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Broncos4tw
09-07-2011, 09:40 PM
I agree it was finances. But finances because of wins.. not because of a contract. Wins are more important. Orton was just better than Tebow. That's why he is playing. He should produce more wins.

Winning begets more winning. Wins produce revenue. They sell tickets. They inspire better players to sign with our team, which produces more wins. It works the opposite way too. Why do you think Detroit is in the basement consistently?

The players on the team want a shot at the playoffs EVERY year. They don't have a "rebuild" mindset. They want to win now. They want to play for the QB that has the best chance of winning. That's Orton at the moment. It doesn't matter if Orton is mediocre (and he is) - he will produce more wins than Tebow, that's the bottom line.

Do you listen to the Ticket or other media sources? Do you notice when they talk to neutral sources such as sports folks for other radio stations or analysts or whatever, when asked about Tebow, they ALL say he isn't ready to play in the NFL yet? I've not heard ONE source say "Tebow is better, and should be starting!"

I personally would rather have Tebow play. Excitement and all that. Orton is mundane and boring. But what the fans want doesn't really matter. Winning matters. It's what makes the team $$$ at the end of the day. Contracts don't mean squat - winning is everything. And even if they have a slim chance to scratch at the playoffs, they'll take that every time, over a doomed year under a still very green QB.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-07-2011, 11:13 PM
Ok, I figured I would do one more large comprehensive post on this, since my explanations weren't coming in clear enough. I hope this completely expresses and explains my view and thoughts concerning the contracts.



1) Contractual Parameters of all the QBs.

Ill list the absolute facts:


(a) Tebow's contract is guaranteed this season, whether he's released or not, he's making roughly 1.6 million dollars. His 2012 and 2013 contracts are fully guaranteed (about 2 million per year). The only way to avoid paying those is to trade him.

(b) We paid Tebow a 6.3 Million one time guaranteed lockout protection bonus this spring, but his remaining salaries are only around 2 million because of this bonus. However, this bonus was guaranteed unless he was traded beforehand. Now that's we've paid it, to recooperate some of that investment, keeping Tebow until 2013 makes the most sense due to the subsequent reduced salary amounts.

(c) There is another bonus, roughly 1.5 million, that Tebow still has yet to receive and will do so at any time he plays 45% of the team's snaps. That money is not guaranteed and the team controls his ability to get it.

(d) The escalator I focus on is the 55% snap count in two of his first three seasons. We have discussed the concerns you highlighted about other factors having to come into play as well. Assuming we did play him 55% this year, and next year, a playoff birth at any point would count towards doubling this contract. Whereas if we don't play him 55% of the snaps this year, that escalator only is a possibility if the team chooses to go forward with Tebow in 2013. Something that does not seem likely given John Elway's recent comments in the Post (and I will discuss this shortly). I do agree it would be nice to know what the ranking thresholds would be. (Regardless, the team can play this safe and be financially prudent, more on that later).

(e) Kyle Orton is guaranteed 5.5 million this season regardless of whether he is cut or not.

(f) Brady Quinn's contract goes from 700,000 to 6.6 million if he takes 70% of the team snaps.



2. Practical Application of the Contract Parameters

(a) We do not want to pay 5.5 million to Orton to cut him, and we don't want to pay Orton 9 million to sit on the bench. Everyone in the world can agree on this. It's bad business and a waste of money.

(b) We do not want to pay Orton either of the above sums and pay Brady Quinn 6.5 million. I don't anticipate anyone arguing this. Therefore, Quinn would not only have to be better than Orton, he'd have to be massively better to even get a sniff at possibly starting. That sniff never occurred and Quinn vented his frustration about the sham competition. That has been quoted here.

(c) We do not want to pay Orton either of the above sums, and risk paying Tebow two to three times as much as most 1st round rookie QBs will sign for next draft. Andrew Luck, if he's goes #1 Overall, is going to sign a 4 year contract for 22-24 million. Most of the other 1st Round QBs will sign a 4 year contract in the 10 million range. Tebow's contract is an albatross compared to the new rookie wage scale. We can all agree on that.

(d) The front office believes Tebow is clearly not ready to start, whether by subterfuge or not, the front office has made this crystal clear. They are not sold on Tebow. Therefore, they would not want to risk a contract vesting prior to making such a determination. Especially one of this financial degree. By not playing Tebow 55% of the snaps this season, they now have the flexibility to play him all of 2012 and 69% of the snaps in 2013 before making a decision on his future. At that point we can all agree it would be clear if Tebow was the future or not. And the team could decide to keep playing him, trade him, or cut him. His 2014 salary is not guaranteed.

