touched base on in this thread about life in other countries.

There is a lot of ugly in this world - but even taking the worst self indulgant stereotype of American society - its still much better than dealing with living conditions in most other countries.

The issue I have with the whole Pat Tillman deal is that I felt Tillman's memory was dishonored by lying about the facts of the matter. They blew his death up into something it wasnt just to use his name. And then when the truth started coming out - there were people who tried to fight against it so they could continue with the hero worship

So when I see how Tillman is constantly honored for his sacrifice - its almost a mockery because I dont see other (non famous) friendly fire victims being honored like that - as if they meant any less or their fate any less tragic or they themselves any less 'heroic'?

Tillman's legacy and name seems to have become a pro-war propaganda machine, glorifying his accidental death - and I seriously doubt he would have appreciated that.

watermock · 03-26-2007, 08:51 PM

Getting the record straight has nothing about Tillman not going above and beyond his duty to circle back and try to cover the second convoy.

Again, the mistake was made when the second convoy was in the middle of an ambush and saw fire on a second ridge.

Malcontent · 03-26-2007, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dagmar

This is one of those "sit back and watch the board explode" threads that are always entertaining.

Let the FUN begin!!!

Nope..it doesn't deserve that Dagmar..Just bleedin' bury this thread in honour of PT!

03-26-2007, 07:04 PM	#1
mhgaffney Ring of Famer Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 9,764	Pat Tillman -- and the myth of the hero This hits the proverbial nail -- and draws the correct conclusion. No doubt, the author will incite another bushel of hate mail. MHG March 26, 2007 http://www.counterpunch.org/mickey03262007.html The Myth of the Hero Pat Tillman: Beyond the Hype By MICKEY Z. The American football hero may be gone but details of his mysterious death in Afghanistan just won't go away. Most recently, as reported by Time Magazine, "Nine officers, including up to four generals, should be held accountable for missteps in the aftermath of the friendly fire death of Army Ranger Pat Tillman in Afghanistan." This is as good a time as any to contemplate how and why Pat Tillman ended up in position to be killed by his fellow soldiers. Here's how the New York Times described Tillman at the time of his death: "A graduate of Arizona State University, Tillman, a safety, played for four seasons with the Arizona Cardinals. But as an unrestricted free agent in 2002, he turned town a three-year, $3.6 million contract offer from the Cardinals and enlisted in the Army." Accordingly, when Tillman was killed, the predictable platitudes followed: * Defensive tackle Corey Sears of the Houston Texans, who played with Tillman on the Cardinals from 1999 to 2000, said: "All the guys that complain about it being too hot or they don't have enough money, that's not real life. A real life thing is he died for what he believed in." I wonder if Sears views Iraqis dying for what they believe in to be "a real life thing" or is that reserved exclusively for Americans? If Tillman were still alive, I'd like to ask him what exactly it was that he "believed in" enough to die for. Was it, say, for-profit health care for the few or pre-emptive wars or corporate welfare or maybe the death penalty? How about strip malls, Reality TV, SUVs, or cell phones? Maybe the right to vote for the next American Idol? I'd just like some clarification. * Former Cardinals head coach Dave McGinnis said Tillman who "represented all that was good in sports...proudly walked away from a career in football to a greater calling." Definition of "greater calling": An ex-NFL player ruthlessly hunting CIA-created Taliban fighters in Afghanistan in a misguided, myopic attempt to avenge 9/11. * "Pat Tillman personified all the best values of his country and the NFL," declared commissioner Paul Tagliabue. What values, Mr. Tagliabue? The values outlined in our history texts or the values of militarism and greed this nation has lived by for over 200 years? (Did Tagliabue or Tillman ever read, say, Zinn's People's History or Blum's Killing Hope?) Can someone do me a favor and list the "best values" of both America and the NFL? * "Where do we get such men as these? Where to we find these people willing to stand up for America?" asked Rep. J.D. Hayworth, R-Arizona. Which America was Tillman standing up for-the bosses at Halliburton or the homeless guy I see every day on the subway steps? Do you know anyone who needed Tillman to "stand up" for them by bringing indiscriminate death and destruction upon Iraq and Afghanistan? Are we so numb to the clichés that we'll let them pass without comment or contemplation? * More Rep. Hayworth: "He chose action rather than words. He just wanted to serve his country." Again, what country was Tillman serving? The country personified by war criminals like Bush, Clinton, etc.? The country defined by corporate pirates? Indeed, Tillman wasn't serving the two million behind bars or the two million locked in nursing homes against their will. The action he chose over words didn't make our air or water cleaner or stop the suburban sprawl. Tillman could have chosen to serve his country by challenging the corporate-mandated status quo...but that's not how things work around here, is it? * Even more from Hayworth: "He was a remarkable person. He lived the American dream, and he fought to preserve the American dream and our way of life." What American dream? The dreams of Wal-Mart, Nike, and The Gap? Whose way of life-Wall Street speculators, professional athletes, and digitally- or surgically-enhanced celebrities? I certainly didn't ask him to kill anyone and he sure wasn't protecting anything I hold dear. Pat Tillman, to me, seemed like a pre-programmed American male...the spawn of decades of corporate conditioning and State-sponsored patriotism. When Rich Tillman showed up at the San Jose Municipal Rose Garden memorial for his big brother Pat, he "wore a rumpled white T-shirt, no jacket, no tie, no collar," and "asked mourners to hold their spiritual bromides." He later stated: "Pat isn't with God. He's **ing dead. He wasn't religious. So thank you for your thoughts, but he's **ing dead.'' Pat Tillman walking away from millions to "fight for his country" does not impress me...but I am awed by the ability to manipulate humans into consistently acting against their interests and the interests of the entire planet. "People often are conscripted into armies, but sometimes they enlist with gusto," explains Steven Pinker, director of the Center of Cognitive Neuroscience at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. "Jingoism," Pinker declares, "is alarmingly easy to evoke." "War itself is venal, dirty, confusing and perhaps the most potent narcotic invented by humankind," says New York Times columnist Chris Hedges. "It allows us to suspend individual conscience, maybe even consciousness, for the cause. And few of us are immune... The contagion of war, of the siren call of the nation, is so strong that most cannot resist." But resist we must...and unless we in America create new, powerful-and urgent-ways to resist, we cannot expect the victims of our indifference and ineptitude to not hold each of us accountable. Ask yourself this: Who gave up a life of luxury and turned his back on millions to fight in the mountains and caves of Afghanistan for what he believed in and, as a result, is revered by millions as a "hero"? Depending on who you are and where you live, you might answer "Pat Tillman" or you might answer: "Osama bin Laden." The world doesn't need any more "heroes" like Tillman or Osama. One of the first things it needs is for the American people to snap out of their propaganda-induced fog ASAP and seek a "greater calling" in the truest sense. Mickey Z. can be found on the Web at http://www.mickeyz.net.

