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orangeatheist 02-01-2013 09:18 AM

History of Venus
 
This thread is an opportunity for Mark Gaffney to enlighten the collective members of this forum on his ideas for the history of the planet Venus.

For a point of reference, here is a brief history of the formation of our solar system, including Venus as accepted by mainstream science:

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/yERX5pISaUQ?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

A shorter history from Stephen Hawking:

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Uhy1fucSRQI?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Here is a more specific look at the solar system's inner planets:

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/UA2dzghdYdQ?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

And a brief video regarding planet formation:

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/G1f_grkp398?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

W*GS 02-01-2013 09:19 AM

Here's your chance to shine, gaffe. Impress us all with your science chops.

cutthemdown 02-01-2013 09:38 AM

Who cares! so he thinks its a comet.

mhgaffney 02-01-2013 03:55 PM

OK but the origins of Venus is only part of it.

The thread needs to be about the present science paradigm, why it is inadequate, and why we need to move ASAP to the next paradigm.

The Big Bang and the associated ice comet model are the equivalent of the flat earth model of the 15th century -- just before Copernicus.

I start with this principle - the present model will not allow us to become sustainable on the planet. We will continue to destroy earth -- unless we change our economy and especially the way we use energy. We must become much more efficient.

The present Big Bang cosmological paradigm cannot provide for this. It is deficient because it does not incorporate electromagnetism. It is strictly based on gravity.

Yet many electromagnetic phenomenon -- including a range of discoveries made in only the last 20 years -- are crying out to be explained and accounted for.

But let us start with Venus. You need to understand how anomalous the planet is. 100% of the planet is volcanic. The surface temperatures are extreme -- and are the same at the poles and at the equator. How is this explained?

Why is Venus so hot? W*gs says its because of a runaway greenhouse effect -- but this is unproven. W*gs makes pronouncements -- but does this make it so? Hell no.

There is no way a greenhouse effect can cause vulcanism over 100% of a planet. No way. Venus is not that much closer to the sun than earth.

And when you rule this out -- you are left with a major unexplained phenomenon.

Discussion.

MHG

Rohirrim 02-01-2013 04:40 PM

I'd call 162 million miles pretty damn closer.

cutthemdown 02-01-2013 04:41 PM

Sorry but just saying the theory is wrong doesn't cut it. They are discovering more and more about the universe every day. Black holes have different ways of behaving, some dormant, some sucking in so much energy they glow bright etc. Now they think every star probably has planets around it. You're wrong on the comets they have studied them enough to know if they are frozen and what the core is made of. You certainly don't think its a conspiracy right? You just think they are 100% wrong, like 99.99 % of all scientist in the field?

hard for me to buy that.

mhgaffney 02-01-2013 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cutthemdown (Post 3791702)
Sorry but just saying the theory is wrong doesn't cut it. They are discovering more and more about the universe every day. Black holes have different ways of behaving, some dormant, some sucking in so much energy they glow bright etc. Now they think every star probably has planets around it. You're wrong on the comets they have studied them enough to know if they are frozen and what the core is made of. You certainly don't think its a conspiracy right? You just think they are 100% wrong, like 99.99 % of all scientist in the field?

hard for me to buy that.

Answer the question. Why is Venus 100% volcanic -- even at the poles?

Greenhouse warming cannot explain it.

The cloud cover on Venus is so dense that the sunlight cannot even penetrate it -- so this alone precludes a greenhouse effect.

MHG

mhgaffney 02-01-2013 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rohirrim (Post 3791701)
I'd call 162 million miles pretty damn closer.

Huh? Better recheck your numbers.

mhgaffney 02-01-2013 05:46 PM

Science fails to explain lightning on Venus -- or earth...

Soviet space probes in the late 1960s and early 1970s found evidence of intense lightning bolts in the atmosphere of Venus.

US mainstream scientists refused to accept the evidence. Why? Because the atmosphere of Venus is totally calm. There is no wind -- not even a breeze.

The then current model of lightning for earth -- static charging -- could therefor not apply - so US scientists rejected the findings. They defended the static charging model -- and tossed out the hard evidence.