(e) Building off of section (d) above, this approach also ensures that Tebow remains cheap even in the event the team makes the Playoffs despite non-franchise caliber QB play, but perhaps good enough play to meet the moderate thresholds. Keep in mind, if his contract doubles, or even triples, that money is due going forward. If he vests in 2012, his 2013 salary is now guaranteed, even if we cut him, at 8 million dollars! Or, 13.5 million guaranteed if he reaches all the escalators, and keep in mind this is a very popular player, multiple league honors very likely includes the Pro Bowl. If he vests his contract in 2013, we still have to pay 5.5 million due to the backwards way that incentives are applied. But we should be able to cut him and save 5.5 million from 2014, nobody would trade for him with a cap value of 8.5 million. And again, that's just assuming he meets the lower escalators.

(f) As detailed throughout this section, there is significant financial risk and a loss of roster flexibility, as well as all trade value barring a re-negotiation, that can all simply be postponed until 2013 by simply not allowing Tebow to take 55% of the snaps this year. With all that is at stake, the team would be absolute fools to allow Tebow to start. They were wrong to tell the fanbase there would be an open competition. It insults our intelligence that we can't break down a contact like this.


3. Elway's Lack of Faith in Tebow

There's going to be an article released later today in the Post that will cause a huge uproar on a variety of topics. I'll only address the QB position here. Elway was very specific in that he views a franchise QB as the end all, be all. He was also pretty clear that the traits he looks for none of the current QBs possess. The 2012 NFL draft is expected to have some of the best QB prospects in the last decade. There could be 4-5 Top 15 QB taken, including Andrew Luck, Landry Jones, Nick Foles, and Matt Barkley. Several of those QBs, especially Luck, possessed the exact skillset that Elway defined, "elite accurate pocket passer with excellent escapeability". If Tebow plays 55% of the time this year, it keeps that escalator open, and it makes his trade value even less since no team on the planet wants his contract. And he's not going to renegotiate his guaranteed deals through 2013, he can help a lot of impovershed children with that money. So, to maximize Tebow's trade value in the event the team does not see him as the long term answer, and by all accounts, I am saying that is now factual, he can not be allowed to hit that possible escalator for all the reasons listed above.


I hope that clears things up.

Shananahan
09-08-2011, 12:52 AM
Honestly I really don't have any problem with your argument that the decision was made over money. It wouldn't surprise me at all, and it wouldn't be the first time it's ever happened in the world of professional sports.

What I can't wrap my brain around is this:
I don't give a crap about any of our QBs. I care about being lied to and I posted links and quotes to prove that.

You claim to have no real interest in the players involved in the decision or the actual outcome of the decision itself, you're just all sore and bothered because you feel lied to. Wouldn't the only reason to be upset with how a team decision was handled be if you actually cared about what happened?

"Who, what, when, where and to a lesser extent why? I don't care about that stuff. I am, however, quite outraged by the how."

errand
09-08-2011, 04:18 AM
Ok, I figured I would do one more large comprehensive post on this, since my explanations weren't coming in clear enough. I hope this completely expresses and explains my view and thoughts concerning the contracts.



1) Contractua l Parameters of all the QBs.

Ill list the absolute facts:


(a) Tebow's contract is guaranteed this season, whether he's released or not, he's making roughly 1.6 million dollars. His 2012 and 2013 contracts are fully guaranteed (about 2 million per year). The only way to avoid paying those is to trade him.

(b) We paid Tebow a 6.3 Million one time guaranteed lockout protection bonus this spring, but his remaining salaries are only around 2 million because of this bonus. However, this bonus was guaranteed unless he was traded beforehand. Now that's we've paid it, to recooperate some of that investment, keeping Tebow until 2013 makes the most sense due to the subsequent reduced salary amounts.

(c) There is another bonus, roughly 1.5 million, that Tebow still has yet to receive and will do so at any time he plays 45% of the team's snaps. That money is not guaranteed and the team controls his ability to get it.

