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Agamemnon
09-05-2011, 03:19 PM
http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?t=192962

Contracts Dictated which QB Started

Lost in all of our fan hoopla about the idea of these QBs competing to start was the inevitable fact that Tebow was not going to start. No chance, was never going to happen. And here's the factual contract data as to why:

Written into Tebow's contract is this qualifier "Tebow's contract DOUBLES from 11.25 million to 22.50 million if he plays 55% of the time in TWO of his first three seasons".

Meanwhile, Orton's contract this season? 9 Million, 6 million guaranteed. So, since no team would trade for Orton at franchise player money, and since Orton refused to renegotiate his contract, the only remaining option was to cut him and pay the 6 million. We weren't going to bench him and pay 9 million.

So, this was the dilemma, pay Orton millions and millions to not play AND double Tebow's contract, or keep Tebow on the bench and not hitting escalators while getting something for the 6 million you owe Orton no matter what.

And you have to wonder about Tebow's future here due to his contract. A contract signed before the rookie wage scale. If Tebow plays 70% of the snaps in 2013, his contract doubles to 22.5 million and if the team makes multiple playoffs under Tebow and he achieves leaguewide awards his contract triples to 33 million.

Meanwhile, the #1 overall selection this year, Cam Newton's contract? 4 Years, 22 million. Andrew Luck is looking at the same deal. And there are 3-4 other QBs likely to go in the Top 20 in the next draft for much cheaper deals in the strongest QB draft in quite some time.

And what about Brady Quinn you might ask? Well, if he plays 70% of our snaps, his contract goes from 700,000 to 6.6 million due to a 5.9 million escalator bonus.

Do you think this was a fair QB competition? Hell no. Orton was never not going to start. Not with Bowlen in a financial crises and unable to even make waiver claims because of financial concerns. Let alone not even being competitive on the open free agent market. We weren't going to pay Orton millions not to play.

We have this big Quinn versus Tebow versus Orton debate, and there probably was a true battle for the #2 spot (which we laughingly refused to name), but there was never a competition for the #1 spot. Finances dictated that. Period.

So if you wonder why Tebow or Quinn didn't play with the starters, or Orton with the 2nd team, this is why. The team knew what direction it was going months and months ago despite telling us it was a competition. Lying has been standard for the front office this offseason despite declarations of openness. Sure they tried to trade Orton's albatross of a contract, but no team was taking that unless Kyle re-negotiated and he made it clear he would not absent a pricy long term deal. Nobody in the NFL wants to give him that. And as for all the chatter about "Tebow being terrible", almost guaranteed it was planted by the front office to try and justify to fans why he wasn't given a chance to start.

Too bad for them the contract information was made public. A little research sure sheds some light on an awful lot of questions and confusing bait and switch comments by EFX.

Bob's your Information Minister
09-05-2011, 03:25 PM
You are now officially the Buffalo Bills.

PRBronco
09-05-2011, 03:26 PM
Fffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuu.....

errand
09-05-2011, 03:28 PM
Wow it's always something...anything...as long as it's not a performance issue that keeps Tebow on the bench.

It's not that he couldn't throw the ball accurately to a guy 12-15 yards down field consistently..it's the coaches have it out for him.

It's not that he tends to disregard his reads and progressions but runs instead, it's the FO has it out for him

It's not that his delivery is slow and deliberate and allows DB's to break on his passes quicker...it's now his contract causing his being stuck on the bench.

You really think that if the Broncos believed they could make the playoffs with Tebow playing 55% of the plays and doubling his salary they wouldn't do it? What's 22 million when a playoff appearance could generate another 100 million in revenue?

WolfpackGuy
09-05-2011, 03:28 PM
Whoever dreamt up that contract on the team's end needs to be backhanded.

See ya in Week 10!

SoCalBronco
09-05-2011, 03:30 PM
You really think that if the Broncos believed they could make the playoffs with Tebow playing 55% of the plays and doubling his salary they wouldn't do it? What's 22 million when a playoff appearance could generate another 100 million in revenue?

I think the Broncos believe they won't make the playoffs either way, so Bowlen might as well line his pockets with the (our) money, instead.

errand
09-05-2011, 03:35 PM
I think the Broncos believe they won't make the playoffs either way, so Bowlen might as well line his pockets with the (our) money, instead.

Nobody owns an NFL franchise to just let it flounder around...well maybe Al Davis and Daniel Snyder do....but c'mon you really think that this conspiracy theory is true.

Why sign him to such a contract to begin with if you weren't willing to pay him if he makes your team successful, thereby generating more money than you'll pay out?

brncs_fan
09-05-2011, 03:39 PM
Orton is starting because he has been the better QB through the preseason. Contract has nothing to do with it.

Bob's your Information Minister
09-05-2011, 03:40 PM
Nobody owns an NFL franchise to just let it flounder around...well maybe Al Davis and Daniel Snyder do....but c'mon you really think that this conspiracy theory is true.


ROFL!

Why don't you ask Bills fans how their franchise is run. Almost every decision they make is based primarily on money.

Bob's your Information Minister
09-05-2011, 03:40 PM
Orton is starting because he has been the better QB through the preseason. Contract has nothing to do with it.

Tebow was not given a chance in preseason games.

brncs_fan
09-05-2011, 03:40 PM
You are now officially the Buffalo Bills.

Nah. We'll be fine.

You guys will always be the Chiefs though. Splendidly mediocre and unappealing in every way imaginable.

SoCalBronco
09-05-2011, 03:43 PM
Nobody owns an NFL franchise to just let it flounder around...well maybe Al Davis and Daniel Snyder do....but c'mon you really think that this conspiracy theory is true.

Why sign him to such a contract to begin with if you weren't willing to pay him if he makes your team successful, thereby generating more money than you'll pay out?

I wouldn't put ANYTHING past Pat Bowlen. He's already brought a tremendous amount of harm to this franchise and is clearly taking advantage of the fact that for two years, there will be no cap floor. Why are we still not spending anything even though the dead money problems are erased from the books in the new CBA and we're 20m below the cap? I still haven't heard any rational explanation for this beyond the most likely explanation (i.e. Bowlen is a flaming POS).

When he starts spending, we'll consider giving him the benefit of the doubt. But so long as he continues his miserly ways, its only reasonable to assume the worst....because that's the most likely explanation. It's not our fault that his outside business investments aren't doing well. I don't care, its not relevant. It has nothing to do with the team. If you can't hack it anymore, then GTFO old man. Just get out. We need to make real investments if we're going to do well. We can't get by this way.

oubronco
09-05-2011, 03:45 PM
Oh good God

vonqkilla
09-05-2011, 03:53 PM
Bowlen is owner in name only, Joe Ellis is running the show. Bowlen cant remember what he had for breakfast, and the Mcdouche/Cutler fiasco confirms it.

TheReverend
09-05-2011, 03:56 PM
Nobody owns an NFL franchise to just let it flounder around...well maybe Al Davis and Daniel Snyder do....but c'mon you really think that this conspiracy theory is true.

Why sign him to such a contract to begin with if you weren't willing to pay him if he makes your team successful, thereby generating more money than you'll pay out?

I have no idea how you came up with those two names... Snyder, Jones and Davis are the complete other end of the spectrum...

Hercules Rockefeller
09-05-2011, 03:58 PM
And these contract details were pointed out when camp started, this is new news how? But at least we have another thread where SoCal and the other Internet GMs can whine about cap room some more and Tebow people can claim some conspiracy outside his control is preventing him from starting.

Paladin
09-05-2011, 03:59 PM
ROFL!

Drama strikes again!!!!!

:clown:Hilarious!

Rock Chalk
09-05-2011, 04:00 PM
I think the Broncos believe they won't make the playoffs either way, so Bowlen might as well line his pockets with the (our) money, instead.

For a republican you sound like a democrat.

SoCalBronco
09-05-2011, 04:01 PM
And these contract details were pointed out when camp started, this is new news how? But at least we have another thread where SoCal and the other Internet GMs can whine about cap room some more and Tebow people can claim some conspiracy outside his control is preventing him from starting.

Do you have any explanation for our current spending practices?

SoCalBronco
09-05-2011, 04:02 PM
For a republican you sound like a democrat.

I'm a moderate Republican. :)

Hercules Rockefeller
09-05-2011, 04:02 PM
I think the Broncos believe they won't make the playoffs either way, so Bowlen might as well line his pockets with the (our) money, instead.

So then what are you whining about? Oh noes!!! They didn't spend to the cap when they don't think they're a playoff team. Whine some ****ing more. That's reality this season. It happens. Deal with it. Sorry you're not happy the $5 the Broncos get from your Sunday Ticket subscription has been spent.

Agamemnon
09-05-2011, 04:03 PM
And these contract details were pointed out when camp started, this is new news how? But at least we have another thread where SoCal and the other Internet GMs can whine about cap room some more and Tebow people can claim some conspiracy outside his control is preventing him from starting.

Clearly you missed the point. It isn't about who is or isn't our starter. It's about the "competition" amongst the QBs being a farce. Neither Tebow nor Quinn got to play with the 1st stringers and Orton never had to play behind the abomination of our 2nd string o-line. There was no QB competition because of financial issues, yet EFX lied to us and said otherwise. Considering how cheap this team has been this offseason, this explanation has suddenly become very hard to dispute. Unless you are one of those blind followers EFX is counting on...

Hercules Rockefeller
09-05-2011, 04:03 PM
Do you have any explanation for our current spending practices?

You've already said it- they're not a playoff team this year.

Shananahan
09-05-2011, 04:04 PM
Written into Tebow's contract is this qualifier "Tebow's contract DOUBLES from 11.25 million to 22.50 million if he plays 55% of the time in TWO of his first three seasons".
So.... if he won the starting job and started the next two years, he'd be earning each year about the same amount as Orton is being paid this season. You think if he was clearly the better QB they'd have any reservation paying him what they're already giving Orton?

Tebow's not starting because they couldn't get rid of Orton and he's better enough at this point to where they can't outright cut him. Money plays a role in this, but only on Orton's end.

Agamemnon
09-05-2011, 04:04 PM
So then what are you whining about? Oh noes!!! They didn't spend to the cap when they don't think they're a playoff team. Whine some ****ing more. That's reality this season. It happens. Deal with it. Sorry you're not happy the $5 the Broncos get from your Sunday Ticket subscription has been spent.

Don't lie. You were down with how McD operated as well weren't you?

Ray Finkle
09-05-2011, 04:06 PM
of course Tebow not being ready to start has NOTHING to do with this....yuck....

Agamemnon
09-05-2011, 04:07 PM
So.... if he won the starting job and started the next two years, he'd be earning each year about the same amount as Orton is being paid this season. You think if he was clearly the better QB they'd have any reservation paying him what they're already giving Orton?

Tebow's not starting because they couldn't get rid of Orton and he's better enough at this point to where they can't outright cut him. Money plays a role in this, but only on Orton's end.

Are you kidding? They are probably quite perturbed that they are stuck with Orton's contract right now. They sure aren't going to double that by starting Tebow.

Shananahan
09-05-2011, 04:08 PM
You more or less repeated the point I was trying to make.

Orton's contract is the reason Tebow isn't starting. Not the other way around.

Agamemnon
09-05-2011, 04:09 PM
of course Tebow not being ready to start has NOTHING to do with this....yuck....

Reading comprehension ftw. This isn't about Tebow being ready or not. This is about EFX lying to us about a mythical QB competition when the decision had already been made due to finances.

Agamemnon
09-05-2011, 04:10 PM
You more or less repeated the point I was trying to make.

Orton's contract is the reason Tebow isn't starting. Not the other way around.

They are both factors.

TheReverend
09-05-2011, 04:12 PM
You've already said it- they're not a playoff team this year.

...In what way does that make not trying to secure cogs for the future acceptable?

Should every basement team lie down for a few years? I genuinely have no clue where your perspective on this is coming from...

SoCalBronco
09-05-2011, 04:13 PM
So then what are you whining about? Oh noes!!! They didn't spend to the cap when they don't think they're a playoff team. Whine some ****ing more. That's reality this season. It happens. Deal with it. Sorry you're not happy the $5 the Broncos get from your Sunday Ticket subscription has been spent.

The problem with your argument is that this isn't the first time they haven't spent money. They haven't spent money for 10 of the last 12 years. And while I grant you that their projection of not being a playoff team is likely correct, the whole point here is to build something from the ground up. You don't just spend a ton of cash the year you think you might do something. It's a gradual process, where you start to lay a foundation and build it up. If you get Mebane, is he going to get you into the playoffs? No, but at least we're starting to fill our needs with real answers (not crap) and climbing back into respectability, you build layer by layer. I'm not saying they have to spend to the hilt, but they at least shouldn't be 20m under.

brncs_fan
09-05-2011, 04:14 PM
Reading comprehension ftw. This isn't about Tebow being ready or not. This is about EFX lying to us about a mythical QB competition when the decision had already been made due to finances.

And the proof of this dishonesty can easily be found in the annals of a message board posting.

Seriously? Any attempt that you or anyone else could take to come up with this is just plain silly. Looking at the contracts, creating conjecture, and then blasting it to be the Gospel just isn't working.

Doggcow
09-05-2011, 04:16 PM
Is it 55% of the time at QB? We could use him as a fullback this year..

Agamemnon
09-05-2011, 04:16 PM
And the proof of this dishonesty can easily be found in the annals of a message board posting.

Seriously? Any attempt that you or anyone else could take to come up with this is just plain silly. Looking at the contracts, creating conjecture, and then blasting it to be the Gospel just isn't working.

So you think QB competitions involve one QB getting all the 1st team reps in camp and preseason? You think that is a legitimate QB competition? ::)

epicSocialism4tw
09-05-2011, 04:17 PM
http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?t=192962

Contracts Dictated which QB Started

Lost in all of our fan hoopla about the idea of these QBs competing to start was the inevitable fact that Tebow was not going to start. No chance, was never going to happen. And here's the factual contract data as to why:

Written into Tebow's contract is this qualifier "Tebow's contract DOUBLES from 11.25 million to 22.50 million if he plays 55% of the time in TWO of his first three seasons".

Meanwhile, Orton's contract this season? 9 Million, 6 million guaranteed. So, since no team would trade for Orton at franchise player money, and since Orton refused to renegotiate his contract, the only remaining option was to cut him and pay the 6 million. We weren't going to bench him and pay 9 million.

So, this was the dilemma, pay Orton millions and millions to not play AND double Tebow's contract, or keep Tebow on the bench and not hitting escalators while getting something for the 6 million you owe Orton no matter what.

And you have to wonder about Tebow's future here due to his contract. A contract signed before the rookie wage scale. If Tebow plays 70% of the snaps in 2013, his contract doubles to 22.5 million and if the team makes multiple playoffs under Tebow and he achieves leaguewide awards his contract triples to 33 million.

Meanwhile, the #1 overall selection this year, Cam Newton's contract? 4 Years, 22 million. Andrew Luck is looking at the same deal. And there are 3-4 other QBs likely to go in the Top 20 in the next draft for much cheaper deals in the strongest QB draft in quite some time.

And what about Brady Quinn you might ask? Well, if he plays 70% of our snaps, his contract goes from 700,000 to 6.6 million due to a 5.9 million escalator bonus.

Do you think this was a fair QB competition? Hell no. Orton was never not going to start. Not with Bowlen in a financial crises and unable to even make waiver claims because of financial concerns. Let alone not even being competitive on the open free agent market. We weren't going to pay Orton millions not to play.

We have this big Quinn versus Tebow versus Orton debate, and there probably was a true battle for the #2 spot (which we laughingly refused to name), but there was never a competition for the #1 spot. Finances dictated that. Period.

So if you wonder why Tebow or Quinn didn't play with the starters, or Orton with the 2nd team, this is why. The team knew what direction it was going months and months ago despite telling us it was a competition. Lying has been standard for the front office this offseason despite declarations of openness. Sure they tried to trade Orton's albatross of a contract, but no team was taking that unless Kyle re-negotiated and he made it clear he would not absent a pricy long term deal. Nobody in the NFL wants to give him that. And as for all the chatter about "Tebow being terrible", almost guaranteed it was planted by the front office to try and justify to fans why he wasn't given a chance to start.

Too bad for them the contract information was made public. A little research sure sheds some light on an awful lot of questions and confusing bait and switch comments by EFX.

This is the kind of research that the Denver Post should be doing. They should be cross-checking this information through interviews and publishing their articles analyzing this stuff.

All we get from the denver post is a bunch of fluff articles essentially trying to drum up interest for the franchise.

denverpost.com/broncos

Shananahan
09-05-2011, 04:17 PM
The good news is that if this is truly the reason for the 'debacle', we should be looking at Tebow taking over once Orton gets 50% of the snaps out of the way.

SoCalBronco
09-05-2011, 04:18 PM
This is the kind of research that the Denver Post should be doing. They should be cross-checking this information through interviews and publishing their articles analyzing this stuff.

All we get from the denver post is a bunch of fluff articles essentially trying to drum up interest for the franchise.

denverpost.com/broncos

Mike Klis is a great example of this phenomenon. He's been reduced to sucking the team's dick just to get a steady flow of information.

DrFate
09-05-2011, 04:19 PM
So you think QB competitions involve one QB getting all the 1st team reps in camp and preseason? You think that is a legitimate QB competition? ::)

We saw a true QB competition this preseason - it was between Grossman and Beck in DC.

brncs_fan
09-05-2011, 04:23 PM
So you think QB competitions involve one QB getting all the 1st team reps in camp and preseason? You think that is a legitimate QB competition? ::)

Well, Tebow did work with the 1's a few times so I guess Orton Didn't get all of the reps.

I'm not saying that it was a 100% open competition. However, I don't think if I was a coach and was seeing from Tebow what he was showing at the beginning of camp, knowing that he was a project, knowing that he had ZERO off-season to work with coaches or to learn in OTA's, and knowing that his play can be very sporadic that I would have been ready to just hand over the keys to him either. All this coming from a guy who wanted Orton traded and Tebow and Quinn to fight it out for the starting job.

There are a million factors at play and to look at their contracts and try to single out money as the reason is asinine.

KO5K
09-05-2011, 04:23 PM
You've already said it- they're not a playoff team this year.

So why is Orton starting?

