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02-02-2013 12:01 PM

Gun Control
 
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All for one, and one for all.

02-02-2013 02:05 PM

How many lives could have been saved in this one incident, liberals?

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Blart 02-02-2013 02:40 PM

Fiction wins more arguments than fact, but in case anyone's interested:

I'm comparing 3 things,

1) The richest countries (by GDP per capita),
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...%29_per_capita

2) Compared with a list of countries by firearm-releated deaths,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate

3) as well as overall *intentional* homicide rate (because without guns, people will use knives right?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate


GDP Rank (per capita) / Country / firearm death rate (per 100,000) / homicide rate (per 100,000)

1. Luxembourg 1.81 / 2.5
2. Qatar 0.18 / 0.9
3. Norway 1.78 / 0.6
4. Switzerland 3.84 / 0.7
5. Australia 1.05 /1.0
6. Denmark 1.45 / 0.9
7. Sweden 1.47 / 1.0
8. Canada 2.13 / 1.6
9. Netherlands 0.46 / 1.1
10. Austria 2.94 / 0.6
11. Singapore 0.24 / 0.3
12. Finland 3.64 / 2.2
13. United States: 10.2 / 4.8

(firearm death & homicide rate don't add up, because firearm deaths aren't always a homicide, evidence may be inconclusive, or different countries have different definitions of homicide.)

Conclusion:
There are a couple correlations I see right away. One is that more guns often correlates with more homicides.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_...ita_by_country

Another correlation is more poverty = more homicides. Compare the USA and Switzerland, or Canada and Austria. USA and Switzerland are the #1 and #2 gun-owning countries in the world, but the USA has nearly 8 times the homicides of Switzerland, despite just 2 times the guns. One big difference? One state doubles their welfare spending, reducing poverty to just 3.8%, while the USA nears 12% poverty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare...ect_on_poverty

W*GS 02-02-2013 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyuk nyuk (Post 3791900)
How many lives could have been saved in this one incident, liberals?

Impossible to say.

How many lives wouldn't have been ended if Ms. Lanza had properly secured her weapons?

Blart 02-02-2013 02:53 PM

If we're going on anecdotal evidence rather than statistical, here ya go,

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02-02-2013 02:57 PM

Blaming gun violence on poverty and thus society by extension by rolling out the who-does-more argument.

Yet another example of how the left continuously place the behavior of lower classes on everyone but the lower classes. Absolving the responsibility for the behavior of someone because he's poor or some other trait only encourages said behavior to continue.

Get this one: I don't care how poor you are. Don't behave like an animal.

W*GS 02-02-2013 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyuk nyuk (Post 3791913)
Get this one: I don't care how poor you are. Don't behave like an animal.

I agree. Wealth is also no excuse for misbehavior. It's past time we put the fraud artists from Wall Street on trial, don't you agree?

02-02-2013 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blart (Post 3791910)
If we're going on anecdotal evidence rather than statistical, here ya go,

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So apparently a nervous early 20something guy without much training represents CCW owners. I'm duly impressed. I'll be even more impressed when ABC gets off the anti-gun liberal bandwagon its gotten butt sores on for decades.

There are already ample cases of such incidences saving lives, one of the most recent being a CCW holder in Salt Lake City stopping a mass stabbing spree.

EDIT: That's ABC News, who have already been caught staging stories. 50/50 the whole thing was a hoax anyway.

:afro:

02-02-2013 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W*GS (Post 3791915)
I agree. Wealth is also no excuse for misbehavior. It's past time we put the fraud artists from Wall Street on trial, don't you agree?

Money PERIOD. But let's face it - it's not "fraud artists from Wall Street" who are spraying black and Latino neighborhoods with gunfire.

Blart 02-02-2013 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyuk nyuk (Post 3791917)
There are already ample cases of such incidences saving lives, one of the most recent being a CCW holder in Salt Lake City stopping a mass stabbing spree.

By your reasoning, shouldn't more guns = less violence? I don't see that correlation in the statistics above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyuk nyuk (Post 3791913)
Absolving the responsibility for the behavior of someone because he's poor or some other trait only encourages said behavior to continue.

What should be done instead? Crack down on crime? That doesn't seem to be solving much.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rceration_rate

USA: Rank #1
Switzerland: Rank #167

Nope, I think they're doing something a bit different to decrease homicides. I'm open to your ideas on exactly what that is :angel:

W*GS 02-02-2013 03:04 PM

We Americans are quite irresponsible with our firearms.

We suffer far more death and injury than the Swiss, despite the fact that they have almost as many firearms per capita as we do. What maturity towards firearms do the Swiss have that we can examine and learn from, and maybe incorporate into our relationship with our weapons?

02-02-2013 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W*GS (Post 3791909)
Impossible to say.

