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Old 11-26-2013, 08:29 AM   #1
Gutless Drunk
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Do you really think this is effective or is it just old-school neanderthal football culture? I guess it's not a black & white deal, but I think it was a bad idea last game.
I think you can also hurt the team by taking your talent off the field. I'm not certain they gain anything by benching- nobody wants to fumble. If it's Ridley and he has fumbled 4 games in a row I can see it. But this one fumble and you banished stuff is kind of extreme.

FWIW, Tom Nalen agrees -

As far as what went wrong for the Broncos, Nalen said they were running the ball well and towards the end of the game when Knowshon Moreno was starting to wear down they should have played Montee Ball more.

“Ball looked like the best back out there. He had the most explosive burst in his running game and looked like he was very confident,” Nalen said. “By sitting him on the sidelines because he fumbled … I think it hurt the team a little bit and maybe hurt his confidence.”


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Old 11-26-2013, 08:31 AM   #2
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The few bursts I've seen from Ball in the last several games have been really encouraging. You absolutely cannot give up fumbles, but I agree that pulling any good RB after one fumble is not the best way to instill confidence. I think you maybe pull them from a series, have a chat about holding the rock, give a little encouragement, then send them back out there. If they fumble twice in a game, then you've got a serious problem.
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Old 11-26-2013, 08:34 AM   #3
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My issue with it is that we ran a crippled Moreno at a crucial point in the game instead of going with a fresh Ball. That's just stupid. Two carries for a guy who literally limped off the field moments before, with the game on the line.
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Old 11-26-2013, 08:45 AM   #4
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My issue with it is that we ran a crippled Moreno at a crucial point in the game instead of going with a fresh Ball. That's just stupid. Two carries for a guy who literally limped off the field moments before, with the game on the line.
all true, but what is also true is that Ball does not seem to know the plays, has trouble lining up, cant honor a blocking assignment and his insecurity about the play call is probably at the foundation of his lack of confidence, insecurity and fumbling!
CJ looked lopst when he too entered the game!
maybe hillman, who looked like he knew the plays in pre-season, can pull a moreno and go from dog house to penthouse?
Save Ball for the goal line where he knows the playcalls and formations.
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Old 11-26-2013, 08:53 AM   #5
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all true, but what is also true is that Ball does not seem to know the plays, has trouble lining up, cant honor a blocking assignment and his insecurity about the play call is probably at the foundation of his lack of confidence, insecurity and fumbling!
CJ looked lopst when he too entered the game!
maybe hillman, who looked like he knew the plays in pre-season, can pull a moreno and go from dog house to penthouse?
Save Ball for the goal line where he knows the playcalls and formations.
Hillman still has small hands, and not the strongest arms. That's not going to change. He is good if you get him outside the edge, but runs up the middle he will still be getting stripped.
Obviously the backup RBs aren't getting enough reps if they don't know the plays.
That is a coaching failure...we are 11 games into the season. This stuff should be down pat.
Or maybe the RBs all take direction from PM on each play. Moreno knows what to do better, but maybe, again, that's cause he is getting nearly all the practice reps.
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Old 11-26-2013, 10:07 AM   #6
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Hillman still has small hands, and not the strongest arms. That's not going to change. He is good if you get him outside the edge, but runs up the middle he will still be getting stripped.
Obviously the backup RBs aren't getting enough reps if they don't know the plays.
That is a coaching failure...we are 11 games into the season. This stuff should be down pat.
Or maybe the RBs all take direction from PM on each play. Moreno knows what to do better, but maybe, again, that's cause he is getting nearly all the practice reps.
I agree with the coaching failure here. There is no way CJ should have looked that lost out there. Peyton had to pick him up and move him on one play. I understand not knowing the whole play book at this point but he looked clueless and that is 100 percent coaching.
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Old 11-26-2013, 09:03 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by CHEF LUIGI View Post
all true, but what is also true is that Ball does not seem to know the plays, has trouble lining up, cant honor a blocking assignment and his insecurity about the play call is probably at the foundation of his lack of confidence, insecurity and fumbling!
CJ looked lopst when he too entered the game!
maybe hillman, who looked like he knew the plays in pre-season, can pull a moreno and go from dog house to penthouse?
Save Ball for the goal line where he knows the playcalls and formations.
Not true about Ball, he knows the playbook. Maybe earlier in the year, but not now. Ball is much more valuable than just goal line. However, I agree with you on CJ. His problem is he doesn't get reps, but he will this week.

