Mormonism and political philosophy - The Orange Mane

mhgaffney · 11-03-2012, 05:58 PM

In my study of the Book of Mormon I found absolutely no bona fide connections to the New or Old Testament, Mormon claims to the contrary notwithstanding.

I did find evidence of racism.

In this light, consider the following article by a former Mormon.
MHG

How Mormon Doctrine Shapes Romney’s World View

By Kirk Robinson

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle32930.htm
November 03, 2012 "Information Clearing House" - As Mormon missionaries in the 1960s, Mitt Romney and I were required to present six “discussions” to “investigators” before baptizing them – he in France and I in northern California. Central to those discussions was the “Plan of Salvation” (POS); and central to it, the “Doctrine of Eternal Progression.” These doctrines are also the essence of the Mormon temple “endowment ceremony” in which covenants of allegiance to God and the Church are made, accompanied by oaths of secrecy.

The doctrines are unique to Mormonism and absolutely central to it. There is no way that Mitt Romney’s view of the world cannot have been shaped by them, especially given the rather cloistered life he has lived. Together with passages of Mormon scripture, they imply several disturbingly retrograde political views that define the Republican-Tea Party:

* Women are subordinate to men.

* People of color are, or were, morally underdeveloped compared to white people.

* Gays cannot become gods, i.e., will be damned.

* The correct political philosophy is libertarianism.

* The best form of government fosters free-market capitalism with minimal regulatory oversight of business and industry.

* Earth is only a temporary home to be used as a stepping stone, not necessarily to be preserved or conserved.

* War in the Middle East is inevitable as part of God’s plan for “the last days.”

* Lying for the cause of righteousness, such as winning the election, is morally acceptable.

The Plan of Salvation

This takes us back to before the creation of Earth, when we were spirit beings living in a “spirit world.” We were created out of “spirit matter” through a process of conception, gestation and birth involving a heavenly father (God) and mother. The firstborn spirit of our heavenly parents was Jesus, the second was Satan, and other notables included early Mormon leaders Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. They were especially “righteous” beings who were “fore-ordained” to play important roles in the historical unfolding of Mormon eschatology.

God eventually decided there were enough spirit children and it was time to start sending them away to college (my metaphor). So He created Earth and its myriad creatures for the college campus and solicited plans for a curriculum, graduation requirements, and future career tracks. Jesus and Satan each submitted a plan.

Jesus’s Plan

According to Jesus’s plan, the spirits who would decide to go to Earth would receive a mortal body, suffer and die, then be resurrected in a perfect union of spirit and body that would never suffer or die. A “veil of ignorance” would be placed across their minds so that they would not remember their pre-existence, and God’s commandments would be revealed to them through prophets. Importantly, they would have “free agency” to choose to obey them or not and would be responsible for their choices and actions.

Eternal Progression

All spirits who agreed to go along with Jesus’s plan will eventually receive resurrection as a graduation diploma and will be exalted to a level of glory commensurate with their earthly grades. The most righteous ones will receive the highest degree of eternal glory: the Celestial Kingdom. Others will go to the Terrestrial (middle) Kingdom or to the Telestial (lower) Kingdom. Each of these kingdoms is better than mortal existence, which is better than the spirit pre-existence. The three estates and the three kingdoms of glory represent a continuum of moral and material progress: an increase in righteousness leads to an increase in mastery and dominion over creation.

Satan’s Plan

Satan had a different plan. He knew that many spirits would be unable to resist temptations. He empathized with them and thought a much more compassionate plan would be to “force” them to live God’s commandments, so they could go to the Celestial Kingdom. The catch here is that they would have to be deprived of their free agency through dictatorial force. And this would be very bad because then they would not earn, and would therefore not merit, their eternal rewards.

There was another important difference between the two plans. Jesus told God that even though he would suffer for the sins of the world, he would give all glory for the salvation of mankind to God; while Satan said that since he devised the plan and would be doing all the work to ensure salvation for mankind, he would accept the glory for himself – and he wouldn’t have to suffer for people’s sins either, because they wouldn’t be allowed to sin.

War in Heaven

A “Council in Heaven” was held in which Jesus and Satan each pitched his plan. God liked Jesus’s plan best and gave the spirits an ultimatum, which was essentially this: “Follow Jesus or follow Satan of your own free agency. But if you follow Satan, you will be barred from eternal progression.” This fomented a “War in Heaven” in which one third of the spirits took sides with Satan and rejected Jesus’s plan, apparently out of sheer orneriness for they had nothing to gain thereby; and so they, along with Satan, were banished from the divine presence for all eternity. The rest of us were eventually born into mortal bodies on Earth (with an untold number still waiting to be born), while Satan and his minions now occupy a kind of shadow Earth where they are constantly scheming and working to thwart Jesus’s plan.

The Status of Women

There was a rank order among all the spirits with respect to their degrees of righteousness. Jesus was the highest ranking spirit. Satan was second until his “fall.” The Biblical patriarchs and prophets were high achievers too, and so were “fore-ordained” to play a big role in the unfolding of the divine plan here on Earth. The rest of us were less stellar.

Because of the natural ranking of the spirits, there will be a roughly corresponding ranking among them as mortal beings too. Eternal progression can be compared to a foot race in which the starting points in the pre-existence were staggered according to the degrees of righteousness of the spirits, with the most righteous ones having a head start. Because of their superiority, they will tend to pull further ahead on Earth. The most righteous of all will naturally be great leaders and empire builders and the like. But for some inexplicable reason, the spiritual leaders will all be males. Women cannot hold the priesthood or become prophets in the Mormon Church, and they enjoy no ultimate decision-making authority. Their primary job is to serve men, which above all means homemaking, child bearing, and child rearing.

The Status of Blacks and American Indians

The more inferior spirits on Earth start at the back of the pack and tend to fall behind even while progressing. They are the descendants of Cain (Negroes) (here the race analogy tends to break down – pun intended) and the descendants of rebellious Laman and Lemuel in the Book of Mormon (Native Americans). God “marked” or “cursed” them with a dark skin to distinguish them. But because they have their free agency, through extra diligence they might eventually overcome their poor starts to join God’s elite. A 1978 “revelation” to then-Mormon prophet Spencer W. Kimball allowed blacks to hold the Mormon priesthood for the first time, presumably because they had then progressed sufficiently. There was once a passage in the Book of Mormon (it has been excised) that said the descendants of Laman and Lemuel would one day become “white and delightsome.”

