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Old 04-03-2013, 07:33 AM   #1
Bmore Manning
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Default Offseason Plan 2.0

This is the second edition of my Offseason Plan, and in this version I am going to do something different.

Now that we have started into the real NFL offseason and have made some additions in Free Agency, thought Elway says the team is still evaluating their options, I get the sense that for the most part we are done in free agency, thought there are some quality players still to be had out there, whom would probably come relatively cheap, and upgrade positions of need….. Karlos Dansby (MLB), Quintin Mikell (SS) and Kerry Rhodes (FS)…
This leads me to the main topic of my thoughts here about the draft, or lack there of. I am not going to be including a mock draft in this thread. Rather I am going to share my ideas on how we can improve the hot topic position of need, Right Defensive End.

I am of the belief, that if you look at this team, there are not many gapping holes, which is a good thing.. but it also means that we are more fortunate this year to be in a position where we can draft BPA or something close to it, as I think teams take the BPA but at a position of need… Now, if you look at this team, I think there are very few positions where a rookie would come in and start, given our scheme and current group of players. Those positions I have narrowed down are on Offense RB. Yes the lone spot, where I think we all can agree we need an upgrade and will probably be doing so via the draft. The other two spots where a rookie could potentially start are Tight End and Center. I think Tight End would be a much more luxury pick and that our Brass strongly believe in what we have and in the Young Guns Green and Thomas, and are hoping for a big step forward from them this season. Now the curious case of Center.. Walton showed improvement last season prior to his injury, could it be he is coming into his own? Or could it be the placebo effect of playing in a Peyton Manning led offense? Regardless of what it may be, time will tell and I think much like Tight End, our Brass believes in Walton and potentially last years draftee Phillip Blake.. so my conclusion in regards to the offense is that an upgrade is need at RB, and that is the only real spot where I see a rookie starter.

Now to the Defense, different story here.. I see three positions where a Rookie could potentially come in drafted and have the opportunity to earn the starting job. Those three positions include Safety, Middle Linebacker, and the Elephant in the room RIGHT DEFENSIVE END. With safety everything would seem as if the Brass will bring in competition at the position, but will give Moore the first crack at FS and Adams the first crack at starting at SS. In my opinion both positions could be upgraded, and a rookie might even be able to win out at either spot. Middle Line Backer is very similar to Safety in that, it seems as if the Brass will give Irving every opportunity to be the starting MLB on our team, but he could surely be upgraded.
Now to our new favorite topic of the offseason, how to replace the production from Doom at RDE. Elway has recently stated we are headed into the season with Ayers as our starter at RDE, surely he means on base downs, where on third down we will either draft a RDE, who will play as a situational pass rusher………………………………….or are you ready for it………………….

I think our Brass should even consider exploring something different, moving Miller to RDE and drafting a SOLB, whom possess a very similar skill set to Von Miller, but what this player may lack in terms of pass rush, after all Von is a very special player, he will make up for in coverage and being a well rounded SOLB. This suggestion may really sound radical, but hear me out. There may be players on the roster who can contribute and help fill the void, but none that will be able to fully replicate his pass rushing production, but stranger things do happen… The player on our roster who WOULD replace his production from RDE and would actually upgrade the position is Von Miller. The only possible concern would be, how would he hold up against the run, especially going against Left Tackles.. one wild card factor here is that Miller has been playing the strong side, where the offense will typically line up a Tight End next to a big nasty Right Tackle. Von has faced these players for the past two seasons and in my opinion has improved his run defense. Even though he is typically facing the Tight End in the blocking scheme, Left Tackles have been converted Tight Ends and where the game has evolved, are just bigger Tight Ends with nice athleticism. These aren’t old fashion Maulers anymore where Von may be in trouble, these players now a days have to have the balance, footwork, angles, smarts, and quicks, to match the Pass Rushers of the NFL. This is why I am fairly confident Von could play RDE and not worry about his run defense or abuse that you think he may take, especially with the mammoth defensive tackles on our roster who will help alleviate some pressure off of him. If you still think this could be a concern, which it still may be, I think a healthy rotation on downs with Ayers, especially in obvious run downs could help alleviate some of that abuse and pressure, while Von plays the strong side in those situations.
So IF Von played RDE or at least rotated there on passing downs, what to do with SOLB? I am not going to mock any particular player to Denver, rather I am going to list the prospects that I think could take over at SOLB and be used in a very similar way to Von Miller in pass rush, while offering the ability to drop into coverage and defend the run. The prospects in black represent those who can pass rush but also drop into coverage and have average or better ball skills. The prospects in red represent those who are better at pass rushing but have adequate coverage ability.

