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-   -   How to get seperation and "beat" Champ Bailey (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=109864)

Taco John 01-14-2013 11:26 PM

How to get seperation and "beat" Champ Bailey
 
I can't get this to loop, so I'm not embedding it... You can reload the page here to see the gif. Basically, Smith pushed off - big time.

http://i.imgur.com/d2pkR.gif

Taco John 01-14-2013 11:31 PM

Bottom line for me - there were a lot of non-calls in this game, and that's simply because these refs were going to "let the players play." That means the most aggressive team was going to win. And they did.

SonOfLe-loLang 01-15-2013 12:12 AM

You can continue to look for some over arching narrative to why we lost, but it's a number of random things, a huge fluke, and bad luck

UberBroncoMan 01-15-2013 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taco John (Post 3781910)
Bottom line for me - there were a lot of non-calls in this game, and that's simply because these refs were going to "let the players play." That means the most aggressive team was going to win. And they did.

That may be...but then I don't understand the multitude of holding calls we obtained over them.

Mogulseeker 01-15-2013 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UberBroncoMan (Post 3781926)
That may be...but then I don't understand the multitude of holding calls we obtained over them.

This. Von was getting mauled.

misturanderson 01-15-2013 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taco John (Post 3781910)
Bottom line for me - there were a lot of non-calls in this game, and that's simply because these refs were going to "let the players play." That means the most aggressive team was going to win. And they did.

The problem was that they only let the ravens' players play. There were multiple very questionable calls against the Broncos for pass interference and offensive holding and multiple very questionable no-calls in the ravens' favor for the same things.

I guess there were 2-3 questionable penalties against the ravens, but some of them seemed to be make-up calls for things that went against the Broncos a couple plays prior. I don't remember any being as egregiously wrong as the Kuper hold or the Champ PI either.

The fact that I (and several people in the gameday thread) was seriously worried that the Stokely catch would be overturned is evidence to how lopsided the officiating was. Just the fact that they sent Stokely's catch to replay was ridiculous, especially when they blew the next play dead 2 seconds after the snap.

Fedaykin 01-15-2013 03:37 AM

Bottom line: the Ravens were here to win, and didn't mind playing dirty to get there. Illegal kicking practice, dirty play in the trenches (illegal use of hands rampantly), tripping, pushing off, etc.

Bought off or not, the refs let it happen.

TheReverend 01-15-2013 04:58 AM

That's not a big time push-off, bud. Things like that happen on almost every play. Champ's one of my favorite Broncos all-time, but it is what it is... and it is a **** performance.

GreatBronco16 01-15-2013 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheReverend (Post 3781947)
That's not a big time push-off, bud. Things like that happen on almost every play. Champ's one of my favorite Broncos all-time, but it is what it is... and it is a **** performance.

I agree. Champ just could not keep up with the much faster WR. He had his way with Champ all night long.

WolfpackGuy 01-15-2013 05:26 AM

It looked like he was expecting safety help on the first TD and the next long pass that was overthrown which also would've been a TD.

The second TD before the half was a good underthrow and catch, but does anyone yell "Ball!" when the ball's in the air?

I know it's hard chasing a guy all over the field, but I've seen Bailey have trouble from time to time being aware of the ball coming.

elsid13 01-15-2013 05:32 AM

Champ always seem to have problem with select speed WR. When he was with the Redskins Amani Toomer, Champ would give up big plays all the time and remember Chad Johnson used to do the same thing to him, too. Fortunately the speed WR with enough techinque to break Champ's pressing skills are rare in the league.

CEH 01-15-2013 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taco John (Post 3781909)
I can't get this to loop, so I'm not embedding it... You can reload the page here to see the gif. Basically, Smith pushed off - big time.

http://i.imgur.com/d2pkR.gif

I want to see the beginning of the play. My bet is Champ did not get his hands on Smith early on and a top 3 speed WR ran right by him several times

socalorado 01-15-2013 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheReverend (Post 3781947)
That's not a big time push-off, bud. Things like that happen on almost every play. Champ's one of my favorite Broncos all-time, but it is what it is... and it is a **** performance.

Yes. Champ was simply torched. It is what it is.
Jeez, guys. I love Champ as much as the next guy but,
deal with it. Accept it. Hes lost a step.
That doesnt mean hes not good.

TonyR 01-15-2013 05:56 AM

To make myself feel better about champ I'm sticking with the completely speculative theory I've been floating that Champ either had the flu or was recovering from it so wasn't at full strength. I mean, it's possible, right?

TonyR 01-15-2013 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by socalorado (Post 3781964)
Yes. Champ was simply torched. It is what it is.
Jeez, guys. I love Champ as much as the next guy but,
deal with it. Accept it. Hes lost a step.
That doesnt mean hes not good.

My problem with it is that he was so good all year, and very good in the first game against the Ravens. Why the bad game in this big spot? While on the other side we killed their DBs in the first game and couldn't separate in this one. Remember how Decker abused that guy in the regular season game against them? And then nothing doing this time around. The whole thing is just weird, and makes one wonder if something was up with Manning or perhaps maybe the cold was really bothering him.