This is what I don't understand most of all. EFX seem to be treating it as a win now situation occasionally and then a build for the future situation at other times.

Bob's your Information Minister
09-05-2011, 04:25 PM
If this information is publicly available, where?

tsiguy96
09-05-2011, 04:26 PM
So why is Orton starting?

This is what I don't understand most of all. EFX seem to be treating it as a win now situation occasionally and then a build for the future situation at other times.

because they will treat this team as a team that can compete until they arent in it anymore, thats their job...if they feel this team can compete for the division they need to do that.

Popps
09-05-2011, 04:27 PM
MUG?

This is the same guy saying Von Miller sucks, right?

Cool. Keep us updated.

epicSocialism4tw
09-05-2011, 04:30 PM
Mike Klis is a great example of this phenomenon. He's been reduced to sucking the team's dick just to get a steady flow of information.

Well, you look at this offseason.

It has been a huge period of transition with many opportunities to root around and find meaty bits of information to build stories on.

They were always behind the news in free agency, were always behind the news with the draft, etc...but they have been the driving force behind the Tebow controversies. If you go look at the titles of their articles, its hilarious. Things like "Orton Can Lead Broncos to Playoffs With Career Year", "Broncomaniacs Keep the Faith Even in Hard Times", "Evaluations of Tebow, Quinn Arent Confined to Games" (seriously! thats how they're spinning the whole "Tebow is better in games" thing Ha!), "Tebow No Longer #1 in Jersey Sales", "Could the Broncos Use Tim Tebow as a Wide Receiver?", etc.

Woody Paige is the only guy who apparently has license from the editors to occasionally waltz outside of the party line.


They are literally selling the franchise spin to the fans.

Ray Finkle
09-05-2011, 04:31 PM
Reading comprehension ftw. This isn't about Tebow being ready or not. This is about EFX lying to us about a mythical QB competition when the decision had already been made due to finances.

and that fact that Tebow isn't ready....nice job to take a swipe just to prove you're more knowledgeable and a better internet board poster.

I applaud you...

epicSocialism4tw
09-05-2011, 04:31 PM
There are a million factors at play and to look at their contracts and try to single out money as the reason is asinine.

Not at all.

This team has shown the tendancy to take the cheap route for years now.

Money is always a legitimate angle for analysis here now.

1998 is a long time ago.

errand
09-05-2011, 04:32 PM
I wouldn't put ANYTHING past Pat Bowlen. He's already brought a tremendous amount of harm to this franchise and is clearly taking advantage of the fact that for two years, there will be no cap floor. Why are we still not spending anything even though the dead money problems are erased from the books in the new CBA and we're 20m below the cap? I still haven't heard any rational explanation for this beyond the most likely explanation (i.e. Bowlen is a flaming POS).

When he starts spending, we'll consider giving him the benefit of the doubt. But so long as he continues his miserly ways, its only reasonable to assume the worst....because that's the most likely explanation. It's not our fault that his outside business investments aren't doing well. I don't care, its not relevant. It has nothing to do with the team. If you can't hack it anymore, then GTFO old man. Just get out. We need to make real investments if we're going to do well. We can't get by this way.

First off it's his team...not ours. You wanna spend money of ****, buy it from him.

Secondly...just because there's a cap...it doesn't mean you have to be near the limit. And he still owes out those contracts that were signed regardless if they count towards this seasons numbers or not.....

But he doesn't strike me as the type of guy to not try and win and make the playoffs in order to save a few million bucks.....all this is is yet another angle Tebow fans can use to explain why he's not starting.

Agamemnon
09-05-2011, 04:32 PM
MUG?

This is the same guy saying Von Miller sucks, right?

Cool. Keep us updated.

As I recall he said that Miller was kind of crappy outside of rushing the passer in the first two preseason games. Not really sure what he's said since. He wasn't wrong either.

errand
09-05-2011, 04:34 PM
I have no idea how you came up with those two names... Snyder, Jones and Davis are the complete other end of the spectrum...

Really...what have the Davis' and Snyder's of the league done here lately? Raiders haven't done **** since '02 and the Skins? Really?

errand
09-05-2011, 04:35 PM
Do you have any explanation for our current spending practices?

Sure...it's called not throwing good money at bad players.....

Agamemnon
09-05-2011, 04:36 PM
Well, Tebow did work with the 1's a few times so I guess Orton Didn't get all of the reps.

You mean when Orton left to see his daughter being born? Okay...

TheReverend
09-05-2011, 04:36 PM
Really...what have the Davis' and Snyder's of the league done here lately? Raiders haven't done **** since '02 and the Skins? Really?

The discussion is about "miserly" owners.

Try to keep up.

Agamemnon
09-05-2011, 04:37 PM
Sure...it's called not throwing good money at bad players.....

LOL Mebane and Abrayo Franklin aren't bad players.

errand
09-05-2011, 04:37 PM
Clearly you missed the point. It isn't about who is or isn't our starter. It's about the "competition" amongst the QBs being a farce. Neither Tebow nor Quinn got to play with the 1st stringers and Orton never had to play behind the abomination of our 2nd string o-line. There was no QB competition because of financial issues, yet EFX lied to us and said otherwise. Considering how cheap this team has been this offseason, this explanation has suddenly become very hard to dispute. Unless you are one of those blind followers EFX is counting on...

OK...well there are 31 other NFL teams you can root for. I'm sure they'd play Tebow despite none of them wanting his ass

Ray Finkle
09-05-2011, 04:38 PM
The problem with your argument is that this isn't the first time they haven't spent money. They haven't spent money for 10 of the last 12 years. And while I grant you that their projection of not being a playoff team is likely correct, the whole point here is to build something from the ground up. You don't just spend a ton of cash the year you think you might do something. It's a gradual process, where you start to lay a foundation and build it up. If you get Mebane, is he going to get you into the playoffs? No, but at least we're starting to fill our needs with real answers (not crap) and climbing back into respectability, you build layer by layer. I'm not saying they have to spend to the hilt, but they at least shouldn't be 20m under.

so you want to over spend on players to fill needs....isn't that what the Skins have been doing for the last decade with minimal results? This team is painfully short on talent and the only way to build a solid nucleus is through the draft. DT's are the biggest crap shoot of them all. Mebane was a solid DT paid look a top tier impact DT.

Agamemnon
09-05-2011, 04:38 PM
OK...well there are 31 other NFL teams you can root for. I'm sure they'd play Tebow despite none of them wanting his ass

Says the guy that is happy with a loser as the starting QB of the Broncos. Hilarious!

errand
09-05-2011, 04:39 PM
Reading comprehension ftw. This isn't about Tebow being ready or not. This is about EFX lying to us about a mythical QB competition when the decision had already been made due to finances.

The only myth is the one that you're trying to spread.....

That one measly come from behind homefield win against the NFL's worst pass defense is merit enough to lead this franchise.

TheReverend
09-05-2011, 04:39 PM
so you want to over spend on players to fill needs....isn't that what the Skins have been doing for the last decade with minimal results? This team is painfully short on talent and the only way to build a solid nucleus is through the draft. DT's are the biggest crap shoot of them all. Mebane was a solid DT paid look a top tier impact DT.

....you think 5 years for 25 million is "top tier impact DT" $?

NZ Bronco
09-05-2011, 04:40 PM
I think the Broncos believe they won't make the playoffs either way, so Bowlen might as well line his pockets with the (our) money, instead.

Once you purchase a product from someone, the money is no longer yours... You don't want Bowlen's Broncos? Don't spend money on them.

Otherwise ... Shhhhhhhh.

Give Fox a chance!

SoCalBronco
09-05-2011, 04:40 PM
so you want to over spend on players to fill needs....isn't that what the Skins have been doing for the last decade with minimal results? This team is painfully short on talent and the only way to build a solid nucleus is through the draft. DT's are the biggest crap shoot of them all. Mebane was a solid DT paid look a top tier impact DT.

No...not "overspending"....just spending. 20m below is crap. We haven't a spent a great deal of actual dollars more than 2-3 times in 12 years. Mebane was only paid 5m, that's hardly a massive deal.

Agamemnon
09-05-2011, 04:42 PM
The only myth is the one that you're trying to spread.....

That one measly come from behind homefield win against the NFL's worst pass defense is merit enough to lead this franchise.

Pretty sure the "Orton doesn't suck" myth you're constantly spewing probably counts...

Taco John
09-05-2011, 04:43 PM
Whatever anyone wants to believe about the QB position, this is a pretty horrible way to structure a contract. The inevitable result is doubt and mistrust.

errand
09-05-2011, 04:43 PM
So you think QB competitions involve one QB getting all the 1st team reps in camp and preseason? You think that is a legitimate QB competition? ::)

Well when you look at NFL readiness of those QB's involved (Tebow, Orton, Quinn), there isn't any competition. Orton is clearly the correct choice on this team. He's way ahead of his colleagues in every facet of the gaame.

Agamemnon
09-05-2011, 04:45 PM
I swear to god, Pat Bowlen could **** down the throats of some of you people and you would smile a ****-streaked grin, call it the best soft serve ice cream in the world, and ask for seconds.

Agamemnon
09-05-2011, 04:46 PM
Well when you look at NFL readiness of those QB's involved (Tebow, Orton, Quinn), there isn't any competition. Orton is clearly the correct choice on this team. He's way ahead of his colleagues in every facet of the gaame.

Orton is a garbage starter. This has been proven. Thanks for playing.

Agamemnon
09-05-2011, 04:47 PM
Whatever anyone wants to believe about the QB position, this is a pretty horrible way to structure a contract. The inevitable result is doubt and mistrust.

Thank you once again McDaniels.

NUB
09-05-2011, 04:47 PM
Not totally impossible (http://orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=99773&page=9), but unlikely.

Ray Finkle
09-05-2011, 04:50 PM
No...not "overspending"....just spending. 20m below is crap. We haven't a spent a great deal of actual dollars more than 2-3 times in 12 years. Mebane was only paid 5m, that's hardly a massive deal.

It is when you've spent $$$ like that before and have gotten little results.

Agamemnon
09-05-2011, 04:51 PM
It is when you've spent $$$ like that before and have gotten little results.

Guess we should stop drafting as well then...

SoCalBronco
09-05-2011, 04:53 PM
It is when you've spent $$$ like that before and have gotten little results.

We HAVEN'T spent money before. Just because we've had a few high profile misses doesn't mean that on the whole we spent a great deal of money. I've already pointed this out and proven this time and time again. We only spent real money 2-3 years out of 12.

I'm not asking for him to turn into Dolan, just to be less of a douchebag.

errand
09-05-2011, 04:54 PM
Says the guy that is happy with a loser as the starting QB of the Broncos. Hilarious!


...and the guy that backs up this "loser" what does that make him? and what does it make the fans of his?LOL

Ray Finkle
09-05-2011, 04:54 PM
Guess we should stop drafting as well then...

you are an idiot....

Agamemnon
09-05-2011, 04:55 PM
you are an idiot....

If I actually believed in your crap logic I would agree...

Ray Finkle
09-05-2011, 04:56 PM
We HAVEN'T spent money before. Just because we've had a few high profile misses doesn't mean that on the whole we spent a great deal of money. I've already pointed this out and proven this time and time again. We only spent real money 2-3 years out of 12.

I'm not asking for him to turn into Dolan, just to be less of a douchebag.

Spending money just to spend money will turn you into Dolan....

errand
09-05-2011, 04:56 PM
Thank you once again McDaniels.

How is it McDaniels was such an idiot to you, but you fight for his project QB like he was your homosexual lover?

errand
09-05-2011, 04:57 PM
Orton is a garbage starter. This has been proven. Thanks for playing.

Again...how is it that this uberman you call Tebow, cannot beat out such human garbage?

KO5K
09-05-2011, 04:57 PM
Thank you once again McDaniels.

In fairness, pizza boy needs to take the blame for that one.

Agamemnon
09-05-2011, 04:58 PM
...and the guy that backs up this "loser" what does that make him? and what does it make the fans of his?LOL

It says that they don't believe they can afford to start anyone but said loser. Have you not been paying attention?

Ray Finkle
09-05-2011, 04:58 PM
How is it McDaniels was such an idiot to you, but you fight for his project QB like he was your homosexual lover?

it's a message board....logic need not apply. Just the sharpness of your cyber-whit.

Agamemnon
09-05-2011, 04:59 PM
In fairness, pizza boy needs to take the blame for that one.

Honestly I don't know who exactly structured that deal, but yeah I'm down with blaming Xanders as well. Pretty sure the 9 million extension to Orton was all McD though (that mother****ing ****tard).

epicSocialism4tw
09-05-2011, 04:59 PM
Whatever anyone wants to believe about the QB position, this is a pretty horrible way to structure a contract. The inevitable result is doubt and mistrust.

Absolutely.

What's crazy is that Tebow basically drives the interest for the team, and has been a major source of revenue in just his one plus seasons here.

Agamemnon
09-05-2011, 05:01 PM
it's a message board....logic need not apply. Just the sharpness of your cyber-whit.

Like errand would know logic if it punched him in the face. Hilarious!

dbfan21
09-05-2011, 05:23 PM
http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?t=192962

Contracts Dictated which QB Started

Lost in all of our fan hoopla about the idea of these QBs competing to start was the inevitable fact that Tebow was not going to start. No chance, was never going to happen. And here's the factual contract data as to why:

Written into Tebow's contract is this qualifier "Tebow's contract DOUBLES from 11.25 million to 22.50 million if he plays 55% of the time in TWO of his first three seasons".

Meanwhile, Orton's contract this season? 9 Million, 6 million guaranteed. So, since no team would trade for Orton at franchise player money, and since Orton refused to renegotiate his contract, the only remaining option was to cut him and pay the 6 million. We weren't going to bench him and pay 9 million.

So, this was the dilemma, pay Orton millions and millions to not play AND double Tebow's contract, or keep Tebow on the bench and not hitting escalators while getting something for the 6 million you owe Orton no matter what.

And you have to wonder about Tebow's future here due to his contract. A contract signed before the rookie wage scale. If Tebow plays 70% of the snaps in 2013, his contract doubles to 22.5 million and if the team makes multiple playoffs under Tebow and he achieves leaguewide awards his contract triples to 33 million.

Meanwhile, the #1 overall selection this year, Cam Newton's contract? 4 Years, 22 million. Andrew Luck is looking at the same deal. And there are 3-4 other QBs likely to go in the Top 20 in the next draft for much cheaper deals in the strongest QB draft in quite some time.

And what about Brady Quinn you might ask? Well, if he plays 70% of our snaps, his contract goes from 700,000 to 6.6 million due to a 5.9 million escalator bonus.

Do you think this was a fair QB competition? Hell no. Orton was never not going to start. Not with Bowlen in a financial crises and unable to even make waiver claims because of financial concerns. Let alone not even being competitive on the open free agent market. We weren't going to pay Orton millions not to play.

We have this big Quinn versus Tebow versus Orton debate, and there probably was a true battle for the #2 spot (which we laughingly refused to name), but there was never a competition for the #1 spot. Finances dictated that. Period.

So if you wonder why Tebow or Quinn didn't play with the starters, or Orton with the 2nd team, this is why. The team knew what direction it was going months and months ago despite telling us it was a competition. Lying has been standard for the front office this offseason despite declarations of openness. Sure they tried to trade Orton's albatross of a contract, but no team was taking that unless Kyle re-negotiated and he made it clear he would not absent a pricy long term deal. Nobody in the NFL wants to give him that. And as for all the chatter about "Tebow being terrible", almost guaranteed it was planted by the front office to try and justify to fans why he wasn't given a chance to start.

Too bad for them the contract information was made public. A little research sure sheds some light on an awful lot of questions and confusing bait and switch comments by EFX.

That is AMAZING insight into a contract that is supposedly private. How was MUG so fortunate to get the details of that contract with escalator clauses and the like?

Agamemnon
09-05-2011, 05:24 PM
That is AMAZING insight into a contract that is supposedly private. How was MUG so fortunate to get the details of that contract with escalator clauses and the like?

Umm...because they aren't private? As in they were publicly disclosed?

Requiem
09-05-2011, 05:24 PM
^ He used an internet search engine.

vonqkilla
09-05-2011, 05:29 PM
_Sundquist Ted Sundquist @Krynitan @MaxBroncos In all my years I can't remember ever holding a player out to avoid an
escalator. Do what you can to WIN now.

That is Ted Sunquist responding to me. Interesting.

Requiem
09-05-2011, 05:30 PM
Ted Sundquist couldn't find sunshine in Florida.

Agamemnon
09-05-2011, 05:31 PM
_Sundquist Ted Sundquist @Krynitan @MaxBroncos In all my years I can't remember ever holding a player out to avoid an
escalator. Do what you can to WIN now.

That is Ted Sunquist responding to me. Interesting.

In all his years he didn't work for a Bowlen that appears to be all but completely broke.

gyldenlove
09-05-2011, 06:03 PM
I hate to break up this little pissing contest in here, and I certainly hate to point out that MUG is wr-wr-wr-wr-incorrect on this one to a large extend.

Yes it is true that if Tebow plays 55% of the offensive snaps in 2 of the 3 seasons from 2010-2012 his contract will escalate - however the same escalation will happen if he played 70% of the snaps in 2013, so it seems outright illogical that Tebow's contract escalation would keep from him starting this year.

Here is what is required for Tebow to reach the escalation: he must start this year AND he must play well enough to start in 2012 OR he must start this year AND be given a shot at starting in 2012 - to reach escalation he would have to be a 2 year starter.
Tebow will reach the escalator if he starts in 2013, so even if we keep him riding the pine this year and only start him next year he will still reach the escalator if he is a 2 year starter since he will trigger the 2013 clause.

I like the kid, I do, I think he has significant potential however we can not overlook the fact that his consistency throwing the ball is marginal, his accuracy is lacking, he still has a long throwing motion under pressure, he doesn't go through his progressions well and he doesn't stretch the field (1 long pass aside).

If we wanted to unload Orton's deal we could have and since Tebow will get his money if he is a 2 year starter anyway that is no reason to keep him on the bench.

I know some people have a vested interest in finding reasons outside the gridiron for why Tebow is not a starting QB with a C on his jersey and a Lombardi trophy, MVP and superbowl MVP trophy, but the real reason is unfortunately found on the 120 yards of turf between the goal post.