(d) The escalator I focus on is the 55% snap count in two of his first three seasons. We have discussed the concerns you highlighted about other factors having to come into play as well. Assuming we did play him 55% this year, and next year, a playoff birth at any point would count towards doubling this contract. Whereas if we don't play him 55% of the snaps this year, that escalator only is a possibility if the team chooses to go forward with Tebow in 2013. Something that does not seem likely given John Elway's recent comments in the Post (and I will discuss this shortly). I do agree it would be nice to know what the ranking thresholds would be. (Regardless, the team can play this safe and be financially prudent, more on that later).

(e) Kyle Orton is guaranteed 5.5 million this season regardless of whether he is cut or not.

(f) Brady Quinn's contract goes from 700,000 to 6.6 million if he takes 70% of the team snaps.



2. Practical Application of the Contract Parameters

(a) We do not want to pay 5.5 million to Orton to cut him, and we don't want to pay Orton 9 million to sit on the bench. Everyone in the world can agree on this. It's bad business and a waste of money.

(b) We do not want to pay Orton either of the above sums and pay Brady Quinn 6.5 million. I don't anticipate anyone arguing this. Therefore, Quinn would not only have to be better than Orton, he'd have to be massively better to even get a sniff at possibly starting. That sniff never occurred and Quinn vented his frustration about the sham competition. That has been quoted here.

(c) We do not want to pay Orton either of the above sums, and risk paying Tebow two to three times as much as most 1st round rookie QBs will sign for next draft. Andrew Luck, if he's goes #1 Overall, is going to sign a 4 year contract for 22-24 million. Most of the other 1st Round QBs will sign a 4 year contract in the 10 million range. Tebow's contract is an albatross compared to the new rookie wage scale. We can all agree on that.

(d) The front office believes Tebow is clearly not ready to start, whether by subterfuge or not, the front office has made this crystal clear. They are not sold on Tebow. Therefore, they would not want to risk a contract vesting prior to making such a determination. Especially one of this financial degree. By not playing Tebow 55% of the snaps this season, they now have the flexibility to play him all of 2012 and 69% of the snaps in 2013 before making a decision on his future. At that point we can all agree it would be clear if Tebow was the future or not. And the team could decide to keep playing him, trade him, or cut him. His 2014 salary is not guaranteed.

(e) Building off of section (d) above, this approach also ensures that Tebow remains cheap even in the event the team makes the Playoffs despite non-franchise caliber QB play, but perhaps good enough play to meet the moderate thresholds. Keep in mind, if his contract doubles, or even triples, that money is due going forward. If he vests in 2012, his 2013 salary is now guaranteed, even if we cut him, at 8 million dollars! Or, 13.5 million guaranteed if he reaches all the escalators, and keep in mind this is a very popular player, multiple league honors very likely includes the Pro Bowl. If he vests his contract in 2013, we still have to pay 5.5 million due to the backwards way that incentives are applied. But we should be able to cut him and save 5.5 million from 2014, nobody would trade for him with a cap value of 8.5 million. And again, that's just assuming he meets the lower escalators.

(f) As detailed throughout this section, there is significant financial risk and a loss of roster flexibility, as well as all trade value barring a re-negotiation, that can all simply be postponed until 2013 by simply not allowing Tebow to take 55% of the snaps this year. With all that is at stake, the team would be absolute fools to allow Tebow to start. They were wrong to tell the fanbase there would be an open competition. It insults our intelligence that we can't break down a contact like this.


3. Elway's Lack of Faith in Tebow

There's going to be an article released later today in the Post that will cause a huge uproar on a variety of topics. I'll only address the QB position here. Elway was very specific in that he views a franchise QB as the end all, be all. He was also pretty clear that the traits he looks for none of the current QBs possess. The 2012 NFL draft is expected to have some of the best QB prospects in the last decade. There could be 4-5 Top 15 QB taken, including Andrew Luck, Landry Jones, Nick Foles, and Matt Barkley. Several of those QBs, especially Luck, possessed the exact skillset that Elway defined, "elite accurate pocket passer with excellent escapeability". If Tebow plays 55% of the time this year, it keeps that escalator open, and it makes his trade value even less since no team on the planet wants his contract. And he's not going to renegotiate his guaranteed deals through 2013, he can help a lot of impovershed children with that money. So, to maximize Tebow's trade value in the event the team does not see him as the long term answer, and by all accounts, I am saying that is now factual, he can not be allowed to hit that possible escalator for all the reasons listed above.


I hope that clears things up.

Well then I guess it's a good thing that orton won the job out right..........

errand
09-08-2011, 04:20 AM
And while we're at it......if orton performs well and we sniff the playoffs or even make the playoffs, he should actually get a really good contract because of all the money he saved the broncos by winning the starting job.....

