Denver's Passing Attack . . .

[Cito Pelon]

An observation, and a question:

Some NFL passing attacks I notice - often, but not all the time - the receivers will sprint to an open spot, stop and wait for the QB to hit them. NE and Pitt seem to do this a lot. Their receivers will often just head for the biggest opening they see while looking back at the QB and wait for the ball. Denver doesn't seem to do that. On the contrary, I'll see Denver receivers stick with their patterns no matter if there are 2 defenders right in their path.

My question is: Does Denver's passing attack allow the receiver to just head an open spot if he sees one and I am just missing it; or is Denver's passing attack so regimented an inaccurate QB like Jake will never be able to get the passing O clicking?

[Sodak]

My understanding is that the West Coast Offense, or the version that Denver runs especially, depends on timing and the receivers running accurate routes where the QB can deliver the ball in anticipation of the receiver arriving at the very spot the ball is thrown to simultaneously. It seems that the whole O would need to be in synch, and rythm to work efficiently. Starting with the O line and everybody else. This makes sense really, especially considering the speed of today's DB, and LB's.

I doubt if NE or Pitt have the receiver go to an open spot to wait. That sounds more like a team improvising on a broken play rather than something planned. That's just my opinon, I could be wrong...

[ZachKC]

What was Walker's deal last week? Didn't see any of your game...no seperation? Or did he have the dropsies?

[LonghornBronco]

He droped at least one sure touchdown

[BroncoSoja]

Yeah I notice this as well Cito Peon, it seems like no matter what the defense is in (Zone, Man to Man, etc) our WR's will run the route. Does'nt matter if the route will play into the defense's strength or if it exposes the weakness, we will still run the route, unless of course the route is finished and the WR then has to improvise.

When you look at other teams there WR's will find a spot in the zone (if that is called) and will sit in it. I dunno maybe the others teams QB see's what the defense has called and changes the play at the line to expose what he see's? After all it has been a long time since we have had a QB here that can do that. Thats no knock on PlummINT this time, Bubby and Greaseball could'nt get the job done either in that department.

[elsid13]

Originally Posted by ZachKC

What was Walker's deal last week? Didn't see any of your game...no seperation? Or did he have the dropsies?

Rust. He had couple of opportunities to make big plays when the ball hit him in the hands and bounced off. When timing comes along Denver passing attack will be better then last year.

[Cito Pelon]

Originally Posted by Sodak

My understanding is that the West Coast Offense, or the version that Denver runs especially, depends on timing and the receivers running accurate routes where the QB can deliver the ball in anticipation of the receiver arriving at the very spot the ball is thrown to simultaneously. It seems that the whole O would need to be in synch, and rythm to work efficiently. Starting with the O line and everybody else. This makes sense really, especially considering the speed of today's DB, and LB's.

I doubt if NE or Pitt have the receiver go to an open spot to wait. That sounds more like a team improvising on a broken play rather than something planned. That's just my opinon, I could be wrong...

The Denver passing O seems like it must be the WCO where it's timing and accuracy. Trouble is Jake isn't suited to that - seems to me. So I'm wondering why the genius Shanahan keeps trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

You say NE and Pitt don't have the receiver go to an open spot and wait. I've seen them do that many a time. Seems to me Pitt did that quite a bit right here in Mile High last year, and Roth just waited til they turned their heads and let the ball go. I'm not saying that's exclusively their passing O, I'm saying Denver should try that.

[riiiiick]

Originally Posted by ZachKC

What was Walker's deal last week? Didn't see any of your game...no seperation? Or did he have the dropsies?

i saw no seperation for anyone, except devoe on the pic. watching other games, like indy, it seems manning has 3 or 4 feet of protection behind his line and the recievers roam free. maybe it just seems that way, but ours seem to have guys all over them and fighting for every catch?

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Walker dropped like 4 passes.

[Sodak]

Originally Posted by Cito Pelon

The Denver passing O seems like it must be the WCO where it's timing and accuracy. Trouble is Jake isn't suited to that - seems to me. So I'm wondering why the genius Shanahan keeps trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

You say NE and Pitt don't have the receiver go to an open spot and wait. I've seen them do that many a time. Seems to me Pitt did that quite a bit right here in Mile High last year, and Roth just waited til they turned their heads and let the ball go. I'm not saying that's exclusively their passing O, I'm saying Denver should try that.

