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Old 04-07-2013, 12:50 PM   #1
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Default Dumervil Replacement?

Check out this guy, he tore up the senior bowl and beat up on some top prospects. Has looked pretty awesome in pre-draft workouts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVJYQ99Ufe4
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Old 04-07-2013, 01:03 PM   #2
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Ayers will have a career year this year. Maybe not 15+ sacks, but he'll fill in for Dumervil.
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Old 04-07-2013, 01:32 PM   #3
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Ayers will have a career year this year. Maybe not 15+ sacks, but he'll fill in for Dumervil.
hahahahaha....
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Old 04-07-2013, 01:06 PM   #4
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By no means is he going to "replace" Dumervil, but with Von rushing the passer, I think Ayers will be an adequate starter, and I think we should still be able to pull off a top 5 defense again next year.
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Old 04-07-2013, 01:20 PM   #5
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I will be surprised if he doesn't have a good season.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:43 AM   #6
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I will be surprised if he doesn't have a good season.
I'll be surprised if he is the full time starter. He cannot beat out Wolfe let alone sniff 10 sacks this year.
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Old 04-07-2013, 01:34 PM   #7
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Old 04-07-2013, 02:25 PM   #8
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We shall see. I think Ayers was just starting to come on last year. Sometimes it's really hard to shine when you are rotation material. Sometimes, you need that chance to be the full time starter. We saw that last year in Woodyard. Whether it's an injury or suspension to the starter, sometimes you don't know exactly what you have until you see a guy get those starter reps in practice and get the full time reps in games.

Ayers has an excellent DE build at 6'3 275 and has a really good first step. He only did 18 reps at his combine so not sure if that's gone up but I would say with adding the weight he has and being in an NFL training program for several years I would say that's probably gone up to about 23-25 reps. I think he's strong enough. Not as quick as Doom and his speed rush is not as refined as Doom's was. But he does play hard and he does get good pressure. It's just that in spot duty, he really didn't get all the way there on a regular basis. But I've said this before and it's worth repeating. You don't have to lead the league in sacks, as a player, or as a defense, to be great. If I'm not mistaken, the Ravens and the 49'ers were both average in total team sacks this year. Don't get me wrong, sacks are excellent. But getting 3rd down stops and goal line defense are much more important. I think this defense has a chance to improve in both those areas and I think they will. We might take a small dip in sacks, but I think the overall defense will be just as good if not improved.
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Old 04-07-2013, 03:22 PM   #9
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I agree with a lot of your points, Zona. I think people forget that sacks aren't as important as third down stop percentage. Because on third down, sacks are basically as good as an incomplete pass
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:08 PM   #10
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I agree with a lot of your points, Zona. I think people forget that sacks aren't as important as third down stop percentage. Because on third down, sacks are basically as good as an incomplete pass
Sry but that is a really stupid point you are making there.

First, it is proven and backed up by facts that a sack, be it on 1st, 2nd or 3rd down is more than likely render that drive useless.

Second, sacks on 3rd down are vital. And depending on the situation more so. The pressure generated makes the passer rush his decision on that critical 3rd down. That way they don't have all the time in the world to convert on 3rd and long like our previous defenses usually did. Our success on allowing 3rd down conversion where due to our pass rush. A sack on 3rd down also means you that play is dead and there is no longer the risk of a fluke play like the Holy Stockley.

And finally but not least, it's stupid to say that a 3rd down sack is better than an incomplete pass. Why? Well if you remember correctly 2 years ago in Von's rookie season, the game against SD with the Tebow magic. If it weren't for that sack on 3rd down, SD would have been in range to make the kick in OT and win. (Now that I think of it, I think it was a stopped run behind the LOS, but anyway... you get the idea)

So yeah... nobody will buy that argument. That a sack on 3rd down is as good as an incomplete. Really dumb argument.

*More things go into it, like.. it keeps the clock ticking, it can improve the field position on a punt, there is the chance of a TO, like the one against SD this year where Doom striped sacked Rives and Carte took it home for a TD, etc.

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Old 04-07-2013, 04:54 PM   #11
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Sry but that is a really stupid point you are making there.

First, it is proven and backed up by facts that a sack, be it on 1st, 2nd or 3rd down is more than likely render that drive useless.