Bob's your Information Minister
09-05-2011, 06:09 PM
Yes it is true that if Tebow plays 55% of the offensive snaps in 2 of the 3 seasons from 2010-2012 his contract will escalate - however the same escalation will happen if he played 70% of the snaps in 2013, so it seems outright illogical that Tebow's contract escalation would keep from him starting this year.

Not if the Broncos have no interest in starting Tebow at all.

Ever.

Because of Andrew Luck.

vonqkilla
09-05-2011, 06:11 PM
I hate to break up this little pissing contest in here, and I certainly hate to point out that MUG is wr-wr-wr-wr-incorrect on this one to a large extend.

Yes it is true that if Tebow plays 55% of the offensive snaps in 2 of the 3 seasons onsistency throwing the ball is marginal, his accuracy is lacking, he still has a long throwing motion under pressure, he doesn't go through his progressions well and he doesn't stretch the field (1 long pass aside).
.

Yards per pass. Look it up.

Agamemnon
09-05-2011, 06:23 PM
he doesn't stretch the field

Jesus Christ. People will say just about any stupid thing possible on these boards...

OBF1
09-05-2011, 06:28 PM
Could anyone give me proof of the following statement made in the original thread,

" Do you think this was a fair QB competition? Hell no. Orton was never not going to start. Not with Bowlen in a financial crises and unable to even make waiver claims because of financial concerns"

Someone, anyone please confirm this with either a tax return, court paperwork, even a business P&L statement. I hear alot of talk, but nothing to ever prove this over used statement.

FrankieTwoThumbs
09-05-2011, 06:32 PM
Yards per pass. Look it up.

A nice side benefit when struggling to complete short easy passes.

extralife
09-05-2011, 06:35 PM
you ****ing idiots <i>really</i> think that guys with ZERO job security are going to do something they think sabotages the team's chances of winning based on some contract escalators? coaches and GMs in the NFL don't last. you win or you walk out the door.

OrangeSe7en
09-05-2011, 06:39 PM
Could anyone give me proof of the following statement made in the original thread,

" Do you think this was a fair QB competition? Hell no. Orton was never not going to start. Not with Bowlen in a financial crises and unable to even make waiver claims because of financial concerns"

Someone, anyone please confirm this with either a tax return, court paperwork, even a business P&L statement. I hear alot of talk, but nothing to ever prove this over used statement.

Why would you just assume Bowlen is in good shape financially?

ScottXray
09-05-2011, 06:40 PM
It says that they don't believe they can afford to start anyone but said loser. Have you not been paying attention?

If money was the main criteria then Weber would be starting and they could cut Orton Tebow and Quinn. Pick up 2 more UDFA QBs and the roster is full. Of course they have to pay the guaranteed portions of the other 3.

The money may be a factor, but the fact is Tebow can do with another year of Seasoning and learning. And if Orton has us below .500 after 9-10 games than Tebow might get his chance this year...this time with a full roster and intact coaching staff. Whether fox and CO. are the right staff to take advantage of Tebows skill set ( shotgun /spread offence QB) is another matter, but hopefully they aren't going to make Reeves mistake once he is in the games.

I like Tebow, hope he succeeds and is the QBOTF we all want...but he isn't ready to take the reins yet. And if we are over .500 with Orton after 10 games than maybe he'll actually get the team into the playoffs, since he wants that big payday next year. If so then we might resign him or let him walk and take the compensatory pick. I don't think they will Franchise him and they won't offer him the kind of money he'll want....especially if money IS the problem.

MagicHef
09-05-2011, 06:44 PM
A nice side benefit when struggling to complete short easy passes.

No, it's yards per attempt, not yards per completion. Any incomplete pass hurts the average.

TonyR
09-05-2011, 07:01 PM
Good grief, people. If money was the driving factor then why did the team move up into the first to draft Tebow? And why did they give Orton an extension? And why did the give Doom and Kuper and Champ extensions? And why did they sign FA's last year and this year? Yes, money is a factor. Clearly. But it's certainly not the only factor and probably not remotely the main factor. Wins mean playoffs, playoffs mean playoff revenue. If they thought Tebow would bring more wins they'd play him. Y'all need to take a deep breath and step back off the ledge.

HAT
09-05-2011, 07:03 PM
Good grief, people. If money was the driving factor then why did the team move up into the first to draft Tebow? And why did they give Orton an extension? And why did the give Doom and Kuper and Champ extensions? .

Because McD is a poopy head. Duh!

LRtagger
09-05-2011, 07:08 PM
If money was the only determining factor, and the staff felt Tebow gave the team the best chance to win, then they would cut Orton, eat the $6mil, and have a lower first round draft pick next year (since Tebow would win more games than Orton) which would save a few million dollars in contractual and guaranteed money in the draft next year.

This money theory is retarded. Orton is starting because the new staff feels he gives the team the best chance to win. If they were worried about Tebow's escalators, they wouldnt have shopped Orton.

Besides, if Tebow plays and gains additional moneys from contract escalators, the franchise would probably get that money back in secondary revenue (Tebow merchandise, jerseys, etc).

broncocalijohn
09-05-2011, 07:12 PM
You think Fox would take this job after being told that if Tebow is the best QB, he has to sit him because of financial concerns? Fox cannot afford another bad coaching stint or he will be next seen as a football analyst on ESPN.

yerner
09-05-2011, 07:14 PM
Great, another 5 pages trying to figure out why Tebow sucks and can't figure out how to play under center.

gyldenlove
09-05-2011, 07:16 PM
Jesus Christ. People will say just about any stupid thing possible on these boards...

31 attempts, he has 2 completions of more than 30 yards. You tell me how that is stretching the field or was that not a truth you wanted to hear?

gyldenlove
09-05-2011, 07:19 PM
Yards per pass. Look it up.

0.3 better than Orton who is known for not being a long passer, I don't see your point.

Archer81
09-05-2011, 07:22 PM
Two roads diverged in a wood and I, I took the one less traveled by; and that has made all the difference.


:Broncos:

Shananahan
09-05-2011, 07:26 PM
Jesus Christ. People will say just about any stupid thing possible on these boards...
It's interesting that you ignored the rest of his comment.

tsiguy96
09-05-2011, 07:37 PM
you ****ing idiots <i>really</i> think that guys with ZERO job security are going to do something they think sabotages the team's chances of winning based on some contract escalators? coaches and GMs in the NFL don't last. you win or you walk out the door.

get that logic outta here.

vonqkilla
09-05-2011, 07:44 PM
It would be an Ellis de facto Bowlen decision if it were true, so the gm and hc get a pass if this was true.

bowtown
09-05-2011, 07:44 PM
If money were actually the determining factor, Tebow would be starting. He sells jerseys, he puts butts in seats, he generates buzz. From a marketing and PR perspective, starting Tebow is a no-brainer. Which is why it's even more telling that he's still sitting on the bench.

vonqkilla
09-05-2011, 08:10 PM
The Sb from last year is on. 2 teams built thru the draft.

Wash rinse repeat.

epicSocialism4tw
09-05-2011, 08:20 PM
Could anyone give me proof of the following statement made in the original thread,

" Do you think this was a fair QB competition? Hell no. Orton was never not going to start. Not with Bowlen in a financial crises and unable to even make waiver claims because of financial concerns"

Someone, anyone please confirm this with either a tax return, court paperwork, even a business P&L statement. I hear alot of talk, but nothing to ever prove this over used statement.

Thats the kind of information that journalists (like Denver Post beat writers for instance) are supposed to dig up and include in an analysis of this stuff.

epicSocialism4tw
09-05-2011, 08:22 PM
If money was the only determining factor, and the staff felt Tebow gave the team the best chance to win, then they would cut Orton, eat the $6mil, and have a lower first round draft pick next year (since Tebow would win more games than Orton) which would save a few million dollars in contractual and guaranteed money in the draft next year.

This money theory is retarded. Orton is starting because the new staff feels he gives the team the best chance to win. If they were worried about Tebow's escalators, they wouldnt have shopped Orton.

Besides, if Tebow plays and gains additional moneys from contract escalators, the franchise would probably get that money back in secondary revenue (Tebow merchandise, jerseys, etc).

I don't think that Orton gives the team the best chance to win. He just gives the team possibly a rough equivalent chance to win. But with Ortie, you get side benefits like a happy Lloyd and other vets, you get to minimize the Tebow contract, etc. There are more factors at play.

I think that its safe to say that Tebow has not been given a fighters chance at the #1 spot.

Taco John
09-05-2011, 08:31 PM
How is it McDaniels was such an idiot to you, but you fight for his project QB like he was your homosexual lover?

I wasn't a big fan of Wade Phillips as a head coach, but I was a pretty big fan of both Shannon Sharpe and Rod Smith. I don't know where this idea that players have to be married to the coach that drafted them comes from. I think Josh McDaniels was probably the worst hire in the history of the NFL, but I still like the character, charisma, attitude, and pure physical ability of Tebow.

Taco John
09-05-2011, 08:33 PM
That is AMAZING insight into a contract that is supposedly private. How was MUG so fortunate to get the details of that contract with escalator clauses and the like?


http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_15667056

cutthemdown
09-05-2011, 08:52 PM
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_15667056

That link said not only does he need to play 55% of the snaps this yr, but also the Broncos have to make the playoffs. So really this is all moot. Also he only need to play in 70% of the snaps next yr to get paid, so this yr not make or break because even if he hit the 35% bonus this yr, he would still have to play in a bunch of games in 2013 to hit the bigger bonus.

Broncos not benching Tebow because of this. If they though he could take the snaps, get Broncos in the playoffs they would do it and pay him them 22.5 million that it double to. A bargain for a QB that gets you to the playoffs.

there is no conspiracy, Tebow just not quite ready, but if Orton stinks it up Fox will yank him. The track record of Fox says he will yank Orton after only 2-3 bad games. Orton will be on a short leash IMO.

Taco John
09-05-2011, 09:02 PM
I don't like how this looks for the organization, and really wish that they would have either committed or not to the guy so that we wouldn't be in this awkward situation now. But all that aside, there is no way that if the coaches thought Tebow would get us more wins, they'd start Orton over him. This organization wants to win this year.

DarkHorse30
09-05-2011, 09:35 PM
I wouldn't put ANYTHING past Pat Bowlen. He's already brought a tremendous amount of harm to this franchise you mean by hiring shanahan back to get a coupla superbowls? or by hiring a pretty good DC coach like Fox and bringing Elway into ownership?...and is clearly taking advantage of the fact that for two years, there will be no cap floor. Why are we still not spending anything even though the dead money problems are erased from the books in the new CBA and we're 20m below the cap? I still haven't heard any rational explanation for this beyond the most likely explanation (i.e. Bowlen is a flaming POS).
How about......not throwing good money away, or spending yourself into a hole, like Shanahan used to do at the end of his time here. Face it, the best way to build is through the draft and Shanahan was notorious for reaching in the first coupla rounds and then spending like a wild man in FA.
When he starts spending, we'll who is the "we" you are talking about? don't include THIS fan in your group ...consider giving him the benefit of the doubt. But so long as he continues his miserly ways, its only reasonable to assume the worst....because that's the most likely explanation. It's not our fault that his outside business investments aren't doing well. hello, you DO realize this whole country is in a world of hurt, not just certain owners that you want to throw under the bus ...I don't care, its not relevant. It has nothing to do with the team. Really, finances AREN'T relevant to a business? Would you like a job at the white house, our "experts" keep leaving, we need some more...If you can't hack it anymore, then GTFO old man. Just get out. We need to make real investments if we're going to do well. We can't get by this way.Where is all this blind hate coming from? Shalala really pissing you off, OLD man? Back off Bowlen. He's doing the right thing this season, even though he took a left turn with McDaniels. Nobody's perfect.

Bronx33
09-05-2011, 09:38 PM
You are now officially the Buffalo Bills.



And you're the st louis cardinals.

Kaylore
09-05-2011, 09:46 PM
I think the Broncos believe they won't make the playoffs either way, so Bowlen might as well line his pockets with the (our) money, instead.

Really? You honestly believe that the coaches and front office want to start Tebow but Bowlen told them not to to save money?

Come on...

Momentum
09-05-2011, 09:46 PM
Cannot wait until Tebow is gone, really. Cut him Orton AND Quinn next year if we don't make the playoffs. There I said it.

SoCalBronco
09-05-2011, 09:49 PM
Really? You honestly believe that the coaches and front office want to start Tebow but Bowlen told them not to to save money?

Come on...

No...my comment went to the issue of spending, not Tebow.

The Joker
09-05-2011, 09:50 PM
And you're the st louis cardinals.

Nah, they're just still the Chiefs.

Anyway, whole thing sounds a bit OTT to me, as has been said I can't see a guy like Fox accepting that he has to start a certain QB because of finances.

OABB
09-05-2011, 09:53 PM
Great, another 5 pages trying to figure out why Tebow sucks and can't figure out how to play under center.

funny I thought it was about why the better qb isnt starting.

OABB
09-05-2011, 09:59 PM
Really? You honestly believe that the coaches and front office want to start Tebow but Bowlen told them not to to save money?

Come on...

it makes more sense than anything else imo.

uplink
09-05-2011, 10:03 PM
Bowlen is also switching to white helmets to save on paint and changing the team to the Denver Misers. Here is next years model.

McDman
09-05-2011, 11:03 PM
They tried to trade Orton and he blocked it, that's the argument all the anti-Orton people have been using when someone brings up the team chemistry/locker room issue.

If they tried to trade Kyle then I really doubt they were worried about Tebow's contract.

McDman
09-05-2011, 11:13 PM
The Sb from last year is on. 2 teams built thru the draft.

Wash rinse repeat.

Seriously. If we have another couple drafts like the one we just had people are going to stop crying about the slightly above average talent we passed on in FA this year.

It's amazing to me that people here are already going crazy about our new front office and it all stems from one player. Good God.

Popps
09-05-2011, 11:29 PM
They tried to trade Orton and he blocked it, that's the argument all the anti-Orton people have been using when someone brings up the team chemistry/locker room issue.

If they tried to trade Kyle then I really doubt they were worried about Tebow's contract.

Yea, that's going to be a tough one for people to explain away.

That's goofy, tinfoil hat-****.

If Tebow stepped up and outplayed Orton in camp or PS, he would have had the gig. Every single credible account I read from camp said the kid was struggling mightily.

Fox wasn't going to stake his new career opp on polarized QB who was in the minds of most... drafted too high and not an NFL-ready QB. That is, unless the kid came into camp and kicked royal ass. He didn't, and that's the end of the conversation.

The staff will take the safer route by their professional estimation.... and allow Tebow to learn more before he takes over.

The fans will bitch an moan, but that's just what fans do. If it wasn't this, it would be something else.

Personally... I'm just excited for Broncos football again. Orton starts... cool, I see some upside in that. Tebow starts... cool, I see some upside in that.

Just bring on the season.

24champ
09-05-2011, 11:52 PM
There are better examples to point out Bowlen's cheapness but this isn't it.

Tebow's not ready, whether his contract is for 10 million, 20 million, 100 million...

He did not wow anyone in Camp, bottom line is you got to earn the starting spot.

fontaine
09-06-2011, 03:04 AM
I wouldn't put ANYTHING past Pat Bowlen. He's already brought a tremendous amount of harm to this franchise and is clearly taking advantage of the fact that for two years, there will be no cap floor. Why are we still not spending anything even though the dead money problems are erased from the books in the new CBA and we're 20m below the cap? I still haven't heard any rational explanation for this beyond the most likely explanation (i.e. Bowlen is a flaming POS).

When he starts spending, we'll consider giving him the benefit of the doubt. But so long as he continues his miserly ways, its only reasonable to assume the worst....because that's the most likely explanation. It's not our fault that his outside business investments aren't doing well. I don't care, its not relevant. It has nothing to do with the team. If you can't hack it anymore, then GTFO old man. Just get out. We need to make real investments if we're going to do well. We can't get by this way.

This post is bull.

Spending does not guarantee victory.

The lifeblood of any perennial playoff team has been, is, will be drafting right. Bowlen could issue a blank cheque every offseason but would have made any difference to McD pissing away our high draft picks like a bunch of magic beans?

fontaine
09-06-2011, 03:13 AM
As a matter of fact, the premise of this entire thread is just ass.

Who are the idiots who expect us to believe QBs ARE NOT the only ones with playing time related incentives?

Hell, guys like Beadles/D Thomas/Von Miller/Moreno/Ayers ALL have playing time based incentives that total up to millions more and those guys either started or played significant time (or are slated to start like Von Miller) but why think about things logically when it's so much more fun to wildly speculate in a QB cluster ****?

fontaine
09-06-2011, 03:27 AM
Moreno's contract:

8/7/2009: Signed a five-year, $16.7 million contract. The deal contains $13.125 million guaranteed, including a second-year roster bonus of $3.775 million. Another $6.3 million is available through incentives. The Broncos can exercise an option year in 2014 by paying Moreno $5.08 million. 2011: $1 million, 2012: $855,000, 2013: $1.7 million, 2014: Club Option, 2015: Free Agent

6.3 mill in incentives huh?

D Thomas:

7/31/2010: Signed a five-year, $12.155 million contract. The deal includes $9.35 million guaranteed. Another $3.345 million is available through incentives. 2011: $1,637,500, 2012: $1.965 million, 2013: $2,292,500, 2014: $2.62 million, 2015: Free Agent

That's what? Almost 10 million in incentives?

The coaching staff has done everything to get these players on the field. Hell, usually Moreno comes off the field not because of a call from the sidelines but because he's too gassed. Thomas hasn't been placed in the PUP list this year in an effort to get him as much playing time as possible.

I guess the "Run down the franchise by being cheap" memo doesn't apply to anyone other than QBs right?

How desperately stupid.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-06-2011, 04:07 AM
Alright, I wanted to set a few things straight with this theory and the purpose in posting about it.


First, my issue is with the front office lying about many things after a massive and unprecedented Front Office PR stunt promising...no deceit, but openness and candor. We're all aware of that. We were promised a full open QB competition. Once Orton was not traded that proved to be a falsity.


And at quarterback. Fox reiterated that Kyle Orton, Tim Tebow​ and Brady Quinn​ will be in wide-open competition when training camp starts.

