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-   -   Fumble Benching (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=113143)

Gutless Drunk 11-26-2013 08:29 AM

Fumble Benching
 
Do you really think this is effective or is it just old-school neanderthal football culture? I guess it's not a black & white deal, but I think it was a bad idea last game.
I think you can also hurt the team by taking your talent off the field. I'm not certain they gain anything by benching- nobody wants to fumble. If it's Ridley and he has fumbled 4 games in a row I can see it. But this one fumble and you banished stuff is kind of extreme.

FWIW, Tom Nalen agrees -

As far as what went wrong for the Broncos, Nalen said they were running the ball well and towards the end of the game when Knowshon Moreno was starting to wear down they should have played Montee Ball more.

“Ball looked like the best back out there. He had the most explosive burst in his running game and looked like he was very confident,” Nalen said. “By sitting him on the sidelines because he fumbled … I think it hurt the team a little bit and maybe hurt his confidence.”


http://denver.cbslocal.com/2013/11/2...h-in-the-face/

Irish Stout 11-26-2013 08:31 AM

The few bursts I've seen from Ball in the last several games have been really encouraging. You absolutely cannot give up fumbles, but I agree that pulling any good RB after one fumble is not the best way to instill confidence. I think you maybe pull them from a series, have a chat about holding the rock, give a little encouragement, then send them back out there. If they fumble twice in a game, then you've got a serious problem.

TonyR 11-26-2013 08:34 AM

My issue with it is that we ran a crippled Moreno at a crucial point in the game instead of going with a fresh Ball. That's just stupid. Two carries for a guy who literally limped off the field moments before, with the game on the line.

Tombstone RJ 11-26-2013 08:35 AM

I think JDR's move of benching Ball after the fumble absolutely hurt the Broncos. Now, I'm a big Anderson fan too but the fact is that the muffed handoff was because Manning and Anderson are not used to each other and consequently there was almost another turnover.

Ball should have been playing. Period. End of story. Shame on JDR for being such a pansy ass HC.

Crushaholic 11-26-2013 08:39 AM

The person I feel bad for, is Anderson. Manning botched the handoff, and Anderson took all the blame...

LetsGoBroncos 11-26-2013 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ (Post 3981546)
I think JDR's move of benching Ball after the fumble absolutely hurt the Broncos. Now, I'm a big Anderson fan too but the fact is that the muffed handoff was because Manning and Anderson are not used to each other and consequently there was almost another turnover.

Ball should have been playing. Period. End of story. Shame on JDR for being such a pansy ass HC.

Agree 100%. Ball in the game late when Moreno went to the bench could have led us to a win. He was running well.

CHEF LUIGI 11-26-2013 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyR (Post 3981544)
My issue with it is that we ran a crippled Moreno at a crucial point in the game instead of going with a fresh Ball. That's just stupid. Two carries for a guy who literally limped off the field moments before, with the game on the line.

all true, but what is also true is that Ball does not seem to know the plays, has trouble lining up, cant honor a blocking assignment and his insecurity about the play call is probably at the foundation of his lack of confidence, insecurity and fumbling!
CJ looked lopst when he too entered the game!
maybe hillman, who looked like he knew the plays in pre-season, can pull a moreno and go from dog house to penthouse?
Save Ball for the goal line where he knows the playcalls and formations.

R8R H8R 11-26-2013 08:46 AM

In many cases, I agree with the benching, especially with the young guys. Apparently, the technique has worked for Moreno as he hasn't fumbled all year, and I don't remember him fumbling last year after he got out of the doghouse. So maybe it works with some guys.

However, in the case with Ball, I agree with Nalen. I think it hurt the team not having him out there. He was very effective and moving the chains a bit himself. CJ looked like the moment was a little too big for him at times. Ball's benching could have been for a couple of series or so, but near the end of the 4th and in OT, I think he could have really helped, and maybe Moreno doesn't get hurt.

