Let's see if it's possible.....

[Husky Jerk]

I would like to issue a challenge. I have been reading these threads for a couple days now, trying to gleem some useful information in order to help clear up my decision on who to vote for in Nov. All I see is name calling and "I know you are but what am I?"s. Is it possible for either side to discuss why they support the candidate they support. I'm curious to see if there is anything to say other than "they're evil" or "they screwed us". I don't want to hear about anything not pertaining to Kerry or Bush, nor do I want to hear how bad the other one is. Just why you like your candidate. I have my opinions, but I am open-minded, and by the posts I see here, I think that is a rare trait, so let's hear what you have to say. Or do you all just like to argue?

By the way, Hi to everyone, been coming to OM for awhile, just don't bother to post too much.

[Spider]

Originally Posted by Husky Jerk

I would like to issue a challenge. I have been reading these threads for a couple days now, trying to gleem some useful information in order to help clear up my decision on who to vote for in Nov. All I see is name calling and "I know you are but what am I?"s. Is it possible for either side to discuss why they support the candidate they support. I'm curious to see if there is anything to say other than "they're evil" or "they screwed us". I don't want to hear about anything not pertaining to Kerry or Bush, nor do I want to hear how bad the other one is. Just why you like your candidate. I have my opinions, but I am open-minded, and by the posts I see here, I think that is a rare trait, so let's hear what you have to say. Or do you all just like to argue?

By the way, Hi to everyone, been coming to OM for awhile, just don't bother to post too much.

Welcome ..........
I realy wouldnt tell you how to vote , thats up to you and your personal convictions , I will tell you why Iam voting for Kerry though .........
I feel Kerry will do a better job on the Economy as far as Jobs go , his Tax plan for business rewards companies for staying here , not leaving .....
War on Terror , Kerry served in a war , he knows what it is all about , I think Kerry would do a better job of listening to his advisors ........
And then Healthcare , it bugs me so many low tech Jobs people are working cant afford healthcare .........
those are the 3 most important issues to me

[Blueflame]

Several months ago, Spider posted a link to a website that used a questionnaire on the issues to match voters with their best candidate. One of the candidates scored above a 90% match to my answers, while the other scored less than 30%, making my choice very easy.

The issues facing America are very complex... and individual opinions on those issues vary. Only you can decide which candidate is closer to your own ideology, HJ.

[Rock Chalk]

Originally Posted by §Pide®

Welcome ..........
I realy wouldnt tell you how to vote , thats up to you and your personal convictions , I will tell you why Iam voting for Kerry though .........
I feel Kerry will do a better job on the Economy as far as Jobs go , his Tax plan for business rewards companies for staying here , not leaving .....
War on Terror , Kerry served in a war , he knows what it is all about , I think Kerry would do a better job of listening to his advisors ........
And then Healthcare , it bugs me so many low tech Jobs people are working cant afford healthcare .........
those are the 3 most important issues to me

What does it matter Spider? All you will do is sit on your ass anyway and milk off the government.

Vote Democrat: It's easier than getting a job.

[Spider]

Originally Posted by AlecRaenos

What does it matter Spider? All you will do is sit on your ass anyway and milk off the government.

Vote Democrat: It's easier than getting a job.

Hey look everyone who crawled out from Hiding .........Why it is Mr I support this war , but to Chicken Shiat to fight in it ........... How you been coward ?

[Rascal]

Originally Posted by Husky Jerk

I would like to issue a challenge. I have been reading these threads for a couple days now, trying to gleem some useful information in order to help clear up my decision on who to vote for in Nov. All I see is name calling and "I know you are but what am I?"s. Is it possible for either side to discuss why they support the candidate they support. I'm curious to see if there is anything to say other than "they're evil" or "they screwed us". I don't want to hear about anything not pertaining to Kerry or Bush, nor do I want to hear how bad the other one is. Just why you like your candidate. I have my opinions, but I am open-minded, and by the posts I see here, I think that is a rare trait, so let's hear what you have to say. Or do you all just like to argue?

By the way, Hi to everyone, been coming to OM for awhile, just don't bother to post too much.

Good luck with that.

I'm a moderate with a conservative slant

Several things I don't like about Kerry. I'm against abortion, especially partial birth. And he has already voiced his approval of it. That is strike one.

He has flip flopped on several issues, and seems more concerned about what every body thinks they want him to say rather then having a backbone and saying what he truly thinks.

