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View Full Version : So how about Knowshon?


montrose
08-28-2011, 09:55 AM
He's finally healthy, back to his playing weight from college and playing behind what looks like a competent OL. I'm seeing a guy who can hit the edge, isn't slipping, makes guys miss, is great catching the ball and- most importantly- is squeezing out extra yards when they're not there. Does Knowshon look like the guy that was a consensus mid-1st round pick in 2009 or does he still look like an underachiever?

OrangeSe7en
08-28-2011, 09:59 AM
He looks like a waste of a draft pick. Im glad he looks better but Im still not seeing #12.

NFLBRONCO
08-28-2011, 10:06 AM
Better nice kid etc worth the 12th pick hell no. He still sucks at 3rd and short. He should switch to TE he does catch the ball very well.

Cito Pelon
08-28-2011, 10:15 AM
He's finally healthy, back to his playing weight from college and playing behind what looks like a competent OL. I'm seeing a guy who can hit the edge, isn't slipping, makes guys miss, is great catching the ball and- most importantly- is squeezing out extra yards when they're not there. Does Knowshon look like the guy that was a consensus mid-1st round pick in 2009 or does he still look like an undetachiever?

He's the same solid producer he's always been.

Steve Sewell
08-28-2011, 10:17 AM
He's going to put up some big numbers in the passing game this year, I know that.

I think he'll put up ~900-1000 yards rushing and probably ~700-800 receiving yards this year. 10 TDs or so.

montrose
08-28-2011, 10:18 AM
Better nice kid etc worth the 12th pick hell no. He still sucks at 3rd and short

That's fair, although I dont know if he was ever thought of as a short yardage back. I'm not sure if his skillset ever added up to being a mid 1st rounder and we all would've preferred Orakpo or Matthews but in fairness he wasnt a reach by definition-mid 1st was his projection in a weak draft. Regardless of that, I'm just glad he finally looks like the guy I saw for UGA.

Broncoman13
08-28-2011, 10:19 AM
I think he looks a lot better so far. The lower weight doesn't seem to take anything away from his game... Actually looks like he has better balance. And most importantly, he looks fresh and able to sustain a drive. I would like to see him want to stay on the field more.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
08-28-2011, 10:21 AM
The trimmed-down knowshon looks a LOT more like the guy we thought we were getting from UGA, that's for sure. More burst, and he almost seems slippery.

I thought when he came into the organization, he sort of plodded, running heavy-footed like Robert Smith of the Vikings. The thing I noticed last night was that he didn't seem like each step was a stomp, and it's helping his quickness to and through the hole significantly.

Worth the #12 pick? Hmm, probably not. But I've never thought of him as a "bust" either. It'll be interesting to see if he can keep that burst and slipperyness, as well as stay healthy, without the extra weight.

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 10:24 AM
Definitely looking much improved. And he was better than most gave him credit for anyway. There really are no words for how bad McD's run scheme is.

CEH
08-28-2011, 10:25 AM
I heard the team wants him to add some more weight. They think he lost too many LBs. He's better than he was last year and I know Knowshown didn't draft himself at #12 but defense was the way to go. Then again I think Leon Washington looked good last night as well and provides the same skill set plus ST

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 10:27 AM
I heard the team wants him to add some more weight. They think he lost too many LBs. He's better than he was last year and I know Knowshown didn't draft himself at #12 but defense was the way to go. Then again I think Leon Washington looked good last night as well and provides the same skill set plus ST

You heard from who? That would be so ****ing stupid if true. The guy is clearly better at his current weight and we have McGahee to pound it when needed.

gyldenlove
08-28-2011, 10:32 AM
That's fair, although I dont know if he was ever thought of as a short yardage back. I'm not sure if his skillset ever added up to being a mid 1st rounder and we all would've preferred Orakpo or Matthews but in fairness he wasnt a reach by definition-mid 1st was his projection in a weak draft. Regardless of that, I'm just glad he finally looks like the guy I saw for UGA.

I am not sure he will ever truly be a workhorse running back, but he looks very much like a poor mans Chris Johnson or Warrick Dunn, someone who can keep up a very good per run average on 1st and 2nd down and who can make things happen with the football, but not the grinder who gets the last yard in a 3rd and 1 situation.

