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TheDave
09-13-2011, 08:37 AM
Soo...

Just as an option to the QB focused threads...

Everyone who watched last nights game saw both the offensive and defensive lines physically manhandled at the POA. The run game was an absolute joke... no push at all... all night long.

The D-Line wasn't much better. Linemen got to the second level all night long, and as a result we had a mini repeat of last October.

So are we that bad or are the OAK lines that good?

Beyond playing tebow, how do we fix this for the next 15 games?

alkemical
09-13-2011, 08:38 AM
Soo...

Just as an option to the QB focuse threads...

Everyone who watched last nights game saw both the offensive and defensive lines physically manhandled at the POA. The run game was an absolute joke... no push at all... all night long.

The D-Line wasn't much better. Linemen got to the second level all night long, and as a result we had a mini repeat of last October.

So are we that bad or are OAK lines that good?

Beyond playing tebow, how do we fix this for the next 15 games?



Do more heroine.

TheDave
09-13-2011, 08:39 AM
Do more heroine.

Doing more heroine = 2009 & 2010 seasons...

Been there done that ;D

Kaylore
09-13-2011, 08:40 AM
We'll need a few more games to see. The Raiders lines are better than ours. They were very good last year. It might be we are really horrible. It might be that we're average and teams stack the box against Orton and blitz him and it makes us look worse than it is.

I'll tell you this, though. When Tebow played in Oakland, we looked a lot better. The DE's had to play contain and the safeties were backing off.

alkemical
09-13-2011, 08:40 AM
Doing more heroine = 2009 & 2010 seasons...

Been there done that ;D

Hippie-flip (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.urbandictionary.com%2Fdefine. php%3Fterm%3Dhippie%2520flip&rct=j&q=hippie%20flip&ei=bXlvTo-CHML40gHPofXxCQ&usg=AFQjCNGrxnEI0NPYCUtI6cDVMIE86CfIlA&sig2=QXO4m4o2uE3wdCetBtYq4w&cad=rja)

Mountain Bronco
09-13-2011, 08:43 AM
Raiders lines are good. I thought our Dline played hard, but are simply over matched. Our linebackers seem to crash into piles instead of picking their way through piles and trying to disengage. In fact the smallest of them all did the best at getting off blocks. Now that is sad.

Our Oline got owned tonight. I don't think we are very good up the middle (willing to give Franklin some time to improve as this was his first game.

Yes, the trenches are as big of a problem as the QB play.

PRBronco
09-13-2011, 08:45 AM
Soo...

Just as an option to the QB focused threads...

Everyone who watched last nights game saw both the offensive and defensive lines physically manhandled at the POA. The run game was an absolute joke... no push at all... all night long.

The D-Line wasn't much better. Linemen got to the second level all night long, and as a result we had a mini repeat of last October.

So are we that bad or are the OAK lines that good?

Beyond playing tebow, how do we fix this for the next 15 games?

This team has been losing in the trenches since Shanny was here unfortunately. Although we should give the Raiders D line some credit, they're a good group.

Actually on the subject of the trenches: I know he wasn't a world beater but I'm glad we got Bunkley, he's a lot better than most of the **** we've had at DT over the past decade.

TheDave
09-13-2011, 08:52 AM
We'll need a few more games to see. The Raiders lines are better than ours. They were very good last year. It might be we are really horrible. It might be that we're average and teams stack the box against Orton and blitz him and it makes us look worse than it is.

I'll tell you this, though. When Tebow played in Oakland, we looked a lot better. The DE's had to play contain and the safeties were backing off.

Absolutely, nothing is written in stone. There were missed assignments all over the place. Things like that can and will be cleaned up.

My fear was the relatively consistent domination at the POA. Play after play we had individuals getting dominated physically. That's what scares me the most.

TheDave
09-13-2011, 08:55 AM
This team has been losing in the trenches since Shanny was here unfortunately. Although we should give the Raiders D line some credit, they're a good group.

Actually on the subject of the trenches: I know he wasn't a world beater but I'm glad we got Bunkley, he's a lot better than most of the **** we've had at DT over the past decade.

Bunkley was the best of the worse last night. Saw him getting double teamed time and again.