03-26-2007, 07:38 PM	#8
sirhcyennek81 Yes...swooping is bad... Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Florence, Colorado Posts: 20,668 Adopt-a-Bronco: All of them.	He served in a warzone. He is a hero. Edit Anyone serving in any branch of the US Armed forces is a hero, warzone or not. I find it amusing that he blames the US for the war in afghanistan...but I guess whatever works. Last edited by sirhcyennek81; 03-26-2007 at 07:42 PM..

03-26-2007, 07:55 PM	#14
watermock "Hoodie Jr" "Hug me!" Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Hot Springs, Ouachitah Posts: 77,090	Looks like one of the protesters in SF that are calling for the head of Pelosi, the most left wing congresswoman on capital hill. I doubt the major media covered it...they burned effigy of a US soldier, the flag and had a banner yelling **** America and other crap. They are vermin that have no problem eating their own. It's amusing honestly. I'm almost positive that's the recent Frisco protest calling for Pelosi's head for funding our troops. Notice the Arabic designed to encourage the enemy behind her. First it was a war to get the oil...now it's racism. Does anyone know that Kuwait charges more for oil than any other country? Last edited by watermock; 03-26-2007 at 08:02 PM..

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

03-26-2007, 07:18 PM	#2
Garcia Bronco Hokie since 1993 Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 45,987 Adopt-a-Bronco: Tom Jackson	I moved this here because I would like everyone to get an opportunity to see the interesting topics mini-nuke brings to the table.

03-26-2007, 07:22 PM	#3
TheDave Sauced... Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 15,120	cant wait to see where this goes...

03-26-2007, 07:31 PM	#6
atomicbloke Ring of Famer La 12 Boca Juniors Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 2,347 Adopt-a-Bronco: Offensive Line	I don't understand the logic of this article. Sure, a few things in America suck. That's a consequence of all the good things in America due to a free world and free-market economy. But how does that relate to Pat Tillman,s personal calling in life? He chose to do what he felt was his niche in life... without encroaching upon anyone else's... how does that make him bad?