Second, sacks on 3rd down are vital. And depending on the situation more so. The pressure generated makes the passer rush his decision on that critical 3rd down. That way they don't have all the time in the world to convert on 3rd and long like our previous defenses usually did. Our success on allowing 3rd down conversion where due to our pass rush. A sack on 3rd down also means you that play is dead and there is no longer the risk of a fluke play like the Holy Stockley.

And finally but not least, it's stupid to say that a 3rd down sack is better than an incomplete pass. Why? Well if you remember correctly 2 years ago in Von's rookie season, the game against SD with the Tebow magic. If it weren't for that sack on 3rd down, SD would have been in range to make the kick in OT and win. (Now that I think of it, I think it was a stopped run behind the LOS, but anyway... you get the idea)

So yeah... nobody will buy that argument. That a sack on 3rd down is as good as an incomplete. Really dumb argument.

*More things go into it, like.. it keeps the clock ticking, it can improve the field position on a punt, there is the chance of a TO, like the one against SD this year where Doom striped sacked Rives and Carte took it home for a TD, etc.

I think what he's saying is that a sack on 3rd down and an incomplete pass = the same thing (in most cases). The other team will be punting the ball. True, if they are in FG range and a sack takes them out then that's different. But you're talking about 30% of the field vs 70% of the field. In most cases, an incomplete pass is no more effective then a sack. Of course a sack can result in a TO, or FG try being too far. But I think he's talking in general terms. Most of the time, a sack on 3rd down means the team will punt. I would say that on most sacks, only 15% of them equate to a TO. Maybe a little higher as far as pushing a team out of FG range, like 30% of sacks. So really, he's for the most part, more accurate then you are.

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Old 04-07-2013, 07:48 PM   #12
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I think this defense has a chance to improve in both those areas and I think they will. We might take a small dip in sacks, but I think the overall defense will be just as good if not improved.
Why would Elway try to re-sign Elvis (twice) if the D would be improved without him?

Do you really think that or are you trying to convince yourself losing Doom is ok?
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:46 AM   #13
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Why would Elway try to re-sign Elvis (twice) if the D would be improved without him?

Do you really think that or are you trying to convince yourself losing Doom is ok?
The defense is better if his replacement plays up to his money value. Dumervil's play was at a net loss monetarily for the defense. This is especially important since Von's contract will require more money next offseason than they currently have...
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Old 04-08-2013, 01:15 PM   #14
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Why would Elway try to re-sign Elvis (twice) if the D would be improved without him?

Do you really think that or are you trying to convince yourself losing Doom is ok?
I'm not saying Doom wasn't a good player. I think the defense can improve due to several factors.

* JDR being here 2 consecutive years
* DRC I think is an upgrade over Porter, and we can move Harris back to Nickel
* I like our starting DT's
* I think Wolfe improves and that will help
* I think Miller is a once in a generation player and he'll be fabulous again.

Elway tried to sign Doom. You can call it twice if you want, that's just circumstance. Elway liked Doom at 6M but agreed to 8M. He obviously felt Doom could help the team but didn't feel he was so important that he could not lose him no matter what. So there you have it.
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Old 04-08-2013, 06:26 PM   #15
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I wonder if Elway will take a chance on Damontre Moore at 28.

Montee Ball would be a nice pickup in the 3rd. From what I've seen of him he's a real good between the tackles guy, a chain mover. He may have a lot of miles on the tires, but he's good for a few years. Why didn't he declare for the draft last year?
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:32 PM   #16
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I wonder if Elway will take a chance on Damontre Moore at 28.

Montee Ball would be a nice pickup in the 3rd. From what I've seen of him he's a real good between the tackles guy, a chain mover. He may have a lot of miles on the tires, but he's good for a few years. Why didn't he declare for the draft last year?
Montee Ball reminds me of Emmett Smith a little bit. For a 3rd round pick he would be the instant starter or at least him and McGahee would share time with Ball getting more carries by the end of the year. He would have tremendous value in the 3rd round.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:41 PM   #17
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We shall see. I think Ayers was just starting to come on last year. Sometimes it's really hard to shine when you are rotation material. Sometimes, you need that chance to be the full time starter. We saw that last year in Woodyard. Whether it's an injury or suspension to the starter, sometimes you don't know exactly what you have until you see a guy get those starter reps in practice and get the full time reps in games.