Ahhh, yes. What I meant to say is I don't think NE or Pitt ever intend for the receiver to go to an open spot to wait unless the play is broken down or taking longer than expected. Last week Jake didn't have time to get his head up, let alone make his reads, and progressions. I think their pass protection helps Big Ben and Tom Brady sit to make the throws.

I think Cutler will be a huge improvement NEXT YEAR because he has a much quicker release, and better accuracy in the long and short, throws with velocity, or with touch, and has the arm strength to make all of the throws needed. He needs to learn how to look off his receivers better though.

[Cito Pelon]

Originally Posted by elsid13

. . . . When timing comes along Denver passing attack will be better then last year.

I sure hope so. I'm getting pretty sick and tired of a stuttering and stammering passing O. I don't think Denver's O-line and QB are suited to a timing passing O. Again, I asked the original question about the Den passing O because I don't really know if they let one reciever just head to an open spot if the prescribed routes are covered.

I think they should, because there are some holes to exploit, and I think Jake sees them, but the receivers don't - or are not allowed to - go for them.

[elsid13]

Originally Posted by Cito Pelon

The Denver passing O seems like it must be the WCO where it's timing and accuracy. Trouble is Jake isn't suited to that - seems to me. So I'm wondering why the genius Shanahan keeps trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

You say NE and Pitt don't have the receiver go to an open spot and wait. I've seen them do that many a time. Seems to me Pitt did that quite a bit right here in Mile High last year, and Roth just waited til they turned their heads and let the ball go. I'm not saying that's exclusively their passing O, I'm saying Denver should try that.

Denver does run a version of the WCO, which based upon short route and ball control. Shanahan twist to yet is the power running game that he use. Plus there are several formation that are used/not used in the SF traditional WCO. Denver doesn't run a split back field, but use the power I and Shotgun that aren't used by Walsh. In theory it should suit Plummer because he doesn't need to hold on to the ball allowing the WR to go deep.

And what you are seeing in Pitt and NE are WR sitting in zone. Denver players do it to. Smith first catch last week was him in dead spot in zone.

[Taco John]

Originally Posted by Cito Pelon

My question is: Does Denver's passing attack allow the receiver to just head an open spot if he sees one and I am just missing it; or is Denver's passing attack so regimented an inaccurate QB like Jake will never be able to get the passing O clicking?

We run timing routes... And the philosophy when our full offense is implemented is that the quarterback never needs to check to an audible because if he goes through his progressions correctly, someone will always be open... We don't hear that nearly as much anymore (the someone will always be open part) because we haven't been able to use our full offense in awhile...

As I understand it, all the audibles are made not by the quarterback, but by the recievers, who check into different routes based on what the defense is showing them. The quarterback and the receiver have to be on the same page, making the same read on the defense. Sometimes the receiver needs to stick with a route and draw coverage away from somewhere else though. They can't all run into open space.

The criticism that Shanahan is trying to fit a square peg (Jake) into a round hole (our offense) is only as valid as you think Jake is capable of winning on any team across the league. As far as I'm concerned, he's a caretaker, and the reason we're not changing our offense for him is because Shanahan has wanted to plug and play the real deal in when he finally came across him without having to re-teach his offense to the entire crew year after year based on who he's got under center and lose that continuity. Shanahan's winning percentage over the long haul speaks volumes about the approach.

Shanahan has dummied it down as much as possible for Jake, taking away the need for Jake to make too many decisions, but with competition on the roster, there's been talk this offseason of "opening things up." Presumably because there's confidence that Jake can handle it... and if not, there's someone behind him who can come in and start the learning process.

[Sodak]

Think about Griese and the dink and dunk. That'll make you feel better about Jake...

[Sodak]

Originally Posted by Taco John

(Jake) he's a caretaker, and the reason we're not changing our offense for him is because Shanahan has wanted to plug and play the real deal in when he finally came across him without having to re-teach his offense to the entire crew year after year based on who he's got under center and lose that continuity.

That also really makes sense if the backup QB needs to come in.

[Cito Pelon]

Originally Posted by elsid13

Denver does run a version of the WCO, which based upon short route and ball control. Shanahan twist to yet is the power running game that he use. Plus there are several formation that are used/not used in the SF traditional WCO. Denver doesn't run a split back field, but use the power I and Shotgun that aren't used by Walsh. In theory it should suit Plummer because he doesn't need to hold on to the ball allowing the WR to go deep.