"I've said it before and I mean it. It'll be a competition," Fox said of the quarterbacks. "Competition is what this game's about, whether if it's an opponent or a depth chart. It's been this way as long as I can remember."

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_18319465#ixzz1X9aFvWPg


Trade got blown up, okay, lets have that QB competition after all. Wait, what is that Mr. Schefter? Orton is determined to be our starter before training camp just because the trade fell through?

It seems that any remaining flicker of hope was blown out today by ESPN's Adam Schefter. He says Orton will remain with the Broncos and will be their starter next year. Any trade, he claims, is "not going to happen."

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2011/08/kyle_orton_trade_definitely_no.php


Holy sh*t, what happened to the competition we were promised? What could possibly make Fox lie to us like that? What finances and contracts? No way. (Refer to OP, though my links were not included).






Now, a few things I read (and I appreciate this only being 6 pages, the 30 page hog at Mania is killing me), which I wanted to clarify my opinion and beliefs:

1) If Orton was traded, I think Quinn would have started. Somehow, someway, we would have started Quinn for half the season, before inserting Tebow once 55% playing time was not possible. That way neither triggered their escalators. If/when Orton gets hurt, and it's early, I think we'll see the same behavior.

2) Tebow's contract escalators work as follows: 55% of snaps, 2 of his first 3 years and a Playoff birth at any point doubles the contract. The above plus 2 playoff births within his first 4 years triples his contract. And that's moving forward. Those extra sums for the years already in the books (2-3 years by the time these would kick in) would go towards the last couple years. The last two years of Tebow's contract hitting all the escalators would put him in the 10+ million per year category. Also, the odds of not hitting these escalators are massively improved by sitting Tebow this year. For one, it removes completely one escalator from immediate concern. He doesn't hit 55% this year, you can play him all you want in 2012 before deciding on whether you want to go all in 2013. That's the magic year. Doing things the way we are doing it will allow us to play Tebow full time in 2012 and then dump or keep him based on that. We'd probably renegotiate if we like him.

3) Tebow v. Orton v. Quinn. I don't give a crap about any of them. Tebow is the most exciting, so I'd probably like to watch him the most. I'm angry the Front Office lied after coming out and saying they wouldn't lie. And then acting like they had a QB competition, which by almost any definition, clearly never took place. Finances being the reason.

4) I would do the same thing if I were GM or CFO. It makes financial sense, not only this year, but for the next three years. This decision could decide roughly 30 million dollars. We had trouble signing waiver claims for a couple hundred thousand. They have to factor this in.

5) Bowlen only owns a majority share of the Broncos. He has quite a lot of debt. And his real estate ventures are sunk costs. With revenue sharing, Tebow, whom has now dropped significantly in merchandise sales (prior to this season) only helps with a 1/32% share of merchandise revenue. Also, the Broncos already sell out. Someone said playing Tebow generates more money for Bowlen. How? Playing Tebow probably makes Bowlen pay 11-22 million more for the same thing he can get for 11 million if he sits him this year.

6) Fox would go for this because he prefers veterans. He probably loves it. Orton is a good QB. Tim is all potential. Brady is brady. Orton probably does give the team the best chance to win now, it's a shame they didn't let him prove it and just shut everyone up. They couldn't take a risk Quinn or especially Tebow outplayed him. They also probably didn't want Orton to be broken in half behind the 2nd string O-line and have to pay him 9 million for no production. Too bad Orlando Franklin is going to get him killed at some point anyway.



Anyhow, it's just a theory I tried to back up with as much supporting evidence as possible. I respect those who disagree. It was the only answer I had to why we failed to have the starting QB competition, why we were not active in Free Agency, why after 7 months of pumping up the waiver wire to unheard of levels, we decided to pass on it. Why we are sitting 20 million under the cap. The only common conclusion is Bowlen is cash strapped.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-06-2011, 04:10 AM
Moreno's contract:

8/7/2009: Signed a five-year, $16.7 million contract. The deal contains $13.125 million guaranteed, including a second-year roster bonus of $3.775 million. Another $6.3 million is available through incentives. The Broncos can exercise an option year in 2014 by paying Moreno $5.08 million. 2011: $1 million, 2012: $855,000, 2013: $1.7 million, 2014: Club Option, 2015: Free Agent

6.3 mill in incentives huh?

D Thomas:

7/31/2010: Signed a five-year, $12.155 million contract. The deal includes $9.35 million guaranteed. Another $3.345 million is available through incentives. 2011: $1,637,500, 2012: $1.965 million, 2013: $2,292,500, 2014: $2.62 million, 2015: Free Agent

That's what? Almost 10 million in incentives?

The coaching staff has done everything to get these players on the field. Hell, usually Moreno comes off the field not because of a call from the sidelines but because he's too gassed. Thomas hasn't been placed in the PUP list this year in an effort to get him as much playing time as possible.

I guess the "Run down the franchise by being cheap" memo doesn't apply to anyone other than QBs right?

How desperately stupid.


What are the specific incentives?

If its playing time, DeMaryius is going to miss those. Moreno probably as well since he's now in a 50/50 time share with McGahee if the preseason was any indication.

We're already being cheap.

Here's a report by Ted Sundquist when he was with Denver about how he had to pull shenanigans due to cash flow issues with bonuses:

http://tedsundquist38.com/2011/08/04/it%e2%80%99s-never-really-been-about-the-cap/

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-06-2011, 04:17 AM
MUG?

This is the same guy saying Von Miller sucks, right?

Cool. Keep us updated.


Never said that.

I did however break down in depth every play by Von Miller (and the rest of our starters) this preseason. He struggled badly against the run and really badly in his LB drops, often confused as to where to line up and whom to cover. Rookie stuff. He'll get better.

I give you the exact quarter, time, and description of what to look for. About 60 hours of work because I'm sick and have nothing else to do. It's thorough, it's completely accurate, and anyone can check it themselves if they think I'm a liar or incompetent to break down film.


Preseason 1
http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?t=191422


Preseason 2
http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?t=192164


Preseason 3
http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?t=192538

Cito Pelon
09-06-2011, 05:15 AM
From the OP:

And you have to wonder about Tebow's future here due to his contract. A contract signed before the rookie wage scale. If Tebow plays 70% of the snaps in 2013, his contract doubles to 22.5 million and if the team makes multiple playoffs under Tebow and he achieves leaguewide awards his contract triples to 33 million.

Actually, Tebow's contract is:

"The total value of Tebow's contract can escalate to $33 million if the Broncos reach the playoffs multiple times in his first four years, he has multiple top 5 QB rankings, and he has multiple league honors such as NFL MVP and Super Bowl MVP."

So why would Bowlen be trying to hold Tebow back?

Tebow is guaranteed about $10 million over the 5-yr rookie contract. So why would Bowlen hold Tebow back for another $23 million over 5 years if Tebow was capable enough to make those incentives?

I'm sure Bowlen would be ecstatic to pay Tebow an extra $4.6 million per year to make those incentives. Just a stupid OP, what a surprise.

And, I have to add, those that agreed with the OP . . . . well . . . . .

Agamemnon
09-06-2011, 05:50 AM
31 attempts, he has 2 completions of more than 30 yards. You tell me how that is stretching the field or was that not a truth you wanted to hear?

2 out of 31 is actually a pretty high ratio. You've actually watched the game of football before right?

Cito Pelon
09-06-2011, 05:52 AM
Alright, I wanted to set a few things straight with this theory and the purpose in posting about it.

. . . ..

I can see your POV, but it seems to me the opposite would hold true. It would behoove Bowlen to FORCE Tebow to be the starter, therefore Tebow would reach his $33 million incentives. Which is actually only $23 million over Tebow's guaranteed $10 million.

So I'm having a hard time understanding why Bowlen would want to hold Tebow back from a Super Bowl MVP, League MVP, multiple playoff seasons for an extra $4.7 million per year over the 5-year rookie contract.

Agamemnon
09-06-2011, 05:56 AM
I can see your POV, but it seems to me the opposite would hold true. It would behoove Bowlen to FORCE Tebow to be the starter, therefore Tebow would reach his $33 million incentives. Which is actually only $23 million over Tebow's guaranteed $10 million.

So I'm having a hard time understanding why Bowlen would want to hold Tebow back from a Super Bowl MVP, League MVP, multiple playoff seasons for an extra $4.7 million per year over the 5-year rookie contract.

He doesn't have the money to pay him the incentives?

fontaine
09-06-2011, 06:08 AM
What are the specific incentives?

If its playing time, DeMaryius is going to miss those. Moreno probably as well since he's now in a 50/50 time share with McGahee if the preseason was any indication.

We're already being cheap.

Here's a report by Ted Sundquist when he was with Denver about how he had to pull shenanigans due to cash flow issues with bonuses:

http://tedsundquist38.com/2011/08/04/it%e2%80%99s-never-really-been-about-the-cap/

And then there's Ayers, Beadles etc etc basically any high draft pick in the first two rounds will have some incentives based on playing time etc.

Yet somehow, all those players playing, starting, being rushed back to the field instead of conveniently placed on the PUP list (like Thomas) won't cost Bowlen etc?

Of course they will.

You're basic argument regarding the QB competition is based around dollars yet there are numerous examples up and down the roster where money isn't coming into it.

You believe what you want to believe fine. Just don't expect everyone to buy into it when there are other examples to the contrary.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-06-2011, 07:02 AM
I can see your POV, but it seems to me the opposite would hold true. It would behoove Bowlen to FORCE Tebow to be the starter, therefore Tebow would reach his $33 million incentives. Which is actually only $23 million over Tebow's guaranteed $10 million.

So I'm having a hard time understanding why Bowlen would want to hold Tebow back from a Super Bowl MVP, League MVP, multiple playoff seasons for an extra $4.7 million per year over the 5-year rookie contract.

Because Orton is guaranteed 6 million this season no matter what. That's about the total amount of bonus money we paid out to our Free Agents.

Meanwhile, you could draft Andrew Luck, or any of the other QB prospects next year in round 1. The #1 overall pick's contract would be 22 million with escalators. The #25 picks contract would be almost 8 million, with escalators.

Arguably, Bowlen could get Luck for cheaper, or maybe a Nick Foles, Landry Jones, or Matt Barkley for around 10 million for 4 years.


It comes down to faith in Tebow. Maybe they don't have any.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-06-2011, 07:12 AM
And then there's Ayers, Beadles etc etc basically any high draft pick in the first two rounds will have some incentives based on playing time etc.

Yet somehow, all those players playing, starting, being rushed back to the field instead of conveniently placed on the PUP list (like Thomas) won't cost Bowlen etc?

Of course they will.

You're basic argument regarding the QB competition is based around dollars yet there are numerous examples up and down the roster where money isn't coming into it.

You believe what you want to believe fine. Just don't expect everyone to buy into it when there are other examples to the contrary.


Yes, but Tebow is special because of how the contract is worded.

The other non-QB draft selections probably don't have 22 million in incentives combined. Maybe they do, but you get the point. We're talking a lot more money here.

Also, Tebow's contract is easily manipulated. You don't play him for this year, you put yourself in position to avoid all or most escalators, and make it really hard on Tebow to reach them. And you get him cheap for half of this season and all of next season before having to decide on his future with the team for 2013. There are still a lot of questions with Tebow that require answering before the organization goes all in. And next draft looks like a QB doozy. With Orton locked in at a minimum of 6 million, might as well keep your options open.

Again though, my issue is with the front office lying to us about the open QB competition that never took place. The team decided to go with Orton the day the Miami trade fell through. They instantly changed course. Other than finances, what could have caused that to occur? It was before camp.

oubronco
09-06-2011, 07:15 AM
Yea, that's going to be a tough one for people to explain away.

That's goofy, tinfoil hat-****.

If Tebow stepped up and outplayed Orton in camp or PS, he would have had the gig. Every single credible account I read from camp said the kid was struggling mightily.

Fox wasn't going to stake his new career opp on polarized QB who was in the minds of most... drafted too high and not an NFL-ready QB. That is, unless the kid came into camp and kicked royal ass. He didn't, and that's the end of the conversation.

The staff will take the safer route by their professional estimation.... and allow Tebow to learn more before he takes over.

The fans will b**** an moan, but that's just what fans do. If it wasn't this, it would be something else.

Personally... I'm just excited for Broncos football again. Orton starts... cool, I see some upside in that. Tebow starts... cool, I see some upside in that.

Just bring on the season.

Rep

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-06-2011, 07:36 AM
Oh looky what was in the paper today...if Orton gets hurt, Quinn is the primary backup. And I'll go ahead and predict he'll start just long enough until Tebow can only play up to 54% of the team's snaps.





Today's question about the Broncos comes from Darryl McKinney.

Q: Why hasn't Brady Quinn been cut? The Broncos would be better off carrying another defensive player than a third-string quarterback.

A: Not only are the Broncos carrying three quarterbacks on the 53-man roster, they signed undrafted rookie quarterback Adam Weber​ to their practice squad.

That's a lot of quarterbacks for the limited amount of work anybody not named Kyle Orton is going to get during practices. But only one of those quarterbacks second-year pro Tim Tebow is under contract beyond this season.

If Orton gets hurt this season and has to leave a game for good or miss some playing time, Quinn is the primary backup. That's why Quinn, a former first-round draft pick from Notre Dame, wasn't released.

If Orton stays healthy this season, Tebow figures to get more playing time than Quinn because of the situational duties Tebow will have.

The Broncos have some plays in the offense specially designed for Tebow, run-pass options at various spots on the field. So look for Tebow to get some playing time even if Orton stays healthy.

During practices before each game, Orton will take almost all of the snaps with Denver's No. 1 offense. Quinn and Tebow will share whatever snaps are left.

Weber, a former Big Ten star at Minnesota, will be the scout team's quarterback


http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_18830600

McDman
09-06-2011, 07:41 AM
Alright, I wanted to set a few things straight with this theory and the purpose in posting about it.


First, my issue is with the front office lying about many things after a massive and unprecedented Front Office PR stunt promising...no deceit, but openness and candor. We're all aware of that. We were promised a full open QB competition. Once Orton was not traded that proved to be a falsity.



http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_18319465#ixzz1X9aFvWPg


Trade got blown up, okay, lets have that QB competition after all. Wait, what is that Mr. Schefter? Orton is determined to be our starter before training camp just because the trade fell through?

How do you know they didn't see how inconsistent and inaccurate Tebow was and decide to put Orton ahead of him when he came back? Just because one guy is the starter doesn't mean it isn't a competition. If the second string guy performs well enough and the first string guy does not then there will probably be a lot closer of a competition.

From everything I have read and heard, Orton has never been in jeopardy of losing the one spot because he has played well in camp. Tebow on the other hand has been wildly inconsistent, he'll make a great play and follow it up with a head scratching play. Go back and look at John Fox coached teams and tell me which QB you think he is likely to play.

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2011/08/kyle_orton_trade_definitely_no.php


Holy sh*t, what happened to the competition we were promised? What could possibly make Fox lie to us like that? What finances and contracts? No way. (Refer to OP, though my links were not included).






Now, a few things I read (and I appreciate this only being 6 pages, the 30 page hog at Mania is killing me), which I wanted to clarify my opinion and beliefs:

1) If Orton was traded, I think Quinn would have started. Somehow, someway, we would have started Quinn for half the season, before inserting Tebow once 55% playing time was not possible. That way neither triggered their escalators. If/when Orton gets hurt, and it's early, I think we'll see the same behavior.

Again, this is just tin foil hat, MacGruder bs. You have no idea whether this is true or not. Once again by all accounts in camp Quinn looked really good, so if he was was named starter it wasn't because of the money. If you're going by game performance Quinn actually played very well in the second game. Unfortunately for him he sh1t the bed in the fourth. Whether he was starting or not would have nothing to do with the money.

2) Tebow's contract escalators work as follows: 55% of snaps, 2 of his first 3 years and a Playoff birth at any point doubles the contract. The above plus 2 playoff births within his first 4 years triples his contract. And that's moving forward. Those extra sums for the years already in the books (2-3 years by the time these would kick in) would go towards the last couple years. The last two years of Tebow's contract hitting all the escalators would put him in the 10+ million per year category. Also, the odds of not hitting these escalators are massively improved by sitting Tebow this year. For one, it removes completely one escalator from immediate concern. He doesn't hit 55% this year, you can play him all you want in 2012 before deciding on whether you want to go all in 2013. That's the magic year. Doing things the way we are doing it will allow us to play Tebow full time in 2012 and then dump or keep him based on that. We'd probably renegotiate if we like him.

3) Tebow v. Orton v. Quinn. I don't give a crap about any of them. Tebow is the most exciting, so I'd probably like to watch him the most. I'm angry the Front Office lied after coming out and saying they wouldn't lie. And then acting like they had a QB competition, which by almost any definition, clearly never took place. Finances being the reason.

Again, this is speculation by you. To say someone has lied you need proof, not speculation.

4) I would do the same thing if I were GM or CFO. It makes financial sense, not only this year, but for the next three years. This decision could decide roughly 30 million dollars. We had trouble signing waiver claims for a couple hundred thousand. They have to factor this in.

No it doesn't. If they thought Tebow gave us a better shot at winning they would play him. Tebow equals automatic sell outs and jersey sales. Plus, if they thought he could us to the playoffs that's extar money right there.

Where did you see that we cannot afford some couple hundred thousand dollar signings? Could it be we didn't see anyone we really like? Maybe these guys actually have a plan and it isn't a one year fix-it-up type deal. Seeing as how solid our draft was I'm going to go ahead and put faith in them that they can get the job done without turning into the Redskins.

5) Bowlen only owns a majority share of the Broncos. He has quite a lot of debt. And his real estate ventures are sunk costs. With revenue sharing, Tebow, whom has now dropped significantly in merchandise sales (prior to this season) only helps with a 1/32% share of merchandise revenue. Also, the Broncos already sell out. Someone said playing Tebow generates more money for Bowlen. How? Playing Tebow probably makes Bowlen pay 11-22 million more for the same thing he can get for 11 million if he sits him this year.

It technically sells out but people are not there. When Tebow plays eve seat will be full.