Polygamy and the Status of Gays

The people who earn the best grades on Earth will get the best jobs upon graduation from Earth. They will be the most god-like beings and accordingly will receive Celestial glory. They will become gods, endlessly creating and ruling over their own cosmic empires. Also, despite the Mormon Church’s official repudiation of polygamy, which was a precondition for Utah statehood, it is still generally accepted that achieving godhood will require the institution of polygamy in the Hereafter, with husbands being “sealed” to multiple wives. Needless to say, gay people won’t participate in this, so they can’t become gods; which is to say that they will be damned in the sense of not continuing to progress for eternity.

Cosmic Pyramid Schemes

It is a kind of axiom of Mormon doctrine that to be righteous is to follow “correct principles” that tend to produce successful and happy lives, conceived in both spiritual and material terms. Achieving godhood status is believed to be the highest possible source of happiness and joy. And presumably this grand POS will be repeated over and over for eternity, with new gods creating new worlds ad infinitum in a cosmic pyramid scheme. (This may go some distance in explaining why Utah is plagued to an unusual degree with earthly pyramid schemes in which trusting Mormons are bilked out of their life savings by trusted Mormons.)

The Status of Earth

From the point of view of the POS, Earth and its myriad creatures exist primarily for the benefit of mankind, and thereby to glorify God. They are like a pair of shoes: It is prudent to take good care of your shoes, but their primary purpose is to help you get where you want to go, in the course of which wear and tear will be unavoidable. So don’t worry too much about global climate change or species extinctions.

Free Agency vs. Compassion, Brotherly Love, and Cooperation

The POS illustrates the relative importance of two Mormon moral ideals: free agency, which entails taking responsibility for one’s choices and actions; and compassion, brotherly love, and cooperation, which require helping those in need. Each is in its own way commendable, but combining them in a way that is responsive to real circumstances can be challenging: Concerning people ostensibly in need, when is compassion the right response and when is demanding that they take responsibility for themselves the right response?

Of the two, free agency is in an important way more fundamental than compassion, as shown by the fact that God preferred a plan that emphasized the one over the other. It is more important than doing good deeds because only good that is done freely merits moral approbation and reward. Free agency is therefore a necessary condition for individual moral progress – and ultimately also for material progress as represented by gods creating worlds and exercising dominion over them. So far, so good, but . . .

The Right Form of Government and Economic System

The POS pretty clearly supports a libertarian political philosophy, including free market capitalism with minimal regulatory oversight of business and industry. Anything less would necessitate a sacrifice of free agency.

In this connection, it is interesting that in the early days of Mormons in Utah, Brigham Young attempted to establish a very pure socialistic system, the “United Order,” that would have made Karl Marx envious. In doing so, he was clearly giving precedence to compassion, brotherly love, and cooperation over competition. Why? One can presumably imagine a morally perfect being, such as Jesus, who always chooses and does what is right without being forced to; and Brigham Young thought the Saints ought to give it a try. Unfortunately, the experiment failed. Too many of the Saints gave in to avarice when they saw a chance to make money selling stuff to overland travelers. And they weren’t anxious to share their lucre either.

The Best of All Possible Worlds?

In Mormon terms, the best of all possible worlds will be one in which all people freely live God’s commandments. If compassion is called for, like the “good Samaritan” they will show compassion even at the expense of personal inconvenience. And they will share their talents and possessions freely to advance the greater good – as was supposed to happen with the United Order experiment. However, real people and the real world being what they are, an astonishing amount of human suffering goes unalleviated – suffering that might be prevented or relieved to a considerable extent through the institution of government programs designed to promote the general welfare, e.g., Social Security and universal health care. Yet paradoxically, given the ethical primacy of respect for free agency over the duty of compassion, from the point of view of the POS such a world must be reckoned morally inferior to one in which there is more human suffering, perhaps much more, but less state coercion. This fact doesn’t fit comfortably with Jesus’s message of love and compassion in the New Testament. Ouch!

Mormon Exceptionalism

A person who has been indoctrinated with Mormon dogma, especially if he is also a male born into a privileged social and economic position, is physically attractive, intelligent, and charismatic, might easily come to believe that he is one of the fore-ordained or “chosen ones” of God who will play a critical role in the events of the last days, including perhaps saving the United States Constitution when it is “hanging by a thread,” as predicted in the uncanonized “White Horse Prophecy” that was reputedly delivered by the Mormon Church’s founder Joseph Smith in 1843. It is known that Mitt Romney had such delusions of grandeur when he was younger. Does he still?

Sinning for the Lord

Because Mormon eschatology views human history, from the War in Heaven through Armageddon, as a continuing war between the two great forces of good and evil , sinning for the Lord” might at times be a moral necessity. Indeed, in the opening pages of the Book of Mormon, the most prominent hero of the book, a revered Mormon prophet named Nephi, murdered a man named Laban in order to steal a genealogical record of his people to take with his family to the Americas. This act was ethically justified as follows: “And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands; Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.” (1 Nephi 4:12-13) (One can’t help but think of Romney’s shameless shape-shifting and etch-a-sketching.)

Armageddon

According to Mormon eschatology, we are now in the “last days” of our earthly estate, which explains the official name of the Mormon Church: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Surely Armageddon is not far off, when the forces of righteousness will permanently conquer and subdue the forces of evil. This will usher in a millennium of peace in which Jesus will return to Earth to rule, assisted by the most worthy of God’s children, a good many of whom will of course be Mormons. These elite will include men who are leaders of men and empire builders the likes of Mitt Romney. They will also be members of the “House of Israel,” which consists both of the descendants of the Biblical patriarch Jacob and people who are “adopted” into the House of Israel by being baptized Mormons. From the Mormon perspective, this implies a special affinity between Mormons and Jews that is reinforced by a common history of persecution. It’s an obvious step from this to the conclusion that ineluctable Armageddon will involve a war between the righteous nation of Israel and its supporters on the one side, and its enemies on the other. As things presently stand, we are talking here about a war to end all wars between Israel and Iran and their respective allies. Just what we don’t need!

