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-   -   The Right Loses It Over Russia—Again (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=114946)

W*GS 03-23-2014 08:27 PM

The Right Loses It Over Russia—Again
 
The Right Loses It Over Russia—Again

Quote:

Conservative hysteria over Putin’s aggression in 2014 is eerily reminiscent of right-wing reaction to a previous Crimean adventure, at the dawn of the Cold War.

Rohirrim 03-23-2014 08:49 PM

Excellent article. Too bad the Right pays no attention to history, or anything else for that matter other than their dogma. Like I keep saying, if the Ukrainians aren't willing to shed blood for the Crimea, why should anybody else? And like this writer points out, Putin controls Europe's natural gas pipe. Europe won't do anything.

SoCalBronco 03-23-2014 08:54 PM

Actually, this presents a unique oppurtunity to weaken Russia and strengthen the US position. It's not really about Crimea, that actually was a part of Russia before they gifted it to Ukraine and they have a legitimate interest there as a warm water port. I don't care about the whole respect borders crap. Nor am I offended by Putins behavior. He's just protecting his interests and trying to expand to East Ukraine where all the resources are.

But Putins saber rattling presents an oppurtunity to pre emptively strangle a potential rival to death economically. Increase the sanctions to the extent that he turns off the gas to Europe in response. The US oil and energy boom which is expected to continue for decades presents a great chance to export it to Europe. We can make tons of money by replacing the Russian vacuum if that moron is stupid enough to turn off the gas. That's where his dollars come in. Go ahead and turn it off. Then we lift the export ban on gas and use it as an excuse to destroy all their oil/gas export income. That will destroy the ruble and Putins empire. He will be forced to beg China to buy oil and gas...lol. Bleed him dry and make his economy ****ing scream.

It is imperative to continue to hurt them economically...regardless of the pretext used. Russian demographics are awful and they have been trying to offer people economic incentives to have more kids. Well....when the ruble is crashing and the economy is dying, the population isn't going to have anymore kids that the parents can't feed with inflation skyrocketing cause their currency is ****. Then, any recent gains made in that population growth will be wiped away. Their markets have already been affected by the little we have done so far.

This "crisis" presents a tremendous oppurtunity to bury them under the guise of protecting an innocent country. More economic sanctions please.....and rub it in his face too PR wise to provoke a gas turnoff.

cutthemdown 03-23-2014 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rohirrim (Post 4079801)
Excellent article. Too bad the Right pays no attention to history, or anything else for that matter other than their dogma. Like I keep saying, if the Ukrainians aren't willing to shed blood for the Crimea, why should anybody else? And like this writer points out, Putin controls Europe's natural gas pipe. Europe won't do anything.

Who is asking for war or bloodshed.

The right only saying wow Obama was so wrong about Russia. He had all the signs. They did it in Georgia, Bush's I looked into his eyes BS was proven as Putin foolin GWB. Much like Syria asleep at the switch, no good policy in place to head it off. Just more Obama having no idea what is going on.

He made fun of Romney and Palin when they said Russia could invade Ukraine. He said hey Romney, the 80's wants its foreign policy back.

The left is right that Obama not positioned to do crap about it. That's what happens when you have a President like Carter or Obama. Obama had all the information and instead of laying out to Putin he wouldn't stand for it, Putin knew he could do it.

cutthemdown 03-23-2014 11:00 PM

I like how so cal thinks. Figure out a way to make it work for us no matter what. I love the idea of shipping large amounts of natural gas to Europe.

Just like the coal we don't burn here anymore, it all goes to China.

Rohirrim 03-24-2014 04:07 AM

Regardless of what we do, my point is, if the Ukrainians are not willing to die defending their homeland then there's nothing anybody can do about it. I agree with the idea of sanctions to a point. Of course, the Europeans won't cross a certain line. They have major economic problems of their own and certainly can't afford to be turning off the gas right now (which is why Putin moved now), or moving against Russia for the benefit of Ukraine. The cold calculus of the politics just don't add up for Europe.

But the key here is that there must be resistance. So far, the Russians have killed a few Ukrainian soldiers with complete impunity. Why haven't the Ukrainians killed any Russians? What stops petty tyrants and mobsters like Putin in their tracks is miring them in guerrilla warfare that causes unrest at home. How many times has this been proven? Frankly, if the Ukrainians are going to just lie down and surrender then so be it. Obama is a pathetic president and an embarrassment, AFAIC. But there's nothing he can do about this other than join NATO in sanctions, mouth some platitudes publicly while secretly supplying a guerrilla movement. If there is no movement, it's macht nichts to us. The Ukrainians have to kill some Russians.

nyuk nyuk 03-24-2014 08:03 AM

The Nation. One of the left's favored sources on par with Fox News. I'll be right on that.