6) Fox would go for this because he prefers veterans. He probably loves it. Orton is a good QB. Tim is all potential. Brady is brady. Orton probably does give the team the best chance to win now, it's a shame they didn't let him prove it and just shut everyone up. They couldn't take a risk Quinn or especially Tebow outplayed him. They also probably didn't want Orton to be broken in half behind the 2nd string O-line and have to pay him 9 million for no production. Too bad Orlando Franklin is going to get him killed at some point anyway.

I'd say you answered you're question why Orton is starting right there.

Anyhow, it's just a theory I tried to back up with as much supporting evidence as possible. I respect those who disagree. It was the only answer I had to why we failed to have the starting QB competition, why we were not active in Free Agency, why after 7 months of pumping up the waiver wire to unheard of levels, we decided to pass on it. Why we are sitting 20 million under the cap. The only common conclusion is Bowlen is cash strapped.

It was a well thought out post but I totally disagree with it. This is the NFL, not some secretive government agency conspiring about everything. When it comes down to it, winning is everything. If they truly thought Tebow could win us one more game than Orton, than he'd be playing.

I really feel like we were not involved in free agency because we did not see any long term investments on the market. This front office drafted very very well, I think this is the route they're shooting for. And it's not like we totally ignored free agency, we got Warren, who when healthy has proven to be a monster.


.

McDman
09-06-2011, 07:45 AM
Oh looky what was in the paper today...if Orton gets hurt, Quinn is the primary backup. And I'll go ahead and predict he'll start just long enough until Tebow can only play up to 54% of the team's snaps.








http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_18830600

Again, Quinn absolutely played God awful in that fourth preseason game. But by all accounts, fans, media and coaches, he played extremely well in camp and took huge strides from last year. Even in the second preseason game he looked really good.

Maybe they're not giving up on him after one terrible game. He is more the style of QB that Fox likes, so maybe they still see potential in him. It's crazy people were calling for his head after one game.

tsiguy96
09-06-2011, 07:47 AM
Again, Quinn absolutely played God awful in that fourth preseason game. But by all accounts, fans, media and coaches, he played extremely well in camp and took huge strides from last year. Even in the second preseason game he looked really good.

Maybe they're not giving up on him after one terrible game. He is more the style of QB that Fox likes, so maybe they still see potential in him. It's crazy people were calling for his head after one game.

this is silly. quinn had a good camp and an overall average to below average preseason games, however tebow has a below average camp but great preseason games...and quinn is the winner?

i heard it a few weeks ago, but anytime tebow touches the field it seems like something special happens.

Rohirrim
09-06-2011, 07:49 AM
http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?t=192962

Contracts Dictated which QB Started

Lost in all of our fan hoopla about the idea of these QBs competing to start was the inevitable fact that Tebow was not going to start. No chance, was never going to happen. And here's the factual contract data as to why:

Written into Tebow's contract is this qualifier "Tebow's contract DOUBLES from 11.25 million to 22.50 million if he plays 55% of the time in TWO of his first three seasons".

Meanwhile, Orton's contract this season? 9 Million, 6 million guaranteed. So, since no team would trade for Orton at franchise player money, and since Orton refused to renegotiate his contract, the only remaining option was to cut him and pay the 6 million. We weren't going to bench him and pay 9 million.

So, this was the dilemma, pay Orton millions and millions to not play AND double Tebow's contract, or keep Tebow on the bench and not hitting escalators while getting something for the 6 million you owe Orton no matter what.

And you have to wonder about Tebow's future here due to his contract. A contract signed before the rookie wage scale. If Tebow plays 70% of the snaps in 2013, his contract doubles to 22.5 million and if the team makes multiple playoffs under Tebow and he achieves leaguewide awards his contract triples to 33 million.

Meanwhile, the #1 overall selection this year, Cam Newton's contract? 4 Years, 22 million. Andrew Luck is looking at the same deal. And there are 3-4 other QBs likely to go in the Top 20 in the next draft for much cheaper deals in the strongest QB draft in quite some time.

And what about Brady Quinn you might ask? Well, if he plays 70% of our snaps, his contract goes from 700,000 to 6.6 million due to a 5.9 million escalator bonus.

Do you think this was a fair QB competition? Hell no. Orton was never not going to start. Not with Bowlen in a financial crises and unable to even make waiver claims because of financial concerns. Let alone not even being competitive on the open free agent market. We weren't going to pay Orton millions not to play.

We have this big Quinn versus Tebow versus Orton debate, and there probably was a true battle for the #2 spot (which we laughingly refused to name), but there was never a competition for the #1 spot. Finances dictated that. Period.

So if you wonder why Tebow or Quinn didn't play with the starters, or Orton with the 2nd team, this is why. The team knew what direction it was going months and months ago despite telling us it was a competition. Lying has been standard for the front office this offseason despite declarations of openness. Sure they tried to trade Orton's albatross of a contract, but no team was taking that unless Kyle re-negotiated and he made it clear he would not absent a pricy long term deal. Nobody in the NFL wants to give him that. And as for all the chatter about "Tebow being terrible", almost guaranteed it was planted by the front office to try and justify to fans why he wasn't given a chance to start.

Too bad for them the contract information was made public. A little research sure sheds some light on an awful lot of questions and confusing bait and switch comments by EFX.

What a crock of ****. Even a casual fan who knows nothing about football could watch these QBs play and decide which one is better. And it sure as hell ain't Tebow.

McDman
09-06-2011, 07:50 AM
this is silly. quinn had a good camp and an overall average to below average preseason games, however tebow has a below average camp but great preseason games...and quinn is the winner?

i heard it a few weeks ago, but anytime tebow touches the field it seems like something special happens.

No he had one terrible game and one good good.

And I wouldn't say Tebow had a great preseason, he had a good one. Stop looking at the stats for ten seconds and actually watch the game.

I agree that he will do something very special then follow it up with something equally as dumb. Once he figures out how to stop doing that then he may be ready to play.

Br0nc0Buster
09-06-2011, 07:54 AM
I guess Bowlen figures Tebow would sell more jerseys from the bench
or maybe keeping Tim on the bench would help sell the suites

He prolly though took the money he is saving by not playing Tebow to pay off every single denver reporter who was at training camp. I could be wrong but I dont remember a single person saying Tebow was better.

But I guess he made a couple of plays against vanilla defenses in an exhibition game, I guess that overrides hours and hours of evaluation based on preseason and practice against actual defensive schemes

The "Bowlen is broke" meme is now combining with the "Tebow is being sabotaged by the team" meme to create the ultimate force of stupidity and overreaction

fontaine
09-06-2011, 07:59 AM
Yes, but Tebow is special because of how the contract is worded.

The other non-QB draft selections probably don't have 22 million in incentives combined. Maybe they do, but you get the point. We're talking a lot more money here.

Also, Tebow's contract is easily manipulated. You don't play him for this year, you put yourself in position to avoid all or most escalators, and make it really hard on Tebow to reach them. And you get him cheap for half of this season and all of next season before having to decide on his future with the team for 2013. There are still a lot of questions with Tebow that require answering before the organization goes all in. And next draft looks like a QB doozy. With Orton locked in at a minimum of 6 million, might as well keep your options open.

Again though, my issue is with the front office lying to us about the open QB competition that never took place. The team decided to go with Orton the day the Miami trade fell through. They instantly changed course. Other than finances, what could have caused that to occur? It was before camp.


1. You could make a similar argument for ANY rookie/2nd year player in any position with a similar incentive based contract who hasn't taken over from a veteran player. You could make that argument, doesn't mean it would make you right.

2. There is absolutely nothing, and I mean nothing, in Tebow's game that is consistent. Not his center exchange when the ball is snapped, to completing a foward pass, to even his running skills which get him into trouble as much as getting positive yardeage.

The first one isn't a fact, the 2nd one is.

Like I said, you want to present your opinion as fact, then fine, go ahead, no one is going to stop you from looking foolish.

Especially when any Bronco fan will tell you that Bowlen is effectively paying for Three coaches this season IN CASH.
Still owing Shanahan, McDaniels to some amount (because an agreement was reached) and now Fox who gets 3 million.

So once again, other players are getting their incentives, Bowlen fired McD and has to play three coaches this season, but somehow when it comes to the QB situation, all previous logic goes stupid.

What makes this entire circle jerk even more pointless is that none of these clowns are even worth debating over. Orton is mediocrity defined, Brady is strictly a practice QB and Tebow is still working on completing a forward pass.

No more QB talk from me, I've wasted enough time on these guys.
:)

CEH
09-06-2011, 08:14 AM
Legwold has seen the contract and the escalator of $6MM has been paid. All other escalators reported are false so the story is far fetched

Unless someone wants to present a PDF of teh contract this is just a Tebownite trying to defend Tebow not playing right now or complain about Bowlen and EFX

vonqkilla
09-06-2011, 08:19 AM
Vic brought it up to legwold, dismissed it as hysterical tebow fan nonsense.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-06-2011, 08:25 AM
What a crock of ****. Even a casual fan who knows nothing about football could watch these QBs play and decide which one is better. And it sure as hell ain't Tebow.

Schefter reported the team decided that Orton would stay with them and be the starter before camp.

Nobody watched them play.

I've already linked quotes to Fox saying there would be an open competition to start at QB. We chose our starter before camp when the trade fell through.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-06-2011, 08:26 AM
I guess Bowlen figures Tebow would sell more jerseys from the bench
or maybe keeping Tim on the bench would help sell the suites

He prolly though took the money he is saving by not playing Tebow to pay off every single denver reporter who was at training camp. I could be wrong but I dont remember a single person saying Tebow was better.

But I guess he made a couple of plays against vanilla defenses in an exhibition game, I guess that overrides hours and hours of evaluation based on preseason and practice against actual defensive schemes

The "Bowlen is broke" meme is now combining with the "Tebow is being sabotaged by the team" meme to create the ultimate force of stupidity and overreaction


Revenue sharing. 1/32%. And Tebow has been in decline since before training camp. Most of the people that wanted his stuff, have it.

What is this money you are talking about?

Rohirrim
09-06-2011, 08:27 AM
Schefter reported the team decided that Orton would stay with them and be the starter before camp.

Nobody watched them play.

I've already linked quotes to Fox saying there would be an open competition to start at QB. We chose our starter before camp when the trade fell through.

Do you think Fox watched film?

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-06-2011, 08:28 AM
1. You could make a similar argument for ANY rookie/2nd year player in any position with a similar incentive based contract who hasn't taken over from a veteran player. You could make that argument, doesn't mean it would make you right.

2. There is absolutely nothing, and I mean nothing, in Tebow's game that is consistent. Not his center exchange when the ball is snapped, to completing a foward pass, to even his running skills which get him into trouble as much as getting positive yardeage.

The first one isn't a fact, the 2nd one is.

Like I said, you want to present your opinion as fact, then fine, go ahead, no one is going to stop you from looking foolish.

Especially when any Bronco fan will tell you that Bowlen is effectively paying for Three coaches this season IN CASH.
Still owing Shanahan, McDaniels to some amount (because an agreement was reached) and now Fox who gets 3 million.

So once again, other players are getting their incentives, Bowlen fired McD and has to play three coaches this season, but somehow when it comes to the QB situation, all previous logic goes stupid.

What makes this entire circle jerk even more pointless is that none of these clowns are even worth debating over. Orton is mediocrity defined, Brady is strictly a practice QB and Tebow is still working on completing a forward pass.

No more QB talk from me, I've wasted enough time on these guys.
:)


I don't give a crap about any of our QBs. I care about being lied to and I posted links and quotes to prove that. You guys are turning this into a QB debate.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-06-2011, 08:29 AM
Do you think Fox watched film?


"I like the guys on our team right now, but I can't tell you how much yet. I've only spent one day with them," Fox said Monday. "You find out how much you like them when you get on the field with them. There's nothing like seeing them with the naked eye."

That applies to players at every position, but especially for players who will be at new positions in the Broncos' 4-3 defense. And at quarterback. Fox reiterated that Kyle Orton, Tim Tebow and Brady Quinn will be in wide-open competition when training camp starts.

"I've said it before and I mean it. It'll be a competition," Fox said of the quarterbacks. "Competition is what this game's about, whether if it's an opponent or a depth chart. It's been this way as long as I can remember."


http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_18319465

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-06-2011, 08:32 AM
Legwold has seen the contract and the escalator of $6MM has been paid. All other escalators reported are false so the story is far fetched

Unless someone wants to present a PDF of teh contract this is just a Tebownite trying to defend Tebow not playing right now or complain about Bowlen and EFX


Here, Legwold isn't informed.



Some details on the Tebow

Broncos rookie quarterback QB Tim Tebow warms up before the afternoon practice on Monday. (THE DENVER POST | JOHN LEYBA)deal:

Base salary

2010: $1.295 million (fully guaranteed)

2011: $1.618.75 million (fully guaranteed)

2012: $1.942.5 million (fully guaranteed)

2013: $2.266.75 million (fully guaranteed)

2014: $2.590.5 million ($567,500 guaranteed)


Advance/Signing bonus


$975,000 on Friday (salary reduced to $325,000)


$6.275 million due 29 days after start of 2011 league year. Typically season starts March 1, but it's written this way in case work stoppage delays start of season. (Salaries from 2011-14 reduced to offset advance)

One-time playing time bonus (contractually considered likely to be earned)

Tebow collects $1.537.5 million if he plays 35 percent of the offensive snaps in 2010, or 45 percent of the snaps in any of the seasons 2011-14. The bonus rolls over from year to year until Tebow reaches the playing-time threshold, and expires the first time he hits it.


Mid-tier incentives (Contractually considered unlikely to earn)

Value of Tebow's contract doubles from $11.25 million (including one-time playing time bonus) to $22.5 million if he reaches multiple thresholds, including:


55 percent playing time in two of his first three seasons, 2010-12, or 70 percent playing time in 2013.

The Broncos make the playoffs, he reaches certain QB ranking thresholds, and receives unspecified honors.


Max value (contractually considered unlikely to earn)

The total value of Tebow's contract can escalate to $33 million if the Broncos reach the playoffs multiple times in his first four years, he has multiple top 5 QB rankings, and he has multiple league honors such as NFL MVP and Super Bowl MVP.



http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_15667056

vonqkilla
09-06-2011, 08:32 AM
Leggy was wrong about the escalators on the radio though.

Rohirrim
09-06-2011, 08:34 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_18319465

I don't know what you're complaining about. Anybody who watched the four preseason games knows that Orton outplayed Tebow. That doesn't make Orton a franchise QB. It just makes him better than Tebow. Fox's decision was made for him. Frankly, I put Orton in the Kubiak category; A great back-up if you had a franchise QB. Hopefully, the Broncos do what it takes to get Luck next year. I'll bet he'd beat out Orton for the starting slot in his first season.

vonqkilla
09-06-2011, 08:41 AM
I don't know what you're complaining about. Anybody who watched the four preseason games knows that Orton outplayed Tebow. That doesn't make Orton a franchise QB. It just makes him better than Tebow. Fox's decision was made for him. Frankly, I put Orton in the Kubiak category; A great back-up if you had a franchise QB. Hopefully, the Broncos do what it takes to get Luck next year. I'll bet he'd beat out Orton for the starting slot in his first season.

I thinks the pt is that mug thinks orton was handed the job due to contract and $ problems vs an open competition.

Being at camp a few times, Orton clearly better, at flag football.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-06-2011, 08:43 AM
I don't know what you're complaining about. Anybody who watched the four preseason games knows that Orton outplayed Tebow. That doesn't make Orton a franchise QB. It just makes him better than Tebow. Fox's decision was made for him. Frankly, I put Orton in the Kubiak category; A great back-up if you had a franchise QB. Hopefully, the Broncos do what it takes to get Luck next year. I'll bet he'd beat out Orton for the starting slot in his first season.


I'm complaining about an unprecedented PR stunt where the team sought out the fans with promises of being open and honest. They hired Elway in an effort to reconnect with us, promising no more deceit like there was under the McDaniels era.

Fox promises an open competition.

We decide to go with Orton before camp started once the Miami trade fell through.

And then, we have EFX's entire 7 month soap opera of coverage about their "plan" to improve the team. They talked up the #2 waiver priority more than anyone I've ever heard. They promised to be aggressive and attack Free Agency. All lies. And there's only two possibilities: 1) They weren't prepared for the cost of top players and crapiness of the waiver process, or 2) They knew they had financial limitation and misled us anyway to get us excited about the direction of the new regime.


I feel they went out of their way to extravagent levels to assure us they would operate honestly and openly, and I've seen anything but. THAT is what all of this is about.

misturanderson
09-06-2011, 08:43 AM
55 percent playing time in two of his first three seasons, 2010-12, or 70 percent playing time in 2013.

Doesn't this imply that he could play 100% of this year's snaps and still not receive the escalator as it wouldn't have happened in 2 years yet?

If they didn't like what he brought, they could dump him next year or send him back to the bench.

Br0nc0Buster
09-06-2011, 08:46 AM
Revenue sharing. 1/32%. And Tebow has been in decline since before training camp. Most of the people that wanted his stuff, have it.

What is this money you are talking about?

I know about rev sharing but still Tebow creates more money period.
I know the Gator homers have his stuff, but if this guy gets in there and is a stud he will still sell more merchandise, give the Broncos more facetime, etc...

Also I was joking about Bowlen using his money now to pay off reporters to say Tebow was worse in order to have to play him and play him in the future

The notion Tebow > Orton doesnt match up at all with the TC reports

Rohirrim
09-06-2011, 08:50 AM
I'm complaining about an unprecedented PR stunt where the team sought out the fans with promises of being open and honest. They hired Elway in an effort to reconnect with us, promising no more deceit like there was under the McDaniels era.

Fox promises an open competition.

We decide to go with Orton before camp started once the Miami trade fell through.

And then, we have EFX's entire 7 month soap opera of coverage about their "plan" to improve the team. They talked up the #2 waiver priority more than anyone I've ever heard. They promised to be aggressive and attack Free Agency. All lies. And there's only two possibilities: 1) They weren't prepared for the cost of top players and crapiness of the waiver process, or 2) They knew they had financial limitation and misled us anyway to get us excited about the direction of the new regime.


I feel they went out of their way to extravagent levels to assure us they would operate honestly and openly, and I've seen anything but. THAT is what all of this is about.