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 10:36 AM
I am not sure he will ever truly be a workhorse running back, but he looks very much like a poor mans Chris Johnson or Warrick Dunn, someone who can keep up a very good per run average on 1st and 2nd down and who can make things happen with the football, but not the grinder who gets the last yard in a 3rd and 1 situation.

Moreno is actually much better in 3rd and short and redzone situations than people give him credit for. It's not his specialty, but I think peoples' perceptions are a bit warped based off the abysmal interior blocking he had his two years under McD.

Beantown Bronco
08-28-2011, 10:47 AM
I love how people continuously say he wasn't worth the #12 pick. Looking back on the Broncos drafts for the past 10 years, I have a real hard time naming more than MAYBE two guys that we've drafted in the first that have performed as well or better than him.

Drek
08-28-2011, 10:48 AM
He's been one of our best players each of the past two seasons and has worked in a broken scheme for RBs behind a patchwork OL for his rookie year and then a very young OL with what little vet experience on the rebound from injuries. I'd say he's been producing as well as could be expected given the situation.

He looks very good now though. His stamina is clearly up, he's even more elusive, and so far he seems to be showing superior durability (knock on wood).

He's clearly our best back right now and is also our second best skill position player on offense behind Lloyd. I look forward to seeing him work with an offense that isn't so vanilla come the regular season. If McCoy can keep the passing game at the same rate of production McDaniels had it at while also adding in Moreno and McGahee behind a more competent OL we could see a significant offensive improvement.

Big question for Moreno is if everyone will go right back to labeling an every game starter with >1K all purpose yards his first two years despite injury issues a bust the second we have a bad running day in the regular season. I'm assuming they will.

Pony Boy
08-28-2011, 10:52 AM
He's no Hillis but he's starting to look like a solid 4th round pick .......

Popps
08-28-2011, 10:59 AM
Knowshon isn't improved... he's actually got running lanes.

This "dancing" he supposedly does was 100% the result of awful run-blocking most of last season. (Note that later in the season when we made the O-line changes, he magically played much better.)

He's a very valuable part of the offense. Was he worth a #12 pick? Who cares. That's for people with no life to sit and ponder for all eternity. Half of 1st round picks don't live up to expectations.

Bottom line is, he's a talented back and will be very effective for us when the line is doing their job to any reasonable degree.

The real question with him is his ability to stay on the field and not get dinged. The addition of WM should help in that regard.

epicSocialism4tw
08-28-2011, 11:01 AM
I still have yet to see him break a big run.

Quoydogs
08-28-2011, 11:08 AM
I've been pretty hard on him over the past years and it was well deserved. I will admit the last 3 or 4 games last year and then this preseason he seems to have a chip on his shoulder and playing with a I can do this **** attitude.

I think he has turned the corner and we are going to see a very big year from him. So far what I have seen from most everybody this year could end up shocking a lot of people and I also think we have a good shot at taking the west.

Cito Pelon
08-28-2011, 11:09 AM
I like Moreno, but he does leave some yards on the field at times. He's not a mature runner yet. He puts his head down and gets focused sometimes on where the hole is supposed to be and ignores some lanes. He's a good back, but he needs a little polish.

cutthemdown
08-28-2011, 11:13 AM
I still think he goes down really easy. Look for Magahee to get all the short yardage goaline work.

vonqkilla
08-28-2011, 11:14 AM
If he can stay on his feet, mind works faster than body.

Steve Prefontaine
08-28-2011, 11:15 AM
I love how people continuously say he wasn't worth the #12 pick. Looking back on the Broncos drafts for the past 10 years, I have a real hard time naming more than MAYBE two guys that we've drafted in the first that have performed as well or better than him.
1. I commend you for mustering up the courage to do that.
2. It's not exactly the gold standard.

Inkana7
08-28-2011, 11:26 AM
He'll be the heavy-lifter of what'll be a pretty good rushing attack and one of our best receiving targets. You really can't be upset with that at all.

Mogulseeker
08-28-2011, 11:33 AM
Better nice kid etc worth the 12th pick hell no. He still sucks at 3rd and short. He should switch to TE he does catch the ball very well.