Round One- Jarvis Jones/ Barkevious Mingo
Round Two- Khaseem Greene/ Jamie Collins
Round Three- Chase Thomas/ Trevado Williams/ Sio Moore
Round Four- Kevin Reddick/ Cornelius Washigton
Round Five- Ty Powell/ Travis Long

My preference if making such a perceived radical transition defensively, are the prospects in the second and third round. I would prefer to trade out of the first round picking up another second rounder. Using that extra second rounder to grab a Strong Safety or Running Back and then selecting either Kasheem Greene or Jamie Collins. Should the front office to decide to just draft a situational pass rusher for RDE, then obviously the board would look different, but in my opinion there are again prospects in every round through the fifth who could potentially fill that void at RDE they just offer a different skill set and would be utilized differently than the players I mentioned above.
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:38 AM   #2
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No way Jarvis Jones makes it to 28...
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:42 AM   #3
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No way Jarvis Jones makes it to 28...
Or Mingo.
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:55 AM   #4
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No way Jarvis Jones makes it to 28...
This is a rather disappointing reply to a thoughtful post.
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:26 AM   #5
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This is a rather disappointing reply to a thoughtful post.
Thank you for the kind words. I was trying to show prospects and scheme fit of what we would be looking for in a replacement and not as much with will Jones or Mingo last to #28.. Just players who would fit and projected round value.
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:39 AM   #6
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There has been some very good analysis over on IAOFM as to why the idea of moving Von to the other side would result in a net loss to the defensive (based on scheme, usage, etc.). Frankly, I don't know enough about the technicalities of football to know for myself if your suggestion is a good one, but I'm inclined to go with what I've read over there. Plus, that age-old adage about not fixing things that aren't broken comes to mind. At his current position and in his current role, Von Miller is one of the top 3 defenders in the entire game, and we want to mess with that? Nay! Draft a DE, let Ayers lead the way, and let's see what happens says I.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:04 AM   #7
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There has been some very good analysis over on IAOFM as to why the idea of moving Von to the other side would result in a net loss to the defensive (based on scheme, usage, etc.). Frankly, I don't know enough about the technicalities of football to know for myself if your suggestion is a good one, but I'm inclined to go with what I've read over there. Plus, that age-old adage about not fixing things that aren't broken comes to mind. At his current position and in his current role, Von Miller is one of the top 3 defenders in the entire game, and we want to mess with that? Nay! Draft a DE, let Ayers lead the way, and let's see what happens says I.
They have their opinion and I have mine, thank you for the thoughts and constructive criticism.
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Old 04-04-2013, 10:59 AM   #8
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There has been some very good analysis over on IAOFM as to why the idea of moving Von to the other side would result in a net loss to the defensive (based on scheme, usage, etc.). Frankly, I don't know enough about the technicalities of football to know for myself if your suggestion is a good one, but I'm inclined to go with what I've read over there. Plus, that age-old adage about not fixing things that aren't broken comes to mind. At his current position and in his current role, Von Miller is one of the top 3 defenders in the entire game, and we want to mess with that? Nay! Draft a DE, let Ayers lead the way, and let's see what happens says I.
I have expressed this in a thread to BMore about moving Miller. No way do I like the move. When Miller creeps onto the line, it panics the OLine and play calling. That isn't going to happen if he is stationed as a DE. WOrse move for Simon Fletcher when they moved him to DL and sacks suffered. Keep Miller as is and find a player to fill the Doom void. One loss shouldn't mean missing another. I don't like having two question marks in the linebacking crew.

As for tight ends, I don't see any TE picked within the first 3 or 4 picks. I think we have 2 good TE players now and the others can be replaced...at a lower draft pick.

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Old 04-03-2013, 12:44 PM   #9
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Thank you for the kind words. I was trying to show prospects and scheme fit of what we would be looking for in a replacement and not as much with will Jones or Mingo last to #28.. Just players who would fit and projected round value.
I get what your doing. Mock draft and saying what players in the draft you think Broncos should target are two different things. Obviously to get some of those players you mention we either have to trade up or in some cases down to position the team in right spot value you wise for the pick.

To be honest i think from reading and researching the experts only have about 20 players with true first round grades. IMO that means Denver either moves up or moves down in the draft. That is if they can sometimes you just can't find a trade partner.
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:54 AM   #10
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Good right up I like the idea. I think it is the probable solution however I bet that the von clone would be very fluid in where they line him up.
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:00 AM   #11
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As I'm sure you know, Von moved to DE fairly often on passing downs. The point of this was to increase the number of effective edge rushers from one to two. Now, you want to do the same, but the result will be to increase the effective edge rushers from zero to one. Not something I'm excited about.

