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HAT
09-05-2011, 09:00 PM
I kind of laughed when SoCal threw out a statement today that Cutler was a winner under Shanny when the defense allowed 21 PPG or less. I joking responded that McD/Orton were 9-2 last two years with the same caveat.

I'm bored so I dug into some numbers....Food for thought.

The Orton led Broncos are 11-18 over the last 2 years (including the 'Skins & Charger games where Simms played a couple of halves) and most people want to put that solely on Orton and his sub-par numbers in the RZ and 3rd down %. And while it's fair to say that those numbers have indeed been sub-par, that's not the reason for the under .500 record.

I even bumped up the theoretical PPG allowed theory to 23.5 and the numbers are pretty telling.

Orton / Denver is 10-2 when the defense allows 23 points or less. Additionally, the offense scored 24 PPG on average in those games (about a FG better than their overall 2009-2010 average). Orton's TD/INT ratio in those games is 17-4. Yes, you read that right...Over 4-1!

Orton / Denver is 1-16 in games where the defense allowed 24 points or more. Denver's offense scored 18 PPG in those games...About a FG under their 2 year average. And I was surprised to see that Orton's TD/INT ratio in those games was still 2-1 (16-8). The opponents average score in those games? 32! To put that in perspective...It's full TD WORSE than their two year average of 25 PPG allowed. That's an average point differential of 14 in those games.

Keep in mind that all of this occurred with an average to below average running game (4.0 YPC 2 year average). And with "the worst coach evah!" according to most.

So yeah, we know what Orton is.

A guy who can win games at an incredible clip with a semi-competent defense. .833 WP

A guy who can absolutely take care of the ball with a semi competent defense. 17 TDs in 12 games to only 4 INTs.

A guy who's going to lose a few coin flips in close games where the defense did their jobs.

A guy who is for the most part still going to take care of the ball when the defense is sucking (16-8 TD/INT in =/> 24 PPG defensive performances)

A guy who will occasionally **** the bed and be the direct cause of the defense sucking.

Is John Fox a better game day coach than McD?
Will Denver's YPC be better under Fox than it was under McD?
Will Denver's D be better under Fox/Allen than it was under McD/Nolan/Wink?
With the return/addition of VonDoom?

If you think the answer is yes to all of the above than there is no reason to think that Denver can't win 10 games with a healthy Orton under center.

PS. This is not a Tebow thread. I like him too and want him to start when and if the playoffs are out of reach. I also wanted Orton traded pre-draft but the lockout screwed that pooch. I also don't want Orton extended unless something crazy happens like a 13-3 season and a deep playoff run that can largely be attributed to Orton himself.

TheReverend
09-05-2011, 09:03 PM
I kind of laughed when SoCal threw out a statement today that Cutler was a winner under Shanny

Orton with a ****ty D = 3-10

Cutler with a ****ty D = 8-8

So, stopped reading. You continue to be mind-numbingly stupid.

Looking forward to you claiming THIS is the year Orton goes to the pro-bowl... again...

Bronx33
09-05-2011, 09:07 PM
Lets pray hes stays healthy and OL can keep him from being pounded

TheReverend
09-05-2011, 09:10 PM
Lets pray hes stays healthy and OL can keep him from being pounded

(Insert video of Orton self sack to Dareus)

JPPT1974
09-05-2011, 09:11 PM
Hopefully the Broncos will be having a great year and a trip to the playoffs.

Inkana7
09-05-2011, 09:15 PM
Orton with a ****ty D = 3-10

Cutler with a ****ty D = 8-8

So, stopped reading. You continue to be mind-numbingly stupid.

Looking forward to you claiming THIS is the year Orton goes to the pro-bowl... again...

Rock solid logic right there.

Broncoman13
09-05-2011, 09:16 PM
Orton with a ****ty D = 3-10

Cutler with a ****ty D = 8-8

So, stopped reading. You continue to be mind-numbingly stupid.

Looking forward to you claiming THIS is the year Orton goes to the pro-bowl... again...

Don't be a douche bag, he posted some decent trends and came to the same conclusion many would come to by simply looking at the numbers. Orton has a knack to put up 300 yards and /ook extremely ordinary doing it. He can win us games if the D improves, it just wont be as fun to watch compared to Tebow, or even Cutler or Jake for that matter.

Dr. Broncenstein
09-05-2011, 09:22 PM
(Insert video of Orton self sack to Dareus)

<iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/18KQ2pBdd_Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

TheReverend
09-05-2011, 09:24 PM
*Make sarcastic comment and scamper away without actually refuting anything*

5 star post.

TheReverend
09-05-2011, 09:26 PM
Don't be a douche bag, he posted some decent trends and came to the same conclusion many would come to by simply looking at the numbers. Orton has a knack to put up 300 yards and /ook extremely ordinary doing it. He can win us games if the D improves, it just wont be as fun to watch compared to Tebow, or even Cutler or Jake for that matter.

Yeah, no, it was a really ****ty post from start to finish.

Quite frankly, let's cut to the chase and I'll just finish the thread title:

"We know what Orton is... a journeyman backup QB whose position on the depth chart highlights how ****ed we currently are"

All better?

TheReverend
09-05-2011, 09:27 PM
<iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/18KQ2pBdd_Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I really need to bookmark this thing

KevinJames
09-05-2011, 09:28 PM
The Orton hate on this board is ridiculous.......

Dr. Broncenstein
09-05-2011, 09:30 PM
The Orton hate on this board is ridiculous.......

You'll get over it.

Finger Roll
09-05-2011, 09:31 PM
The Orton hate on this board is ridiculous.......

It's not just this board. It's pretty much every Broncos Board. I would say about 75% of Broncos fans don't like the guy. Probably because he sucks.

TheReverend
09-05-2011, 09:31 PM
The Orton hate on this board is ridiculous.......

Uh... it's the BELIEF in Orton that is ****ing ridiculous.

Kid's been benched at every turn.

After his best season ever, his "team" throws everything and the kitchen sink at us to get rid of him and replace him with actual NFL talent.

The guy that traded for him wouldn't even give him an extension longer than 1 year.

The current FO has said they aren't planning on extending him.

NO ONE ****ING WANTED HIM ON THE TRADE BLOCK.

Get this **** through your head.

He sucks as bad as he looks on Sundays.

Inkana7
09-05-2011, 09:32 PM
5 star post.

Thanks brah, I model my style after you.

TheReverend
09-05-2011, 09:34 PM
Thanks brah, I model my style after you.

If that were actually even remotely the case I would honestly run straight into the highway right now. Promise. Instead you're a mixture of illiteracy and straight 0 comprehension the very rare occasions when you try to talk football. If I'm ever feeling down, and I never am, I could look in the mirror and say "I'm not Inkana" and immediately feel better and ready to take on the day.

Shananahan
09-05-2011, 09:41 PM
I don't really have any hate for Orton at all, but the title of the thread is a very good one considering the original post.

All those fancy stats tell me is that Orton has proven capable of playing just fine and not making mistakes when the defense is playing well and he isn't needed to win the game. When the defense starts giving up points and yards or the going gets tough, he's not all that useful and sometimes just lousy. But then, I already knew that about him.

extralife
09-05-2011, 09:41 PM
The Orton hate on this board is ridiculous.......

it's like five nutjob posters, they all just happen to post the same **** 35 times a day

Inkana7
09-05-2011, 09:45 PM
If that were actually even remotely the case I would honestly run straight into the highway right now. Promise. Instead you're a mixture of illiteracy and straight 0 comprehension the very rare occasions when you try to talk football. If I'm ever feeling down, and I never am, I could look in the mirror and say "I'm not Inkana" and immediately feel better and ready to take on the day.

Heh. I mean, I guess I could aspire to spend like 75% of my day calling people on the OMane stupid and getting so attached to certain players that I act like I'm their father, but I'm too busy not being an ass.

Rother8
09-05-2011, 09:52 PM
JAGS
Or
Jaguars?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
09-05-2011, 09:53 PM
(Insert video of Orton self sack to Dareus)

(insert video of Timmah doing the same against AZ.)

TDmvp
09-05-2011, 09:53 PM
http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/917/neckbeardismyhomeboydes.png


Been saving that for just such a moment LOLOLOL

HAT
09-05-2011, 10:01 PM
The way I see it...

You can only even consider making a case against Orton being the cause of 3 2009 losses.

1) Game 8 vs. Pitt
This one is 100% on Kyle. The defense pitched a shutout in the 1H. Pitt led 7-3 at the half on a pick 6. Denver took a 10-7 lead on the Ayers fumble return. The D was gassed and Pitt finadlly drove the field to make it 14-10. Orton then throws pick #2 to Polamalu deep in Denver territory, Pitt scores 3 plays later and that's all she wrote. Defense played their heart out and even scored a rare TD but the offense did nothing and Orton would finish with 3 picks.

2) Game 14 vs. Oak
This was a pure team loss. Orton deserves his fair share of blame as the offense scored 4 FG's to a single TD. A lot of that goes on McD and an anemic run game that only managed 2.9 YPC though. Still though, Denver led deep in the 4th Q and the D couldn't get off the field....Yielding a 4th and 10 conversion and an eventual TD to JaFatty. At the end of the day, Orton did not do anything to win it but certainly did nothing to lose it.

3) Game 16 vs. KC
Obviously on Orton (And to a lesser extent McD). Close game until mid 3rd. orton throws not one but TWO pick 6's after that. Clearly a case where Orton was a direct cause of the box score showing 44 points allowed. The real question here is does anyone envision John Fox calling 56 pass plays to 22 runs? You throw the ball that many times and picks are going to happen.

And before anyone says "What about the Philly game?" (Because it was a point loss)...Not even.

Orton was extremely efficient...tosses 3 TD's on 27 of 41 for only 171 yards passing and Prater adds 2 FG's. Orton did toss a 3rd Q INT but Philly went 3 and out. Denver actually gained 15 yards on the exchange, the INT was thrown from Philly's 40 and Denver took posession on Philly's 25 after the 3 and out. Unfortunately, the D gives up 400 yards and 30 points on a last second FG and that's that. Orton and the offense easily played well enough to win. Whoever had the ball last was going to win and it came up Philly. I think it's clear that it was close because of Orton & not in spite of him.

Shananahan
09-05-2011, 10:09 PM
So basically your entire argument is that he doesn't really lose games?

HAT
09-05-2011, 10:10 PM
ou continue to be mind-numbingly stupid.

Looking forward to you claiming THIS is the year Orton goes to the pro-bowl... again...

Not at all. I only postulated that in 2010 because of McD. (And because a top tier QB usually passes on the PB) And he was well on track by every QB metric through 11 games.... until the injury in KC.

They don't judge Pro Bowl selections on W/L so if he doesn't get hurt in KC and play hurt in AZ....I still believe he would've been the first alternate instead of Cassel

Don't confuse the fact that I predicted him making it with me thinking he is a pro bowl caliber QB. He's not. Just like Cassel isn't....And even your boy JC.

Swedish Extrovert
09-05-2011, 10:13 PM
I've always loved abstract statistical analysis in sports, but somehow it doesn't add up when the tides change. IE, when we do start allowing fewer PPG, Orton might start sucking more in that scenario. Or not.

I like Kyle as a person and a QB, and he's at least an above-average starter. I hope he can prove that this year.

strafen
09-05-2011, 10:15 PM
Orton with a ****ty D = 3-10

Cutler with a ****ty D = 8-8

So, stopped reading. You continue to be mind-numbingly stupid.

Looking forward to you claiming THIS is the year Orton goes to the pro-bowl... again...Bwahaha!! AssHAT is a freaking idiot. He loves being an idiot.
I like it when he tries to bet money to prove a point.
In ALL those instances he had tried to bait people into waging money, he would've lost big time EVERY single time had somebody taken this asswipe seriously...

Oh, and don't quote him...
This message is hidden because assHAT is on your ignore list

Popps
09-05-2011, 10:17 PM
<iframe width="420" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/E7_duxRMIh0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

KevinJames
09-05-2011, 10:18 PM
Uh... it's the BELIEF in Orton that is ****ing ridiculous.

Kid's been benched at every turn.

After his best season ever, his "team" throws everything and the kitchen sink at us to get rid of him and replace him with actual NFL talent.

The guy that traded for him wouldn't even give him an extension longer than 1 year.

The current FO has said they aren't planning on extending him.

NO ONE ****ING WANTED HIM ON THE TRADE BLOCK.

Get this **** through your head.

He sucks as bad as he looks on Sundays.

You make good points although I would argue under McDaniels every team knew all we could do is throw the football and still he did alright under those circumstances so why not see what he can do with a better defense and a better run game?

Also do I have to remind you we don't have anyone better. Kyle is the starting QB and this off season the way hes worked and prepared himself he deserves it, he never let the distractions get to him and he never tried to wine his way out of Denver because his name was in trade talks.

Everyone that HATES Kyle is just advocating for Tebow and lets face it the kid needs work and a full off season hes so far from ready right now.

HAT
09-05-2011, 10:19 PM
So basically your entire argument is that he doesn't really lose games?

Sure he does. Every QB does. See 2009 examples...Pitt & KC. And I'll post the 2010 examples in a few.

My argument is that he has proven, as a Bronco, that he can win games if the D plays even remotely average. Even with an average to below average ground game and a decidedly below average coach.

I want to see Tebow as the QBOTF as much as anyone, But not until the 2011 playoffs are out of reach.

KevinJames
09-05-2011, 10:21 PM
Kyle is a better than average QB he may even be considered good. Need proof? All you have to do is watch the Patriots game from 2009.

Don't forget we were 2 hurt Orton games away from making the playoffs that year.

I would argue our team this year on paper is better than that team, so why not quit b****in have a little faith in your team and enjoy the Von Doom show

strafen
09-05-2011, 10:23 PM
http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/917/neckbeardismyhomeboydes.png


Been saving that for just such a moment LOLOLOLOh, that's precious. Ha! ^5 :strong: Rep!

HAT
09-05-2011, 10:24 PM
I've always loved abstract statistical analysis in sports, but somehow it doesn't add up when the tides change. IE, when we do start allowing fewer PPG, Orton might start sucking more in that scenario. Or not.