And what you are seeing in Pitt and NE are WR sitting in zone. Denver players do it to. Smith first catch last week was him in dead spot in zone.

Denver needs to do that with more than just Rod if they want Plummer to be more efffective, IMO. There's many times Rod is on a short route and double-covered, and the whole middle of the field is wide open, but I'll see a deeper receiver keeping a DB on his hip while he could run straight back to Jake for a nice first down. And I think Jake is waiting for it too. So why isn't this happening?

[Cito Pelon]

Originally Posted by Taco John

We run timing routes... And the philosophy when our full offense is implemented is that the quarterback never needs to check to an audible because if he goes through his progressions correctly, someone will always be open... We don't hear that nearly as much anymore (the someone will always be open part) because we haven't been able to use our full offense in awhile...

As I understand it, all the audibles are made not by the quarterback, but by the recievers, who check into different routes based on what the defense is showing them. The quarterback and the receiver have to be on the same page, making the same read on the defense. Sometimes the receiver needs to stick with a route and draw coverage away from somewhere else though. They can't all run into open space.

The criticism that Shanahan is trying to fit a square peg (Jake) into a round hole (our offense) is only as valid as you think Jake is capable of winning on any team across the league. As far as I'm concerned, he's a caretaker, and the reason we're not changing our offense for him is because Shanahan has wanted to plug and play the real deal in when he finally came across him without having to re-teach his offense to the entire crew year after year based on who he's got under center and lose that continuity. Shanahan's winning percentage over the long haul speaks volumes about the approach.

Shanahan has dummied it down as much as possible for Jake, taking away the need for Jake to make too many decisions, but with competition on the roster, there's been talk this offseason of "opening things up." Presumably because there's confidence that Jake can handle it... and if not, there's someone behind him who can come in and start the learning process.

Seems like that is a problem - receivers running right smack-dab into double coverage.

[Taco John]

How much more effective do you honestly think SHanahan can make Plummer? I can't understand the blame Shanahan for Plummer's ineffectiveness point of view.

We have a superbowl calibre coach with a Superbowl calibre offense when it's running to its potential. We're not going to throw away that offense to suit the needs of a second tier quarterback, when we can just dumb it down and roll for 13 wins.

[Taco John]

Originally Posted by Cito Pelon

Seems like that is a problem - receivers running right smack-dab into double coverage.

I don't think the problem is that receivers are being double covered. I think the problem is that double covered receivers are being thrown to.

[55CrushEm]

Originally Posted by Sodak

My understanding is that the West Coast Offense, or the version that Denver runs especially, depends on timing and the receivers running accurate routes where the QB can deliver the ball in anticipation of the receiver arriving at the very spot the ball is thrown to simultaneously.

Well, in that case, we'd need our starting QB to have an ACCURATE arm for the system to work......oh well.

[Cito Pelon]

Originally Posted by Taco John

How much more effective do you honestly think SHanahan can make Plummer? I can't understand the blame Shanahan for Plummer's ineffectiveness point of view.

We have a superbowl calibre coach with a Superbowl calibre offense when it's running to its potential. We're not going to throw away that offense to suit the needs of a second tier quarterback, when we can just dumb it down and roll for 13 wins.

That's the question I'm asking. If Shanny wants to win an SB with Jake, he's going to have to get more out of the passing game with Jake. Hence my observations that other teams abuse zones better than Denver does.

[elsid13]

Why am I waiting for Popps to come in and blame TJ for this thread.

For what ever reason I think Shanahan and Dinger are going to have to limit Plummer reads again to half the field. IF X and Z receiver are covered either throw it away or run with it.

[Taco John]

Originally Posted by Cito Pelon

That's the question I'm asking. If Shanny wants to win an SB with Jake, he's going to have to get more out of the passing game with Jake. Hence my observations that other teams abuse zones better than Denver does.

How can he get more out of the passing game when he has to limit the offense in order to keep the turnovers down?

[Cito Pelon]

Originally Posted by Taco John

How can he get more out of the passing game when he has to limit the offense in order to keep the turnovers down?

He hasn't limited the offense all that much. "It's the most complicated offense in the NFL", right? What was it before he dumbed it down?

[elsid13]

Originally Posted by Cito Pelon

He hasn't limited the offense all that much. "It's the most complicated offense in the NFL", right? What was it before he dumbed it down?

that not actually true, What he did in the past was limit the reads for Plummer to one side of the field.