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sgbfan
09-12-2011, 11:00 PM
I don't know what to do about Center other than just hope Walton improves, but does anyone else think we might be better off with Beatles at RT and Franklin at LG? Franklin is a big mean MOFO, but can't get out to block the DE. Beatles just can't hold up the block as well from the inside but just might be quick enough for RT position? It might not fix it, but maybe it would help?!

eddie mac
09-12-2011, 11:02 PM
They were all beat like drums tonight, no-one stood out at all and I'm more disappointed with the leaders like Clady and Kuper.

sgbfan
09-12-2011, 11:06 PM
They were all beat like drums tonight, no-one stood out at all and I'm more disappointed with the leaders like Clady and Kuper.

They did. And to think, we used 3 early picks in the last few years...

SoCalBronco
09-12-2011, 11:06 PM
All of them, especially Beadles, had a horrible night against the Oakland front. It was a poor matchup for them, they've got two really good DT's. Seymour tore the line a new one. It will be difficult to fix this in the short term. Clady is still not all the way back yet...not even close. The penalties were especially troubling. There's a ton of undisciplined and confused play there. They got totally bullied by that front, all night long.

Charmin soft.

Popps
09-12-2011, 11:12 PM
People keep telling me it's a passing league, but it sure looks to me like we lose because we can't run the ball, and we can't stop the run.

But, this wasn't going to be fixed in one off-season. Franklin will be a quality addition. But, the interior is all question-marks, imo.

Agamemnon
09-12-2011, 11:15 PM
Not sure they are really as bad as they looked tonight. They looked pretty good in the preseason against opposing starters. If they really are that bad, then we're going to have to start drafting linemen to replace the bums in the middle. Simple as that.

TheReverend
09-12-2011, 11:36 PM
I'm sorry, but if you think RT requires more quickness than LG, you're sorely mistaken...

enjolras
09-13-2011, 12:05 AM
It's a vicious cycle right now. We need a line that can protect our QB who needs a lot of time to be effective, but we need a QB who can back up the defense so that our line can be effective in the run game.

Probably easier to replace one guy than 5.

Bronco Boy
09-13-2011, 12:07 AM
I didn't think Franklin was horrible for his first game. He got beat pretty bad a few times, but I mean so did Clady.

enjolras
09-13-2011, 12:10 AM
I didn't think Franklin was horrible for his first game. He got beat pretty bad a few times, but I mean so did Clady.

As a rookie in his first start, I think he was ok. It's those three interior positions that have me really worried.

24champ
09-13-2011, 12:10 AM
The unit as a whole looked pretty bad tonight.

I thought Beadles (#68) played like dog ****.

LongDongJohnson
09-13-2011, 12:13 AM
We need a better run blocking scheme or something.

Archer81
09-13-2011, 12:13 AM
I think it would help if we had a QB with scrambling ability and actually used offensive plays that gets the QB OUT of the pocket.

Thats my .02 anyway.

:Broncos:

razorwire77
09-13-2011, 12:18 AM
In my opinion, it's a pretty easy fix.

Vote Walton off the island. Find an NFL caliber starting center. The sooner this kid is on the Saskatewan Roughriders, the better.

Kupe and Clady had off nights, but it doesn't help when your QB plays like Kyle Orton did tonight. Both are decent starters at their respective positons

Find a replacement for Beadles. Beadles is a decent G/T utility lineman, but it's time to find that interior lineman mauler.

Franklin will be fine. He got shredded by a decent pass rusher in obvious passing situations. Run blocking, he was ok setting an edge, but either the plays blew up (inside to out), or Moreno flat out sucked, which he missed two obvious decent holes that I saw, including the run, slip and fumble which should have gone for 15.

Agamemnon
09-13-2011, 12:21 AM
In my opinion, it's a pretty easy fix.

Vote Walton off the island. Find an NFL caliber starting center. The sooner this kid is on the Saskatewan Roughriders, the better.

Kupe and Clady had off nights, but it doesn't help when your QB plays like Kyle Orton did tonight. Both are decent starters at their respective positons

Find a replacement for Beadles. Beadles is a decent G/T utility lineman, but it's time to find that interior lineman mauler.

