Want to Save $3,150 in Taxes? Buy a Hybrid Car. - The Orange Mane

Bronco_Beerslug · 11-15-2005, 05:20 AM

Colorado is great state to buy a hybrid in with it's added incentives!

----------------------------------------------------------------
from the November 15, 2005 edition

Want to save $3,150 in taxes? Buy a hybrid car.
By Mark Clayton | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
Buying a hybrid car to save gas and the environment may be its own reward. But for curmudgeons who need extra incentives, help is on the way.

Across America, states, cities, and corporations are leaping on the hybrid-incentives bandwagon. On top of state tax credits, some hybrid drivers now enjoy exemptions from emissions-testing and excise tax. Others even get unlimited use of HOV commuter lanes.

And the mother of all hybrid perks will soon be unveiled: Beginning in January, the federal government will offer a tax credit of as much as $3,150 per car, based on its emissions profile.

"The federal incentives, higher gas prices, and all these other small but attractive perks are tipping the balance," says Bradley Berman, editor and owner of hybridcars.com. "Hybrid culture is definitely shifting into the mainstream. It's moved from environmentalists and early adopters to energy security and people that just want to save on gas."

But like bleacher bums who envy those in box seats, drivers of regular vehicles are honking their horns in protest at the sweet perks.

"I worry that special privileges for certain types of vehicles may create some hostility," says Walter McManus, director of the Office for the Study of Automotive Transportation at the University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute in Ann Arbor, Mich.

Such concerns haven't slowed the hybrid push. At least 20 states in the past five years have offered incentives to hybrid buyers, according to hybridcars.com. California and Virginia are among those permitting lone drivers of hybrids to use High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) commuter lanes normally restricted to those who carpool. But that list will probably grow in 2006, since the federal highway transportation bill passed by Congress in August specifically permits states to expand HOV access to hybrids.

Cleaner city air is one idea behind such perks. Another is that if there were more hybrids on the road, the nation could fill up fewer tankers in the Persian Gulf.

But because they cost more to manufacture, the "hybrid premium" has made their return on investment hard to justify unless gas is more than $3 a gallon. So the incentives just keep on coming.

In Boston, where monthly parking can cost as much as a small apartment, the city council last week began debating an ordinance to allow hybrid owners to park free at meters. If approved, Beantown would join New Haven, Conn., San Jose, Calif., Albuquerque, N.M., and Los Angeles.

The federal tax credit may be the biggest draw yet.Just ask Daniel Blackman of Montclair, N.J. With his aging Volvo starting to give him fits, the federal tax credit is looking good.

"I'm seriously considering buying a hybrid, and it's mainly because of all the incentives being offered," he says.

If he buys a Prius after Jan. 1, he explains, the federal government will give him a dollar-for-dollar tax credit of $3,150. His employer, Google, will give him up to $5,000 more. All told, he would save $8,000 off the cost of a new Prius. And the deal would be even sweeter if he lived in Colorado - which offers an additional $3,400 tax credit.

Meanwhile, some critics, like auto writer David Booth of Canada's National Post, refer to hybrid lovers as "enviro- weenies." Sally Pipes, president of the Pacific Research Institute, a free-market think tank based in San Francisco, has said that hybrid cars are a "ruse for environmentalists" aimed at imposing more restrictions on others. Feeding into that view are press accounts citing the ire of Virginia motorists toward hybrid owners now permitted to drive solo in HOV lanes - while they stew in traffic.

Even environmentalists who generally support hybrid technology are circumspect about the avalanche of incentives.

"With that generous federal incentive in place, I would question whether states ought to make it a priority to tack onto that other perks, especially given limited state budgets," says Kevin Mills, director of the Clean Car Campaign at Environmental Defense, in New York.

In the short run, the federal tax credit seems likely to boost significantly hybrid sales. Domestic carmakers like Ford and General Motors, who lag behind Toyota and Honda, could be the biggest beneficiaries, analysts say.

Dr. McManus, who has crunched the numbers, says annual sales of hybrids will reach about 1.2 million a year - nearly double previous forecasts, thanks to the energy bill's massive federal tax credit.

Still, it will be years before hybrids make a big dent in gas demand or greenhouse-gas emissions, he notes. And it would be unfortunate, he says, if the energy-saving technology developed a bad reputation because it was so favored.

