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View Full Version : offensive strategy seems flawed to me


Gort
09-13-2011, 11:03 AM
Tebow haters go away now, you won't like this thread...

...ok, are they gone?

good.

now we can have an honest discussion about something that's been bothering me for awhile but didn't really crystalize in my head until last night's debacle.

Elway and the media and all the pundits say Tebow is not ready to be a starting QB simply because he hasn't mastered the 3-step, 5-step, and 7-step drops. apparently, you can't play in the NFL unless you're a pocket passer, just like everybody else. other teams are allowed to be exceptions to this rule, but apparently not Denver.

so my rebuttal has always been, why don't we change the offense to suit Tebow's strengths? put him in the shotgun and let's see what we can do. apparently, that argument is considered dumb by all the "experts". of course, Orton plays from the shotgun in our offense from time to time, so i don't understand why it's ok for him, but not Tebow. anyway, that was an argument for another day...

then, last night, while bemoaning our lack of home field advantage over the past few years, it occurred to me that what this team really needs to do is heighten this advantage. how do you do that? by running a no-huddle shotgun offense in the hurry up. even if the opposing defense is allowed time to substitute, by the 4th quarter they should be gassed. but we don't. and we won't. and i really don't understand why. i know we have our own conditioning issues (which need to be fixed because i'm tired of seeing Broncos players gassed during home games), but if the elevation at Mile High gives us a physiological advantage in 8 games out of 16, we're fools for not trying to take advantage of it. we're a rebuilding team. we need every edge we can get. once we recognize this, then the arguments against Tebow go away.

however, even if Tebow wasn't on the roster, we should still be running a hurry up no-huddle offense here like the old Bills teams used to run. by the 2nd half, if our guys are in good condition, we should have a considerable advantage against every team who comes to play us here.

so can somebody tell me a good reason why we are not doing this? i know it's not a system that Fox knows, or McD knew, or Shanny wanted to play, but it is a system almost tailor made for a franchise like ours.

Pony Boy
09-13-2011, 11:18 AM
It looked like the Raiders secretly taped our closed practice before the game

uplink
09-13-2011, 11:21 AM
I think if Tebow can only play out of the gun, teams would have a better idea how to prep. for the broncos. With someone like Brady you don't know if he will come from under center or out of the gun. Next week the Pats may not play the hurry up offense at all.

Gort
09-13-2011, 11:25 AM
I think if Tebow can only play out of the gun, teams would have a better idea how to prep. for the broncos. With someone like Brady you don't know if he will come from under center or out of the gun. Next week the Pats may not play the hurry up offense at all.

we should run a no-huddle hurry-up offense at home (and maybe also on the road) no matter who our QB is just to try and take advantage of our elevation, but we don't. that's what seems flawed to me.

WolfpackGuy
09-13-2011, 11:26 AM
No huddle?

They gotta pick up a damn third down and keep the chains moving for that to possibly work!

DrFate
09-13-2011, 11:27 AM
What I found curious was how many times Orton took snaps out of the shotgun last night. I didn't count, but it seemed like more than a few. Half? 40%?

He's supposed to be this awesome 3/5 step drop guy and Tebow can ONLY play from the gun - maybe they were calling plays for the wrong guy?

Gort
09-13-2011, 11:29 AM
No huddle?

They gotta pick up a damn third down and keep the chains moving for that to possibly work!

that's true. i just don't understand why we don't try and run the game at a high tempo to wear out the other team. remember 20+ years ago and the LMU basketball team that used to play a really fast tempo game? by the end of the game, the other team was so tired that LMU would pull away from them. the LMU players would train on cardio all year to run that cheme, knowing that every team they faced, no matter how much more talent they had, would wear down eventually.

kappys
09-13-2011, 11:31 AM
It's damn near impossible to have a running game if you're primary offense is out of the gun.

That said we have no running game with the QB undercenter, Knowgain is only decent when he can catch and run which can be accomplished out of the gun, McGahee is pretty good for that too. Putting in Tebow and increasing the use of shotgun offense might give us our best chance to win now.

bendog
09-13-2011, 01:13 PM
Tebow haters go away now, you won't like this thread...

