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-   -   Criminal Background Checks on Private Firearm Sales (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=110080)

Pony Boy 02-04-2013 09:54 AM

Criminal Background Checks on Private Firearm Sales
 
Let’s say a law is passed requiring private individuals to pass a National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NCS) when conducting a sale or transfer of ownership of a firearm.

1. Does that mean both the seller and buyer must pass background checks or just the buyer?

2. If we both pass the background check are we then allowed to proceed with the sale in private or will we be required to register the make model and serial number of the firearm with the ATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms)? Say, I decide that I want to sell a firearm that was passed on to me from my grandfather. Obviously the original sale of the firearm cannot be traced to my grandfather and certainly not to me so why would I bother with a background check of the buyer?

3. There are millions and millions of firearms in the United States that were sold legally before 1998 that are not registered with the ATF. Therefore the law requiring private sellers to pass background checks would almost be impossible to enforce unless all firearms were registered with the ATF.

4. So by passing this law would are we opening the door for the ATF to eventually require all firearms to be registered?


I think only a handful in congress would dare cross that line.

W*GS 02-04-2013 10:06 AM

40% of sales don't go through the NICS.

Would we allow 40% of air travelers to bypass airport security?

peacepipe 02-04-2013 10:09 AM

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...bIOd-pEPHleINg

Pony Boy 02-04-2013 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peacepipe (Post 3792765)

Please tell me how this law if passed would be enforced, you didn't answer any of the questions?

If a farmer buys a new shotgun and passes the NICS check and then goes home and sells his old shotgun to his neighbor over the back fence, how will the Feds find out that transaction takes place?

Pony Boy 02-04-2013 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W*GS (Post 3792763)
40% of sales don't go through the NICS.

Would we allow 40% of air travelers to bypass airport security?

Should we require all passengers to do a criminal background or mental illness check before they can purchase an airline ticket or would this be a violation of their civil rights? We could add everyone to the no-fly list until they pass a background check.

peacepipe 02-04-2013 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pony Boy (Post 3792824)
Should we require all passengers to do a criminal background or mental illness check before they can purchase an airline ticket or would this be a violation of their civil rights? We could add everyone to the no-fly list until they pass a background check.

no,but all should go through security. just like all should get a BG check to buy a gun.

Pony Boy 02-04-2013 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peacepipe (Post 3792845)
no,but all should go through security. just like all should get a BG check to buy a gun.

Everyone that buys a new gun from a licensed dealer does go through a background check, it's the law.

You haven't answered the question, how will the sale between two private individuals of a legally owned firearm be enforced if there are no records of that firearm in the ATF files.

Yes, this is a loophole and there no way out of it unless you require all firearms in the U.S. to be registered with the ATF, and I can see all the knuckle draggers with their pants down below their ass getting in line to register their stolen guns.

cutthemdown 02-04-2013 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peacepipe (Post 3792845)
no,but all should go through security. just like all should get a BG check to buy a gun.

I could handle that for guns. You have a valid passport, you go through a metal detector into the gun shop. It takes a few hours as they verify you aren't a felon in a database, then you buy your gun and walk out.

Going through airport security takes a couple hours at the most in my experience. Are you saying that is about what you want for people to have to wait to get their guns?

I heard one liberal on the radio saying if it takes 3 months to do a proper background check then a person should have to wait 3 months to buy a gun.

do you agree with that liberal? Would you consider a 3 month waiting period to be acceptable to check someones background?

cutthemdown 02-04-2013 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pony Boy (Post 3792824)
Should we require all passengers to do a criminal background or mental illness check before they can purchase an airline ticket or would this be a violation of their civil rights? We could add everyone to the no-fly list until they pass a background check.

Why are you trying to make it so Peace can't fly? Even crazy people deserve to go on vacation!

peacepipe 02-04-2013 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cutthemdown (Post 3792980)
I could handle that for guns. You have a valid passport, you go through a metal detector into the gun shop. It takes a few hours as they verify you aren't a felon in a database, then you buy your gun and walk out.

