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Taco John
09-02-2011, 11:44 PM
I believe that if the goal is to win a championship, the best thing this team can do is trade Orton before the trade deadline. Further, I think that not moving him is a huge step backwards (over the long term route to the trophy).

I like Orton, and if the goal is to just get to 8-8 this season, then sure, keep him around. But if we're looking at the long term, he needs to be moved.

1. We're not going to get anything for Brady Quinn. He showed once again vs. Arizona in a game with relatively little pressure that he is not up to being a starting level pro quarterback. He's a backup at best - which is not a bad asset for us to have - a "no threat" asset who can plug a hole if you need him to and allow your starter to feel like he's not got anyone breathing down his neck.

2. Orton isn't coming back next year without a serious offer. Denver fans treat the guy like garbage. The fans want Tebow. Orton is the better pure quarterback on this team by a long shot, and probably gives us the best chance to win the most amount of games this year (I say "probably" because Tebow has the X factor), but winning games with Orton this year does us no good when he walks to any number of AFC teams that are looking for quarterbacks next season.

3. We should not chance losing Adam Weber. We need all the young quarterbacks we can get right now, and next season we're looking at losing both Orton and Quinn to free agency.

The Denver Broncos should:

1) Move Orton as quickly as possible while his value is at its absolute peak (he's got nowhere to go but down from this point each and every week - this team is not deep and it's going to hurt Kyle's value as the season progresses).

2) Keep Brady Quinn as a backup. I hate it, you hate it, but he's got no trade value, and cutting him at this point is a huge waste.

3) Start Tebow and let him sink or swim. With a full season, we'll know whether or not we should be drafting a QB next year in the first round or the third round.

4) Keep Adam Weber on the active Roster as #3 and keep him involved.

5) Draft a QB in the first or the third round of next year depending on how Tebow does. Either way, with Brady on his way out, we'll need someone.

I want to make it clear that this take is not an indictment on Orton. I like the guy. He's a solid guy. But he's not coming back to Denver. You can see it in his interviews. He hates it here. He isn't appreciated. He's got Tebow hovering over his shoulder. I'm pretty sure that Elway isn't going to want to give him a big enough contract to make him want to stick around - and even if he did the fans would hold it against him. I think we all know that the guy is going to be booed in Denver before September is through, and Tebow's name is going to be chanted. It's not fair, but that's life.

Imagine we keep Orton, and cut Quinn... And let's say we go 8-8 with the guy - hell let's say we go 10-6. And then we lose Orton to Free Agency. How are we any better off than if we were to move Orton now?

epicSocialism4tw
09-02-2011, 11:48 PM
If they were smart, they would have traded Orton to Miami without even consulting him and letting him throw a wrench in the deal.

Mogulseeker
09-02-2011, 11:55 PM
Repped. I agree.... I'll post a longer response later, but I just took an Ambien cause I have golf practice early tomorrow morning.

BoulderBum
09-02-2011, 11:57 PM
If they were smart, they would have traded Orton to Miami without even consulting him and letting him throw a wrench in the deal.

Both teams had to sign off on the deal, and Miami didn't want a 1 yr rental either... They tried to talk extension and talks broke down.

As for the OP, would you really trade a 10-6 season w/ Orton for a year of experience w/ Tebow? In preseason, we talk like there's little difference between 8-8 and 4-12, but on a weekly basis, losing sucks. I'd gladly watch Tebow on the bench and Orton walk next year for a potential playoff run @10-6 (your words not mine, i see them 8-8 at best)

epicSocialism4tw
09-02-2011, 11:57 PM
Repped. I agree.... I'll post a longer response later, but I just took an Ambien cause I have golf practice early tomorrow morning.

You should draw yourself a map to the toilet so you don't drop a load in the basement.

Broncoman13
09-03-2011, 12:02 AM
The problem is who is going to want Kyle Orton this late in the game. At this point teams are just going to roll with what they have. You think the Miami Dolphins aren't thinking about the same "Suck for Luck" campaign?

ant1999e
09-03-2011, 12:16 AM
There is a reason why Taco runs the greatest website on the internet. This guy is a smart man. :~ohyah!:

Pick Six
09-03-2011, 12:20 AM
8-8 would be a HUGE improvement over last year. The Broncos don't seem to be in a hurry to extend Orton's contract. That says that he is likely gone, after this season. Give the offensive line a year to gel, and Tebow MAY be scary good, next year. Right now, he seems tentative when the protection breaks down. I don't see the harm in waiting one more year for Tebow, until he figures out the pace of the NFL game...

NFLBRONCO
09-03-2011, 12:27 AM
I agree with TJ on this one we should do it. I'm not so sure FO will with Quinn flopping though.

Blueflame
09-03-2011, 12:29 AM
I believe that if the goal is to win a championship, the best thing this team can do is trade Orton before the trade deadline. Further, I think that not moving him is a huge step backwards (over the long term route to the trophy).

I like Orton, and if the goal is to just get to 8-8 this season, then sure, keep him around. But if we're looking at the long term, he needs to be moved.

1. We're not going to get anything for Brady Quinn. He showed once again vs. Arizona in a game with relatively little pressure that he is not up to being a starting level pro quarterback. He's a backup at best - which is not a bad asset for us to have - a "no threat" asset who can plug a hole if you need him to and allow your starter to feel like he's not got anyone breathing down his neck.

2. Orton isn't coming back next year without a serious offer. Denver fans treat the guy like garbage. The fans want Tebow. Orton is the better pure quarterback on this team by a long shot, and probably gives us the best chance to win the most amount of games this year (I say "probably" because Tebow has the X factor), but winning games with Orton this year does us no good when he walks to any number of AFC teams that are looking for quarterbacks next season.

3. We should not chance losing Adam Weber. We need all the young quarterbacks we can get right now, and next season we're looking at losing both Orton and Quinn to free agency.

The Denver Broncos should:

1) Move Orton as quickly as possible while his value is at its absolute peak (he's got nowhere to go but down from this point each and every week - this team is not deep and it's going to hurt Kyle's value as the season progresses).

2) Keep Brady Quinn as a backup. I hate it, you hate it, but he's got no trade value, and cutting him at this point is a huge waste.

3) Start Tebow and let him sink or swim. With a full season, we'll know whether or not we should be drafting a QB next year in the first round or the third round.

4) Keep Adam Weber on the active Roster as #3 and keep him involved.

5) Draft a QB in the first or the third round of next year depending on how Tebow does. Either way, with Brady on his way out, we'll need someone.

I want to make it clear that this take is not an indictment on Orton. I like the guy. He's a solid guy. But he's not coming back to Denver. You can see it in his interviews. He hates it here. He isn't appreciated. He's got Tebow hovering over his shoulder. I'm pretty sure that Elway isn't going to want to give him a big enough contract to make him want to stick around - and even if he did the fans would hold it against him. I think we all know that the guy is going to be booed in Denver before September is through, and Tebow's name is going to be chanted. It's not fair, but that's life.

Imagine we keep Orton, and cut Quinn... And let's say we go 8-8 with the guy - hell let's say we go 10-6. And then we lose Orton to Free Agency. How are we any better off than if we were to move Orton now?

No other team's gonna give us much value for Orton, Quinn or Tebow at this point in time. Orton's contract is problematic for a trade and both Quinn and Tebow looked abysmal last night. And trading Orton for a day-old bologna sandwich = "an unearned promotion" for one of the backups. Then we'd face the question of: Quinn or Tebow? "I" think this might throw the locker room into total chaos...

NFLBRONCO
09-03-2011, 12:32 AM
No other team's gonna give us much value for Orton, Quinn or Tebow at this point in time. Orton's contract is problematic for a trade and both Quinn and Tebow looked abysmal last night. And trading Orton for a day-old bologna sandwich = "an unearned promotion" for one of the backups. Then we'd face the question of: Quinn or Tebow? "I" think this might throw the locker room into total chaos...

I agree with this too

epicSocialism4tw
09-03-2011, 12:41 AM
No other team's gonna give us much value for Orton, Quinn or Tebow at this point in time. Orton's contract is problematic for a trade and both Quinn and Tebow looked abysmal last night. And trading Orton for a day-old bologna sandwich = "an unearned promotion" for one of the backups. Then we'd face the question of: Quinn or Tebow? "I" think this might throw the locker room into total chaos...

There would be no question of Quinn or Tebow.

Quinn is probably a gnats butt away from the chopping block right now.

ZONA
09-03-2011, 12:51 AM
It's a mute point. It's too late. We'll probably get a compensation pick that's as good as anybody is willing to offer in a trade anyway. I think the Broncos plan is to play Orton this year and hope he plays well enough so that when he becomes a FA, he is able to sign a decent contract with somebody. The better his contract, the better the compensation pick we get. That's how I see this thing going anyway.

Blueflame
09-03-2011, 12:52 AM
There would be no question of Quinn or Tebow.

Quinn is probably a gnats butt away from the chopping block right now.

Outside of one good play, Tebow was also abysmal last night. He certainly didn't win a starting role with that performance against Arizona's backups (Quinn was playing their starters).

Houshyamama
09-03-2011, 12:59 AM
Right now, Tebow sucks as an NFL starting QB. He'll be fine against crappy teams, but will struggle greatly against the good defenses. I know, I know you're thinking every rookie does. But trade a serviceable QB in Orton to move Tebow into action before he's ready? For what, a 3rd instead of a 5th?

Sit Tebow this year, let him learn. Start Orton and we'll see what he's really made of. If Orton plays well this year then it's his team and we can find another roll for Tebow. If Orton sinks then we can move Tebow into the starting roll when he's ready.

Starting Tebow this year is a HUGE mistake.

epicSocialism4tw
09-03-2011, 01:03 AM
Outside of one good play, Tebow was also abysmal last night. He certainly didn't win a starting role with that performance against Arizona's backups (Quinn was playing their starters).

That's a strange world to live in where a 130 QB rating is 'abysmal'.

Quinn's rating was under 10, which apparently was excuseable while Tebow's 130 rating was 'abysmal'.

Odd.

epicSocialism4tw
09-03-2011, 01:07 AM
Right now, Tebow sucks as an NFL starting QB. He'll be fine against crappy teams, but will struggle greatly against the good defenses. I know, I know you're thinking every rookie does. But trade a serviceable QB in Orton to move Tebow into action before he's ready? For what, a 3rd instead of a 5th?

Sit Tebow this year, let him learn. Start Orton and we'll see what he's really made of. If Orton plays well this year then it's his team and we can find another roll for Tebow. If Orton sinks then we can move Tebow into the starting roll when he's ready.

Starting Tebow this year is a HUGE mistake.

I honestly think that the difference in production between Tebow and Orton would be marginal at best, while Tebow has potential to be exceptionally more productive this season.

Orton is the same Orton from last season and the season before. We know what he is, and we know that its not good enough.

Taco John
09-03-2011, 01:10 AM
But trade a serviceable QB in Orton to move Tebow into action before he's ready?

I want to make it clear that I see moving Orton as a move only to get as much value as we can out of our quarterback situation before we lose all of the value that we've invested to this point (from Cutler to Hillis et al). It has nothing to do with moving Tebow into action - though that would be a result of trading Orton. We're going to lose both Orton and Brady and risk seeing absolutely ZERO on return toward our goal of winning a championship.

My other suggestion, would be to offer Kyle a contract extension ASAP. I'm not sure how comfortable the braintrust would be in doing that right now. I'm certain, however, that I know how the fanbase would react to it. I'm pretty certain that I know how Orton's agent would react to it as well.



Sit Tebow this year, let him learn.

What do you think Tebow is going to learn sitting on the sidelines? Why would we want the guy to sit on the sidelines anyway unless the plan is to develop him for the long term? Is that the plan? I don't think it is. I, frankly, don't think that there is a Tebow plan.

Start Orton and we'll see what he's really made of. If Orton plays well this year then it's his team and we can find another roll for Tebow. If Orton sinks then we can move Tebow into the starting roll when he's ready.

Who doesn't already know what Orton is made of? And even if Orton plays well for us this year, it's only to boost his free agency value, which does us no good.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
09-03-2011, 01:11 AM
If they were smart, they would have traded Orton to Miami without even consulting him and letting him throw a wrench in the deal.

Agreed. But Orton could choose to not play ala Plummer and we get Jack.

Blueflame
09-03-2011, 01:22 AM
That's a strange world to live in where a 130 QB rating is 'abysmal'.

Quinn's rating was under 10, which apparently was excuseable while Tebow's 130 rating was 'abysmal'.

Odd.

Let's get real. Tebow put up a single TD vs. Arizona's (not an elite team in the NFL) backups. Oh... and please show me where I excused Quinn while also categorizing his performance as "abysmal'.

Taco John
09-03-2011, 01:24 AM
By the way - the front office would never do this because of the message it would send: "we're playing for next year, not this year." But frankly, we're not going to win more than 8 games this year with our depth, and as far as I can tell, that's a high estimate. Our starters can compete if healthy, but our depth is very shallow, and our quarterback situation over the long term is pretty shakey. I'm looking for ways to minimize the bleeding over the long term, not treat a short term symptom. I'd rather see us get through as much of the pain as quickly as possible rather than extending it over multiple seasons. I think you do that by swallowing the medicine and trading Orton now and frankly, throwing Tebow to the wolves.

I understand this isn't going to happen, but I think it would be better than losing all the value we've invested in both Orton and Quinn, and being left with the Tebow question mark hanging over our heads for another offseason.

The Joker
09-03-2011, 01:29 AM
Problem is that Orton probably thinks he should be getting Kolb money, and no team in the NFL is going to give it to him.

He'll want to play this year, have a great season and prove that he deserves the big contract.

Only way we can move him is if it's to a team looking for a one year rental while they develop their rookie. (Bengals, Titans, Panthers, Jags maybe?) And teams aren't going to give up much more than a 5th round for a mediocre one year rental.

I'd still do it and see what Tebow has. Either he plays great and we have our QBOTF or he sucks and we get a better shot at Luck. Seems a win-win to me.

No way our FO is going to do it though, and I'm not sure I understand why.

Archer81
09-03-2011, 01:29 AM
Outside of one good play, Tebow was also abysmal last night. 2. He certainly didn't win a starting role with that performance against Arizona's backups (1. Quinn was playing their starters).