Ayers has an excellent DE build at 6'3 275 and has a really good first step. He only did 18 reps at his combine so not sure if that's gone up but I would say with adding the weight he has and being in an NFL training program for several years I would say that's probably gone up to about 23-25 reps. I think he's strong enough. Not as quick as Doom and his speed rush is not as refined as Doom's was. But he does play hard and he does get good pressure. It's just that in spot duty, he really didn't get all the way there on a regular basis. But I've said this before and it's worth repeating. You don't have to lead the league in sacks, as a player, or as a defense, to be great. If I'm not mistaken, the Ravens and the 49'ers were both average in total team sacks this year. Don't get me wrong, sacks are excellent. But getting 3rd down stops and goal line defense are much more important. I think this defense has a chance to improve in both those areas and I think they will. We might take a small dip in sacks, but I think the overall defense will be just as good if not improved.
With Wolfe's improvement this year between he and Ayers we will get the extra 11 sacks from last year beyond what Wolfe and Ayers contributed last year to make up for Doom on that front.

But dont forget Von is likely to push for 22 to 24 sacks this year with the added sync with Wolfe who is setting that edge and pushing the pocket as well.

Plus with Ayers and Wolfe not to mention Vickerson and Terrance collapsing the pocket much better than last year with a second season for Vickerson under JDR and Knighton already well seasoned in JDR defense, this will lead to significant improvements in over all Dline performance on both passing and running downs.

We were going to have a significant step up this year, Doom or no Doom. Without Doom we just have to go about it in a slighty different way, and should see dividends in better run game performance as well as short yardage and goal line work than with Doom in there.

Von will add more sacks as he continues to rocket up through the beginning peak years of his special talent as well, and Wolfe I think is gonna bust out in a big way this year.

We will add at least one more real player in the first three rounds in the draft along the Dline .. or maybe just at Middle linebacker. Malik Jackson will contribute as well in rotation. Im not worried much about our defense front seven.

Irving could grab the MLB job and not let it go for years, Steve Johnson is coming on as well and Bradley was a good cover LB for the Eagles so we have some options there.

Woodyard will be further improved after a year as a starter and we have his capable backup in his Kentucky buddy now with a year under his belt who will be pressing Woodyard starting this year.

The key is getting development and production out of prior draft years and not just expecting to hit a home run with each new drafted player this year. It takes time for most guys to hit their stride and to give up too soon and look for the next super man in the draft is short sighted and a prescription for failure long term.

We need another decent Corner as well as hope that Bolden is ready to rumble this year, and a safety plus a solid banger RB and we are set for a couple Lombardi runs.

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Old 04-11-2013, 03:53 PM   #18
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With Wolfe's improvement this year between he and Ayers we will get the extra 11 sacks from last year beyond what Wolfe and Ayers contributed last year to make up for Doom on that front.
You think Wolfe and Ayers will combine for 19 sacks? Would you care to make a wager?
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:04 PM   #19
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With Wolfe's improvement this year between he and Ayers we will get the extra 11 sacks from last year beyond what Wolfe and Ayers contributed last year to make up for Doom on that front.

But dont forget Von is likely to push for 22 to 24 sacks this year with the added sync with Wolfe who is setting that edge and pushing the pocket as well.

Plus with Ayers and Wolfe not to mention Vickerson and Terrance collapsing the pocket much better than last year with a second season for Vickerson under JDR and Knighton already well seasoned in JDR defense, this will lead to significant improvements in over all Dline performance on both passing and running downs.

We were going to have a significant step up this year, Doom or no Doom. Without Doom we just have to go about it in a slighty different way, and should see dividends in better run game performance as well as short yardage and goal line work than with Doom in there.

Von will add more sacks as he continues to rocket up through the beginning peak years of his special talent as well, and Wolfe I think is gonna bust out in a big way this year.

We will add at least one more real player in the first three rounds in the draft along the Dline .. or maybe just at Middle linebacker. Malik Jackson will contribute as well in rotation. Im not worried much about our defense front seven.

Irving could grab the MLB job and not let it go for years, Steve Johnson is coming on as well and Bradley was a good cover LB for the Eagles so we have some options there.

Woodyard will be further improved after a year as a starter and we have his capable backup in his Kentucky buddy now with a year under his belt who will be pressing Woodyard starting this year.

The key is getting development and production out of prior draft years and not just expecting to hit a home run with each new drafted player this year. It takes time for most guys to hit their stride and to give up too soon and look for the next super man in the draft is short sighted and a prescription for failure long term.