The hell with punctuation!

enjolras
08-28-2011, 11:33 AM
My god. The kid worked hard in the off season and the results clearly show. He's incredibly improved and is going to be a huge part of this offense. He's averaging 4.5'ish a carry for the last two games (McGahee, incidentally is FAR below that).

Anyone watching objectively goes "that's a pretty good back".

DBroncos4life
08-28-2011, 11:36 AM
My god. The kid worked hard in the off season and the results clearly show. He's incredibly improved and is going to be a huge part of this offense. He's averaging 4.5'ish a carry for the last two games (McGahee, incidentally is FAR below that).

Anyone watching objectively goes "that's a pretty good back".

McGahee's avg takes a hit with those one to two yard TDs runs.

Moreno does look improve and the two backs should work well together.

Play2win
08-28-2011, 11:38 AM
He looks like twice the back he was last year. Our D looks like twice the D it was last year. Two of our major weaknesses from last year already look a heck of a lot better this year.

Gort
08-28-2011, 11:49 AM
Definitely looking much improved. And he was better than most gave him credit for anyway. There really are no words for how bad McD's run scheme is.

Knowshon's number should never, ever, under any circumstance, be called on a play designed to be run between the tackles.

halfback passes and sweeps are his strong suit.

Steve Prefontaine
08-28-2011, 11:53 AM
To me the jury is still out on Knowshon. While he looks good this preseason, I'm curious to see how he holds up for season at the lower weight.

I do like the combination of him and McGahee much better than any other combo the last couple of years.

OrangeSe7en
08-28-2011, 11:55 AM
He'll be the heavy-lifter of what'll be a pretty good rushing attack and one of our best receiving targets. You really can't be upset with that at all.

Yeah, but he's definitely upgradeable and they should look to upgrade at RB next draft.

Inkana7
08-28-2011, 11:57 AM
Yeah, but he's definitely upgradeable and they should look to upgrade at RB next draft.

I mean, yeah, if they are running a "waste draft picks" strategy.

Bronco Yoda
08-28-2011, 11:58 AM
He looks good so far. I'm pulling for him. Just hope he can stay on the field at this weight. He's giving 110% that's for sure.

Gort
08-28-2011, 11:59 AM
I still have yet to see him break a big run.

it's been 5 or 6 years since we last had a RB take a hand off and bust through the line for a 50+ yard touchdown. i miss those.

i think the last one of those was by Tatum Bell in 2005.

OrangeSe7en
08-28-2011, 11:59 AM
I mean, yeah, if they are running a "waste draft picks" strategy.

It wouldnt be because of that.

epicSocialism4tw
08-28-2011, 12:03 PM
it's been 5 or 6 years since we last had a RB take a hand off and bust through the line for a 50+ yard touchdown. i miss those.

i think the last one of those was by Tatum Bell in 2005.

Knowshon doesn't hit the hole with purpose enough to get by the second level. At least thats been his MO thus far. I hope that he can change that, but I'm not confident in it.

Inkana7
08-28-2011, 12:05 PM
Knowshon doesn't hit the hole with purpose enough to get by the second level. At least thats been his MO thus far. I hope that he can change that, but I'm not confident in it.

lulz, like he's had holes the past 2 years.

epicSocialism4tw
08-28-2011, 12:09 PM
lulz, like he's had holes the past 2 years.

Um...you don't ignore 2 years worth of tape for the sake of hopeychange. A person would be nuts to believe that in 2 years Moreno didn't have a single lane to rush through.

I hope that he changes. I would love to see the Broncos have a solid feature back who gets his job done. But I'm no faithhopeychange type waiting for magic fairy dust to alter the course of history.

montrose
08-28-2011, 12:21 PM
I love how people continuously say he wasn't worth the #12 pick. Looking back on the Broncos drafts for the past 10 years, I have a real hard time naming more than MAYBE two guys that we've drafted in the first that have performed as well or better than him.

2010 - Demaryius Thomas, Tim Tebow
2009 - Knowshon Moreno, Robert Ayers
2008 - Ryan Clady
2007 - Jarvis Moss
2006 - Jay Cutler
2005 - None
2004 - DJ Williams
2003 - George Foster
2002 - Ashley Lelie
2001 - Willie Middlebrooks
2000 - Deltha O'Neal

Shoemaker
08-28-2011, 12:38 PM
Um...you don't ignore 2 years worth of tape for the sake of hopeychange. A person would be nuts to believe that in 2 years Moreno didn't have a single lane to rush through.