Tipping point

Our nation has reached a point of extreme political and moral polarization, with the Republican-Tea Party on one side and the Democrat Party on the other, each vying for command of our future. One can say, accurately enough, that the one side fervently embraces the propositions listed at the beginning of this essay, while the other side vehemently rejects them. It is to be expected, therefore, that the views of the respective presidential nominees reflect this same stark opposition. While it is hardly likely that the upcoming election will resolve this clash of values for once and for all, all the indications are that it will mark a singular, momentous, and irreversible turning point in our nation’s history.

Kirk Robinson, Ph.D., is an attorney (and former Mormon, having left decisively over 40 years ago) living in Salt Lake City.

This article was originally posted at Counterpunch

DAN_BRONCO_FAN · 11-03-2012, 06:20 PM

or if you want a more entertaining version of mormonism and what its about watch the south park episode
also Joesph smith is part of the superbest friends so there

South Park - Joseph Smith and the Creation of Mormonism from swingitjack on Vimeo.

but mormons are the only ones to go to heaven

orinjkrush · 11-03-2012, 06:47 PM

well, as a system of thinking, it appears somewhat more developed than say, republican-ism or democrat-ism. maybe a little less than Mithra-ism or Elvis-ism. particularly like the 72 virgins on earth aspect, though. but where do the Moroni plates come in?

Kaylore · 11-03-2012, 10:50 PM

Yeah, a lot of this off. You're leaving out huge pieces of doctrine. For example the idea that the Earth is temporary so we can trash it is not anywhere in any doctrine. Our bodies are temporary too and we don't teach that we can trash them. Adam was given stewardship over the earth. Nowhere is he instructed to destroy it. Also, dubious connection - the idea that Romney wants to trash the earth.

They "lying" is justified for God is not on at all. We're instructed to tell the truth for God even if it costs us our lives. Some Mormons don't like how Romney has ping-ponged on issues - especially abortion which is considered murder.

Also the "gays are damned" is totally wrong for two reasons. 1.) We don't believe anyone will be damned and 2.) People will be judged according to their struggles. If a gay may did the best he could in the sight of Christ, he may have a greater glory than a perceived righteous man who slacked off.

I don't disagree with the overall premise of the article - that Romney's faith and values are intertwined. But I think the article is reaching too far to force some things that aren't necessarily there. Harry Reid believes all those things and is the Democrat Senate Majority leader.

Vegas_Bronco · 11-03-2012, 11:00 PM

Note to the world...this article is full of pure bull**** very poorly written.

I think ill ask travis henry what its like to be a bronco and then assume all broncos have the same believes...cmon...dont be so gullable.

If you want to know about mormonism, go to the right sources.

mhgaffney · 11-05-2012, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vegas_Bronco

Note to the world...this article is full of pure bull**** very poorly written.

I think ill ask travis henry what its like to be a bronco and then assume all broncos have the same believes...cmon...dont be so gullable.

If you want to know about mormonism, go to the right sources.

I would love to ask Rocky Anderson -- a progressive-- but unfortunately Romney's personal interpretation is what's in play.

Tomorrow night -- we will know whether it matters.

MHG

spdirty · 11-05-2012, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhgaffney

I would love to ask Rocky Anderson -- a progressive-- but unfortunately Romney's personal interpretation is what's in play.

Tomorrow night -- we will know whether it matters.

MHG

Just curious, have you done any kind of study or research on the United Church of Christ?

Vegas_Bronco · 11-05-2012, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spdirty

Just curious, have you done any kind of study or research on the United Church of Christ?

I'd like to learn about the history of it. Where is your anti literature?

In all honesty, would be nice to know more about it. How it started?

mhgaffney · 11-06-2012, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spdirty

Just curious, have you done any kind of study or research on the United Church of Christ?

No.

As for the Book of Mormon -- I only delved into it rather casually. I was curious about the reputed cross references to the Bible.

Vegas_Bronco · 11-05-2012, 07:00 PM

* Women are subordinate to men.
Women are not subordinate to men. They in fact are the most important part of the plan of salvation. Without women and their ability and inherent responsible nature, we would not exist. Give your wife, daughter, mother and grandmother a kiss and express your love to them often. Any good LDS member will definitely back up this teaching. Degrading or subjecting women to any circumstance is against the will of God and any man acting in this manner will lose touch of his eternal purpose in bringing he himself and his wife together as one with our Spiritual Heavenly Father.

* People of color are, or were, morally underdeveloped compared to white people.
People were inherently good as they were direct descendants of Adam and Eve. It was those that chose to do unjustly that had a fallen countenance. It is not correct to assume that LDS religion believes these were people of color. That is bigotry and incorrect teaching by those who are against or anti-LDS. When you sin, you lose happiness and the ability to project true spirituality - you are unhappy, unresolved, and lost in your purpose. Living against the will of God will create a lifestyle of unhappiness and selfishness - albeit you are happy momentarily, the true happiness and fullness of joy is missing.

70 years ago today - Nov 5, 1842
Nauvoo, Illinois. Joseph Smith received a visit from some Native Americans, who -"expressed great friendship for the Mormon people, and said they were their friends.-",

[Source: BYU Studies Journal, volume 46, no. 4: A Chronology of the Life of Joseph Smith, http://byustudies.byu.edu]

* Gays cannot become gods, i.e., will be damned.
No man can become god that is not a discipline of Jesus Christ. This life is the test of our abilities to decipher good from evil and excercise our free agency. When we choose wrongly or incorrectly, we feel the lasting burn of sin. when we choose to do what it right, we are directly blessed with the blessing upon which that law is predicated. If we die in our sins, we cannot go and dig our body up and repent of the wrong doing which we have caused, nor can we erase the ill we have inflicted. Say your sorry to those you have wronged, carry no grudges, and live your life to the fullest. If those you have wronged do not forgive, pray for their forgiveness and be meek and longsuffering. If you have wronged someone, tell them you are not perfect but working on it and ask for foregiveness. Gays are not to be hated, but the act of sexual impurity with anyone or ones self is an act contrary to the laws of God and therefore is a sin. Gays are to be treated like anyone else and their challenges can and will be overcome with prayer and true intent to find what is right.