1. For a series.

2. He did get the team on the board, and got them in FG range...well Prater's FG range.

Considering the lack of depth along the o-line it is not shocking Quinn and Tebow had a rough go of it. Of the two, Tebow managed to put a scoring drive together. When Tebow settled down, the offense moved the ball, which is something people have been crying he "cant" do. I dont think Orton is going anywhere this year, and from what I have seen a year to work on Tebow's footwork would only help him.

:Broncos:

epicSocialism4tw
09-03-2011, 01:30 AM
Let's get real. Tebow put up a single TD vs. Arizona's (not an elite team in the NFL) backups.

That's 'getting real'?

You said that Tebow 'made one good play'.

That's extreme hyperbole that should make anyone who reads that opinion a little skeptical of your intentions...because your observation is not true to life.

Dude had a 130 QB rating despite being constantly under seige.

The Joker
09-03-2011, 01:30 AM
Agreed. But Orton could choose to not play ala Plummer and we get Jack.

No way in hell he does that.

He's desperate for a big contract, and this year is his chance to show teams he's worth it. No doubt he'd rather play in Denver because he knows the offense and receivers... but if we trade him he'll have no choice but to suck it up and play.

Blueflame
09-03-2011, 01:33 AM
By the way - the front office would never do this because of the message it would send: "we're playing for next year, not this year." But frankly, we're not going to win more than 8 games this year with our depth, and as far as I can tell, that's a high estimate. Our starters can compete if healthy, but our depth is very shallow, and our quarterback situation over the long term is pretty shakey. I'm looking for ways to minimize the bleeding over the long term, not treat a short term symptom. I'd rather see us get through as much of the pain as quickly as possible rather than extending it over multiple seasons. I think you do that by swallowing the medicine and trading Orton now and frankly, throwing Tebow to the wolves.

I understand this isn't going to happen, but I think it would be better than losing all the value we've invested in both Orton and Quinn, and being left with the Tebow question mark hanging over our heads for another offseason.

I'd personally rather see Tebow traded or even flat-out cut... let some other franchise deal with the distractions of his media circus (and the MacGruders of the interwebs). And yes I realize this isn't a "mainstream" opinion. Oh well.

Pseudofool
09-03-2011, 01:34 AM
All sensible TJ, but I heard someone put it this way: that it's simply impossible for NFL coaches and FOs to look past any single season (such coaches get fired, right quick*). Losing to win in the short term only makes sense in the abstract, to endure the process and maintain credibility is near impossible. The players who are trying to kill it for wins *this season* would feel betrayed if their success was jettisoned and somehow seen as a longterm failure. The ability to attract winning, work-hard players would be eroded by trading players who are successful in the present.

Sure we may not get value for Orton (or Quinn for that matter) nor mayhaps will we draft as high next year if Orton remains the starter. But the continuity of leadership and the crystallization of a legitimate reward for hard play system will show dividends in future years--even if such notions are abstract and unquantifiable, they are very real.

Once the Broncos started the preseason with Orton, any notion of trading the guy without repercussions to the Broncos leadership went straight out the window.

*Indeed is this not the approach McD took with the QBs, trade the overvalued asset in Cutler for future assets and a caretaker QB, draft a QB who needs much work and should be ready by the time the teams talent is in full swing. Of course, McD lost the confidence of everyone before that rational could be proven to make sense.

baja
09-03-2011, 01:35 AM
I want to make it clear that I see moving Orton as a move only to get as much value as we can out of our quarterback situation before we lose all of the value that we've invested to this point (from Cutler to Hillis et al). It has nothing to do with moving Tebow into action - though that would be a result of trading Orton. We're going to lose both Orton and Brady and risk seeing absolutely ZERO on return toward our goal of winning a championship.

My other suggestion, would be to offer Kyle a contract extension ASAP. I'm not sure how comfortable the braintrust would be in doing that right now. I'm certain, however, that I know how the fanbase would react to it. I'm pretty certain that I know how Orton's agent would react to it as well.







What do you think Tebow is going to learn sitting on the sidelines? Why would we want the guy to sit on the sidelines anyway unless the plan is to develop him for the long term? Is that the plan? I don't think it is. I, frankly, don't think that there is a Tebow plan.



Who doesn't already know what Orton is made of? And even if Orton plays well for us this year, it's only to boost his free agency value, which does us no good.

How much more than the third round compensatory pick do you think we get for Kyle ?

Pseudofool
09-03-2011, 01:38 AM
I'd personally rather see Tebow traded or even flat-out cut... let some other franchise deal with the distractions of his media circus (and the MacGruders of the interwebs). And yes I realize this isn't a "mainstream" opinion. Oh well.Does the media circus bother anyone but us fans? Tebow isn't a bad seed, even if there's a much ado about nothing given his media attention. To cut him is hasty, and he hasn't played himself out of a roster spot that I could see by any stretch. Trading would be selling low, and starting completely over at QB. At worse, we can draft another QB along with a mediocre but ticket-selling Tebow.

epicSocialism4tw
09-03-2011, 01:39 AM
I'd personally rather see Tebow traded or even flat-out cut... let some other franchise deal with the distractions of his media circus (and the MacGruders of the interwebs). And yes I realize this isn't a "mainstream" opinion. Oh well.

Well, that's an opinion that doesn't take into account what's best for the team and their chances of winning football games.

ton80
09-03-2011, 01:40 AM
I believe that if the goal is to win a championship, the best thing this team can do is trade Orton before the trade deadline. Further, I think that not moving him is a huge step backwards (over the long term route to the trophy).

I like Orton, and if the goal is to just get to 8-8 this season, then sure, keep him around. But if we're looking at the long term, he needs to be moved.

1. We're not going to get anything for Brady Quinn. He showed once again vs. Arizona in a game with relatively little pressure that he is not up to being a starting level pro quarterback. He's a backup at best - which is not a bad asset for us to have - a "no threat" asset who can plug a hole if you need him to and allow your starter to feel like he's not got anyone breathing down his neck.

2. Orton isn't coming back next year without a serious offer. Denver fans treat the guy like garbage. The fans want Tebow. Orton is the better pure quarterback on this team by a long shot, and probably gives us the best chance to win the most amount of games this year (I say "probably" because Tebow has the X factor), but winning games with Orton this year does us no good when he walks to any number of AFC teams that are looking for quarterbacks next season.

3. We should not chance losing Adam Weber. We need all the young quarterbacks we can get right now, and next season we're looking at losing both Orton and Quinn to free agency.

The Denver Broncos should:

1) Move Orton as quickly as possible while his value is at its absolute peak (he's got nowhere to go but down from this point each and every week - this team is not deep and it's going to hurt Kyle's value as the season progresses).

2) Keep Brady Quinn as a backup. I hate it, you hate it, but he's got no trade value, and cutting him at this point is a huge waste.

3) Start Tebow and let him sink or swim. With a full season, we'll know whether or not we should be drafting a QB next year in the first round or the third round.

4) Keep Adam Weber on the active Roster as #3 and keep him involved.

5) Draft a QB in the first or the third round of next year depending on how Tebow does. Either way, with Brady on his way out, we'll need someone.

I want to make it clear that this take is not an indictment on Orton. I like the guy. He's a solid guy. But he's not coming back to Denver. You can see it in his interviews. He hates it here. He isn't appreciated. He's got Tebow hovering over his shoulder. I'm pretty sure that Elway isn't going to want to give him a big enough contract to make him want to stick around - and even if he did the fans would hold it against him. I think we all know that the guy is going to be booed in Denver before September is through, and Tebow's name is going to be chanted. It's not fair, but that's life.

Imagine we keep Orton, and cut Quinn... And let's say we go 8-8 with the guy - hell let's say we go 10-6. And then we lose Orton to Free Agency. How are we any better off than if we were to move Orton now?

Orton may possess the skill set that coach Fox likes in a qb. It wouldn't shock me if ends up in Denver longer than expected.

Blueflame
09-03-2011, 01:41 AM
That's 'getting real'?

You said that Tebow 'made one good play'.

That's extreme hyperbole that should make anyone who reads that opinion a little skeptical of your intentions...because your observation is not true to life.

Dude had a 130 QB rating despite being constantly under seige.

It was a preseason game in which none of our starters played a down.... and he was "under seige (sic)" by bubble players trying to earn a roster spot on a weak NFC West team.

Archer81
09-03-2011, 01:42 AM
I doubt Tebow or Orton are going anywhere anytime soon. Quinn might be cut in 13 hours. The media circus around Tebow is what it is when you have a high profile guy. We might remember this has happened before with a QB. You could logically argue the attention Elway received was worse than what Tebow is getting. As far as I know nobody reported back on the halloween candy Tebow gives out.

:Broncos:

epicSocialism4tw
09-03-2011, 01:43 AM
It was a preseason game in which none of our starters played a down.... and he was "under seige (sic)" by bubble players trying to earn a roster spot on a weak NFC West team.

Sounds like you just have an agenda and are unwilling to be budged by what is happening in real life.

The statistics are there for you to see.

The difference between the production of Tebow and Orton in the preseason is marginal.

cutthemdown
09-03-2011, 01:43 AM
No team will trade for him without a new deal and Orton has decided his best chance at 3500 yrds and 20 tds is in Denver. He hits those numbers, wins 7-9 games and he will get paid.

Also at this point I'm not sure ASAP is not already gone by as too late. If we could get a 2nd round pick maybe, but still not sure any one decision sets the team back too far. This yr us more about finding a defensive identity. It morphed into a QB thing because of Mcdaniels stupid drafting. If anything they wanted to trade Quinn and he stunk it up ruining any chance.

epicSocialism4tw
09-03-2011, 01:44 AM
I doubt Tebow or Orton are going anywhere anytime soon. Quinn might be cut in 13 hours. The media circus around Tebow is what it is when you have a high profile guy. We might remember this has happened before with a QB. You could logically argue the attention Elway received was worse than what Tebow is getting. As far as I know nobody reported back on the halloween candy Tebow gives out.

:Broncos:

Nah, but they do report on his virginity and any number of other Tebow personal issues.

I don't remember there ever being a press conference where Elway got asked about his virginity.

Archer81
09-03-2011, 01:46 AM
Nah, but they do report on his virginity and any number of other Tebow personal issues.


Is that any different than reporting on Elway's kid's college choices or his divorce or his selling of his autodealership?

Denver is crazy about their football to the point that the equivelent of tiger beat reporting is news.

:Broncos:

Blueflame
09-03-2011, 01:47 AM
Does the media circus bother anyone but us fans? Tebow isn't a bad seed, even if there's a much ado about nothing given his media attention. To cut him is hasty, and he hasn't played himself out of a roster spot that I could see by any stretch. Trading would be selling low, and starting completely over at QB. At worse, we can draft another QB along with a mediocre but ticket-selling Tebow.

Is there any way that the Tebow media circus "can't/won't" affect or influence the locker room and/or team chemistry? It will. And the effects probably won't be positive for the Broncos.

epicSocialism4tw
09-03-2011, 01:47 AM
Is that any different than reporting on Elway's kid's college choices or his divorce or his selling of his autodealership?

Denver is crazy about their football to the point that the equivelent of tiger beat reporting is news.

:Broncos:

Oh, you can bet that if Tebow plays QB in Denver for the next 10 years that the Tiger Beat types will follow him around to the ends of the earth for some entertainment news-type nonsense.

epicSocialism4tw
09-03-2011, 01:49 AM
Is there any way that the Tebow media circus "can't/won't" affect or influence the locker room and/or team chemistry? It will. And the effects probably won't be positive for the Broncos.

Men don't get jealous about that kind of crap.

But then again, Orton hasn't made a repuation for himself as a mans man. He needs his teammates to pat him on the butt in public.

I wonder what his teammates think when he goes fetal?

Pseudofool
09-03-2011, 01:51 AM
Is there any way that the Tebow media circus "can't/won't" affect or influence the locker room and/or team chemistry? It will. And the effects probably won't be positive for the Broncos.One could say the same thing about Tebow's leadership and teamoriented attitude and work ethic. (You can't suggest that one abstract cultural influence has an affect while another does not; as there's no evidence to either). Sure, it's a distraction, but as I say, since he's not a bad seed, and evidently a descent guy to have around, I'm sure the players at most scoff at the media circus. The only guy whom it would really effect would be Orton, and he seems totally poised to deal with it.

Archer81
09-03-2011, 01:52 AM
Is there any way that the Tebow media circus "can't/won't" affect or influence the locker room and/or team chemistry? It will. And the effects probably won't be positive for the Broncos.


The media circus strikes me as utterly concocted by the denver media to create stories for what was a 4-12 team. When you had a lousy team and the previous year's starter is still starting, the most popular guy in town is the backup QB.

Otherwise the 53 dudes who will be the 2011 Broncos are going to be in their little bubble for the next 5 months and probably wont care and wont really know how much the media is yanking the fan's chains. Its what they do.

:Broncos:

Blueflame
09-03-2011, 01:53 AM
Sounds like you just have an agenda and are unwilling to be budged by what is happening in real life.

The statistics are there for you to see.

The difference between the production of Tebow and Orton in the preseason is marginal.

Um...no, it ain't me who's arguing endlessly for the coaches' decision to be overturned and a QB who hasn't earned it and isn't anywhere near ready to be elevated to the starting role.

Taco John
09-03-2011, 01:54 AM
Orton may possess the skill set that coach Fox likes in a qb. It wouldn't shock me if ends up in Denver longer than expected.

Did you hear that interview when they asked Orton about being in Denver next year, and he said "you'll have to ask my agent that." That's what you say when you have a calendar on your wall that counts the days to when you're gone. Talk to Brian Griese. Talk to Jake Plummer. Talk to Jay Cutler. Ask them about living under the shadow of John Elway. Now imagine you've got Elway in the front office, and Tebow on the bench behind you.

If the Broncos could get Orton to a 5 year contract, I think that would be ok and put my concerns to rest. That would give us some stability. Not much - the fans would be livid and I expect he'd still be booed and there'd still be calls for Tebow. But I think Orton could probably shrug that off - but the thing is, he's got to know that Elway is going to turn around and draft a quarterback who is ultimately going to be "the guy." I cannot see any incentive for Orton strong enough to want to stick around here unless it is HUGE money - the kind of money that no team has any business paying Orton.

I have a hard time finding adequate incentives for Orton to want to stick around in Denver for any amount of time longer than he absolutely has to given where this team is right now. This isn't his team - he's just a stand in until either Tebow or Elway's guy takes over.