TheReverend 01-15-2013 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyR (Post 3781967)
My problem with it is that he was so good all year, and very good in the first game against the Ravens. Why the bad game in this big spot? While on the other side we killed their DBs in the first game and couldn't separate in this one. Remember how Decker abused that guy in the regular season game against them? And then nothing doing this time around. The whole thing is just weird, and makes one wonder if something was up with Manning or perhaps maybe the cold was really bothering him.

Quick, name three big plays.

Bailey got both pro-bowl and all-pro honors on name recognition. Love him to death, but it's two deep safety time with him.

TonyR 01-15-2013 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheReverend (Post 3781982)
Quick, name three big plays.

Bailey got both pro-bowl and all-pro honors on name recognition. Love him to death, but it's two deep safety time with him.

I hear ya, but I guess my point is that he did a pretty good job limiting his man all year. On the whole he played very well this year, and per PFF put up his worst performance of the year in this game vs. his best game of the year against Baltimore in the regular season game.

Quote:

On the evidence of a full season of play, Bailey had gone one-on-one with the best receiver of nearly every team Denver had faced. And, until Saturday it had worked every time. Bailey had a superb season. We voted him our 2nd Team All-Pro corner (an honor that was replicated in the AP All-Pro team released on Saturday) because he stood out on tape and this was reflected in the numbers too.

In terms of giving up first downs/touchdowns per coverage snap he was ranked fourth overall among corners, and of those above him, no one was given the same coverage responsibilities he had. On balls that traveled over 20 yards in the air he allowed only three to be completed all year, with none of these going for touchdowns. Covering the likes of Vincent Jackson, Andre Johnson, A.J. Green, Roddy White and Brandon Lloyd, Bailey gave up only 17 completions of more than 10 yards and a single touchdown all year.
(bolding mine) http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl...index.html#all

LRtagger 01-15-2013 06:26 AM

It was a double move but I'm pretty sure he didnt push off

socalorado 01-15-2013 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheReverend (Post 3781982)
Quick, name three big plays.

Bailey got both pro-bowl and all-pro honors on name recognition. Love him to death, but it's two deep safety time with him.

I think it might be a tad early. There not ready to deal with the reality of the situation with Champ yet. This loss is clearly still in its early stages with alot of posters and i am not sure they can take the realization that its time for Champ to go to FS, and draft his replacement.
2 deep safety time. I like the hybrid Charles Woodson role for Champ myself.

ColoradoDarin 01-15-2013 06:28 AM

Brushing off against Bailey's hand checking isn't pushing off.

ColoradoDarin 01-15-2013 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by socalorado (Post 3781990)
I think it might be a tad early. There not ready to deal with the reality of the situation with Champ yet. This loss is clearly still in its early stages with alot of posters and i am not sure they can take the realization that its time for Champ to go to FS, and draft his replacement.
2 deep safety time. I like the hybrid Charles Woodson role for Champ myself.

I don't think Champ needs to be moved just yet, but he can't be left on an island any more and need safety help over the top.

TheReverend 01-15-2013 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyR (Post 3781986)
I hear ya, but I guess my point is that he did a pretty good job limiting his man all year. On the whole he played very well this year, and per PFF put up his worst performance of the year in this game vs. his best game of the year against Baltimore in the regular season game.

Holliday and Woodyard are like the only guys that DIDN'T put up their worst performance of the year.

PS. PFF is nothing shy of horrendous with "gray area" determinations. They need to stick to black and white facts where they're an excellent resource.

LRtagger 01-15-2013 06:34 AM

The problem with that play is it was a direct result of the Tony Carter DPI which I think was ticky tack

TheReverend 01-15-2013 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by socalorado (Post 3781990)
I think it might be a tad early. There not ready to deal with the reality of the situation with Champ yet. This loss is clearly still in its early stages with alot of posters and i am not sure they can take the realization that its time for Champ to go to FS, and draft his replacement.
2 deep safety time. I like the hybrid Charles Woodson role for Champ myself.

Whoa whoa whoa, I wasn't saying move him to safety. I'm saying we need to play two deep safeties on the back end to give him and the rest of our underneath coverage more help over the top.

socalorado 01-15-2013 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyR (Post 3781986)
I hear ya, but I guess my point is that he did a pretty good job limiting his man all year. On the whole he played very well this year, and per PFF put up his worst performance of the year in this game vs. his best game of the year against Baltimore in the regular season game.

(bolding mine) http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl...index.html#all

Tony, you do know that the BALT game earlier in the year was without many of there best players right?
Many of their players were also injured too.
BALT revamped O-line on Sat simply shut down DEN pass rush and because of this, Champ was torched all day. Flacco actually picked on Champ and really stayed away from Harris on bigger plays. Harris is younger and faster than Champ. Flacco wanted nothing to do with him.

The cheesy article by King can simply be reduced to this.
When DEN has its monster pass rush going, Champ looks great. When DEN doesnt have its monster pass rush going, Champ looks ordinary, and is
susceptible to being burned.

Now one might say that this is true of any CB, but it isnt. Revis doesnt need a pass rush. Champ WAS at one time the same calibur of player.
Not anymore. I love him as much as the next guy, but hes a liability against the opposing teams best WR.


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