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-08-2011, 04:24 AM
Honestly I really don't have any problem with your argument that the decision was made over money. It wouldn't surprise me at all, and it wouldn't be the first time it's ever happened in the world of professional sports.

What I can't wrap my brain around is this:


You claim to have no real interest in the players involved in the decision or the actual outcome of the decision itself, you're just all sore and bothered because you feel lied to. Wouldn't the only reason to be upset with how a team decision was handled be if you actually cared about what happened?

"Who, what, when, where and to a lesser extent why? I don't care about that stuff. I am, however, quite outraged by the how."


Ahh, I see.

My concern is that the team is being run into the ground. That Bowlen has no liquid capital to compete for marquee players, that EFX are woefully unprepared to handle front office duties, and that all they've shown so far is a tendency to not do what they say they will do.

My passion is as a fan of the team whom sees the ship sinking, not because of the players, but because of the limitations of those with the power and/or money.

I want to believe in this team again. I convinced myself to believe and trust in this new regime. But all I've seen are falsehoods followed by excuses and decisions not to spend money. Sitting 20-25 million under the cap, with as shallow a roster as any in the league? Despite being a top 10 revenue team? It angers me. I feel the fanbase is being taken for granted and being hoodwinked by promises to spend money and compete.


That is what I care about. Whom starts at QB, not so much. If that clears it up at all.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
09-08-2011, 04:47 AM
Well then I guess it's a good thing that orton won the job out right..........

Financially, it made sense Orton was handed the job before camp started, yes. There was no competition before he was named starter.


When the Broncos put on full pads this morning for their first contact practice of 2011, quarterback Kyle Orton will be barking protection audibles and snap counts with the first-string offense.

There is no chance he will be traded to the Miami Dolphins. And barring a significant preseason injury to one of the league's starting quarterbacks, Orton is likely to be with the Broncos when their season opens Sept. 12 against Oakland.

What happened? How did Orton go from the trading block one day to again the Broncos' starting quarterback the next? According to several NFL sources, here's how the Orton trade saga played out:

....

While Broncos players "voluntarily" reported to the team's headquarters Tuesday, Orton stayed behind as he and his agent David Dunn​ negotiated with the Dolphins.

....

With the contract talks bogged down, the Broncos told Orton to report to training camp Wednesday. He did. Tebow was no longer assured of becoming the Broncos' starting quarterback. He was not even the leader in the locker room.

"The guys had a lot of questions," Orton said. "But we got those cleared up. I know my guys, and I'm going to be in the huddle with them."

....

QB Kyle Orton will start for the Denver Broncos according to ESPN's Adam Schefter and NFL Network's Michael Lombardi.

"(Orton) will be the starter in Denver. He will not be traded," Lombardi said Wednesday.



http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_18583140

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2011/08/report-broncos-will-keep-start-kyle-orton/1

peacepipe
09-08-2011, 06:59 AM
Financially, it made sense Orton was handed the job before camp started, yes. There was no competition before he was named starter.




....





http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_18583140

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2011/08/report-broncos-will-keep-start-kyle-orton/1

LOL you're presenting articles/speculation as fact. It's a shame,they need to start televising practice so all can see the competition.

gyldenlove
09-08-2011, 08:41 AM
Ahh, I see.

My concern is that the team is being run into the ground. That Bowlen has no liquid capital to compete for marquee players, that EFX are woefully unprepared to handle front office duties, and that all they've shown so far is a tendency to not do what they say they will do.

My passion is as a fan of the team whom sees the ship sinking, not because of the players, but because of the limitations of those with the power and/or money.

I want to believe in this team again. I convinced myself to believe and trust in this new regime. But all I've seen are falsehoods followed by excuses and decisions not to spend money. Sitting 20-25 million under the cap, with as shallow a roster as any in the league? Despite being a top 10 revenue team? It angers me. I feel the fanbase is being taken for granted and being hoodwinked by promises to spend money and compete.


That is what I care about. Whom starts at QB, not so much. If that clears it up at all.

So what you want is another Mcdaniels disaster? people who have not adequate time to scout and evaluate go out and spend money and resources on free agents and draft picks with no real plan or purpose?