Archer81
09-03-2011, 01:54 AM
Oh, you can bet that if Tebow plays QB in Denver for the next 10 years that the Tiger Beat types will follow him around to the ends of the earth for some entertainment news-type nonsense.


Which is ridiculous. Outside of football I do not care if Tebow is a virgin, can do 10 standing backflips or goes on vacation to alabama bible college. I only care about what he does from September to January.

:Broncos:

Blueflame
09-03-2011, 01:59 AM
Men don't get jealous about that kind of crap.

But then again, Orton hasn't made a repuation for himself as a mans man. He needs his teammates to pat him on the butt in public.

I wonder what his teammates think when he goes fetal?

These assertions are based on? ???

Taco John
09-03-2011, 02:01 AM
Men don't get jealous about that kind of crap.

But then again, Orton hasn't made a repuation for himself as a mans man. He needs his teammates to pat him on the butt in public.

I wonder what his teammates think when he goes fetal?


Everything I've heard has the locker room firmly behind Orton.

Blueflame
09-03-2011, 02:12 AM
Everything I've heard has the locker room firmly behind Orton.

But that means moving Orton via trade... especially for low compensation... would result in controversy and dissension in the locker room.

cutthemdown
09-03-2011, 02:27 AM
Also I want to say that I think feelings like TACO sort of show he didn't play sports or even compete much in anything super competitive. For a fan you might be able to stomach throwing away a yr just to try and get a better draft pick but thankfully athletes and coaches who want to compete don't feel that way.

You are asking the coaches, the front office, Elway and Bowlen to not field the best team possible this yr. To get rid of the best QB because you think it might be good for next yr. You can't even prove that is true.

Bronco_Beerslug
09-03-2011, 02:34 AM
Broncos missed the window for getting rid of Orton which equals a completely wasted season if he starts a significant percentage of the games.

Fox's offenses were ranked 20th in the league during his tenure at Carolina.
I guarantee his thinking is if he can win more game with Orton than anyone else, he will play him. Not really his fault, this line of thinking. Keeping coaching jobs depends on winning games but it sucks for the Broncos as an organization, not to move forward.

The Broncos will never win a SB with Orton (weak, slow, uncoordinated, horrible under pressure) at QB.

Taco John
09-03-2011, 02:35 AM
Also I want to say that I think feelings like TACO sort of show he didn't play sports or even compete much in anything super competitive. For a fan you might be able to stomach throwing away a yr just to try and get a better draft pick but thankfully athletes and coaches who want to compete don't feel that way.

You are asking the coaches, the front office, Elway and Bowlen to not field the best team possible this yr. To get rid of the best QB because you think it might be good for next yr. You can't even prove that is true.

I played sports (baseball and football) all the way up through high school, and intramurals in college. I'm not talking about throwing away a year. I'm not one who believes that Orton buys us many more wins than Tebow does. All things considered, how many wins did Orton buy us last year?

This isn't about getting a better draft pick. This is about getting back to a championship as quickly and painlessly as possible.

But no, I'm not talking about throwing away a season. What's the win differential? Maybe two wins? Maybe none?

It's true, I am looking at the big picture, and not just the short term gratification of those two wins.

OBF1
09-03-2011, 02:42 AM
Is there any way that the Tebow media circus "can't/won't" affect or influence the locker room and/or team chemistry? It will. And the effects probably won't be positive for the Broncos.

Yeah sure.... Just like the daily Tom Brady/Peyton Manning dog and pony show effected the Patriots and the Colts all the way to Superbowl championships.

Your posts are epic failure... Like you already mentioned, You do not like Tim Tebow on a personal level.

Pseudofool
09-03-2011, 02:45 AM
But no, I'm not talking about throwing away a season. What's the win differential? Maybe two wins? Maybe none?.Put another way: Is a third or second round pick really worth the loss in credibility the FO and coaching staff would face? To trade a superior player, and give teh job to an inferior one, even if only resulting in one or two losses, communicates to the players that the FO/coaching staff isn't serious about winning now, and I believe that it's very hard to recover from that belief season to season.

It's far better to lose out on a future player (draft pick) than it is to diminish (no matter how slight) the blue-collar ethic Fox and Elway seem to be working to create. Cynicism is contagious (I think we saw this with McD).

Bob's your Information Minister
09-03-2011, 02:46 AM
This is me reading this thread:

http://listentoleon.net/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/barak-water.gif

Blueflame
09-03-2011, 02:54 AM
Yeah sure.... Just like the daily Tom Brady/Peyton Manning dog and pony show effected the Patriots and the Colts all the way to Superbowl championships.

Your posts are epic failure... Like you already mentioned, You do not like Tim Tebow on a personal level.

Whatever... I'm completely ambivalent about Tim Tebow as a person (have never met him and probably never will). However... I intensely dislike the distractions he brings in his wake. And his performance on the field to date has not "made the distractions worth it". IMHO.

Oh, btw.... the "just like" comparison doesn't work. One of these things is not like the others:

Peyton Manning (starting QB)
Tom Brady (starting QB)
Tim Tebow

yeah... now that you mention "epic failure"... lol

Bronco_Beerslug
09-03-2011, 03:03 AM
Whatever... I'm completely ambivalent about Tim Tebow as a person (have never met him and probably never will). However... I intensely dislike the distractions he brings in his wake. And his performance on the field to date has not "made the distractions worth it". IMHO.
He's only started 3 games. Elway's first seasons had far more attention than Tebow has. I don't see any degree of "distraction" here that hurts anyone.

And his performance on the field so far is better than Elways, Vicks, P. Mannings, T. Bradys, etc. was in their first 3 starts.

Blueflame
09-03-2011, 03:30 AM
He's only started 3 games. Elway's first seasons had far more attention than Tebow has. I don't see any degree of "distraction" here that hurts anyone.

And his performance on the field so far is better than Elways, Vicks, P. Mannings, T. Bradys, etc. was in their first 3 starts.

Tebow only started those 3 games because the guy who won the starting job was dinged up.

The "Tebow thing" is a distraction because Tebow's clearly a multi-year project (not ready to start in 2011; maybe in 2012); Elway was NOT.

mosca
09-03-2011, 03:45 AM
The whole QB situation has been a joke since we let Cutler go. This team needs to have an actual plan for acquiring a great QB for the future. Just saying 'draft a guy next year' isn't that - there is no guarantee that said draft pick will even pan out, even if he's a first rounder - look how Tebow's panning out so far.

We need to trade or sign for a good QB (like we did when we signed Plummer) in the event that Tebow doesn't produce this year. Relying on the draft to get next year's starter just sets us back a few more years again. These 'rebuilding' seasons are getting pretty old.

Bronco fans seem to think that quality starters acquired in the draft grow on trees. Yes, it worked with Elway, and to some extent with Cutler. But look at how many QBs don't make it - Brady Quinn for example.

TailgateNut
09-03-2011, 03:59 AM
I'd personally rather see Tebow traded or even flat-out cut... let some other franchise deal with the distractions of his media circus (and the MacGruders of the interwebs). And yes I realize this isn't a "mainstream" opinion. Oh well.

This!

Blueflame
09-03-2011, 04:58 AM
The whole QB situation has been a joke since we let Cutler go. This team needs to have an actual plan for acquiring a great QB for the future. Just saying 'draft a guy next year' isn't that - there is no guarantee that said draft pick will even pan out, even if he's a first rounder - look how Tebow's panning out so far.

We need to trade or sign for a good QB (like we did when we signed Plummer) in the event that Tebow doesn't produce this year. Relying on the draft to get next year's starter just sets us back a few more years again. These 'rebuilding' seasons are getting pretty old.

Bronco fans seem to think that quality starters acquired in the draft grow on trees. Yes, it worked with Elway, and to some extent with Cutler. But look at how many QBs don't make it - Brady Quinn for example.

For every Drew Bledsoe, there's a Rick Mirer... and for every Peyton Manning; a Ryan Leaf. And I'll raise you a JaMarcus Russell. (point is... "being drafted in the 1st round" does not always = "success in the NFL")

Agamemnon
09-03-2011, 05:09 AM
The "trade Orton" ship has sailed unfortunately. Now we must cope with the consequences...

Ratboy
09-03-2011, 05:31 AM
The "trade Orton" ship has sailed unfortunately. Now we must cope with the consequences...

If we tossed him out there asking for a 3rd or 4th someone would bite.

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 05:40 AM
I believe that if the goal is to win a championship, the best thing this team can do is trade Orton before the trade deadline. Further, I think that not moving him is a huge step backwards (over the long term route to the trophy).

I like Orton, and if the goal is to just get to 8-8 this season, then sure, keep him around. But if we're looking at the long term, he needs to be moved.

1. We're not going to get anything for Brady Quinn. He showed once again vs. Arizona in a game with relatively little pressure that he is not up to being a starting level pro quarterback. He's a backup at best - which is not a bad asset for us to have - a "no threat" asset who can plug a hole if you need him to and allow your starter to feel like he's not got anyone breathing down his neck.

2. Orton isn't coming back next year without a serious offer. Denver fans treat the guy like garbage. The fans want Tebow. Orton is the better pure quarterback on this team by a long shot, and probably gives us the best chance to win the most amount of games this year (I say "probably" because Tebow has the X factor), but winning games with Orton this year does us no good when he walks to any number of AFC teams that are looking for quarterbacks next season.

3. We should not chance losing Adam Weber. We need all the young quarterbacks we can get right now, and next season we're looking at losing both Orton and Quinn to free agency.

The Denver Broncos should:

1) Move Orton as quickly as possible while his value is at its absolute peak (he's got nowhere to go but down from this point each and every week - this team is not deep and it's going to hurt Kyle's value as the season progresses).

2) Keep Brady Quinn as a backup. I hate it, you hate it, but he's got no trade value, and cutting him at this point is a huge waste.

3) Start Tebow and let him sink or swim. With a full season, we'll know whether or not we should be drafting a QB next year in the first round or the third round.

4) Keep Adam Weber on the active Roster as #3 and keep him involved.

5) Draft a QB in the first or the third round of next year depending on how Tebow does. Either way, with Brady on his way out, we'll need someone.

I want to make it clear that this take is not an indictment on Orton. I like the guy. He's a solid guy. But he's not coming back to Denver. You can see it in his interviews. He hates it here. He isn't appreciated. He's got Tebow hovering over his shoulder. I'm pretty sure that Elway isn't going to want to give him a big enough contract to make him want to stick around - and even if he did the fans would hold it against him. I think we all know that the guy is going to be booed in Denver before September is through, and Tebow's name is going to be chanted. It's not fair, but that's life.

Imagine we keep Orton, and cut Quinn... And let's say we go 8-8 with the guy - hell let's say we go 10-6. And then we lose Orton to Free Agency. How are we any better off than if we were to move Orton now?

A well-reasoned post. However, something else to consider is that prior to hiring and firing McDaniels, Bowlen had a reputation as an owner that would give coaches what they need to win. For whatever reason, Fox has made Orton his guy. To take Orton's guy away moves further away from the idea that Bowlen supports his coaches. An added dimension to this is that you often hear Fox is a players coach. And since there seems to be a loud faction of players supporting Orton (Lloyd), Fox has gravitated towards Orton.

I hope the front office sees your reasoning but Im not conviced they will.

bowtown
09-03-2011, 05:58 AM
I played sports (baseball and football) all the way up through high school, and intramurals in college. I'm not talking about throwing away a year. I'm not one who believes that Orton buys us many more wins than Tebow does. All things considered, how many wins did Orton buy us last year?

This isn't about getting a better draft pick. This is about getting back to a championship as quickly and painlessly as possible.

But no, I'm not talking about throwing away a season. What's the win differential? Maybe two wins? Maybe none?

It's true, I am looking at the big picture, and not just the short term gratification of those two wins.

The other possibility is that Orton has a great season, gets us to 8-8 or 9-6 and puts up above average number in doing so. I think at that point he would command close to the money he wants and could be franchised and traded. There are going to be a lot more teams looking for a QB "solution" at the end of this season than there are right now. I think that trading Orton at this point is unrealistic, and I think starting Tebow is hasty. The best scenario at this point is to root for Orton to have a lights out season, first because we are Broncos fans, and second so we can realize some value for Orton at the end of the year.

BroncoInferno
09-03-2011, 06:27 AM
The problem is that the peak of Orton's value has come and gone. With the start of the regular season only a week away, there isn't sufficient time to move him somewhere and learn a new offense before the start of the season. Also, for those who suggested we just trade Orton without consulting him to avoid a contract issue holding up the trade.....no team is going to trade anything significant for a one year rental. It should go without saying that any team trading significant compensation for a QB on a one year deal is going to want to lock him in long term. Anyway, it's not happening at this point.

Pony Boy
09-03-2011, 06:38 AM
Watching the Bronco's with Orton is like taking your cousin to the prom and saying well it's better than taking your sister.

Sir_Robin
09-03-2011, 06:44 AM
But that means moving Orton via trade... especially for low compensation... would result in controversy and dissension in the locker room.

ROFL!

I shudder every time I remember the controversy and dissension the 49ers had to deal with when they moved Joe Montana. I just can't fathom the repercussions of moving someone like Orton.

McDman
09-03-2011, 06:56 AM
That's a strange world to live in where a 130 QB rating is 'abysmal'.

Quinn's rating was under 10, which apparently was excuseable while Tebow's 130 rating was 'abysmal'.

Odd.

You are the king of looking at stats. Did you actually watch the game or just look at ESPN after it was over? Tebow had one good drive and looked lost on all of the others.

Blueflame
09-03-2011, 07:04 AM
ROFL!

I shudder every time I remember the controversy and dissension the 49ers had to deal with when they moved Joe Montana. I just can't fathom the repercussions of moving someone like Orton.

No one's saying Orton's a future HOF'er.... all that's being said is "he's the best QB on our roster right now" since Tebow is clearly a long way from being ready to start. And that's a sad epitaph for the McDaniels era.

strafen
09-03-2011, 07:05 AM
The other possibility is that Orton has a great season, gets us to 8-8 or 9-6 and puts up above average number in doing so. I think at that point he would command close to the money he wants and could be franchised and traded. There are going to be a lot more teams looking for a QB "solution" at the end of this season than there are right now. I think that trading Orton at this point is unrealistic, and I think starting Tebow is hasty. The best scenario at this point is to root for Orton to have a lights out season, first because we are Broncos fans, and second so we can realize some value for Orton at the end of the year.