Franklin will be fine. He got shredded by a decent pass rusher in obvious passing situations. Run blocking, he was ok setting an edge, but either the plays blew up (inside to out), or Moreno flat out sucked, which he missed two obvious decent holes that I saw, including the run, slip and fumble which should have gone for 15.

So "easy fix" means drafting two more linemen relatively high and hoping they don't suck as well. Guess all of our problems are an "easy fix" then. ::)

TheReverend
09-13-2011, 12:23 AM
"We will have the most sophisticated running game in the league"
-John Fox

Agamemnon
09-13-2011, 12:25 AM
"We will have the most sophisticated running game in the league"
-John Fox

Hilarious!

razorwire77
09-13-2011, 12:27 AM
So "easy fix" means drafting two more linemen relatively high and hoping they don't suck as well. Guess all of our problems are an "easy fix" then. ::)

Easy fix means pulling your head out and signing a decent center in FA, and then drafting/signing a guard that isn't overpowered consistently at the LOS. Something they could have easily done in the off-season had they spent a bit of money.

Agamemnon
09-13-2011, 12:29 AM
Easy fix means pulling your head out and signing a decent center in FA, and then drafting/signing a guard that isn't overpowered consistently at the LOS. Something they could have easily done in the off-season had they spent a bit of money.

Ah yes. Free agency. How bad teams rebuild...

TheReverend
09-13-2011, 12:31 AM
Ah yes. Free agency. How bad teams rebuild...

There were some bad ass players available this year due to the lockout strife, so I have to say this is unvalid criticism THIS year

Agamemnon
09-13-2011, 12:33 AM
There were some bad ass players available this year due to the lockout strife, so I have to say this is unvalid criticism THIS year

Yes there were. And we probably could've and should've signed a couple, but free agency is never going be the answer when it comes to rebuilding.

TheReverend
09-13-2011, 12:34 AM
Yes there were. And we probably could've and should've signed a couple, but free agency is never going be the answer when it comes to rebuilding.

It is when you can get franchise players in their early-mid 20s...

razorwire77
09-13-2011, 12:34 AM
Ah yes. Free agency. How bad teams rebuild...

Draft bpa and sign veteran FA (especially at C which is the second most difficult position to learn on offense to QB). No team rebuilds exclusively with the draft. They draft potential and cover their ass when potential ****s the bed (J.D. last year and J.D. this year).

Agamemnon
09-13-2011, 12:48 AM
It is when you can get franchise players in their early-mid 20s...

Sure. But this years FA was not in anyway typical. We're talking about how we are going to fix the o-line now, not how we would have fixed it during a unique FA period.

TheReverend
09-13-2011, 12:53 AM
Sure. But this years FA was not in anyway typical. We're talking about how we are going to fix the o-line now, not how we would have fixed it during a unique FA period.

Uh

He specifically referenced this PAST off-season bro.

Agamemnon
09-13-2011, 12:54 AM
Uh

He specifically referenced this PAST off-season bro.

The OP didn't.

TheReverend
09-13-2011, 12:58 AM
The OP didn't.

The OP wasn't who you were replying to.

razorwire77
09-13-2011, 01:00 AM
Down with OPP?

cutthemdown
09-13-2011, 01:00 AM
I actually thought Orton had pretty good time, and that they picked up the blitz pretty good. IMO it wasn't that bad of a performance in the pass blocking. Run blocking looked a lot like last yr, where they are never in synch, don't move anyone off the ball.

But at least we didn't get blown out, Broncos fought hard and it was a sloppy penalty marred game. Whatever they look about how I expected them to. Campbell just doesn't have to throw to beat the Broncos so we can never really prove what a loser he is. He does stink though he is no better then Orton.

Orton will get a few more games but eventually if he keeps doing things like dropping the ball for no reason Fox will get the momentum he needs to try another QB.

razorwire77
09-13-2011, 01:07 AM
Orton is done. Oakland basically produced a cornucopia of ways to render Kyle ineffective. Imagine if they didn't produce 58 penalties for 1098 yards. This is especially true, when you have no consistent threat of a running game. Every DC worth a roadhouse diner ****, is going to scheme Kyle within an inch of his apathetic, 5.5 40 yard life. I'm telling you, that this is only going to get worse the longer he starts.