I am afraid that if he becomes President we will get out of Iraq before we should, granted we probably shouldn't have gone there in the first place but we did, and it will hurt us. I am afraid he will bend over backwards trying to kiss up to the French and UN that it will hurt us.

And finally, because of his antics when he got back from Nam. I'm sorry but some of the stuff he said still gets me pissed of every time I read it, and not to mention the book he wrote (I have a friend who has one and I read some of it) and the cover on it.

I think the economy is turning around after the disaster after 9-11, and I think Bush has some to do with that all though I haven't agreed with all of his economic decisions. I don't think the momentum will carry with Kerry though, but then I haven't studied that very much as of yet.

I think Bush has made some mistakes in the handling of the war, but I think he has listen to his advisors and is doing a decent job in Iraq and Afghanistan. Again, I'm not sure that Kerry will do a good job and just because he got 3 purple hearts doesn't mean he will be a good commander-in-chief.

Those are some of the primary things.

Bush defintely isn't a poster boy either, but he's better then Kerry IMO. I agree with Spider on healthcare, but that isn't such a big concern for me. And then there is the environment which Bush has a mixed record on, but that isn't a big concern of mine either.

Like Spider said I won't tell you how to vote, that is for you to decide by analyzing the candidates and see which one's policies/morals/etc are in line with yours.

[Rascal]

Do you happen to have that website or the thread title handy Blue?

I remember that site, but I thought it was the democratic presidential nominees only. But I am probably wrong, as I have been all day.

[Blueflame]

Originally Posted by rascal

Do you happen to have that website or the thread title handy Blue?

I remember that site, but I thought it was the democratic presidential nominees only. But I am probably wrong, as I have been all day.

I don't have it, but with a bit of effort could probably find it through "search"... I'm pretty sure Spider still has it and won't mind re-posting it.

While the scorecard did include all the Democratic hopefuls, the one I took also included Bush.

[Spider]

Originally Posted by Blueflame

I don't have it, but with a bit of effort could probably find it through "search"... I'm pretty sure Spider still has it and won't mind re-posting it.

While the scorecard did include all the Democratic hopefuls, the one I took also included Bush.

Here ya go ................. http://www.presidentmatch.com/Main.jsp2?cp=main

[Blueflame]

Originally Posted by §Pide®

Here ya go ................. http://www.presidentmatch.com/Main.jsp2?cp=main

Thanks, Spider!

[Spider]

Originally Posted by Blueflame

Thanks, Spider!

NP

[Old Dude]

Originally Posted by §Pide®

Here ya go ................. http://www.presidentmatch.com/Main.jsp2?cp=main

Very useful site.

And no matter which way you lean on the candidates or issues, keep this in mind.

When you cast a vote for the president you're voting not just for that person, but for the entire administration. That includes all the cabinet members, the attorney general, ambassadors, various agency heads and so forth.

The entire executive branch.

You're also deciding which party will be appointing federal judges, so it has a major impact, over time, on the judiciary as well.

Thousands of people.

Even when you're looking at the personal issues of one guy or another, and keeping fully in mind that the Pres is the most important single office holder in the land, it is wise to keep in mind what kinds of policies are going to stem from giving control of the executive branch to one party or another at all the levels it operates.

[Spider]

Originally Posted by Old Dude

Very useful site.

And no matter which way you lean on the candidates or issues, keep this in mind.

When you cast a vote for the president you're voting not just for that person, but for the entire administration. That includes all the cabinet members, the attorney general, ambassadors, various agency heads and so forth.

The entire executive branch.

You're also deciding which party will be appointing federal judges, so it has a major impact, over time, on the judiciary as well.

Thousands of people.

Even when you're looking at the personal issues of one guy or another, and keeping fully in mind that the Pres is the most important single office holder in the land, it is wise to keep in mind what kinds of policies are going to stem from giving control of the executive branch to one party or another at all the levels it operates.

Excellent Post .............

[Husky Jerk]

I guess I know what to think about Bush, but all I hear about Kerry is the wafflling back and forth thing, just looking for some opinions.
Spider, how is Casper these days, went to NCHS myself. When I left, you could buy a house on a corner lot for under 10k. Haven't been back. Miss the outdoors there though.

[Spider]

Originally Posted by Husky Jerk

I guess I know what to think about Bush, but all I hear about Kerry is the wafflling back and forth thing, just looking for some opinions.
Spider, how is Casper these days, went to NCHS myself. When I left, you could buy a house on a corner lot for under 10k. Haven't been back. Miss the outdoors there though.