"People have burned SUVs," McManus says. "Nobody's done that to a hybrid - yet. But if they keep giving special privileges to one type of vehicle, there could be a backlash."

http://tinyurl.com/d4bfe

Billy Clyde Puckett · 11-15-2005, 05:31 AM

It is great if you want to buy a hybrid car to conserve gas and reduce pollution, but don't count on it saving you money. You will pay about 5K more for a Prius than a comparable Camray, the mileage claims are vastly overstated (AAA says they are inflated by 19 mpg) and the maintenance costs are more than double a "normal" car.

Bronco_Beerslug · 11-15-2005, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Guy

It is great if you want to buy a hybrid car to conserve gas and reduce pollution, but don't count on it saving you money. You will pay about 5K more for a Prius than a comparable Camray, the mileage claims are vastly overstated (AAA says they are inflated by 19 mpg) and the maintenance costs are more than double a "normal" car.

I haven't seen anything that backs those statements. Have any links to studies or facts that back them?

The warranty on all electric related parts is 8 years by the way.

Bronco_Beerslug · 11-15-2005, 05:41 AM

Accord hybrid the best one yet
CARLSBAD, Calif. — Each new gas-electric hybrid model leapfrogs previous ones in refinement, power, familiarity. Predictably, then, Honda's 2005 Accord hybrid is the best so far, by far.

The Accord hybrid, not on sale until December though gas-power '05 Accords are already at dealers, can claim several firsts or bests.

It has the biggest gas engine — a 3-liter V-6 — yet mated to an electric motor to create a hybrid. It's the first hybrid more powerful than the gas-engine equivalent: 255 horsepower vs. the gas V-6's 240 hp. It's the first hybrid that shuts down half the engine's cylinders under light load to save even more gas.

And it's the first that drives so conventionally that you honestly wouldn't know if somebody didn't tell you, or you didn't spot the small "hybrid" badges.

One reason the Accord hybrid has such an easy familiarity is that it uses a conventional automatic transmission instead of the continuously variable transmission (CVT) that Toyota and Ford favor for hybrids. The normal feel of the Honda gearbox is a welcome respite from the rev-happy CVTs.

The Accord hybrid's only significant drawback is price, about $3,400 more than the similar gasoline model, which is more or less typical of hybrid pricing. Honda says the Accord hybrid will be about $30,000, offered only as a high-end EX model, luxed up with leather and such.

Honda's hybrid system — IMA, for integrated motor assist — always uses the gas engine, then kicks in the electric motor for more power when needed. Toyota and Ford do the opposite, relying on the electric motor as long as possible, then starting the gas engine when needed.

Honda's IMA hybrids typically get better fuel economy on the highway, as conventional gas engines do. Toyota and Ford systems are better in town.
(CONTINUED)
http://tinyurl.com/47lzq

Interior of the Honda Accord Hybrid.

Bronco_Beerslug · 11-15-2005, 05:45 AM

Gas Mileage HybridCars.com

Honda Insight: City 61 Highway 68
Toyota Prius: City 60 Highway 51
Honda Civic: City 48 Highway 51
Honda Accord: City 30 Highway 37
Ford Escape (2wd): City 36 Highway 31
Ford Escape (4wd): City 33 Highway 29
Mercury Mariner: City 33 Highway 29
Toyota Highlander (2wd): City 33 Highway 28
Toyota Highlander (4wd): City 31 Highway 27
Lexus RX400h: City 31 Highway 27

These figures represent EPA test numbers, which are commonly 10 - 20 percent higher than real-world fuel economy for hybrid and conventional vehicles.

Calculator
Use our Gas Mileage Impact Calculator to track your gas consumption, mpg, and tailpipe emissions. Learn about the methodology and sponsorship behind the calculator.

EPA Numbers
Official EPA fuel economy numbers are inflated for all cars—not just hybrids. Get the details about EPA testing and the resulting numbers.

Gas-Saving Tips
Ten easy tips for maximum mpg, and a more detailed list of advanced steps for the fanatic gas-sippers.

Low-Resistance Tires
Learn about tire resistance, how it affects mileage, and how to choose the right tires for your hybrid.