Agamemnon
09-13-2011, 01:14 AM
Orton is done. Oakland basically produced a cornucopia of ways to render Kyle ineffective. Imagine if they didn't produce 58 penalties for 1098 yards. This is especially true, when you have no consistent threat of a running game. Every DC worth a roadhouse diner ****, is going to scheme Kyle within an inch of his apathetic, 5.5 40 yard life. I'm telling you, that this is only going to get worse the longer he starts.

The ways to stop Orton were already well documented prior to this game. The Raiders simply did what they already knew worked.

Agamemnon
09-13-2011, 01:17 AM
The OP wasn't who you were replying to.

I was replying to his reply to the OP. And it was in regards to how to fix the current o-line going forward.

fontaine
09-13-2011, 01:27 AM
Meh, the OL was okay. Not bad, not great considering the inferior talent we have with Beadles/Walton and a rookie starting.

Orton made more individual mistakes that I counted like dropping the ball, throwing that ugly int, some piss poor throws.

epicSocialism4tw
09-13-2011, 01:36 AM
"We will have the most sophisticated running game in the league"
-John Fox

Oh.

That's bad.

fontaine
09-13-2011, 02:45 AM
But seriously what do people expect?

McDaniels completely tore down a good running game the minute he entered into Dove Valley taking a decade long history of running success and throwing up all over it by inserting guys like Walton, Stanley Daniels, and freakin' Hochstein.

That's not going to be fixed in a strike curtailed off season.

Fox is just picking up the pieces of the mess McDaniels left behind. It's going to take a lot more time.

Bigdawg26
09-13-2011, 06:18 AM
JD Walton was beat like a drum all game long. Kuper had about 80 holding calls because he was getting owned. Bealtes ain't as good as he was told to be. Clady didn't have a bad game, but it wasn't good. Franklin has to get used to the speed of NFL DE's, but he wasn't the weakest link. In their defense, half of those sacks could have been avoided if Kyle Orton has any mobility!

Raider9175
09-13-2011, 06:44 AM
In my opinion, it's a pretty easy fix.



Franklin will be fine. He got shredded by a decent pass rusher in obvious passing situations. Run blocking, he was ok setting an edge, but either the plays blew up (inside .

HOw can you say Franklin was ok in run blocking when you finished with how many yards on the ground again. Everytime Bronco tried to take it outside they lost alot of yards. Reason raiders De( L Houston and matt Shaughnessy are two of the toughest De to run against.)

ColoradoDarin
09-13-2011, 07:35 AM
I keep waiting for the JD that was a mauler in college, he was a pancake machine. Don't know if it was because he lost the offseason. He improve during the year last season, but he regressed last night, I have hope, but it's not as much as before.

pricejj
09-13-2011, 08:03 AM
I have stated all of these things previously, and nothing has changed -

1. Orton will not start after the bye week (week 6) - Unless the Broncos beat Green Bay on the road, or San Diego at home in week 5, we will be at best 2-3 headed into the bye week. Tebow time.


2. McCoy needs to be replaced - He is tying his career to running McDaniel's crappy offense, which doesn't work unless you have Tom Brady.

3. Replace Walton and Beadles - The worst players at their position in the NFL.

4. Move Franklin to LG - Obvious to anyone who was watched any game film on him.

5. Kuper is not the long term answer at RG - Too light (303 lbs.), not powerful enough.

6. Goodbye Xanders - You are a nice guy, but you still seriously over estimate the talent you acquire.

alkemical
09-13-2011, 08:10 AM
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSDqjDDnoQTuwOGJ6y6Zcjl9HTZmUmy2 bDXs2NZdk-vxX9cejXP

DENVERDUI55
09-15-2011, 07:40 PM
This OL in Denver is horrible. What are they thinking marching out Orton behind that pile of doo doo. At least throw Tebow in there he might be able to break an arm tackle or flush the pocket behind all 5 of those revolving doors or charmin.

bowtown
09-15-2011, 07:46 PM
Meh, even during our glory years it always took our Oline a few games to totally gel. Throw in that all of these guys are still young and only had a month of off season with a new oline coach, and I'm willing to let this play out a few more games before I declare them horrible.

Requiem
09-15-2011, 08:05 PM
College football teams would have done the same thing.