Also, Von's effect on the game will decrease tremendously if he is taking on an OT every play. Not just against the run, but also rushing the passer. A lot of Von's success came about because the offense didn't know if he was rushing or not, so they couldn't fully commit a blocker to him, let alone double team him. If he's at RDE, it will be easy to double him, leave everyone else single blocked, and then pressure will come from... where?
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:01 AM   #12
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As I'm sure you know, Von moved to DE fairly often on passing downs. The point of this was to increase the number of effective edge rushers from one to two. Now, you want to do the same, but the result will be to increase the effective edge rushers from zero to one. Not something I'm excited about.

Also, Von's effect on the game will decrease tremendously if he is taking on an OT every play. Not just against the run, but also rushing the passer. A lot of Von's success came about because the offense didn't know if he was rushing or not, so they couldn't fully commit a blocker to him, let alone double team him. If he's at RDE, it will be easy to double him, leave everyone else single blocked, and then pressure will come from... where?
A drafted situational RDE comes from just the RDE replacing Ayers on passing downs. Von playing RDE on passing downs and a SOLB who has a similar skill set means you have two flexible edge rushers. Granted a rookie isn't going to instantly upgrade Doom let alone someone replacing Von.

But having Von and a Greene or Collins means you have two incredibly explosive players who can be moved around and you can be much more creative with, that you couldn't with Doom before or strictly a situational RDE draftee.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:22 AM   #13
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A drafted situational RDE comes from just the RDE replacing Ayers on passing downs. Von playing RDE on passing downs and a SOLB who has a similar skill set means you have two flexible edge rushers. Granted a rookie isn't going to instantly upgrade Doom let alone someone replacing Von.

But having Von and a Greene or Collins means you have two incredibly explosive players who can be moved around and you can be much more creative with, that you couldn't with Doom before or strictly a situational RDE draftee.
I would like drafting either of those guys, and I absolutely love guys that can be moved around. My problem is at RDE. Von well be much less effective there, and the idea of swapping players for pass/run downs is fairly antiquated. No huddle offenses, and the reliance of teams on the passing games means anyone at that spot needs to be able to apply pressure, no matter the down situation. Ayers is a total liability in that regard.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:34 AM   #14
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I would like drafting either of those guys, and I absolutely love guys that can be moved around. My problem is at RDE. Von well be much less effective there, and the idea of swapping players for pass/run downs is fairly antiquated. No huddle offenses, and the reliance of teams on the passing games means anyone at that spot needs to be able to apply pressure, no matter the down situation. Ayers is a total liability in that regard.
Well there will be instances where teams go no huddle and there will be instances where we will be able to substitute players. Now you are getting into the nuances that are uncontrolable. But either way it will be Ayers on the field in the no huddle, because if you draft a RDE he's probably going to be a situational pass rusher and wouldn't be on the field anyway. So we should focus on how we can bolster the pass rush, and I prefer the flexibility of my idea.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:50 AM   #15
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Well there will be instances where teams go no huddle and there will be instances where we will be able to substitute players. Now you are getting into the nuances that are uncontrolable. But either way it will be Ayers on the field in the no huddle, because if you draft a RDE he's probably going to be a situational pass rusher and wouldn't be on the field anyway. So we should focus on how we can bolster the pass rush, and I prefer the flexibility of my idea.
I'd rather keep Ayers as RDE, knowing that he provides nothing against the pass, and plan on generating pressure elsewhere than have Von spend more than a couple snaps at DE per game. As a RDE, Von will be a magnet for double teams. He is our best player, our scheme should be set up for other players to free him up, not the other way around.

Also, when Von moves to LDE and Wolfe moves inside, we are improving the rush from two positions. Von moving up to replace Ayers would improve one position, and get a turd off the field, I guess.

If Ayers has to start somewhere, it should be at LDE, where he was in 2011. My very favorite position for him, though, would be on the opposing team.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:40 AM   #16
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A drafted situational RDE comes from just the RDE replacing Ayers on passing downs. Von playing RDE on passing downs and a SOLB who has a similar skill set means you have two flexible edge rushers. Granted a rookie isn't going to instantly upgrade Doom let alone someone replacing Von.

But having Von and a Greene or Collins means you have two incredibly explosive players who can be moved around and you can be much more creative with, that you couldn't with Doom before or strictly a situational RDE draftee.
Good thread, but Von has already lined and played as a LDE a bunch of times in a 4-3 look on 3rd and long passing situations with Irving at SOLB.

Shifting him around to the RDE is not going to create more pass rush but just move from one direction to another.

The much more likely scenario is to go with Wolfe/Ayers as the bookend DEs with someone like Shaun Phillips as the situational pass rusher/insurance and draft a DE in the first day unless you think Malik Jackson is the long term answer.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:48 AM   #17
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Good thread, but Von has already lined and played as a LDE a bunch of times in a 4-3 look on 3rd and long passing situations with Irving at SOLB.

Shifting him around to the RDE is not going to create more pass rush but just move from one direction to another.