Agree 100%. You just never know. My OP is not so much trying to extrapolate some random </> PPG allowed theory....It's more of a reminder how very much of a team game the NFL is.

I'm looking forward to seeing what Orton can do with a competent D, ground game & better game day coaching.

If it's same ol' same ol'....That's fine too. Cut bait when and if the playoffs are out of reach.

HAT
09-05-2011, 10:31 PM
NO ONE ****ING WANTED HIM ON THE TRADE BLOCK.



After the lock out, draft & shortened camp? Sure.

He would've been an easy draft day trade for a mid 2nd-early 3rd. At least one of the six teams that took a QB in the 1st or 2nd would've rather had a stop gap and be in play for the better QB crop in 2012.

NUB
09-05-2011, 10:37 PM
He wins when the team plays well, and loses when they don't?

What, exactly, is new about this? It's Game Management 101, of which Orton very well may be king.

Shananahan
09-05-2011, 10:56 PM
He wins when the team plays well, and loses when they don't?

What, exactly, is new about this? It's Game Management 101, of which Orton very well may be king.
More or less what I said on the first page.

I think I want a little more out of the starting quarterback than simply not losing winnable games.

Perry1977
09-05-2011, 11:49 PM
I don't think that the defensive PPG allowed is a total indicator of how well the defense is playing. What about the offense stalling and going three-and-out, or failing to be able to pick up 3rd and short? A ****ty offense that can't stay on the field is of course going to have negative effects on the defense. Did you take that into account at all?

IMO our "32nd ranked" Defense is 50% due to having a ****ty defense and 50% due to having an offense that can't sustain drives.

cutthemdown
09-05-2011, 11:59 PM
I've been saying for 2 years we can't know anything because the defense is sooo bad. Orton just not such a gamer he can be expected to score 30 points to win. He needs to be on a team where the defense does some damage.

I love Tebow, glad he's on team, look forward to seeing him learn the nfl game, but I never blamed Orton for our losing. He had zero running game, a coach who missed on virtually every draft pick he made, and a defense that let the other team either score, or pin the offense deep.

Broncos started so many drives on the wrong side of the 20 its not funny.

I really think defense fixed 4 spots with the Bunkley trade, the Moore and Miller picks, and getting Doom back. If those 4 spots work out the defense could be pretty good. Give Orton a few easy scores, some field position, he could win.

cutthemdown
09-06-2011, 12:01 AM
I don't think that the defensive PPG allowed is a total indicator of how well the defense is playing. What about the offense stalling and going three-and-out, or failing to be able to pick up 3rd and short? A ****ty offense that can't stay on the field is of course going to have negative effects on the defense. Did you take that into account at all?

IMO our "32nd ranked" Defense is 50% due to having a ****ty defense and 50% due to having an offense that can't sustain drives.

More like the defense constantly letting the other team pin the broncos led the offense to have to go to far too often. Our offense didn't turn the ball over that much really, and special teams stinking on coverage is not Ortons fault. LOL the offense not moving the ball made the defense stink.

The defense stunk because we had no free saftey, doom was hurt, we were playing a 3-4 and didn't have the front 7 for it. Vickerson and Bunkley in a 4-3 is going to surprise some people. Much easier for the DT to play in a 4-3 the a 3-4.

Now playing middle linebacker gets tougher, and we are still weak there, but the defense will be alot better.

Perry1977
09-06-2011, 12:18 AM
More like the defense constantly letting the other team pin the broncos led the offense to have to go to far too often. Our offense didn't turn the ball over that much really, and special teams stinking on coverage is not Ortons fault. LOL the offense not moving the ball made the defense stink.

The defense stunk because we had no free saftey, doom was hurt, we were playing a 3-4 and didn't have the front 7 for it. Vickerson and Bunkley in a 4-3 is going to surprise some people. Much easier for the DT to play in a 4-3 the a 3-4.

Now playing middle linebacker gets tougher, and we are still weak there, but the defense will be alot better.


Denver was 29th in third down conversions last year.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/downs/sort/thirdDownConvs

You're telling me that this had no impact at all on the defense's statistics?

cutthemdown
09-06-2011, 12:28 AM
Denver was 29th in third down conversions last year.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/downs/sort/thirdDownConvs

You're telling me that this had no impact at all on the defense's statistics?

No you are probably right that it had an impact. 50% like the post said? no way. No way was 50% of our defensive problems because Orton is no good. Not only that you can't blame the whole offensive ineptitude on Orton. He often had no running game and offensive line that wasn't exactly playing well. Go check the grading of the oline, they stunk. Even Kuper had a horrid yr run blocking, they just could not do it.

I think if we started Tebow, at this point he would be harder on the defense.

But above all that our new coach, Fox, has a history of yanking the QB if he doesn't win. Does anyone really think we will go 4-12 with Tebow on the bench all yr?

It was a smart move to play Orton after the trade fell apart. The vets support it, fox plays it safe, when Orton proves to these coaches he cant get it done they will make a switch.

If he proves otherwise then so be it. He has what 3800 yrds and 20 tds? Really had the running game been able to smash a few tds in here and there the offense may have been much better.

Really though we couldnt even get it in from the 2 yrd line on the ground. I do agree Tebow could probably get those in and I would like to see him given the chance here and there. Ideally though you want to be able to run it in once you get 1st and goal anywhere inside the 10 yrd line.

So yes I think saying 50% of the defenses problem was Ortons fault is a joke of a statement. You want to say 10% of the defenses problems were because the offense failed to score enough, then I will go along with it. But Orton can't be singled out like that.

epicSocialism4tw
09-06-2011, 12:56 AM
It's not just this board. It's pretty much every Broncos Board. I would say about 75% of Broncos fans don't like the guy. Probably because he sucks.

LOL

Holy cow. Masterpiece in surprise-by-blunt-hilarity. Hilarious!

HAT
09-06-2011, 01:03 AM
Denver was 29th in third down conversions last year.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/downs/sort/thirdDownConvs

You're telling me that this had no impact at all on the defense's statistics?

Some impact, yes. 50%? Of course not.

Denver's TOP wasn't very good at 28:09 but it was a full 2 minutes better than the Titans who clocked in at 26:01 (worst in the league) yet yielded just 21.2 PPG

And even so, the problems on offense were bigger than Orton himself. That being the case, there is no way poor offensive play led to Denver's defense being 31st in picks, dead last in sacks.

Anyone know where Denver's D finished in 3rd down conversions allowed?

So again, I ask....

Is John Fox a better game day coach than McD?
Will Denver's YPC be better under Fox than it was under McD?
(Hopefully, including some Tebow work on 3rd & short)
Will Denver's D be better under Fox/Allen than it was under McD/Nolan/Wink?
With the return/addition of VonDoom?

HAT
09-06-2011, 01:22 AM
I think if we started Tebow, at this point he would be harder on the defense.



I know I said I didn't want to discuss Tebow in this thread, but:

This is the point that I think many who think Tebow should start out of the gate ignore.

There is absolutely no question that Tebow is more dynamic & athletic. Of course he would make conversions that Orton would not. Both 3rd down & RZ. That's why I hope we get to see that happen alongside Orton driving the bus for the majority of snaps.

Over 16 games that *may* even add up to a win or two that would not have been with Orton. However, how many more losses would result? It's all speculation of course but if Tebow were thrown into the fire full time come Monday night....His inexperience & sandlot style would lead to more than a few losses that would not have been with Orton.

Cut's got it right that Orton will be on a short leash anyway. If Denver is worse than 2-3 at the bye, it's Tebow time.

3 of the next 4 after the bye are on the road....If they aren't at least 4-5 at that point, Tebow will start game 10 at home vs. the Jets.

fontaine
09-06-2011, 01:53 AM
Is John Fox a better game day coach than McD?
Will Denver's YPC be better under Fox than it was under McD?
(Hopefully, including some Tebow work on 3rd & short)
Will Denver's D be better under Fox/Allen than it was under McD/Nolan/Wink?
With the return/addition of VonDoom?

1. Yes he is.
2. Yes it will. Our rushing average was among the worst this league has seen in the last decade. Even first year expansion teams had better yard per carry than Denver last year. McD's complete and total ignorance/stupidity was the primary reason for this like expecting a scrub like Stanley Daniels to start for us.
3. Yes, our D will be better simply because now we can rush the QB. We'll still suck in stopping the run but at least now, teams can't just have their QB sit back in the pocket and pass all day.


Orton is a mediocre QB. He's learned how to not cough up the ball but that's the basic minimum in this league.

Nobody would settle for mediocrity at the LT, RB, WR position then why settle for Orton's average QB play?

Kaylore
09-06-2011, 03:23 AM
Orton doesn't help out his defense very much. Granted, he doesn't put them in bad situations very often by turning the ball over, which Cutler did. But he doesn't sustain drives, convert third and longs, or close out games in the fourth quarter. This directly contributes to opponent offenses getting the ball more and increasing their chances to score.

To be clear, I'm not blaming our suck defense on Orton. I'm just saying he can make that number worse with the way he plays.

Cito Pelon
09-06-2011, 05:44 AM
Orton is not a great big glaring problem like some people like to present him as. He's an adequate NFL starter.

oubronco
09-06-2011, 06:04 AM
The Tebow love on this board is ridiculous.......

Fixed

jhns
09-06-2011, 06:11 AM
LOL @ kids trying to convince themselves that Orton is good. Every coach that plays Orton has also looked to replace him. The guys that make the game plans are saying that Orton isn't doinv what is asked of him... Facts just don't agree with hats Orton love.

jhns
09-06-2011, 06:16 AM
And even so, the problems on offense were bigger than Orton himself. That being the case, there is no way poor offensive play led to Denver's defense being 31st in picks, dead last in sacks.


What? Yes it does. If you aren't scoring, other teams don't have to pass nearly as much. You really think that doesn't make it harder to get sacks and interceptions?

TonyR
09-06-2011, 06:17 AM
I think I want a little more out of the starting quarterback than simply not losing winnable games.

I think we all do. And while I want Tebow to win the job I think the coaching staff saw a QB who may have more upside than Orton, and may makes some plays Orton won't and maybe even win a game or two Orton wouldn't, he'd also make a lot of mistakes that would cost the team some games. He's just not ready, despite what many of you think you saw in those games at the end of last season. He's just not an every down, starting QB yet.

If we defend better than last year, and run the football better than last year, Orton will be fine. The Orton you saw struggle last year was forced to throw the ball way too much on a team with a lousy defense and running game. He isn't nearly good enough to carry a team, very few QB's are. Plus he was injured. A healthy Orton with a better defense and running game will get the job done more often than not. He won't be exciting, he'll still make some plays and take some sacks that make you cringe, but overall he'll be good enough.

TonyR
09-06-2011, 06:21 AM
...Orton love.

I don't know that anyone "loves" Orton. I just think some people feel like he takes a lot more sh*t for the team's overall performance than he deserves. The hate often goes a little overboard. He's not remotely a "put the team on your back and propel it to victory" kind of player and never will be. But he can be a very competent game manager and will be fine with a good defense and running game.

Am I the only one who finds it funny that a lot of the same people blasting the Broncos and Orton are praising Shanahan and Rex freaking Grossman?!?

jhns
09-06-2011, 06:25 AM
I don't know that anyone "loves" Orton. I just think some people feel like he takes a lot more sh*t for the team's overall performance than he deserves. The hate often goes a little overboard. He's not remotely a "put the team on your back and propel it to victory" kind of player and never will be. But he can be a very competent game manager and will be fine with a good defense and running game.

Am I the only one who finds it funny that a lot of the same people blasting the Broncos and Orton are praising Shanahan and Rex freaking Grossman?!?

I haven't praised Rex but the situations don't compare. Shanahan has a history of getting good play out of crap QBs. Fox has a history of getting **** play out of average QBs.

TonyR
09-06-2011, 06:31 AM
I haven't praised Rex but the situations don't compare. Shanahan has a history of getting good play out of crap QBs. Fox has a history of getting **** play out of average QBs.

Who has more playoff appearances and wins over the last 10 years, John Fox or Mike Shanahan? How about Super Bowl appearances?

jhns
09-06-2011, 06:35 AM
Who has more playoff appearances and wins over the last 10 years, John Fox or Mike Shanahan? How about Super Bowl appearances?

So you are saying I am wrong?

Who has more wins? Shanahan

Who has more playoff wins? Shanahan

Who has more SB wins? Shanahan

Crushaholic
09-06-2011, 06:46 AM
A decent run game will make Orton better, which I hope will be accomplished by a better offensive line, and McGahee helping Moreno...

bronco0608
09-06-2011, 06:56 AM
If that were actually even remotely the case I would honestly run straight into the highway right now. Promise. Instead you're a mixture of illiteracy and straight 0 comprehension the very rare occasions when you try to talk football. If I'm ever feeling down, and I never am, I could look in the mirror and say "I'm not Inkana" and immediately feel better and ready to take on the day.

You take this WAY too seriously.

TheReverend
09-06-2011, 06:59 AM
You take this WAY too seriously.

Not really.

BroncoInferno
09-06-2011, 07:27 AM
Orton with a ****ty D = 3-10

Cutler with a ****ty D = 8-8

So, stopped reading. You continue to be mind-numbingly stupid.

Looking forward to you claiming THIS is the year Orton goes to the pro-bowl... again...

In the 8 games Cutler won is 2008, the defense allowed 22.6 points per game, including 20 or less in 5 of those wins. So, the D was usually at least decent in the games we managed to win that year, not ****ty.

Rohirrim
09-06-2011, 07:29 AM
So you are saying I am wrong?

Who has more wins? Shanahan

Who has more playoff wins? Shanahan

Who has more SB wins? Shanahan

Who had John Elway?

jhns
09-06-2011, 07:31 AM
Who had John Elway?

Elway never even made a SB without Shanahan... As long as youvleave that fact out, it may look like you actually have a point.

Crushaholic
09-06-2011, 07:34 AM
Elway never even made a SB without Shanahan... As long as youvleave that fact out, it may look like you actually have a point.