How many lives wouldn't have been ended if Ms. Lanza had properly secured her weapons?

There are a number of factors to consider. It's also possible that if she had locked them up to your liking that she could have faced a situation in which a home burglar would have subdued her before she could unlock them.

Statistically, which of the two situations are far more likely to happen to the average person? 1) Psycho offspring caps you with your own gun and shoots a bunch of kids to spite you, or 2) Home burglary and lack of ability to get to a protection weapon quickly? In her case, a meteorite struck and it was option 1.

Btw, mandatory trigger locks have already been shown unconstitutional, so you're barking up the wrong tree. There is no justification for calling for forced weapons lockups in the extremely rare what-if scenario.

I'm also a stringent believer that a CCW at the Century Aurora could have brought down the orange-haired hedgehog before he did much harm - if any - to patrons that night.

W*GS 02-02-2013 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyuk nyuk (Post 3791918)
Money PERIOD. But let's face it - it's not "fraud artists from Wall Street" who are spraying black and Latino neighborhoods with gunfire.

It would be nice to know how these criminals have such easy access to guns.

On the other hand, it was the US financial industry that damn near toppled the global economy. In the bigger picture, that's far more damaging. Put the ardor you have for prosecuting criminals to good use. Demand that the individuals responsible for the biggest economic disaster since the Great Depression be punished for their deeds.

02-02-2013 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W*GS (Post 3791920)
We Americans are quite irresponsible with our firearms.

We suffer far more death and injury than the Swiss, despite the fact that they have almost as many firearms per capita as we do. What maturity towards firearms do the Swiss have that we can examine and learn from, and maybe incorporate into our relationship with our weapons?

Unsurprisingly you leave out that the US has a big problem with gangsterism, which is the large majority of gun violence incidents in this country. The Swiss don't have such issues. No Crips, Bloods, 13s, or likewise.

I see no reason to condemn an entire nation for walking fecal smear gangster behavior.

02-02-2013 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W*GS (Post 3791924)
It would be nice to know how these criminals have such easy access to guns.

On the other hand, it was the US financial industry that damn near toppled the global economy. In the bigger picture, that's far more damaging. Put the ardor you have for prosecuting criminals to good use. Demand that the individuals responsible for the biggest economic disaster since the Great Depression be punished for their deeds.

I'm rather mystified at how losing one's job is more damaging than being physically attacked in the street. If I have to choose between the two, I know the route I'm taking.

This country has a huge black market of stolen goods of all types. I used to have a coworker from New Mexico that was magically acquiring spiffy new electronics and reselling them for cheaper than market value.

W*GS 02-02-2013 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyuk nyuk (Post 3791923)
There are a number of factors to consider. It's also possible that if she had locked them up to your liking that she could have faced a situation in which a home burglar would have subdued her before she could unlock them.

Statistically, which of the two situations are far more likely to happen to the average person? 1) Psycho offspring caps you with your own gun and shoots a bunch of kids to spite you, or 2) Home burglary and lack of ability to get to a protection weapon quickly? In her case, a meteorite struck and it was option 1.

Btw, mandatory trigger locks have already been shown unconstitutional, so you're barking up the wrong tree. There is no justification for calling for forced weapons lockups in the extremely rare what-if scenario.

Who said anything about mandatory or forced? I just noted that Ms. Lanza didn't properly secure her weapons. Obviously.

It would behoove the pro-RKBA folks to work harder on responsible firearm ownership, instead of fearmongering and insisting that tyranny is very nearly upon us so time to arsenal up. I'm an NRA Life Member, and I'd disheartened by the vitriol and paranoia that permeates their writing. They and the other pro-RKBA groups need to step up the maturity of their arguments, and quit relying so much on fear, fear, fear, fear, fear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyuk nyuk
I'm also a stringent believer that a CCW at the Century Aurora could have brought down the orange-haired hedgehog before he did much harm - if any - to patrons that night.

Impossible to know. Your belief is an act of faith - very difficult to prove.

02-02-2013 03:15 PM

I'll throw another bone into the pot: We shouldn't NEED CCW permits to begin with. These hoops only hamper law abiding citizens and do zilch to deter criminals. What's with the bullcrap of trying to stop street crime by slapping more regulations on law abiding citizens?

Did the 2nd amendment say "only after a background check may you carry your weapon"?

DenverBrit 02-02-2013 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W*GS (Post 3791927)
Who said anything about mandatory or forced? I just noted that Ms. Lanza didn't properly secure her weapons. Obviously.

It would behoove the pro-RKBA folks to work harder on responsible firearm ownership, instead of fearmongering and insisting that tyranny is very nearly upon us so time to arsenal up. I'm an NRA Life Member, and I'd disheartened by the vitriol and paranoia that permeates their writing. They and the other pro-RKBA groups need to step up the maturity of their arguments, and quit relying so much on fear, fear, fear, fear, fear.