* The correct political philosophy is libertarianism.

- no, the correct political philosophy is to seek after good and follow the law of the land.

* The best form of government fosters free-market capitalism with minimal regulatory oversight of business and industry.
The best government allows a man to worship and exercise free agency. 'Let the things of Cesar be rendered to Cesar'...there is no room for money in the Halls of the Father...only goodnesss.

http://mormon.org/

I'd love to give you my opinions on any other religion, but I'd rather someone from that church give you the correct interpretation of their procedures. Don't ever go to a doctor to get your car fixed....go to the source and ask their opinions. Invite the missionaries over and get to know the church through it's official representatives. They are willing to take a question or two.

Oh, and everything on the internet is not all true...the article you posted is a good example of that.

houghtam · 11-05-2012, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vegas_Bronco

* Women are subordinate to men.
Women are not subordinate to men. They in fact are the most important part of the plan of salvation. Without women and their ability and inherent responsible nature, we would not exist. Give your wife, daughter, mother and grandmother a kiss and express your love to them often. Any good LDS member will definitely back up this teaching. Degrading or subjecting women to any circumstance is against the will of God and any man acting in this manner will lose touch of his eternal purpose in bringing he himself and his wife together as one with our Spiritual Heavenly Father.

* People of color are, or were, morally underdeveloped compared to white people.
People were inherently good as they were direct descendants of Adam and Eve. It was those that chose to do unjustly that had a fallen countenance. It is not correct to assume that LDS religion believes these were people of color. That is bigotry and incorrect teaching by those who are against or anti-LDS. When you sin, you lose happiness and the ability to project true spirituality - you are unhappy, unresolved, and lost in your purpose. Living against the will of God will create a lifestyle of unhappiness and selfishness - albeit you are happy momentarily, the true happiness and fullness of joy is missing.

* Gays cannot become gods, i.e., will be damned.
No man can become god that is not a discipline of Jesus Christ. This life is the test of our abilities to decipher good from evil and excercise our free agency. When we choose wrongly or incorrectly, we feel the lasting burn of sin. when we choose to do what it right, we are directly blessed with the blessing upon which that law is predicated. If we die in our sins, we cannot go and dig our body up and repent of the wrong doing which we have caused, nor can we erase the ill we have inflicted. Say your sorry to those you have wronged, carry no grudges, and live your life to the fullest. If those you have wronged do not forgive, pray for their forgiveness and be meek and longsuffering. If you have wronged someone, tell them you are not perfect but working on it and ask for foregiveness. Gays are not to be hated, but the act of sexual impurity with anyone or ones self is an act contrary to the laws of God and therefore is a sin. Gays are to be treated like anyone else and their challenges can and will be overcome with prayer and true intent to find what is right.

* The correct political philosophy is libertarianism.

- no, the correct political philosophy is to seek after good and follow the law of the land.

* The best form of government fosters free-market capitalism with minimal regulatory oversight of business and industry.
The best government allows a man to worship and exercise free agency. 'Let the things of Cesar be rendered to Cesar'...there is no room for money in the Halls of the Father...only goodnesss.

http://mormon.org/

I'd love to give you my opinions on any other religion, but I'd rather someone from that church give you the correct interpretation of their procedures. Don't ever go to a doctor to get your car fixed....go to the source and ask their opinions. Invite the missionaries over and get to know the church through it's official representatives. They are willing to take a question or two.

Oh, and everything on the internet is not all true...the article you posted is a good example of that.

How many times must mhg be gut punched before just giving up?

This is just another scrap of evidence why religion should be excluded from government and the electoral process. There are plenty of reasons to vote for or not vote for Romney (or Obama). "Because he's a Mormon" (or Christian, in the case of Obama) is not one of them, nor should it be.

Bronco Boy · 11-05-2012, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by houghtam

How many times must mhg be gut punched before just giving up?

This is just another scrap of evidence why religion should be excluded from government and the electoral process. There are plenty of reasons to vote for or not vote for Romney (or Obama). "Because he's a Mormon" (or Christian, in the case of Obama) is not one of them, nor should it be.

I would generally agree with you, but the fact that Romney's Mormonism is so important to him makes me worry. I think he would probably legalize polygamy if he got the chance.

houghtam · 11-05-2012, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronco Boy

I would generally agree with you, but the fact that Romney's Mormonism is so important to him makes me worry. I think he would probably legalize polygamy if he got the chance.

People thought the same about Kennedy, too. They thought the Pope would, in effect, preside over the US.

There are checks and balances for most of these sorts of things. Every once in awhile, some crazy conservative idea (like personhood) makes its appearance, only to be beaten back down by the rest of the sane populace.

If they can't pass a personhood amendment in Alabama of all places, I'm fairly confident the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints wouldn't be able to do anything to affect the way we as a nation operate.

Again, this is another reason why we should leave religion the **** out of government. We should be telling our candidates we don't want to hear about their religious views, because we don't care, and frankly neither do they. It's a cheap card to play. All politicians are liars, to some extent. There is no distinction in the Bible between a lie told with good intentions and a lie told with bad intentions. Lies are lies, and if there is an afterlife, there's likely a special circle in Hell for politicians.

It's right next to the one for Raiders fans.

Bronco Yoda · 11-05-2012, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronco Boy

I would generally agree with you, but the fact that Romney's Mormonism is so important to him makes me worry. I think he would probably legalize polygamy if he got the chance.

I don't see a problem with Polygamy. If it's between consenting adults, why not? I personally couldn't do it, one wife and kids is more than a handful for me... but for some it may work just fine. I doubt anyone here (even the young Mormons here) share this view.

mhgaffney · 11-06-2012, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by houghtam

How many times must mhg be gut punched before just giving up?

This is just another scrap of evidence why religion should be excluded from government and the electoral process. There are plenty of reasons to vote for or not vote for Romney (or Obama). "Because he's a Mormon" (or Christian, in the case of Obama) is not one of them, nor should it be.

WTF.

Typical brain dead American on steroids comment.

houghtam · 11-06-2012, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhgaffney

WTF.