DarkHorse
09-13-2011, 08:57 AM
Absolutely, nothing is written in stone. There were missed assignments all over the place. Things like that can and will be cleaned up.

My fear was the relatively consistent domination at the POA. Play after play we had individuals getting dominated physically. That's what scares me the most.

And that's the point when leaders lead or at least make a feeble attempt to lead. Neither of which our 'leader' was capable of even trying.

TheReverend
09-13-2011, 09:04 AM
Linemen got to the second level all day long because the focus in Denver is to get into the backfield to try and disrupt instead of stopping the ****ing play.

TheReverend
09-13-2011, 09:05 AM
Bunkley was the best of the worse last night. Saw him getting double teamed time and again.

Agree. Vickerson (penalty aside) was far from bad as well.

Ayers remains a disappointment.

TheDave
09-13-2011, 09:11 AM
Agree. Vickerson (penalty aside) was far from bad as well.

Ayers remains a disappointment.

Not to troll my own thread... BUT...

Duh, he is a member of the legendary 2009 draft class. You know the class that should be the cornerstone of our young upcoming roster.

Knowshon Moreno
Robert Ayers
Alphonso Smith
Darcel McBath
Richard Quinn
David Bruton
Seth Olson
Kenny McKinley
Tom Brandstater
Blake Schlueter

Seriously we got 10 out of the 35 players McD had ranked... how could that not be a win. Hilarious!

TheReverend
09-13-2011, 09:13 AM
^ goddamn that looks even worse every week

Traveler
09-13-2011, 09:14 AM
My fear was the relatively consistent domination at the POA. Play after play we had individuals getting dominated physically. That's what scares me the most.

If our future opponents are smart and have players physically similar to OAK, the Raiders laid out the blueprint for defeating us.

As you've sadi numerous times, we just don't have the type of physically talented players to match up teams like OAK, BAL, PIT.

We don't get better until we acquire enough players that can dominate at the POA. We currently have only two of five need players on the O-Line and none on the D-Line except for Dumervil and possibly Bunkley.

This rebuild is gonna take some time.

TheDave
09-13-2011, 09:15 AM
^ goddamn that looks even worse every week

Wait until next season when Ayers is the only player left from that class

TheChamp24
09-13-2011, 09:24 AM
Not to troll my own thread... BUT...

Duh, he is a member of the legendary 2009 draft class. You know the class that should be the cornerstone of our young upcoming roster.

Knowshon Moreno
Robert Ayers
Alphonso Smith
Darcel McBath
Richard Quinn
David Bruton
Seth Olson
Kenny McKinley
Tom Brandstater
Blake Schlueter

Seriously we got 10 out of the 35 players McD had ranked... how could that not be a win. Hilarious!

At least Bruton did something and broke up what would've been a TD in the 2nd quarter.

I really hope we won't regret taking Miller ahead of Dareus.

TheReverend
09-13-2011, 09:26 AM
Wait until next season when Ayers is the only player left from that class

Dont forget to do a:

-Cutler
+Orton

To that off-season equation.

Popps
09-13-2011, 09:35 AM
Soo...

Just as an option to the QB focused threads...



You're fighting an uphill battle here, brother.

But, you're also correct. We haven't been able to run the ball in short yardage situations when we've NEEDED to for years, and I don't just mean a couple years.

We've been getting gashed on the D-line for years.

Certainly, the (current and) past 3 coaching staffs can take part-blame for ignoring the interior D-line in drafts, and in FA.

Last night was a continuation of last year. Orton is continually put in throw-only, and 3rd and long situations because we simply can't open running lanes on early downs. So, when Orton can't turn into John Elway... people call for his head. Easy enough to understand, but it does miss the larger picture.

We've got to invest massive resources in these lines. Our interior offensive line is simply not adequate for NFL football. This is beyond obvious, at this point. Franklin was a nice addition, imo. But, we've got a ton of work to do.

This won't be fixed this season. The best we can hope for is that a healthy Thomas/Warren eventually adds some solidity to the inside. As for the O-line, Franklin should improve as the season goes on. But, I don't know what to say about the rest of the guys. But, we've got to figure out a way to employ some early-down running plays that give our offense a chance to convert some shorter 3rd downs and keep some drives alive.