Elway never WON a SB without TD...

jhns
09-06-2011, 07:35 AM
Elway never WON a SB without TD...

Or Shanahan.

misturanderson
09-06-2011, 07:36 AM
Elway never even made a SB without Shanahan... As long as youvleave that fact out, it may look like you actually have a point.

Your premise is false. Try again.

Rohirrim
09-06-2011, 07:37 AM
Elway never even made a SB without Shanahan... As long as youvleave that fact out, it may look like you actually have a point.

I seem to remember a few under Dan Reeves.

jhns
09-06-2011, 07:37 AM
Your premise is false. Try again.

I stated a fact. You try again.

2KBack
09-06-2011, 07:39 AM
Shanahan's never been to a superbowl without Gary Kubiak....what does it all mean?

Nothing

2KBack
09-06-2011, 07:42 AM
I stated a fact. You try again.

Actually Shanahan was with the raiders when Denver played in Superbowl 24

jhns
09-06-2011, 07:42 AM
Shanahan not here, Elway doesn't make SBs.

Shanahan coaches on iffense, Elway makes SBs.

Shanahan becomes head coach and Elway wins Sbs.

Conclusion by Bronco "fans", who love to hate on Bronco greats, Shanahan had nothing to do with it...

Beantown Bronco
09-06-2011, 07:43 AM
Actually Shanahan was with the raiders when Denver played in Superbowl 24

Denver signed him around week 6 to be the QB coach after he was fired by the Raiders, so jhns is technically correct.

jhns
09-06-2011, 07:43 AM
Actually Shanahan was with the raiders when Denver played in Superbowl 24

Actually, he wasn't.

TheReverend
09-06-2011, 07:44 AM
Your premise is false. Try again.

...no it's not.

WolfpackGuy
09-06-2011, 07:45 AM
Shanahan returned as an assistant in 1989 shortly after Greasy Al fired him.

Hence the reason Al owed/owes him $250,000...

TheReverend
09-06-2011, 07:46 AM
Shanahan's never been to a superbowl without Gary Kubiak....what does it all mean?

Nothing

Also not remotely true... you guys are on fire.

misturanderson
09-06-2011, 07:46 AM
Denver signed him around week 6 to be the QB coach after he was fired by the Raiders, so jhns is technically correct.

Got it. Not that the addition of Shanahan back to the coaching staff significantly improved offensive output that season.

Rohirrim
09-06-2011, 07:46 AM
Shanahan not here, Elway doesn't make SBs.

Shanahan coaches on iffense, Elway makes SBs.

Shanahan becomes head coach and Elway wins Sbs.

Conclusion by Bronco "fans", who love to hate on Bronco greats, Shanahan had nothing to do with it...

Shanahan since Elway retired... ?

Crushaholic
09-06-2011, 07:46 AM
Shanahan not here, Elway doesn't make SBs.

Shanahan coaches on iffense, Elway makes SBs.

Shanahan becomes head coach and Elway wins Sbs.

Conclusion by Bronco "fans", who love to hate on Bronco greats, Shanahan had nothing to do with it...

Of course he had something to do with it. But, you must have all the pieces of the puzzle, which is why I brought up TD...

jhns
09-06-2011, 07:47 AM
Shanahan since Elway retired... ?

While he coached here? Number three in wins.

2KBack
09-06-2011, 07:48 AM
Also not remotely true... you guys are on fire.

I wasn't sure about the SB 24 thing, but the kubiak thing is 100% true. Kubes was drafted the same year as Elway, was on the team for every superbowl under reeves, was shanahan's QB coach in SF, and obviously OC on the championship teams.

Feel free to dispute that

Mile High Mojoe
09-06-2011, 07:52 AM
The only stat that matters:

"Orton has lost eight of nine, 14 of 17 and 17 of his past 22 starts."

Beantown Bronco
09-06-2011, 07:55 AM
The only stat that matters:

"Orton has lost eight of nine, 14 of 17 and 17 of his past 22 starts."

Champ's record is the same over the course of those same games. And he actually plays on the side of the ball that has been ranked the worst in Denver Broncos history. Maybe we should dump him too.

bronco militia
09-06-2011, 07:57 AM
Shanny was the Broncos QB coach two weeks after Al fired him

BroncoInferno
09-06-2011, 07:58 AM
The only stat that matters:

"Orton has lost eight of nine, 14 of 17 and 17 of his past 22 starts."

Well, I'd say the context is important as well. Unless you thought Orton was a top tier QB after week 6 in 2009 when his career record as a starter was 27-12.

TheReverend
09-06-2011, 08:00 AM
I wasn't sure about the SB 24 thing, but the kubiak thing is 100% true. Kubes was drafted the same year as Elway, was on the team for every superbowl under reeves, was shanahan's QB coach in SF, and obviously OC on the championship teams.

Feel free to dispute that

Holy crap! Ha! While I feel that's really reaching it really is true, so repped man.

oubronco
09-06-2011, 08:00 AM
The only stat that matters:

"Orton has lost eight of nine, 14 of 17 and 17 of his past 22 starts."

We all know that the QB is the only player on the field and plays Defense as well

2KBack
09-06-2011, 08:05 AM
Holy crap! Ha! While I feel that's really reaching it really is true, so repped man.

it doesn't mean **** really....I just think there is a limit to throwing out connections like that. Elway needed TD, Shanny needed Elway, Denver needed Shanny... the lesson is, you need lots of people doing pretty great things to win a championship.

Lolad
09-06-2011, 08:17 AM
The way I see it...

You can only even consider making a case against Orton being the cause of 3 2009 losses.

1) Game 8 vs. Pitt
This one is 100% on Kyle. The defense pitched a shutout in the 1H. Pitt led 7-3 at the half on a pick 6. Denver took a 10-7 lead on the Ayers fumble return. The D was gassed and Pitt finadlly drove the field to make it 14-10. Orton then throws pick #2 to Polamalu deep in Denver territory, Pitt scores 3 plays later and that's all she wrote. Defense played their heart out and even scored a rare TD but the offense did nothing and Orton would finish with 3 picks.

2) Game 14 vs. Oak
This was a pure team loss. Orton deserves his fair share of blame as the offense scored 4 FG's to a single TD. A lot of that goes on McD and an anemic run game that only managed 2.9 YPC though. Still though, Denver led deep in the 4th Q and the D couldn't get off the field....Yielding a 4th and 10 conversion and an eventual TD to JaFatty. At the end of the day, Orton did not do anything to win it but certainly did nothing to lose it.

3) Game 16 vs. KC
Obviously on Orton (And to a lesser extent McD). Close game until mid 3rd. orton throws not one but TWO pick 6's after that. Clearly a case where Orton was a direct cause of the box score showing 44 points allowed. The real question here is does anyone envision John Fox calling 56 pass plays to 22 runs? You throw the ball that many times and picks are going to happen.

And before anyone says "What about the Philly game?" (Because it was a point loss)...Not even.

Orton was extremely efficient...tosses 3 TD's on 27 of 41 for only 171 yards passing and Prater adds 2 FG's. Orton did toss a 3rd Q INT but Philly went 3 and out. Denver actually gained 15 yards on the exchange, the INT was thrown from Philly's 40 and Denver took posession on Philly's 25 after the 3 and out. Unfortunately, the D gives up 400 yards and 30 points on a last second FG and that's that. Orton and the offense easily played well enough to win. Whoever had the ball last was going to win and it came up Philly. I think it's clear that it was close because of Orton & not in spite of him.

The Philly game was all Orton defense **** the bed then woke up in the 2nd half. With a chance to go up near mid field on 3rd and 3. Orton throws the ball in the dirt. When he could have walked for a 1st down untouched!

Rohirrim
09-06-2011, 08:26 AM
it doesn't mean **** really....I just think there is a limit to throwing out connections like that. Elway needed TD, Shanny needed Elway, Denver needed Shanny... the lesson is, you need lots of people doing pretty great things to win a championship.

Don't forget Gary Zimmerman. He was a crucial part of that team, and Wade Phillips was responsible for him. So that means that Wade... ;D

strafen
09-06-2011, 08:26 AM
The only stat that matters:

"Orton has lost eight of nine, 14 of 17 and 17 of his past 22 starts."Bad trend going into this new season. /end thread...

TheReverend
09-06-2011, 08:27 AM
Well, I'd say the context is important as well. Unless you thought Orton was a top tier QB after week 6 in 2009 when his career record as a starter was 27-12.

You used the same record thing to try and slander Cutler on his way out the door and promote Orton.

Now that it doesn't really work anymore it's "context", huh?

It's all good, you have a history of being a spineless worm:

From this in early 06 during QB controversy:

Who said he was Unitas? All I'm saying is he's been a solid contributer since he's been a Bronco.

OK, I can make a straw man too:

Plummer is the worst QB in NFL history!! He in no way contributed to any of the 37 wins the Broncos have tallied with him at QB and is the sole reason behind all 13 losses!!! Cutler is God!!! Cutler is God!! Worship Cutler!!!!

To this in 2008:

Sorry, you are dead wrong. No defense, six RBs out with injury...you are freaking nuts if you think there are ten QBs who could have us at 8-5 with those circumstances. Flat ass wrong, and nuts.

To this literally a couple months later:

When Jay wins a playoff game--hell, plays in one--we can revisit the franchise QB bit. Until then, he is a talented but mistake prone work in progress, not a franchise QB.

Flaunting "wins" and not "context":

Elway had carried three teams to the Super Bowl on his back at that point. Cutler is 17-20 with zero playoff appearance, let alone playoff wins. Invalid comparison.

And this is just for amusement:

I can't wait until the day McDaniels wins a Superbowl for us and you will pretend you were riding shotgun all along.

Unlike the McD haters like yourself, our position is well reasoned and backed by facts. We're willing to give Jay support as long as he acts like an adult, which thus far he hasn't been.

Cliff notes:

-You're a spineless douche.

strafen
09-06-2011, 08:28 AM
We all know that the QB is the only player on the field and plays Defense as wellMan, you're such an idiot, it's hurting my feelings...

TheReverend
09-06-2011, 08:28 AM
it doesn't mean **** really....I just think there is a limit to throwing out connections like that. Elway needed TD, Shanny needed Elway, Denver needed Shanny... the lesson is, you need lots of people doing pretty great things to win a championship.

No one has or would disagree with that.

HILife
09-06-2011, 08:35 AM
I kind of laughed when SoCal threw out a statement today that Cutler was a winner under Shanny when the defense allowed 21 PPG or less. I joking responded that McD/Orton were 9-2 last two years with the same caveat.

I'm bored so I dug into some numbers....Food for thought.

The Orton led Broncos are 11-18 over the last 2 years (including the 'Skins & Charger games where Simms played a couple of halves) and most people want to put that solely on Orton and his sub-par numbers in the RZ and 3rd down %. And while it's fair to say that those numbers have indeed been sub-par, that's not the reason for the under .500 record.

I even bumped up the theoretical PPG allowed theory to 23.5 and the numbers are pretty telling.

Orton / Denver is 10-2 when the defense allows 23 points or less. Additionally, the offense scored 24 PPG on average in those games (about a FG better than their overall 2009-2010 average). Orton's TD/INT ratio in those games is 17-4. Yes, you read that right...Over 4-1!

Orton / Denver is 1-16 in games where the defense allowed 24 points or more. Denver's offense scored 18 PPG in those games...About a FG under their 2 year average. And I was surprised to see that Orton's TD/INT ratio in those games was still 2-1 (16-8). The opponents average score in those games? 32! To put that in perspective...It's full TD WORSE than their two year average of 25 PPG allowed. That's an average point differential of 14 in those games.

Keep in mind that all of this occurred with an average to below average running game (4.0 YPC 2 year average). And with "the worst coach evah!" according to most.

So yeah, we know what Orton is.

A guy who can win games at an incredible clip with a semi-competent defense. .833 WP

A guy who can absolutely take care of the ball with a semi competent defense. 17 TDs in 12 games to only 4 INTs.

A guy who's going to lose a few coin flips in close games where the defense did their jobs.

A guy who is for the most part still going to take care of the ball when the defense is sucking (16-8 TD/INT in =/> 24 PPG defensive performances)

A guy who will occasionally **** the bed and be the direct cause of the defense sucking.

Is John Fox a better game day coach than McD?
Will Denver's YPC be better under Fox than it was under McD?
Will Denver's D be better under Fox/Allen than it was under McD/Nolan/Wink?
With the return/addition of VonDoom?

If you think the answer is yes to all of the above than there is no reason to think that Denver can't win 10 games with a healthy Orton under center.

PS. This is not a Tebow thread. I like him too and want him to start when and if the playoffs are out of reach. I also wanted Orton traded pre-draft but the lockout screwed that pooch. I also don't want Orton extended unless something crazy happens like a 13-3 season and a deep playoff run that can largely be attributed to Orton himself.

McD/Wink? That's a silly question to ask. Under McD/Nolan? I'm going to say yes, since the team might actually have a pass rush and the players are more built for the scheme.

oubronco
09-06-2011, 08:36 AM
Man, you're such an idiot, it's hurting my feelings...

Because knowing the whole fuggin team sucked and Orton wasn't the only reason they sucked makes me an idiot

Beantown Bronco
09-06-2011, 08:36 AM
The Philly game was all Orton defense **** the bed then woke up in the 2nd half. With a chance to go up near mid field on 3rd and 3. Orton throws the ball in the dirt. When he could have walked for a 1st down untouched!

On one hand, we have a defense that gives up 30 pts.
On the other, we have a QB who throws 3 TDs, but has an incomplete pass during a potential game winning drive.

Definitely all on the QB.

oubronco
09-06-2011, 08:40 AM
On one hand, we have a defense that gives up 30 pts.
On the other, we have a QB who throws 3 TDs, but has an incomplete pass during a potential game winning drive.

Definitely all on the QB.

Funny isn't it

BroncoInferno
09-06-2011, 08:40 AM
You used the same record thing to try and slander Cutler on his way out the door and promote Orton.

Now that it doesn't really work anymore it's "context", huh?

