The Orange Mane -  a Denver Broncos Fan Community  

Go Back   The Orange Mane - a Denver Broncos Fan Community > Orange Mane Discussion > Orange Mane Central Discussion
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Chat Room Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-18-2012, 07:25 PM   #1
Vine
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default SD last touchdown- NFL Rulebook

I am looking at NFL Rules concerning touchdowns, and looking for specific rules that affect the ruling of the play in question. Here is what I found:

Rule 11: Scoring, Section 2 Touchdown, Supplemental Notes #2: The player is attempting to catch a pass, the ball is not dead, and a touchdown is not scored, until the receiver completes the catch. See Rule 3, Section 2, Article 7

Rule 3: Definitions Section 2 Ball in Play/Dead Ball, Article 7, Catch: A catch is made when a player inbounds secures possession of a pass, kick, or fumble in flight (See 8-1-3).

Note 1: It is a catch if in the process of attempting to catch the ball, a player secures control of the ball prior to the ball touching the ground and that control is maintained after the ball has touched the ground.

Note 2: In the field of play, if a catch of a forward pass has been completed, and there is contact by a defender causing the ball to come loose before the runner is down by contact, it is a fumble, and the ball remains alive. In the end zone, the same action is a touchdown, since the receiver completed the catch beyond the goal line prior to the loss of possession, and the ball is dead when the catch is completed.

It is generally believed that from the media, in order for a touchdown to be considered a touchdown, a player must maintain control of the ball throughout the process, which means, if the receiver is falling to the ground, then the ball must not come out at all as the receiver, and/or the ball comes to the ground. However, from reading this rule, I am not seeing any sort of language that suggests that Calvin Johnson's catch a few years ago should have been ruled incomplete. In fact, if I continue from note one to note two, I am under the impression that if a defender knocks the ball loose while the receiver has control in the endzone, then it should be ruled a touchdown. So, why can not a receiver knock the ball out to make it incomplete, and the ground can knock the ball out and make it incomplete?

The purpose of this thread is to show an honest attempt at finding the rules pertaining to the SD touchdown in question, and NFL touchdown receptions in general. If anyone does not like the topic of this thread, please don't respond. It would be greatly appreciated of people who do participate in this thread to post constructive comments, and even attempt to look through the rule book yourselves. If someone find another section of the rule book pertaining NFL touchdown catches it would be tremendously appreciated!

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook

Must download PDF files to view rulebook.

Last edited by Vine; 11-18-2012 at 07:32 PM..
  Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 11-18-2012, 07:36 PM   #2
fwf
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

The spread was Denver +7.5. That was a Huge call for a lot of people.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2012, 07:54 AM   #3
Pony Boy
"Whoa Nellie"
 
Pony Boy's Avatar
 
Omaha !!!

Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,649

Adopt-a-Bronco:
mellon head
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fwf View Post
The spread was Denver +7.5. That was a Huge call for a lot of people.
Attachment 31802

Last edited by Pony Boy; 11-02-2013 at 05:28 PM..
Pony Boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 07:39 PM   #4
Pony Boy
"Whoa Nellie"
 
Pony Boy's Avatar
 
Omaha !!!

Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,649

Adopt-a-Bronco:
mellon head
Default

I think the question is about it being a secured possession when he crossed the goal line. They are saying he had the ball secured in one hand and when that hand and ball crossed the goal line the touchdown was scored and the play was over.
Pony Boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 07:46 PM   #5
Vine
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pony Boy View Post
I think the question is about it being a secured possession when he crossed the goal line. They are saying he had the ball secured in one hand and when that hand and ball crossed the goal line the touchdown was scored and the play was over.
Yep, I have seen this argument made as well. I have questioned whether possession of the ball crossing the plain of the goalline trumps the NFL catch rule, but I have found no such language in the NFL rulebook making this clear.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 07:50 PM   #6
Drunken.Broncoholic
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Ground cannot cause a fumble. But it can cause an incomplete. That should say the catch was already completed before crossing the goaline. The second that ball crosses the line the play is over. To me it looked like he caught it at the 2-3 yard line. Had no bobble before it crossed.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 07:51 PM   #7
Pony Boy
"Whoa Nellie"
 
Pony Boy's Avatar
 
Omaha !!!

Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,649

Adopt-a-Bronco:
mellon head
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vine View Post
Yep, I have seen this argument made as well. I have questioned whether possession of the ball crossing the plain of the goalline trumps the NFL catch rule, but I have found no such language in the NFL rulebook making this clear.
Unless it's a new rule it would be a touchdown the same as in the video

Pony Boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 07:55 PM   #8
Jekyll15Hyde
Anti Frown Cannon & McD..
 