You're repeating exactly what errand said in another post. both are wrong!

There are going to be some nice QBs coming out next year.
Those teams needing a QB right now will get theirs. Any team needing a QB this year will likely struggle including us.

So, the value of Orton won't be as high as you'd think.

Oh BTW man. We've been the joke of the NFL since hurricane Joshie swept town.
I don't think I can take another embarrassement by saying we could franchise Orton. Are you ****ing kidding me?
Franchise Orton so we can give him the money HE WANTS?
Did I read that right?
That's as stupid as stupid goes. Hilarious!LOLROFL!

orange crusher
09-03-2011, 07:05 AM
The other possibility is that Orton has a great season, gets us to 8-8 or 9-6 and puts up above average number in doing so. I think at that point he would command close to the money he wants and could be franchised and traded. There are going to be a lot more teams looking for a QB "solution" at the end of this season than there are right now. I think that trading Orton at this point is unrealistic, and I think starting Tebow is hasty. The best scenario at this point is to root for Orton to have a lights out season, first because we are Broncos fans, and second so we can realize some value for Orton at the end of the year.

I don't think there is ANY way Orton is going to command close to the money he wants and franchising him would be a horrible move.

Sir_Robin
09-03-2011, 07:05 AM
You are the king of looking at stats. Did you actually watch the game or just look at ESPN after it was over? Tebow had one good drive and looked lost on all of the others.

A very good point. That is why I don't get the controversy. How can you not go with the guy who looks lost when he produces as well as the polished vet at the peak of his ability?

Sir_Robin
09-03-2011, 07:07 AM
No one's saying Orton's a future HOF'er.... all that's being said is "he's the best QB on our roster right now" since Tebow is clearly a long way from being ready to start. And that's a sad epitaph for the McDaniels era.

Precisely, no one was saying that at all (until you just now). What someone was saying is there would be dissension in the locker room if Orton was traded. I merely provided an example of a much, much better player being traded without dissension. Try and stay on topic next time.

McDman
09-03-2011, 07:13 AM
If we let Orton go now it would be giving up on the season. I can't imagine the players would feel too great about that.

strafen
09-03-2011, 07:15 AM
I'm one of those convinced Tebow will learn by playing.
Sitting on the bench another year will be a colossal waste of time.
Waiting another year he will be in the same spot he is at right now.
Sitting him will do him no favors. The lack of OTA hurt him.

Throw him in there right now, and he will start delivering by the 5th game of the season.
Even as raw as he still is, he will find a way to win.
He'll be playing behind a much better OL, an improved running game, and a good defense. Of course those are the things Orton strives in, however, let's put the guy in most think is the future. We will be able to see with more precision what we've got.

If he pans out this season, then the sooner we can move on and focus on with ehat lies ahead. IF he's not, then we need to start devising a plan to draft the best QB we could draft next year...

Truth is, Tebow has not shown by the way he's played thus far, that he's as bad as people wish him to be...

Agamemnon
09-03-2011, 07:17 AM
If we let Orton go now it would be giving up on the season. I can't imagine the players would feel too great about that.

And here I was thinking that starting Orton pretty much kills our season before it's even started...

McDman
09-03-2011, 07:25 AM
I'm one of those convinced Tebow will learn by playing.
Sitting on the bench another year will be a colossal waste of time.
Waiting another year he will be in the same spot he is at right now.
Sitting him will do him no favors. The lack of OTA hurt him.

Throw him in there right now, and he will start delivering by the 5th game of the season.
Even as raw as he still is, he will find a way to win.
He'll be playing behind a much better OL, an improved running game, and a good defense. Of course those are the things Orton strives in, however, let's put the guy in most think is the future. We will be able to see with more precision what we've got.

If he pans out this season, then the sooner we can move on and focus on with ehat lies ahead. IF he's not, then we need to start devising a plan to draft the best QB we could draft next year...

Truth is, Tebow has not shown by the way he's played thus far, that he's as bad as people wish him to be...

No one on here wishes him to be bad. If I thought he gave us the best opportunity to win I'd want him to be starting.

Blueflame
09-03-2011, 07:25 AM
Precisely, no one was saying that at all (until you just now). What someone was saying is there would be dissension in the locker room if Orton was traded. I merely provided an example of a much, much better player being traded without dissension. Try and stay on topic next time.

If you're going to quote me, please grant me the courtesy of getting it right and in context.

Everything I've heard has the locker room firmly behind Orton.

But that means moving Orton via trade... especially for low compensation... would result in controversy and dissension in the locker room.

Broncos4tw
09-03-2011, 07:27 AM
I completely agree that getting rid of Orton and playing Tebow is the right answer for the team. But they won't do it. Economically, the team is going do what's best. If Tebow ends up being a bust, they have how many years of rebuilding? They would rather take almost made the playoffs sort of years, over not a chance in hell of making the playoff years. Because another year of 4 or 5 wins means lots of empty seats, loss of sales for next year, and years of rebuilding. Orton traded and Tebow busting means we are on training wheels for 3 + years. And with times as they are, the front office is not willing to do that.

I don't even think Tebow would be a bust. People talked quite a bit about Tebow's unorthodox playing style, but how he still wins games. That's what we are seeing when he plays. He seems like a happy-feet, one or two read focusing, run-happy QB with wonky mechanics. But at the end of the day, his QB rating is higher than the other guys, he makes more happen on broken plays, and makes shoddiness into greatness. I think the guys would play for him. They'd be resentful, at first.. but once he was playing, and his sheer drive and desire, and his work ethic came through every week, they would play for him.

It doesn't matter how much we the fans want Tebow though. The front office is making decisions with their pockebook, not based on the future of the team. If Orton starts to bomb halfway through the season, when the fans are chanting for Tebow, they put him in, and we still have people watching the games, even if we are losing.

dbfan21
09-03-2011, 07:30 AM
Right now, Tebow sucks as an NFL starting QB. He'll be fine against crappy teams, but will struggle greatly against the good defenses. I know, I know you're thinking every rookie does. But trade a serviceable QB in Orton to move Tebow into action before he's ready? For what, a 3rd instead of a 5th?

Sit Tebow this year, let him learn. Start Orton and we'll see what he's really made of. If Orton plays well this year then it's his team and we can find another roll for Tebow. If Orton sinks then we can move Tebow into the starting roll when he's ready.

Starting Tebow this year is a HUGE mistake.

As evidenced by my avatar, I am pro-Tebow. If my wish came true, he'd be an elite QB for this team for years to come.

While I want him to succeed, I agree with Housh in that starting him right now would not be a good idea. Let him get into games in certain situations, let him gain on-field experience as the season rolls on. Heck, if Orton totally blows or gets injured, then Tim can take his lumps while he learns. But I see it as a good situation for our future to let him learn more about the nuances of being an NFL QB, let him get some game action every week in specific situations, and let Orton help us win some games this year to keep the vets on the team happy (because this is an imoportant part that has been overlooked so far in this thread).

We are not going to hit the lottery with an Orton trade right now. We're looking at a 3rd rounder at best. So let Orton play is butt off to earn a huge contract (likely with another team) while picking up some wins in the process. It'll give our team some much needed confidence and the improved record will allow us to attract more quality free agents next offseason and get to the next level.

strafen
09-03-2011, 07:40 AM
If we let Orton go now it would be giving up on the season. I can't imagine the players would feel too great about that.

No. It will be addition by substracion.

strafen
09-03-2011, 07:48 AM
No one on here wishes him to be bad. If I thought he gave us the best opportunity to win I'd want him to be starting.

You don't know, I don't know, nobody knows.
We do know Orton what Orton bring us, don't we?
Tebow lack of OTA hurt him, what makes anyone here that sitting on the bench will be the best venue for him to learn.
You can bench coach Tebow all you want, until ypu get him on the field, he won't be making progress.
you've all seen him this year. He's probably worked on a few things of his own, but people noticed right away that he "regressed"!
Put his butt on the field, make him the starter and we will find out.
I ptomise you that by next year will be at this same position: Orton still our QB, Tebow still an unknown, and we're debating whether to sign Orton to a long term contract on the heels of a 7-9 season.

Old Dude
09-03-2011, 07:48 AM
Ain't gonna happen, folks. This regime wants to win games; they want to win now. Orton, by far, gives them the best shot at doing that.

The only way they reconsider is if someone offers them huge compensation in a trade. That's not gonna happen either. A third round pick is the best they'd get.

OABB
09-03-2011, 07:55 AM
Orton will never be traded, because he isnt worth what he thinks hes worth. end of story.

Sir_Robin
09-03-2011, 07:56 AM
If you're going to quote me, please grant me the courtesy of getting it right and in context.

Was post 67 not courteous enough for you? It is the exact quote you just offered after all. So to clarify, orton's teammates supporting him has no similarities to Montana's teammates supporting him and therefore my argument its invalid. Do I finally understand your position?

alkemical
09-03-2011, 08:11 AM
if the lack of OTA's and a camp hurt Tebow, why not accept that backing up and getting that work now won't be a benefit?

Bronco Vixen
09-03-2011, 08:11 AM
I believe that if the goal is to win a championship, the best thing this team can do is trade Orton before the trade deadline. Further, I think that not moving him is a huge step backwards (over the long term route to the trophy).

I like Orton, and if the goal is to just get to 8-8 this season, then sure, keep him around. But if we're looking at the long term, he needs to be moved.

1. We're not going to get anything for Brady Quinn. He showed once again vs. Arizona in a game with relatively little pressure that he is not up to being a starting level pro quarterback. He's a backup at best - which is not a bad asset for us to have - a "no threat" asset who can plug a hole if you need him to and allow your starter to feel like he's not got anyone breathing down his neck.

2. Orton isn't coming back next year without a serious offer. Denver fans treat the guy like garbage. The fans want Tebow. Orton is the better pure quarterback on this team by a long shot, and probably gives us the best chance to win the most amount of games this year (I say "probably" because Tebow has the X factor), but winning games with Orton this year does us no good when he walks to any number of AFC teams that are looking for quarterbacks next season.

3. We should not chance losing Adam Weber. We need all the young quarterbacks we can get right now, and next season we're looking at losing both Orton and Quinn to free agency.

The Denver Broncos should:

1) Move Orton as quickly as possible while his value is at its absolute peak (he's got nowhere to go but down from this point each and every week - this team is not deep and it's going to hurt Kyle's value as the season progresses).

2) Keep Brady Quinn as a backup. I hate it, you hate it, but he's got no trade value, and cutting him at this point is a huge waste.

3) Start Tebow and let him sink or swim. With a full season, we'll know whether or not we should be drafting a QB next year in the first round or the third round.

4) Keep Adam Weber on the active Roster as #3 and keep him involved.

5) Draft a QB in the first or the third round of next year depending on how Tebow does. Either way, with Brady on his way out, we'll need someone.

I want to make it clear that this take is not an indictment on Orton. I like the guy. He's a solid guy. But he's not coming back to Denver. You can see it in his interviews. He hates it here. He isn't appreciated. He's got Tebow hovering over his shoulder. I'm pretty sure that Elway isn't going to want to give him a big enough contract to make him want to stick around - and even if he did the fans would hold it against him. I think we all know that the guy is going to be booed in Denver before September is through, and Tebow's name is going to be chanted. It's not fair, but that's life.

Imagine we keep Orton, and cut Quinn... And let's say we go 8-8 with the guy - hell let's say we go 10-6. And then we lose Orton to Free Agency. How are we any better off than if we were to move Orton now?


Ugh!! So frustrating! This is exactly what many have been saying around here since day 1. It's not blind Tebow craziness to advocate for the better bigger picture for this team! Putting a mediocre 8-8 band aid on this franchise 1) prevents us from really seeing what we have in a potentially franchise changing player in tebow if given the necessary support - 1st round reps/game playing experience). I mean the dude is STILL managing to put up decent numbers with a lousy second team; or 2) missing out on one of the most talented QB classes to come around in a long time next year if tebow isn't the answer. THAT'S the issue - not blinding crazy tebow allegiance.

Agamemnon
09-03-2011, 08:14 AM
Ain't gonna happen, folks. This regime wants to win games; they want to win now. Orton, by far, gives them the best shot at doing that.

The only way they reconsider is if someone offers them huge compensation in a trade. That's not gonna happen either. A third round pick is the best they'd get.

I continue to be baffled by people thinking Orton gives us any real chance of winning despite all the evidence to the contrary...

oubronco
09-03-2011, 08:16 AM
The lockerroom would be in shambles

uplink
09-03-2011, 08:16 AM
What Fox should do is create a Tebow offensive package, probably designed out of the shotgun, and let Tim play some. If he plays well, the Tebow package gets on the field more. Then they can decide if they want the Tebow package to be the base offense next year or not, if not then they resign Kyle or someone else to play in tandem with the Tebow package.

On another note, I think Kyle fits well with Fox's offensive. Wouldn't be suprised if he is resigned. I guess there is always the franchise tag for next year?

Agamemnon
09-03-2011, 08:19 AM
What Fox should do is create a Tebow offensive package, probably designed out of the shotgun, and let Tim play some. If he plays well, the Tebow package gets on the field more. Then they can decide if they want the Tebow package to be the base offense next year or not, if not then they resign Kyle or someone else to play in tandem with the Tebow package.

On another note, I think Kyle fits well with Fox's offensive. Wouldn't be suprised if he is resigned. I guess there is always the franchise tag for next year?

LOL

The thought of paying Orton franchise money is absolutely absurd...

Sir_Robin
09-03-2011, 08:25 AM
LOL

The thought of paying Orton franchise money is absolutely absurd...

Hang on there! Are you sure you're considering all the angles? You do realize that this team is soooooooo supportive of orton that it would fall apart if he leaves or is demoted, right? Surely that's worth franchise money! How many players can you name with that kind of sway over a team full of professional athletes who seen positions of importance change multiple times over their careers?

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 08:26 AM
No one's saying Orton's a future HOF'er.... all that's being said is "he's the best QB on our roster right now" since Tebow is clearly a long way from being ready to start. And that's a sad epitaph for the McDaniels era.

Everyone keeps saying that except that really isnt supported by the numbers from actual games, which is ultimately what counts. And before you say that Tebow and Quinn were going against backups, it should be pointed out that Orton would have been worse than Tebow or Quinn when/if playing with Denvers 2nd and 3rd stringers.