Mileage Stories
Learn from the experiences of other hybrid drivers who pay close attention to how they drive, and as a result, get the most for their mileage.

Winter Driving and Fuel Economy
On cold winter days, all vehicles, machines (and people) get less mileage to the gallon. Hybrids drivers care about fuel economy, and will notice the difference more than others.

Bronco_Beerslug · 11-15-2005, 05:54 AM

2006 Honda Civic HYBRID

2006 Honda Civic EX

http://tinyurl.com/cos5f

2005 Toyota Prius

2006 Toyota Camry LE

Billy Clyde Puckett · 11-15-2005, 07:09 AM

Dealers in Denver are charging 5k over sticker for the hybrid cars. The mileage and maintnenace came from an NBC nightly news story about two weeks ago. Again, I applaud those if they do this to save gas or pollution, but people should understand that they will not save money

Bronco_Beerslug · 11-15-2005, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Guy

Dealers in Denver are charging 5k over sticker for the hybrid cars. The mileage and maintnenace came from an NBC nightly news story about two weeks ago. Again, I applaud those if they do this to save gas or pollution, but people should understand that they will not save money

No, they're not (not at the dealers I've visited). I was just at Elway Honda and Mountain States Toyota pricing hybrids 2 weeks ago.
With the federal and state incentives people WILL save money buying hybrids.
But even more important than saving money is buying hybrids helps move us away from the grip of big oil and gas.
The math is pretty simple to me.

El Guapo · 11-15-2005, 08:15 AM

i love how people think they are doing the environment good. The projected battery life on thse is 5 years, then the batteries are toxic dump. On top of that it costs $500 to replace a battery in a prius cause they're so freakin huge.

Bronco_Beerslug · 11-15-2005, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maverick_7

i love how people think they are doing the environment good. The projected battery life on thse is 5 years, then the batteries are toxic dump. On top of that it costs $500 to replace a battery in a prius cause they're so freakin huge.

Nope, do your research. They're warranted for eight years. The more of these cars that are sold the LESS demand for gasoline which LOWERS the price of gasoline.

El Guapo · 11-15-2005, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronco_Beerslug

Nope, do your research. They're warranted for eight years. The more of these cars that are sold the LESS demand for gasoline which LOWERS the price of gasoline.

my dad has one and a camry. he said that he's wasted his money on the hybrid because the camry's gas mileage is almost just as good.

ALSO, GM started producing vehicles in '04 that have E-85 engines. This means that they are capable of running off of gas that contains 85% ethanol! So in an SUV that would normally get 200-230miles a tank could now get over 450 miles.

They are going to start marketing it later this year...

alkemical · 11-15-2005, 07:43 AM

I'm looking at getting a diesel - mostly because the emissions testing in PA is not required if you have a diesel.

RaiderH8r · 11-15-2005, 09:00 AM

An amusing unintended consequence was written about in an LA Times op-ed piece a couple months ago. The gist of it was that since car pool lanes in LA (as well as NOVA and DC) are open to hybrids regardless of passenger load, the unintended consequence of incentivizing hybrids in this fashion is that now there are so many hybrids in the carpool lanes that they are now congested as bad as the regular lanes and, as a consequence, more time is spent idling on the interstate and contributing to the smog factor. Just a thought, discuss.

Bronco_Beerslug · 11-15-2005, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaiderH8r

An amusing unintended consequence was written about in an LA Times op-ed piece a couple months ago. The gist of it was that since car pool lanes in LA (as well as NOVA and DC) are open to hybrids regardless of passenger load, the unintended consequence of incentivizing hybrids in this fashion is that now there are so many hybrids in the carpool lanes that they are now congested as bad as the regular lanes and, as a consequence, more time is spent idling on the interstate and contributing to the smog factor. Just a thought, discuss.

They're all idling in traffic in LA anyway so better to have hybrids idling than gas eaters. Hybrids don't use their gas engine when idling

RaiderH8r · 11-15-2005, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronco_Beerslug

They're all idling in traffic in LA anyway so better to have hybrids idling than gas eaters. Hybrids don't use their gas engine when idling

I think his point was that the hybrids have jammed the carpool lanes to the point where it defeats the purpose to car pool and has resulted in fewer people utilizing carpooling as an energy conservation measure. Again resulting in more cars on the interstate and more idling by non-hybrid autos that continue to carry a sufficient passenger load so as to allow them to use the carpool lane.