Jekyll15Hyde's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,797
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pony Boy View Post
Unless it's a new rule it would be a touchdown the same as in the video

apples and oranges. This is all about whether he need to maintain the ball through contacting the ground. I need to see the video again but it didnt look like he established possession to me before being contacted. If so, then he has to maintain possession through falling to the ground.
Jekyll15Hyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 08:24 PM   #9
Mouth
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

As far as I know, the only way that the play in question can be called a catch (and subsequently a TD) is if the referee felt that it was a catch and clear possession before the receivers knee(s) hit the ground where he would be down by contact and the ball had broken the plane so it is a TD. I (and my GF who isn't a broncos fan) were both confused as to how it was ruled a TD. I think is was a blown call, but as I didn't have any money riding on it and we still won it's a no harm no foul thing for me. I can see how some people would be pissed since that call meant the broncos didn't cover.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 09:14 PM   #10
Action
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vine View Post
Yep, I have seen this argument made as well. I have questioned whether possession of the ball crossing the plain of the goalline trumps the NFL catch rule, but I have found no such language in the NFL rulebook making this clear.
You, my friend are a moron. The referee explained it clear as day as I said in the other thread.


These are two true statements as the following will prove:

This is what the referee said word for word:

"After review the ruling on the field is confirmed. The receiver had possession of the ball and as a second act, set the ball across the goal line.. Therefore ending the process of the catch. It is a touchdown."


The reason why setting the ball across the goal line with possession ends the process of the catch because IT'S A TOUCHDOWN WHEN THE BALL CROSSES THE GOAL LINE IN POSSESSION OF A PLAYER, thus, MARKING THE PLAY DEAD that very moment.

THis is literally what I've been saying in this whole thread...

again

POSSESSION + CROSSING GOAL LINE = TOUCHDOWN PLAY DEAD.

This is not confusing at all.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 09:27 PM   #11
Vine
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Action View Post
You, my friend are a moron. The referee explained it clear as day as I said in the other thread.


These are two true statements as the following will prove:

This is what the referee said word for word:

"After review the ruling on the field is confirmed. The receiver had possession of the ball and as a second act, set the ball across the goal line.. Therefore ending the process of the catch. It is a touchdown."


The reason why setting the ball across the goal line with possession ends the process of the catch because IT'S A TOUCHDOWN WHEN THE BALL CROSSES THE GOAL LINE IN POSSESSION OF A PLAYER, thus, MARKING THE PLAY DEAD that very moment.

THis is literally what I've been saying in this whole thread...

again

POSSESSION + CROSSING GOAL LINE = TOUCHDOWN PLAY DEAD.

This is not confusing at all.
The rulebook and what the referee said are in complete contradiction of each other. Did it ever occur to you that the referee could actually be wrong?
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 09:42 PM   #12
USMCBladerunner
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Two weeks from everywhere
Posts: 1,195

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Danny Trevathan
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vine View Post
The rulebook and what the referee said are in complete contradiction of each other. Did it ever occur to you that the referee could actually be wrong?
the rulebook and the referee are not in contradiction with each other...what are in contradiction are the referee's determination that the catch was completed prior to the ball crossing the goal line, and your wishful thinking that it was not..

Last edited by USMCBladerunner; 11-18-2012 at 09:43 PM.. Reason: grammar
USMCBladerunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 07:57 PM   #13
HILife
Ring of Famer
 
HILife's Avatar
 
Mrs. Alicia Hilife

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: DC - NOVA - DMV - VA - Take your pick
Posts: 4,512
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pony Boy View Post
I think the question is about it being a secured possession when he crossed the goal line. They are saying he had the ball secured in one hand and when that hand and ball crossed the goal line the touchdown was scored and the play was over.
This is how I saw it.
HILife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 08:33 PM   #14
Archie
R Gang
 
Archie's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Longmont, CO
Posts: 1,160

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Keith Bishop
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HILife View Post
This is how I saw it.
So, in making the catch the receiver was not going to the ground? He only went to the ground because after making the catch he was making a football move? Those don't seem to be reasonable conclusions.
Archie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 08:52 PM   #15
SportinOne
Ring of Famer
 
SportinOne's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,850
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archie View Post
So, in making the catch the receiver was not going to the ground? He only went to the ground because after making the catch he was making a football move? Those don't seem to be reasonable conclusions.
The fact that he was falling into the endzone shouldn't matter one bit. If this is not a catch at the 50 it's not a catch. If he's at the fifty and sticking the ball out as he's going to the ground results in a catch regardless of whether or not it comes loose when he hits, then yeah that's a touchdown but something tells me that that is not the case.

Either way, we won the division. Still would like to know if they got it right or wrong, though.
SportinOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 09:16 PM   #16
Action
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SportinOne View Post
The fact that he was falling into the endzone shouldn't matter one bit. If this is not a catch at the 50 it's not a catch. If he's at the fifty and sticking the ball out as he's going to the ground results in a catch regardless of whether or not it comes loose when he hits, then yeah that's a touchdown but something tells me that that is not the case.

Either way, we won the division. Still would like to know if they got it right or wrong, though.
This is pretty bad logic of the rules.