We need another decent Corner as well as hope that Bolden is ready to rumble this year, and a safety plus a solid banger RB and we are set for a couple Lombardi runs.
Biggest homer post of the week!!!
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Old 04-07-2013, 03:49 PM   #20
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This is his contract year. I expect him to work hard and finally do something. He has to get paid and money is more than enough motivation. If Ayers remains in the shadows, it will be even harder to replace Dumervil. If Ayers decides to show up, he will obviously go for the money and the salary cap will become an even bigger issue next year. We've seen these players that only decide to train hard and play hard during the final year of the contract, and usually they rest after getting the money. A reporter from Denver (don't remmeber who) already said he saw Ayers and he's looking stronger. Woodyard said he's been training with Ayers and said Ayers' mentality has changed this year. So...
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:41 PM   #21
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This is his contract year. I expect him to work hard and finally do something. He has to get paid and money is more than enough motivation. If Ayers remains in the shadows, it will be even harder to replace Dumervil. If Ayers decides to show up, he will obviously go for the money and the salary cap will become an even bigger issue next year. We've seen these players that only decide to train hard and play hard during the final year of the contract, and usually they rest after getting the money. A reporter from Denver (don't remmeber who) already said he saw Ayers and he's looking stronger. Woodyard said he's been training with Ayers and said Ayers' mentality has changed this year. So...
Interesting. Eh, maybe the light has come on in Ayers' brain. He does have some strength, he's pretty good at extending his hands, churning his legs and bull-rushing OT's. Historically he's pretty good at the point of attack, but not a quick finisher of QB's like you want from an RDE, and I don't see the light coming on that much. He just doesn't have that quick first two steps.
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:56 PM   #22
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For those that forgot, Ayers has already been a full-time starter twice in Denver, in 2010 and 2011. He managed 1.5 and 3 sacks, respectively.

Also, we have already played the, "Oh, I guess we don't have Doom, let's plug in Ayers in his spot, we'll make it up with production from other positions" game before, in 2010.

In 2009, our defense had: 40 sacks, 212 pressures, #7 overall.

2010: 23 Sacks, 178 pressures, #32 overall.
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:14 PM   #23
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For those that forgot, Ayers has already been a full-time starter twice in Denver, in 2010 and 2011. He managed 1.5 and 3 sacks, respectively.

Also, we have already played the, "Oh, I guess we don't have Doom, let's plug in Ayers in his spot, we'll make it up with production from other positions" game before, in 2010.

In 2009, our defense had: 40 sacks, 212 pressures, #7 overall.

2010: 23 Sacks, 178 pressures, #32 overall.
Again - so much attention paid to sacks. We had 52 last year. We were a good team, made it to the playoffs. St. Louis also had 52 and sucked. Likewise, the Pats, Ravnes and 49'ers all had sacks in the mid 30's.

If we lose 10 sacks or so, but play the run better then so be it. Doesn't mean we're going to suck as a defense, and as a team. Who knows, maybe we have a better run stopping and goal line defense.

I don't think we can say Ayers is going to sack like Doom did. He won't. Simple as that. He's not a pass rush specialist. But he will play the run much better and he will still get some good pressure. He won't end up with 10+ sacks as a starter IMO, but he will play the run much better. You just change how you design your defensive plays a little bit, to suit the types of players you have. If you have a DE, that is lights out run stuffer, maybe you blitz your CB or LB more. If you have a DE that is lights out pass rusher, you obviously don't blitz your LB.

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Old 04-07-2013, 05:24 PM   #24
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Again - so much attention paid to sacks. We had 52 last year. We were a good team, made it to the playoffs. St. Louis also had 52 and sucked. Likewise, the Pats, Ravnes and 49'ers all had sacks in the mid 30's.

If we lose 10 sacks or so, but play the run better then so be it. Doesn't mean we're going to suck as a defense, and as a team. Who knows, maybe we have a better run stopping and goal line defense.
Ok, how about this: Ayers had been in the league 4 years. Two years he has started, two he hasn't.

When he was a starter, we had the #32 , and #20 defense.

When he wasn't a starter, we had the #7, and #2 defense.

But, I'm sure his inability to be any sort of a threat against the pass has nothing to do with that.
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:26 PM   #25
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Ok, how about this: Ayers had been in the league 4 years. Two years he has started, two he hasn't.

When he was a starter, we had the #32 , and #20 defense.

When he wasn't a starter, we had the #7, and #2 defense.

But, I'm sure his inability to be any sort of a threat against the pass has nothing to do with that.
Not to mention very overrated vs the run for no earned reason whatsoever
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