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Old 10-09-2013, 12:01 AM   #1
Rohirrim
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Default Right Wing Lunatic Fringe Says Default Might Be Good

“It really is irresponsible of the president to try to scare the markets,” said Senator Rand Paul, Republican of Kentucky. “If you don’t raise your debt ceiling, all you’re saying is, ‘We’re going to be balancing our budget.’ So if you put it in those terms, all these scary terms of, ‘Oh my goodness, the world’s going to end’ — if we balance the budget, the world’s going to end? Why don’t we spend what comes in?”

“If you propose it that way,” he said of not raising the debt limit, “the American public will say that sounds like a pretty reasonable idea.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/09/us...-bad.html?_r=0
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:24 AM   #2
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I rarely agree with Friedman, but I have to agree with this paragraph:

President Obama is leading. He is protecting the very rules that are the foundation of any healthy democracy. He is leading by not giving in to this blackmail, because if he did he would undermine the principle of majority rule that is the bedrock of our democracy. That system guarantees the minority the right to be heard and to run for office and become the majority, but it also ensures that once voters have spoken, and their representatives have voted — and, if legally challenged, the Supreme Court has also ruled in their favor — the majority decision holds sway. A minority of a minority, which has lost every democratic means to secure its agenda, has no right to now threaten to tank our economy if its demands are not met. If we do not preserve this system, nothing will ever be settled again in American politics. There would be nothing to prevent a future Democratic Congress from using the exact same blackmail to try to overturn a law enacted by their Republican rivals.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/09/op....html?src=recg

The Republicans have to clean their own house. They have allowed their lunatic fringe to set up a situation which no president could ever surrender to. The minority wants to unpin a fundamental strut of our government and kick it loose. If the president allows them to do it, he'll be excoriated by all future presidents. For the good of our way of government, he cannot not allow the lunatic fringe to succeed.
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:27 AM   #3
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Love this guy from the OP:

Representative Ted Yoho, a freshman Florida Republican who had no experience in elective office before this year, said the largest economy on earth should learn from his large-animal veterinary practice.

“Everybody talks about how destabilizing doing this will be on the markets,” he said. “And you’ll see that initially, but heck, I’ve seen that in my business. When you go through that, and you address the problem and you address your creditors and say, ‘Listen, we’re going to pay you. We’re just not going to pay you today, but we’re going to pay you with interest, and we will pay everybody that’s due money’ — if you did that, the world would say America is finally addressing their problem.”


We got some real Einsteins here.
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Old 10-09-2013, 04:48 AM   #4
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Let's compare this to maybe a real life example. A young college student has a credit card. This student has maxed out their first card. In order to keep up with financial obligations, rent, car pmt, etc the student gets a second card and gets cash advances so they can "pay" the first card. Rather than cutting costs, paying down the credit card, the student is raising their own debt ceiling. Stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!

What the United States is doing is not much different.

Speaking of LUNACY. If we don't pull another credit card Social Security is on the chopping block. http://blogs.marketwatch.com/encore/...iling-warning/

Ro...Please explain to me what we are doing now isn't TOTALLY INSANE?


How can we possibly raise a little more money without taxing the American people to death? Just so happens the United States has 650,000,000 acres of public land. Most of that is out west. Just so happens much of this land is sitting over oil and gas.........Even if it's not over gas and oil surely there are people willing to buy some from US. Ah but it doesn't really work that way. The credit card machine is gobbling up more land. Nice to own your own printing press!

Meanwhile our government is scaring old people into believing they are going to lose their social security checks if we don't plunge ourselves into more debt.

Come on Ro....

Last edited by Meck77; 10-09-2013 at 05:38 AM..
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Old 10-09-2013, 05:55 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Meck77 View Post
Let's compare this to maybe a real life example. A young college student has a credit card. This student has maxed out their first card. In order to keep up with financial obligations, rent, car pmt, etc the student gets a second card and gets cash advances so they can "pay" the first card. Rather than cutting costs, paying down the credit card, the student is raising their own debt ceiling. Stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!

What the United States is doing is not much different.