Traveler
09-16-2011, 03:25 AM
Not much we can do this season. This line just isn't talented enough to perform well against big, physical defenses like the BAL, PIT, OAK. Although they did battle the best they could on Monday.

As for remedies, we have to get even bigger inside IMO. Bigger doesn't always mean better, but it's harder to rag doll a 330 pound player than the smallish, finesse, 300 lb guys currently on the team.

I'm all for drafting some big bodied maulers like Kelechi Osemele, Mike Ryan, Ken Plue. All in the 330-350 lb range.

Leave Franklin at RT, he's a work in progress and I think he'll adjust to the speed of NFL DE's. He already has the size and mentality wanted for a Fox type offensive lineman.

Beadles is the weak link on the O-Line and must be replaced. Most scouting reports last year say he was drafted way too early. Most had him rated as a 4th rounder.

Walton I still have high hopes for. You can see he has the nasty side you want in most lineman. He just doesn't seem to be able to anchor and frequently gets walked back into the QB. Same with most of our interior line.

Kuper, I'm not sure what happening with him. He gives great effort, but I'm guessing his game is better suited for the ZBS.

This rebuild is gonna take some time. When all is said and done, my guess is the entire interior line will be gone within two years or relegated to backups.

Ugly Duck
09-16-2011, 04:37 AM
Clady is still not all the way back yet...not even close.

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Lolad
09-16-2011, 04:44 AM
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The only thing I see wrong with that play is Moreno going lateral too much when he could have cut inside maybe for no gain or a yard.

Ugly Duck
09-16-2011, 05:03 AM
The only thing I see wrong with that play is Moreno going lateral too much when he could have cut inside maybe for no gain or a yard.

Clady & Jackson both kinda get beat by Kameron Wimbley. Point is, Clady doesn't look like he's quite back yet.

KevinJames
09-16-2011, 05:32 AM
Damn week 1 just 2 weeks ago you guys were talking about how good our o-line was hahaha wtf

lets see if they can bounce back in week 2, Raiders front is huge and hard to deal with.

alkemical
09-16-2011, 06:22 AM
We need a better run blocking scheme or something.

Not just better, but "sophisticated".

TonyR
09-16-2011, 07:19 AM
...we have to get even bigger inside IMO. Bigger doesn't always mean better, but it's harder to rag doll a 330 pound player than the smallish, finesse, 300 lb guys currently on the team.

I agree with you, but also find it interesting that the Philadelphia Eagles are going the opposite direction behing O-line coach Howard Mudd. They're pushing out the bigger guys in favor of smaller, more athletic players. A < 300 pound rookie won the the starting C job. I guess it helps when you have the most mobile QB in the history of the league. Smilarly, our O-line struggles are probably a good argument in favor or starting Tebow...

BroncoInferno
09-16-2011, 07:25 AM
Damn week 1 just 2 weeks ago you guys were talking about how good our o-line was hahaha wtf

lets see if they can bounce back in week 2, Raiders front is huge and hard to deal with.

This is a good point. The starting OL did look pretty solid is the preseason. Perhaps the Raiders were simply a poor matchup for this group. Let's hope so. If not, there isn't really much we can do to improve the situation this season. None of our backup lineman would probably make another NFL roster.

~Crash~
09-16-2011, 07:48 AM
I to was ready to give up way to early on these guys. This is a harder concepts mags is after with these guys . this will be a work in progress . sometimes you need to be patient. we are all mad as hell after losing to the raiders. I could see around week 8 as a point to judge. lets all hope they look like a quality OL by then.

PRBronco
09-16-2011, 08:30 AM
This is a good point. The starting OL did look pretty solid is the preseason. Perhaps the Raiders were simply a poor matchup for this group. Let's hope so. If not, there isn't really much we can do to improve the situation this season. None of our backup lineman would probably make a CFL roster.

Fixed ;)

shovelpass#30
09-18-2011, 04:33 PM
Better in the run game today, but what is with all the holding calls? Someone who knows o-line play, is Clady struggling out there as much as the flags would suggest?

myMind
09-18-2011, 04:57 PM
Wheres the beef?
We need more beef!

crush17
09-18-2011, 04:58 PM
Walton and Beadles looked pretty terrible again at times today.

Clady w/two holding calls at crucial times.