Bronco_Beerslug · 11-15-2005, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaiderH8r

I think his point was that the hybrids have jammed the carpool lanes to the point where it defeats the purpose to car pool and has resulted in fewer people utilizing carpooling as an energy conservation measure. Again resulting in more cars on the interstate and more idling by non-hybrid autos that continue to carry a sufficient passenger load so as to allow them to use the carpool lane.

I don't how many cars are using HOV lanes in your area but I know in Denver they are like barren waste lands. I'd have to say if this an argument against hybrids it is a weak one.

RaiderH8r · 11-15-2005, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronco_Beerslug

I don't how many cars are using HOV lanes in your area but I know in Denver they are like barren waste lands. I'd have to say if this an argument against hybrids it is a weak one.

The HOV is packed most days. It's a crapshoot on which day the HOV will move faster than the regular lanes. But DC is different from Denver in the respect that most people using those lanes are going into the district to work and the work areas in the district are Cap Hill, Downtown, or just off the hill, all pretty localized. So you can find someone going to your area of town pretty easily. I suspect that Denver is so spread out that it becomes difficult to pick up "slugs" to commute in with you in the HOV lanes.

alkemical · 11-15-2005, 09:09 AM

I personally support hybrid - i think the 'in city' milage is where it beats the full gas cars/SUV's. I think it's a nice step too - image if you could get an eth+hybrid engine!!!!

I'd get a hybrid, and if i could get a core exchange for the battery replacement - that'd be cool too.

11-15-2005, 05:20 AM	#1
Bronco_Beerslug Angling in the Deep Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Texas Riviera, Southern Mountains Posts: 24,281	Want to Save $3,150 in Taxes? Buy a Hybrid Car. Colorado is great state to buy a hybrid in with it's added incentives! ---------------------------------------------------------------- from the November 15, 2005 edition Want to save $3,150 in taxes? Buy a hybrid car. By Mark Clayton \| Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor Buying a hybrid car to save gas and the environment may be its own reward. But for curmudgeons who need extra incentives, help is on the way. Across America, states, cities, and corporations are leaping on the hybrid-incentives bandwagon. On top of state tax credits, some hybrid drivers now enjoy exemptions from emissions-testing and excise tax. Others even get unlimited use of HOV commuter lanes. And the mother of all hybrid perks will soon be unveiled: Beginning in January, the federal government will offer a tax credit of as much as $3,150 per car, based on its emissions profile. "The federal incentives, higher gas prices, and all these other small but attractive perks are tipping the balance," says Bradley Berman, editor and owner of hybridcars.com. "Hybrid culture is definitely shifting into the mainstream. It's moved from environmentalists and early adopters to energy security and people that just want to save on gas." But like bleacher bums who envy those in box seats, drivers of regular vehicles are honking their horns in protest at the sweet perks. "I worry that special privileges for certain types of vehicles may create some hostility," says Walter McManus, director of the Office for the Study of Automotive Transportation at the University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute in Ann Arbor, Mich. Such concerns haven't slowed the hybrid push. At least 20 states in the past five years have offered incentives to hybrid buyers, according to hybridcars.com. California and Virginia are among those permitting lone drivers of hybrids to use High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) commuter lanes normally restricted to those who carpool. But that list will probably grow in 2006, since the federal highway transportation bill passed by Congress in August specifically permits states to expand HOV access to hybrids. Cleaner city air is one idea behind such perks. Another is that if there were more hybrids on the road, the nation could fill up fewer tankers in the Persian Gulf. But because they cost more to manufacture, the "hybrid premium" has made their return on investment hard to justify unless gas is more than $3 a gallon. So the incentives just keep on coming. In Boston, where monthly parking can cost as much as a small apartment, the city council last week began debating an ordinance to allow hybrid owners to park free at meters. If approved, Beantown would join New Haven, Conn., San Jose, Calif., Albuquerque, N.M., and Los Angeles. The federal tax credit may be the biggest draw yet.Just ask Daniel Blackman of Montclair, N.J. With his aging Volvo starting to give him fits, the federal tax credit is looking good. "I'm seriously considering buying a hybrid, and it's mainly because of all the incentives being offered," he says. If he buys a Prius after Jan. 1, he explains, the federal government will give him a dollar-for-dollar tax credit of $3,150. His employer, Google, will give him up to $5,000 more. All told, he would save $8,000 off the cost of a new Prius. And the deal would be even sweeter if he lived in Colorado - which offers an additional $3,400 tax credit. Meanwhile, some critics, like auto writer David Booth of Canada's National Post, refer to hybrid lovers as "enviro- weenies." Sally Pipes, president of the Pacific Research Institute, a free-market think tank based in San Francisco, has said that hybrid cars are a "ruse for environmentalists" aimed at imposing more restrictions on others. Feeding into that view are press accounts citing the ire of Virginia motorists toward hybrid owners now permitted to drive solo in HOV lanes - while they stew in traffic. Even environmentalists who generally support hybrid technology are circumspect about the avalanche of incentives. "With that generous federal incentive in place, I would question whether states ought to make it a priority to tack onto that other perks, especially given limited state budgets," says Kevin Mills, director of the Clean Car Campaign at Environmental Defense, in New York. In the short run, the federal tax credit seems likely to boost significantly hybrid sales. Domestic carmakers like Ford and General Motors, who lag behind Toyota and Honda, could be the biggest beneficiaries, analysts say. Dr. McManus, who has crunched the numbers, says annual sales of hybrids will reach about 1.2 million a year - nearly double previous forecasts, thanks to the energy bill's massive federal tax credit. Still, it will be years before hybrids make a big dent in gas demand or greenhouse-gas emissions, he notes. And it would be unfortunate, he says, if the energy-saving technology developed a bad reputation because it was so favored. "People have burned SUVs," McManus says. "Nobody's done that to a hybrid - yet. But if they keep giving special privileges to one type of vehicle, there could be a backlash." http://tinyurl.com/d4bfe