Going through airport security takes a couple hours at the most in my experience. Are you saying that is about what you want for people to have to wait to get their guns?

I heard one liberal on the radio saying if it takes 3 months to do a proper background check then a person should have to wait 3 months to buy a gun.

do you agree with that liberal? Would you consider a 3 month waiting period to be acceptable to check someones background?

BG checks are only 3 days,5 minutes if its a rifle. even the head of the NRA supported closing gun show loop holes & 100% BG checks. of course it was no problem then after columbine,but now after newtown its a problem.

peacepipe 02-04-2013 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pony Boy (Post 3792884)
Everyone that buys a new gun from a licensed dealer does go through a background check, it's the law.

You haven't answered the question, how will the sale between two private individuals of a legally owned firearm be enforced if there are no records of that firearm in the ATF files.

Yes, this is a loophole and there no way out of it unless you require all firearms in the U.S. to be registered with the ATF, and I can see all the knuckle draggers with their pants down below their ass getting in line to register their stolen guns.

only people talking about a registry are you & that idoit lapierre. there is no registry being pushed so their is no point in debating it.

cutthemdown 02-04-2013 05:46 PM

I can't say i am against going through a reasonable background check. Thats it though nothing more peace? You are happy just with a background check for felonies right? This background check doesn't go into you went to a shrink once because you were depressed right? Its only based on felony convictions?

cutthemdown 02-04-2013 05:49 PM

Also though I understand the NRA fighting every inch. Thats the best way to do it in Washington DC nowdays. Fight over the background checks and let that take steam out of the assault weapons ban. Otherwise you say right off we agree to background checks, the anti gun crowd would go straight to the next level of their agenda.

You agree with that Peace don't you? That is NRA conceeded the background check the fight would still move on to the clip size, maybe assault weapons ban etc. Not like agreeing to the background check makes the fight end so there is no reason to support it at this point, not for the NRA.

cutthemdown 02-04-2013 05:55 PM

What i am asking peace is do you at least understand why the NRA fights so hard on every issue? its because they know the gun control crowd wants so much more then that. So you fight every issue to sap up the oppositions resources and time.

Immigration control, tax reform, N korea/Iran nuclear expansion, bad relationship with Russia, and a Palestinian still needed some sort of attention from Obama. Egypt a mess, Syria a mess, Libya a mess...hell they make the random bombing in Iraq seem like vacation. Syrians are going on vacation to Baghdad to get away from it all lol.

The NRA knows all of that these guys are not stupid. They turn 5 million members into a lot of money and use it well. They will target vulnerable dems and the vulnerable ones dont want to deal with too much NRA money going against them.

I think Obama only has so long to fight about guns. The NRA will fight tooth and nail right now on every issue to water down the final bill or outright defeat anything, leaving Obama to executive orders that could be overturned by Supreme Court if they went to far. In the end Obama is going to want to move on IMO.

Pony Boy 02-04-2013 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cutthemdown (Post 3793072)
I can't say i am against going through a reasonable background check. Thats it though nothing more peace? You are happy just with a background check for felonies right? This background check doesn't go into you went to a shrink once because you were depressed right? Its only based on felony convictions?

I don't have a problem with a background when purchasing from a firearm dealer. I bought a Ruger LCP 380 semi-automatic handgun from a licensed dealer about 3 months ago, they performed a background check, filled out 4473 form and I was out the door with the gun in 20 minutes.

The problem is Obama calling for universal background checks that would require background checks between private citizens. That would be impossible to enforce.

cutthemdown 02-04-2013 09:59 PM

I do agree that private sales would be impossible to enforce. How could you stop a person from selling a gun the govt has no idea exists?

peacepipe 02-05-2013 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cutthemdown (Post 3793072)
I can't say i am against going through a reasonable background check. Thats it though nothing more peace? You are happy just with a background check for felonies right? This background check doesn't go into you went to a shrink once because you were depressed right? Its only based on felony convictions?