Kaylore
09-18-2011, 05:00 PM
Beadles is inconsistent. It's like all or nothing for him. Clady got beat up pretty bad, unfortunately.

crush17
09-18-2011, 05:00 PM
Orton was also holding on to the ball way too long on several plays.

Ziggy
09-18-2011, 05:36 PM
Beadles is beyond bad. I still think that Franklin plays LG before too long.

enjolras
09-18-2011, 05:47 PM
Beadles is inconsistent. It's like all or nothing for him. Clady got beat up pretty bad, unfortunately.

He looks like a young player. He's definitely shown the ability to play at this level. Now it's up to the team to develop that consistency. I'm actually really optimistic for our whole line. They are an EXTREMELY inexperienced unit. Remember that Beadles spent the bulk of last season at right tackle.

I really think the sky is the limit for this unit. We'll see what Fox and company can do to develop the talent that is there.

TheReverend
09-18-2011, 05:48 PM
Beadles is inconsistent. It's like all or nothing for him. Clady got beat up pretty bad, unfortunately.

Agree. I think playing immediately next to Walton isn't helping EITHER of them look like successful linemen.

Kaylore
09-18-2011, 05:52 PM
Agree. I think playing immediately next to Walton isn't helping EITHER of them look like successful linemen.

No. Walton gives less ground than he did last season. But it's a tall order to have them lean on each other like that. I will say we got some nice push in the running game today. Much better and much more cohesive. Fanklin played better too.

kappys
09-18-2011, 05:53 PM
There seems to be a vigorous debate as to whom is worse Beadles or Walton. Personally I vote Walton he is a disaster right in the middle of the chain.

TheReverend
09-18-2011, 05:54 PM
No. Walton gives less ground than he did last season. But it's a tall order to have them lean on each other like that. I will say we got some nice push in the running game today. Much better and much more cohesive. Fanklin played better too.

...Because he's too busy holding?

OrangeSe7en
09-18-2011, 05:59 PM
There seems to be a vigorous debate as to whom is worse Beadles or Walton. Personally I vote Walton he is a disaster right in the middle of the chain.

Both should be replaced. They should bring in a veteran and draft someone like Zeitler.

Kaylore
09-18-2011, 06:00 PM
...Because he's too busy holding?

He didn't hold the whole game...

eddie mac
09-18-2011, 06:12 PM
They need to get better and fast if we're to win many more games this year. Orton is not the kind of QB to pull games out when he has no time to throw or a supporting rungame.

Hamrob
09-18-2011, 06:28 PM
I think this line will come together. I wish Walton had longe arms, but I'm not giving up on him yet.

Inkana7
09-18-2011, 07:01 PM
I'd be a little more at ease with the average play if it didn't come with so many penalties. They really have to clean that up.

Drek
09-18-2011, 07:26 PM
Both should be replaced. They should bring in a veteran and draft someone like Zeitler.

You want to replace a 2nd round pick and a 3rd round pick two games into their second season.

Hell of a way to build a team there. Give up on anyone who isn't an immediate impact.

What we should have done last year and again this year was signing solid vets to go with them so that neither is forced to play before they're ready. Then when they beat out the vet we still would have a solid vet for depth in case someone gets hurt and not spend an entire season bouncing Beadles around between LG and RT or having Walton surrounded by musical chairs OGs (both of which we did last year).

Magazu is supposed to be a great line coach. I'd like to see what he could do with our young guys given a regular off-season. There is no reason for putting up with these growing pains other than saving money vets would cost us, but long term both could have a real future here.

shovelpass#30
09-19-2011, 06:39 AM
You want to replace a 2nd round pick and a 3rd round pick two games into their second season.

Hell of a way to build a team there. Give up on anyone who isn't an immediate impact.



I agree - not giving up on the young guys yet. I'm more concerned about whether Clady isn't going to get back to where he was two seasons ago. Or am I being unfair, and he's having to make up for Beadles' mistakes?

Mediator12
09-19-2011, 07:11 AM
You want to replace a 2nd round pick and a 3rd round pick two games into their second season.

Hell of a way to build a team there. Give up on anyone who isn't an immediate impact.

What we should have done last year and again this year was signing solid vets to go with them so that neither is forced to play before they're ready. Then when they beat out the vet we still would have a solid vet for depth in case someone gets hurt and not spend an entire season bouncing Beadles around between LG and RT or having Walton surrounded by musical chairs OGs (both of which we did last year).