Fact is that with the holdout, hiring new front office people and new coaches there was just no way in hell they would be able to figure out what they already had on the roster and what they would need to add to that now and later in any way that was financially responsible and made sense from a football point of view. I can certainly understand taking it slow this offseason as many teams have done - I for one applaud the decision not to run headlessly into FA and the draft throwing away good resources on players the front office have fallen in love with but have no real need or play for - that is what Mcdaniels did and was one of many mistakes he made.

Spending money for the sake of spending money is what the New York Rangers do and predictably it doesn't work - there is a reason Dallas and Washington haven't won anything in many years, money doesn't buy success in the NFL.

Wether some fans want to face facts or not, this is a rebuilding team, we are not one player away from a super bowl right now and the fact of the matter is that the best thing you can do as a rebuilding team is to evaluate your own talent very carefully because we can not afford to lose what precious little we have. I am not going to argue that we do not have a shallow roster with almost no depth, but the way to fix that is not throwing good money at bad players - and no matter how much of a mancrush people may have had on Mebane he would not have fixed the problems we have at MLB, CB, WR, RB, OC, OT or OG.

fontaine
09-08-2011, 09:52 AM
Ahh, I see.

My concern is that the team is being run into the ground. That Bowlen has no liquid capital to compete for marquee players, that EFX are woefully unprepared to handle front office duties, and that all they've shown so far is a tendency to not do what they say they will do.

My passion is as a fan of the team whom sees the ship sinking, not because of the players, but because of the limitations of those with the power and/or money.

I want to believe in this team again. I convinced myself to believe and trust in this new regime. But all I've seen are falsehoods followed by excuses and decisions not to spend money. Sitting 20-25 million under the cap, with as shallow a roster as any in the league? Despite being a top 10 revenue team? It angers me. I feel the fanbase is being taken for granted and being hoodwinked by promises to spend money and compete.


That is what I care about. Whom starts at QB, not so much. If that clears it up at all.

What happened the last two seasons was running the team into the ground.

1. Throwing away draft picks to move up to draft guys like Quinn
2. Firing a DC that actually got more out of the defense than expected
3. Trading away/cutting hard nosed players for ex-Patriot trash
4. Propping up the trenches with the same scrub rehashed trash.
5. Drafting idiots like Cox which was neither smart, nor tough.


You need not worry about Fox/Elway who have already shown the kind of willingness to improve the trenches in getting guys like Franklin/Bunkley/Warren and drafted well.

And as for depth? Yeah Depth is an issue, but not one that was created by the current FO. They're just trying to get enough quality starters out and fix the mess McD left behind.

troya900
09-13-2011, 01:01 AM
I believe this thread can't be stated enough, if the AbOrton of a performance tonight doesn't push to get Tebow out on the field soon, then I have to really start thinking that this contract/money issue is the reason for not giving Tebow a chance.

~Crash~
09-13-2011, 01:10 AM
You are now officially the Buffalo Bills.

so does that mean we slater your team both times if so good.:giggle:

~Crash~
09-13-2011, 01:12 AM
What happened the last two seasons was running the team into the ground.

1. Throwing away draft picks to move up to draft guys like Quinn
2. Firing a DC that actually got more out of the defense than expected
3. Trading away/cutting hard nosed players for ex-Patriot trash
4. Propping up the trenches with the same scrub rehashed trash.
5. Drafting idiots like Cox which was neither smart, nor tough.


You need not worry about Fox/Elway who have already shown the kind of willingness to improve the trenches in getting guys like Franklin/Bunkley/Warren and drafted well.

And as for depth? Yeah Depth is an issue, but not one that was created by the current FO. They're just trying to get enough quality starters out and fix the mess McD left behind.

great post. kind of shut my ass up ,. good for you .:thumbs:

Agamemnon
09-13-2011, 01:13 AM
I believe this thread can't be stated enough, if the AbOrton of a performance tonight doesn't push to get Tebow out on the field soon, then I have to really start thinking that this contract/money issue is the reason for not giving Tebow a chance.

And when Quinn comes in instead it will be all but proven...

troya900
09-13-2011, 02:07 AM
And when Quinn comes in instead it will be all but proven...

I don't think Quinn will play. I just think AbOrton plays at least enough to keep Tebow under the "magic number" so that his contract doesn't double, unless AbOrton gets injured early enough in the season, then Quinn will play just enough under the guise of "Tebow is not ready, Quinn gives us the best chance to win" bull**** to keep Tebow from reaching that 55% number.

fontaine
09-13-2011, 04:09 AM
WTF?

Is this thread still going on?