I hope that he changes. I would love to see the Broncos have a solid feature back who gets his job done. But I'm no faithhopeychange type waiting for magic fairy dust to alter the course of history.

I didn't see him mention "fairy dust" at all in his post, funnily enough.

Moreno's run blocking during his two seasons here has been average at best and downright awful more often than not. It certainly hasn't been good enough to open holes consistently for him, which is why he was hit in the backfield so often last year. I've seen him dance too much occasionally, but given how many times his dancing resulted in him avoiding getting tackled behind the LOS last season, I think it's forgivable. And I can definitely remember him hitting some lanes with authority; I don't think you rush for ~160 yards in a game by dancing around in the backfield.

Despite the lack of standout numbers, Moreno impressed me last year simply due to his ability to make something out of absolutely nothing. (For comparison, see what Lance Ball, Correll Buckhalter, and Lawrence Maroney were able to do behind the same line-not much at all).

It's hardly "hopeychange" or whatever the hell you're talking about to believe that Moreno could be an above-average to excellent back with some actual quality run blocking in front of him for the first time in his career. It's a perfectly reasonable hypothesis based on empirical evidence; he showed it in that Chiefs game last year, for crying out loud.

Broncoman13
08-28-2011, 01:01 PM
So Jermichael Finley from Oregon or Richardson from Alabama next year? I think we are going to win enough games to push us out of the QB sweepstakes. Luck, Landry Jones, and Barkley will likely all be gone... But the top RBs will be there.

Richardson looks to be a beast... Comps to AD already.

Inkana7
08-28-2011, 01:02 PM
So Jermichael Finley from Oregon or Richardson from Alabama next year? I think we are going to win enough games to push us out of the QB sweepstakes. Luck, Landry Jones, and Barkley will likely all be gone... But the top RBs will be there.

Richardson looks to be a beast... Comps to AD already.

Idk how bout some Dlinemen?

KipCorrington25
08-28-2011, 01:04 PM
I've ripped on this guy from day one but I have to admit he looks better, more flash, more quicks, still not a home run hitter but is at least avoiding tacklers a little more and not running straight into them.

razorwire77
08-28-2011, 01:14 PM
I think he's a pretty decent complimentary type back. He'll run hard and get you an 8-15 yard run sometimes. He'll create match up problems in the passing game in one-on-one situations with LB's/SS/FS. He's an excellent receiver and runs really solid routes for a RB.

He's not going to be an elite back though. He's not going to take a team and punish them over the course of the game with 25 carries (AP, Jones-Drew etc.). He's not explosive enough to take it to the house (Charles, Chris Johnson etc.)

I think he's a solid player, even a potential 1000 yard player, but to me, when you draft a back in the top 15 he should be an elite play maker.

bombay
08-28-2011, 01:17 PM
I think he took a good look his career in the off-season, and decided to do everything within his power to not let a great opportunity slip away.

He looks very good.

epicSocialism4tw
08-28-2011, 01:23 PM
I didn't see him mention "fairy dust" at all in his post, funnily enough.

Moreno's run blocking during his two seasons here has been average at best and downright awful more often than not. It certainly hasn't been good enough to open holes consistently for him, which is why he was hit in the backfield so often last year. I've seen him dance too much occasionally, but given how many times his dancing resulted in him avoiding getting tackled behind the LOS last season, I think it's forgivable. And I can definitely remember him hitting some lanes with authority; I don't think you rush for ~160 yards in a game by dancing around in the backfield.

Despite the lack of standout numbers, Moreno impressed me last year simply due to his ability to make something out of absolutely nothing. (For comparison, see what Lance Ball, Correll Buckhalter, and Lawrence Maroney were able to do behind the same line-not much at all).

It's hardly "hopeychange" or whatever the hell you're talking about to believe that Moreno could be an above-average to excellent back with some actual quality run blocking in front of him for the first time in his career. It's a perfectly reasonable hypothesis based on empirical evidence; he showed it in that Chiefs game last year, for crying out loud.