You sound like one of those 9/11 conspiracy guys. Football isn't that complicated. Orton gives the Broncos a better chance to win. Fox is the coach. The more games he wins, the better chance he has to keep his job.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-06-2011, 08:50 AM
I know about rev sharing but still Tebow creates more money period

Also I was joking about Bowlen using his money now to pay off reporters to say Tebow was worse in order to have to play him and play him in the future

The notion Tebow > Orton doesnt match up at all with the TC reports


I don't really have an opinion on the QBs. I think they are all somewhat good. I know people are trying to say this is about Tebow v. Orton, but it's not. I made that entire thread to rant about apparent front office deceit and lies after they promised us they would not.

CEH
09-06-2011, 08:51 AM
Here, Legwold isn't informed.







http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_15667056

How do you know Kils is not mis-informed. One is a 20 year beat writer for the NFL. The other a vagabond that has been reporting on football, baseball you name it. Why dismiss Legwold so quickly

Anyways to get to this

Mid-tier incentives (Contractually considered unlikely to earn)

Value of Tebow's contract doubles from $11.25 million (including one-time playing time bonus) to $22.5 million if he reaches multiple thresholds, including:


55 percent playing time in two of his first three seasons, 2010-12, or 70 percent playing time in 2013.


The Broncos make the playoffs, he reaches certain QB ranking thresholds, and receives unspecified honors.

Mutiple including meaning all or nothing i.e. Contractually considered unlikely to earn

Tebow has to not only play but make the playoffs.

How is making the playoffs with Tebow a bad thing for the Denver Broncos?

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-06-2011, 08:51 AM
You sound like one of those 9/11 conspiracy guys. Football isn't that complicated. Orton gives the Broncos a better chance to win. Fox is the coach. The more games he wins, the better chance he has to keep his job.

I mean, I have the quotes. I've provided the links. They lied to the fanbase. It makes me angry. Some folks don't give a crap.

And I really don't care about Orton and Tebow. This is about the trust that was promised.

peacepipe
09-06-2011, 08:54 AM
[QUOTE]I'm complaining about an unprecedented PR stunt where the team sought out the fans with promises of being open and honest. They hired Elway in an effort to reconnect with us, promising no more deceit like there was under the McDaniels era.

Fox promises an open competition.

We decide to go with Orton before camp started once the Miami trade fell through.
somebody was going to get penciled in as starter as a matter of practicality. just cause someone is penciled in as the starter at the beginning of training camp doesn't mean they'll be the starter at the end of PS. Orton was the better QB in practice & in games.

Rohirrim
09-06-2011, 08:56 AM
I mean, I have the quotes. I've provided the links. They lied to the fanbase. It makes me angry. Some folks don't give a crap.

And I really don't care about Orton and Tebow. This is about the trust that was promised.

I think Tebow was given every chance to take the job from Orton. He couldn't pull it off.

Beantown Bronco
09-06-2011, 08:57 AM
Also I was joking about Bowlen using his money now to pay off reporters to say Tebow was worse

....only because he's too cheap to pay anyone off.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-06-2011, 08:57 AM
How do you know Kils is not mis-informed. One is a 20 year beat writer for the NFL. The other a vagabond that has been reporting on football, baseball you name it. Why dismiss Legwold so quickly

Anyways to get to this

Mid-tier incentives (Contractually considered unlikely to earn)

Value of Tebow's contract doubles from $11.25 million (including one-time playing time bonus) to $22.5 million if he reaches multiple thresholds, including:


55 percent playing time in two of his first three seasons, 2010-12, or 70 percent playing time in 2013.


The Broncos make the playoffs, he reaches certain QB ranking thresholds, and receives unspecified honors.

Mutiple including meaning all or nothing i.e. Contractually considered unlikely to earn

Tebow has to not only play but make the playoffs.

How is making the playoffs with Tebow a bad thing for the Denver Broncos?


Because by sitting Tebow for half a year, 56% of the snaps, you can guarantee he can't ever hit that escalator until 2013. And you can play him the entirety of 2012. You also aren't eating Orton's 6-9 million contract.

I think on a practical side, most can agree this team is not going to the playoffs this year.

The risk is you start Tebow this year, he plays ok, starts next year, team gets to the playoffs despite just okay play. Now you have 11 million that just vested and must be prorated out over the next two years.

Maybe the front office isn't sold on Tebow yet. Not letting the 55% vest this season opens up their options drastically to evaluate him going forward. And if they can land Luck or an equivalent QB this year or in early 2013 for a 10-15 million 4 year contract at max value, they can cut or trade Tebow.

I believe it's about options. And saving money today.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-06-2011, 09:04 AM
Well again, Schefter reported that once the trade was dead, the team decided to go forward with Orton as the starter for the year. Camp wasn't even going yet. And I already quoted Fox saying he evaluates in person.

It seems that any remaining flicker of hope was blown out today by ESPN's Adam Schefter. He says Orton will remain with the Broncos and will be their starter next year. Any trade, he claims, is "not going to happen."

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2011/08/kyle_orton_trade_definitely_no.php

oubronco
09-06-2011, 09:05 AM
Well again, Schefter reported that once the trade was dead, the team decided to go forward with Orton as the starter for the year. Camp wasn't even going yet. And I already quoted Fox saying he evaluates in person.



http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2011/08/kyle_orton_trade_definitely_no.php

Couldn't have been the fact that Fox hadn't seen Tebow in camp yet and when he did he saw that Orton was better?

JJG
09-06-2011, 09:11 AM
From what I gather, MUG is a lawyer and is having some health issues (I hope you get better BTW). I'm guessing he's pretty good at spinning reality to paint the picture as he wants it to be seen. It's a valuable skill for a lawyer to have, and he doesn't want to get rusty during his time off...

CEH
09-06-2011, 09:18 AM
Because by sitting Tebow for half a year, 56% of the snaps, you can guarantee he can't ever hit that escalator until 2013. And you can play him the entirety of 2012. You also aren't eating Orton's 6-9 million contract.

I think on a practical side, most can agree this team is not going to the playoffs this year.

The risk is you start Tebow this year, he plays ok, starts next year, team gets to the playoffs despite just okay play. Now you have 11 million that just vested and must be prorated out over the next two years.

Maybe the front office isn't sold on Tebow yet. Not letting the 55% vest this season opens up their options drastically to evaluate him going forward. And if they can land Luck or an equivalent QB this year or in early 2013 for a 10-15 million 4 year contract at max value, they can cut or trade Tebow.

I believe it's about options. And saving money today.

Plus the contract had multiple escalators around QB play as well. What was in the DPO article was just a few specific items.

The Broncos make the playoffs, he reaches certain QB ranking thresholds, and receives unspecified honors


I'm pretty confident if Tebow hits all the multiple targets he will be a good long term QB

FrankieTwoThumbs
09-06-2011, 09:34 AM
Well again, Schefter reported that once the trade was dead, the team decided to go forward with Orton as the starter for the year. Camp wasn't even going yet. And I already quoted Fox saying he evaluates in person.



http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2011/08/kyle_orton_trade_definitely_no.php

You also quoted him as saying it was a open competition. Like most conspiracy theorists, you have quotes, you have links, you have numbers. All carefully cherrypicked, everything that does not fit is ignored or minimized. You decide what quotes he is lying on and which he is telling the truth, and big surprise, you decide on the way that supports your argument. You still need an enema.

PRBronco
09-06-2011, 09:43 AM
Hey MUG did you do a breakdown of the 1st team snaps for the Seahawks game? I loved your first two.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-06-2011, 09:51 AM
Hey MUG did you do a breakdown of the 1st team snaps for the Seahawks game? I loved your first two.

Yeah, took forever.

Offense
http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?t=192825

Defense
http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?t=192538

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-06-2011, 09:54 AM
Couldn't have been the fact that Fox hadn't seen Tebow in camp yet and when he did he saw that Orton was better?

Orton very well might be better, I just don't know how Fox could compare them with the team deciding to go with Orton as starter for the season the moment his contract couldn't be traded.

I mean, I guess you could say Shefter is wrong. And that some form of open competition happened in camp. Somewhere.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-06-2011, 09:59 AM
From what I gather, MUG is a lawyer and is having some health issues (I hope you get better BTW). I'm guessing he's pretty good at spinning reality to paint the picture as he wants it to be seen. It's a valuable skill for a lawyer to have, and he doesn't want to get rusty during his time off...

I am, pretty bad health issues. Life changing at least. And I appreciate the well wishes. Thank You.


If what I'm doing is spinning reality, it's accidental. I actually believe this. And I think it happens all the time when a team can get away with it. It's a business first and foremost.

Garcia Bronco
09-06-2011, 10:03 AM
Orton very well might be better, I just don't know how Fox could compare them with the team deciding to go with Orton as starter for the season the moment his contract couldn't be traded.

I mean, I guess you could say Shefter is wrong. And that some form of open competition happened in camp. Somewhere.

If Tim had out-performed Orton then he would have gotten the spot. Part of the deal is the vets in locker room have to believe, there is no way the FO keeps that lockerroom by benching Orton.

This is all for the best if you really like Tebow and want him to be the QB in Denver, because if Tebow starts we finsih dead last and we would draft Andrew Luck and Tebow would be gone anyway

Boobs McGee
09-06-2011, 10:04 AM
Well again, Schefter reported that once the trade was dead, the team decided to go forward with Orton as the starter for the year. Camp wasn't even going yet. And I already quoted Fox saying he evaluates in person.



http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2011/08/kyle_orton_trade_definitely_no.php

IMO, Schefter was just parroting what had already been said by Fox the entire time, even as far back as his first few pressers post hire. It was clear from the start of his tenure here, that Kyle was the starter incumbent. So, naturally, when you've declared someone in that right, the various news outlets are going to use the same handle.

That being said, once the competition started, he WAS the starter until displaced by another player. Obviously, from what the coaches saw, no one else was capable of taking that job from him. The fact that we never saw the actual depth chart change names doesn't mean a competition wasn't taking place. Isn't it a possibility that the differences in their respective games were SO GLARINGLY APPARENT that the competition was extremely quick? Like, quick enough to not merit any kind of written change that we needed to see?


As to Tim's contract, from the links you posted, The total value of Tebow's contract can escalate to $33 million if the Broncos reach the playoffs multiple times in his first four years, he has multiple top 5 QB rankings, and he has multiple league honors such as NFL MVP and Super Bowl MVP. The likelihood of all that happening is pretty low, IMO. Why would it have any bearing on the amount of money spent? Liike others have said, if Tim DID in fact reach all of those qualifiers, I don't think anyone would have a problem paying him, because we'd be kicking some SERIOUS ass.

It still blows my mind that people think coaches would actually sit the players giving them the BEST chance to win (in THEIR opinion...the coaches, not we as fans) in order to save money. That's just ass backwards. Coaches are there to give us our best chance at winning, period.

I appreciate your time and effort in this "theory", but it appears you're (along with many other fans) taking wordage too literally and spinning it into fact. There was a competition, no matter if Orton was listed as the starter from the beginning or not.

Br0nc0Buster
09-06-2011, 10:05 AM
Orton very well might be better, I just don't know how Fox could compare them with the team deciding to go with Orton as starter for the season the moment his contract couldn't be traded.

I mean, I guess you could say Shefter is wrong. And that some form of open competition happened in camp. Somewhere.

Look at the date of that, training camp had already started
The coaches had already gotten an opportunity to look at both qbs

Again this all matches up with the TC reports of Orton being much better than Tebow, at that point its up to Tebow to earn those reps

edit: just saw after I typed this Boobs pretty much said the same thing but in greater detail

jhns
09-06-2011, 10:05 AM
If Tim had out-performed Orton then he would have gotten the spot. Part of the deal is the vets in locker room have to believe, there is no way the FO keeps that lockerroom by benching Orton.

This is all for the best if you really like Tebow and want him to be the QB in Denver, because if Tebow starts we finsih dead last and we would draft Andrew Luck and Tebow would be gone anyway

That is a lot of delusion.

Garcia Bronco
09-06-2011, 10:06 AM
Look at the date of that, training camp had already started
The coaches had already gotten an opportunity to look at both qbs

Again this all matches up with the TC reports of Orton being much better than Tebow, at that point its up to Tebow to earn those reps

Exactly...they only had to look at them for a day and Tebow is clearly behind.

jhns
09-06-2011, 10:11 AM
Look at the date of that, training camp had already started
The coaches had already gotten an opportunity to look at both qbs

Again this all matches up with the TC reports of Orton being much better than Tebow, at that point its up to Tebow to earn those reps

Why would the date matter? Why do you need an article to know what that is telling you? Orton was named starter before camp. Orton got all first team reps when he came to camp... There was no open competition. The starter was not determined in camp. Tye starter was based on tape. Tape that clearly shows Tebow outplaying Orton in live games last season.

None of this is really a surprise. Fox loves veterans. Fox loves ****ty QBs.

oubronco
09-06-2011, 10:12 AM
Why would it matter the date? Why do you need an articleto know what that is telling you? Orton was named starter before camp. Orton got all first team reps when he came to camp... There was no open competition. The starter was not determined in camp. Tye starter was based on tape. Tape that clearly shows Tebow outplaying Orton in live games last season.

None of this is really a surprise. Fox loves veterans. Fox loves ****ty QBs.

Then why isn't Tebow starting?

Beantown Bronco
09-06-2011, 10:13 AM
The starter was based on tape. Tape that clearly shows Tebow outplaying Orton in live games last season.


By definition, both of these statements cannot be true facts.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-06-2011, 10:15 AM
IMO, Schefter was just parroting what had already been said by Fox the entire time, even as far back as his first few pressers post hire. It was clear from the start of his tenure here, that Kyle was the starter incumbent. So, naturally, when you've declared someone in that right, the various news outlets are going to use the same handle.

That being said, once the competition started, he WAS the starter until displaced by another player. Obviously, from what the coaches saw, no one else was capable of taking that job from him. The fact that we never saw the actual depth chart change names doesn't mean a competition wasn't taking place. Isn't it a possibility that the differences in their respective games were SO GLARINGLY APPARENT that the competition was extremely quick? Like, quick enough to not merit any kind of written change that we needed to see?


As to Tim's contract, from the links you posted, The total value of Tebow's contract can escalate to $33 million if the Broncos reach the playoffs multiple times in his first four years, he has multiple top 5 QB rankings, and he has multiple league honors such as NFL MVP and Super Bowl MVP. The likelihood of all that happening is pretty low, IMO. Why would it have any bearing on the amount of money spent? Liike others have said, if Tim DID in fact reach all of those qualifiers, I don't think anyone would have a problem paying him, because we'd be kicking some SERIOUS ass.

It still blows my mind that people think coaches would actually sit the players giving them the BEST chance to win (in THEIR opinion...the coaches, not we as fans) in order to save money. That's just ass backwards. Coaches are there to give us our best chance at winning, period.

I appreciate your time and effort in this "theory", but it appears you're (along with many other fans) taking wordage too literally and spinning it into fact. There was a competition, no matter if Orton was listed as the starter from the beginning or not.


One of the better disagreement posts so far. As with the others, I have to say you make sense and I could well be wrong. I believe I'm correct and have a sound basis for my reasoning, but it's just a theory, supported entirely by the business concept for maximizing profits. If folks believe NFL teams are run altruisticly to reward the fans, in a manner fair to the players, and with the goal of winning more important than the bottom line, I have to respect that. I don't believe that at all. I believe the Buffalo Bills, Pittsburgh Pirates, Oakland As, Florida Marlins, and now Denver Broncos are trying to maximize profits as a priority. But, just my opinion on that.

jhns
09-06-2011, 10:16 AM
By definition, both of these statements cannot be true facts.

Actually, they both can be true. You just aren't a smart person.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-06-2011, 10:17 AM
Look at the date of that, training camp had already started
The coaches had already gotten an opportunity to look at both qbs

Again this all matches up with the TC reports of Orton being much better than Tebow, at that point its up to Tebow to earn those reps

edit: just saw after I typed this Boobs pretty much said the same thing but in greater detail

August 3rd was the date of that article. Schefter was pretty clear that when the Dolphins trade fell through, Orton became our starter. Teams don't let players practice that they are potentially trading. That Dolphins deal had been dead for awhile.

TonyR
09-06-2011, 10:27 AM
Orton very well might be better, I just don't know how Fox could compare them with the team deciding to go with Orton as starter for the season the moment his contract couldn't be traded.

Probably a lot more to it than that. The coaches had multiple opportunities in camp to see both play, and probably saw that Tebow couldn't make throws and reads, couldn't execute plays, etc. that Orton had no problems with. You have to trust that the coaches are smart enough to see what's right in front of them and go with the guy they feel more confident in running the offense. I just hope they're smart enough to give Tebow some opportunities in the red zone.

Boobs McGee
09-06-2011, 10:34 AM
One of the better disagreement posts so far. As with the others, I have to say you make sense and I could well be wrong. I believe I'm correct and have a sound basis for my reasoning, but it's just a theory, supported entirely by the business concept for maximizing profits. If folks believe NFL teams are run altruisticly to reward the fans, in a manner fair to the players, and with the goal of winning more important than the bottom line, I have to respect that. I don't believe that at all. I believe the Buffalo Bills, Pittsburgh Pirates, Oakland As, Florida Marlins, and now Denver Broncos are trying to maximize profits as a priority. But, just my opinion on that.


And this is the fundamental difference between the two camps, so to speak.

I respect your opinion, and the research you've done, and you present it in a factual manner that's pretty refreshing. Even your incredible play by play breakdown of Von Miller (you used the word terrible, which INSTANTLY made me question your credibility haha, but after reading the entirety of the writeup it was justifiable at the time) was tough to swallow at first, but it was fact based and sound. THIS argument, IMO, has a little more to do with perception and opinion....which makes it a tougher sell.

Regardless, I can see where you're coming from, and respectfully disagree.

TheReverend
09-06-2011, 10:40 AM
If Tim had out-performed Orton then he would have gotten the spot. Part of the deal is the vets in locker room have to believe, there is no way the FO keeps that lockerroom by benching Orton.

This is all for the best if you really like Tebow and want him to be the QB in Denver, because if Tebow starts we finsih dead last and we would draft Andrew Luck and Tebow would be gone anyway

Sounds factual.

broncocalijohn
09-06-2011, 12:09 PM
I thinks the pt is that mug thinks orton was handed the job due to contract and $ problems vs an open competition.