Magazu is supposed to be a great line coach. I'd like to see what he could do with our young guys given a regular off-season. There is no reason for putting up with these growing pains other than saving money vets would cost us, but long term both could have a real future here.

Not the way Fox did it in CAR. He drafted young guys and let them play right away to sink or swim. He was never a big FA vet Line guy.

Personally, I think they are way better than they are playing right now. Plus, the shortened offseason exacerbates a young inexperienced OL. The young, inexperienced OL's are all off to slow starts around the NFL after 2 weeks. That is just a theme of a shortened offseason. I think they will continue to develop and will continue to get more disciplined with experience.

2 more weeks and we should be able to see how they really are capable of playing iMHO.

OrangeSe7en
09-19-2011, 05:09 PM
You want to replace a 2nd round pick and a 3rd round pick two games into their second season.

Hell of a way to build a team there. Give up on anyone who isn't an immediate impact.

What we should have done last year and again this year was signing solid vets to go with them so that neither is forced to play before they're ready. Then when they beat out the vet we still would have a solid vet for depth in case someone gets hurt and not spend an entire season bouncing Beadles around between LG and RT or having Walton surrounded by musical chairs OGs (both of which we did last year).

Magazu is supposed to be a great line coach. I'd like to see what he could do with our young guys given a regular off-season. There is no reason for putting up with these growing pains other than saving money vets would cost us, but long term both could have a real future here.

If you're going to put it in those terms, I don't see you clamoring for Alfonso Smith, Richard Quinn, or Darcel McBath.

sgbfan
09-19-2011, 11:02 PM
I was rewatching the raiders game on Sunday and saw Walton get owned on a lot of plays. He was getting pushed around like a rag doll. I'd see a defensive lineman blow up the play, rewind and watch again, and sure enough, it was Walton getting pushed back almost every time.

Agamemnon
09-19-2011, 11:05 PM
Not the way Fox did it in CAR. He drafted young guys and let them play right away to sink or swim. He was never a big FA vet Line guy.

Personally, I think they are way better than they are playing right now. Plus, the shortened offseason exacerbates a young inexperienced OL. The young, inexperienced OL's are all off to slow starts around the NFL after 2 weeks. That is just a theme of a shortened offseason. I think they will continue to develop and will continue to get more disciplined with experience.

2 more weeks and we should be able to see how they really are capable of playing iMHO.

Fox didn't draft anybody at Carolina. I'm sure he had input, but he wasn't in charge of the final decisions.

Bronco Boy
09-19-2011, 11:59 PM
I don't get people saying Franklin should be a guard. I'm not a OL expert or anything but a lot of time when I've focused on him he does a pretty good job shuffling back in pass protection. He's made several mistakes but he's a rookie.

cutthemdown
09-20-2011, 12:09 AM
Yeah I think Franklin looks slightly better in pass protection over the running stuff. Dont see why that would scream guard.

cutthemdown
09-20-2011, 12:10 AM
I was rewatching the raiders game on Sunday and saw Walton get owned on a lot of plays. He was getting pushed around like a rag doll. I'd see a defensive lineman blow up the play, rewind and watch again, and sure enough, it was Walton getting pushed back almost every time.

I sort of did same thing and the guards have same thing happen quite often.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
09-20-2011, 12:20 AM
To fix the Offensive Line hire the second best Offensive Line coach we ever had. Rick "Rico" Dennison!

Drek
09-20-2011, 04:10 AM
If you're going to put it in those terms, I don't see you clamoring for Alfonso Smith, Richard Quinn, or Darcel McBath.

Then you haven't been reading.

When everyone was having their little hate parade on Quinn when he was put on injury waivers I was the one pointing out that he wasn't released, he had to clear waivers to make it on IR. The guy is still a Bronco and still might have a future here. We're going to a TE heavy offense in the near future if you ask me, Quinn could potentially play a big role.

McBath is someone I've had a lot of hope for and have said as much. At this point I think he's just too far behind where a 3rd year player should be in the NFL because he's had far too many bad injury breaks. Eventually that takes its tole. Its a shame but it happens.