Quentin Griffin and Tatum Bell both had 160 yard games.

Lestat
08-28-2011, 01:25 PM
for him to justify the #12 pick in most fans eyes he's going to have to start putting up 1,300 yards on the ground & 500 receiving. he was supposed to be a potentially elite back in his draft class.
in Denver that means TD & Portis type numbers or better and being picked that high means he better reach them.

dbfan21
08-28-2011, 01:31 PM
He's been one of our best players each of the past two seasons and has worked in a broken scheme for RBs behind a patchwork OL for his rookie year and then a very young OL with what little vet experience on the rebound from injuries. I'd say he's been producing as well as could be expected given the situation.

He looks very good now though. His stamina is clearly up, he's even more elusive, and so far he seems to be showing superior durability (knock on wood).

He's clearly our best back right now and is also our second best skill position player on offense behind Lloyd. I look forward to seeing him work with an offense that isn't so vanilla come the regular season. If McCoy can keep the passing game at the same rate of production McDaniels had it at while also adding in Moreno and McGahee behind a more competent OL we could see a significant offensive improvement.

Big question for Moreno is if everyone will go right back to labeling an every game starter with >1K all purpose yards his first two years despite injury issues a bust the second we have a bad running day in the regular season. I'm assuming they will.

This is the biggest difference I have seen this pre-season. He's not taking himself out of the game after a 12-yard run. The weight he dropped has been a huge part of this improvement in his game.

srphoenix
08-28-2011, 02:02 PM
I've always been a fan of Knowshon and I agree with some on here saying that it was mostly line play that was making him look sub par at times. Even with an awful line he's still the best running back by good measure from that draft class. He may never be the all around rockstar like Terrell Davis was but he's definitely good.

oubronco
08-28-2011, 02:31 PM
I'd start McGahee

Drek
08-28-2011, 02:45 PM
for him to justify the #12 pick in most fans eyes he's going to have to start putting up 1,300 yards on the ground & 500 receiving. he was supposed to be a potentially elite back in his draft class.
in Denver that means TD & Portis type numbers or better and being picked that high means he better reach them.
Problem there is fans not realizing how different TD and Portis had it than Moreno.

If our OL magically impoves to be as good as the '97/'98 line or just the lines that Portis got to run behind (those lines were standout run blockers as well) Moreno STILL wouldn't have the opportunities that Portis and TD had on every carry.

Is a single receiver on our team half the blocker of Rod Smith? Ed McCaffrey? Hell, even Brandon Marshall?

TD, Portis, Olandis Gary, Mike Anderson, and Ruben Droughns all had the advantage of receivers who help open up the second level for a back. Moreno as almost never gotten to the second level with a lead blocker still with him or less than a pair of defenders to beat.

The lack of big plays from Moreno isn't a speed problem or a vision problem. Its a team problem. We saw last year against Jacksonville when Moreno caught a short screen pass and happened to have some blocking in front of him, he tore it off for an extra 50+ yards. That is just about the only time I can recall Moreno getting to the second level and not suddenly being surrounded by defenders.

Its not going to get significantly better this year with Lloyd and Royal as our starting WRs. Neither one is a very good blocker. Decker is solid thanks to his size but still has room to growand ditto for D. Thomas. Until they take over the starting WR jobs though the expectation for big home run plays out of the running game with any kind of consistency is a pipe dream.

ColoradoDarin
08-28-2011, 02:46 PM
Knowshon = Curtis Martin

He's not a speed guy, we've known that since he came into the league. He's also not a short yardage back. He's a jack of all trades back, but doesn't stand out in any one area (though he has excellent receiving skills). What makes him worth a first round pick is if he can be a consistent starter. He was clearly the best back on the team the last 2 years, making 2 yard gains when Buck or Bell were losing yards. He should have been the OROY (every back with his numbers had won it previously). This label of bust is BS. It probably because people expect him to be a Chris Johnson type (and not forgetting that people will hate him solely for being drafted by the former coach)

boppool
08-28-2011, 02:49 PM
Hey, it's not his fault that he was drafted 12th overall...
That falls on McDummy.