It's all good, you have a history of being a spineless worm:

From this in early 06 during QB controversy:



To this in 2008:



To this literally a couple months later:



Flaunting "wins" and not "context":



And this is just for amusement:



Cliff notes:

-You're a spineless douche.

My opinions have to remain firm and unchanged over a multi year period? I was in the Cutler camp at one time. I've never said I wasn't. I reshaped my views as time and new evidence dictated. For me, my opinion changed drastically after seeing what an abolute two-year old he was during the Cassel fiasco. I seriously doubted at that point if he had the mental makeup to be a championship QB. I've also changed my opinion on Orton, too. I think less of him now than I did before he crapped the bed in his final three starts last season. Yeah, maybe he was injured, but so impaired to play THAT poorly? I want Tebow to start now, and have said so repeatedly. I just don't think it's necessary to bag on Orton and act like he's the worst QB in the league. His overall performance has been solid overall, but not good enough. Anyway, sorry if people changing their minds offends you. You must have loved George W. Bush.

TheReverend
09-06-2011, 08:45 AM
My opinions have to remain firm and unchanged over a multi year period? I was in the Cutler camp at one time. I've never said I wasn't. I reshaped my views as time and new evidence dictated. For me, my opinion changed drastically after seeing what an abolute two-year old he was during the Cassel fiasco. I seriously doubted that point if he had the mental makeup to be a championship QB. I've also changed my opinion on Orton, too. I think less of him now than I did before he crapped the bed in his final three starts last season. Yeah, maybe he injured, but so impaired to play THAT poorly? I want Tebow to start now, and have said so repeatedly. So, sorry if people changing their minds offends you. You must have loved George W. Bush.

Multi year period? How about you try starting with a 2-3 game period...

Nice nonsensical throw in of political smack that doesn't even apply to me to finish your standard horrible post though. And, because I'm now genuinely curious, what would "changing minds" have to do with loving George W Bush anyway?

BroncoInferno
09-06-2011, 08:50 AM
Multi year period? How about you try starting with a 2-3 game period...

Sure, I'll change my mind over a two or three games if new evidence convinces me to do so. I gave one example with regards to my change of opinion on Orton. Sue me.

Nice nonsensical throw in of political smack that doesn't even apply to me to finish your standard horrible post though. And, because I'm now genuinely curious, what would "changing minds" have to do with loving George W Bush anyway?

Because W. never changed his mind about anything. "Stay the course" and all that.

Garcia Bronco
09-06-2011, 08:51 AM
I really need to bookmark this thing

I don't know why you would. You can clearly see the RT get pushed all the way back and it caused Orton to move. At whihc point he protected the ball. This is a smart play by Orton most of the time.

OABB
09-06-2011, 08:53 AM
I don't know why you would. You can clearly see the RT get pushed all the way back and it caused Orton to move. At whihc point he protected the ball. This is a smart play by Orton most of the time.

very smart play. in rugby.

WolfpackGuy
09-06-2011, 08:55 AM
He's a decent fantasy QB if you're into that.

LOL

OABB
09-06-2011, 08:57 AM
He's a decent fantasy QB if you're into that.

LOL

i prefer winning and scoring points to that, but Im crazy I guess.

Broncos4tw
09-06-2011, 09:39 AM
Orton is smoke and mirrors. He is a sevicable QB, but he is missing all the attributes needed to win the playoff games. Even without a proper running game, he still blew wide open opportunities last year on third downs. Even with next to no pressure. Hell, he bumped into his own guy and went fetal. I understand he had ankle issues, but sometimes with WIDE open lanes, he threw it away (or went fetal).

He doesn't exactly choke under pressure, but he certainly doesn't have that elevated play needed when things get rough. Elway, he had that quality. Tebow actually has it as well. Their eyes get wide, and they become hyperfocused on those critical downs. Orton doesn't change at all. He just trundles along as he always does, and it doesn't get the job done.

OABB
09-06-2011, 09:48 AM
Orton is smoke and mirrors. He is a sevicable QB, but he is missing all the attributes needed to win the playoff games. Even without a proper running game, he still blew wide open opportunities last year on third downs. Even with next to no pressure. Hell, he bumped into his own guy and went fetal. I understand he had ankle issues, but sometimes with WIDE open lanes, he threw it away (or went fetal).

He doesn't exactly choke under pressure, but he certainly doesn't have that elevated play needed when things get rough. Elway, he had that quality. Tebow actually has it as well. Their eyes get wide, and they become hyperfocused on those critical downs. Orton doesn't change at all. He just trundles along as he always does, and it doesn't get the job done.

but he is better in practice...

Requiem
09-06-2011, 09:50 AM
Orton is who we thought he was: A LOSER.

Dedhed
09-06-2011, 10:24 AM
Kyle is a better than average QB he may even be considered good. Need proof? All you have to do is watch the Patriots game from 2009.

And what happens when you watch the Chiefs game from last year, or the Raiders game from last year?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
09-06-2011, 10:26 AM
And what happens when you watch the Chiefs game from last year, or the Raiders game from last year?

You mean players have good games AND bad games? Oh man... someone alert the press.

Really a strong take as always, deadhead.

errand
09-06-2011, 10:53 AM
Actually Shanahan was with the raiders when Denver played in Superbowl 24

Mike had returned to broncos as qb coach after 5th or 6th week of '89 season .........

Dedhed
09-06-2011, 11:00 AM
You mean players have good games AND bad games? Oh man... someone alert the press.
But your fellow Ortonite said all we had to do to learn that Orton was a very good QB was watch a single game. So which is it?

Lolad
09-06-2011, 11:15 AM
On one hand, we have a defense that gives up 30 pts.
On the other, we have a QB who throws 3 TDs, but has an incomplete pass during a potential game winning drive.

Definitely all on the QB.

The defense stopped them in the 2nd half. Philly couldn't score, he could have put them back on there heals if he would had converted a 3rd and short. Because we all know how automatic those have been for him...

Him throwing 3 TD's had more to do with field position than him being good that game. The defense put him in position to score he did what he was supposed to do.

oubronco
09-06-2011, 11:30 AM
And what happens when you watch the Chiefs game from last year, or the Raiders game from last year?

I see a Defense that couldn't stop a fat man from rolling uphill

Beantown Bronco
09-06-2011, 11:35 AM
The defense stopped them in the 2nd half. Philly couldn't score



Ummm, Philly scored 10 pts in the 2nd half.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
09-06-2011, 11:38 AM
I believe that Philly game also featured a couple of key drops from Tony Scheffler in important moments. At least one of them hit him in stride past the sticks on third down.

I was finished with Tony "I don't really give a **** about the season; let's just get out of here, guys" Scheffler after that.

Taco John
09-06-2011, 11:55 AM
This thread reminds me of the Griese days.

Dedhed
09-06-2011, 12:06 PM
I see a Defense that couldn't stop a fat man from rolling uphillThe defense gave up 10 points in the chiefs game. Orton gave up 14 points by himself to the Raiders.

Lolad
09-06-2011, 12:24 PM
Ummm, Philly scored 10 pts in the 2nd half.

Yes... Figure of speech, the D was a lot better, we got takeaways as well as stops which is why we were able to score 17 points in the 3rd quarter. With a game tying field goal or a TD to put us up Orton flakes.

elsid13
09-06-2011, 12:41 PM
Denver signed him around week 6 to be the QB coach after he was fired by the Raiders, so jhns is technically correct.

And let go after the season, because Elway and him were designing and running plays that Reeves didn't know about.

elsid13
09-06-2011, 12:42 PM
This thread reminds me of the Griese days.

Who would be your new Becky?

Beantown Bronco
09-06-2011, 12:43 PM
Yes... Figure of speech, the D was a lot better, we got takeaways as well as stops which is why we were able to score 17 points in the 3rd quarter. With a game tying field goal or a TD to put us up Orton flakes.

I'm still trying to figure out why you think he flaked and what play in particular you are referencing where he threw one in the dirt that cost them the game.

In their second to last drive, he drove them down the field for a field goal. In their last drive, he didn't throw any incompletions and had a potential 15 yarder called back due to holding.

errand
09-06-2011, 03:16 PM
And let go after the season, because Elway and him were designing and running plays that Reeves didn't know about.

Mike was let go in '91 I think.....

errand
09-06-2011, 03:31 PM
Who would be your new Becky?

Macgruder? Agennomon? Any other Tebowites?

Perry1977
09-06-2011, 04:50 PM
No you are probably right that it had an impact. 50% like the post said? no way. No way was 50% of our defensive problems because Orton is no good. Not only that you can't blame the whole offensive ineptitude on Orton. He often had no running game and offensive line that wasn't exactly playing well. Go check the grading of the oline, they stunk. Even Kuper had a horrid yr run blocking, they just could not do it.

So yes I think saying 50% of the defenses problem was Ortons fault is a joke of a statement. You want to say 10% of the defenses problems were because the offense failed to score enough, then I will go along with it. But Orton can't be singled out like that.

Um, learn to read? When did I say it was Orton's fault, and when did I single him out? I was talking about the offense as a whole, as my posts clearly stated.

Are you really arguing with me or just the voices in your head? ROFL!

broncolife
09-06-2011, 04:52 PM
Everyone that HATES Kyle is just advocating for Tebow and lets face it the kid needs work and a full off season hes so far from ready right now.

People disliked Orton before Tebow was even drafted by us

HAT
09-06-2011, 04:55 PM
People disliked Orton before Tebow was even drafted by us

Because he wasn't Cutler....Even though they're basically interchangeable at QB.

Perry1977
09-06-2011, 05:04 PM
Some impact, yes. 50%? Of course not.

Denver's TOP wasn't very good at 28:09 but it was a full 2 minutes better than the Titans who clocked in at 26:01 (worst in the league) yet yielded just 21.2 PPG

And even so, the problems on offense were bigger than Orton himself. That being the case, there is no way poor offensive play led to Denver's defense being 31st in picks, dead last in sacks.




I disagree. Denver was run on 531 times last season; only the Buffalo Bills were run on more (571).

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/rushing/sort/rushingAttempts/position/defense

However, Denver was only passed on 502 times, which is tied for 5th least in the NFL.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/passing/sort/passingAttempts/position/defense

Last I checked, you can't get an interception or a sack when the other team is running the ball on you. And other teams will run on you more when they are ahead...ie your offense is playing poorly and not scoring points.

Therefore, your point is invalid.

Perry1977
09-06-2011, 05:06 PM
Also, let me be clear that I fully recognize the defense sucked, and I am not claiming that the sole reason their stats were terrible was just because the offense sucked too. But it does have a large impact.

TailgateNut
09-06-2011, 05:09 PM
Because he wasn't Cutler....Even though they're basically interchangeable at QB.


Almost, except one throws less INT's, doesn't frown 24/7 and doesn't get all bent out of shape when the team is talking trade.

broncolife
09-06-2011, 05:23 PM
Heres a couple of old post I did on different topics. Thats the reason the layouts are different.Basically the 2008 D was crap compared to the 2009. At least the 2009 D got alot of turnovers which helped the O.

Denver Offensive drives in 2009

Cin-

20-6 plays for 23 yards and a punt
16-3 and out for4 yards
44-3 and out for -1 yard
16-3 and out for 4 yards
20-3 and out for 8 yards
18-9 play 52 yard field goal drive
14-3 and out for 3 yards
5-8 plays for 34 yards and a punt
34-5 plays for 34 yards and a field goal
35-10 plays for 23 yards and a punt
13-miracle pass for 87 yard td

average O field position=21.3
average O drive=24.2
number of possesions=11
3 and outs=5
O Turnovers=0
D Turnovers=3
Points gained by D turnovers=0
Opponents Points gained by O turnovers=0
Top=26:33
Top gained by turnovers=2:40
1:27 Fumble-Den44-3 and out for -1 yard
1:13 Int-Den20-3 and out for 8 yards
00:00 Int Tony Sheftler pick with no time left.

Without the Ds help O points = 12

Cle-

20- 7 plays for 23 yards and a punt
Clev 9- 3 plays for 9 yards and a td
19- 13 plays for 76 yards and a field goal
20-5 plays for 10 yards and a punt
6-16 plays for 73 yards and a missed field goal
Cle38- 6 plays for 18 yards and a field goal
12-9 plays for 69 yards and a missed field goal
18-6 plays for a 82 yard td drive
33-3 plays for a 67 yard td drive
31-9 plays for 37 yards. stopped

average O field Position= 31.2
average O drive= 46.4
number of possessions=10
3 and outs=0
O Turnover=0
D Turnovers=3
Points gained by D turnovers=10
Opponents Points gained by O turnovers=0
Top=32:44
Top gained by D turnovers=4:14
1:11 Fumble- Clev 9- 3 plays for 9 yards and a td
2:55 Fumble- Cle38- 6 plays for 18 yards and a field goal
:08 Int at Den 6 Orton takes a knee

Without the Ds help O points = 17

Oak-

31-12 plays 68 yard drive stopped at the 1 for not points
Oak 23- 6 plays for 23 yards and a td
Oak 34- 3 and out for 4 yards and a field goal
21-11 plays for 76 and a field goal
20-8 plays for 80 yard td drive
6-16 plays for a 91 yard drive for a field goal
oak 49- 3 and out for 1 yard
44- 3 and out for 5 yards
oak 44-clock ran out 26 yards

average O Field position= 41.5
average O drive=41.3
number of O Possesions=9
3 and outs=3
O Turnovers=1
D Turnovers=3
Opponents Points gained by O turnovers=0
Fumble at Den 16 luckily the D forced another TO
Points gained by D turnovers=13
Top=36:15
Top gained by D turnovers=11:42
2:46 Int at Oak 23- 6 plays for 23 yards and a td
:48 Int at Oak 34- 3 and out for 4 yards and a field goal
8:08 Fumble at Den 6-16 plays for a 91 yard drive for a field goal
Without the Ds help O points =10