As for Alphonso Smith, well, I'm pretty sure I've said it before and I'm sure I'll say it again. My two most disappointing moments in McDaniels tenure here were when he traded a future first to get Alphonso Smith in the 2nd and then when he gave up on Alphonso Smith after only one season to keep Nate Jones.

Smith is proved himself to be a solid player in this league when given a real chance last year with Detroit. McDaniels just gave up on him way too soon. Crazy thing is he gave up on Smith well after most Broncos fans already had. The perception of that trade branded Smith with fans and having a positive opinion of the player was viewed as condoning the trade itself.

I've always argued for patience with young players, a new team, and new management. I'd even argue for that with the current Broncos brain trust if Ellis and Xanders weren't still there dicking everything up. I'm also going to extend a ton of patience to this year's club because it is working through so many philisophical differences. Probably none greater than what is happening on the OL.

No one questioned Beadles as a 2nd rounder. Most draft analysts viewed him as a late 2nd/early 3rd if you wanted an tackle, early to mid 2nd if you wanted a guard. Walton was insanely productive in college and went about where most thought he should, the 3rd round.

Both were fairly high value for interior line acquisitions. They've both worked with a real, qualified OL coach for a little under two months now. Maybe they deserve a bit more time before you label them as busts and look to dump them. Fox and Magazu built one hell of an OL in Carolina. They might know what they're doing with that unit.

Drek
09-20-2011, 04:14 AM
Not the way Fox did it in CAR. He drafted young guys and let them play right away to sink or swim. He was never a big FA vet Line guy.

Personally, I think they are way better than they are playing right now. Plus, the shortened offseason exacerbates a young inexperienced OL. The young, inexperienced OL's are all off to slow starts around the NFL after 2 weeks. That is just a theme of a shortened offseason. I think they will continue to develop and will continue to get more disciplined with experience.

2 more weeks and we should be able to see how they really are capable of playing iMHO.

I completely agree that our entire OL is not playing at their peak abilities. Even our "veteran" OL starters in Clady and Kuper are young guys who will take time to adjust to Magazu and the new way he wants to do things.

And yes, this is Fox's MO. Young guys sink or swim on the OL out of the gate and generally he's been proven right in that approach when in Carolina. I'm just very concerned with the lack of real camp competition across the OL which has led to a complete absence of depth. We're dancing across the same tightrope McDaniels tried out last year, needing all the starting OL to stay healthy or find ourselves starting waiver wire level scrubs.

shovelpass#30
09-20-2011, 06:24 AM
The guy is still a Bronco and still might have a future here. We're going to a TE heavy offense in the near future if you ask me, Quinn could potentially play a big role.
.

Is that right? I thought Quinn was officially gone.

fontaine
09-20-2011, 06:28 AM
Both were fairly high value for interior line acquisitions. They've both worked with a real, qualified OL coach for a little under two months now. Maybe they deserve a bit more time before you label them as busts and look to dump them. Fox and Magazu built one hell of an OL in Carolina. They might know what they're doing with that unit.

I'm not disapointed with Walton/Beadles/Franklin. These are young guys who need to be given an extended run to show what they can do.

At this point, it's not rocket science. You need one/two very good OL (like Clady, maybe Kuper) to build around and the rest of the guys can be coached up to minimize their mistake. That's what every team in the league does since you're never going to get 4/5 stud OL at the same time.

What does concern me is that guys like Walton/Beadles aren't maulers or going to physically dominate the opposition. They HAVE be work with leverage, quick feet to manuever Dlineman and I have yet to see that. I don't know if that's on coaching or the players themselves.

Instead I keep seeing these guys get pushed around in pass protection and flop on the DL in the run game and fall down on them instead of steering them in a direction to open up a hole.

But right now the key has to be guys like Clady/Kuper as they are the most experienced and talented. There's no reason why these guys shouldn't be moving/pushing/steering their defenders to open up more running lanes.

Yes, the shortened off season is huge disadvantage to younger OL like ours but the one thing I did like is seeing the kind of stubborn, gritty determination our coaches showed in consistently running the ball instead of quickly giving up on it and going to the passing game. If our coaches have the same attitude then it will translate to a better run game.

bowtown
09-20-2011, 06:29 AM
Is that right? I thought Quinn was officially gone.