Casper is growing like a weed Bro ......... I know what you mean I bought my house for 17 Grand with Finished Basement ( old though ) Now I couldnt touch this house for under 60 Grand ...........
alot going on around here , we have a full time ABC now added a couple of Radio stations ........... My son wants to go to NCHS ....... My Daughter wants to go to Kelly Walsh , that should be fun

[Rascal]

Ah! I copied the results onto a word document. I'm such a nerd.

Bush got 65%, Clark 55%, Edwards 50%, Kerry 40%.

Not a big majority for Bush, but then that's what I expected. To bad Clark didn't get the nomination, I might have joined the dark side

[Husky Jerk]

WOW, civil conversation in the Politics thread? I didn't think it would happen. Kudos OM'ers.

Spider, if that rivalry is anything like it used to be, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. Is there a rock station out there yet. All I remember is KTRS??
Thanks for the link btw.

I get the feeling sometimes that this is a giant crossroads we're looking at here, with serious consequences down the line, and it sure gets overwhelming trying to sift through all the BS to make informed decisions.
Anybody else feel physically tired watching the news these days?? Thank god RObb is banned or I fear this would set off a 50 post diatribe.

[Spider]

Originally Posted by Husky Jerk

WOW, civil conversation in the Politics thread? I didn't think it would happen. Kudos OM'ers.

Spider, if that rivalry is anything like it used to be, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. Is there a rock station out there yet. All I remember is KTRS??
Thanks for the link btw.

I get the feeling sometimes that this is a giant crossroads we're looking at here, with serious consequences down the line, and it sure gets overwhelming trying to sift through all the BS to make informed decisions.
Anybody else feel physically tired watching the news these days?? Thank god RObb is banned or I fear this would set off a 50 post diatribe.

Bro . I wont even turn on the news anymore ....... if you want ot stay up on Casper events http://www.caspernetwork.com/
or http://www.trib.com/

[Blueflame]

Originally Posted by Husky Jerk

WOW, civil conversation in the Politics thread? I didn't think it would happen. Kudos OM'ers.

Spider, if that rivalry is anything like it used to be, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. Is there a rock station out there yet. All I remember is KTRS??
Thanks for the link btw.

I get the feeling sometimes that this is a giant crossroads we're looking at here, with serious consequences down the line, and it sure gets overwhelming trying to sift through all the BS to make informed decisions.
Anybody else feel physically tired watching the news these days?? Thank god RObb is banned or I fear this would set off a 50 post diatribe.

You could always search endtimes.com for the lengthy tome he would be posting...

[Rohirrim]

Here's my two cents:

Taking the lives of both candidates into account (up to now) I have to say that Kerry scores about an 90% on my character scale. I'd give Bush about a 35%. I believe that the office of POTUS is so intense that nobody can reliably predict how a person is going to behave once they're in the oval office, but character is, to me, the chief indicator of how someone will respond under pressure.

It seems to me that Bush has lived a life where he was moved from pillow to pillow like some kind of prince. His academic record is mediocre, at best. I haven't seen any examples of him choosing goals and forging out on his own. He went to the schools Poppy and friends set him up in. The way his connections skipped him over a bunch of other Americans into the NG is disgraceful, and whether or not he fulfilled that commitment is still in question. He went into the oil business (the joke in Texas is that Dubya is the only man in history who couldn't find oil in Texas) and got bailed out when Arbutus (Ar"bust"us - as it's known in Texas) tanked. Then Poppy's buddies set him up with the Texas Rangers, followed by the Texas state house (the most powerless state exec post in the country). But, Bush gave up the booze. That showed some character.

In his first term, IMO, he has been a puppet. 100 of the offices he filled, from the EPA to the FDA, he filled with former corporate lobbyists who previously lobbied (usually against the policies of) those same agencies. His economic policies are heavily tilted toward the super wealthy and multi-nationals. His political philosophy is far right of the mainstream. The injection of his religious beliefs into the political arena is a dangerous precedent to set. And yet, his history tells me that he is, even now, not the man calling the shots. Whatever, this whole Iraq scenario has been a mess - really lousy management at all levels. America is not safer, no matter how many times Bush says it. In fact, just the opposite is true. Plus, I hate deficits - and we now have the biggest one in history - and growing.