Hillman will get a second chance this week, I believe. Hopefully, he takes advantage of it.
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Old 11-27-2013, 11:17 AM   #8
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My issue with it is that we ran a crippled Moreno at a crucial point in the game instead of going with a fresh Ball. That's just stupid. Two carries for a guy who literally limped off the field moments before, with the game on the line.
AND a backup CB against a top 3 WR in the league. Putrid play calling right there!
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Old 11-26-2013, 08:35 AM   #9
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I think JDR's move of benching Ball after the fumble absolutely hurt the Broncos. Now, I'm a big Anderson fan too but the fact is that the muffed handoff was because Manning and Anderson are not used to each other and consequently there was almost another turnover.

Ball should have been playing. Period. End of story. Shame on JDR for being such a pansy ass HC.
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Old 11-26-2013, 08:39 AM   #10
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The person I feel bad for, is Anderson. Manning botched the handoff, and Anderson took all the blame...
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Old 11-27-2013, 10:55 AM   #11
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The person I feel bad for, is Anderson. Manning botched the handoff, and Anderson took all the blame...
Bingo. He had a nice run off the bat too. The first replay showed a bad handoff and the coaches up in the box had to have seen it too.
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Old 11-26-2013, 08:45 AM   #12
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I think JDR's move of benching Ball after the fumble absolutely hurt the Broncos. Now, I'm a big Anderson fan too but the fact is that the muffed handoff was because Manning and Anderson are not used to each other and consequently there was almost another turnover.

Ball should have been playing. Period. End of story. Shame on JDR for being such a pansy ass HC.
Agree 100%. Ball in the game late when Moreno went to the bench could have led us to a win. He was running well.
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Old 11-26-2013, 08:50 AM   #13
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I think JDR's move of benching Ball after the fumble absolutely hurt the Broncos. Now, I'm a big Anderson fan too but the fact is that the muffed handoff was because Manning and Anderson are not used to each other and consequently there was almost another turnover.

Ball should have been playing. Period. End of story. Shame on JDR for being such a pansy ass HC.
I agree, but Belichick did the same thing with TWO of his running backs.

Just as someone who's neurotic, i think its hurtful to bench guys for fumbling because they will be terrified of making the same mistake next time out. And while that sounds like the point, it actually makes you tentative, not only opening you up for the same mistake again, but naturally making you less aggressive.
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Old 11-26-2013, 09:19 AM   #14
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The few bursts I've seen from Ball in the last several games have been really encouraging. You absolutely cannot give up fumbles, but I agree that pulling any good RB after one fumble is not the best way to instill confidence. I think you maybe pull them from a series, have a chat about holding the rock, give a little encouragement, then send them back out there. If they fumble twice in a game, then you've got a serious problem.
He hasn't fumbled once. He has fumbled multiple times in multiple games. Can you really keep giving them a stern talking to and putting them back out without having confidence in them to do their job?

Every RB is going to fumble. But this guy's averaging a fumble every 28 touches. If KM did this, he'd fumble once a game based on how many touches he gets.
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Old 11-26-2013, 09:53 AM   #15
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He hasn't fumbled once. He has fumbled multiple times in multiple games. Can you really keep giving them a stern talking to and putting them back out without having confidence in them to do their job?