Agamemnon
09-03-2011, 08:30 AM
Everyone keeps saying that except that really isnt supported by the numbers from actual games, which is ultimately what counts. And before you say that Tebow and Quinn were going against backups, it should be pointed out that Orton would have been worse than Tebow or Quinn when/if playing with Denvers 2nd and 3rd stringers.

Worse than Quinn in that last preseason game? Doubtful.

Worse than Tebow's 109 passer rating? Without question.

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 08:35 AM
Worse than Quinn in that last preseason game? Doubtful.

Worse than Tebow's 109 passer rating? Without question.

I actually said that with the last couple of preseason games in mind. Tebow was running for his life against the Seahawks. I also think Quinn performed better than Orton would have.

I think Orton is being gifted the starting position based on a variety of factors. Too many people are too easily influenced by word of mouth leaking out of camp based on too many things that are happening that have little relevance to real games.

I keep waiting for the negativity about Tebow to actually matchup with his performence in games. I'm still waiting. Apparently actual games don't mean as much as practice.

Cito Pelon
09-03-2011, 08:36 AM
Men don't get jealous about that kind of crap.

But then again, Orton hasn't made a repuation for himself as a mans man. He needs his teammates to pat him on the butt in public.

I wonder what his teammates think when he goes fetal?

Glad he didn't throw it up for grabs???

BTW, I've seen Tebow "go fetal" several times this PS. Just another example of if Orton does it it's stupid or weak or he sucks, but if Tebow does it no problem.

errand
09-03-2011, 08:37 AM
Why is it that everyone thinks we have to move orton? What if orton helps us make the playoffs and denver does give him the contract that he is looking for......why not get rid of Tebow?

You guys keep acting as if getting rid of Orton is the only option the team has.........

Agamemnon
09-03-2011, 08:38 AM
Glad he didn't throw it up for grabs???

BTW, I've seen Tebow "go fetal" several times this PS. Just another example of if Orton does it it's stupid or weak or he sucks, but if Tebow does it no problem.

Tebow has flopped over before anyone touched him? What the **** are you smoking?

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 08:40 AM
Glad he didn't throw it up for grabs???

BTW, I've seen Tebow "go fetal" several times this PS. Just another example of if Orton does it it's stupid or weak or he sucks, but if Tebow does it no problem.

Stupid point. What you're failing to recognize is that it's routine for Orton. Tebow doesnt typically look to hit the deck. Not only that but Orton has never played for an OLine thats as bad as what Tebow and Quinn have been playing with this preseason.

Apples and oranges.

Agamemnon
09-03-2011, 08:40 AM
I keep waiting for the negativity about Tebow to actually matchup with his performence in games. I'm still waiting. Apparently actual games don't mean as much as practice.

Same here. People act like he's strung together bad game after bad game when in fact he's yet to have a truly bad game in his short career.

Dedhed
09-03-2011, 08:42 AM
8-8 would be a HUGE improvement over last year. The Broncos don't seem to be in a hurry to extend Orton's contract. That says that he is likely gone, after this season. Give the offensive line a year to gel, and Tebow MAY be scary good, next year. Right now, he seems tentative when the protection breaks down. I don't see the harm in waiting one more year for Tebow, until he figures out the pace of the NFL game...So we miss the playoffs this year with Orton, don't get Tim any reps. Then let's say we go 6-10 with Tebow next year, and he really struggles. We've missed out on 3 great QB prospects in Barkley, Jones, and Luck and are trying to draft the QBOTF in 2013.

Essentially 4 years before we're in the picture.

Start Timnow, on the other hand. Maybe we go 8-8 with him; maybe he's the dynamic leader that he's always been and we go 11-5. We know we have our QBOTF and can draft a DL in round 1.

Or he goes 4-12 and looks awful doing it. We draft Landry Jones at #5 and begin building around him as the franchise guy next year.

Starting Orton and achieving cosmetic improvement only to then launch into the unknown with Tebow is completely asinine, imo.

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 08:42 AM
Why is it that everyone thinks we have to move orton? What if orton helps us make the playoffs and denver does give him the contract that he is looking for......why not get rid of Tebow?

You guys keep acting as if getting rid of Orton is the only option the team has.........

The answer to this was explained in the original post.

errand
09-03-2011, 08:44 AM
That's a strange world to live in where a 130 QB rating is 'abysmal'.

Quinn's rating was under 10, which apparently was excuseable while Tebow's 130 rating was 'abysmal'.

Odd.

1 medium to long pass play that goes for a touchdown can jump a QB's rating by alot.....

Agamemnon
09-03-2011, 08:44 AM
So we miss the playoffs this year with Orton, don't get Tim any reps. Then let's say we go 6-10 with Tebow next year, and he really struggles. We've missed out on 3 great QB prospects in Barkley, Jones, and Luck and are trying to draft the QBOTF in 2013.

Essentially 4 years before we're in the picture.

Start Timnow, on the other hand. Maybe we go 8-8 with him; maybe he's the dynamic leader that he's always been and we go 11-5. We know we have our QBOTF and can draft a DL in round 1.

Or he goes 4-12 and looks awful doing it. We draft Landry Jones at #5 and begin building around him as the franchise guy next year.

Starting Orton and achieving cosmetic improvement only to then launch into the unknown with Tebow is completely asinine, imo.

This has been pointed out over and over, but many simply don't get it. Not sure why. It seems rather obvious to me. But whatever.

Dedhed
09-03-2011, 08:45 AM
Ain't gonna happen, folks. This regime wants to win games; they want to win now. Orton, by far, gives them the best shot at doing that.

The only way they reconsider is if someone offers them huge compensation in a trade. That's not gonna happen either. A third round pick is the best they'd get.
People can keep reiterating this, and it won't make it true. Orton gives them the best chance at an aesthetically pleasing safe offense. Tebow gives them a better chance to be competitive. Just like last year.

montrose
09-03-2011, 08:46 AM
It's the largescale question of playing for today versus playing for tomorrow. Coaches don't want to play for tomorrow - their job depends on Ws. Players dont either, they don't give a rats ass about the Denver Broncos franchise and their hopes of winning a Super Bowl. Players want to get paid and want to get in a position to get paid more. You really think Brandon Lloyd gives a **** if the Broncos have a five-year plan to get back to the Super Bowl? Of course he doesn't, he wants to know whose tossing him the rock so he can get his numbers and get the last payday of his career.

Executives, on the other hand, should be looking at the long-term and that's how Taco is looking at it here. If the Broncos goal is to win a championship at some point, "improving" to 8-8 from 4-12 is not necessarily a great step especially considering the situation the team could be left in at season's end.

While I agree that the trading Orton ship as likely sailed and the team's made their own bed now- I agree with Taco that if you look at the big picture the wiser thing to do would be get value for a guy whose going to walk at the end of the season and garner on-field experience for a young player this administration inherited which will allow the team to make a wiser decision. Again for the long run. You've gotten a pick for Orton and can ut-bait with Tebow at years end if he hasn't progressed or move forward with him if he has. Losing the locker room? Yeah probably, but of all these great vets your worried about pissing off - how many are really going to be around once the Broncos are (presumably) going to be ready to compete for a championship? Not many - so again I would agree with Taco. In fact, I could argue you've already setup a locker room issue in the future because the situation as created an environment in which these veterans have rallied around Orton and if they're not ticked now - they will be in July when they report to camp and Orton's in Miami.

Unfortantly, I think we're past the point of no return. Kyle Orton will be the Broncos QB this season until he gets injured. And then Kyle walks, probably taking Lloyd who'll also be a free agent, with him. And Kyle WILL walk.

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 08:46 AM
Same here. People act like he's strung together bad game after bad game when in fact he's yet to have a truly bad game in his short career.

His career QB rating is over 80, which is quite high for someone who is in his situation and his QB rating is extremely high this preseason in spite of playing with a garbage offensive line. And that doesnt even include what he does running the ball.

Oh but please tell me about how awful he has looked in practice.

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 08:47 AM
1 medium to long pass play that goes for a touchdown can jump a QB's rating by alot.....

LOL

Agamemnon
09-03-2011, 08:48 AM
His career QB rating is over 80, which is quite high for someone who is in his situation and his QB rating is extremely high this preseason in spite of playing with a garbage offensive line. And that doesnt even include what he does running the ball.

Oh but please tell me about how awful he has looked in practice.

Oh and he looks a bit "jittery" and "clueless" out there as he puts up his 100+ passer rating. He clearly isn't ready. ::)

Dedhed
09-03-2011, 08:49 AM
denver does give him the contract that he is looking for.....That's a worse case scenario. It takes far more faith to imagine Orton as a franchise QB than it does to imagine Tebow as the guy.

Agamemnon
09-03-2011, 08:51 AM
LOL

Ignore errand. His mom drank while she was pregnant.

Agamemnon
09-03-2011, 08:52 AM
That's a worse case scenario. It takes far more faith to imagine Orton as a franchise QB than it does to imagine Tebow as the guy.

Not for the mentally handicapped...

Old Dude
09-03-2011, 08:54 AM
I continue to be baffled by people thinking Orton gives us any real chance of winning despite all the evidence to the contrary...

I continue to be baffled as to why people think there's any chance in hell that they'll trade Orton at this stage.

1. They've said, point blank, in the most certain terms possible, that he's the starter. They've also said that the trade is completely off the table.

2. He's gotten the lion's share of all the reps with the first team through the entire preseason. The only game he didn't play was the same game in which none of the starters played and in which Denver had its butt thoroughly kicked.

3. There are no suitors. The only team that showed an interest was Miami, and they've gone in a different direction.

It seems obvious to me that the only reason we're even having this discussion is because Orton is viewed by some fans as being a roadblock to Tebow's playing time. That's because Tebow has been unable to displace Orton on the depth chart. That's because, in the eyes of the coaching staff, who have watched and evaluated them on a daily basis all summer, Orton is the better player.

If you think you know more than the coaching staff, fine. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. But as far as I'm concerned, their opinion carries more weight with me than yours does. And they are the ones who actually make the decisions.

Sorry.

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 08:56 AM
I continue to be baffled as to why people think there's any chance in hell that they'll trade Orton at this stage.

1. They've said, point blank, in the most certain terms possible, that he's the starter. They've also said that the trade is completely off the table.

2. He's gotten the lion's share of all the reps with the first team through the entire preseason. The only game he didn't play was the same game in which none of the starters played and in which Denver had its butt thoroughly kicked.

3. There are no suitors. The only team that showed an interest was Miami, and they've gone in a different direction.

It seems obvious to me that the only reason we're even having this discussion is because Orton is viewed by some fans as being a roadblock to Tebow's playing time. That's because Tebow has been unable to displace Orton on the depth chart. That's because, in the eyes of the coaching staff, who have watched and evaluated them on a daily basis all summer, Orton is the better player.

If you think you know more than the coaching staff, fine. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. But as far as I'm concerned, their opinion carries more weight with me than yours does. And tey are the ones who actually make the decisions.

Sorry.

Was this topic about what they will do or what they should do?

Dedhed
09-03-2011, 08:57 AM
It's the largescale question of playing for today versus playing for tomorrow.

Not if you really look at things. It's more of the question about going with convention over production.

Tebow has shown, for anyone with an ounce of objectivity, that he can be at the very least as effective as Orton, but it's not conventional in the way it looks.

It would be like the Steelers starting Tommy Maddux over Roethlisberger because he was a more polished pocket passer from under center. Instead they accepted an unconventional style and put Ben in the shotgun.

Old Dude
09-03-2011, 08:59 AM
Was this topic about what they will do or what they should do?


Why do you think there's such a huge disconnect between what the coaching staff is doing and what Tebow fans think they should do?

Agamemnon
09-03-2011, 09:02 AM
I continue to be baffled as to why people think there's any chance in hell that they'll trade Orton at this stage.

1. They've said, point blank, in the most certain terms possible, that he's the starter. They've also said that the trade is completely off the table.

2. He's gotten the lion's share of all the reps with the first team through the entire preseason. The only game he didn't play was the same game in which none of the starters played and in which Denver had its butt thoroughly kicked.

3. There are no suitors. The only team that showed an interest was Miami, and they've gone in a different direction.

It seems obvious to me that the only reason we're even having this discussion is because Orton is viewed by some fans as being a roadblock to Tebow's playing time. That's because Tebow has been unable to displace Orton on the depth chart. That's because, in the eyes of the coaching staff, who have watched and evaluated them on a daily basis all summer, Orton is the better player.

If you think you know more than the coaching staff, fine. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. But as far as I'm concerned, their opinion carries more weight with me than yours does. And they are the ones who actually make the decisions.

Sorry.

Err...I was one of the people saying the trade wasn't going to happen...

Dedhed
09-03-2011, 09:03 AM
Why do you think there's such a huge disconnect between what the coaching staff is doing and what Tebow fans think they should do?Convention. We've watched conventional thinking for the last decade in Denver, and it's been a ball of suck.

Agamemnon
09-03-2011, 09:05 AM
Why do you think there's such a huge disconnect between what the coaching staff is doing and what Tebow fans think they should do?

You mean most Broncos fans. It's not just Tebow fans. And the disconnect is that they think the better pocket passer is automatically the better QB. Many of us think otherwise. Elway was a better QB than Marino. He wasn't the better pocket passer. Many Broncos fans know the difference.

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 09:05 AM
Why do you think there's such a huge disconnect between what the coaching staff is doing and what Tebow fans think they should do?

It's not even necessarily about being a Tebow fan. Go read the original post and it will explain how playing Tebow determines if he is the answer long term. Since you've had trouble comprehending this, this would imply some acknowledgement that he may not be the answer long term.

Also, I've already elaborated on the disconnect between what is happening vs. what should happen.

errand
09-03-2011, 09:05 AM
Sounds like you just have an agenda and are unwilling to be budged by what is happening in real life.

The statistics are there for you to see.

The difference between the production of Tebow and Orton in the preseason is marginal.

Could not someone say the same about yourself?

There is more to playing quarterback than just having a high quarterback rating...

Kyle orton goes through his progressions and reads faster and more accurately then tim tebow does..... he is more accurate on the short and intermediate throws than tebow is..... he rarely throws the ball to the wrong man..... and he rarely turns the ball over.

That is why john fox has named kyle orton the starter for the denver broncos....