Dal-

7- 3 and out gain of 0
30- 3 and out gain of 0
20- 6 plays for 20 yards and a punt
Dal 9- 1 play for a 9 yard td
12-9 plays for 36 yard and a punt
21-fumble, but d saves us and gets a pick at the 6
6-7 plays for 39 yards and a punt
8-12 plays for 62 yards and stuffed on 4th and 1
37-6 plays for 20 yards and a punt
25- 7 plays for 75 yards and a field goal
27- 3 play 73 yard td drive

average O field position=25.8
average O drive = 30.3
number of possessions=11
3 and outs=2
O Turnovers=1
D Turnovers=2
Opponents Points gained by O turnovers=0
-Fumble at Den26 luckly the D saves us again and gets an Int
Points gained by D turnovers=7
Top=26:53
Top gained by D turnovers=4:01
:06 Fumble at Dal 9- 1 play for a 9 yard td
3:55 Int a Den 6-7 plays for 39 yards and a punt
Without the Ds help O points =10

Ne-

20- 9 plays for 50 yards and a missed field goal
19- 3 plays for 16 yards and fumble
20- 3 and out for 9 yards
38- 5 plays for 22 yards and a punt
10- 10 play 79 yard td drive
28- 12 plays for 66 yards and a field goal
30- 8 plays for 28 yards and a punt
2- 12 play 98 yard td drive
26- 3 and out for 6 yards
Ne 45- 3 and out for 5 yards
20- 11 plays for 58 yards and field goal

average O field position=24.3
average O drive=39.7
number of possessions=11
3 and outs=3
O Turnovers=1
D Turnovers=0
Opponents Points gained by O turnovers=3
-Fumble at Den 43.4 plays for 8 yards for a Field goal.
Points gained by D turnovers=0
Top=36:29
Top gained by D turnovers=0
Without the Ds help O points =20

SD-

26- 7 plays for 18 yards and a punt
22- 13 plays for 62 yards and a field goal
25- 6 plays for 41 yards and a missed field goal
26- 4 and out for 28 yards
23- 9 play 77 yard td drive
SD 47-10 plays for 36 yards and a field goal
29- 8 plays for 32 yards and a punt
38- 5 play 62 yard td drive
45- clock ran out

average O field position=31.8
average O drive= 44.5 didnt add the last drive
number of possessions= 9
3 and out= 0
O Turnovers=0
D Turnovers=1
Opponents Points gained by O turnovers=0
Points gained by D turnovers=3 royal returns gave 14 in this one
Top=30:43
Top gained by D turnovers=3:38
3:38 Fumble at SD 47-10 plays for 36 yards and a field goal
Without the Ds and sp help O points =17

Balt-
31- 3 and out for 1 yard
20- 3 and out for 3 yards
20- 4 plays for 11 yards and fumbled at our own 23
12- 4 and out for 17 yards
24- 4 and out for 6 yards
19- 11 plays for 36 yards and a punt
14- 10 plays for a 86 yard td. got a little help with 3 penalties
22- 3 and out for 8 yards
20- 5 and out 24 yards
24- 3 and out for -10 yards
20- 9 plays for 52 yards clock runs out

average O field position=20.5
average O drive= 21.2
number of possessions=11
3 and out= 4
O Turnovers=1
D Turnovers=0
Opponents Points gained by O turnovers=3
Fumble at Den 23 for a 3 and out field goal
Points gained by D turnovers=0
Top=26:23
Top gained by D turnovers=0
Without the Ds help O points =7

Pits-
22- 9 plays for 56 yards and a field goal
18- 8 plays for 30 yards and a punt
23- 4 plays for 8 yards and a pick 6
21- 10 plays for 28 yards and a punt
16- 7 plays for 29 yards and a punt
40- 4 and out for 15 yards
10- 4 and out for 24 yards
33- 3 and for 3 yards
25- 2 plays for O yards and Int
26- 3 and out for 0 yards
20- 4 plays for 17 yards and Int

average O field position=23
average O drive= 19
number of possessions= 11
3 and out= 2
O Turnovers=2
D Turnovers=2
Opponents Points gained by O turnovers=7
-Int at Den25. 3 plays for a td
-Int at Den 40. Kneel down
Offensive Points gained by D turnovers=0 D got the 7
Top=26:57
Top gained by D turnovers=2:22
00:00 54 yard fumble returned for a td
2:22 int at the Den10- 4 and out for 24 yards
Without the Ds help O points = -4 pick 6 included

Wash-

33- 4 plays for 67 yard td drive
40- 4 plays for 21 yards and a fumble
25- 1 play for 75 yard td
15- 5 and out for 1 yard
31- 3 and out for 0 yards
11- 18 plays for 82 yards and a field goal
SIMMS IN
28- 9 plays for 24 yards and a punt
31- 3 and out for -5 yards
40- 3 plays for 14 yards and a Int
27- 3 and out for 0 yards
26- 3 and out for -7 yards

average O field position=27.9
average O drive= all 24.7, Orton only =41, Simms only=5.2 lol
number of possessions=11
3 and out= all 5,Orton only=1, Simms only=4
O Turnovers=2
D Turnovers=0
Opponents Points gained by O turnovers=7
-fumble at the was31. 3 and out
-Int at was 40.11 plays for a td
Offensive Points gained by D turnovers=0
Top=24:17
Top gained by D turnovers=0
Without the Ds help O points =17

SD-

SIMMS STARTING

26- 8 plays for 57 yards and a fumble
20- 3 and out for -7 yards
20- 3 and out for -1 yard
ORTON IN
38- 4 plays for 58 yards and a fumble into the endzone
45- 1 play for an int
36- 9 plays for 59 yards and a field goal
20- 7 plays for 40 yards and stopped on 4th down
20- 3 and out for -7 yards
18- 11 plays for 63 yards and stopped on 4th down
20- 3 and out
20- 1 play for 9 yards out of time


average O field position= 25.7
average O drive= all 26.2. Orton only=30.4 Simms only= 16.3 Didnt count last drive of the game
number of possessions= 11
3 and out= 4
O Turnovers=3
D Turnovers=0
Opponents Points gained by O turnovers=7
-fumbled at our 31.9 play 69 yard td drive
-fumbled and touchbacked to our 20.3 and out punt
-int at sd 42.4 and out
Offensive Points gained by D turnovers=0
Top=22:08
Top gained by D turnovers=0
Without the Ds help O points =3

Nyg-
14- 3 and out for 6 yards
16- 13 plays for 76 yards and a field goal
29- 12 plays for 57 yards and a field goal
Nyg38- 4 plays for 38 yards and a td
49- 6 plays for 20 yards and a field goal
11- 4 plays for 9 yards and a knee
21- 5 plays for 50 yards and a int
25- 5 and out for 16 yards
36- 8 plays for 64 yards and a td
Nyg36- 9 plays for 30 yards and a field goal
Nyg48- 3 and out for 5 yards


average O field position=34.4
average O drive= 33.7
number of possessions= 11
3 and out= 2
O Turnovers=1
D Turnovers=3
Opponents Points gained by O turnovers=3
-int at nyg40. 9 plays for a field goal
Offensive Points gained by D turnovers=10
Top=35:30
Top gained by D turnovers=6:52
2:00 Fumbled at Nyg38- 4 plays for 38 yards and a td
3:59 Fumbled at Nyg36- 9 plays for 30 yards and a field goal
:53Int at Nyg 48
Without the Ds help O points =16

Kc-

33- 5 plays for 53 yards and int in the endzone
37- 8 plays for a 63 yard td drive
21- 4 and out for 11 yards
20- 8 plays for a 80 yard td drive
39- 3 and out for 4 yards
35- 5 plays for 14 yards and a fumble
kc26- 3 and out for 1 yard and field goal
kc21- 4 plays for 21 yards and a td
kc42- 5 plays for 22 yards and a field goal
24- 3 and out for 3 yards
4- 2 plays for 3 yards and a fumble
20- 7 play 80 yard td drive
kc41- 4 and out for 21 yards and a field goal
5-10 plays for 39 yards to run out the clock


average O field position=36.2
average O drive= 29.6
number of possessions= 14
3 and out= 3
O Turnovers=3
D Turnovers=3
Opponents Points gained by O turnovers=10
-int touchbacked to kc20. 3 and out
-fumble at the 50.4 and out for a field goal.
-fumble at our 4. Easy td
Offensive Points gained by D turnovers=10, D scored 7 by themselves.
Top=35:55
Top gained by D turnovers=4:31
1:50 int at kc21- 4 plays for 21 yards and a td
2:41 int at kc42-5 plays for 22 yards and a field goal
00:00 30 yard fumble return for a td
Without the Ds help O points =27 not giving the fake field goal eventhough it set up our O with awesome field position

Ind-

11- 3 and out for 7 yards
20- 7 plays for 39 yards stopped on 4th down
13- 5 and out for 23 yards
20- 12 plays for a 80 yard td drive
46- 3 and out for 9 yards
37- 4 plays for 18 yards time runs out
19- 3 and out for 8 yards
34- 5 and out for 21 yards
Ind37- 6 plays for 17 yards and Int
43- 7 plays for 34 yards and a missed field goal
Ind24- 4 and out for 14 yards and a field goal
32- 11 plays for a 68 yard td drive
20- 4 and out for 8 yards. stopped on 4th down


average O field position=33.3
average O drive= 26.6
number of possessions= 13
3 and out= 3
O Turnovers= 1
D Turnovers= 3
Opponents Points gained by O turnovers=0
-int at ind 14. 3 and out
Offensive Points gained by D turnovers=3
Top=31:27
Top gained by D turnovers=4:07
:29 int 37- 4 plays for 18 time runs out
2:36 int at Ind37- 6 plays for 17 yards and Int
1:02 Ind24- 4 and out for 14 yards and a field goal
Without the Ds help O points =13

Oak-

35-10 plays for 60 yards and a field goal
Oak41- 4 and out for 16 yards and a field goal
39- 5 and out for 20 yards
20- 4 and out for 19 yards
20- 3 and out for 4 yards
20- 3 and out for 8 yards
20- 12 plays for 47 yards and a field goal
50- 8 plays for a 50 yard td drive
1- 3 and out for 9 yards
19- 9 plays for 78 yards and a field goal
24- 3 and out -9 yards
22- 4 plays for 32 yards out of time

average O field position=27.4
average O drive= 27.8
number of possessions=12
3 and out= 4
O Turnovers=0
D Turnovers=2
Opponents Points gained by O turnovers=0
Offensive Points gained by D turnovers=10
Top=28:34
Top gained by D turnovers=6:40
2:57 int at Oak41- 4 and out for 16 yards and a field goal
3:43 fumbled at the 50- 8 plays for a 50 yard td drive
Without the Ds help O points =9

Phi-

32-3 and out for 0 yards
32-3 and out for 1 yard
22-3 and out for 7 yards
30-12 play drive for a 70 yard td drive
30-3 and out for 7 yards
25- halftime
50- 9 plays for 35 yards and a field goal
23-6 plays for37 yards and a Orton Int
Phi25-5 plays for 25 yards and a td
Phi16-2 plays for 16 yards and a td
Phi49-3 and out for -3 yards
47-3 and out for 8 yards
44-7 plays for 28 yards and a field goal
9-3 and out for 8 yards

average O field position=42.6
average O drive= 18.3
number of possessions= 13 not counting halftime drive.
3 and out= 7
O Turnovers=1
D Turnovers=3
Opponents Points gained by O turnovers=0
Offensive Points gained by D and Sp turnovers=10

Top=29:17
Top gained by D turnovers=6:31
1:49- 3 and out
4:21 -Champ int at 50. 9 plays for a field goal
:21-fumble recovered by reid at Phi16.2 plays for a td
Without the Ds help O points =17

Kc-

20- 3 and out for 9 yards
16- 9 plays for 32 yards and a punt
47- 3 and out for 2 yards
5- 10 plays for a 95 yard td drive
14- 4 and out for 35 yards
19- 11 play drive for 92 yards and a field goal
27- 4 play 73 yard drive for a td
24- pick 6 game was Kc20-17Den before it
27- 5 plays out for 29 yards
Kc3- 3 plays for 3 yards and a td
15- pick 6
20- 6 plays and out for 20 yards
23- 11 plays for 54 yards and a pick
7- 6 plays for 54 yards out of time


average O field position=25.7
average O drive= 36.5
number of possessions= 14
3 and out= 2
O Turnovers=3
D Turnovers=2
Opponents Points gained by O turnovers=14
Offensive Points gained by D turnovers=14
Top=33:03
Top gained by D turnovers=5:19
4:27-int at Den5 10 plays for a td
:52-Law with a pick to KC3. Easy td
Without the Ds help O points = -4 counting pick 6s

Without the Ds help our O is nothing. Even the last 3 games they D did good enough to win the games if they had a compentent offense behind them.