Every RB is going to fumble. But this guy's averaging a fumble every 28 touches. If KM did this, he'd fumble once a game based on how many touches he gets.
That is an argument that one could make. I disagree with it though, and here is why:

1. Ball is a rookie. Not an excuse, but a fact that he may not be totally adjusted to the NFL this year. This could be reason to keep him from getting carries, but also gives reason for him to get more carries to learn the game at its pace.

2. Ball has fumbled 3 times this year. If we do a stats breakdown at his carries (75) to fumbles, then it works out to be one fumble per 25 carries, which isn't good. However, 3 fumbles IS NOT multiple times in multiple games. Its 1 fumble in three separate games.

3. The hit that knocked the ball out in the NE game was Fletcher's helmet landing perfectly on top of Ball's forearm, forcing his arm down. Had the hit been any lower or higher, Ball's forearm would likely not have moved. Granted, Ball should have secured the ball with both arms as soon as he saw contact coming.

So #s 1, 2, and 3 aren't necessarily super encouraging, but take them as they are with:

4. The Pats game was his first fumble since week 3.

5. From the start of Week 3 to right before his fumble in week 12, Ball had 54 carries with only 1 fumble.

6. This was fumble #1 in 7 games played.

This shows signs of improvement and development. A dude has only fumbled once in 54 carries and could be a huge reliever/difference maker and is young should get another chance. I can understand the argument against it, and I would be on that boat too, had he fumbled multiple times in any single game. Or if his sample size showed a true pace of 1 fumble per 25 carries (or even up to 40 carries). His pace of fumbling though doesn't appear that bad right now.

Last edited by Irish Stout; 11-26-2013 at 09:56 AM..
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Old 11-26-2013, 10:03 AM   #16
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That is an argument that one could make. I disagree with it though, and here is why:

1. Ball is a rookie. Not an excuse, but a fact that he may not be totally adjusted to the NFL this year. This could be reason to keep him from getting carries, but also gives reason for him to get more carries to learn the game at its pace.

2. Ball has fumbled 3 times this year. If we do a stats breakdown at his carries (75) to fumbles, then it works out to be one fumble per 25 carries, which isn't good. However, 3 fumbles IS NOT multiple times in multiple games. Its 1 fumble in three separate games.

3. The hit that knocked the ball out in the NE game was Fletcher's helmet landing perfectly on top of Ball's forearm, forcing his arm down. Had the hit been any lower or higher, Ball's forearm would likely not have moved. Granted, Ball should have secured the ball with both arms as soon as he saw contact coming.

So #s 1, 2, and 3 aren't necessarily super encouraging, but take them as they are with:

4. The Pats game was his first fumble since week 3.

5. From the start of Week 3 to right before his fumble in week 12, Ball had 54 carries with only 1 fumble.

6. This was fumble #1 in 7 games played.

This shows signs of improvement and development. A dude has only fumbled once in 54 carries and could be a huge reliever/difference maker and is young should get another chance. I can understand the argument against it, and I would be on that boat too, had he fumbled multiple times in any single game. Or if his sample size showed a true pace of 1 fumble per 25 carries (or even up to 40 carries). His pace of fumbling though doesn't appear that bad right now.
ball had like 400 carries in college without a fumble. Thats why I suggest his uncertainty about the play is at the core of his fumbling.
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Old 11-26-2013, 11:01 AM   #17
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The few bursts I've seen from Ball in the last several games have been really encouraging. You absolutely cannot give up fumbles, but I agree that pulling any good RB after one fumble is not the best way to instill confidence. I think you maybe pull them from a series, have a chat about holding the rock, give a little encouragement, then send them back out there. If they fumble twice in a game, then you've got a serious problem.
This.

I tend make the player stand right next to me "in the doghouse" and gauge where he's at emotionally and mentally. If all is well, then send him in on the exact situation with some "now go kick some ass.... grrrrrrrrrrr" reinforcement . You got to get them back on the horse. The key is to know when to finally sit them. But it can't just be an emotional reactionary thing.