03-26-2007, 07:44 PM	#9
ak1971 uhhhh Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 5,536	Hey gafney...have you grown your Hilter mustache yet? Seig Heil!

03-26-2007, 07:46 PM	#10
Dagmar ...there ain't no devil ..there's just God when he's drunk. Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Morrison Posts: 17,132 Adopt-a-Bronco: Tim Tebow	This is one of those "sit back and watch the board explode" threads that are always entertaining. Let the FUN begin!!!

03-26-2007, 07:50 PM	#11
lazarus4444 Ring of Famer Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 1,240 Adopt-a-Bronco: Coach McDaniels	Yes, the strip malls suck, the almost total devotion to reality tv sucks, cookie cutter suburbs suck. In Indonesia 3 christian school girls were decapitated by three muslim insurgents. Their heads were thrown in the middle of their village....That doesn't happen in America. In Thailand Buhhdist teachers have to go to school in armed convoys because over 50 of them have been killed by Islamic extremists in the last 2 years. That doesn't happen in America.... In Pakistan, women who are raped always end up in jail for adultery. Why? Because if you are Islamic and you are female, you have to provide FOUR male witnesses to the rape. Some of these women are executed for their "adultery" as well. That doesn't happen in America. Pat Tillman and all our soldiers are fighting so bull**** like that doesn't become common on our shores. It is about our personal freedoms. Sure, I can buy a house in a cookie cutter suburb but I don't have to because i have the freedom to choose. I can smoke if i want, listen to music, buy jeans, cut my hair anyway i want to. A lot of muslims can't do that. So don't disgrace our veterans for fighting for our freedom because it goes farther than what is bad about America, they are fighting for what is good in America too....

03-26-2007, 07:53 PM	#13
watermock "Hoodie Jr" "Hug me!" Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Hot Springs, Ouachitah Posts: 77,090	Well I gave a detailed explaination what happened and it was immediately lost. I said two days ago some generals heads were going to roll. The jist is the Rangers objected to splitting the convoy, and when the second came under attack towing a humvee, Tillman circled back. Evidently he didn't radio in, and he had an afgahn with thim to boot. Bad move. This was a very narrow canyon so it is problematic if they could just thrown a grenade under the hood. Tillman made a fatal mistake in the fog of war not announcing he was taking a position on the opposite ridge.

03-26-2007, 07:57 PM	#15
W*GS Ring of Famer Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Earth Posts: 19,506	I see gaffney is in full-tilt hate-America-and-everything-that-it-is mode. I knew the tumor inside him would come bursting out eventually...

03-26-2007, 08:07 PM	#18
watermock "Hoodie Jr" "Hug me!" Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Hot Springs, Ouachitah Posts: 77,090	That's a complete line of crap.

03-26-2007, 08:22 PM	#21
TexanBob Don't Argue With Me You Know I'm Right Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 5,023 Adopt-a-Bronco: Darris Nash	It takes quite a man to piss on a hero's grave. A man who I'd rather not ever meet because then I'd have to flatten him.

03-26-2007, 08:46 PM	#23
RkyMtnThunder Perennial Pro-bowler New to the Forum Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 899 Adopt-a-Bronco: None	Personally, I dont support the war and lean to the left on most social issues. However I think this article is a bit much. Sure, there are some ugly sides to our society, but all in all - I would rather deal with reality TV than what other posters touched base on in this thread about life in other countries. There is a lot of ugly in this world - but even taking the worst self indulgant stereotype of American society - its still much better than dealing with living conditions in most other countries. The issue I have with the whole Pat Tillman deal is that I felt Tillman's memory was dishonored by lying about the facts of the matter. They blew his death up into something it wasnt just to use his name. And then when the truth started coming out - there were people who tried to fight against it so they could continue with the hero worship So when I see how Tillman is constantly honored for his sacrifice - its almost a mockery because I dont see other (non famous) friendly fire victims being honored like that - as if they meant any less or their fate any less tragic or they themselves any less 'heroic'? Tillman's legacy and name seems to have become a pro-war propaganda machine, glorifying his accidental death - and I seriously doubt he would have appreciated that.

03-26-2007, 08:51 PM	#24
watermock "Hoodie Jr" "Hug me!" Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Hot Springs, Ouachitah Posts: 77,090	Getting the record straight has nothing about Tillman not going above and beyond his duty to circle back and try to cover the second convoy. Again, the mistake was made when the second convoy was in the middle of an ambush and saw fire on a second ridge.