When tim tebow can do the same things as kyle can, then kyle orton usefulness to us will be the over.... and all of you hero worshippers will have your day in the sun

Dedhed
09-03-2011, 09:13 AM
Kyle orton goes through his progressions and reads faster and more accurately then tim tebow doesAs he did last year when Tebow put up more points
..... he is more accurate on the short and intermediate throws than tebow isAs he was last year when Tebow was more effective
..... he rarely throws the ball to the wrong man..... and he rarely turns the ball over.As he did last year when Tebow gave the team a better chance to win.

That is why john fox has named kyle orton the starter for the denver broncos....Because he's caught up in conventional thinking.

When tim tebow can do the same things as kyle can, then kyle orton usefulness to us will be the over.... And what about when Orton can do the same things that Tebow can do? You're trapped in a "conventional QB" box, which is ironic given that this franchise has only ever reached the top with an unconventional QB.

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 09:13 AM
Could not someone say the same about yourself?

There is more to playing quarterback than just having a high quarterback rating...

Kyle orton goes through his progressions and reads faster and more accurately then tim tebow does..... he is more accurate on the short and intermediate throws than tebow is..... he rarely throws the ball to the wrong man..... and he rarely turns the ball over.

That is why john fox has named kyle orton the starter for the denver broncos....

When tim tebow can do the same things as kyle can, then kyle orton usefulness to us will be the over.... and all of you hero worshippers will have your day in the sun

Actually, this is all another way of saying that Orton has an inflated QB rating because he likes checking down. Unfortunately, Orton's checkdowns does not lead to converting points the way Tebow's combination of reads and running does.

Saying Orton is better at his progressions is just another way of explaining why he's so eager to dump the ball off and fall to the ground at the slightest hint of pressure.

Cito Pelon
09-03-2011, 09:14 AM
Stupid point. What you're failing to recognize is that it's routine for Orton. Tebow doesnt typically look to hit the deck. Not only that but Orton has never played for an OLine thats as bad as what Tebow and Quinn have been playing with this preseason.

Apples and oranges.

Sure, whatever you say . . .

As for all this angst about what a terrible long-term QB situation we have, I don't think it's something to get into a fetal position about. I think Tebow will be fine next year as a starter, adequate at worst. So what's the big deal?

Orton goes in FA, we get a comp pick. They can cut BQ right now for all I care. I think BQ is a nice guy and all, but the NFL is a heartless, ruthless business. We're never getting Hillis back, it was a bad trade, so the angst about "not getting anything" for Hillis if BQ disappears is just something you deal with.

I'm fine with Orton starting this season, Tebow at #2, Weber at #3. Next season let Orton go in FA, start Tebow, and let the chips fall where they may NEXT season. Don't cross your fingers with starting Tebow THIS season and let the chips fall where they may.

So, I don't see a huge problem with our QB situation for the next few years or so. Tebow starting next season will be fine with another refining/polishing season under his belt.

I'm just gonna let it play out and see what happens and not get all worked up about the QB situation. It just doesn't look all that awful to me. But, I realize people love to get all worked up about it, so carry on.

Hogan11
09-03-2011, 09:23 AM
WAAAAAAA!!!! Tebow isn't starting

errand
09-03-2011, 09:24 AM
As he did last year when Tebow put up more points
As he was last year when Tebow was more effective
As he did last year when Tebow gave the team a better chance to win.

Because he's caught up in conventional thinking.

And what about when Orton can do the same things that Tebow can do? You're trapped in a "conventional QB" box, which is ironic given that this franchise has only ever reached the top with an unconventional QB.

Other than running with the football what the hell else can tim tebow do better than Orton?

Can he throw the ball more accurately...
nope

Can he make his reads or go thru his progressions faster? .. nope

Does he protects the football better... that's debatable we know he definitely doesn't protect the ball better in the red zone because he threw an interception in the red zone where kyle orton did not.... so again the question before you is this what does tim tebow do better or as well as kyle orton does other than running with the f****** football?

Hogan11
09-03-2011, 09:25 AM
He's not starting, get over it already.

errand
09-03-2011, 09:27 AM
Actually, this is all another way of saying that Orton has an inflated QB rating because he likes checking down. Unfortunately, Orton's checkdowns does not lead to converting points the way Tebow's combination of reads and running does.

Saying Orton is better at his progressions is just another way of explaining why he's so eager to dump the ball off and fall to the ground at the slightest hint of pressure.

It's no different than you making claims that tim tebow can make things happen when the bottom line is this......he can only run with the football. You guys have just a nicer way of saying he can't read defense ..
.my primary is covered so I'm just gonna run if somebody comes open then I'll chuck it to them

Bronco Vixen
09-03-2011, 09:29 AM
Why do you think there's such a huge disconnect between what the coaching staff is doing and what Tebow fans think they should do?

I suspect it may have something to do with staff trying to save their jobs (and understandably) by choosing the least risky option in the short term (i.e., an 8-8 season with captain mediocrity) that will also show improvement over last year, yet no real long term solution. They're playing checkers not chess with this franchise in the interest if job security. And again, who can fault them, but that doesn't mean it's not frustrating as a fan.

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 09:34 AM
It's no different than you making claims that tim tebow can make things happen when the bottom line is this......he can only run with the football. You guys have just a nicer way of saying he can't read defense ..
.my primary is covered so I'm just gonna run if somebody comes open then I'll chuck it to them

Sorry but the numbers don't support this.

GreatBronco16
09-03-2011, 09:51 AM
It's no different than you making claims that tim tebow can make things happen when the bottom line is this......he can only run with the football. You guys have just a nicer way of saying he can't read defense ..
.my primary is covered so I'm just gonna run if somebody comes open then I'll chuck it to them

I suggest you go back to the TD that Tebow threw against the Cards. Take a nice look at it. You will see him start with the left as read #1, then look at the middle for read #2, then look right for read #3 and throw it there for the TD.

Tebow can make his reads whether you like it or not.

Agamemnon
09-03-2011, 09:54 AM
I suggest you go back to the TD that Tebow threw against the Cards. Take a nice look at it. You will see him start with the left as read #1, then look at the middle for read #2, then look right for read #3 and throw it there for the TD.

Tebow can make his reads whether you like it or not.

You'll also notice he had an actual pocket to throw from. Kind of hard to go through your progressions when you are running for your life.

rbackfactory80
09-03-2011, 10:11 AM
IMO, he should have been gone already.

It is sad that people are so desperate around here they either think Orton is a "good" QB or they are excited to win 7 games.

Inkana7
09-03-2011, 10:16 AM
lol

Dedhed
09-03-2011, 10:34 AM
Other than running with the football what the hell else can tim tebow do better than Orton?
Put points on the board. Period.

What's more important. Going through reads or scoring points?

GreatBronco16
09-03-2011, 10:35 AM
You'll also notice he had an actual pocket to throw from. Kind of hard to go through your progressions when you are running for your life.

Exactly. Tebow has played with 2nd and 3rd stringers through camp, and all of preseason. Our backups have looked like utter crap except for a few, yet, Tebow has still managed to play well.

Does he still take off to run too soon? Yeah I think he does. But that is the part of his game that he is still learning. When he has protection that actually lets him finish his drop and scan the field, his throws have been pretty spot on for the most part. He still needs time.

Now should he be the starter now? No, I don't believe so. It's too late to deem him the starter with what has gone on. The team is behind Orton, so Orton should be starting. Will this change as the season goes on? Probably so.

errand
09-03-2011, 10:39 AM
His career QB rating is over 80, which is quite high for someone who is in his situation and his QB rating is extremely high this preseason in spite of playing with a garbage offensive line. And that doesnt even include what he does running the ball.

Oh but please tell me about how awful he has looked in practice.
Once again you keep failing to realize That while tim tebow played with scrubs he also played against scrubs

errand
09-03-2011, 10:44 AM
Put points on the board. Period.

What's more important. Going through reads or scoring points?

Really? Pray tell how many points has tim tebow put on the board this preseason against the scrubs no less?

errand
09-03-2011, 10:46 AM
IMO, he should have been gone already.

It is sad that people are so desperate around here they either think Orton is a "good" QB or they are excited to win 7 games.

1 could ask you the same thing how excited are you about winning less than 7 games.... with a guy that can't even beat out orton for the starting job

elsid13
09-03-2011, 10:47 AM
I suspect it may have something to do with staff trying to save their jobs (and understandably) by choosing the least risky option in the short term (i.e., an 8-8 season with captain mediocrity) that will also show improvement over last year, yet no real long term solution. They're playing checkers not chess with this franchise in the interest if job security. And again, who can fault them, but that doesn't mean it's not frustrating as a fan.

I would buy that theory if this wasn't the staff first season, but it is and they are clearly here to get things right. People need to face the fact that Tebow isn't ready be a starting NFL QB. He is are Slash right now and should be used as such.

errand
09-03-2011, 10:49 AM
I suggest you go back to the TD that Tebow threw against the Cards. Take a nice look at it. You will see him start with the left as read #1, then look at the middle for read #2, then look right for read #3 and throw it there for the TD.

Tebow can make his reads whether you like it or not.

I'll actually agree with you on that to a point.....
tim did go through his progressions and reads...
however tim doesn't do that on a consistent basis.... kyle orton does

errand
09-03-2011, 10:52 AM
I suggest you go back to the TD that Tebow threw against the Cards. Take a nice look at it. You will see him start with the left as read #1, then look at the middle for read #2, then look right for read #3 and throw it there for the TD.

Tebow can make his reads whether you like it or not.

Did you just tell me that tim tebow played like he was kyle orton? 0h 0k ..you're right it was just 1 play

errand
09-03-2011, 10:54 AM
Ignore errand. His mom drank while she was pregnant.

No...she died giving birth to me a******

elsid13
09-03-2011, 10:55 AM
I suggest you go back to the TD that Tebow threw against the Cards. Take a nice look at it. You will see him start with the left as read #1, then look at the middle for read #2, then look right for read #3 and throw it there for the TD.

Tebow can make his reads whether you like it or not.

Know who else looked really good in 4th preseason game against AZ? Brandstater and were is he now? The 4th preseason game is worthless to use as indicator of success in NFL.

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 10:57 AM
Once again you keep failing to realize That while tim tebow played with scrubs he also played against scrubs

I haven't failed to realize this. I've already acknowledged this. You need to go back to grade school.

Nevertheless, Orton would have done nothing in the same situation. When Orton doesnt have time, he just hits the deck. Thats the kind of player Orton is. Tebow has had to do more on his own because of a garbage offensive line than has Orton this preseason and Tebow still has a better rating than Orton.

errand
09-03-2011, 10:57 AM
You're trapped in a "conventional QB" box, which is ironic given that this franchise has only ever reached the top with an unconventional QB.

Actually we didn't win a frickin title until john played more in the pocket.... but don't take my word for it, john has said that himself

Dr. Broncenstein
09-03-2011, 11:00 AM
I haven't failed to realize this. I've already acknowledged this. You need to go back to grade school.

Nevertheless, Orton would have done nothing in the same situation. When Orton doesnt have time, he just hits the deck. Thats the kind of player Orton is. Tebow has had to do more on his own because of a garbage offensive line than has Orton this preseason and Tebow still has a better rating than Orton.

Additionally, he hits the deck when he does have time.

<iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/18KQ2pBdd_Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

fontaine
09-03-2011, 11:03 AM
Both sides will get what they want.

Orton is not going to stay healthy this season, and Tebow will take over at some point.

Win win for everyone, or more correctly, lose lose for all since both these QBs suck.

errand
09-03-2011, 11:04 AM
I haven't failed to realize this. I've already acknowledged this. You need to go back to grade school.

Nevertheless, Orton would have done nothing in the same situation. When Orton doesnt have time, he just hits the deck. Thats the kind of player Orton is. Tebow has had to do more on his own because of a garbage offensive line than has Orton this preseason and Tebow still has a better rating than Orton.

Well I guess will never know what kyle orton would do with the scrubs because he is the starter

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 11:06 AM
Well I guess will never know what kyle orton would do with the scrubs because he is the starter

Its apparent that there's a lot that you'll never know simply because you're really stupid.

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 11:07 AM
Additionally, he hits the deck when he does have time.

<iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/18KQ2pBdd_Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Disgusting. No guts, no glory, eh Kyle?

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 11:08 AM
Actually we didn't win a frickin title until john played more in the pocket.... but don't take my word for it, john has said that himself

This is another stupid comment from you considering Elway is no longer an option.

Dedhed
09-03-2011, 11:18 AM
Really? Pray tell how many points has tim tebow put on the board this preseason against the scrubs no less?

I don't care much about comparing what Orton did with starters vs what tebow did playing with scrubs.

When Tebow played with the starters he was more effective than Orton.

Dedhed
09-03-2011, 11:24 AM
Actually we didn't win a frickin title until john played more in the pocket.... but don't take my word for it, john has said that himself
But he carried sub par talent to numerous playoff appearances by being unconventional. Those early teams would go 7-9 with a mediocre conventional pocket passer like Orton.

The overall talent level on this team is below nfl average. Which is where we'll finish with Orton.

GreatBronco16
09-03-2011, 11:31 AM
Know who else looked really good in 4th preseason game against AZ? Brandstater and were is he now? The 4th preseason game is worthless to use as indicator of success in NFL.


I wasn't using it as in indicator of success in the NFL. What I posted was to show that Tebow does in fact go through his reads.

Hello McFly.

Cito Pelon
09-03-2011, 11:34 AM
Once again you keep failing to realize That while tim tebow played with scrubs he also played against scrubs

Yeah, that's a difficult point to refute. There's a ton of backup QB's that look dynamite in PS against the other teams backups.

Nevertheless, I think Tebow will be ready to start next season. He has some game to him. He throws a beautiful long ball consistently, has the escapability factor, can throw on the run decently running to either his left or right.

Tebow will be at least adequate in the NFL, I'm comfortable saying that, and probably will be an above-average QB. He just needs one more year of polish on his mechanics and short passing game.

GreatBronco16
09-03-2011, 11:36 AM
I'll actually agree with you on that to a point.....
tim did go through his progressions and reads...
however tim doesn't do that on a consistent basis.... kyle orton does

Tebow does it all the time when that scrub of a 2nd and 3rd team gives him time to do it. Orton goes through his reads more because he is given the time to do so.

Why is this so hard for you to understand?


Tebow was more productive with the first team last year than Orton was.
There is no reason not to believe that Tebow would be more productive with the first team this year either.

oubronco
09-03-2011, 11:48 AM
I don't care much about comparing what Orton did with starters vs what tebow did playing with scrubs.