Kerry was the son of a diplomat. He grew up all over the world. One thing I read is that he used to ride his bicycle through post-war Berlin, still in ruins. He saw first hand the fruits of war. He was a hockey player in high school and loves athletic competition. He went to Yale and did very well. When the Deputy Secretary of Defense came and asked the seniors at Yale to sign up for Vietnam because their economic class was not being represented, Kerry signed up. Many right wingers like to portray his service on river boats as if it took place on the backlot of some Hollywood studio - as if the bullets weren't real, or as if it was some nefarious scheme of Kerry's to enhance his political career. That's how low the political dialogue has sunk. Kerry returned with 3 Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star and a Silver Star. Disillusioned with the war, he asked for, and was given his discharge. He became a "star" in the anti-war movement, though he does admit that his "youthful exuberance" led him to make claims he is no longer proud of - like the war criminal claims. I accept the apology. Others don't. When the Vietnam Veterans Against the War became too radical, Kerry decided the best way to fight for better government was to join it. He quit the organization and entered law school. He graduated and served as a prosecutor in Boston - very successfully.

Once in the Senate, he bacame what's known as an "investigative" rather than a "legislative" senator. He was a key investigator in the BCCI case and Iran Contra. His investigation led to an old Democratic stalwart, Clarke Clifford, coming under the cloud of BCCI. Ted Kennedy and others hinted that Kerry should lay off. He didn't, and Clifford's career was ruined.

Between the two men's characters, I see no comparison. IMO, Bush has pretty much partied through life on a free ride ticket. Kerry has set goals, pursued them, and achieved them. He has had important mentors, yes, but he has done the work. Kerry has set himself against adversity, even combat, and succeeded. Bush seems to have avoided adversity at every turn.

Also, Kerry has come in contact with every strata of American life, from the top economic classes to the bottom. He spent much time abroad, learned and speaks numerous languages, and had to work to pay his own way. His family was upper class, but at the prep school his diplomat father got him into, Kerry was considered at the bottom of the economic scale - and was discriminated against because of it. Bush has spent his life looking through the windows of a limousine. The only people of other classes that he has come into contact with have been the "help."

Anyway, this is my take on the histories, educations and characters of the two men. Their politics would be a whole other post.

[Rock Chalk]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

Here's my two cents:

Taking the lives of both candidates into account (up to now) I have to say that Kerry scores about an 90% on my character scale. I'd give Bush about a 35%. I believe that the office of POTUS is so intense that nobody can reliably predict how a person is going to behave once they're in the oval office, but character is, to me, the chief indicator of how someone will respond under pressure.

It seems to me that Bush has lived a life where he was moved from pillow to pillow like some kind of prince. His academic record is mediocre, at best. I haven't seen any examples of him choosing goals and forging out on his own. He went to the schools Poppy and friends set him up in. The way his connections skipped him over a bunch of other Americans into the NG is disgraceful, and whether or not he fulfilled that commitment is still in question. He went into the oil business (the joke in Texas is that Dubya is the only man in history who couldn't find oil in Texas) and got bailed out when Arbutus (Ar"bust"us - as it's known in Texas) tanked. Then Poppy's buddies set him up with the Texas Rangers, followed by the Texas state house (the most powerless state exec post in the country). But, Bush gave up the booze. That showed some character.

In his first term, IMO, he has been a puppet. 100 of the offices he filled, from the EPA to the FDA, he filled with former corporate lobbyists who previously lobbied (usually against the policies of) those same agencies. His economic policies are heavily tilted toward the super wealthy and multi-nationals. His political philosophy is far right of the mainstream. The injection of his religious beliefs into the political arena is a dangerous precedent to set. And yet, his history tells me that he is, even now, not the man calling the shots. Whatever, this whole Iraq scenario has been a mess - really lousy management at all levels. America is not safer, no matter how many times Bush says it. In fact, just the opposite is true. Plus, I hate deficits - and we now have the biggest one in history - and growing.


Kerry was the son of a diplomat. He grew up all over the world. One thing I read is that he used to ride his bicycle through post-war Berlin, still in ruins. He saw first hand the fruits of war. He was a hockey player in high school and loves athletic competition. He went to Yale and did very well. When the Deputy Secretary of Defense came and asked the seniors at Yale to sign up for Vietnam because their economic class was not being represented, Kerry signed up. Many right wingers like to portray his service on river boats as if it took place on the backlot of some Hollywood studio - as if the bullets weren't real, or as if it was some nefarious scheme of Kerry's to enhance his political career. That's how low the political dialogue has sunk. Kerry returned with 3 Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star and a Silver Star. Disillusioned with the war, he asked for, and was given his discharge. He became a "star" in the anti-war movement, though he does admit that his "youthful exuberance" led him to make claims he is no longer proud of - like the war criminal claims. I accept the apology. Others don't. When the Vietnam Veterans Against the War became too radical, Kerry decided the best way to fight for better government was to join it. He quit the organization and entered law school. He graduated and served as a prosecutor in Boston - very successfully.