Speaking of LUNACY. If we don't pull another credit card Social Security is on the chopping block. http://blogs.marketwatch.com/encore/...iling-warning/

Ro...Please explain to me what we are doing now isn't TOTALLY INSANE?


How can we possibly raise a little more money without taxing the American people to death? Just so happens the United States has 650,000,000 acres of public land. Most of that is out west. Just so happens much of this land is sitting over oil and gas.........Even if it's not over gas and oil surely there are people willing to buy some from US. Ah but it doesn't really work that way. The credit card machine is gobbling up more land. Nice to own your own printing press!

Meanwhile our government is scaring old people into believing they are going to lose their social security checks if we don't plunge ourselves into more debt.

Come on Ro....
you are obviously to much of a simpleton to understand the debt limit. its about paying the bills we have already built.
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Old 10-09-2013, 08:18 AM   #6
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you are obviously to much of a simpleton to understand the debt limit. its about paying the bills we have already built.


Projecting much?

debt ceil·ing
noun
1.
an upper limit set on the amount of money that a government may borrow.
"on Friday, Congress raised the debt ceiling by $800 million"
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Old 10-11-2013, 05:49 AM   #7
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you are obviously to much of a simpleton to understand the debt limit. its about paying the bills we have already built.
That's exactly correct. These bills have already hit. All they are doing is paying it. Defaulting is a none option, ask Warren Buffet and all the other billionaires. They can't all be wrong.
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Old 10-09-2013, 06:58 AM   #8
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Let's compare this to maybe a real life example. A young college student has a credit card.
The government isn't a private individual. It's not a business, either.

What is it with some people that they think government is one or both? It is not.
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Old 10-09-2013, 07:44 AM   #9
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Wells Fargo Bank economist Scott Anderson has said of a default, “It would be an earth-shattering event. It’s taken as given that U.S. Treasuries are a safe asset. Once you question that assumption, it shakes the foundations of global finance and the way it’s been established over the last 50 years.”

University of California, Berkeley, economist Barry Eichengreen, a world-renowned expert on the international monetary system, warned that a debt default could lead to a run on the dollar if foreigners come to feel that the U.S. is being run by irresponsible leaders. As he put it:

“If there is a threat to the dollar, it stems not from monetary policy, but from the fiscal side. What is most likely to precipitate a dollar crash is evidence that U.S. budgets are not being made by responsible adults. A U.S. Congress engaged in political grandstanding might fail to raise the debt ceiling, triggering a technical default. Evidence that the inmates were running the asylum would almost certainly precipitate the wholesale liquidation of U.S. Treasury bonds by foreign investors.”
http://capitalgainsandgames.com/blog...ett-debt-limit
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Old 10-09-2013, 07:49 AM   #10
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Another good read on the subject.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...hinks_the.html
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Old 10-09-2013, 07:53 AM   #11
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If you look at members’ actions and votes instead of their statements, the number of Republicans in the House who favor a clean CR and oppose the Cruz-driven strategy of shutdown and hostage-taking is not 21. It’s 0. The entire House Republican caucus is responsible for its shutdown-based legislative strategy. The only difference among the members is that Tea Party conservatives have the decency to admit what they’re up to.
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-m...licans-2013-10

^ There are effectively no moderates left in the party.

Sullivan states it better than I can:

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The purge has worked, hasn’t it? There is effectively no Republican party any more. There is a radical movement to destroy the modern American state and eviscerate its institutions in favor of restoring a mythical, elysian, majority-white, nineteenth-century past. This crisis is proving that more powerfully than even watching Fox. We need to see what is in front of our nose: a cold civil war has broken out between those properly called conservatives, defending the credit of the government, empirical reality, and adjustments to modern life and those properly called radical reactionaries declaring our current elected president and Senate as illegitimate actors, bent on the destruction of America, and therefore necessitating total political warfare, even to the point of threatening to destroy the global economy.
http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/...e-republicans/
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:30 AM   #12
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Meck:

The debt ceiling is not like your family's credit card. Whoever is telling you this is either ignorant or trying to deceive you.

When Congress passes a budget, it is voting to spend more than it takes in. It’s been doing so (with one brief exception in the 1830s) since the earliest days of our republic.