When Tebow played with the starters he was more effective than Orton.

When was that?

mhgaffney
09-03-2011, 11:50 AM
Oh and he looks a bit "jittery" and "clueless" out there as he puts up his 100+ passer rating. He clearly isn't ready. ::)

Yes -- and the only way to fix this problem is to give Tebow playing time. Sitting on the bench will not make him more ready.

Taco is right.

Dedhed
09-03-2011, 11:54 AM
When was that?

Apparently you weren't here last season.

oubronco
09-03-2011, 11:57 AM
Apparently you weren't here last season.

Apparently you haven't figured out it's not last season

Br0nc0Buster
09-03-2011, 12:05 PM
2011 preseason stats:

Derek Anderson 14/23, 263 yards, 2 TDS 0 INTS, 129 QBR
Luke McCown 12/18, 133 yards, 2TDS O INTs, 125 QBR
Richard Bartel 37/54 530 yards, 5 TDS 2 INTS, 115 QBR
Shaun Hill 22/31, 230 yards, 2 TDS 0 INTS, 113 QBR
Rudy Carpenter 24/42, 388 yards, 2 TDS 0 INTS, 104 QBR

STUDS!!!

Dedhed
09-03-2011, 12:08 PM
Apparently you haven't figured out it's not last season

Apparently you haven't figured out that Orton is the same Kyle Orton that went 3-10 here last year. Same guy.

I understand you're probably still butt-sore over Tebow beating OU for a title, but you should try to get over it. Just like you should try to get over the notion that Orton is going to all of a sudden become something he's never been.

mosca
09-03-2011, 12:23 PM
For every Drew Bledsoe, there's a Rick Mirer... and for every Peyton Manning; a Ryan Leaf. And I'll raise you a JaMarcus Russell. (point is... "being drafted in the 1st round" does not always = "success in the NFL")
Exactly. At this point we need to do what Shanny did in the post-Elway era. Go out and seek a good QB on the free-agent market like he did with Plummer. Someone that has the playmaking abilities to actually lead us to some playoff wins and possibly the Super Bowl.

baja
09-03-2011, 12:34 PM
Above all I would rather watch exciting games so for me put a team on the field that gives me that and I don't care who it is and at this stage of the rebuild I care less about wins and loses than seeing a team play exciting football

Popps
09-03-2011, 12:34 PM
Blueflame ended this thread with her first post. I'm not sure why there would need to be discussion after that.

Bronco Yoda
09-03-2011, 12:46 PM
I believe that if the goal is to win a championship, the best thing this team can do is trade Orton before the trade deadline. Further, I think that not moving him is a huge step backwards (over the long term route to the trophy).

I like Orton, and if the goal is to just get to 8-8 this season, then sure, keep him around. But if we're looking at the long term, he needs to be moved.

1. We're not going to get anything for Brady Quinn. He showed once again vs. Arizona in a game with relatively little pressure that he is not up to being a starting level pro quarterback. He's a backup at best - which is not a bad asset for us to have - a "no threat" asset who can plug a hole if you need him to and allow your starter to feel like he's not got anyone breathing down his neck.

2. Orton isn't coming back next year without a serious offer. Denver fans treat the guy like garbage. The fans want Tebow. Orton is the better pure quarterback on this team by a long shot, and probably gives us the best chance to win the most amount of games this year (I say "probably" because Tebow has the X factor), but winning games with Orton this year does us no good when he walks to any number of AFC teams that are looking for quarterbacks next season.

3. We should not chance losing Adam Weber. We need all the young quarterbacks we can get right now, and next season we're looking at losing both Orton and Quinn to free agency.

The Denver Broncos should:

1) Move Orton as quickly as possible while his value is at its absolute peak (he's got nowhere to go but down from this point each and every week - this team is not deep and it's going to hurt Kyle's value as the season progresses).

2) Keep Brady Quinn as a backup. I hate it, you hate it, but he's got no trade value, and cutting him at this point is a huge waste.

3) Start Tebow and let him sink or swim. With a full season, we'll know whether or not we should be drafting a QB next year in the first round or the third round.

4) Keep Adam Weber on the active Roster as #3 and keep him involved.

5) Draft a QB in the first or the third round of next year depending on how Tebow does. Either way, with Brady on his way out, we'll need someone.

I want to make it clear that this take is not an indictment on Orton. I like the guy. He's a solid guy. But he's not coming back to Denver. You can see it in his interviews. He hates it here. He isn't appreciated. He's got Tebow hovering over his shoulder. I'm pretty sure that Elway isn't going to want to give him a big enough contract to make him want to stick around - and even if he did the fans would hold it against him. I think we all know that the guy is going to be booed in Denver before September is through, and Tebow's name is going to be chanted. It's not fair, but that's life.

Imagine we keep Orton, and cut Quinn... And let's say we go 8-8 with the guy - hell let's say we go 10-6. And then we lose Orton to Free Agency. How are we any better off than if we were to move Orton now?


I told you he most likely wouldn't be back next year and you wanted to bet me otherwise. What changed your mind?

Dedhed
09-03-2011, 12:47 PM
Oh, btw.... the "just like" comparison doesn't work. One of these things is not like the others:

Peyton Manning (starting QB)
Tom Brady (starting QB)
Kyle Orton

Fixed

WolfpackGuy
09-03-2011, 01:00 PM
They all suck.

I don't think I can take another season of watching Orton pee down his leg.

At least with Teboz, there will be some hilarious and entertaining moments.

errand
09-03-2011, 02:09 PM
I don't care much about comparing what Orton did with starters vs what tebow did playing with scrubs.

When Tebow played with the starters he was more effective than Orton.

When did Tebow play with the starters this year?

errand
09-03-2011, 02:16 PM
Apparently you haven't figured out it's not last season

I know right? He must not have heard that we fired our last coach and that we hired john fox........ and that he's the 1 making the decisions now..... and like any coach that takes over a 4-12 team he figures if you can't play on this team you cannot play anywhere.

He's looked the team over ...he's cut dead wood.... and he's gonna play the best 22 players he has

Dedhed
09-03-2011, 02:16 PM
When did Tebow play with the starters this year?

Sigh....

Blueflame
09-03-2011, 03:08 PM
Was post 67 not courteous enough for you? It is the exact quote you just offered after all. So to clarify, orton's teammates supporting him has no similarities to Montana's teammates supporting him and therefore my argument its invalid. Do I finally understand your position?

My position is that nothing that may or may not have happened 15 years ago in San Francisco has any relevance whatsoever to today's Broncos. Similar? Perhaps. Relevant? Not at all.

Taco John
09-03-2011, 03:21 PM
I told you he most likely wouldn't be back next year and you wanted to bet me otherwise. What changed your mind?

Listening to him talk. I originally had this idea that we could offer him an extension and he'd take it. After hearing him talk and considering that even if we did give him an extension, he wouldn't be "the guy" because we'd still draft a quarterback to come up behind him, I can't see a reason for Kyle to want to stick around.

Bronco Yoda
09-03-2011, 04:08 PM
We're on the same page now then. I like Orton as well, but it is what it is and he is what he is. He knows that John is looking for a top QB. I'm betting even Tebow is considering his future option right about now. Quinn better start packing his baggs.

BTW, I just blamed you (this site) for not getting my honey-do list done so far today. I've been putting off the Home Depot trip all day now. You think you you can write me a quick excuse letter and post it pronto. I'm feeling way too lazy to tackling these projects today. :)

Agamemnon
09-03-2011, 06:47 PM
Listening to him talk. I originally had this idea that we could offer him an extension and he'd take it. After hearing him talk and considering that even if we did give him an extension, he wouldn't be "the guy" because we'd still draft a quarterback to come up behind him, I can't see a reason for Kyle to want to stick around.

Poor Orton, thinking he'll ever be "the guy" for any team...

oubronco
09-03-2011, 06:54 PM
Apparently you haven't figured out that Orton is the same Kyle Orton that went 3-10 here last year. Same guy.

I understand you're probably still butt-sore over Tebow beating OU for a title, but you should try to get over it. Just like you should try to get over the notion that Orton is going to all of a sudden become something he's never been.

Maybe just maybe you should get used to Tebow being the backup cause all your crying isn't going to get him the starting gig

He can't beat out Orton who sucks for the starting spot so whats that say about your boy

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 06:55 PM
Maybe just maybe you should get used to Tebow being the backup cause all your crying isn't going to get him the starting gig

He can't beat out Orton who sucks for the starting spot so whats that say about your boy

He beat your Sooners. Get over it!

Bronx33
09-03-2011, 06:59 PM
There is a reason why Taco runs the greatest website on the internet. This guy is a smart man. :~ohyah!:


suck up....:~ohyah!:

oubronco
09-03-2011, 07:02 PM
He beat your Sooners. Get over it!

Been over it for quite awhile and I really don't see why it's so relevant

The fact is Orton is the starter not Tebow so you guys Get over it!

Bronx33
09-03-2011, 07:05 PM
We're on the same page now then. I like Orton as well, but it is what it is and he is what he is. He knows that John is looking for a top QB. I'm betting even Tebow is considering his future option right about now. Quinn better start packing his baggs.

BTW, I just blamed you (this site) for not getting my honey-do list done so far today. I've been putting off the Home Depot trip all day now. You think you you can write me a quick excuse letter and post it pronto. I'm feeling way too lazy to tackling these projects today. :)


Just do the dishes once and fold some laundry and you're golden...

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 07:05 PM
Been over it for quite awhile and I really don't see why it's so relevant

The fact is Orton is the starter not Tebow so you guys Get over it!

Florida won and OU lost. Let it go!

oubronco
09-03-2011, 07:12 PM
Florida won and OU lost. Let it go!

Orton's better than Tebow HAHAHAHAHA

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 07:19 PM
Orton's better than Tebow HAHAHAHAHA

And you said you were over it. Knew you're full of crap. I just want the guy who performs best in actual games. That guy is Orton. You're the one who is all butthurt over a college game.

oubronco
09-03-2011, 07:31 PM
And you said you were over it. Knew you're full of crap. I just want the guy who performs best in actual games. That guy is Orton. You're the one who is all butthurt over a college game.

Well it's pretty simple if Tebow was better he'd be starting

DrFate
09-03-2011, 07:32 PM
Trading Orton would be in the best long-term interest of the franchise - that's likely why they tried to do it before camp.

But no team is going to trade for Orton without an extension, and right now no team is going to meet his outrageous contract demands. (this was conclusively proved before camp)

So - Orton will play this year and the franchise will spin it's wheels yet another year. And this list will be *the* topic for the 2012 Broncos draft

http://walterfootball.com/draft2012QB.php

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 07:39 PM
Well it's pretty simple if Tebow was better he'd be starting

No, you're simple. There's a difference.

oubronco
09-03-2011, 07:45 PM
No, you're simple. There's a difference.

Truth hurts don't it

baja
09-03-2011, 07:47 PM
Here's my wish.
We start Orton he plays lights out wins six of 9 games but at the end of the ninth game he sustains an injury that keeps him out for the rest of the season but it's an injury that with time he recovers 100% and is no threat to re injure. Tebow comes in and struggles like all new QBs do but finds his legs and takes us to the playoffs and wins a game in spectacular fashion. We tag and trade Orton for a kings ransom and Tebow revolutionizes the position, plays for us another 15 seasons and has his number retired right next to John's and we all argue for the next two decades who was better Elway or Tebow.

oubronco
09-03-2011, 07:49 PM
Here's my wish.
We start Orton he plays lights out wins six of 9 games but at the end of the ninth game he sustains an injury that keeps him out for the rest of the season but it's an injury that with time he recovers 100% and is no threat to re injure. Tebow comes in and struggles like all new QBs do but finds his legs and takes us to the playoffs and wins a game in spectacular fashion. We tag and trade Orton for a kings ransom and Tebow revolutionizes the position, plays for us another 15 seasons and has his number retired right next to John's and we all argue for the next two decades who was better Elway or Tebow.

Why do poeple keep saying this? Explain please

Jay3
09-03-2011, 07:49 PM
The lockout messed up the whole situation. With a normal offseason, there would have been time to trade Orton for value (taking time and working things out). Someone like Jake Delhomme could have been brought in as a safety net and mentor. OTA's and everything would have been conducted under a more instructive environment. (Instead of basically a 2 day competition where, big surprise, Orton ran the offense better from the get-go).

Tebow would have done well and surprised his doubters under those conditions -- the guy can play. You just saw a "shaky" preseason from him -- now check his statline. That was "bad Tebow" and it wasn't all that bad at all. He protects the ball and tends to complete passes.

Anyway, can't trade Orton now. No choice but to play it out as a rent-a-back. Let Tebow regress again. Draft another QB next year. Repeat never-ending quarterback drama.

baja
09-03-2011, 07:51 PM
Why do poeple keep saying this? Explain please

Good question strike the phrase and comment on the rest of the scenario.

oubronco
09-03-2011, 07:53 PM
Good question strike the phrase and comment on the rest of the scenario.

That scenario would be a dream come true and would end the "Suck for Luck" thing

baja
09-03-2011, 08:00 PM
That scenario would be a dream come true and would end the "Suck for Luck" thing

The "revolutionize the position" statement to me means Tebow has the smarts to use his running skills to such a high degree that he becomes almost unstoppable. Given time with his athleticism and work ethic think a cross between Payton Manning and John Riggens.

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 08:00 PM
Truth hurts don't it

You tell me. Does it bother you that you're stupid?

Jay3
09-03-2011, 08:09 PM
The "revolutionize the position" statement to me means Tebow has the smarts to use his running skills to such a high degree that he becomes almost unstoppable. Given time with his athleticism and work ethic think a cross between Payton Manning and John Riggens.

His running style, size, and power makes him a genuine, hard to stop threat to pick up 3rd and 4 even you plan for it. It throws off all the math in the box if he lines up in shotgun on 3rd and 4 (or less). He's got Lance Armstrong level aerobic ability to keep coming like the Terminator. It's not that he can run it 20 times. But he can run it 6 to 8 times in all the key moments of the games.

There's never been a "running quarterback" with that Allstot kind of first down ability. They've always been fleet-feet, threats to take it outside.

(Or at least that's how the theory goes).