Being at camp a few times, Orton clearly better, at flag football.

There was also a link about MUG (i guess he is a big wig poster at Broncos Country) being so upset that we didnt take a DE or DT in the draft, that he cannot admit that Von Miller is a great draft pick and puts him down as recently as right before our 3rd preseason (not sure if he still does fell this way since I do not go over to BC).
The conspiracy would need to cover all the media in Denver and also National media as they visit Dove Valley during TC. It seemed pretty clear that Orton outplayed Tebow throughout preseason. If Tebow outperformed Orton, then you might have a valid reason. This is all on Tebow and not the coaches who are here to win. As I stated in this thread earlier, Fox cannot afford another dismal run or he is done as a head coach. He is going to play the best players at any given position. Bowlen is not Al Davis controlling the puppets. Fox is far from a puppet and would have walked if he was told he needs to play Orton or Quinn based on Tebow's 11 million dollar "raise".
What we have here is MacGruder/Gaffney trying to tie Broncos football into a conspiracy.

gyldenlove
09-06-2011, 12:18 PM
I mean, I have the quotes. I've provided the links. They lied to the fanbase. It makes me angry. Some folks don't give a crap.

And I really don't care about Orton and Tebow. This is about the trust that was promised.

I just don't see how they lied, if I have a contest between Tiger Woods, a random club pro and a handicap 10 weekend golfer, it can be as open and honest as they come, but it is still not going to take me long to figure out that Tiger is the best and he is the guy I need to work with. The same here, rotating all 3 players with the 1st team all through camp and preseason would be highly detrimental to the team, especially with a short offseason and new coaches.

As it stands we had less time than usual to implement the playbook and terminology, if we had to cut that time in 3 and split it between the QBs we would have majorly handicapped our offense.

Frankly it is insane to believe that time should be or could be split beyond the first couple of days.

Basicly the choice came down to:

1. Do we want to optimize our chances of winning games this year? (Kyle Orton)
2. Do we expect Orton to be gone but figure we can extend Quinn and he lives up to the draft status? (Quinn)
3. We find out what we have in Tebow at all costs? (Tebow)

I think the decision came down to winning now and then working out the contract situations later.

broncocalijohn
09-06-2011, 12:29 PM
Also, if money was everything as MUG wants us to believe, why didnt we just cut Orton before he got his roster bonus and play Quinn and Tebow equally (this is MUG's first reasoning on his theory) for 2011?
Sorry, but trying to trade Orton and play both backups 50% of the starts for 2011 is insane and is a stretch to backup a theory. Far fetched. Adding the fact we didnt dump Orton to save bonus money on his contract.

24champ
09-06-2011, 01:03 PM
Fans forget that Tebow was really hurt by the lockout, he had no access to the coaches and the playbook in the offseason. He was behind Orton from the start, who already has a lot more experience as a starter.

Spider
09-06-2011, 01:18 PM
Fans forget that Tebow was really hurt by the lockout, he had no access to the coaches and the playbook in the offseason. He was behind Orton from the start, who already has a lot more experience as a starter.

well only a blind fool would think tebow doesnt have any talent , he does , he will be just fine in a year ....

TheDave
09-06-2011, 01:33 PM
I really don't want to read 200+ replies... But...

For some reason I just need to know this...

Who the hell is MUG?

Shananahan
09-06-2011, 01:44 PM
Who the hell is MUG?
Some guy from another board who is revered or something because he broke down all of the plays during the preseason games or something something.

He also posted here (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3280502&postcount=135) in this thread.

TheDave
09-06-2011, 01:46 PM
Some guy from another board who is revered or something because he broke down all of the plays during the preseason games or something something.

He also posted here (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3280502&postcount=135)in this thread.


Ahhhh... So this is another one to ignore.


Thanks... :thumbs:

fontaine
09-06-2011, 03:31 PM
I don't give a crap about any of our QBs. I care about being lied to and I posted links and quotes to prove that. You guys are turning this into a QB debate.

I've already addressed this in detail.

Tebow is still working on getting his center exchange right, learning when to run which has gotten him into trouble, and completing a forward pass.

Brady has the biggest case of performance anxiety in live games I've ever seen from a QB that is the exact opposite in practice.

And that leaves Orton who doesn't do anything special but not anything stupid either.

Take away all the hype, and star label from Tebow and any other coaching staff would have picked Orton to start.

It was Tebow/Quinn's job to TAKE THE JOB AWAY FROM ORTON. They didn't.

You call it being lied to, most of us call it the reality of the heaping pile of crap McD left behind without so much as a courtesy flush.

McDaniels hires a known video guy who cheated with the Pats and we've got guys here who are upset because they feel they were lied to by John Fox who had absolutely no choice in the crap fest of QBs he inherited.

We've got much bigger problems on this team than any perceptions about the QB competition.

fontaine
09-06-2011, 03:40 PM
Fans forget that Tebow was really hurt by the lockout, he had no access to the coaches and the playbook in the offseason. He was behind Orton from the start, who already has a lot more experience as a starter.

Tebow's problems are far deeper than learning the playbook.

Like actually securing the ball at the center snap exchange, completing a forward pass etc.

I would love it if Tebow just got the basics right consistently. Nevermind reading the defenses, calling the right audibles, taking advantage of mismatches etc. Just your basic snap, to 3/5 step drop and forward pass, because he's got enough athletic ability to get by with just the basics.

But he's even struggling with that.

jhns
09-06-2011, 03:46 PM
Tebow's problems are far deeper than learning the playbook.

Like actually securing the ball at the center snap exchange, completing a forward pass etc.

I would love it if Tebow just got the basics right consistently. Nevermind reading the defenses, calling the right audibles, taking advantage of mismatches etc. Just your basic snap, to 3/5 step drop and forward pass, because he's got enough athletic ability to get by with just the basics.

But he's even struggling with that.

It is weird that you come here to discuss a sport you have never actually watched.

bombay
09-06-2011, 03:56 PM
Hilarious.

orange 4 life
09-06-2011, 04:04 PM
Wow it's always something...anything...as long as it's not a performance issue that keeps Tebow on the bench.

It's not that he couldn't throw the ball accurately to a guy 12-15 yards down field consistently..it's the coaches have it out for him.

It's not that he tends to disregard his reads and progressions but runs instead, it's the FO has it out for him

It's not that his delivery is slow and deliberate and allows DB's to break on his passes quicker...it's now his contract causing his being stuck on the bench.

You really think that if the Broncos believed they could make the playoffs with Tebow playing 55% of the plays and doubling his salary they wouldn't do it? What's 22 million when a playoff appearance could generate another 100 million in revenue?

This.

Apparently some people just refuse to accept that Tebow simply is not anywhere near as good a player right now.

Shananahan
09-06-2011, 04:22 PM
I don't give a crap about any of our QBs. I care about being lied to and I posted links and quotes to prove that.
I missed this the first time around, but it's pretty hilarious.

You sound way too sensitive to be watching sports if your feelings are going to get hurt when a head coach doesn't tell you, through the media, exactly what he's going to do with his team.

cutthemdown
09-06-2011, 04:29 PM
well only a blind fool would think tebow doesnt have any talent , he does , he will be just fine in a year ....

Fox's history says he will start different qbs throughout the yr if the offense not scoring and moving the ball. So either Orton moves the ball, or we will see one of the bkups, and then probably the other one as well. Tebow will either sit because Orton is playing well, or get his shot when Fox benches Orton.

I don't see what the big deal is. I think Fox more concerned with getting the defense to play even close to nfl level. The offense doesn't look that bad in preseason so I bet we can move the ball on the Raiders this week. I think Broncos have a good shot at ambushing the faiders.

cutthemdown
09-06-2011, 04:31 PM
I missed this the first time around, but it's pretty hilarious.

You sound way too sensitive to be watching sports if your feelings are going to get hurt when a head coach doesn't tell you, through the media, exactly what he's going to do with his team.

What an idiot. LOL i feel lied to. The only lie that a team could make is about moving the franchise. All the drafting, who is going to play, who they like and don't is privy to the team. You are right it is hilarious anyone would think they have a right to know who the starting qb will be.

Jay3
09-06-2011, 04:43 PM
I've thought it over, and I'm not buying it. It's too implausible based on all the considerations.

Yes, they would do it. They are capable of it.

I just don't think it actually occurred.

I think they started practice, and Tebow looked tentative and confused. And they got cold feet about conducting what seemed to be an elaborate "competition" that would seem forced.

I think without the lockout, with OTA's, and with more time to prepare it could have flowed more naturally. And I think they rushed to judgment that Tebow was a year away and decided to do another redshirt year. But then, in typical Tebow fashion, when counted out he rose to the occasion and continued to improve under the most difficult of situations.

Spider
09-06-2011, 05:31 PM
Fox's history says he will start different qbs throughout the yr if the offense not scoring and moving the ball. So either Orton moves the ball, or we will see one of the bkups, and then probably the other one as well. Tebow will either sit because Orton is playing well, or get his shot when Fox benches Orton.

I don't see what the big deal is. I think Fox more concerned with getting the defense to play even close to nfl level. The offense doesn't look that bad in preseason so I bet we can move the ball on the Raiders this week. I think Broncos have a good shot at ambushing the faiders.

Tom Laundry , Shula did the same thing , Laundry had Morton and Staubach. And Shula with Wood -Strock , maybe we will have Orton-Bow ;D

24champ
09-06-2011, 11:14 PM
Tebow's problems are far deeper than learning the playbook.

Like actually securing the ball at the center snap exchange, completing a forward pass etc.

I would love it if Tebow just got the basics right consistently. Nevermind reading the defenses, calling the right audibles, taking advantage of mismatches etc. Just your basic snap, to 3/5 step drop and forward pass, because he's got enough athletic ability to get by with just the basics.

But he's even struggling with that.

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/bale_and_kermit.gif

epicSocialism4tw
09-06-2011, 11:22 PM
Only on the internet can you find a guy named after what appears to be a Lord of the Rings character who fancies himself a football analyst.

By Grabthar's hammer he will live to tell the tale.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-07-2011, 02:59 AM
There was also a link about MUG (i guess he is a big wig poster at Broncos Country) being so upset that we didnt take a DE or DT in the draft, that he cannot admit that Von Miller is a great draft pick and puts him down as recently as right before our 3rd preseason (not sure if he still does fell this way since I do not go over to BC).
The conspiracy would need to cover all the media in Denver and also National media as they visit Dove Valley during TC. It seemed pretty clear that Orton outplayed Tebow throughout preseason. If Tebow outperformed Orton, then you might have a valid reason. This is all on Tebow and not the coaches who are here to win. As I stated in this thread earlier, Fox cannot afford another dismal run or he is done as a head coach. He is going to play the best players at any given position. Bowlen is not Al Davis controlling the puppets. Fox is far from a puppet and would have walked if he was told he needs to play Orton or Quinn based on Tebow's 11 million dollar "raise".
What we have here is MacGruder/Gaffney trying to tie Broncos football into a conspiracy.


Sorry you feel that way.

1) I would never lie about a player to further my own opinion or stance. I truly broke down every play on Miller. There is some good, there is some bad. He's a rookie. My game breakdowns attempted to portray where the player was at as of that game. I've refused to say he's a good or bad pick. I'll make that judgment at a minimum of three years from now. Personally, I believe you go DT over rush LBs due to positional scarcity. However, I have too much integrity to let that compromise a breakdown I tout as objective.

2) I have quotes that show Orton was told not to come to camp until the Miami trade fell through. I have quotes from Schefter saying as soon as that trade fell through, the Broncos decided to go with Orton as their starters this season. I'm not trying to say Tebow is better than Orton, or Quinn, or Weber. I'm saying a QB competition was promised and it was scrapped the moment we got stuck with the contract.

3) Why is the front office pulling a 180 such a big deal? They chose to do the PR blitz that said they were going to be honest and there would be no more deceit. They said competition would occur in camp, competition was decided before camp even started. I researched why that could be, the contractual information was the only answer. I'm also working on a very long article detailing other misrepresentations to the fanbase after the promise of honesty and openness. That should be an interesting read when done.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-07-2011, 03:08 AM
I just don't see how they lied, if I have a contest between Tiger Woods, a random club pro and a handicap 10 weekend golfer, it can be as open and honest as they come, but it is still not going to take me long to figure out that Tiger is the best and he is the guy I need to work with. The same here, rotating all 3 players with the 1st team all through camp and preseason would be highly detrimental to the team, especially with a short offseason and new coaches.

As it stands we had less time than usual to implement the playbook and terminology, if we had to cut that time in 3 and split it between the QBs we would have majorly handicapped our offense.

Frankly it is insane to believe that time should be or could be split beyond the first couple of days.

Basicly the choice came down to:

1. Do we want to optimize our chances of winning games this year? (Kyle Orton)
2. Do we expect Orton to be gone but figure we can extend Quinn and he lives up to the draft status? (Quinn)
3. We find out what we have in Tebow at all costs? (Tebow)

I think the decision came down to winning now and then working out the contract situations later.


I'm not disagreeing with the decision to start Orton. If I were CFO, I would have done so as well for the contractual reasons I pointed out. There is a responsiblity to the investors and shareholders to maximize profits. That's all Joe Ellis' job is.

I'm disagreeing with the lying about the competition. I am certain every member of EFX was well aware of Orton's contract. That's why they tried to trade it. They failed in that they thought he would have a market. They should have just said all along that if Orton were still here, he's the starter, there is no competition. Contracts dictated it. I don't care how good Quinn or Tebow played, neither were going to start over Orton, not until Week 10.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-07-2011, 03:12 AM
Also, if money was everything as MUG wants us to believe, why didnt we just cut Orton before he got his roster bonus and play Quinn and Tebow equally (this is MUG's first reasoning on his theory) for 2011?
Sorry, but trying to trade Orton and play both backups 50% of the starts for 2011 is insane and is a stretch to backup a theory. Far fetched. Adding the fact we didnt dump Orton to save bonus money on his contract.

There wasn't a roster bonus. He signed a contract extension last year worth 5.5 million guaranteed, 9 million overall. He signed it on August 20th, 2010. He was getting his 5.5 million no matter if he was on the roster or off.

A team source told ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter that Orton's extension is a one-year, $9 million contract, with $5.5 million guaranteed.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/trainingcamp10/news/story?id=5478172

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-07-2011, 03:13 AM
I really don't want to read 200+ replies... But...

For some reason I just need to know this...

Who the hell is MUG?


Some jackass.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-07-2011, 03:16 AM
I missed this the first time around, but it's pretty hilarious.

You sound way too sensitive to be watching sports if your feelings are going to get hurt when a head coach doesn't tell you, through the media, exactly what he's going to do with his team.

Why? They spent an unprecedated amount of money and time launching their PR blitz this spring, including the reasoning behind hiring Elway, to "re-connect with fans and re-esablish a level of trust". And that gets blown out the water with a few months.

Seems fair to criticize it. The lack of a QB competition was not the only instance.

You may like being manipulated and lied to in an effort to extract money, but I really don't. Different things for different folks I guess.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-07-2011, 03:22 AM
Ahhhh... So this is another one to ignore.


Thanks... :thumbs:


Ahh yes. I came to explain a possible theory. Provided facts and links to support it, was polite to everyone, encouraged discussion, accepted criticism, did a large amount of work to present his side, and treated everyone's opinions with respect.

Ignore and dismiss that guy because someone else wants to present him in a negative light for supposably being a respected poster somewhere else. Makes a ton of sense.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-07-2011, 03:24 AM
What an idiot. LOL i feel lied to. The only lie that a team could make is about moving the franchise. All the drafting, who is going to play, who they like and don't is privy to the team. You are right it is hilarious anyone would think they have a right to know who the starting qb will be.

Yep, hilarious to believe someone when they look you in the eye and tell you they won't lie. And they do. Oh, god, my sides hurt. Oh god, so hilarious.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-07-2011, 03:27 AM
Only on the internet can you find a guy named after what appears to be a Lord of the Rings character who fancies himself a football analyst.

By Grabthar's hammer he will live to tell the tale.


More correct than you know.

Attorney by day, pathetic fantasy writer by night. Name is from the series I'm struggling with.

The Joker
09-07-2011, 03:49 AM
Just wanted to say that I used to post a bit over at Broncomania and MUG's a quality poster who I've never seen be anything other than respectful to anyone that he deals with.

Generally gives great takes as well, would be a great addition to this board IMO.

epicSocialism4tw
09-07-2011, 04:17 AM
More correct than you know.

Attorney by day, pathetic fantasy writer by night. Name is from the series I'm struggling with.

Aha.

Good luck in your work.

Shananahan
09-07-2011, 05:38 AM
Why? They spent an unprecedated amount of money and time launching their PR blitz this spring, including the reasoning behind hiring Elway, to "re-connect with fans and re-esablish a level of trust". And that gets blown out the water with a few months.

Seems fair to criticize it. The lack of a QB competition was not the only instance.

You may like being manipulated and lied to in an effort to extract money, but I really don't. Different things for different folks I guess.
I'm not sure what you expected 're-connect with fans and re-esablish a level of trust' to mean, but you were just being naive and foolish if it was 'tell me the absolute truth about what they're really doing regarding personnel decisions and team management.' You were expecting them, post-failed trade, to give a press release to the team and fans about how they now will have no competition and Orton will be the starter because they don't want to have to pay Tebow more? I'm sure that sort of honesty would have made everybody very happy.

Even worse is, assuming your quality research pays off and your theory were actually correct, the only thing you're upset about is the fact that they misrepresented their intentions. You couldn't care less about the outcomes of their decisions and how those will affect the team, you just feel 'manipulated and lied to'? And how did the false promise of a competition (of which you have no real proof, though I doubt it as well) become an effort to extract money?

Just seems absurd and hilarious to me.

peacepipe
09-07-2011, 06:04 AM
Why? They spent an unprecedated amount of money and time launching their PR blitz this spring, including the reasoning behind hiring Elway, to "re-connect with fans and re-esablish a level of trust". And that gets blown out the water with a few months.