Today we know the Soviet probes were correct. Venus does have lightning. In fact, ALL the planets have lightning. Except maybe Mercury -- which is so close to the sun it has no atmosphere.

Yet in 2005 Dr Joseph Dwyer, a leading US scientist, acknowledged that the static charging model had collapsed. Static charging cannot explain the enormous energy in lightning bolts. Not even close.

Don't believe it? Here's the link:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...ut-of-the-blue

In other words, the current science paradigm cannot explain a phenomenon we all know - lightning.

In his paper Dwyer said we are back to square one -- back to the time of Ben Franklin experimenting with kites in lightning storms.

We know lightning is electricity -- but where does it come from?

It's a major anomaly -- and it's related to the origins of Venus.

The answer is that the electricity in lightning comes from the sun. This is the next paradigm. Much of the sun's energy is electric -- not just visible light.
MHG

Fedaykin 02-01-2013 05:59 PM

Did you know that, without an atmosphere, the average temperature on Earth would be around -5 degrees Fahrenheit (-15C) instead of +60 (+15C)?

Fedaykin 02-01-2013 06:08 PM

/popcorn

mhgaffney 02-01-2013 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fedaykin (Post 3791739)
/popcorn

Answer the question. Why is 100% of the surface of Venus volcanic -- even the poles.

Answer the question: where does the electricity in lightning come from?

(hint: from the sun)

MHG

Fedaykin 02-01-2013 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rohirrim (Post 3791701)
I'd call 162 million miles pretty damn closer.

~41million miles actually, yet the sentiment is correct.


Average surface temperature of Earth if it had no atmosphere: -5F
Average surface temperature of Venus if it had no atmosphere: +150F

If you'd like to see the math, I'll show it.

And of course, that's average. Earth surface temperature temperature can vary by almost over 260F (coldest temp recorded: -128.6F in Antarctica, hottest: 134F in death valley).

The average surface temp of earth is actually ~60F, which tells you how much influence the greenhouse effect has.

frerottenextelway 02-01-2013 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhgaffney (Post 3791718)
Answer the question. Why is Venus 100% volcanic -- even at poles?

Jewish bankers.

Fedaykin 02-01-2013 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhgaffney (Post 3791740)
Answer the question. Why is 100% of the surface of Venus volcanic -- even the poles.

You always come up with some funny head scratchers. Why on Venus (ha!) are you stuck on volcanic activity at the poles?

Quote:

Answer the question: where does the electricity in lightning come from?

(hint: from the sun)

MHG
No, it doesn't. The solar wind is not electrically charged. We've measured it, directly. The claim that it is simply does not fit the evidence.

W*GS 02-01-2013 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhgaffney (Post 3791676)
But let us start with Venus. You need to understand how anomalous the planet is. 100% of the planet is volcanic.

What does that mean?

See also VOLCANISM AND TECTONICS ON VENUS

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhgaffney
The surface temperatures are extreme -- and are the same at the poles and at the equator. How is this explained?

See Venus’ climate I: How scientists know Venus’ surface is unusually hot, for starters.

The rest of your argument proceeds from two faulty premises. Read the above two references then rephrase, please.

Rascal 02-01-2013 07:23 PM

I can't help but think that, if we were back in the middle ages, mhgaffney would be considered a witch and burned. Assuming the village didn't try the floating test instead.

Rohirrim 02-01-2013 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fedaykin (Post 3791754)
~41million miles actually, yet the sentiment is correct.


Average surface temperature of Earth if it had no atmosphere: -5F
Average surface temperature of Venus if it had no atmosphere: +150F

If you'd like to see the math, I'll show it.

And of course, that's average. Earth surface temperature temperature can vary by almost over 260F (coldest temp recorded: -128.6F in Antarctica, hottest: 134F in death valley).

The average surface temp of earth is actually ~60F, which tells you how much influence the greenhouse effect has.

I read that, due to the elliptical orbits, Venus can be anywhere from 24 million miles, to 162 million miles from Earth. Since I'm not a scientist... ???