Typical brain dead American on steroids comment.

I meant it metaphorically and in the nicest way possible

gunns · 11-06-2012, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vegas_Bronco

* Women are subordinate to men.
Women are not subordinate to men. They in fact are the most important part of the plan of salvation. Without women and their ability and inherent responsible nature, we would not exist. Give your wife, daughter, mother and grandmother a kiss and express your love to them often. Any good LDS member will definitely back up this teaching. Degrading or subjecting women to any circumstance is against the will of God and any man acting in this manner will lose touch of his eternal purpose in bringing he himself and his wife together as one with our Spiritual Heavenly Father.

* People of color are, or were, morally underdeveloped compared to white people.
People were inherently good as they were direct descendants of Adam and Eve. It was those that chose to do unjustly that had a fallen countenance. It is not correct to assume that LDS religion believes these were people of color. That is bigotry and incorrect teaching by those who are against or anti-LDS. When you sin, you lose happiness and the ability to project true spirituality - you are unhappy, unresolved, and lost in your purpose. Living against the will of God will create a lifestyle of unhappiness and selfishness - albeit you are happy momentarily, the true happiness and fullness of joy is missing.

70 years ago today - Nov 5, 1842
Nauvoo, Illinois. Joseph Smith received a visit from some Native Americans, who -"expressed great friendship for the Mormon people, and said they were their friends.-",

[Source: BYU Studies Journal, volume 46, no. 4: A Chronology of the Life of Joseph Smith, http://byustudies.byu.edu]

* Gays cannot become gods, i.e., will be damned.
No man can become god that is not a discipline of Jesus Christ. This life is the test of our abilities to decipher good from evil and excercise our free agency. When we choose wrongly or incorrectly, we feel the lasting burn of sin. when we choose to do what it right, we are directly blessed with the blessing upon which that law is predicated. If we die in our sins, we cannot go and dig our body up and repent of the wrong doing which we have caused, nor can we erase the ill we have inflicted. Say your sorry to those you have wronged, carry no grudges, and live your life to the fullest. If those you have wronged do not forgive, pray for their forgiveness and be meek and longsuffering. If you have wronged someone, tell them you are not perfect but working on it and ask for foregiveness. Gays are not to be hated, but the act of sexual impurity with anyone or ones self is an act contrary to the laws of God and therefore is a sin. Gays are to be treated like anyone else and their challenges can and will be overcome with prayer and true intent to find what is right.

* The correct political philosophy is libertarianism.

- no, the correct political philosophy is to seek after good and follow the law of the land.

* The best form of government fosters free-market capitalism with minimal regulatory oversight of business and industry.
The best government allows a man to worship and exercise free agency. 'Let the things of Cesar be rendered to Cesar'...there is no room for money in the Halls of the Father...only goodnesss.

http://mormon.org/

I'd love to give you my opinions on any other religion, but I'd rather someone from that church give you the correct interpretation of their procedures. Don't ever go to a doctor to get your car fixed....go to the source and ask their opinions. Invite the missionaries over and get to know the church through it's official representatives. They are willing to take a question or two.

Oh, and everything on the internet is not all true...the article you posted is a good example of that.

Thank you to you and Kaylore. There are some things that Mormon's believe in that I don't, it's that way with almost all religions. While I do not practice as a Mormon, I live among them and the one thing that McG left out that isn't doctrine, which can be interpreted a variety of ways, is that Mormons are the most caring and giving people on earth. No, not all of them, but the ones that truly follow their religion and don't rationalize to fit their own wants and desires, are.

Kaylore · 11-05-2012, 08:56 PM

If you believe that Gay's should be allowed to be together because you don't think the government should interfere with peoples' personal and sexual choices, then you must agree to polygamy.

Rohirrim · 11-05-2012, 09:19 PM

I consider every religion on Earth to be whacked. But it's fun to hear people argue about religion. It's like the Mad Hatter and the March Hare arguing about what time it is.

DAN_BRONCO_FAN · 11-06-2012, 08:42 AM

may i just add a WHAT?
OH JUST GO WATCH SOUTH PARK

DAN_BRONCO_FAN · 11-06-2012, 08:50 AM

also Joseph Smith is the founder of Mormonism, and a member of the Super Best Friends. His powers include the ability to blow cold air and ice from his mouth.