11-15-2005, 05:54 AM	#6
Bronco_Beerslug Angling in the Deep Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Texas Riviera, Southern Mountains Posts: 24,281	2006 Honda Civic HYBRID 2006 Honda Civic EX http://tinyurl.com/cos5f 2005 Toyota Prius 2006 Toyota Camry LE Last edited by Bronco_Beerslug; 11-15-2005 at 06:18 AM..

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11-15-2005, 05:31 AM	#2
Billy Clyde Puckett Billy=Semi Tough Big Guy Looking down on KC, SD and Oakland Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: between 5,000 and 10,000 feet elevation Posts: 12,665 Adopt-a-Bronco: John Elway	It is great if you want to buy a hybrid car to conserve gas and reduce pollution, but don't count on it saving you money. You will pay about 5K more for a Prius than a comparable Camray, the mileage claims are vastly overstated (AAA says they are inflated by 19 mpg) and the maintenance costs are more than double a "normal" car.

11-15-2005, 05:41 AM	#4
Bronco_Beerslug Angling in the Deep Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Texas Riviera, Southern Mountains Posts: 24,281	Accord hybrid the best one yet CARLSBAD, Calif. — Each new gas-electric hybrid model leapfrogs previous ones in refinement, power, familiarity. Predictably, then, Honda's 2005 Accord hybrid is the best so far, by far. The Accord hybrid, not on sale until December though gas-power '05 Accords are already at dealers, can claim several firsts or bests. It has the biggest gas engine — a 3-liter V-6 — yet mated to an electric motor to create a hybrid. It's the first hybrid more powerful than the gas-engine equivalent: 255 horsepower vs. the gas V-6's 240 hp. It's the first hybrid that shuts down half the engine's cylinders under light load to save even more gas. And it's the first that drives so conventionally that you honestly wouldn't know if somebody didn't tell you, or you didn't spot the small "hybrid" badges. One reason the Accord hybrid has such an easy familiarity is that it uses a conventional automatic transmission instead of the continuously variable transmission (CVT) that Toyota and Ford favor for hybrids. The normal feel of the Honda gearbox is a welcome respite from the rev-happy CVTs. The Accord hybrid's only significant drawback is price, about $3,400 more than the similar gasoline model, which is more or less typical of hybrid pricing. Honda says the Accord hybrid will be about $30,000, offered only as a high-end EX model, luxed up with leather and such. Honda's hybrid system — IMA, for integrated motor assist — always uses the gas engine, then kicks in the electric motor for more power when needed. Toyota and Ford do the opposite, relying on the electric motor as long as possible, then starting the gas engine when needed. Honda's IMA hybrids typically get better fuel economy on the highway, as conventional gas engines do. Toyota and Ford systems are better in town. (CONTINUED) http://tinyurl.com/47lzq Interior of the Honda Accord Hybrid.