Has it ever occurred to anyone that if money was really the only thing preventing Tebow from taking the field then his contract could have been renegotiated? Turning that playing time based incentive into a roster bonus next year etc etc.

From the kind of guy he is, I'm sure Tebow would have absolutely renegotiated to actually start as a QB and get paid peanuts intead of sitting on the bench and getting paid peanuts.

Blart
11-01-2011, 08:59 AM
This thread is a great example of confirmation bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias), the driving force behind conspiracy theories. For example, a Tebow fan reads a crackpot motive on a messageboard about how the Broncos are keeping their good players down, and they accept it as fact because it confirms what they already believe: that Tebow is a great QB.


The reality was a good example of Occam's Razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor), i.e. all things being equal, the simpler explanation was correct: The coaching staff didn't start Tebow because he wasn't ready.

TheDave
11-01-2011, 09:07 AM
Watching some posters play CFO was awesome... :thumbs:

Paladin
11-01-2011, 09:15 AM
I thought the Net was supposed to be educational and informative. Instead we got douchebags and doucebag nozzles.....

bendog
11-01-2011, 09:19 AM
WTF?

Is this thread still going on?

Has it ever occurred to anyone that if money was really the only thing preventing Tebow from taking the field then his contract could have been renegotiated? Turning that playing time based incentive into a roster bonus next year etc etc.

From the kind of guy he is, I'm sure Tebow would have absolutely renegotiated to actually start as a QB and get paid peanuts intead of sitting on the bench and getting paid peanuts.

zombie thread

Mat'hir Uth Gan
11-01-2011, 09:32 AM
This thread is a great example of confirmation bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias), the driving force behind conspiracy theories. For example, a Tebow fan reads a crackpot motive on a messageboard about how the Broncos are keeping their good players down, and they accept it as fact because it confirms what they already believe: that Tebow is a great QB.


The reality was a good example of Occam's Razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor), i.e. all things being equal, the simpler explanation was correct: The coaching staff didn't start Tebow because he wasn't ready.


I disagree. The theory may well prove out to be wrong, as stated all along, but it was created by sound analysis.

And it looks like what I predicted will come true. The team will divide the season up between the three quarterbacks and none will hit any escalators. At this rate, Quinn will be able to come in and start around Week 10 or 11 without fear of jacking up his contract by 6 million.

Also, the driving force behind the theory was not that Tebow gave the Broncos the best chance to win, but rather that we need to see what we have in him before a very strong QB draft in 2012. We are a crappy team. There was never a "point" in starting Kyle Orton. He was not in the future plans, and was obviously going to walk after this year.

It's nice that the team finally figured out it should look to see what it has in Tebow, but I still can't fathom why we didn't just go this route in the first place. To me, that was clearly finances. We could have spent training camp working on this new "Tebow" offense and been much better off. Now we're scrapping what we wasted our time on in training camp and trying to create this new gameplan on the fly. Why wait half a season to do this halfassed? They clearly did not plan on going this route.

And to address your point of "not being ready". If that was truly the case, and so far, you could easily argue it is, then the coaching staff would have turned to Quinn first, except his escalator is the most horrendous of all.

Contracts dictated which QB started the season. And contracts will dictate which QB finishes it. Due to public pressure, Tebow did get his chance to throw a wrench in those plans, but he looks like he's going to fall flat.

bowtown
11-01-2011, 09:34 AM
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110902023018/uncyclopedia/images/2/2d/The_Motivator_-_Nazi_Super_Science.jpg

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-01-2011, 09:38 AM
And to address your point of "not being ready". If that was truly the case, and so far, you could easily argue it is, then the coaching staff would have turned to Quinn first, except his escalator is the most horrendous of all.


No. Disagree.

Nobody was putting up billboards and being completely off-the-reservation with overstatements about Quinn's ability. The FO saw the lunacy, saw a lost season, and said, basically, "**** it. These people want to see Tebow. Show them Tebow."

And they did. And he's not ready.

ant1999e
11-01-2011, 09:43 AM
No. Disagree.

Nobody was putting up billboards and being completely off-the-reservation with overstatements about Quinn's ability. The FO saw the lunacy, saw a lost season, and said, basically, "**** it. These people want to see Tebow. Show them Tebow."

And they did. And he's not ready.

No. Disagree.

The FO saw how much Orton was sucking it up that they decided basically, "**** it. We can't do much worse with Tebow. At least he won't trip over his own feet".