Fedaykin 02-01-2013 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rohirrim (Post 3791801)
I read that, due to the elliptical orbits, Venus can be anywhere from 24 million miles, to 162 million miles from Earth. Since I'm not a scientist... ???

Oh sure, Earth and Venus could be 162m miles apart, when say they are on opposite sides of the sun, but as far as average distance from the sun, Earth is about 41 million km further from the sun.

Of course, the ****ing hilarious part is that gaff-o seems to think atmospheric temperature causes vulcanism.

Hilarious!

You can't just make that kind of idiotic **** up.

mhgaffney 02-02-2013 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rohirrim (Post 3791801)
I read that, due to the elliptical orbits, Venus can be anywhere from 24 million miles, to 162 million miles from Earth. Since I'm not a scientist... ???

Yes but the key number is the relative distance from the sun. The two planets are not that different.

mhgaffney 02-02-2013 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fedaykin (Post 3791808)
Oh sure, Earth and Venus could be 162m miles apart, when say they are on opposite sides of the sun, but as far as average distance from the sun, Earth is about 41 million km further from the sun.

Of course, the ****ing hilarious part is that gaff-o seems to think atmospheric temperature causes vulcanism.

Hilarious!

You can't just make that kind of idiotic **** up.

You are not paying attention. I never said greenhouse warming caused vulcanism. This is W*gs' view. I am attacking it.

mhgaffney 02-02-2013 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fedaykin (Post 3791765)
You always come up with some funny head scratchers. Why on Venus (ha!) are you stuck on volcanic activity at the poles?



No, it doesn't. The solar wind is not electrically charged. We've measured it, directly. The claim that it is simply does not fit the evidence.

You are not hearing me. I never mentioned the solar wind.

What I'm saying is that electrical currents (electrons) can and do flow from the sun to the planets -- and that this is the source of the electricity in lightning.

In other words, much of the sun's output is electrical -- in addition to visible light, x-rays etc

With regard to earth -- the electricity collects in the ionosphere -- then some of it works its way down through the atmosphere by a process that is not yet understood. We see it in the form of lightning.

These electrical currents could be measured if you placed your equipment properly. In short -- the idea could be tested.

I'm still waiting for you or someone to explain the source of the electricity in lightning. Now that the static charging model is dead -- there is no model.

MHG

W*GS 02-02-2013 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhgaffney (Post 3791951)
You are not paying attention. I never said greenhouse warming caused vulcanism. This is W*gs' view. I am attacking it.

I never said the GHG warming on Venus "caused" its volcanic activity. Show me where I did.

Also, you need to show that Venus is extraordinarily volcanic. You have not.

mhgaffney 02-02-2013 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W*GS (Post 3791969)
I never said the GHG warming on Venus "caused" its volcanic activity. Show me where I did.

Also, you need to show that Venus is extraordinarily volcanic. You have not.

So how do you explain the vulcanism over the entire surface of Venus?

W*GS 02-02-2013 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhgaffney (Post 3792010)
So how do you explain the vulcanism over the entire surface of Venus?

Didja go to the link I provided regarding volcanoes and plate tectonics on Venus?

Of course not.

Quote:

We review recent developments in the study of volcanism and tectonics on Venus. Venus's crust is basaltic, dry, and probably about 30 km thick. The mantle convects, giving rise to plumes, and has a similar composition and mean temperature (1300°C), but a higher viscosity (1020 Pa s), than that of the Earth. Inferred melt generation rates constrain the lithospheric thickness to between 80 and 200 km. The elastic thickness of the lithosphere is about 30 km on average. The present-day lack of plate tectonics may be due to strong faults and the high viscosity of the mantle. Most of the differences between Earth and Venus processes can be explained by the absence of water.
Venus underwent a global resurfacing event 300–600 Ma ago, the cause and nature of which remains uncertain. The present-day surface heat flux on Venus is about half the likely radiogenic heat generation rate, which suggests that Venus has been heating up since the resurfacing event.
You can't even get the science right, dork.


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