Denver Offensive Drives in 2008
DEN 41 Oak 14
TD
D forces a fumble at Den 17. Denver punts
Field Goal
TD
Punt
TD
Field Goal
TD
TD
Knee

41-0=41

Den 39 SD 38
Punt
TD
TD
TD great field position at the 48
Field goal
TD
Punt
Punt
Jay picked off at SDs 3. SD scores with a 66 yard td
TD and 2 point conversion to win game

39-0=39

Den 34 NO 32

TD
TD
Denver forces fumbler and returns it for a TD
Cutler picked at the 50 returned to the 36. TD NO
Field Goal
Saftey-D made a goaline stand at 1 and Hall got tackled in endzone with 27 seconds left in the half.
Punt
TD
Field Goal
Fumble Scheffler at the NO 8
Punt

34-9=25

Den 19 KC 33

Fumble! Royal at Den 26.Kc gets field goal
Punt
TD
Fumble! Marshall at Den 39 then returned to the 2. TD KC
Missed 28 yard field goal
Field Goal
Field Goal
Cutler picked at 50 than ran back to the 43.Kc fumbles at Den 45.
Cutler picked at kc 21 then returned to Den 47, Kc punts
Punt
Field Goal
Field Goal
Out of time

19-0=19

Den 16 TB 13

Punt
Punt
Field Goal
Punt
Field Goal
Punt
TD
Field Goal
D intercepts ball then fumbles it back
Punt
Runs out Clock

16-0=16

DEN 17 JAC 24

TD
D forces a fumble at Den 42. Cutler scrambles for 2 yards and fumbles it back.field goal jags
Cutlers long pass to Marshall picked off at Jags 6. Jags punt
Fumble! Marshall at the 6 then returned to jags 25.TD jags
Stopped on 4th and 1 on Jags 30.Pittman up the middle
D forces a fumble at Den 27. We punt
Field Goal
Punt
Punt
TD great return by shoebomber set us up at Jac 37
Punt

17-0=17

Den 7 Ne 41

Fumble! Andre Hall fumbles ball at NE 32.NE gets field goal
Fumble! Andre Hall fumbles ball at NE 38 they end up with at our 22 after return and penalties.NE gets field goal
Punt
Punt
Cutler picked off on a long pass intended for D. Jackson at Ne 16.TD for NE
Ramsey in
Fumble! Ramsey sacked at NE 44.Ball at 50. halftime
Cutler in
Punt
Cutler picked at NE 26.NE end up getting it at the 20 after penalites.TD NE
TD
Punt
Punt

7-0=7

Mia 26 Den 17

Cutler picked at Den 34. Miami Field goal
Punt
Cutler throws a pick 6 32 yards.
TD Royal with a great return to the 5
Punt
Punt
Punt
Field Goal
Missed 49 yard field goal
D intercepts ball at Den 29
77 yard td pass to Marshall nullified. offense pi
Cutler picked a few plays later at Den 44. Miami gets field goal
TD

17-7=10

Den 34 Cle 30

Missed 38 yard field goal
TD
Punt
Cutler picked off trying to pass to Marshall at the Den 33. TD Browns
Field Goal
halftime O was at Cle 45
Field Goal
TD 93 yards to Royal
D forces a fumble at Den 38. 28 yard td pass to Graham
TD

34-7=27

Den 24 Atl 20

TD
Punt
Missed 49 yard field goal
Punt
Punt
TD
D intercepts ball at Den 38. Den get Field goal
TD
Ran clock out

24-3=21

Oak 31 Den 10

Fumble! Bad handoff at Oak 7. Oak punts
Missed 47 yard field goal
Field goal.
Punt 89 yard td return by oak
Missed 43 yard field goal
TD
Punt
Cutler picked at Den 40. TD Oak
Stopped at Oak 38

10-0=10

Den 34 Nyj 17

Punt at the Nyj 39
D Forces a fumble and its returned 29 yards for a td by V.Fox. but of course next play Nyj get a 59 td.
TD Royal with a 59 yard td reception
Field goal
Punt
D Intercepts ball at Den 32. TD broncos
Field Goal
Punt
Hillis 14 yard Td nullified by holding.
Cutler picked in the endzone a few plays later.
Punt
TD pass to Stokley for 36 yards
Punt
Clock ran out

34-14=20

Den 24 KC 17

Punt
Cutler throws a 27 yard pick 6
TD Hillis with a 18 yard td
TD pass to Marshall
Field Goal
Missed 48 yard field goal
TD pass to Marshall
ran clock out

24-7=17

So our 2008 O averages about 20.5 points a game without the help of the D.

broncolife
09-06-2011, 05:25 PM
Because he wasn't Cutler....Even though they're basically interchangeable at QB.

Because he reminded me of Griese

HAT
09-06-2011, 05:51 PM
I disagree. Denver was run on 531 times last season; only the Buffalo Bills were run on more (571).

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/rushing/sort/rushingAttempts/position/defense

However, Denver was only passed on 502 times, which is tied for 5th least in the NFL.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/passing/sort/passingAttempts/position/defense

Last I checked, you can't get an interception or a sack when the other team is running the ball on you. And other teams will run on you more when they are ahead...ie your offense is playing poorly and not scoring points.

Therefore, your point is invalid.

jhzz tried to bring this up earlier but he's a douche so I usually just ignore him.

You're just talking football so I'll address it. In a vaccum, that theory could hold some water.....However, the stats don't bear it out.

First of all....
The Chargers were thrown on the 3rd least last year (Less than Denver) and managed 16 picks (To Denver's 9).

The Titans were thrown on more than anybody....And had 17 picks. So the team thrown on the most had 1 more pick than the team thrown on 30th most. And the numbers all over the board in between so that theory holds no water with me.

Secondly,
It's a false assumption to say that teams ran more on Denver because they were always ahead and just trying to kill clock. Wrong. They ran because they could pick up 4.7 a pop on Denver.....Tied for 2nd worst. The run defense flat out sucked and nobody here will say otherwise. That's why Denver was run on more.

Third,
Turn that argument around. If Denver's D faced the 2nd most rushing attempts, how come they didn't lead the league in forced fumbles (they were mid pack).

So again, yes Denver wasn't thrown on very much and yes that *could* lead to less INT's....and yes the offense could share some blame by trailing often and allowing teams to run out clock.

Or.....The defense sucked, was always behind, never got picks because there was NO pass rush. couldn't stop the run, couldn't force fumbles and gave up TWENTY-NINE PPG because THEY sucked.

Isn't that easier to believe than the fact that Orton's offense was about 5 points below the median 3rd down % ?

The 9ers had a worse 3rd down % than Denver and yet there defense gave up 21.6 PPG.

You guys are seriously reaching if you think the offense had more than a gnat's ass to do with last years defensive atrocity.

HAT
09-06-2011, 05:52 PM
Also, let me be clear that I fully recognize the defense sucked, and I am not claiming that the sole reason their stats were terrible was just because the offense sucked too. But it does have a large impact.

If by large you mean minute than I agree. :thumbs:

Broncobiv
09-06-2011, 06:02 PM
So Orton can hang onto a lead as long as the defense is playing well, and the Broncos win most of the time. But if the defense is a little weak that day, then Orton plays poor to average, and most of the time, they still lose.

Forgive me if I'd like our starting QB to be able to bring the team back from a deficit and turn it into a win! Not just maintain AVERAGE STATS while still LOSING!

Kyle Orton is not a WINNER...he is a MAINTAINER.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
09-06-2011, 06:05 PM
So Orton can hang onto a lead as long as the defense is playing well, and the Broncos win most of the time. But if the defense is a little weak that day, then Orton plays poor to average, and most of the time, they still lose.

Forgive me if I'd like our starting QB to be able to bring the team back from a deficit and turn it into a win! Not just maintain AVERAGE STATS while still LOSING!

Kyle Orton is not a WINNER...he is a MAINTAINER.

You realize you can change the name "Orton" to ANY other quarterback's name in your little rant and it ends the same way, right?

PS: The defense wasn't "a little weak" last year. They were ****ing terrible.

HAT
09-06-2011, 06:14 PM
But if the defense is a little weak that day

I long for the sight. :thumbs:

Broncobiv
09-06-2011, 06:30 PM
You realize you can change the name "Orton" to ANY other quarterback's name in your little rant and it ends the same way, right?
No, my "little rant" does not end the same way by putting ANY other QB's name in there. Some QB's are so good that they can actually overcome a poor defense and still win the game for their team. (Just like some defenses are so good, that they can overcome poor play by their QB and still win the game.)

Orton is not one of those QB's.

PS: The defense wasn't "a little weak" last year. They were ****ing terrible.
I long for the sight. :thumbs:

Yes, I agree that the Denver defense was bloody horrible last year. But that does not change the fact that Orton is incapable of pulling his team to victory on a day when his defense is not helping out the cause at all.

Orton NEEDS the defense to be ON, otherwise we're all ****ed.

Rolandftw
09-06-2011, 06:40 PM
No, my "little rant" does not end the same way by putting ANY other QB's name in there. Some QB's are so good that they can actually overcome a poor defense and still win the game for their team. (Just like some defenses are so good, that they can overcome poor play by their QB and still win the game.)

Orton is not one of those QB's.



He's not an elite QB obviously. There are some QB's that can take their team on their back. But those QB's aren't for trade, or available in free agency. Denver's best chance to get one is to obviously be the worse team in the NFL, and net Andrew Luck. Don't see that happening, no matter who they put at QB this season. And even if you have one of the best QB's in the league, you still need a very good to great defense to compete for a championship (Rams probably being an exception to this)

I dont think too many people are suggesting he is a top five QB or anything, but with a very good defense he could be somewhere in the 11-15 range easy.

broncosteven
09-06-2011, 06:57 PM
...


So yeah, we know what Orton is.

A guy who can win games at an incredible clip with a semi-competent defense. .833 WP

A guy who can absolutely take care of the ball with a semi competent defense. 17 TDs in 12 games to only 4 INTs.

A guy who's going to lose a few coin flips in close games where the defense did their jobs.

A guy who is for the most part still going to take care of the ball when the defense is sucking (16-8 TD/INT in =/> 24 PPG defensive performances)

A guy who will occasionally **** the bed and be the direct cause of the defense sucking.

Is John Fox a better game day coach than McD?
Will Denver's YPC be better under Fox than it was under McD?
Will Denver's D be better under Fox/Allen than it was under McD/Nolan/Wink?
With the return/addition of VonDoom?

If you think the answer is yes to all of the above than there is no reason to think that Denver can't win 10 games with a healthy Orton under center.

PS. This is not a Tebow thread. I like him too and want him to start when and if the playoffs are out of reach. I also wanted Orton traded pre-draft but the lockout screwed that pooch. I also don't want Orton extended unless something crazy happens like a 13-3 season and a deep playoff run that can largely be attributed to Orton himself.

The bold part is kinda what I have been saying since they traded Cutler for Orton.

Orton is the kind of guy you want on a rebuilding team to stabilize the offense, get plays called, protect the ball, and keep the game close.

He has a nice touch on his deep ball (i.e. CiDtL) and can dink and dunk a D apart when protected.

What he can't seem to do: is elevate the team around him, be counted on late in games for a drive to win or put the game away, get out of his own way.

I agree that if Orton plays very well we could be a 10 win team. I just don't think he will healthy all year (or not dinged to the point that it impacts his play). It remains to be seen if he can be consistent enough to be a playoff bound QB.

cutthemdown
09-06-2011, 06:58 PM
I disagree. Denver was run on 531 times last season; only the Buffalo Bills were run on more (571).

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/rushing/sort/rushingAttempts/position/defense

However, Denver was only passed on 502 times, which is tied for 5th least in the NFL.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/passing/sort/passingAttempts/position/defense

Last I checked, you can't get an interception or a sack when the other team is running the ball on you. And other teams will run on you more when they are ahead...ie your offense is playing poorly and not scoring points.

Therefore, your point is invalid.

You are nuts. People ran on us because we could not stop the run period. Why pass when you can run? Had nothing to do with being in the lead except that the defense could not stop anyone.

Broncobiv
09-06-2011, 07:09 PM
He's not an elite QB obviously. There are some QB's that can take their team on their back. But those QB's aren't for trade, or available in free agency
What if they're already on the roster? :tebow: Heh, I'm certainly not ready to anoint Tebow as one of the best QB's in the league (I'm not that delusional). But at this point, he is somewhat of an unknown.

We gotta give the kid a chance. Build a playbook around him and see what he can do for a full season or two. If he sucks, he sucks. But we need to know what he is capable of.

We know what Orton's ceiling is (if we have a top-5 defense, we MIGHT make it into the 2nd round of the playoffs!!). We do not know what Tebow's ceiling is (maybe he CAN take a team onto his back and haul them to victory). Who knows??

errand
09-06-2011, 07:12 PM
You are nuts. People ran on us because we could not stop the run period. Why pass when you can run? Had nothing to do with being in the lead except that the defense could not stop anyone.

Exactly..only 3 things can happen when you throw the ball and two of them aren't good....when opposing teams got the lead, they ran the ball..it was both successful and safer for them

HAT
09-06-2011, 08:04 PM
Orton is the kind of guy you want on a rebuilding team to stabilize the offense, get plays called, protect the ball, and keep the game close.



And that's exactly why he is starting while the team rebuilds the defense & OL.

I think it was Cut' who said Tebow would make it harder on our own defense and I agree. Let Orton bridge the gap while EFX gets every unit back into at least the upper half of the league....Hand Tebow the keys next year and life will be a heckuva lot easier on him. Not to mention the whole no labor strife, full OTA's, etc.

But by all means, get him on the field some this year too.

AZorange1
09-06-2011, 09:06 PM
<iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/18KQ2pBdd_Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

NUFF SAID:thumbs:

Perry1977
09-06-2011, 11:37 PM
You are nuts. People ran on us because we could not stop the run period. Why pass when you can run? Had nothing to do with being in the lead except that the defense could not stop anyone.

LOL, I like how you don't comment on my post regarding you...

Anyways, we can agree to disagree, but the fact is the offense didn't help the defense out at all. Our offense sucked and our defense sucked, and those things don't float around in a vacuum. Yes, they ran on us because they could, I didn't say the ONLY reason we got ran on a lot is because other teams were ahead. You guys take things to extremes.

Did I say that Orton was the reason the defense sucked? No, but you said I did.

Did I say that the only reason teams ran on Denver was because other teams were already ahead? No, but again, you said I did. My point was: when teams are running the ball, you don't get interceptions and sacks. Pretty straightforward, eh?

My point is simply this: the defense's ranking is worse because our offense struggled on third downs and in the red zone. How much worse is of course the question, but I believe it to be significant. Am I saying we have a good defense? No. Our defense was really bad...but so was our offense and the defense should not be taking all the blame. The whole team was bad.

But if you have some axe to grind because you are an Orton/Tebow or whatever fanboy, you aren't prepared to listen to logic anyways.

Have a good night.

Rolandftw
09-07-2011, 01:09 AM
What if they're already on the roster? :tebow: Heh, I'm certainly not ready to anoint Tebow as one of the best QB's in the league (I'm not that delusional). But at this point, he is somewhat of an unknown.

We gotta give the kid a chance. Build a playbook around him and see what he can do for a full season or two. If he sucks, he sucks. But we need to know what he is capable of.

We know what Orton's ceiling is (if we have a top-5 defense, we MIGHT make it into the 2nd round of the playoffs!!). We do not know what Tebow's ceiling is (maybe he CAN take a team onto his back and haul them to victory). Who knows??