It makes up the difference by issuing debt. People enthusiastically purchase this debt (treasury bonds) because it's the safest investment in the world. Or at least it was.

Last edited by Blart; 10-09-2013 at 10:34 AM..
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:38 AM   #13
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The left's dream is to remove all economic restraint on their dreams and ambitions.

Enlightened Progressives should be free to vote for all the good stuff the United Trial Lawyers can imagineer without being distracted by all the petty annoyances of "unintended consequences" or "how to pay for it"
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:39 AM   #14
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The left's dream is to remove all economic restraint on their dreams and ambitions.
The right's dream is to let the wealthy and corporate interests **** us and the planet.

A couple of Kochs right up the chute.
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:47 AM   #15
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The right's dream is to let the wealthy and corporate interests **** us and the planet.

A couple of Kochs right up the chute.
Next you'll tell me it can all be fixed by the Obama Administration turning its technical acumen towards setting up the "Expedia of Carbon Taxes"
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:14 PM   #16
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So, BB, you think a default would be good? No worries?
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:26 PM   #17
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The right's dream is to let the wealthy and corporate interests **** us and the planet.

A couple of Kochs right up the chute.
This is a farty old canard. Corporate interests have a heavy hand in both major US parties. Who is pushing for amnesty? Business and unions in industries purged of Americans now serving illegal alien members for the most part. Ethnic and religious lobbies a far 2nd place.

Then of course you have a certain political party whose old white blue collar core jumped ship to the GOP in the 80s.

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Old 10-11-2013, 01:07 PM   #18
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It makes up the difference by issuing debt. People enthusiastically purchase this debt (treasury bonds) because it's the safest investment in the world. Or at least it was.
The GOOD thing about the republicans creating a fuss is our debt WILL be less desirable to purchase and our government will have no choice to cut expenses thus limiting the need for debt ceiling increases.

I'm convinced the less the government tries to regulate and "fix" things the better off we are. Gridlock is actually a good thing.

Just got off the phone with one of the biggest real estate bankers in Colorado. In the last three years the government has thrown 208 pieces of legislation at the lenders. 208!

One of the big one's to hit is January 2014. If you own have more than 5 owner carries that you own and want to do a 6th you will have to abide by the same restrictions as the banks do. People joke about Obama being a communist but it really is heading there!

Owner carry for those who may not know is if you own a property out right and act as the bank and seller finance to the new buyer essentially holding the not and collecting payments from them.
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Old 10-11-2013, 01:27 PM   #19
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Just got off the phone with one of the biggest real estate bankers in Colorado. In the last three years the government has thrown 208 pieces of legislation at the lenders. 208!
Since it was the "real estate bankers" who nearly collapsed the entire economy, yeah, the government is going to clamp down on 'em.

WTF did they expect?
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Old 10-11-2013, 02:23 PM   #20
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Since it was the "real estate bankers" who nearly collapsed the entire economy, yeah, the government is going to clamp down on 'em.

WTF did they expect?
No ****. Are these people living in a bubble, or what?
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Old 10-11-2013, 03:43 PM   #21
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In the last three years the government has thrown 208 pieces of legislation at the lenders.
They should have thrown 208 of them in prison.
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Old 10-12-2013, 01:48 AM   #22
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The GOOD thing about the republicans creating a fuss is our debt WILL be less desirable to purchase and our government will have no choice to cut expenses thus limiting the need for debt ceiling increases.

I'm convinced the less the government tries to regulate and "fix" things the better off we are. Gridlock is actually a good thing.Just got off the phone with one of the biggest real estate bankers in Colorado. In the last three years the government has thrown 208 pieces of legislation at the lenders. 208!

One of the big one's to hit is January 2014. If you own have more than 5 owner carries that you own and want to do a 6th you will have to abide by the same restrictions as the banks do. People joke about Obama being a communist but it really is heading there!

Owner carry for those who may not know is if you own a property out right and act as the bank and seller finance to the new buyer essentially holding the not and collecting payments from them.
the collapse of 2008 proves that wrong,but then again you're not the sharpest tool in the shed.
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Old 10-12-2013, 10:33 PM   #23
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the collapse of 2008 proves that wrong,but then again you're not the sharpest tool in the shed.
Indeed.