The much more likely scenario is to go with Wolfe/Ayers as the bookend DEs with someone like Shaun Phillips as the situational pass rusher/insurance and draft a DE in the first day unless you think Malik Jackson is the long term answer.
Respectfully disagree good sir

I feel that you do start Ayers at RDE on base downs, but having Von and a version of Von, NOT Irving, means you can be creative in how you blitz and where you blitz. A situational RDE draftee or FA will be coming from that specific side, there's less to account for from the defense. If Von slides over and the SOLB moves around, it's much more to account for and creates confusion.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:32 AM   #18
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Dumervil's production was not as big as his 11.5 sack total would make it seem. Von already plays d end on passing downs so what's the difference? There's so much wrong with this post, it's silly.

Dumervil's production will be replaced fairly easily. His play was not far above the average at the position. The defense will be better next year without him. Just watch.
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:35 AM   #19
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Great post Bmore! As we've discussed in another thread, I agree with the possibility of the Broncos moving Miller to RDE on passing downs and bringing in another LBer. If the Broncos draft a guy like Mangus then I think that player replaces Doom. But if the Broncos draft a guy like Sio Moore, then I think moving Miller to RDE on passing downs is a possibility.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:03 AM   #20
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Great post Bmore! As we've discussed in another thread, I agree with the possibility of the Broncos moving Miller to RDE on passing downs and bringing in another LBer. If the Broncos draft a guy like Mangus then I think that player replaces Doom. But if the Broncos draft a guy like Sio Moore, then I think moving Miller to RDE on passing downs is a possibility.
Thank you! Moore's certainly an option or his teammate Williams!
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:47 AM   #21
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I like the idea, but moving DJ all over the place ruined his career here after a solid season at WLB... I do not want to do the same thing to Von, he is a beast where he is at.

What is more of a value, great RDE, or a SOLB beast of a LB who can rush the passer and possible improve upon his pass coverage skills?
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:57 AM   #22
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I like the idea, but moving DJ all over the place ruined his career here after a solid season at WLB... I do not want to do the same thing to Von, he is a beast where he is at.

What is more of a value, great RDE, or a SOLB beast of a LB who can rush the passer and possible improve upon his pass coverage skills?
Miller would line up at DE as he does on passing downs anyway, just on a different side of the line. The value in the draft in my opinion is at both positions. You can find a solid third down pass rusher in rounds 1-5 and a solid SOLB in rounds 1-5. It really depends on which way our Brass would move. I think they would go with a situational pass rusher and leave Von at SOLB. I just personally like the idea of moving Von to both sides.

Really it's a trade off either scenario. A RDE will just be coming from RDE on passing downs. But a player like Greene or Collins allows incredible flexibility, while improving coverage.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:14 AM   #23
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Miller would line up at DE as he does on passing downs anyway, just on a different side of the line. The value in the draft in my opinion is at both positions. You can find a solid third down pass rusher in rounds 1-5 and a solid SOLB in rounds 1-5. It really depends on which way our Brass would move. I think they would go with a situational pass rusher and leave Von at SOLB. I just personally like the idea of moving Von to both sides.

Really it's a trade off either scenario. A RDE will just be coming from RDE on passing downs. But a player like Greene or Collins allows incredible flexibility, while improving coverage.
are passing downs real anymore anyway? What i mean is passing IS the new NFL.....( i might be talking myself into your idea now.....)

I do like the option to be creative...... but again is gaining a "solid" SOLB and moving Von gain anything here or will it just create more of a mess by not just adding a "solid" RDE...
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:19 AM   #24
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are passing downs real anymore anyway? What i mean is passing IS the new NFL.....( i might be talking myself into your idea now.....)

I do like the option to be creative...... but again is gaining a "solid" SOLB and moving Von gain anything here or will it just create more of a mess by not just adding a "solid" RDE...
Well consider that Von at RDE in my opinion is better than Doom, because Von is that guy who requires extra attention freeing up match-ups everywhere else. Von could be standing, stunt through the A Gap all from the right side while making it look as though he was dropping into coverage. The real driving force behind this idea is flexibility! But having these players on the field like that allow creative blitzes and better ability in coverage that Doom did not have.
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Old 04-03-2013, 06:06 PM   #25
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I like the idea, but moving DJ all over the place ruined his career here after a solid season at WLB... I do not want to do the same thing to Von, he is a beast where he is at.

What is more of a value, great RDE, or a SOLB beast of a LB who can rush the passer and possible improve upon his pass coverage skills?
There is absolutely no comparison to moving Von and moving DJ. A completely different level of ability and skill set. DJ was never really dominant at any position he played. He was limited in his ability to cover, somewhat reactionary in run coverage (guessing alot) and a limited pass rusher. I would equate Von much more to a Mecklenburg in his day where teams had to account for where he lined up.
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