Once in the Senate, he bacame what's known as an "investigative" rather than a "legislative" senator. He was a key investigator in the BCCI case and Iran Contra. His investigation led to an old Democratic stalwart, Clarke Clifford, coming under the cloud of BCCI. Ted Kennedy and others hinted that Kerry should lay off. He didn't, and Clifford's career was ruined.

Between the two men's characters, I see no comparison. IMO, Bush has pretty much partied through life on a free ride ticket. Kerry has set goals, pursued them, and achieved them. He has had important mentors, yes, but he has done the work. Kerry has set himself against adversity, even combat, and succeeded. Bush seems to have avoided adversity at every turn.

Also, Kerry has come in contact with every strata of American life, from the top economic classes to the bottom. He spent much time abroad, learned and speaks numerous languages, and had to work to pay his own way. His family was upper class, but at the prep school his diplomat father got him into, Kerry was considered at the bottom of the economic scale - and was discriminated against because of it. Bush has spent his life looking through the windows of a limousine. The only people of other classes that he has come into contact with have been the "help."

Anyway, this is my take on the histories, educations and characters of the two men. Their politics would be a whole other post.

Obviously we have different definitions of "Character".

Character to me, is having the courage to stand up for your convictions regardless of popular opinion. Having the courage to take a stance on an issue, whether the voters agree with you or not.

Bush certainly isn't the smartest President but then again he is not as stupid as half the tweedle ***** on this board seem to think either. He did, afterall, become PResident of the United States of America. He did go to Harvard. So his daddy got him in, he managed to maintain a C average and for Harvard that is fairly impressive.

If kerry could take a side, stick to it regardless of where he is campaigning I might have more respect for him. Bush took his fight to Iraq, right or wrong, but he stuck to his beliefs regardless of what people thought of it. He felt that this was necessary and went with it. Clearly it has not been the most popular move, but because of his character, he has stuck with his tactics and goals.

Kerry just flip flops back and forth.

[Spider]

Originally Posted by AlecRaenos

Obviously we have different definitions of "Character".

Character to me, is having the courage to stand up for your convictions regardless of popular opinion. Having the courage to take a stance on an issue, whether the voters agree with you or not.

.

you talk about Courage .................. LMMFAO that is

[Blueflame]

Well, the discussion remained civil through 20 posts anyway...

[mosca]

just for kicks, i went to this presidentmatch.com and got some pretty strange results - kerry 59% (pretty sure i won't be voting for him), bush 49% (thinking of voting for him, but not definite), and dennis kucinich of all people 46% (no way in hell i'd vote for him, even if he was on the democratic ticket). for some reason those are the only 3 candidates listed. *shrug*

[TexanBob]

Originally Posted by mosca

just for kicks, i went to this presidentmatch.com and got some pretty strange results - kerry 59% (pretty sure i won't be voting for him), bush 49% (thinking of voting for him, but not definite), and dennis kucinich of all people 46% (no way in hell i'd vote for him, even if he was on the democratic ticket). for some reason those are the only 3 candidates listed. *shrug*

Yes, I was disappointed that Time/AOL News does not consider Nader or the other small party candidates as worthy of inclusion. That seems biased to me. If you hold Libertarian, Green Party or Constitution Party views, why should you not be told that these alternatives exist?

I think the presidential debates should also be more open. I'd like there to be a 5% rule where a candidate would have to register 5% in national polls to be included (there has to be some minimal threshhold to keep out the complete cranks) but, if they can get 5%, let them in on the debates and let their voices be heard.

Truth of the matter is that both major parties are controlled mostly by Yalies and Crimsons, Skull and Bones types, the sons of the privileged, that continue to make bad policy and write bad laws that the rest of us are forced to live by. If it were mine to do, I would put a 30-year ban on any upper administration figured who has attended or taught at Yale or Harvard so we could have a generation to purge the country from some of their screwy ideas.

If the common man ran this country instead of the elites (whether Republican or Democrat), I guarantee you it would be much different.