Impossible to know. Your belief is an act of faith - very difficult to prove.

Bingo!

W*GS 02-02-2013 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyuk nyuk (Post 3791925)
Unsurprisingly you leave out that the US has a big problem with gangsterism, which is the large majority of gun violence incidents in this country. The Swiss don't have such issues. No Crips, Bloods, 13s, or likewise.

Just how much gun-related death (and injury) is caused by "gangs" (whatever that means)? Do you have any hard data? No, the gun homicide rate among black teen males isn't sufficient.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyuk nyuk
I see no reason to condemn an entire nation for walking fecal smear gangster behavior.

What causes gangs and what can be done to make them less attractive and eventually eliminated? Or are they an intractable problem with no solution?

W*GS 02-02-2013 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyuk nyuk (Post 3791926)
I'm rather mystified at how losing one's job is more damaging than being physically attacked in the street. If I have to choose between the two, I know the route I'm taking.

Literally trillions in wealth was wiped off the collective balance sheet. More people suffered huge financial losses than were victims of assault.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyuk nyuk
This country has a huge black market of stolen goods of all types. I used to have a coworker from New Mexico that was magically acquiring spiffy new electronics and reselling them for cheaper than market value.

From where are these stolen guns coming, and how is it that they're stolen?

As for your coworker, what did you do about it?

W*GS 02-02-2013 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DenverBrit (Post 3791929)
Bingo!

We always hear from conservatives that it's up to Muslims to denounce and eliminate the jihadists from their communities; it's up to blacks to rebuild families and stop the problems caused by single motherhood; it's up to Hispanics to clean up their problems.

I figure that the pro-RKBA crowd can be given the same lecture and clean out the bad apples in the community of gun owners.

Dukes 02-02-2013 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blart (Post 3791919)
By your reasoning, shouldn't more guns = less violence? I don't see that correlation in the statistics above.

Probably because most gun related crimes happen in large cities with massive gun restrictions. Chicago, NY, LA, DC, Detroit.

Put a sign up in your front yard or window that says "gun free house" and let us know what happens.

W*GS 02-02-2013 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dukes (Post 3791933)
Put a sign up in your front yard or window that says "gun free house" and let us know what happens.

Put up a sign in your front yard that says "Protected by Smith & Wesson" and let us know what happens.

Dukes 02-02-2013 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W*GS (Post 3791934)
Put up a sign in your front yard that says "Protected by Smith & Wesson" and let us know what happens.

I've got one that says "We don't call 911" with a revolver under it. Haven't had anyone try anything so far.

02-02-2013 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W*GS (Post 3791927)
Who said anything about mandatory or forced? I just noted that Ms. Lanza didn't properly secure her weapons. Obviously

I already gave you two potential scenarios, one in which explains why people are against trigger locks and other forced security measures. What do you consider "properly secured"? What are the chances that someone in the home takes those guns and uses them on their mother and others outside the home? Yes - One in over 300,000,000. Not remotely enough to debate over.

Quote:

It would behoove the pro-RKBA folks to work harder on responsible firearm ownership, instead of fearmongering and insisting that tyranny is very nearly upon us so time to arsenal up. I'm an NRA Life Member, and I'd disheartened by the vitriol and paranoia that permeates their writing. They and the other pro-RKBA groups need to step up the maturity of their arguments, and quit relying so much on fear, fear, fear, fear, fear.
Responsible ownership is often in the eye of the beholder. I'm going to be purchasing a CCW weapon. 1) Visit a gun range and try out guns, (I lean toward the .357 2" barrel based on advice from a lifelong sportsman friend) 2) Purchase the gun of my choice along with a lock box, 3) Take an NRA-approved CCW course, and 4) Apply for the CCW license.

I think that's responsible, but not everyone needs to take my path, nor should they be forced to.


Quote:

Impossible to know. Your belief is an act of faith - very difficult to prove.
I don't believe it is. For one thing, I listened carefully to what the witnesses recounted. There was enough visibility that they saw him emerge through the door with weapons, they saw what he was wearing, they saw what he was carrying, they saw where he was. He was standing on the stairs in the upper section of seats when he paused to reload. Secondly, the Century Aurora theater re-opened to the public less than 2 weeks ago. I went to catch a movie there to support the theater and the community. I in specific went to sit in row 2 of the old Theater 9 which is now Auditorium XD about 20 feet from the still-there emergency exit door Holmes used. I inspected the layout of the place quite closely. It's not that dark in there during a film that you couldn't have seen him and shot his ass off, sorry. Just my humble opinion.


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