11-03-2012, 05:58 PM	#1
mhgaffney Ring of Famer Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 9,770	Mormonism and political philosophy In my study of the Book of Mormon I found absolutely no bona fide connections to the New or Old Testament, Mormon claims to the contrary notwithstanding. I did find evidence of racism. In this light, consider the following article by a former Mormon. MHG How Mormon Doctrine Shapes Romney’s World View By Kirk Robinson http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle32930.htm November 03, 2012 "Information Clearing House" - As Mormon missionaries in the 1960s, Mitt Romney and I were required to present six “discussions” to “investigators” before baptizing them – he in France and I in northern California. Central to those discussions was the “Plan of Salvation” (POS); and central to it, the “Doctrine of Eternal Progression.” These doctrines are also the essence of the Mormon temple “endowment ceremony” in which covenants of allegiance to God and the Church are made, accompanied by oaths of secrecy. The doctrines are unique to Mormonism and absolutely central to it. There is no way that Mitt Romney’s view of the world cannot have been shaped by them, especially given the rather cloistered life he has lived. Together with passages of Mormon scripture, they imply several disturbingly retrograde political views that define the Republican-Tea Party: * Women are subordinate to men. * People of color are, or were, morally underdeveloped compared to white people. * Gays cannot become gods, i.e., will be damned. * The correct political philosophy is libertarianism. * The best form of government fosters free-market capitalism with minimal regulatory oversight of business and industry. * Earth is only a temporary home to be used as a stepping stone, not necessarily to be preserved or conserved. * War in the Middle East is inevitable as part of God’s plan for “the last days.” * Lying for the cause of righteousness, such as winning the election, is morally acceptable. The Plan of Salvation This takes us back to before the creation of Earth, when we were spirit beings living in a “spirit world.” We were created out of “spirit matter” through a process of conception, gestation and birth involving a heavenly father (God) and mother. The firstborn spirit of our heavenly parents was Jesus, the second was Satan, and other notables included early Mormon leaders Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. They were especially “righteous” beings who were “fore-ordained” to play important roles in the historical unfolding of Mormon eschatology. God eventually decided there were enough spirit children and it was time to start sending them away to college (my metaphor). So He created Earth and its myriad creatures for the college campus and solicited plans for a curriculum, graduation requirements, and future career tracks. Jesus and Satan each submitted a plan. Jesus’s Plan According to Jesus’s plan, the spirits who would decide to go to Earth would receive a mortal body, suffer and die, then be resurrected in a perfect union of spirit and body that would never suffer or die. A “veil of ignorance” would be placed across their minds so that they would not remember their pre-existence, and God’s commandments would be revealed to them through prophets. Importantly, they would have “free agency” to choose to obey them or not and would be responsible for their choices and actions. Eternal Progression All spirits who agreed to go along with Jesus’s plan will eventually receive resurrection as a graduation diploma and will be exalted to a level of glory commensurate with their earthly grades. The most righteous ones will receive the highest degree of eternal glory: the Celestial Kingdom. Others will go to the Terrestrial (middle) Kingdom or to the Telestial (lower) Kingdom. Each of these kingdoms is better than mortal existence, which is better than the spirit pre-existence. The three estates and the three kingdoms of glory represent a continuum of moral and material progress: an increase in righteousness leads to an increase in mastery and dominion over creation. Satan’s Plan Satan had a different plan. He knew that many spirits would be unable to resist temptations. He empathized with them and thought a much more compassionate plan would be to “force” them to live God’s commandments, so they could go to the Celestial Kingdom. The catch here is that they would have to be deprived of their free agency through dictatorial force. And this would be very bad because then they would not earn, and would therefore not merit, their eternal rewards. There was another important difference between the two plans. Jesus told God that even though he would suffer for the sins of the world, he would give all glory for the salvation of mankind to God; while Satan said that since he devised the plan and would be doing all the work to ensure salvation for mankind, he would accept the glory for himself – and he wouldn’t have to suffer for people’s sins either, because they wouldn’t be allowed to sin. War in Heaven A “Council in Heaven” was held in which Jesus and Satan each pitched his plan. God liked Jesus’s plan best and gave the spirits an ultimatum, which was essentially this: “Follow Jesus or follow Satan of your own free agency. But if you follow Satan, you will be barred from eternal progression.” This fomented a “War in Heaven” in which one third of the spirits took sides with Satan and rejected Jesus’s plan, apparently out of sheer orneriness for they had nothing to gain thereby; and so they, along with Satan, were banished from the divine presence for all eternity. The rest of us were eventually born into mortal bodies on Earth (with an untold number still waiting to be born), while Satan and his minions now occupy a kind of shadow Earth where they are constantly scheming and working to thwart Jesus’s plan. The Status of Women There was a rank order among all the spirits with respect to their degrees of righteousness. Jesus was the highest ranking spirit. Satan was second until his “fall.” The Biblical patriarchs and prophets were high achievers too, and so were “fore-ordained” to play a big role in the unfolding of the divine plan here on Earth. The rest of us were less stellar. Because of the natural ranking of the spirits, there will be a roughly corresponding ranking among them as mortal beings too. Eternal progression can be compared to a foot race in which the starting points in the pre-existence were staggered according to the degrees of righteousness of the spirits, with the most righteous ones having a head start. Because of their superiority, they will tend to pull further ahead on Earth. The most righteous of all will naturally be great leaders and empire builders and the like. But for some inexplicable reason, the spiritual leaders will all be males. Women cannot hold the priesthood or become prophets in the Mormon Church, and they enjoy no ultimate decision-making authority. Their primary job is to serve men, which above all means homemaking, child bearing, and child rearing. The Status of Blacks and American Indians The more inferior spirits on Earth start at the back of the pack and tend to fall behind even while progressing. They are the descendants of Cain (Negroes) (here the race analogy tends to break down – pun intended) and the descendants of rebellious Laman and Lemuel in the Book of Mormon (Native Americans). God “marked” or “cursed” them with a dark skin to distinguish them. But because they have their free agency, through extra diligence they might eventually overcome their poor starts to join God’s elite. A 1978 “revelation” to then-Mormon prophet Spencer W. Kimball allowed blacks to hold the Mormon priesthood for the first time, presumably because they had then progressed sufficiently. There was once a passage in the Book of Mormon (it has been excised) that said the descendants of Laman and Lemuel would one day become “white and delightsome.” Polygamy and the Status of Gays The people who earn the best grades on Earth will get the best jobs upon graduation from Earth. They will be the most god-like beings and accordingly will receive Celestial glory. They will become gods, endlessly creating and ruling over their own cosmic empires. Also, despite the Mormon Church’s official repudiation of polygamy, which