This was a foreign coup in Ukraine using local proxies and little else.

nyuk nyuk 03-24-2014 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rohirrim (Post 4079801)
Excellent article. Too bad the Right pays no attention to history, or anything else for that matter yadda yadda yadda

The right pays no attention to liberal rags. Do you pay attention to Fox News?

cutthemdown 03-24-2014 10:01 AM

Liberal papers write unbiased news stories. Fox News is propaganda. When Dems stall an appointement for political reasons it's goog govt. When the Repubs do its obstruction.

cutthemdown 03-24-2014 10:02 AM

Also Europe is warming up because of global warming. They will need less and less natural gas right?

Rigs11 03-24-2014 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cutthemdown (Post 4079976)
Liberal papers write unbiased news stories. Fox News is propaganda. When Dems stall an appointement for political reasons it's goog govt. When the Repubs do its obstruction.

you sound like Barry:rofl:

DenverBrit 03-24-2014 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyuk nyuk (Post 4079893)
The Nation. One of the left's favored sources on par with Fox News. I'll be right on that.

This was a foreign coup in Ukraine using local proxies and little else.

LOL

You and Gaffney. :rofl:

Rohirrim 03-24-2014 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cutthemdown (Post 4079976)
Liberal papers write unbiased news stories. Fox News is propaganda. When Dems stall an appointement for political reasons it's goog govt. When the Repubs do its obstruction.

Wouldn't it be easier to just type: TLDR?

mhgaffney 03-24-2014 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCalBronco (Post 4079806)
Actually, this presents a unique oppurtunity to weaken Russia and strengthen the US position. It's not really about Crimea, that actually was a part of Russia before they gifted it to Ukraine and they have a legitimate interest there as a warm water port. I don't care about the whole respect borders crap. Nor am I offended by Putins behavior. He's just protecting his interests and trying to expand to East Ukraine where all the resources are.

But Putins saber rattling presents an oppurtunity to pre emptively strangle a potential rival to death economically. Increase the sanctions to the extent that he turns off the gas to Europe in response. The US oil and energy boom which is expected to continue for decades presents a great chance to export it to Europe. We can make tons of money by replacing the Russian vacuum if that moron is stupid enough to turn off the gas. That's where his dollars come in. Go ahead and turn it off. Then we lift the export ban on gas and use it as an excuse to destroy all their oil/gas export income. That will destroy the ruble and Putins empire. He will be forced to beg China to buy oil and gas...lol. Bleed him dry and make his economy ****ing scream.

It is imperative to continue to hurt them economically...regardless of the pretext used. Russian demographics are awful and they have been trying to offer people economic incentives to have more kids. Well....when the ruble is crashing and the economy is dying, the population isn't going to have anymore kids that the parents can't feed with inflation skyrocketing cause their currency is ****. Then, any recent gains made in that population growth will be wiped away. Their markets have already been affected by the little we have done so far.

This "crisis" presents a tremendous oppurtunity to bury them under the guise of protecting an innocent country. More economic sanctions please.....and rub it in his face too PR wise to provoke a gas turnoff.

As usual -- you are not paying attention. The US and Europe will be the main losers of sanctions against Russia.

Putin will simply increase gas sales to China.
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle38033.htm

How long do you think it would take the US to take up the slack? A year?

Germany will be in a world of trouble. In fact, it's surprising that Merkel has not stepped in to end this crisis. Surely she knows that it's in German's interest to move closer to Russia.

The memories of WW II are probably the biggest obstacle to this - but it needs to happen.

So what is deterring Merkel? Blackmail maybe? Do you think the NSA caught her doing something illegal -- or naughty in the bedroom?

MHG

DenverBrit 03-24-2014 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhgaffney (Post 4080041)
As usual -- you are not paying attention. The US and Europe will be the main losers of sanctions against Russia.

Putin will simply increase gas sales to China.
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle38033.htm

How long do you think it would take the US to take up the slack? A year?

Germany will be in a world of trouble. In fact, it's surprising that Merkel has not stepped in to end this crisis. Surely she knows that it's in German's interest to move closer to Russia.

The memories of WW II are probably the biggest obstacle to this - but it needs to happen.

So what is deterring Merkel? Blackmail maybe? Do you think the NSA caught her doing something illegal -- or naughty in the bedroom?

MHG

LOL

Will the 'stupid' never end??

W*GS 03-24-2014 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DenverBrit (Post 4080044)
LOL

Will the 'stupid' never end??

gaffe has an infinite supply of stupid to draw upon.