He's no Adrian Peterson, but not many RBs are... If he can stay healthy all year and form great one-two punch with McGahee, I'll be ecstatic.

alkemical
08-28-2011, 03:56 PM
Honestly, if he's tossing up 1200yds rushing a year and 600yds rcv + 16+ TD's....and do it for the next 5 years...you can't ask for more.

If he's gotten over his pandis, I see him as a first down & redzone weapon.

Rock Chalk
08-28-2011, 04:47 PM
2010 - Demaryius Thomas, Tim Tebow
2009 - Knowshon Moreno, Robert Ayers
2008 - Ryan Clady
2007 - Jarvis Moss
2006 - Jay Cutler
2005 - None
2004 - DJ Williams
2003 - George Foster
2002 - Ashley Lelie
2001 - Willie Middlebrooks
2000 - Deltha O'Neal

Clady and Cutler.

So Beantowns argument holds water.

DrFate
08-28-2011, 04:54 PM
He's finally healthy, back to his playing weight from college and playing behind what looks like a competent OL. ...Does Knowshon look like the guy that was a consensus mid-1st round pick in 2009 or does he still look like an underachiever?

He still seems to lack that home-run ability. He looks better than in the past, but based on where he was drafted I'd like to see a true breakaway threat. I never expected a short-yardage player, just based on size. But you'd hope a guy south of 2 bills could break one from time to time (his career long is 36 yards).

And of course, he's far from a workhorse, with a per/game rush average of right at 60 yards/game. For the #12 overall pick, that's not a good return.

Rock Chalk
08-28-2011, 05:02 PM
He still seems to lack that home-run ability. He looks better than in the past, but based on where he was drafted I'd like to see a true breakaway threat. I never expected a short-yardage player, just based on size. But you'd hope a guy south of 2 bills could break one from time to time (his career long is 36 yards).

And of course, he's far from a workhorse, with a per/game rush average of right at 60 yards/game. For the #12 overall pick, that's not a good return.

Depends. Injuries haven't helped his cause but neither has the scheme the first two years. Not really run oriented or even using the run to support the pass. The run under McD was really just a thing to throw in until the next pass.

Ziggy
08-28-2011, 05:06 PM
The lack of big plays from Moreno isn't a speed problem or a vision problem. Its a team problem. We saw last year against Jacksonville when Moreno caught a short screen pass and happened to have some blocking in front of him, he tore it off for an extra 50+ yards. That is just about the only time I can recall Moreno getting to the second level and not suddenly being surrounded by defenders.


I have to disagree with this. Moreno has always been good in space. He just doesn't have the vision to create space for himself.

DrFate
08-28-2011, 05:17 PM
Depends. Injuries haven't helped his cause

This isn't something I take into account. Everyone forgets Ryan Leaf had injury issues (he had a bad wrist). If you are healthy and a bum, or a hurt bum - you are still a bum in my book :)

Not really run oriented or even using the run to support the pass. The run under McD was really just a thing to throw in until the next pass.

I don't disagree that McDaniels was a pass-first guy - that's why it made so much LESS sense to blow a top 15 pick on a scat back. That's on McDaniels, not Moreno. But it doesn't change the facts.

I'm a ROI guy - Moreno was #12 overall and rushes for 60 yards a game. That's a terrible ROI. It's just compounded by the fact that he isn't a short yardage guy OR a home-run guy. He's just a guy.

DrFate
08-28-2011, 05:20 PM
Knowshon = Curtis Martin


LOL

Curtis Martin rushed for 1000+ yards TEN CONSECUTIVE YEARS
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MartCu00.htm


Moreno rushed for 1000+ yards as many times as I have (to date)

Rock Chalk
08-28-2011, 05:21 PM
This isn't something I take into account. Everyone forgets Ryan Leaf had injury issues (he had a bad wrist). If you are healthy and a bum, or a hurt bum - you are still a bum in my book :)



I don't disagree that McDaniels was a pass-first guy - that's why it made so much LESS sense to blow a top 15 pick on a scat back. That's on McDaniels, not Moreno. But it doesn't change the facts.

I'm a ROI guy - Moreno was #12 overall and rushes for 60 yards a game. That's a terrible ROI. It's just compounded by the fact that he isn't a short yardage guy OR a home-run guy. He's just a guy.