was a precondition for Utah statehood, it is still generally accepted that achieving godhood will require the institution of polygamy in the Hereafter, with husbands being “sealed” to multiple wives. Needless to say, gay people won’t participate in this, so they can’t become gods; which is to say that they will be damned in the sense of not continuing to progress for eternity. Cosmic Pyramid Schemes It is a kind of axiom of Mormon doctrine that to be righteous is to follow “correct principles” that tend to produce successful and happy lives, conceived in both spiritual and material terms. Achieving godhood status is believed to be the highest possible source of happiness and joy. And presumably this grand POS will be repeated over and over for eternity, with new gods creating new worlds ad infinitum in a cosmic pyramid scheme. (This may go some distance in explaining why Utah is plagued to an unusual degree with earthly pyramid schemes in which trusting Mormons are bilked out of their life savings by trusted Mormons.) The Status of Earth From the point of view of the POS, Earth and its myriad creatures exist primarily for the benefit of mankind, and thereby to glorify God. They are like a pair of shoes: It is prudent to take good care of your shoes, but their primary purpose is to help you get where you want to go, in the course of which wear and tear will be unavoidable. So don’t worry too much about global climate change or species extinctions. Free Agency vs. Compassion, Brotherly Love, and Cooperation The POS illustrates the relative importance of two Mormon moral ideals: free agency, which entails taking responsibility for one’s choices and actions; and compassion, brotherly love, and cooperation, which require helping those in need. Each is in its own way commendable, but combining them in a way that is responsive to real circumstances can be challenging: Concerning people ostensibly in need, when is compassion the right response and when is demanding that they take responsibility for themselves the right response? Of the two, free agency is in an important way more fundamental than compassion, as shown by the fact that God preferred a plan that emphasized the one over the other. It is more important than doing good deeds because only good that is done freely merits moral approbation and reward. Free agency is therefore a necessary condition for individual moral progress – and ultimately also for material progress as represented by gods creating worlds and exercising dominion over them. So far, so good, but . . . The Right Form of Government and Economic System The POS pretty clearly supports a libertarian political philosophy, including free market capitalism with minimal regulatory oversight of business and industry. Anything less would necessitate a sacrifice of free agency. In this connection, it is interesting that in the early days of Mormons in Utah, Brigham Young attempted to establish a very pure socialistic system, the “United Order,” that would have made Karl Marx envious. In doing so, he was clearly giving precedence to compassion, brotherly love, and cooperation over competition. Why? One can presumably imagine a morally perfect being, such as Jesus, who always chooses and does what is right without being forced to; and Brigham Young thought the Saints ought to give it a try. Unfortunately, the experiment failed. Too many of the Saints gave in to avarice when they saw a chance to make money selling stuff to overland travelers. And they weren’t anxious to share their lucre either. The Best of All Possible Worlds? In Mormon terms, the best of all possible worlds will be one in which all people freely live God’s commandments. If compassion is called for, like the “good Samaritan” they will show compassion even at the expense of personal inconvenience. And they will share their talents and possessions freely to advance the greater good – as was supposed to happen with the United Order experiment. However, real people and the real world being what they are, an astonishing amount of human suffering goes unalleviated – suffering that might be prevented or relieved to a considerable extent through the institution of government programs designed to promote the general welfare, e.g., Social Security and universal health care. Yet paradoxically, given the ethical primacy of respect for free agency over the duty of compassion, from the point of view of the POS such a world must be reckoned morally inferior to one in which there is more human suffering, perhaps much more, but less state coercion. This fact doesn’t fit comfortably with Jesus’s message of love and compassion in the New Testament. Ouch! Mormon Exceptionalism A person who has been indoctrinated with Mormon dogma, especially if he is also a male born into a privileged social and economic position, is physically attractive, intelligent, and charismatic, might easily come to believe that he is one of the fore-ordained or “chosen ones” of God who will play a critical role in the events of the last days, including perhaps saving the United States Constitution when it is “hanging by a thread,” as predicted in the uncanonized “White Horse Prophecy” that was reputedly delivered by the Mormon Church’s founder Joseph Smith in 1843. It is known that Mitt Romney had such delusions of grandeur when he was younger. Does he still? Sinning for the Lord Because Mormon eschatology views human history, from the War in Heaven through Armageddon, as a continuing war between the two great forces of good and evil , sinning for the Lord” might at times be a moral necessity. Indeed, in the opening pages of the Book of Mormon, the most prominent hero of the book, a revered Mormon prophet named Nephi, murdered a man named Laban in order to steal a genealogical record of his people to take with his family to the Americas. This act was ethically justified as follows: “And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands; Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.” (1 Nephi 4:12-13) (One can’t help but think of Romney’s shameless shape-shifting and etch-a-sketching.) Armageddon According to Mormon eschatology, we are now in the “last days” of our earthly estate, which explains the official name of the Mormon Church: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Surely Armageddon is not far off, when the forces of righteousness will permanently conquer and subdue the forces of evil. This will usher in a millennium of peace in which Jesus will return to Earth to rule, assisted by the most worthy of God’s children, a good many of whom will of course be Mormons. These elite will include men who are leaders of men and empire builders the likes of Mitt Romney. They will also be members of the “House of Israel,” which consists both of the descendants of the Biblical patriarch Jacob and people who are “adopted” into the House of Israel by being baptized Mormons. From the Mormon perspective, this implies a special affinity between Mormons and Jews that is reinforced by a common history of persecution. It’s an obvious step from this to the conclusion that ineluctable Armageddon will involve a war between the righteous nation of Israel and its supporters on the one side, and its enemies on the other. As things presently stand, we are talking here about a war to end all wars between Israel and Iran and their respective allies. Just what we don’t need! Tipping point Our nation has reached a point of extreme political and moral polarization, with the Republican-Tea Party on one side and the Democrat Party on the other, each vying for command of our future. One can say, accurately enough, that the one side fervently embraces the propositions listed at the beginning of this essay, while the other side vehemently rejects them. It is to be expected, therefore, that the views of the respective presidential nominees reflect this same stark opposition. While it is hardly likely that the upcoming election will resolve this clash of values for once and for all, all the indications are that it will mark a singular, momentous, and irreversible turning point in our nation’s history. Kirk Robinson, Ph.D., is an attorney (and former Mormon, having left decisively over 40 years ago) living in Salt Lake City. This article was originally posted at Counterpunch Last edited by mhgaffney; 11-03-2012 at 06:02 PM..