Seems fair to criticize it. The lack of a QB competition was not the only instance.You may like being manipulated and lied to in an effort to extract money, but I really don't. Different things for different folks I guess.

more like a lack of ability for tebow or quinn to beat out orton for starter.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-07-2011, 08:02 AM
I'm not sure what you expected 're-connect with fans and re-esablish a level of trust' to mean, but you were just being naive and foolish if it was 'tell me the absolute truth about what they're really doing regarding personnel decisions and team management.' You were expecting them, post-failed trade, to give a press release to the team and fans about how they now will have no competition and Orton will be the starter because they don't want to have to pay Tebow more? I'm sure that sort of honesty would have made everybody very happy.

Even worse is, assuming your quality research pays off and your theory were actually correct, the only thing you're upset about is the fact that they misrepresented their intentions. You couldn't care less about the outcomes of their decisions and how those will affect the team, you just feel 'manipulated and lied to'? And how did the false promise of a competition (of which you have no real proof, though I doubt it as well) become an effort to extract money?

Just seems absurd and hilarious to me.


Honestly, what I expected was that if they chose to make a statement and tout it repeatedly, that they would do it. I don't think that is unreasonable, and I admit I have a bad taste in my mouth from the last several years. I'm sure all of us do.

In regards to the failed Orton trade. They couldn't come out and state Orton was the starter due to contracts even if they wanted to. The NFLPA would sue the pants off the Broncos/NFL for negotiating and acting in bad faith in regards to the contract. I get that.

And I don't think they should tell us all their plans, I think they should stay quiet and treat them like Fort Knox and tell us none. *They* decided to tell us their plans. Each step of the way. And their excuses.


We got the predraft plan of addressing the D-line. After Day 1, Fox gave an interview saying we were sure to draft DT in the next day or two. After the draft, EFX said they weren't prepared for the run on DTs early.

Ok, next we were told it would be addressed in Free Agency. We heard, again, all about "the plan" the team had and how "they were ready to hit the ground running and be aggressive". Free Agency happened. Afterwards we were told they didn't expect the demand and contracts to be so high on the good players. It became publically known that we couldn't compete because we weren't offering competitive signing bonuses. A liquid cash problem that's been going on for some time, further highlighted by Bailey and Dumervil's extensions not having signing bonuses. Ok fine, we're cash strapped, but they knew that before Free Agency.

Now we get told not to worry, we have the #2 waiver claim, and we're going to use it to maximum effectiveness. Fox gave a speech that the waiver claim is as equally important to building a team as the draft and free agency. They talked this thing up all offseason. And then didn't use it. Not that there weren't players they wanted, they said there were some interesting names, but that they didn't want to take on the existing contracts, a key concept of waivers. They talked this thing up all this time, and just now figured out they didn't want the pre-existing contracts that came with a claim?


I mean, maybe you're right. Maybe they didn't lie (purposely). Maybe they were just unprepared, bumbling, stumbling rookies to the process.


To me, how can a front office not know that DTs go quick and fast in drafts? It's historical. How could they not know that Orton had no trade market and that he wasn't going to restructure his guaranteed 5.5 million? How could they not know that the good players in Free Agency would be in high demand and probably want their pay day to include some up front cash to celebrate with? And how could they not know how the waiver system worked and that the waiverwire on cutdown day usually (as again this year) is filled with crap, depth players at best?

It's a conundrum. Liars or horrifically unprepared? or both?

alkemical
09-07-2011, 08:45 AM
I really think some of you fans, really grossly over estimate how much information you are entitled too.

crawdad
09-07-2011, 08:53 AM
And you're the st louis cardinals.

10 World Series Championships? How dare you compare them to the hapless Buffalo Bills! :wave:

:sunshine:

TheReverend
09-07-2011, 09:01 AM
More correct than you know.

Attorney by day, pathetic fantasy writer by night. Name is from the series I'm struggling with.

I like your honesty.

JJG
09-07-2011, 09:26 AM
2) I have quotes that show Orton was told not to come to camp until the Miami trade fell through. I have quotes from Schefter saying as soon as that trade fell through, the Broncos decided to go with Orton as their starters this season. I'm not trying to say Tebow is better than Orton, or Quinn, or Weber. I'm saying a QB competition was promised and it was scrapped the moment we got stuck with the contract.


It always amazes me how people can see the same event take place, yet have such different outlooks on what happened.

MUG, you seem like an intelligent guy, and you have been more than gracious with your responses here. Thanks for the time and effort you have put in.

I've bolded the above sentence because it seems like it's the one your whole theory hinges upon. Most fans would agree with the first half, a QB competition was promised by the front office. The second half is where we seem to differ. You jump straight to the competition being scrapped solely because of Orton's contract.
I would make the claim there was indeed a competition, and Orton just flat out beat the other two on the field. Tebow and Quinn never looked good enough to threaten taking Orton's first team reps. The early camp reports claimed Tebow looked awful, He was missing throws, and was slow in his decision making. The speculation was not having OTA's really set him back and something about him being dyslexic and learning from live reps, not by studying the playbook.

The job was there for the taking if Tebow was ready. They had all but handed him the job by trying to trade Orton, a trade that fell through because Orton rejected it. Tebow is a huge cash cow for this organization, and if he ever has any kind of success it would bring in ten times more money than his contract pays out. The front office knows this and desperately wants him to succeed. He's just not there yet.

(This is from a Tebow fan btw)

Agamemnon
09-07-2011, 10:14 AM
It always amazes me how people can see the same event take place, yet have such different outlooks on what happened.

MUG, you seem like an intelligent guy, and you have been more than gracious with your responses here. Thanks for the time and effort you have put in.

I've bolded the above sentence because it seems like it's the one your whole theory hinges upon. Most fans would agree with the first half, a QB competition was promised by the front office. The second half is where we seem to differ. You jump straight to the competition being scrapped solely because of Orton's contract.
I would make the claim there was indeed a competition, and Orton just flat out beat the other two on the field. Tebow and Quinn never looked good enough to threaten taking Orton's first team reps. The early camp reports claimed Tebow looked awful, He was missing throws, and was slow in his decision making. The speculation was not having OTA's really set him back and something about him being dyslexic and learning from live reps, not by studying the playbook.

The job was there for the taking if Tebow was ready. They had all but handed him the job by trying to trade Orton, a trade that fell through because Orton rejected it. Tebow is a huge cash cow for this organization, and if he ever has any kind of success it would bring in ten times more money than his contract pays out. The front office knows this and desperately wants him to succeed. He's just not there yet.

(This is from a Tebow fan btw)

True QB competitions involve each QB involved playing with the 1st string. Otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges. Not sure why so many struggle with this concept.

JJG
09-07-2011, 10:24 AM
True QB competitions involve each QB involved playing with the 1st string. Otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges. Not sure why so many struggle with this concept.

Why should someone get first team reps when they struggle making plays with the second team? Should Adam Weber get first team reps? what about poor Nate Jones, he never got a chance to beat champ.

I know, second string oline sucks right? spare me.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-07-2011, 10:28 AM
It always amazes me how people can see the same event take place, yet have such different outlooks on what happened.

MUG, you seem like an intelligent guy, and you have been more than gracious with your responses here. Thanks for the time and effort you have put in.

I've bolded the above sentence because it seems like it's the one your whole theory hinges upon. Most fans would agree with the first half, a QB competition was promised by the front office. The second half is where we seem to differ. You jump straight to the competition being scrapped solely because of Orton's contract.
I would make the claim there was indeed a competition, and Orton just flat out beat the other two on the field. Tebow and Quinn never looked good enough to threaten taking Orton's first team reps. The early camp reports claimed Tebow looked awful, He was missing throws, and was slow in his decision making. The speculation was not having OTA's really set him back and something about him being dyslexic and learning from live reps, not by studying the playbook.

The job was there for the taking if Tebow was ready. They had all but handed him the job by trying to trade Orton, a trade that fell through because Orton rejected it. Tebow is a huge cash cow for this organization, and if he ever has any kind of success it would bring in ten times more money than his contract pays out. The front office knows this and desperately wants him to succeed. He's just not there yet.

(This is from a Tebow fan btw)


Appreciate it.

You make great points. A lot of folks have about why Orton would have won a competition if it had occurred at any point during camp. I agree with you. I think the odds are good that Orton would have won. I think it's a fact that Orton looked the best early on with Quinn second. I also think it's a fact that Fox prefers veterans and probably preferred Orton to start.

I would say one area you might be offbase is with Tebow as a money maker. Merchandise sales are split via revenue sharing. I was wrong earlier, it's not divided between 32 teams, but rather 31. The Cowboys do not participate. With the season already sold out, and merchandise sales representing an extremely small part of total income (on top of Tebow's declining sales since last year), I don't think he's a factor in profit analysis. I know Bowlen is having difficulty selling out his luxury boxes, but those aren't really something a single player can influence. That's the economy keeping businesses from buying them.

It comes down to when Orton was given the job. From the digging I've done, it seems like he was told not to come to camp. Once the trade fell through, he was told to come to camp. And once that trade fell through, Schefter said the Broncos made the decision to go forward with Orton as starter.

Now, it's possible Schefter was wrong. Not likely, but possible. That Orton came to camp, wow'd the brass in the first couple days, and locked up the job. At that point, I'd still argue an open competition never occurred, but that would be much more subjective due to defining what an open competition is. I think we can all agree that if Orton was determined to be the starter before ever reporting to camp, then no open competition by any definition occurred.

And that seems to be where we are at. I'm not willing to argue with folks the definition of an open competition. I think all opinions are valid, though mine would be equal opportunity with the 1s, best man wins. My entire theory hinges on the synthesis of reports effectively stating Orton was determined to be the starter before camp ever started.

And the only way my "theory" gets proven true is if Orton gets hurt early, Quinn then starts until Week 9 or 10, and even if playing well, is removed for Tebow the rest of the way. If that occurs, I think more people will start to see this as legit.

JJG
09-07-2011, 11:32 AM
Appreciate it.

You make great points. A lot of folks have about why Orton would have won a competition if it had occurred at any point during camp. I agree with you. I think the odds are good that Orton would have won. I think it's a fact that Orton looked the best early on with Quinn second. I also think it's a fact that Fox prefers veterans and probably preferred Orton to start.

I would say one area you might be offbase is with Tebow as a money maker. Merchandise sales are split via revenue sharing. I was wrong earlier, it's not divided between 32 teams, but rather 31. The Cowboys do not participate. With the season already sold out, and merchandise sales representing an extremely small part of total income (on top of Tebow's declining sales since last year), I don't think he's a factor in profit analysis. I know Bowlen is having difficulty selling out his luxury boxes, but those aren't really something a single player can influence. That's the economy keeping businesses from buying them.

I'm not talking only about merchandise sales, but ticket sales, and most importantly all the publicity Tebow brings to an organization, the national exposure. Tebow is polarizing figure, he has a HUGE following nation wide with millions of diehard college football fans, even with non sport fans. It does make a difference to the teams bottom line. If he has any kind of success on the field, he can be bigger than Mr. Potato head up in Indy.
Now, I may be overstating it a bit, but I think it's more than your giving it credit for. Anyways, its not the main point of my argument

It comes down to when Orton was given the job. From the digging I've done, it seems like he was told not to come to camp. Once the trade fell through, he was told to come to camp. And once that trade fell through, Schefter said the Broncos made the decision to go forward with Orton as starter.just going off memory here, but there was a solid 3 days at the beginning of camp before all the trade rumors were squelched by Schefter.
Meaning there were probably 5 or so on field practices and about the same number of QB meeting behind closed doors, which we don't get the opportunity to see. Most would agree that Orton is the most familiar with the offense, so it's not a surprise that he looked the best on the field and probably knew the most in the QB meetings. By almost all accounts Tebow was struggling. To me, its not because there wasn't a fair competition, Its just Tebow not being ready.

Now, it's possible Schefter was wrong. Not likely, but possible. That Orton came to camp, wow'd the brass in the first couple days, and locked up the job. At that point, I'd still argue an open competition never occurred, but that would be much more subjective due to defining what an open competition is. I think we can all agree that if Orton was determined to be the starter before ever reporting to camp, then no open competition by any definition occurred.

And that seems to be where we are at. I'm not willing to argue with folks the definition of an open competition. I think all opinions are valid, though mine would be equal opportunity with the 1s, best man wins. My entire theory hinges on the synthesis of reports effectively stating Orton was determined to be the starter before camp ever started.
fair enough

And the only way my "theory" gets proven true is if Orton gets hurt early, Quinn then starts until Week 9 or 10, and even if playing well, is removed for Tebow the rest of the way. If that occurs, I think more people will start to see this as legit.
I tend to subscribe to Occams razor school of thought and try not to read too much into anything. But that's just me

vonqkilla
09-07-2011, 01:09 PM
I went to camp 3 times, early, middle, and the last day. Everyday Tebow was late on reads, takes long to decide, and was not as accurate as bq and ko.

Its like he is concentrating so hard on taking the snap and his drops and footwork, he has to rethink his progressions once set. Its sadly similar to my youth qbs.

Thats why he lost the competition so fast.

NFL stands for what?

Anyway, once he gets the muscle memory down, and is fluid under center, he will win the job I think. Timing under center is so important, and his timing is slowwww.

Decision making even slower. As we saw, in the gun, he's outstanding.

And I am a huge Tebow fan. I say start him now and deal with consequences but team would go crazy, so KO it is. Deal with it.
Also...


The playoff revenue a team gets from the tv and radio and ticket and parking and concessions would pay for much of the escalators. The ticket sales are split outside of premiums the team charges, but the rest is Bowlens money.

Micanopy
09-07-2011, 01:43 PM
Tebow was not given a chance in preseason games.


A noble try my friend, but it's like talking to a wall.

Blart
09-07-2011, 01:47 PM
Tebow conspiracy theorists, hahaha!


Fox and Elway would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling Tebowners!

Micanopy
09-07-2011, 01:47 PM
Clearly you missed the point. It isn't about who is or isn't our starter. It's about the "competition" amongst the QBs being a farce. Neither Tebow nor Quinn got to play with the 1st stringers and Orton never had to play behind the abomination of our 2nd string o-line. There was no QB competition because of financial issues, yet EFX lied to us and said otherwise. Considering how cheap this team has been this offseason, this explanation has suddenly become very hard to dispute. Unless you are one of those blind followers EFX is counting on...

Bingo! lies, hypocrisy, lack of respect for players and fans- just say you already made a decision

Micanopy
09-07-2011, 01:51 PM
Tebow conspiracy theorists, hahaha

Keep em coming, Tebowners

Still missing the point. This is just as much about quinn ,and weber for that matter. We don't know what other lies they spin to their players. It is about how the broncos do business with their players and fans.

If it doesn't bother you, fine for you, but lots of people find it offensive.

Micanopy
09-07-2011, 02:03 PM
Another thing, this kind of organization value system for dealing with your players is not a sound way to build a solid foundation for a cohesive committed team. It explains a lot about the Broncos.

PRBronco
09-07-2011, 02:05 PM
More correct than you know.

Attorney by day, pathetic fantasy writer by night. Name is from the series I'm struggling with.

I've always wondered what the deal is with that name!

Blart
09-07-2011, 02:11 PM
Still missing the point. This is just as much about quinn ,and weber for that matter. We don't know what other lies they spin to their players. It is about how the broncos do business with their players and fans.

If it doesn't bother you, fine for you, but lots of people find it offensive.


No, the issue is confirmation bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias), the driving force behind conspiracy theories. You read a crackpot motive on a messageboard about how the Broncos are keeping their good players down, and you accept it as fact because it confirms what you already believe: that Tebow is a great QB and Orton lackluster.

Did you notice how the only people who buy in to this theory are Tebow fans? Nobody who is on the fence, impartial, or an Orton fan thinks that Elway & Fox are out to destroy the Broncos or purposely keep good players down.

It simply doesn't hold water, especially when you consider that Broncos were one of the better off teams this year financially (http://www.milehighreport.com/2011/7/26/2295248/denver-broncos-wont-count-dead-money-towards-2011-salary-cap-figure), or that starting Tebow would have been a huge short-term financial gain for the franchise (apparel, tickets, things Orton isn't going to sell by himself), or that Elway would opt to make less with an NFL career just for the ability to keep players from competing.

I'd like to see some Tebow fans that admit he has some work to do before he's a starter.

ZONA
09-07-2011, 02:22 PM
Paint it how ever you want, Tebow wasn't quite ready lead this team. The lockout really hurt his development. I don't think another year on the bench will hurt him at all, I think it will only help him. He needs to tighten up that throwing motion. He's definitely got the power in his arm as I've seen those deep out he's thrown and he puts some good zip on the ball.


Next year is a new start of things I believe. Orton will be gone (unless he wins a playoff game). Quinn will be gone. We'll draft another QB, probably won't be Luck but there are still some good QB's next year besides him. Tebow will get his shot next year, along with the rookie QB. That's how I see it.

fontaine
09-07-2011, 04:11 PM
To me, how can a front office not know that DTs go quick and fast in drafts? It's historical. How could they not know that Orton had no trade market and that he wasn't going to restructure his guaranteed 5.5 million? How could they not know that the good players in Free Agency would be in high demand and probably want their pay day to include some up front cash to celebrate with? And how could they not know how the waiver system worked and that the waiverwire on cutdown day usually (as again this year) is filled with crap, depth players at best?

It's a conundrum. Liars or horrifically unprepared? or both?

Hell nobody outside the organization really knows.

I don't think it's the case of lying or being unprepared. I think we all can agree that was definitely the case previously with McDaniels.

I don't expect to be given an answer to each and every situation, especially one as fluid as the QB situation which will continue to develop over the course of the season.

Have you considered that the coaches don't know either? I mean, you've got one experienced QB who plays it safe, knows how to execute an offense but has severe limitations based on the OL/Running game that is all up in the air anyway, then another guy in Quinn who looks sharp in practice but plays opposite and a supremely physically talented kid who's a long term project in Tebow who can look great one play, and then look like a TE playing QB the next one, be it practice or preseason so far.

I don't blame coaches like Fox who inherited this situation. His primary job so far in the offseason to me was getting the draft right, beyond that anything else this season is a bonus and really largely up to a roster mainly put together by the previous FO/Coaches.

Shananahan
09-07-2011, 04:34 PM
Personally, I hope they were just horrifically unprepared.

I can live with a lousy and inept front office, but a billion-dollar sports team in the business of improving itself while making a profit not being completely honest with me is just too much.