TheReverend
09-13-2011, 09:38 AM
You're fighting an uphill battle here, brother.

But, you're also correct. We haven't been able to run the ball in short yardage situations when we've NEEDED to for years, and I don't just mean a couple years.

We've been getting gashed on the D-line for years.

Certainly, the (current and) past 3 coaching staffs can take part-blame for ignoring the interior D-line in drafts, and in FA.

Last night was a continuation of last year. Orton is continually put in throw-only, and 3rd and long situations because we simply can't open running lanes on early downs. So, when Orton can't turn into John Elway... people call for his head. Easy enough to understand, but it does miss the larger picture.

We've got to invest massive resources in these lines. Our interior offensive line is simply not adequate for NFL football. This is beyond obvious, at this point. Franklin was a nice addition, imo. But, we've got a ton of work to do.

This won't be fixed this season. The best we can hope for is that a healthy Thomas/Warren eventually adds some solidity to the inside. As for the O-line, Franklin should improve as the season goes on. But, I don't know what to say about the rest of the guys. But, we've got to figure out a way to employ some early-down running plays that give our offense a chance to convert some shorter 3rd downs and keep some drives alive.

No, Popps.

When Orton can't turn into Bubby Brister is when people call for his head.

Popps
09-13-2011, 09:38 AM
This team has been losing in the trenches since Shanny was here unfortunately. .

This is the plain truth. I know, because I've been on these boards bitching about this fact, basically since message boards were invented. Ha!

Look at Detroit, look at Oakland... now given, they had a lot of high picks to invest. But, their improvement started by acquiring players in the trenches.

It's boring, but it's true. People can yap about how this is a passing league now, but when it comes down to it... it's still won/lost with the big slobs up front.

Popps
09-13-2011, 09:39 AM
No, Popps.

When Orton can't turn into Bubby Brister is when people call for his head.

Wait, so... you don't like Orton? Let me do a post-search, but I think this is the first time you've mentioned this fascinating fact.

Happen to catch the title of the thread?

I think Dave was hoping people could get off that subject for 30 seconds or so.

BMF Bronco
09-13-2011, 09:40 AM
Agree. Vickerson (penalty aside) was far from bad as well.

Ayers remains a disappointment.

Ugh, that asshat was within arms length of McFadden on his 47 yard tromp and didn't even give the slightest bit of effort to tackle him.

TheReverend
09-13-2011, 09:40 AM
Wait, so... you don't like Orton? Let me do a post-search, but I think this is the first time you've mentioned this fascinating fact.

Happen to catch the title of the thread?

I think Dave was hoping people could get off that subject for 30 seconds or so.

Shame you felt the need to bring it back up then.

alkemical
09-13-2011, 09:42 AM
Bunkley was the best of the worse last night. Saw him getting double teamed time and again.

The injury to Ty Warren really hurts, well that and the lack of talent across the board in key areas.

TheChamp24
09-13-2011, 09:45 AM
We've actually invested quite a bit lately in the OL, some of them aren't working out too well.
Walton, Beadles and Kuper seem to be average. Franklin is a rookie so who knows yet. Clady USED to be All Pro level but now he seems more in the tune of above-average.

Popps
09-13-2011, 09:46 AM
In any case, good thread Dave. I guarantee you Fox is realizing just how bad things are at this point. This will simply take time.

DarkHorse
09-13-2011, 09:49 AM
In any case, good thread Dave. I guarantee you Fox is realizing just how bad things are at this point. This will simply take time.

Real question is - will he make an adjustment before Week 15?

Pony Boy
09-13-2011, 09:51 AM
I thought there was new federal legislation against bullying

TheReverend
09-13-2011, 09:52 AM
Real question is - will he make an adjustment before Week 15?

Studesville is still on the staff.

Just sayin Ha!

Eldorado
09-13-2011, 09:52 AM
At least Bruton did something and broke up what would've been a TD in the 2nd quarter.

I really hope we won't regret taking Miller ahead of Dareus.

Bruton missed the block on the blocked punt. Led to 7 points.

DrFate
09-13-2011, 09:53 AM
Not to troll my own thread... BUT...