But teams don't have a "season or two," of trial by fire to find out if a player "sucks." It's not in a coaches or gm's best interest either. It's easy to say as a fan that we're willing to give Tebow a chance, and if we go 4-12 again "oh well." 4-12 again might get Elway and Fox fired. At the very least it would put them on the hot seat.

And we still wouldn't likely know anything about Tebow. His fans would just brush it off as it being the first year of a new coach, and a limited off season, and a new offensive and defensive scheme. Some might even say Tebow was being set up to fail.

If anything, Orton is being set up to fail in being the starter in the last year of his contract when the team has an entirely new coaching staff. Everybody keeps saying that they know for sure what kind of QB Orton is. How do we know this? We haven't had a top defense or running game in years, so we don't know how the team would perform in that situation.

I want Tebow to be successful but why must we give Tebow a chance (and by chance, I'm assuming you don't mean competing and winning the #1 QB job but being given the #1 contending job)? Because he's a first round draft pick? Because a bunch of Broncos fans bought Tebow jerseys?

Why not give the job to Adam Weber? Maybe he's the next Kurt Warner, but he just needs a year or two of him playing on the field for us to know if he sucks or not...

jhns
09-07-2011, 06:24 AM
jhzz tried to bring this up earlier but he's a douche so I usually just ignore him.

You're just talking football so I'll address it. In a vaccum, that theory could hold some water.....However, the stats don't bear it out.

First of all....
The Chargers were thrown on the 3rd least last year (Less than Denver) and managed 16 picks (To Denver's 9).

The Titans were thrown on more than anybody....And had 17 picks. So the team thrown on the most had 1 more pick than the team thrown on 30th most. And the numbers all over the board in between so that theory holds no water with me.

Secondly,
It's a false assumption to say that teams ran more on Denver because they were always ahead and just trying to kill clock. Wrong. They ran because they could pick up 4.7 a pop on Denver.....Tied for 2nd worst. The run defense flat out sucked and nobody here will say otherwise. That's why Denver was run on more.

Third,
Turn that argument around. If Denver's D faced the 2nd most rushing attempts, how come they didn't lead the league in forced fumbles (they were mid pack).

So again, yes Denver wasn't thrown on very much and yes that *could* lead to less INT's....and yes the offense could share some blame by trailing often and allowing teams to run out clock.

Or.....The defense sucked, was always behind, never got picks because there was NO pass rush. couldn't stop the run, couldn't force fumbles and gave up TWENTY-NINE PPG because THEY sucked.

Isn't that easier to believe than the fact that Orton's offense was about 5 points below the median 3rd down % ?

The 9ers had a worse 3rd down % than Denver and yet there defense gave up 21.6 PPG.

You guys are seriously reaching if you think the offense had more than a gnat's ass to do with last years defensive atrocity.

LOL

They didn't pass nearly as much on us but that can't be the reason we are that bad in stats you only get when they pass!

At least the logic is on par with the rest of your posts.

Beantown Bronco
09-07-2011, 06:31 AM
Forgive me if I'd like our starting QB to be able to bring the team back from a deficit and turn it into a win!

Someone missed the 2009 season.

TheReverend
09-07-2011, 06:45 AM
Someone missed the 2009 season.

....Oh please

2KBack
09-07-2011, 06:49 AM
LOL, I like how you don't comment on my post regarding you...

Anyways, we can agree to disagree, but the fact is the offense didn't help the defense out at all. Our offense sucked and our defense sucked, and those things don't float around in a vacuum. Yes, they ran on us because they could, I didn't say the ONLY reason we got ran on a lot is because other teams were ahead. You guys take things to extremes.

Did I say that Orton was the reason the defense sucked? No, but you said I did.

Did I say that the only reason teams ran on Denver was because other teams were already ahead? No, but again, you said I did. My point was: when teams are running the ball, you don't get interceptions and sacks. Pretty straightforward, eh?

My point is simply this: the defense's ranking is worse because our offense struggled on third downs and in the red zone. How much worse is of course the question, but I believe it to be significant. Am I saying we have a good defense? No. Our defense was really bad...but so was our offense and the defense should not be taking all the blame. The whole team was bad.

But if you have some axe to grind because you are an Orton/Tebow or whatever fanboy, you aren't prepared to listen to logic anyways.

Have a good night.

Chicago must have had the greatest defense of all time then because they were right there with Denver for 3rd down pct

Beantown Bronco
09-07-2011, 06:50 AM
....Oh please

Look, I realize the Cincy game was a fluke play, and many will try to discredit Orton's role in the Dallas game and say it was all Marshall....even though they were driving down the field before that sweet play....but the New England and San Diego games were come from behind victories and things of beauty.

Cito Pelon
09-07-2011, 06:54 AM
The only stat that matters:

"Orton has lost eight of nine, 14 of 17 and 17 of his past 22 starts."

Lost them all by himself, did he?

I'm sorry, but it requires an incredible fool to use this quote . . . and to top it off say it's the only stat that matters.

BroncoInferno
09-07-2011, 06:57 AM
many will try to discredit Orton's role in the Dallas game and say it was all Marshall.

If that had been a five yard slant or something, that argument might wash. But we are talking about a ball that had to travel 25-30 yards in the air. Orton gets full credit for that.

TheReverend
09-07-2011, 07:12 AM
Look, I realize the Cincy game was a fluke play,

lol good

and many will try to discredit Orton's role in the Dallas game and say it was all Marshall....even though they were driving down the field before that sweet play....

...driving down the field? It was 2 plays into the drive and a 51 yard play where he broke like a bazillion tackles.

but the New England and San Diego games were come from behind victories and things of beauty.

I'll never say a bad word about that NE game. In fact, I've USED it to reference that he CAN play a lot better than this dog **** we've seen since.

Sadly that seems to have been McDaniels' Superbowl and he really can't play that well.

As for SD... we were down by 3 at half time and had the lead going into the 4th quarter, so you're being extremely liberal with "come from behind victories" in a game where special teams accounted for 1/2 of Denver's TDs.

TheReverend
09-07-2011, 07:18 AM
If that had been a five yard slant or something, that argument might wash. But we are talking about a ball that had to travel 25-30 yards in the air. Orton gets full credit for that.

Um... no.

49 yard line to 35

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009100410/2009/REG4/cowboys@broncos#menu=highlights&tab=analyze&analyze=playbyplay

Let's all keep making **** up though. Why not.

jhns
09-07-2011, 07:20 AM
Let's all keep making **** up though. Why not.

Only way to defend Ortons play.

Beantown Bronco
09-07-2011, 07:21 AM
...driving down the field? It was 2 plays into the drive and a 51 yard play where he broke like a bazillion tackles.

3 plays in, Rev. 22 yards covered before that play. And he only broke one tackle on that play.....at the 19 yard line, well within game winning field goal territory if they do nothing else in that drive.

<iframe width="560" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2nmDNnvErn4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

BroncoInferno
09-07-2011, 07:22 AM
Um... no.

49 yard line to 35

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009100410/2009/REG4/cowboys@broncos#menu=highlights&tab=analyze&analyze=playbyplay

Let's all keep making **** up though. Why not.

Cool. I remembered the precise distance wrong. The point is it wasn't some little dump off play where you don't give the QB any credit. It was a nice pass and Marshall made a great play on it.

TheReverend
09-07-2011, 07:24 AM
3 plays in, Rev. 22 yards covered before that play. And he only broke one tackle on that play.....at the 19 yard line, well within game winning field goal territory if they do nothing else in that drive.

<iframe width="560" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2nmDNnvErn4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

No way you wrote that with a straight face WHILE posting the video.

Seriously... NO WAY.

jhns
09-07-2011, 07:25 AM
Cool. I remembered the precise distance wrong. The point is it wasn't some little dump off play where you don't give the QB any credit. It was a nice pass and Marshall made a great play on it.

A nice throw to the CB standing in front of the receiver that had to stop for the underthrown ball and make an insane play on it...

TheReverend
09-07-2011, 07:28 AM
A nice throw to the CB standing in front of the receiver that had to stop for the underthrown ball and make an insane play on it...

It's one of the best individual efforts I've ever seen. When the camera flashes to Kyle after, even he has a "Holy **** that worked?!?!?!?" permagrin on his face

Beantown Bronco
09-07-2011, 07:29 AM
No way you wrote that with a straight face WHILE posting the video.

Seriously... NO WAY.

ooooookay. Let's simply take that off the table. We most likely win even if he simply dives at the feet of the first defender that gets within a few yards of him.

TheReverend
09-07-2011, 07:31 AM
ooooookay. Let's simply take that off the table. We most likely go to overtime even if he simply dives at the feet of the first defender that gets within a few yards of him.

Fixed...

alkemical
09-07-2011, 07:31 AM
Chicago must have had the greatest defense of all time then because they were right there with Denver for 3rd down pct

I'm gonna let you finish...but....

BroncoInferno
09-07-2011, 07:32 AM
A nice throw to the CB standing in front of the receiver that had to stop for the underthrown ball and make an insane play on it...

If you don't realize that QBs very often intentionally underthrow passes when they have man-to-man on the outside in order to allow the WR to catch the CB out of position, I don't know what to tell you.

jhns
09-07-2011, 07:34 AM
If you don't realize that QBs very often intentionally underthrow passes when they have man-to-man on the outside in order to allow the WR to catch the CB out of position, I don't know what to tell you.

LOL

Marshall had the corner beat by 10 yards... QBs intentionally let CBs get back into the play so they have a chance? Someone should explain to them that they are being idiots.

TheReverend
09-07-2011, 07:35 AM
If you don't realize that QBs very often intentionally underthrow passes when they have man-to-man on the outside in order to allow the WR to catch the CB out of position, I don't know what to tell you.

LOL

Nice try

Beantown Bronco
09-07-2011, 07:38 AM
Fixed...

I doubt Dallas would've gotten the ball back. And if they did, they would've had to drive the ball 40+ yds with no timeouts instead of two and a different style of defense than the one that allowed them to march down the field with ease after Marshall's TD.

BroncoInferno
09-07-2011, 07:40 AM
Whatever, fellas. You're right...he practically handed the ball off to Marshall in the backfield. Of course, if that had been Tebow on that drive, you'd be praising him. Since it's Orton, he doesn't get any credit.

TheReverend
09-07-2011, 07:41 AM
I doubt Dallas would've gotten the ball back. And if they did, they would've had to drive the ball 40+ yds with no timeouts instead of two and a different style of defense than the one that allowed them to march down the field with ease after Marshall's TD.

They had two timeouts to use, and also were within field goal range (the Denver TWENTY) in 30 seconds without using any.

So yeah. :wave:

TheReverend
09-07-2011, 07:42 AM
Whatever, fellas. You're right...he practically handed the ball off to Marshall in the backfield. Of course, if that had been Tebow on that drive, you'd be praising him. Since it's Orton, he doesn't get any credit.

You're so ****ing worthless it's absurd. Be quiet.

Bean and I are talking.

alkemical
09-07-2011, 07:42 AM
The only way we can solve this, is to sacrifice Tebow and Orton to the gods and see which one comes back from the dead.

The Zombie QB will lead us!

TheReverend
09-07-2011, 07:43 AM
The only way we can solve this, is to sacrifice Tebow and Orton to the gods and see which one comes back from the dead.

The Zombie QB will lead us!

I'd be up for it. Worst case is neither come back and Weber leads us to Luck.

jhns
09-07-2011, 07:43 AM
Whatever, fellas. You're right...he practically handed the ball off to Marshall in the backfield. Of course, if that had been Tebow on that drive, you'd be praising him. Since it's Orton, he doesn't get any credit.

But Tebow.... Cry .. cry... Cry some more.....

I call throws great when they are actually horrible! I is smart! Who cares about reality! Orton needs protection from those meanies on the mane....

alkemical
09-07-2011, 07:47 AM
I'd be up for it. Worst case is neither come back and Weber leads us to Luck.

If the gods agree, it will rain in the mid-atlantic/north east today - and the ceremony will commence on the eve of the next new moon. (freemason numerology of course dictated that)

TheReverend
09-07-2011, 07:49 AM
If the gods agree, it will rain in the mid-atlantic/north east today - and the ceremony will commence on the eve of the next new moon. (freemason numerology of course dictated that)

http://gifninja.com/animatedgifs/4566/mind-blown.gif

Beantown Bronco
09-07-2011, 07:49 AM
They had two timeouts to use, and also were within field goal range (the Denver TWENTY) in 30 seconds without using any.

So yeah. :wave:

True. I admit, it definitely could've gone that way again, but I just assume Nolan probably would've run things a little differently on that fluke fourth down play (and the previous three plays) by Dallas if we were up by 3 instead of 7 and it might've changed the whole play (and drive). But honestly, there's no real way to know what would've happened.

BroncoInferno
09-07-2011, 07:51 AM
You're so ****ing worthless it's absurd. Be quiet.

Bean and I are talking.

Hey, you quoted me first, then did your usually schtick where you act like a being colossal prick enhances your argument. Feel free to put me on ignore if you find my posts so "worthless." I won't lose any sleep.

TheReverend
09-07-2011, 07:58 AM
Hey, you quoted me first, then did your usually schtick where you act like a being colossal prick enhances your argument. Feel free to put me on ignore if you find my posts so "worthless." I won't lose any sleep.

Because all you do is make **** up?

You haven't made ANY factual statements in this discussion. None. All have been fallacies.

And then you twist it into a Tebow/Orton thing... sorry, it's not. It's just an Orton thing. And I'm not being unfair to him... a few posts ago I completely agreed with his performance vs NE and credited HIM for that win.

But I guess you don't know what that's like considering you just ride the current bandwagon every time...

http://orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3280659&postcount=91

^ How many games into Tebow's turn at QB will it be before you're praising him and trashing Orton, per your MO?

BroncoInferno
09-07-2011, 08:12 AM
Because all you do is make **** up?

You haven't made ANY factual statements in this discussion. None. All have been fallacies.

And then you twist it into a Tebow/Orton thing... sorry, it's not. It's just an Orton thing. And I'm not being unfair to him... a few posts ago I completely agreed with his performance vs NE and credited HIM for that win.