...ok, are they gone?

good.

now we can have an honest discussion about something that's been bothering me for awhile but didn't really crystalize in my head until last night's debacle.

Elway and the media and all the pundits say Tebow is not ready to be a starting QB simply because he hasn't mastered the 3-step, 5-step, and 7-step drops. apparently, you can't play in the NFL unless you're a pocket passer, just like everybody else. other teams are allowed to be exceptions to this rule, but apparently not Denver.

so my rebuttal has always been, why don't we change the offense to suit Tebow's strengths? put him in the shotgun and let's see what we can do. apparently, that argument is considered dumb by all the "experts". of course, Orton plays from the shotgun in our offense from time to time, so i don't understand why it's ok for him, but not Tebow. anyway, that was an argument for another day...

then, last night, while bemoaning our lack of home field advantage over the past few years, it occurred to me that what this team really needs to do is heighten this advantage. how do you do that? by running a no-huddle shotgun offense in the hurry up. even if the opposing defense is allowed time to substitute, by the 4th quarter they should be gassed. but we don't. and we won't. and i really don't understand why. i know we have our own conditioning issues (which need to be fixed because i'm tired of seeing Broncos players gassed during home games), but if the elevation at Mile High gives us a physiological advantage in 8 games out of 16, we're fools for not trying to take advantage of it. we're a rebuilding team. we need every edge we can get. once we recognize this, then the arguments against Tebow go away.

however, even if Tebow wasn't on the roster, we should still be running a hurry up no-huddle offense here like the old Bills teams used to run. by the 2nd half, if our guys are in good condition, we should have a considerable advantage against every team who comes to play us here.

so can somebody tell me a good reason why we are not doing this? i know it's not a system that Fox knows, or McD knew, or Shanny wanted to play, but it is a system almost tailor made for a franchise like ours.

who are these "other" teams?

TonyR
09-13-2011, 01:21 PM
What I found curious was how many times Orton took snaps out of the shotgun last night.

Probably at least partly due to being in 3rd and long so often.

orng&blu
09-13-2011, 01:28 PM
How about they clean up all of the UGLY flaws first? Such as not getting so many holding calls, hanging onto the ball.... among many others. This team must polish up many of the basics LONG before anybody can start talking about intricate strategy to suit one QB or the altitude.

Dedhed
09-13-2011, 01:29 PM
It's damn near impossible to have a running game if you're primary offense is out of the gun.

That said we have no running game with the QB undercenter, Knowgain is only decent when he can catch and run which can be accomplished out of the gun, McGahee is pretty good for that too. Putting in Tebow and increasing the use of shotgun offense might give us our best chance to win now.

Facing an inordinate number of 8 man fronts makes it very difficult to run. That won't change with Orton as the QB.

Starting Tebow and just letting him operate primarily from the shotgun would absolutely give us a better chance to win now.

TonyR
09-13-2011, 01:36 PM
Facing an inordinate number of 8 man fronts makes it very difficult to run. That won't change with Orton as the QB.


In Tebow's 3 starts at the end of last season our RB's went a combined 64-179. Granted Tebow provided a lot of rushing yards, which is a positive that has to be considered, but our RB's didn't fare very well with a QB other than Orton. You just can't wish away the fact that our O-line SUCKS!

DBroncos4life
09-13-2011, 01:37 PM
I wish we would bring back the run and shoot O. I think Tebow would fair well in that type of system.

DrFate
09-13-2011, 01:39 PM
Probably at least partly due to being in 3rd and long so often.

That's probably fair - I thought I saw a stat where the average 'to go' distance was 10.7 yards for the Broncos on 3rd down last night? Did I see that graphic or was I sleep deprived?

orng&blu
09-13-2011, 01:43 PM
I wish we would bring back the run and shoot O. I think Tebow would fair well in that type of system.

"Bring back" the run and shoot? Since when did the Broncos EVER have the "run and shoot" offense?

Gort
09-13-2011, 02:00 PM
who are these "other" teams?

other teams are the teams that don't live and train at 5280 above sea level.

bendog
09-13-2011, 02:02 PM
Really? Other teams exclusively use the shotgun and have a qb make no more than two reads, and then run the rock? Dog gone it. and here I've been wasting sundays watching Sean Payton, Mike McCarthy and the dick head in Chi.