DenverBound 11-26-2013 08:48 AM

Absolutely agree with OP. Sit him a series, give him a part on the back and send him back out. Ball will be fine. We definitely could have used him during that OT period.

CHEF LUIGI 11-26-2013 08:49 AM

as for the original question, I cant vouch for the effectiveness. but, if a team has a different RB that offers more ball security, then it is the right move,JMHO.
Odd that a QB can fumble multiple times or throw multiple INTs and his turnovers are treated differently by most coaches.
I guess that too depends on who the #2 QB is.
working on better ball carring technique is more effective than punishment.

SonOfLe-loLang 11-26-2013 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ (Post 3981546)
I think JDR's move of benching Ball after the fumble absolutely hurt the Broncos. Now, I'm a big Anderson fan too but the fact is that the muffed handoff was because Manning and Anderson are not used to each other and consequently there was almost another turnover.

Ball should have been playing. Period. End of story. Shame on JDR for being such a pansy ass HC.

I agree, but Belichick did the same thing with TWO of his running backs.

Just as someone who's neurotic, i think its hurtful to bench guys for fumbling because they will be terrified of making the same mistake next time out. And while that sounds like the point, it actually makes you tentative, not only opening you up for the same mistake again, but naturally making you less aggressive.

DenverBound 11-26-2013 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R8R H8R (Post 3981560)
In many cases, I agree with the benching, especially with the young guys. Apparently, the technique has worked for Moreno as he hasn't fumbled all year, and I don't remember him fumbling last year after he got out of the doghouse. So maybe it works with some guys.

However, in the case with Ball, I agree with Nalen. I think it hurt the team not having him out there. He was very effective and moving the chains a bit himself. CJ looked like the moment was a little too big for him at times. Ball's benching could have been for a couple of series or so, but near the end of the 4th and in OT, I think he could have really helped, and maybe Moreno doesn't get hurt.

It looked like Moreno got hurt getting up off the field. I love his style but if you're stuck under a big ugly, don't twist your ankle or knock it on the guys helmet trying to be the first guy off of the field.

SonOfLe-loLang 11-26-2013 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DenverBound (Post 3981561)
Absolutely agree with OP. Sit him a series, give him a part on the back and send him back out. Ball will be fine. We definitely could have used him during that OT period.

CJ was running pretty well too. It was just a mistake to bring knowshon back on a gimpy leg. Props to him for sucking it up, but they should have known not to send a guy back out there that was on a knee and wincing only a minute before.

DenverBound 11-26-2013 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHEF LUIGI (Post 3981562)
as for the original question, I cant vouch for the effectiveness. but, if a team has a different RB that offers more ball security, then it is the right move,JMHO.
Odd that a QB can fumble multiple times or throw multiple INTs and his turnovers are treated differently by most coaches.
I guess that too depends on who the #2 QB is.
working on better ball carring technique is more effective than punishment.

I think that's the whole argument here. We didn't have that next guy that could be trusted. Might as well give Tatum a call.

ScottXray 11-26-2013 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHEF LUIGI (Post 3981558)
all true, but what is also true is that Ball does not seem to know the plays, has trouble lining up, cant honor a blocking assignment and his insecurity about the play call is probably at the foundation of his lack of confidence, insecurity and fumbling!
CJ looked lopst when he too entered the game!
maybe hillman, who looked like he knew the plays in pre-season, can pull a moreno and go from dog house to penthouse?
Save Ball for the goal line where he knows the playcalls and formations.

Hillman still has small hands, and not the strongest arms. That's not going to change. He is good if you get him outside the edge, but runs up the middle he will still be getting stripped.
Obviously the backup RBs aren't getting enough reps if they don't know the plays.
That is a coaching failure...we are 11 games into the season. This stuff should be down pat.
Or maybe the RBs all take direction from PM on each play. Moreno knows what to do better, but maybe, again, that's cause he is getting nearly all the practice reps.