But then, we're talking about a CO resident who constantly sounds the alarm about eminent domain laws in his state while never uttering a word of concern or protest about the millions of acres of private and public land already appropriated by the oil and gas industry in his state (and the resulting displacement of his fellow residents.)

That's the sort of cognitive dissonance required to be a conservative nowadays.

I guess he doesn't want to offend his "coalition partners" (read: the oil and gas industry and its GOP bedfellows.)
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:36 PM   #24
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Moody's credit rating agency raining on Obama's scare parade:

Moody's offers different view on debt limit

One of the nation’s top credit-rating agencies says that the U.S. Treasury Department is likely to continue paying interest on the government’s debt even if Congress fails to lift the limit on borrowing next week, preserving the nation’s sterling AAA credit rating.

In a memo being circulated on Capitol Hill Wednesday, Moody’s Investors Service offers “answers to frequently asked questions” about the government shutdown, now in its second week, and the federal debt limit. President Obama has said that, unless Congress acts to raise the $16.7 trillion limit by next Thursday, the nation will be at risk of default.

Not so, Moody’s says in the memo dated Oct. 7.

” We believe the government would continue to pay interest and principal on its debt even in the event that the debt limit is not raised, leaving its creditworthiness intact,” the memo says. “The debt limit restricts government expenditures to the amount of its incoming revenues; it does not prohibit the government from servicing its debt. There is no direct connection between the debt limit (actually the exhaustion of the Treasury’s extraordinary measures to raise funds) and a default.

The memo offers a starkly different view of the consequences of congressional inaction on the debt limit than is held by the White House, many policymakers and other financial analysts. During a press conference at the White House Tuesday, Obama said missing the Oct. 17 deadline would invite “economic chaos.”

The Moody’s memo goes on to argue that the situation is actually much less serious than in 2011, when the nation last faced a pitched battle over the debt limit.

“The budget deficit was considerably larger in 2011 than it is currently, so the magnitude of the necessary spending cuts needed after 17 October is lower now than it was then,” the memo says.

Treasury Department officials did not immediately respond to requests for comment.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...b-327c5c814d82
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:48 PM   #25
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Moody's credit rating agency raining on Obama's scare parade:

Moody's offers different view on debt limit

One of the nation’s top credit-rating agencies says that the U.S. Treasury Department is likely to continue paying interest on the government’s debt even if Congress fails to lift the limit on borrowing next week, preserving the nation’s sterling AAA credit rating.

In a memo being circulated on Capitol Hill Wednesday, Moody’s Investors Service offers “answers to frequently asked questions” about the government shutdown, now in its second week, and the federal debt limit. President Obama has said that, unless Congress acts to raise the $16.7 trillion limit by next Thursday, the nation will be at risk of default.

Not so, Moody’s says in the memo dated Oct. 7.

” We believe the government would continue to pay interest and principal on its debt even in the event that the debt limit is not raised, leaving its creditworthiness intact,” the memo says. “The debt limit restricts government expenditures to the amount of its incoming revenues; it does not prohibit the government from servicing its debt. There is no direct connection between the debt limit (actually the exhaustion of the Treasury’s extraordinary measures to raise funds) and a default.

The memo offers a starkly different view of the consequences of congressional inaction on the debt limit than is held by the White House, many policymakers and other financial analysts. During a press conference at the White House Tuesday, Obama said missing the Oct. 17 deadline would invite “economic chaos.”

The Moody’s memo goes on to argue that the situation is actually much less serious than in 2011, when the nation last faced a pitched battle over the debt limit.

“The budget deficit was considerably larger in 2011 than it is currently, so the magnitude of the necessary spending cuts needed after 17 October is lower now than it was then,” the memo says.

Treasury Department officials did not immediately respond to requests for comment.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...b-327c5c814d82
I guess the question is: why in the hell should dems concede to anything if defaulting isn't a big deal? obviously,rethugs think its a big deal,there strategy was to use it to extract concessions from the president.
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