11-03-2012, 06:20 PM	#2
DAN_BRONCO_FAN golden knife winner winner of the golden knife award Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: colorado springs area Posts: 2,822 Adopt-a-Bronco: ray lewis knife	or if you want a more entertaining version of mormonism and what its about watch the south park episode also Joesph smith is part of the superbest friends so there South Park - Joseph Smith and the Creation of Mormonism from swingitjack on Vimeo. but mormons are the only ones to go to heaven Last edited by DAN_BRONCO_FAN; 11-03-2012 at 06:32 PM..

11-03-2012, 10:50 PM	#4
Kaylore 6-37, Raider fans. Yummy birds and snow! Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Ceti Alpha V Posts: 41,050 Adopt-a-Bronco: Wesley Duke	Yeah, a lot of this off. You're leaving out huge pieces of doctrine. For example the idea that the Earth is temporary so we can trash it is not anywhere in any doctrine. Our bodies are temporary too and we don't teach that we can trash them. Adam was given stewardship over the earth. Nowhere is he instructed to destroy it. Also, dubious connection - the idea that Romney wants to trash the earth. They "lying" is justified for God is not on at all. We're instructed to tell the truth for God even if it costs us our lives. Some Mormons don't like how Romney has ping-ponged on issues - especially abortion which is considered murder. Also the "gays are damned" is totally wrong for two reasons. 1.) We don't believe anyone will be damned and 2.) People will be judged according to their struggles. If a gay may did the best he could in the sight of Christ, he may have a greater glory than a perceived righteous man who slacked off. I don't disagree with the overall premise of the article - that Romney's faith and values are intertwined. But I think the article is reaching too far to force some things that aren't necessarily there. Harry Reid believes all those things and is the Democrat Senate Majority leader. Last edited by Kaylore; 11-03-2012 at 10:54 PM..

11-03-2012, 11:00 PM	#5
Vegas_Bronco Ring of Famer Fear is a lack of preparation. Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: 63 Yards Out Posts: 4,028 Adopt-a-Bronco: 1 Elam 1	Note to the world...this article is full of pure bull**** very poorly written. I think ill ask travis henry what its like to be a bronco and then assume all broncos have the same believes...cmon...dont be so gullable. If you want to know about mormonism, go to the right sources. Last edited by Vegas_Bronco; 11-03-2012 at 11:03 PM..

11-05-2012, 07:00 PM	#10
Vegas_Bronco Ring of Famer Fear is a lack of preparation. Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: 63 Yards Out Posts: 4,028 Adopt-a-Bronco: 1 Elam 1	* Women are subordinate to men. Women are not subordinate to men. They in fact are the most important part of the plan of salvation. Without women and their ability and inherent responsible nature, we would not exist. Give your wife, daughter, mother and grandmother a kiss and express your love to them often. Any good LDS member will definitely back up this teaching. Degrading or subjecting women to any circumstance is against the will of God and any man acting in this manner will lose touch of his eternal purpose in bringing he himself and his wife together as one with our Spiritual Heavenly Father. * People of color are, or were, morally underdeveloped compared to white people. People were inherently good as they were direct descendants of Adam and Eve. It was those that chose to do unjustly that had a fallen countenance. It is not correct to assume that LDS religion believes these were people of color. That is bigotry and incorrect teaching by those who are against or anti-LDS. When you sin, you lose happiness and the ability to project true spirituality - you are unhappy, unresolved, and lost in your purpose. Living against the will of God will create a lifestyle of unhappiness and selfishness - albeit you are happy momentarily, the true happiness and fullness of joy is missing. 70 years ago today - Nov 5, 1842 Nauvoo, Illinois. Joseph Smith received a visit from some Native Americans, who -"expressed great friendship for the Mormon people, and said they were their friends.-", [Source: BYU Studies Journal, volume 46, no. 4: A Chronology of the Life of Joseph Smith, http://byustudies.byu.edu] * Gays cannot become gods, i.e., will be damned. No man can become god that is not a discipline of Jesus Christ. This life is the test of our abilities to decipher good from evil and excercise our free agency. When we choose wrongly or incorrectly, we feel the lasting burn of sin. when we choose to do what it right, we are directly blessed with the blessing upon which that law is predicated. If we die in our sins, we cannot go and dig our body up and repent of the wrong doing which we have caused, nor can we erase the ill we have inflicted. Say your sorry to those you have wronged, carry no grudges, and live your life to the fullest. If those you have wronged do not forgive, pray for their forgiveness and be meek and longsuffering. If you have wronged someone, tell them you are not perfect but working on it and ask for foregiveness. Gays are not to be hated, but the act of sexual impurity with anyone or ones self is an act contrary to the laws of God and therefore is a sin. Gays are to be treated like anyone else and their challenges can and will be overcome with prayer and true intent to find what is right. * The correct political philosophy is libertarianism. - no, the correct political philosophy is to seek after good and follow the law of the land. * The best form of government fosters free-market capitalism with minimal regulatory oversight of business and industry. The best government allows a man to worship and exercise free agency. 'Let the things of Cesar be rendered to Cesar'...there is no room for money in the Halls of the Father...only goodnesss. http://mormon.org/ I'd love to give you my opinions on any other religion, but I'd rather someone from that church give you the correct interpretation of their procedures. Don't ever go to a doctor to get your car fixed....go to the source and ask their opinions. Invite the missionaries over and get to know the church through it's official representatives. They are willing to take a question or two. Oh, and everything on the internet is not all true...the article you posted is a good example of that. Last edited by Vegas_Bronco; 11-05-2012 at 07:08 PM..

11-03-2012, 06:47 PM	#3
orinjkrush ... Prospects for the future... Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DistrictOfCorruption Posts: 4,914 Adopt-a-Bronco: Ben Garland	well, as a system of thinking, it appears somewhat more developed than say, republican-ism or democrat-ism. maybe a little less than Mithra-ism or Elvis-ism. particularly like the 72 virgins on earth aspect, though. but where do the Moroni plates come in?

11-05-2012, 08:56 PM	#18
Kaylore 6-37, Raider fans. Yummy birds and snow! Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Ceti Alpha V Posts: 41,050 Adopt-a-Bronco: Wesley Duke	If you believe that Gay's should be allowed to be together because you don't think the government should interfere with peoples' personal and sexual choices, then you must agree to polygamy.

11-05-2012, 09:19 PM	#19
Rohirrim Partisan Human Cannonball Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Twixt Hell & Highwater Posts: 48,840	I consider every religion on Earth to be whacked. But it's fun to hear people argue about religion. It's like the Mad Hatter and the March Hare arguing about what time it is.

11-06-2012, 08:42 AM	#20
DAN_BRONCO_FAN golden knife winner winner of the golden knife award Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: colorado springs area Posts: 2,822 Adopt-a-Bronco: ray lewis knife	may i just add a WHAT? OH JUST GO WATCH SOUTH PARK

11-06-2012, 08:50 AM	#21
DAN_BRONCO_FAN golden knife winner winner of the golden knife award Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: colorado springs area Posts: 2,822 Adopt-a-Bronco: ray lewis knife	also Joseph Smith is the founder of Mormonism, and a member of the Super Best Friends. His powers include the ability to blow cold air and ice from his mouth.

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