Duh, he is a member of the legendary 2009 draft class. You know the class that should be the cornerstone of our young upcoming roster.

Knowshon Moreno
...

I was hoping someone would mention the big game that Moreno had last night, if only to be a non-Orton topic. After getting pummeled by the apologist on what a great offensive juggernaugt he is, I thought it was awesome to see him rack up 57 total yards. And only cost us the #12 overall pick! What value!

Go ahead and schedule the flight to Hawaii Knowshon! And congrats!

Tombstone RJ
09-13-2011, 09:57 AM
the oline is not that bad, it's young and the oldest vet is Kuper I believe. Franklin is another rookie so that is one starting rookie, 2 second year players in Beadles and Walton, and 2 vets in Clady and Kuper and Clady was recovering all last year from knee surgury.

the faiders have a good defensive line and they are a physical team. It's too bad that the Broncos were not prepared for the physical play of the faiders but I think this is something the young guys and Fox is going to learn from and be better prepared come next Sunday.

PRBronco
09-13-2011, 09:58 AM
The injury to Ty Warren really hurts, well that and the lack of talent across the board in key areas.

At least HAM will be back soon, I hear he is quite HAM.

TheReverend
09-13-2011, 10:01 AM
the oline is not that bad, it's young and the oldest vet is Kuper I believe. Franklin is another rookie so that is one starting rookie, 2 second year players in Beadles and Walton, and 2 vets in Clady and Kuper and Clady was recovering all last year from knee surgury.

the faiders have a good defensive line and they are a physical team. It's too bad that the Broncos were not prepared for the physical play of the faiders but I think this is something the young guys and Fox is going to learn from and be better prepared come next Sunday.

Cinci's defensive front 7 is EVERY bit as physical and talented as Oaklands if not more so.

We can be thankful for Rivers' wrist injury at least.

kappys
09-13-2011, 10:11 AM
the oline is not that bad, it's young and the oldest vet is Kuper I believe. Franklin is another rookie so that is one starting rookie, 2 second year players in Beadles and Walton, and 2 vets in Clady and Kuper and Clady was recovering all last year from knee surgury.

the faiders have a good defensive line and they are a physical team. It's too bad that the Broncos were not prepared for the physical play of the faiders but I think this is something the young guys and Fox is going to learn from and be better prepared come next Sunday.

Walton is awful and needs to be replaced, he was arguably the worst starting center last year and hasn't changed my mind on this. I was hoping we would pursue a vet center in the off-season.

I'm not quite ready to pass judgement yet on Beadles. He did reasonably well last year as an RT for a rookie and certainly struggled a bit moving to LG mid-season but I think it a fairly tall order to transition like that as a rookie. No OTA and then a matchup against Seymour in week one - not terribly surprised he struggled.

Beantown Bronco
09-13-2011, 10:14 AM
We've actually invested quite a bit lately in the OL, some of them aren't working out too well.
Walton, Beadles and Kuper seem to be average. Franklin is a rookie so who knows yet. Clady USED to be All Pro level but now he seems more in the tune of above-average.

Ummm, at the end of last year, someone here posted the link to the OLine rankings across the league and two of those bolded names were literally ranked the worst in the league at their position. Based on what I've been reading about last night's game, I can't see how their rankings could change at all, much less cause them to leapfrog half the league to become "average".

Jekyll15Hyde
09-13-2011, 10:27 AM
the oline is not that bad, it's young and the oldest vet is Kuper I believe. Franklin is another rookie so that is one starting rookie, 2 second year players in Beadles and Walton, and 2 vets in Clady and Kuper and Clady was recovering all last year from knee surgury.

the faiders have a good defensive line and they are a physical team. It's too bad that the Broncos were not prepared for the physical play of the faiders but I think this is something the young guys and Fox is going to learn from and be better prepared come next Sunday.

As usual, you dont have a f$%ing clue. At least you are consistent

This o-line is terrible, particularly up the middle. Beadles and Walton are young and also drafted by McD so it is to some degree understandable that they struggle. But Kuper is getting paid big bucks (nearly 5M/yr) and he is treated around here like he is something special. I dont see why and perhaps after last night, others now can too.