But I guess you don't know what that's like considering you just ride the current bandwagon every time...

http://orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3280659&postcount=91

^ How many games into Tebow's turn at QB will it be before you're praising him and trashing Orton, per your MO?

I haven't been trashing Tebow. I've stated repeatedly this offseason that my preference is for him to start. I simply don't see the need for it to devolve into "Orton sucks" type of hyperbole where we act like he's never made a single contribution to anyone, anywhere. Furthermore, I freely admit I'll change my mind from time to time on given a subject or player. So what? I changed my mind on Cutler BEFORE he was traded, and under the belief that he probably wouldn't be traded (like a lot of folks, I thought cooler heads would prevail). I was in his corner until he started acting like a unreasonable two year old. Also, I never trashed Plummer, so I'm not sure how it's my "MO" to trash our QBs when they leave or lose the starting job. Cutler is the only example, and for the reason already stated. And the board was pretty much split over the Cutler thing, so I'm not sure how it's "bandwagon hopping." But, anyway, like I said, feel free to put me on ignore

jhns
09-07-2011, 08:18 AM
Hey guys, did you know QBs throw it behind receivers that have their corner beat all the time? I have it on good authority that this is a good play by the QB. I get it in todays NFL. We can't have the defenders getting all sad by getting burned that bad. We need to think about their feelings and give them a chance!

Dedhed
09-07-2011, 09:21 AM
I just assume

Yeah, we know.

Beantown Bronco
09-07-2011, 09:30 AM
Give it a rest for once.

vancejohnson82
09-07-2011, 09:31 AM
Hey guys, did you know QBs throw it behind receivers that have their corner beat all the time? I have it on good authority that this is a good play by the QB. I get it in todays NFL. We can't have the defenders getting all sad by getting burned that bad. We need to think about their feelings and give them a chance!

uuummmmmm......What?

you do know that a back shoulder throw is extremely difficult

TheReverend
09-07-2011, 09:37 AM
uuummmmmm......What?

you do know that a back shoulder throw is extremely difficult

When it's actually a back shoulder throw, sure.

A "really ****ty throw" isn't that hard to execute though.

TheReverend
09-07-2011, 09:37 AM
Yeah, we know.

Give it a rest for once.

I lol'd. I like your guys' interaction.

jhns
09-07-2011, 09:40 AM
uuummmmmm......What?

you do know that a back shoulder throw is extremely difficult

Let me simplify this for Orton fans. You throw it behind the receiver when the corner is running with the receiver, or in front of him. You throw it to the outside shoulder when the corner is in front of, or on the inside, of the receiver. You throw it to the inside shoulder when the corner is to the outside of the receiver.

When the corner is running yards behind the receiver, you throw it in front of the receiver so that the corner doesn't have a play on the ball. A perfect throw would be hitting the receiver in stride. Why exactly would you want to let the corner back into the play in this situation? That doesn't even make a little bit of sense. A great throw by Orton would have been about ten yards further down field. He would have hit Marshall in stride, while the corner had zero play on the ball, and it would have given Marshall a couple steps before the safety was there.

Really though, how is this an argument? A receiver has a corner beat and is running in front of that corner. Now explain why it would ever be a good idea to throw behind the receiver, giving that corner a chance?

vancejohnson82
09-07-2011, 09:41 AM
Let me simplify this for Orton fans. You throw it behind the receiver when the corner is running with the receiver, or in front of him. You throw it to the outside shoulder when the corner is in front of, or on the inside, of the receiver. You throw it to the inside shoulder when the corner is to the outside of the receiver.

When the corner is running yards behind the receiver, you throw it in front of the receiver so that the corner doesn't have a play on the ball. A perfect throw would be hitting the receiver in stride. Why exactly would you want to let the corner back into the play in this situation? That doesn't even make a little bit of sense. A great throw by Orton would have been about ten yards further down field. He would have hit Marshall in stride, while the corner had zero play on the ball, and it would have given Marshall a couple steps before the safety was there.

Really though, how is this an argument? A receiver has a corner beat and is running in front of that corner. Now explain why it would ever be a good idea to throw behind the receiver, giving that corner a chance?

I was under the impression we were talking about the throw he made in the Pats game...the throw in the Cowboys game was obviously all Marshall

jhns
09-07-2011, 09:46 AM
I was under the impression we were talking about the throw he made in the Pats game...the throw in the Cowboys game was obviously all Marshall

I am just shocked that you don't know what is going on in a conversation before replying. Really, shocked...

vancejohnson82
09-07-2011, 09:52 AM
I am just shocked that you don't know what is going on in a conversation before replying. Really, shocked...

you are such a goddamn clown, dude...if you read the post its been going back and forth between the two games. Plus, I tend to just scan these horse**** threads where you guys trash Orton from any angle possible and complain about our football team. I'll be happy this Monday knowing that you are sitting on your couch in your crotchless pants and Tebow jersey, petting your 14 year old three-legged cat, drinking Mike's Hard Lemonade with a straw....ABSOLUTELY MISERABLE because Orton is out there

me....I'll be having a blast, high-fiving Broncos fans, banging bitches during commercial breaks and loving the start to football season

jhns
09-07-2011, 09:56 AM
you are such a goddamn clown, dude...if you read the post its been going back and forth between the two games. Plus, I tend to just scan these horse**** threads where you guys trash Orton from any angle possible and complain about our football team. I'll be happy this Monday knowing that you are sitting on your couch in your crotchless pants and Tebow jersey, petting your 14 year old three-legged cat, drinking Mike's Hard Lemonade with a straw....ABSOLUTELY MISERABLE because Orton is out there

me....I'll be having a blast, high-fiving Broncos fans, banging b****es during commercial breaks and loving the start to football season

It is pretty easy to see what was being talked about. You are right though, you do this all the time. I am the clown though. The guy that actually responds to what is being said.

Your little theory is great and all but it really just shows that you are a whiney little girl that has no clue what I think.

Also, LOL. As if you have real friends or girls interested in you. Women like men, not whiney little bitches.

TailgateNut
09-07-2011, 09:58 AM
you are such a goddamn clown, dude...if you read the post its been going back and forth between the two games. Plus, I tend to just scan these horse**** threads where you guys trash Orton from any angle possible and complain about our football team. I'll be happy this Monday knowing that you are sitting on your couch in your crotchless pants and Tebow jersey, petting your 14 year old three-legged cat, drinking Mike's Hard Lemonade with a straw....ABSOLUTELY MISERABLE because Orton is out there

me....I'll be having a blast, high-fiving Broncos fans, banging b****es during commercial breaks and loving the start to football season


OUT_****ING_STANDING!!!^5

I'll be at the game come hell or high water happy that **********s like Jhizz don't attend the games to ruin it for everyone else. The few that do make it to a game usually just whimper that their savior isn't on the field.

vancejohnson82
09-07-2011, 10:01 AM
It is pretty easy to see what was being talked about. You are right though, you do this all the time. I am the clown though. The guy that actually responds to what is being said.

Your little theory is great and all but it really just shows that you are a whiney little girl that has no clue what I think.

Also, LOL. As if you have real friends or girls interested in you. Women like men, not whiney little b****es.

Your entire OMane persona is based on bitching about anytihng and everything about this organization. If there is a positive thread on the front page, your posts in it are nowhere to be found.

Your the type of guy that would complain about a blowjob because the right music wasn't playing.

jhns
09-07-2011, 10:12 AM
Your entire OMane persona is based on b****ing about anytihng and everything about this organization. If there is a positive thread on the front page, your posts in it are nowhere to be found.

Your the type of guy that would complain about a blowjob because the right music wasn't playing.

LOL @ the drama queen. I argue about Orton and Tebow using facts, like Tebow outplayed Orton last season. I don't whine about **** like you. I also have no problems with any other part of the team. My only predicions have been Elway taking us back to the SB. I have even stated multiple times that I don't mind the way they are handling the QB position but I will still argue my opinion on the board. From this, you say I complain about everything on the team. You and tail are definately two of the biggest drama queens on this board.

You would know this if you actually read what was said, rather than making up drama to cry about.

vancejohnson82
09-07-2011, 10:22 AM
LOL @ the drama queen. I argue about Orton and Tebow using facts, like Tebow outplayed Orton last season. I don't whine about **** like you. I also have no problems with any other part of the team. My only predicions have been Elway taking us back to the SB. I have even stated multiple times that I don't mind the way they are handling the QB position but I will still argue my opinion on the board. From this, you say I complain about everything on the team. You and tail are definately two of the biggest drama queens on this board.

You would know this if you actually read what was said, rather than making up drama to cry about.

We win the AFC West this year....Von Miller wins DPOY.....we have a top 10 defense.....Moreno breaks out this year

This has been all I've been talking about all off-season. Seems pretty positive to me. I've commented on the Tebow/Orton thing in one light - Tebow needs more time and Orton is our best QB now.

The infatuation you have with Tebow is going to lead to an Amy Fisher-esque situation on Orton's doorstep if you don't control yourself.

TheReverend
09-07-2011, 10:25 AM
We win the AFC West this year....Von Miller wins DPOY.....we have a top 10 defense.....Moreno breaks out this year

This has been all I've been talking about all off-season. Seems pretty positive to me. I've commented on the Tebow/Orton thing in one light - Tebow needs more time and Orton is our best QB now.

The infatuation you have with Tebow is going to lead to an Amy Fisher-esque situation on Orton's doorstep if you don't control yourself.

This is also the year I impregnate ScarJo and retire.

vancejohnson82
09-07-2011, 10:28 AM
This is also the year I impregnate ScarJo and retire.

I'm 100% serious when I say that I believe each of those things to be true

I would put money down on at least 3 of those things happening

jhns
09-07-2011, 10:29 AM
We win the AFC West this year....Von Miller wins DPOY.....we have a top 10 defense.....Moreno breaks out this year

This has been all I've been talking about all off-season. Seems pretty positive to me. I've commented on the Tebow/Orton thing in one light - Tebow needs more time and Orton is our best QB now.

The infatuation you have with Tebow is going to lead to an Amy Fisher-esque situation on Orton's doorstep if you don't control yourself.

You can be positive about the football team and a whiney drama queen at the same time... Just look at this thread.

What is with you and the Tebow thing? Again, I can link you to multiple posts where I have stated we don't have a good QB on this roster but Tebow is better than Orton. Stop being such a little girl.

vancejohnson82
09-07-2011, 10:33 AM
You can be positive about the football team and a whiney drama queen at the same time... Just look at this thread.

What is with you and the Tebow thing? Again, I can link you to multiple posts where I have stated we don't have a good QB on this roster but Tebow is better than Orton. Stop being such a little girl.

It will be the same thing as the McDaniels charade you put on

When the team is doing well, you will be quiet and find little things to complain about....then when we lose you will turn into an oh so glorious prophet reveling in the team's losses

(yawn)

its old

errand
09-07-2011, 10:36 AM
Let me simplify this for Orton fans. You throw it behind the receiver when the corner is running with the receiver, or in front of him. You throw it to the outside shoulder when the corner is in front of, or on the inside, of the receiver. You throw it to the inside shoulder when the corner is to the outside of the receiver.

When the corner is running yards behind the receiver, you throw it in front of the receiver so that the corner doesn't have a play on the ball. A perfect throw would be hitting the receiver in stride. Why exactly would you want to let the corner back into the play in this situation? That doesn't even make a little bit of sense. A great throw by Orton would have been about ten yards further down field. He would have hit Marshall in stride, while the corner had zero play on the ball, and it would have given Marshall a couple steps before the safety was there.

Really though, how is this an argument? A receiver has a corner beat and is running in front of that corner. Now explain why it would ever be a good idea to throw behind the receiver, giving that corner a chance?

So why don't you suit up...or at the least teach Tebow how to do these things

jhns
09-07-2011, 10:40 AM
It will be the same thing as the McDaniels charade you put on

When the team is doing well, you will be quiet and find little things to complain about....then when we lose you will turn into an oh so glorious prophet reveling in the team's losses

(yawn)

its old

Drama queen strikes again!

I never shut up about McDaniels because he was a clown. This front office has not done anything to show they are completely incompetent. The situations don't compare. Don't be mad at me because you were too stupid to see something that was so obvious. I'm sure you are the better fan for loving and supporting the guy that tanked this franchise. I know I root for cancer to do its thing in people I love because if people I love have cancer, it must be a good thing!

You hate because I am smarter than you. Not only are you a drama queen, you are a jealous drama queen. What a sad individual.

TheReverend
09-07-2011, 10:41 AM
I'm 100% serious when I say that I believe each of those things to be true

I would put money down on at least 3 of those things happening

I'm totally serious too. Any day she's gonna show up and demand to be my sex slave and sign over all her money.

vancejohnson82
09-07-2011, 10:44 AM
Drama queen strikes again!

I never shut up about McDaniels because he was a clown. This front office has not done anything to show they are completely incompetent. The situations don't compare. Don't be mad at me because you were too stupid to see something that was so obvious. I'm sure you are the better fan for loving and supporting the guy that tanked this franchise. I know I root for cancer to do its thing in people I love because if people I love have cancer, it must be a good thing!You hate because I am smarter than you. Not only are you a drama queen, you are a jealous drama queen. What a sad individual.


You followed your "you are such a girl" with these incredibly intelligent statements. Bravo!!

jhns
09-07-2011, 10:47 AM
I know I did. Your reasoning for loving McDaniels ws that flawed.

vancejohnson82
09-07-2011, 10:50 AM
Eh, you just compared football to cancer.

You showed your classlessness and sophomoric sense of humor in that post.

jhns
09-07-2011, 10:52 AM
Eh, you just compared football to cancer.

You showed your classlessness and sophomoric sense of humor in that post.

It wasn't a joke. You should be evaluated if you thought it was.

Other than that, I never have claimed I am classy. "Classy" just means way too sensitive with a stick up your ass.

TailgateNut
09-07-2011, 10:53 AM
So why don't you suit up...or at the least teach Tebow how to do these things


jhizz suited up-----

http://www.posh24.com/photo/935452/richard_simmons_crazy_red_glas