SoCalBronco 03-24-2014 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhgaffney (Post 4080041)
As usual -- you are not paying attention. The US and Europe will be the main losers of sanctions against Russia.

Putin will simply increase gas sales to China.
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle38033.htm

How long do you think it would take the US to take up the slack? A year?

Germany will be in a world of trouble. In fact, it's surprising that Merkel has not stepped in to end this crisis. Surely she knows that it's in German's interest to move closer to Russia.

The memories of WW II are probably the biggest obstacle to this - but it needs to happen.

So what is deterring Merkel? Blackmail maybe? Do you think the NSA caught her doing something illegal -- or naughty in the bedroom?

MHG

You are way off as usual. Yes of course he is going to try to sell to China instead. In fact they may have an agreement in May. Three big problems though: 1) Quantity of sales- They amount they are hoping to sell is roughly 25% what they sell now to the EU, so replacing Europe with China is a massive loss of revenue 2) Price of sales - With China as the main remaining purchaser, they have no leverage and reports are China wants a cheaper price than what EU was paying 3) Market Supply - If the US lifts its export ban, what do you think the extra supply of oil on the market will do to price? It will fall...and so will the Russian economy.

Oh and your theory about Merkel is totally plausible, Gaff. I'm sure most 70 year old hags are ****ing anything that moves and she's been caught by the NSA in the bedroom.

Seems legit.

DenverBrit 03-24-2014 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W*GS (Post 4080047)
gaffe has an infinite supply of stupid to draw upon.

It's a renewable resource, if only it could be harnessed for good, but no.

barryr 03-24-2014 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rigs11 (Post 4079983)
you sound like Barry:rofl:

In other words, it's true, but guys like you would rather pretend your thinking is so complex and deep. The reality is you're rather easy to figure out since hypocrisy has little to do with complexity.

W*GS 03-25-2014 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DenverBrit (Post 4080361)
It's a renewable resource, if only it could be harnessed for good, but no.

I wonder how many of this crap gaffe has covered.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3Lufulseck...0/ZghIM4Sh.jpg

mhgaffney 03-25-2014 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCalBronco (Post 4080263)
You are way off as usual. Yes of course he is going to try to sell to China instead. In fact they may have an agreement in May. Three big problems though: 1) Quantity of sales- They amount they are hoping to sell is roughly 25% what they sell now to the EU, so replacing Europe with China is a massive loss of revenue 2) Price of sales - With China as the main remaining purchaser, they have no leverage and reports are China wants a cheaper price than what EU was paying 3) Market Supply - If the US lifts its export ban, what do you think the extra supply of oil on the market will do to price? It will fall...and so will the Russian economy.

Oh and your theory about Merkel is totally plausible, Gaff. I'm sure most 70 year old hags are ****ing anything that moves and she's been caught by the NSA in the bedroom.

Seems legit.

I don't have a theory -- just questions.

Maybe you can explain why Merkel has rolled over for Obama.

DenverBrit 03-25-2014 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W*GS (Post 4080991)
I wonder how many of this crap gaffe has covered.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3Lufulseck...0/ZghIM4Sh.jpg

Add 'Russian propaganda is the troof, Putin's a saint, the West is evil' and it becomes the perfect storm of stupid.

cutthemdown 03-25-2014 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhgaffney (Post 4081008)
I don't have a theory -- just questions.

Maybe you can explain why Merkel has rolled over for Obama.

It's probably not that hard for Germany and America to make deals. The two countries have a lot of the same goals and strategic and financial interests.

I'm sure if she did something for Obama he gave her something in return. It's called deal making.

What exactly did she roll over on?

cutthemdown 03-25-2014 11:03 PM

The reason Europe not worried gaff is after the last time supplies were cut the EU made a plan. They have reserves of natural gas up the ying yang. Summer is coming, reserves or gas are at an all time high, and America could ship more.

This is the best time ever to not need Russian gas. Where do you get your information from. There are many articles talking about how the EU stockpiled gas.

Obushma 03-26-2014 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCalBronco (Post 4080263)
Yes of course he is going to try to sell to China instead. In fact they may have an agreement in May. Three big problems though: 1) Quantity of sales- They amount they are hoping to sell is roughly 25% what they sell now to the EU, so replacing Europe with China is a massive loss of revenue 2) Price of sales - With China as the main remaining purchaser, they have no leverage and reports are China wants a cheaper price than what EU was paying 3) Market Supply - If the US lifts its export ban, what do you think the extra supply of oil on the market will do to price? It will fall...and so will the Russian economy.

I believe you're missing one key point. Oil is traded in dollars, in this Russian/China agreement, Oil is traded in gold. That will be a massive hit to the US economy. So to say its no big deal, is really disingenuous.


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