11-15-2005, 05:45 AM	#5
Bronco_Beerslug Angling in the Deep Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Texas Riviera, Southern Mountains Posts: 24,281	Gas Mileage HybridCars.com Honda Insight: City 61 Highway 68 Toyota Prius: City 60 Highway 51 Honda Civic: City 48 Highway 51 Honda Accord: City 30 Highway 37 Ford Escape (2wd): City 36 Highway 31 Ford Escape (4wd): City 33 Highway 29 Mercury Mariner: City 33 Highway 29 Toyota Highlander (2wd): City 33 Highway 28 Toyota Highlander (4wd): City 31 Highway 27 Lexus RX400h: City 31 Highway 27 These figures represent EPA test numbers, which are commonly 10 - 20 percent higher than real-world fuel economy for hybrid and conventional vehicles. Calculator Use our Gas Mileage Impact Calculator to track your gas consumption, mpg, and tailpipe emissions. Learn about the methodology and sponsorship behind the calculator. EPA Numbers Official EPA fuel economy numbers are inflated for all cars—not just hybrids. Get the details about EPA testing and the resulting numbers. Gas-Saving Tips Ten easy tips for maximum mpg, and a more detailed list of advanced steps for the fanatic gas-sippers. Low-Resistance Tires Learn about tire resistance, how it affects mileage, and how to choose the right tires for your hybrid. Mileage Stories Learn from the experiences of other hybrid drivers who pay close attention to how they drive, and as a result, get the most for their mileage. Winter Driving and Fuel Economy On cold winter days, all vehicles, machines (and people) get less mileage to the gallon. Hybrids drivers care about fuel economy, and will notice the difference more than others.

11-15-2005, 07:09 AM	#7
Billy Clyde Puckett Billy=Semi Tough Big Guy Looking down on KC, SD and Oakland Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: between 5,000 and 10,000 feet elevation Posts: 12,665 Adopt-a-Bronco: John Elway	Dealers in Denver are charging 5k over sticker for the hybrid cars. The mileage and maintnenace came from an NBC nightly news story about two weeks ago. Again, I applaud those if they do this to save gas or pollution, but people should understand that they will not save money

11-15-2005, 08:15 AM	#9
El Guapo aka mav_7. who? Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: VA (heart is in TX) Posts: 3,450	i love how people think they are doing the environment good. The projected battery life on thse is 5 years, then the batteries are toxic dump. On top of that it costs $500 to replace a battery in a prius cause they're so freakin huge.

11-15-2005, 07:43 AM	#12
alkemical Guerrilla Ontologist rorrim\|mirror Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Future Posts: 42,698 Adopt-a-Bronco: Prima Materia	I'm looking at getting a diesel - mostly because the emissions testing in PA is not required if you have a diesel.

11-15-2005, 09:00 AM	#13
RaiderH8r In The Bag Don't worry. Nobody's listening. Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Meth Alley Posts: 9,926 Adopt-a-Bronco: MethWolfe	An amusing unintended consequence was written about in an LA Times op-ed piece a couple months ago. The gist of it was that since car pool lanes in LA (as well as NOVA and DC) are open to hybrids regardless of passenger load, the unintended consequence of incentivizing hybrids in this fashion is that now there are so many hybrids in the carpool lanes that they are now congested as bad as the regular lanes and, as a consequence, more time is spent idling on the interstate and contributing to the smog factor. Just a thought, discuss.

11-15-2005, 09:09 AM	#18
alkemical Guerrilla Ontologist rorrim\|mirror Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Future Posts: 42,698 Adopt-a-Bronco: Prima Materia	I personally support hybrid - i think the 'in city' milage is where it beats the full gas cars/SUV's. I think it's a nice step too - image if you could get an eth+hybrid engine!!!! I'd get a hybrid, and if i could get a core exchange for the battery replacement - that'd be cool too.