Inkana7
11-01-2011, 09:46 AM
No. Disagree.

The FO saw how much Orton was sucking it up that they decided basically, "**** it. We can't do much worse with Tebow. At least he won't trip over his own feet".

Egg on their face, eh?

Kaylore
11-01-2011, 09:46 AM
I disagree. The theory may well prove out to be wrong, as stated all along, but it was created by sound analysis.

And it looks like what I predicted will come true. The team will divide the season up between the three quarterbacks and none will hit any escalators. At this rate, Quinn will be able to come in and start around Week 10 or 11 without fear of jacking up his contract by 6 million.

Also, the driving force behind the theory was not that Tebow gave the Broncos the best chance to win, but rather that we need to see what we have in him before a very strong QB draft in 2012. We are a crappy team. There was never a "point" in starting Kyle Orton. He was not in the future plans, and was obviously going to walk after this year.

It's nice that the team finally figured out it should look to see what it has in Tebow, but I still can't fathom why we didn't just go this route in the first place. To me, that was clearly finances. We could have spent training camp working on this new "Tebow" offense and been much better off. Now we're scrapping what we wasted our time on in training camp and trying to create this new gameplan on the fly. Why wait half a season to do this halfassed? They clearly did not plan on going this route.

And to address your point of "not being ready". If that was truly the case, and so far, you could easily argue it is, then the coaching staff would have turned to Quinn first, except his escalator is the most horrendous of all.

Contracts dictated which QB started the season. And contracts will dictate which QB finishes it. Due to public pressure, Tebow did get his chance to throw a wrench in those plans, but he looks like he's going to fall flat.
Here's why your idea is flawed: Tebow sucks.

The whole premise for your argument was that they want to keep Tebow on the bench to save money and ensure good draft position.

Occam's razor says he wasn't good in practice and fan's aren't good evaluators of talent. Low and behold he starts. which assuming he keeps the job, would result in him hitting is escalators, destroying the idea that they weren't going to play him to save money. It is clear now that not only did he not deserve to start but is going to play himself out of the starting job. Saying "that was their secret plan all along" is completely idiotic. At the end of the day John Fox wants his offense to score points and wants to win games. He also doesn't want to piss off his players. Tebow was never ready and only got to start when Orton played his way out of the position.

The Broncos don't want to pay Tebow, but its because he isn't worth the contract he signed.

bendog
11-01-2011, 09:50 AM
Here's why your idea is flawed: Tebow sucks.

The whole premise for your argument was that they want to keep Tebow on the bench to save money and ensure good draft position.

Occam's razor says he wasn't good in practice and fan's aren't good evaluators of talent. Low and behold he starts. which assuming he keeps the job, would result in him hitting is escalators, destroying the idea that they weren't going to play him to save money. It is clear now that not only did he not deserve to start but is going to play himself out of the starting job. Saying "that was their secret plan all along" is completely idiotic. At the end of the day John Fox wants his offense to score points and wants to win games. He also doesn't want to piss off his players. Tebow was never ready and only got to start when Orton played his way out of the position.

The Broncos don't want to pay Tebow, but its because he isn't worth the contract he signed.

That whole Mia trade thing was merely part of the conspiracy, and EFX had no intention of trading Orton for even a first round pick!

BroncoInferno
11-01-2011, 09:51 AM
No. Disagree.

The FO saw how much Orton was sucking it up that they decided basically, "**** it. We can't do much worse with Tebow. At least he won't trip over his own feet".

Orton, as bad as he played this season, looked like Johnny Unitas compared to what we saw from Tebow against the Lions. Hell, I thought that Tebow, even if he didn't play great, would at least make things more exciting to watch than the human Ambien we had starting the first five games. Orton was positively electric in comparison to what was displayed yesterday.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
11-01-2011, 10:39 AM
Here's why your idea is flawed: Tebow sucks.

The whole premise for your argument was that they want to keep Tebow on the bench to save money and ensure good draft position.

Occam's razor says he wasn't good in practice and fan's aren't good evaluators of talent. Low and behold he starts. which assuming he keeps the job, would result in him hitting is escalators, destroying the idea that they weren't going to play him to save money. It is clear now that not only did he not deserve to start but is going to play himself out of the starting job. Saying "that was their secret plan all along" is completely idiotic. At the end of the day John Fox wants his offense to score points and wants to win games. He also doesn't want to piss off his players. Tebow was never ready and only got to start when Orton played his way out of the position.