Players are going to screw up. Unfortunately it's sometimes the best teacher. If you don't handle it the right way, no one learns anything. Then it was all for nothing. That's where you gotta know your players.
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Old 11-26-2013, 11:04 AM   #18
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Running Back: Eddie Lacy, GB (+4.5)

With Aaron Rodgers out, where would this team be without Lacy? He put the team on his back and carried them to an improbable tie that could be crucial come the end of the year, breaking nine tackles in the process.

Honorable Mention: Knowshown Moreno (DEN)
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...-of-week-12-2/

What could have been. Sigh.
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Old 11-26-2013, 11:06 AM   #19
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Lacy or Bernard would have been awesome. Even Bell -- because at least he isn't fumbling. I knew Ball would be terrible.

Name the last good RB to come out of Wisconsin?
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Old 11-26-2013, 11:14 AM   #20
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Lacy or Bernard would have been awesome. Even Bell -- because at least he isn't fumbling. I knew Ball would be terrible.

Name the last good RB to come out of Wisconsin?
some lame heisman trophy winner who eats blackberry pie on thanksgiving week-end because he just had the best pro game of his life.
Played for one of those obscure NFL teams in the middle of the country that nobody watches or cares about... great dane or something.
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Old 11-26-2013, 01:04 PM   #21
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The few bursts I've seen from Ball in the last several games have been really encouraging. You absolutely cannot give up fumbles, but I agree that pulling any good RB after one fumble is not the best way to instill confidence. I think you maybe pull them from a series, have a chat about holding the rock, give a little encouragement, then send them back out there. If they fumble twice in a game, then you've got a serious problem.
I agree pulling the back after 1 fumble is a bad move, but when it is showing to be habit what option is there? Ball has had a season where he fumbles the ball quite a bit. Until he shows a change in that he should get pulled in favor of someone else who might hang onto the rock.
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Old 11-26-2013, 08:46 AM   #22
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In many cases, I agree with the benching, especially with the young guys. Apparently, the technique has worked for Moreno as he hasn't fumbled all year, and I don't remember him fumbling last year after he got out of the doghouse. So maybe it works with some guys.

However, in the case with Ball, I agree with Nalen. I think it hurt the team not having him out there. He was very effective and moving the chains a bit himself. CJ looked like the moment was a little too big for him at times. Ball's benching could have been for a couple of series or so, but near the end of the 4th and in OT, I think he could have really helped, and maybe Moreno doesn't get hurt.
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Old 11-26-2013, 08:51 AM   #23
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In many cases, I agree with the benching, especially with the young guys. Apparently, the technique has worked for Moreno as he hasn't fumbled all year, and I don't remember him fumbling last year after he got out of the doghouse. So maybe it works with some guys.

However, in the case with Ball, I agree with Nalen. I think it hurt the team not having him out there. He was very effective and moving the chains a bit himself. CJ looked like the moment was a little too big for him at times. Ball's benching could have been for a couple of series or so, but near the end of the 4th and in OT, I think he could have really helped, and maybe Moreno doesn't get hurt.
It looked like Moreno got hurt getting up off the field. I love his style but if you're stuck under a big ugly, don't twist your ankle or knock it on the guys helmet trying to be the first guy off of the field.
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Old 11-26-2013, 08:48 AM   #24
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Absolutely agree with OP. Sit him a series, give him a part on the back and send him back out. Ball will be fine. We definitely could have used him during that OT period.
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Old 11-26-2013, 08:52 AM   #25
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Absolutely agree with OP. Sit him a series, give him a part on the back and send him back out. Ball will be fine. We definitely could have used him during that OT period.
CJ was running pretty well too. It was just a mistake to bring knowshon back on a gimpy leg. Props to him for sucking it up, but they should have known not to send a guy back out there that was on a knee and wincing only a minute before.
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