WolfpackGuy
09-13-2011, 02:04 PM
I ran some Run n Shoot plays with Elway all the time on Tecmo Super Bowl.

It was glorious.

Gort
09-13-2011, 02:05 PM
"Bring back" the run and shoot? Since when did the Broncos EVER have the "run and shoot" offense?

i think he means bring it back from obscurity.

i still think this franchise is missing out on one of its inherent home field advantages... the elevation. we should be running high tempo, no-huddle offensive schemes because the opposing teams coming into Denver would have a difficult time staying fresh against that. i don't care about substitutions... i know the NFL has prevented that benefit through rule changes, but still, a fit and well-conditioned Broncos offense running a no huddle should have a huge advantage in the 4th quarter.

this comes up in other sports like rugby and soccer where one team starts to have problems late in games, usually due to inferior conditioning leaving their side tired against a stronger opponent.

Gort
09-13-2011, 02:06 PM
Really? Other teams exclusively use the shotgun and have a qb make no more than two reads, and then run the rock? Dog gone it. and here I've been wasting sundays watching Sean Payton, Mike McCarthy and the dick head in Chi.

who are you replying to?

Doggcow
09-13-2011, 02:08 PM
Anyone notice we only played 3 downs last night?

Just throw out every first down play. I don't think we had a single second and short the whole ****ing game.

Agamemnon
09-13-2011, 03:49 PM
What they are doing with Cam Newton in Carolina is what we should be doing with Tebow. Unfortunately we have a bunch of idiots and noobs running this team.

DB-Freak
09-13-2011, 04:07 PM
We gotta go Nintendo as Old man Mock used to say.

This team absolutely can not run for its life.

Spread the **** out.

DBroncos4life
09-13-2011, 05:56 PM
"Bring back" the run and shoot? Since when did the Broncos EVER have the "run and shoot" offense?

No team runs the run and and shoot so we would be "brining it back".

DENVERDUI55
09-13-2011, 06:33 PM
Yeah it's flawed to keep pounding glass jaw SLOWshon up the gut for 1 yard and a cloud of dust. He is a very very very very average RB.

SoCalBronco
09-14-2011, 12:50 AM
I wish we would bring back the run and shoot O. I think Tebow would fair well in that type of system.

The Run and Shoot offense, at least in its early 90s form is simply a relic at this point. It also would not suit Tebow very well. All the classic Run and Shoot plays (Go, Choice, Switch, Slide, Streak etc.) are premised on adjustable routes post-snap. It involves alot of reading and reacting on the fly and requires very quick decisions in the passing game and for everyone to be seeing the same thing. While a talented player, making very advanced reads in the passing game is not Tebow's game. The Run and Shoot pass protection scheme is also dated, Bob Davie at Texas A&M was the first to take it apart and others followed suit thereafter. Another problem with the Run and Shoot is Mouse Davis theorized that everything the defense can possibly do must fit into just a few categories: 2 Deep, 3 Deep, Man or Blitz. Everything was designed based on this assumption. That might have been fine for the Houston Gamblers of the USFL in the early 80s when defenses were not particularly sophisticated, but these days there are hosts and hosts of hybrid coverages. This is one reason why June Jones and Dan Morrison at Hawaii and now SMU have incorporated alot more non-read routes into their Shotgun offense. While he still has bits and pieces of the old Run and Shoot in his offense (like the classic Go route), a decent number of his bread and butter stuff is non-read routes. He's also changed the pass protection considerably. Also, the classic use of motion on every play by Run and Shoot teams to determine post-snap coverage is also dated. In this scheme, it was originally thought that if the LB moved with the slot back it was man to man, if the defenders simply bumped across, it was zone and if a safety moved with the slot back, it was a blitz. Again, over time, this became inaccurate.
Jones abandoned alot of this stuff because it wasn't working anymore. He still uses largely the same two Run and Shoot formations, but the offense itself has had to radically modified over time to survive. We can't simply dust off the old playbook and put it in, now.