Nope, he's on IR. We were able to stash him so that he's nice and fresh for the Superbowl push next year. Big picture stuff here.

RunSilentRunDeep
09-20-2011, 06:34 AM
Then you haven't been reading.

When everyone was having their little hate parade on Quinn when he was put on injury waivers I was the one pointing out that he wasn't released, he had to clear waivers to make it on IR. The guy is still a Bronco and still might have a future here.

Quinn was released from injured reserve with an injury settlement. He's gone, he sucks.

bendog
09-20-2011, 06:36 AM
don't tell him that. He's still thinking Josh just didn't get enough time.

TheReverend
09-20-2011, 07:20 AM
Nope, he's on IR. We were able to stash him so that he's nice and fresh for the Superbowl push next year. Big picture stuff here.

http://www.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs3/1271203_o.gif

Drek
09-20-2011, 03:18 PM
Quinn was released from injured reserve with an injury settlement. He's gone, he sucks.

Good to know, but it doesn't change my point that we head a very long thread here when he was still on IR where everyone acted like he was already gone.

If they bring him in on a new deal as a camp body next year I'd look forward to seeing what he can do honestly. Its a shame that he was hurt basically all pre-season when we finally have a chance to use him as something other than depth behind Graham.

don't tell him that. He's still thinking Josh just didn't get enough time.

No, I said all last season that McDaniels deserved a third year unless he lost the locker room. It was pretty clear he lost the locker room last year, so he needed to be axed.

All I've said is that people keep acting like McDaniels made horrible football decisions when reality hasn't borne that out. Cutler hasn't turned into the messiah of Chicago, Marshall was replaced rather easily with Lloyd and we recouped valuable draft compensation along the way. The list goes on. He made some bad moves, like dumping Smith too early and giving up on Hillis (inextricably after carrying him on the 53 man with almost zero usage throughout 2009). But a lot of good moves were made and its clear the current brain trust agrees, as we have a very similar roster to the 2010 club.

The real problem with McDaniels became apparent last year, and its that he's an egotistical douche. No one thought that in New England, but maybe he was just completely overshadowed by Belichick and Brady. Or maybe being given the world a week after being hired here went to his head. But his personal issues, not his football decisions, are what sunk him. Bringing in Nolan was a great football move. Not tapping Nolan's wealth of experience, recent trials as a HC, and at the same time giving him unmolested control of the defense because you think you know better was letting your personality get in the way. Those are the hallmarks of the Josh McDaniels era. Solid football moves perverted by arrogance and inability to manage or delegate.

fontaine
09-20-2011, 04:37 PM
Good to know, but it doesn't change my point that we head a very long thread here when he was still on IR where everyone acted like he was already gone.

If they bring him in on a new deal as a camp body next year I'd look forward to seeing what he can do honestly. Its a shame that he was hurt basically all pre-season when we finally have a chance to use him as something other than depth behind Graham.



No, I said all last season that McDaniels deserved a third year unless he lost the locker room. It was pretty clear he lost the locker room last year, so he needed to be axed.

All I've said is that people keep acting like McDaniels made horrible football decisions when reality hasn't borne that out. Cutler hasn't turned into the messiah of Chicago, Marshall was replaced rather easily with Lloyd and we recouped valuable draft compensation along the way. The list goes on. He made some bad moves, like dumping Smith too early and giving up on Hillis (inextricably after carrying him on the 53 man with almost zero usage throughout 2009). But a lot of good moves were made and its clear the current brain trust agrees, as we have a very similar roster to the 2010 club.

The real problem with McDaniels became apparent last year, and its that he's an egotistical douche. No one thought that in New England, but maybe he was just completely overshadowed by Belichick and Brady. Or maybe being given the world a week after being hired here went to his head. But his personal issues, not his football decisions, are what sunk him. Bringing in Nolan was a great football move. Not tapping Nolan's wealth of experience, recent trials as a HC, and at the same time giving him unmolested control of the defense because you think you know better was letting your personality get in the way. Those are the hallmarks of the Josh McDaniels era. Solid football moves perverted by arrogance and inability to manage or delegate.

Maroney, LeKevin Smith, Jarvis Green, starting guys like stanley daniels, Hochstein, Simms, not to mention most of his first day picks, hiring Scarnechia etc etc are not good football moves in any universe.