That's just it. You wont get your ROI for Moreno under McD's system and thats on McD, not Moreno. But under Fox we probably will. THat's all Im saying.

DrFate
08-28-2011, 05:22 PM
That's just it. You wont get your ROI for Moreno under McD's system and thats on McD, not Moreno. But under Fox we probably will. THat's all Im saying.

I commend your optimism. :)

ColoradoDarin
08-28-2011, 06:24 PM
LOL

Curtis Martin rushed for 1000+ yards TEN CONSECUTIVE YEARS
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MartCu00.htm


Moreno rushed for 1000+ yards as many times as I have (to date)

Curtis Martin's career average per carry 4.0
Knowshon's career average per carry 4.0

OrangeSe7en
08-28-2011, 06:30 PM
Depends. Injuries haven't helped his cause but neither has the scheme the first two years. Not really run oriented or even using the run to support the pass. The run under McD was really just a thing to throw in until the next pass.

Stupid reply. That's not really an argument for Moreno.

OrangeSe7en
08-28-2011, 06:33 PM
Clady and Cutler.

So Beantowns argument holds water.

Not really, most of those other guys were taken lower than Moreno.

broncosteven
08-28-2011, 06:37 PM
Depends. Injuries haven't helped his cause but neither has the scheme the first two years. Not really run oriented or even using the run to support the pass. The run under McD was really just a thing to throw in until the next pass.

Oh mCd wanted to run, his mistake was that he thought he could get a great run game just by willing it into existence.

Remember the Tough and Smart comments? The Indy game where he kept insisting on running the same jumbo power play with a guard pulling on 3rd and 1 and 4th and 1?

Make no mistake mCd wanted to be a tough power run O that he could use to keep D's honest.

The CiDtL option didn't start until after it was apparent that our run game was lucky to put up 60 yards per game.

DENVERDUI55
08-28-2011, 06:38 PM
2010 - Demaryius Thomas, Tim Tebow
2009 - Knowshon Moreno, Robert Ayers
2008 - Ryan Clady
2007 - Jarvis Moss
2006 - Jay Cutler
2005 - None
2004 - DJ Williams
2003 - George Foster
2002 - Ashley Lelie
2001 - Willie Middlebrooks
2000 - Deltha O'Neal

That drafting right there is why we suck so much.

DrFate
08-28-2011, 06:41 PM
Curtis Martin's career average per carry 4.0
Knowshon's career average per carry 4.0

Lance Ball's career average per carry 4.5

You really want to play this game?

broncosteven
08-28-2011, 06:42 PM
He's finally healthy, back to his playing weight from college and playing behind what looks like a competent OL. I'm seeing a guy who can hit the edge, isn't slipping, makes guys miss, is great catching the ball and- most importantly- is squeezing out extra yards when they're not there. Does Knowshon look like the guy that was a consensus mid-1st round pick in 2009 or does he still look like an underachiever?

I would like KM to make me forget that mCd traded for Voltron because his run game was struggling to top 60 yards per game.

I would be content if KM goes over 1200 yards and puts a couple wins away late.

Let me put it this way, he needs to play like he does vs KFC at least 9 games this year.

CEH
08-28-2011, 06:49 PM
One guy rushed it 3500 times the other 429 times and they have the same average? Not sure ppl realize how stats work with 9 times more data points

The kid from OAK looks looks liek he may be a better RB than Knowshown.
He has game breaking speed, can catch the ball and has enough wiggle to make S and LBers miss

Again Knowshown's skill set can be found every year in the 3rd and 4th rounds

ColoradoDarin
08-28-2011, 06:53 PM
Lance Ball's career average per carry 4.5

You really want to play this game?

That's your answer? Hilarious!

Knowshon and Martin have similar style of play. Since you missed that the first time around.

Drek
08-28-2011, 06:54 PM
I would like KM to make me forget that mCd traded for Voltron because his run game was struggling to top 60 yards per game.

He traded for Maroney because Moreno had a serious injury issue still and the alternatives (Ball, etc.) were not safe bets in pass pro.

WolfpackGuy
08-28-2011, 06:54 PM
So what about him?