So if something is a fumble at the 50 it should be a fumble in the end zone?
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 07:52 PM   #17
Jekyll15Hyde
Anti Frown Cannon & McD..
 
Jekyll15Hyde's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,797
Default

I am going to go out on a limb but I wont be surprised if the NFL issues a statement later this week that says it shouldnt have been a touchdown.
Jekyll15Hyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 08:30 PM   #18
gyldenlove
Ring of Famer
 
gyldenlove's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Nęstved, DK
Posts: 11,086

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Spencer Larsen
Default

The rule in question is the completed catch rule:

Quote:
Article 3 Completed or Intercepted Pass. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by
the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:
(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and
(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and
(c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act
common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an
opponent, etc.).
The section to pay attention to is C, the ruling is that he gained possession of the ball and maintained possession for long enough to advance it prior to breaking the plane of the end zone, this means soon as the tip of the ball cross the plane the play is over and anything that happens subsequently is irrelevant.

As for the common misconception that the ground can not cause a fumble that is an utter fabrication caused by TV commentators with insufficient knowledge of the rules of the game. If a player has possession of the ball and he goes to the ground in the field of play and contact between the ground and the players hand or the ground and the ball prior to the player being down by contact causes the ball to come lose it is a fumble.
gyldenlove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 08:42 PM   #19
Mouth
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gyldenlove View Post
The rule in question is the completed catch rule:



The section to pay attention to is C, the ruling is that he gained possession of the ball and maintained possession for long enough to advance it prior to breaking the plane of the end zone, this means soon as the tip of the ball cross the plane the play is over and anything that happens subsequently is irrelevant.

As for the common misconception that the ground can not cause a fumble that is an utter fabrication caused by TV commentators with insufficient knowledge of the rules of the game. If a player has possession of the ball and he goes to the ground in the field of play and contact between the ground and the players hand or the ground and the ball prior to the player being down by contact causes the ball to come lose it is a fumble.
It all comes down to wether or not the referee thought the receiver made the catch and then crossed the goal line. I'm going to have to watch the replay again, but it was a really tough call to make.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 09:12 PM   #20
Jekyll15Hyde
Anti Frown Cannon & McD..
 
Jekyll15Hyde's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,797
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gyldenlove View Post
The rule in question is the completed catch rule:



The section to pay attention to is C, the ruling is that he gained possession of the ball and maintained possession for long enough to advance it prior to breaking the plane of the end zone, this means soon as the tip of the ball cross the plane the play is over and anything that happens subsequently is irrelevant.

As for the common misconception that the ground can not cause a fumble that is an utter fabrication caused by TV commentators with insufficient knowledge of the rules of the game. If a player has possession of the ball and he goes to the ground in the field of play and contact between the ground and the players hand or the ground and the ball prior to the player being down by contact causes the ball to come lose it is a fumble.

Thanks for posting this rule. I dont think anyone is saying ground caused the fumble. Its all about whether or not he established possession before being contacted.

When a player (or players) is going to the ground in the attempt to catch a pass, Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 1 states:

Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

So he had to have been ruled to catch caught it before he started to go the ground.
Jekyll15Hyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 08:49 PM   #21
Doggcow
Please Help Rebel
 
Doggcow's Avatar
 
http://www.gofundme.com/cvqzik

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 8,970

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Von Miller
Default

Cost me my week in fantasy (Denver D)
Doggcow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 09:23 PM   #22
Jekyll15Hyde
Anti Frown Cannon & McD..
 
Jekyll15Hyde's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,797
Default

We need a youtube clip posted so we can see if our player played any part of him going to the ground.
Jekyll15Hyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 10:03 PM   #23
boltaneer
17
 
boltaneer's Avatar
 
ATTA BABY!

Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: America's Finest City
Posts: 4,413
Default

Alexander made the catch outside of the endzone and made a "football move" by extending the ball over the goalline and so it didn't matter if the ball came out when he hit the ground.

i don't like the lack of consistency in what is a catch or not depending on where you are on the field but this is just going by what the rules say.
boltaneer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 10:05 PM   #24
Doggcow
Please Help Rebel
 
Doggcow's Avatar
 
http://www.gofundme.com/cvqzik

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 8,970

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Von Miller
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltaneer View Post
Alexander made the catch outside of the endzone and made a "football move" by extending the ball over the goalline and so it didn't matter if the ball came out when he hit the ground.

i don't like the lack of consistency in what is a catch or not depending on where you are on the field but this is just going by what the rules say.
The rules should also have a clause if it's a garbage TD and ****s my Fantasy team, it doesn't count.
Doggcow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 12:09 AM   #25
boltaneer
17
 
boltaneer's Avatar
 
ATTA BABY!

Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: America's Finest City
Posts: 4,413
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doggcow View Post
The rules should also have a clause if it's a garbage TD and ****s my Fantasy team, it doesn't count.
But it helped my fantasy team so it's all good in my book!
boltaneer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:21 AM.


Denver Broncos