The Broncos don't want to pay Tebow, but its because he isn't worth the contract he signed.


Actually, the premise was that they just wanted to save money if they kept the player, as well as preserve Tebow's trade value if not. At no point have I ever posted that Tebow is better than Orton or Quinn, and/or the team wants to keep him on the bench so they can tank for Luck. That's someone else. But your overall point is still valid.

And I agree, the Broncos did not want to pay him because he isn't worth the cost, at least based on what we've seen so far this year. But then, that's always been the argument. It's just too bad any trade value is going out the window by the weekend as well.

Blart
11-01-2011, 10:40 AM
Contracts dictated which QB started the season. And contracts will dictate which QB finishes it. Due to public pressure, Tebow did get his chance to throw a wrench in those plans, but he looks like he's going to fall flat.

While I agree with you that public pressure affected personnel decisions, it's more likely that performance dictated which QB started the season.

As Fontaine said last month, Tebow would have gladly restructured his contract if it meant starting. I couldn't imagine him holding out.

If Tebow wins the next 4 games in a row, will he be pulled due to contract escalators?

Mat'hir Uth Gan
11-01-2011, 10:57 AM
While I agree with you that public pressure affected personnel decisions, it's more likely that performance dictated which QB started the season.

As Fontaine said last month, Tebow would have gladly restructured his contract if it meant starting. I couldn't imagine him holding out.

If Tebow wins the next 4 games in a row, will he be pulled due to contract escalators?


No. He has clearly been given his chance. And he's flushing it down the toilet. Though, I do think this chance has been given to him with the clear directions that if he wants to QB for the Broncos, he has to do so as a pocket passer. We're definitely not seeing a Carolina/Cam Newton type offensive scheme set up for him.

I believe EFX had a plan to avoid Tebow's mid-tier escalator, which I thought was a sound business decision, if unpopular. I think between Orton and public pressure, that plan got erased. The new plan appears to be sink or swim as a pocket passer and the odds are heavily against Tebow swimming.

To me, I think the thought process went from preserving his value for trade purposes or an extended evaluation period into 2013, to now just, **** it, either play our scheme and do it well, or we're drafting a QB in Round 1 and possibly releasing Tebow. Trade value be damned.

Play2win
11-01-2011, 10:59 AM
what a waste of bad logic this whole thread was.

bendog
11-01-2011, 11:05 AM
No. He has clearly been given his chance. And he's flushing it down the toilet. Though, I do think this chance has been given to him with the clear directions that if he wants to QB for the Broncos, he has to do so as a pocket passer. We're definitely not seeing a Carolina/Cam Newton type offensive scheme set up for him.

I believe EFX had a plan to avoid Tebow's mid-tier escalator, which I thought was a sound business decision, if unpopular. I think between Orton and public pressure, that plan got erased. The new plan appears to be sink or swim as a pocket passer and the odds are heavily against Tebow swimming.

To me, I think the thought process went from preserving his value for trade purposes or an extended evaluation period into 2013, to now just, **** it, either play our scheme and do it well, or we're drafting a QB in Round 1 and possibly releasing Tebow. Trade value be damned.

If tebow could make the plays passing and picking up blitzes that Cam is making, Tebow would have started the season.

bendog
11-01-2011, 11:05 AM
what a waste of bad logic this whole thread was.

my bad, responded to another post by a Fla jackass. Please make them go away soon, God.

broncocalijohn
11-01-2011, 11:27 AM
my bad, responded to another post by a Fla jackass. Please make them go away soon, God.

So many of those. You didn't narrow it down. That is a big state.

Cito Pelon
11-05-2011, 01:23 AM
what a waste of bad logic this whole thread was.

Apparently, people have been trying to apply Machiavellian, Nixonian, Stalinesque, Donald Trumpian, Gordon Gekkonian type of scheming to the BBT.

Powderaddict
11-05-2011, 06:41 AM
Apparently, people have been trying to apply Machiavellian, Nixonian, Stalinesque, Donald Trumpian, Gordon Gekkonian type of scheming to the BBT.

I'd add George Bushian to that list.

Popps
11-05-2011, 09:35 AM
Gee, the conspiracy theory was horse ****. Wow, who would have seen that coming?

Cito Pelon
11-05-2011, 10:16 AM
Gee, the conspiracy theory was horse ****. Wow, who would have seen that coming?

Don't give up on it yet. If Elway calls Tebow "Jim Elbow" it's back in business.