Cito Pelon
09-03-2011, 08:11 PM
The lockout messed up the whole situation. With a normal offseason, there would have been time to trade Orton for value (taking time and working things out). Someone like Jake Delhomme could have been brought in as a safety net and mentor. OTA's and everything would have been conducted under a more instructive environment. (Instead of basically a 2 day competition where, big surprise, Orton ran the offense better from the get-go).

Tebow would have done well and surprised his doubters under those conditions -- the guy can play. You just saw a "shaky" preseason from him -- now check his statline. That was "bad Tebow" and it wasn't all that bad at all. He protects the ball and tends to complete passes.

Anyway, can't trade Orton now. No choice but to play it out as a rent-a-back. Let Tebow regress again. Draft another QB next year. Repeat never-ending quarterback drama.

Hilarious! Don't get all maudlin and dramatic like it's the end of the Denver Broncos football world. LMAO LOL

oubronco
09-03-2011, 08:14 PM
The "revolutionize the position" statement to me means Tebow has the smarts to use his running skills to such a high degree that he becomes almost unstoppable. Given time with his athleticism and work ethic think a cross between Payton Manning and John Riggens.

There have numerous running QB's I just don't get why Tebow would "Revelutionize" the position when he's just another running QB

oubronco
09-03-2011, 08:15 PM
You tell me. Does it bother you that you're stupid?

Go away

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 08:20 PM
Go away

You answered your own question. The truth does hurt.

Cito Pelon
09-03-2011, 08:28 PM
Why do poeple keep saying this? Explain please

Tebow doesn't revolutionize anything. He'll probably be a good QB IMO in the NFL, but yeah, "revolutionary" is pretty much ridiculous .

Jay3
09-03-2011, 08:28 PM
Hilarious! Don't get all maudlin and dramatic like it's the end of the Denver Broncos football world. LMAO LOL

It's not maudlin or dramatic. You're posting in a thread that is based on the idea that the best bet for the Broncos would be to trade Orton. Go ahead and jump in if you disagree.

I don't think they can or should trade him now, but my point is this is not an ideal situation. The only ones who seem to like it are the ones secretly nursing the hope that Orton blows up big, gets resigned to a long term franchise deal, and we all look back on this time as "that time we almost failed to appreciate that Orton is a juggernaut."

oubronco
09-03-2011, 08:29 PM
You answered your own question. The truth does hurt.

1 more time Tebow can't beat out Orton who sucks for the starting job

now that truth does hurt

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 08:42 PM
1 more time Tebow can't beat out Orton who sucks for the starting job

now that truth does hurt

Thats not the truth. The truth is that you're stupid. You speak out of ignorance.

GreatBronco16
09-03-2011, 08:49 PM
1 more time Tebow can't beat out Orton who sucks for the starting job

now that truth does hurt

OMG, he hasn't even been given a fair chance to compete for that job. He ran with the starting unit in practice what one time? And that was only because Orton had to leave practice. Make any excuse you want, but you know the closest he came to having a chance of beating out Orton this year, was when Orton was a contract away from being traded.

GreatBronco16
09-03-2011, 08:51 PM
And before the stupid responses come rolling in, I'll say it again.

Does this mean that Tebow should start NOW? Hell no. The team was setup around Orton to be the starter this year, so he should start.

baja
09-03-2011, 08:54 PM
There have numerous running QB's I just don't get why Tebow would "Revolutionize" the position when he's just another running QB

Leadership + football mind + winner + iron will + desire + work ethic + IT = RARE TALENT that will out think and out play everyone add in raising the level of teammates game and you got a combination that can change the game that is what McD saw in him. That is what I see in him. Question is will the Broncos see it and let it flow.

GreatBronco16
09-03-2011, 08:55 PM
Leadership + football mind + winner + iron will + desire + work ethic + IT = RARE TALENT that will out think and out play everyone add in raising the level of teammates game and you got a combination that can change the game that is what McD saw in him. That is what I see in him. Question is will the Broncos see it and let it flow.

That doesn't = Revonlutionize

oubronco
09-03-2011, 08:57 PM
Leadership + football mind + winner + iron will + desire + work ethic + IT = RARE TALENT that will out think and out play everyone add in raising the level of teammates game and you got a combination that can change the game that is what McD saw in him. That is what I see in him. Question is will the Broncos see it and let it flow.

At this point in time the Denver Broncos see a backup QB in him

baja
09-03-2011, 08:57 PM
That doesn't = Revonlutionize

Did Payton revolutionize the position? Coach on the field and all that....

baja
09-03-2011, 08:58 PM
At this point in time the Denver Broncos see a backup QB in him


Well that is what he is "at this time".

oubronco
09-03-2011, 08:58 PM
Did Payton revolutionize the position? Coach on the field and all that....

Was he any more Revelutionizing than Montana

oubronco
09-03-2011, 09:00 PM
Well that is what he is "at this time".

Exactly. Until he proves it to the Coach and all that's all he'll be

baja
09-03-2011, 09:00 PM
Was he any more Revelutionizing than Montana

Yes

baja
09-03-2011, 09:00 PM
Bill Walsh made Montana

GreatBronco16
09-03-2011, 09:00 PM
Did Payton revolutionize the position? Coach on the field and all that....

LOL, no.

baja
09-03-2011, 09:01 PM
Exactly. Until he proves it to the Coach and all that's all he'll be
This is why he is controversial .

oubronco
09-03-2011, 09:04 PM
This is why he is controversial .

If Tebow wants to start he's going to have to get his shyt together and prove he's better to the coaches and that's that

All the posters on this site who think they know more than the coaches are just going to have to deal with it and face the facts they don't know more than the poeple running the Denver Broncos

baja
09-03-2011, 09:05 PM
LOL, no.

He beats you with his mind, changes almost every play at the LOC. He is the OC on the field. How many games to the Colts win without him? That's revolutionary.

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 09:06 PM
At this point in time the Denver Broncos see a backup QB in him

Fox is trying to appease factions in the locker room. The decision wasnt even made on the basis of what has happened in the preseason.

baja
09-03-2011, 09:06 PM
If Tebow wants to start he's going to have to get his shyt together and prove he's better to the coaches and that's that

All the posters on this site who think they know more than the coaches are just going to have to deal with it and face the facts they don't know more than the poeple running the Denver Broncos

I agree. I'm talking potential, off the charts potential....

oubronco
09-03-2011, 09:06 PM
Fox is trying to appease factions in the locker room. The decision wasnt even made on the basis of what has happened in the preseason.

In your eyes but not the poeple who run the Denver Broncos

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 09:07 PM
In your eyes but not the poeple who run the Denver Broncos

You know this based on what...because you're a dumbf*ck that takes everything at face value?

GreatBronco16
09-03-2011, 09:07 PM
If Tebow wants to start he's going to have to get his shyt together and prove he's better to the coaches and that's that

All the posters on this site who think they know more than the coaches are just going to have to deal with it and face the facts they don't know more than the poeple running the Denver Broncos

Do you really think that is the reason that Orton is the starter? Just because you think the coaches are playing who they think won the battle for the QB spot? Tell me you don't believe that.

He was only with the starting unit as soon as the lockout lifted, and no matter how good or bad Tebow played was going to change that. Unless Orton just completely blew it, he was going to start regardless.

oubronco
09-03-2011, 09:08 PM
I agree. I'm talking potential, off the charts potential....

Most 1-2 yr guys have alot of potential but not as many prove it on an NFL field but I sure do hope Tebow does and lights it up

oubronco
09-03-2011, 09:11 PM
You know this based on what...because you're a dumb**** that takes everything at face value?

Seriously?

First off if the Broncos brass thought Tebow was better he would be starting don't you think

And i could care less what you think of me :wave:

oubronco
09-03-2011, 09:12 PM
Do you really think that is the reason that Orton is the starter? Just because you think the coaches are playing who they think won the battle for the QB spot? Tell me you don't believe that.

He was only with the starting unit as soon as the lockout lifted, and no matter how good or bad Tebow played was going to change that. Unless Orton just completely blew it, he was going to start regardless.

Spin it however you want as much as Orton sucks or not he "IS" the starter

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 09:13 PM
Seriously?

First off if the Broncos brass thought Tebow was better he would be starting don't you think

And i could care less what you think of me :wave:

See. Dumbass. You're one of the dumbest posters around...which is quite an accomplishment. Congratulations.

oubronco
09-03-2011, 09:14 PM
See. Dumbass. You're one of the dumbest posters around...which is quite an accomplishment. Congratulations.

Pot meet Kettle........... your pushing MacGruder potential

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 09:16 PM
Pot meet Kettle........... your pushing MacGruder potential

No, it's not pot/kettle. You obviously don't know what that means. Stop performing an abortion on the English language, you dumb****.

oubronco
09-03-2011, 09:17 PM
No, it's not pot/kettle. You obviously don't know what that means. Stop performing an abortion on the English language, you dumb****.

if you were standing in front of me you would be picking your ass up off the floor punk

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 09:21 PM
if you were standing in front of me you would be picking your ass up off the floor punk

Too funny.

oubronco
09-03-2011, 09:21 PM
Too funny.

Fact

GreatBronco16
09-03-2011, 10:27 PM
Spin it however you want as much as Orton sucks or not he "IS" the starter

Whether or not he IS the starter wasn't the argument.

MagicHef
09-03-2011, 10:40 PM
Well, in an attempt to return to the topic of the thread, I am hopeful that winning will improve some of the mindsets around the team. Perhaps Orton would sign an extension if we're above .500 in the middle of the season. Winning changes everything.

OrangeSe7en
09-03-2011, 10:46 PM
Well, in an attempt to return to the topic of the thread, I am hopeful that winning will improve some of the mindsets around the team. Perhaps Orton would sign an extension if we're above .500 in the middle of the season. Winning changes everything.

Going 9-7 wouldnt mean they should automatically sign Orton for the money he wants. If they're 9-7 and Orton isn't a major reason for it, then no way should he get a big contract. If Orton is what he's been for the majority of his career, no way should he get a big contract.

The Broncos shouldnt start acting stupid just because the team has a winning record.

MagicHef
09-03-2011, 10:57 PM
Going 9-7 wouldnt mean they should automatically sign Orton for the money he wants. If they're 9-7 and Orton isn't a major reason for it, then no way should he get a big contract. If Orton is what he's been for the majority of his career, no way should he get a big contract.

The Broncos shouldnt start acting stupid just because the team has a winning record.

I should have been more clear. I'm talking about Orton changing his mind (about whether he wants to extend for the money the Broncos are offering), not the FO.

cutthemdown
09-03-2011, 11:10 PM
Last yr I knew the Broncos would stink. I couldn't find any spots outside of CB where a player had the potential to dominate the guy in front of them. It was a bunch of break even matchups and some where we outright got dominated in every match up.

This yr we have a rookie safety that could be able to do some things, Doom back who can dominate, Von Miller looks the part, still have Bailey and Dawkins, we have some tools this yr on defense to be much better.

Archer81
09-04-2011, 12:23 AM
This thread took a bit of an odd turn, didnt it.


:Broncos:

Blart
09-04-2011, 12:48 AM
Tebow = Luck, so I agree.

GreatBronco16
09-04-2011, 09:26 AM
He beats you with his mind, changes almost every play at the LOC. He is the OC on the field. How many games to the Colts win without him? That's revolutionary.

Just because he is probably the smartest QB to play the game doesn't mean he revolutionized the position.

And you take the star QB out of most teams and plug in their no name backup, and they will lose a lot more games. That's common sense, not revolutionary.

baja
09-04-2011, 10:26 AM
Just because he is probably the smartest QB to play the game doesn't mean he revolutionized the position.

And you take the star QB out of most teams and plug in their no name backup, and they will lose a lot more games. That's common sense, not revolutionary.

Manning changes the play at the LOC AFTER he sees the defense. He does this almost every play. Nobody does this to the extent that Manning does. You don't think that is revolutionary, fine that's your prorogative. None the less it is revolutionary because it changed the way the position is played.

I believe Tebow has a unique set of skills to make a simular level of impact on the position.


Would you feel better if I toned it down and said alter the way the position is played?

Jay3
09-04-2011, 10:41 AM
Last yr I knew the Broncos would stink. I couldn't find any spots outside of CB where a player had the potential to dominate the guy in front of them. It was a bunch of break even matchups and some where we outright got dominated in every match up.

This yr we have a rookie safety that could be able to do some things, Doom back who can dominate, Von Miller looks the part, still have Bailey and Dawkins, we have some tools this yr on defense to be much better.

Plus Lloyd has revealed himself to be almost impossible to single cover.

vancejohnson82
09-04-2011, 10:47 AM
good thread


no really....good thread

GreatBronco16
09-04-2011, 11:30 AM
Manning changes the play at the LOC AFTER he sees the defense. He does this almost every play. Nobody does this to the extent that Manning does. You don't think that is revolutionary, fine that's your prorogative. None the less it is revolutionary because it changed the way the position is played.

I believe Tebow has a unique set of skills to make a simular level of impact on the position.


Would you feel better if I toned it down and said alter the way the position is played?


It's called audiables. Every QB has them. Do they do it the way Manning does it? Well no, no other coaches give their players that kind power on the field.

Manning hasn't revolutionized anything other than, he can change the play more at the LOS than all the other QBs. Being the smartest QB doesn't equal revolutionary.

Dedhed
09-04-2011, 11:32 AM
Fact

OOO..look out, internet tough guy alert. Internet tough guy alert. lulz

Dedhed
09-04-2011, 11:34 AM
Manning changes the play at the LOC AFTER he sees the defense. He does this almost every play. Nobody does this to the extent that Manning does. You don't think that is revolutionary, fine that's your prorogative. None the less it is revolutionary because it changed the way the position is played.

I believe Tebow has a unique set of skills to make a simular level of impact on the position.


Would you feel better if I toned it down and said alter the way the position is played?

I think it's a better statement to say that Peyton is unique at what he does at the positionm and that Tebow can also be unique in what he does at the position.

bendog
09-04-2011, 01:29 PM
Thing is, Tebow isn't unique.

DrFate
09-04-2011, 01:49 PM
Cut all three and just direct snap to Moreno.

#singlewing

baja
09-04-2011, 01:52 PM
Thing is, Tebow isn't unique.

He does have a rather unique collection of attributes.

You don't think the guy considered by many the greatest college player of all time should be considered unique.

What qualifies as unique in your opinion.

If he wasn't unique we would not have 70 threads about him.