BG check should be no different than the BG checks 60% of gun buyers go through now.

hard to enforce murder charges if the state/gov. isnt aware of a murder. should we get rid of murder/manslaughter charges simply because they are not perfect in detering crime.

Pony Boy 02-05-2013 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cutthemdown (Post 3793119)
I do agree that private sales would be impossible to enforce. How could you stop a person from selling a gun the govt has no idea exists?

Yes it would be impossible to enforce background checks on private sales.
Firearm dealers are only required to keep a copy of the FFL 4473 form filled out by the buyer for 20 years. This form with the buyer’s information and firearm make, model and serial number are kept with the firearm dealer in a binder and the information is never given to the ATF unless requested in a criminal investigation.

peacepipe 02-05-2013 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cutthemdown (Post 3793077)
What i am asking peace is do you at least understand why the NRA fights so hard on every issue? its because they know the gun control crowd wants so much more then that. So you fight every issue to sap up the oppositions resources and time.

Immigration control, tax reform, N korea/Iran nuclear expansion, bad relationship with Russia, and a Palestinian still needed some sort of attention from Obama. Egypt a mess, Syria a mess, Libya a mess...hell they make the random bombing in Iraq seem like vacation. Syrians are going on vacation to Baghdad to get away from it all lol.

The NRA knows all of that these guys are not stupid. They turn 5 million members into a lot of money and use it well. They will target vulnerable dems and the vulnerable ones dont want to deal with too much NRA money going against them.

I think Obama only has so long to fight about guns. The NRA will fight tooth and nail right now on every issue to water down the final bill or outright defeat anything, leaving Obama to executive orders that could be overturned by Supreme Court if they went to far. In the end Obama is going to want to move on IMO.

I understand completely why NRA leadership fights so hard,it is how they make their money from gun manufacturers,who are the ones the NRA really represent.
Theres nothing obama has done that SCOTUS will overturn,even if a AR ban(not going to happen) is passed through congress.

peacepipe 02-05-2013 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pony Boy (Post 3793160)
Yes it would be impossible to enforce background checks on private sales. Firearm dealers are only required to keep a copy of the FFL 4473 form filled out by the buyer for 20 years. This form with the buyer’s information and firearm make, model and serial number are kept with the firearm dealer in a binder and the information is never given to the ATF unless requested in a criminal investigation.

yeah,but if a criminal who would have failed a BG check,then goes and kills someone,said seller can be held liable for that sale.

cutthemdown 02-05-2013 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peacepipe (Post 3793227)
I understand completely why NRA leadership fights so hard,it is how they make their money from gun manufacturers,who are the ones the NRA really represent.
Theres nothing obama has done that SCOTUS will overturn,even if a AR ban(not going to happen) is passed through congress.

Well Obama hasn't done anything yet to get overturned so that is a moot point.

peacepipe 02-05-2013 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cutthemdown (Post 3793278)
Well Obama hasn't done anything yet to get overturned so that is a moot point.

he did sign 23 executive actions on this issue.

peacepipe 02-05-2013 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cutthemdown (Post 3793278)
Well Obama hasn't done anything yet to get overturned so that is a moot point.

so lets say a AR ban were to get passed,along with limits on clip capacities. does it overturned?

Pony Boy 02-05-2013 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peacepipe (Post 3793229)
yeah,but if a criminal who would have failed a BG check,then goes and kills someone,said seller can be held liable for that sale.

Before 1998 the only thing the ATF required a licensed firearm dealer to do was verify the buyer had valid identification and that he answered no to all the questions on 4473 form. That form released the seller from any responsibility related to buyer’s use of the firearm in any criminal activity.

cutthemdown 02-05-2013 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peacepipe (Post 3793320)
so lets say a AR ban were to get passed,along with limits on clip capacities. does it overturned?

If Congress passed it no it would be perfectly fine most likely. By executive order they might though. They dont want a precedent where presidents just bypass congress all the time.

Would you really want your President to have that much power peace?


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