TheReverend 11-26-2013 08:56 AM

This fumbling issue is just as much on Studesville than it is on Ball and Hillman at this point.

It's an epidemic and they're clearly not prepared/unequipped to properly carry the football.

R8R H8R 11-26-2013 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHEF LUIGI (Post 3981558)
all true, but what is also true is that Ball does not seem to know the plays, has trouble lining up, cant honor a blocking assignment and his insecurity about the play call is probably at the foundation of his lack of confidence, insecurity and fumbling!
CJ looked lopst when he too entered the game!
maybe hillman, who looked like he knew the plays in pre-season, can pull a moreno and go from dog house to penthouse?
Save Ball for the goal line where he knows the playcalls and formations.

Not true about Ball, he knows the playbook. Maybe earlier in the year, but not now. Ball is much more valuable than just goal line. However, I agree with you on CJ. His problem is he doesn't get reps, but he will this week.

Hillman will get a second chance this week, I believe. Hopefully, he takes advantage of it.

yerner 11-26-2013 09:07 AM

This whole team has bad hands. Holliday, Hillman, Decker, Welker, Ball etc. It's a huge problem right now.

That said, I'd rather see what CJ can do. His run where he took it around the end was really nice. I don't think Ball or Moreno can do that.

Ratboy 11-26-2013 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yerner (Post 3981586)
This whole team has bad hands. Holliday, Hillman, Decker, Welker, Ball etc. It's a huge problem right now.

That said, I'd rather see what CJ can do. His run where he took it around the end was really nice. I don't think Ball or Moreno can do that.

We seen what CJ can do, he runs around like a chicken with his head cut off. He's a decent change of pace back, but he clearly does not know the plays.

He fumbled too.

SonOfLe-loLang 11-26-2013 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratboy (Post 3981592)
We seen what CJ can do, he runs around like a chicken with his head cut off. He's a decent change of pace back, but he clearly does not know the plays.

He fumbled too.

I thought he ran really well (though every bronco to touch the ball did.) I dunno if that fumble is really on him. Peyton placed that ball pretty high.

CHEF LUIGI 11-26-2013 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonOfLe-loLang (Post 3981566)
CJ was running pretty well too. It was just a mistake to bring knowshon back on a gimpy leg. Props to him for sucking it up, but they should have known not to send a guy back out there that was on a knee and wincing only a minute before.

kind of like wqhen the bears continued to play cutler when he too had no buisness being on the field.

Smiling Assassin27 11-26-2013 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irish Stout (Post 3981540)
The few bursts I've seen from Ball in the last several games have been really encouraging. You absolutely cannot give up fumbles, but I agree that pulling any good RB after one fumble is not the best way to instill confidence. I think you maybe pull them from a series, have a chat about holding the rock, give a little encouragement, then send them back out there. If they fumble twice in a game, then you've got a serious problem.

He hasn't fumbled once. He has fumbled multiple times in multiple games. Can you really keep giving them a stern talking to and putting them back out without having confidence in them to do their job?

Every RB is going to fumble. But this guy's averaging a fumble every 28 touches. If KM did this, he'd fumble once a game based on how many touches he gets.

SonOfLe-loLang 11-26-2013 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHEF LUIGI (Post 3981594)
kind of like wqhen the bears continued to play cutler when he too had no buisness being on the field.

and your point is? They should have had Know run a 40 before he went back in?

DENVERDUI55 11-26-2013 09:26 AM

If you fumble you can't play. Ball has fumbled a lot in his limited carries. It isn't like it was his first of the year.

Pony Boy 11-26-2013 09:32 AM

Belichick sent a strong message with the benching of Ridley so JDR felt the need to do the same with Ball. I would normally agree but this was basically playoff type conditions and we needed to go all in.

I also noticed Belichick didn't feel the need to bench Brady after his 2 fumbles or JDR with Manning’s fumbles, that would have went over like a fart in church.


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