OrangeSe7en
08-28-2011, 06:56 PM
One guy rushed it 3500 times the other 429 times and they have the same average? Not sure ppl realize how stats work with 9 times more data points

The kid from OAK looks looks liek he may be a better RB than Knowshown.
He has game breaking speed, can catch the ball and has enough wiggle to make S and LBers miss

Again Knowshown's skill set can be found every year in the 3rd and 4th rounds

You did see that he was responding to someone comparing Curtis Martin (with over 10,000 career yards) and Moreno (never has had 1000 yards rushing in a season), right?

DrFate
08-28-2011, 06:59 PM
Knowshon and Martin have similar style of play. Since you missed that the first time around.

Except for the massive productivity Martin put out consistently, year after year. The fact that you want to compare a HOF player like Martin to a marginal starter like Moreno is sad - and when called it on, you point out the fact that they have the same yards/carry average. That's sadder.

ColoradoDarin
08-28-2011, 07:08 PM
Except for the massive productivity Martin put out consistently, year after year. The fact that you want to compare a HOF player like Martin to a marginal starter like Moreno is sad - and when called it on, you point out the fact that they have the same yards/carry average. That's sadder.

I said nothing of stats in my original post. You really have destroyed the strawman you set up, I am amazed by your abilities to knock him down. Well done....

Uhh

He's not a speed guy, we've known that since he came into the league. He's also not a short yardage back. He's a jack of all trades back, but doesn't stand out in any one area (though he has excellent receiving skills). What makes him worth a first round pick is if he can be a consistent starter. He was clearly the best back on the team the last 2 years, making 2 yard gains when Buck or Bell were losing yards. He should have been the OROY (every back with his numbers had won it previously). This label of bust is BS. It probably because people expect him to be a Chris Johnson type (and not forgetting that people will hate him solely for being drafted by the former coach)

Wow, I really went after stats there!

DrFate
08-28-2011, 07:12 PM
I said nothing of stats in my original post.

Who said you did? You did say

Knowshon = Curtis Martin


When I commented on how comical that comparison was, your response was

Curtis Martin's career average per carry 4.0
Knowshon's career average per carry 4.0




This post

Knowshon = Curtis Martin

He's not a speed guy, we've known that since he came into the league. He's also not a short yardage back. He's a jack of all trades back, but doesn't stand out in any one area (though he has excellent receiving skills). What makes him worth a first round pick is if he can be a consistent starter. He was clearly the best back on the team the last 2 years, making 2 yard gains when Buck or Bell were losing yards. He should have been the OROY (every back with his numbers had won it previously). This label of bust is BS. It probably because people expect him to be a Chris Johnson type (and not forgetting that people will hate him solely for being drafted by the former coach)

is certainly more plausible if we ignore the siliness of the first line. I disgree with your conclusion (60 yards rushing per game for the #12 overall pick IS a bust) but the entire story is not written, I suppose...

gunns
08-28-2011, 07:16 PM
I was very impressed with his extra effort last night. I'd still like to see more "production" from him.

ColoradoDarin
08-28-2011, 07:16 PM
You said


When I commented on how comical that comparison was, your response was

That's because I didn't visit PFR for their stats until I clicked your link. It's an interesting coincidence that their ypc was the same. I was blowing you off because your response wasn't worthy of putting any effort into it. I was commenting on their style of play and you talk of stats.

Again, what part of this...

He's not a speed guy, we've known that since he came into the league. He's also not a short yardage back. He's a jack of all trades back, but doesn't stand out in any one area (though he has excellent receiving skills). What makes him worth a first round pick is if he can be a consistent starter. He was clearly the best back on the team the last 2 years, making 2 yard gains when Buck or Bell were losing yards. He should have been the OROY (every back with his numbers had won it previously). This label of bust is BS. It probably because people expect him to be a Chris Johnson type (and not forgetting that people will hate him solely for being drafted by the former coach)

doesn't apply to both Knowshon and Curtis Martin in their style of play?

ColoradoDarin
08-28-2011, 07:19 PM
Re the edit for Drfate:

I do hope with Fox, the move back to the ZBS (which Knowshon is a better fit) and an emphasis on rushing that we'll see the same annual production out of Knowshon that Martin had. The difference between them right now is the durability, hopefully Knowshon will get through that.

DrFate
08-28-2011, 07:20 PM
That's because I didn't visit PFR for their stats until I clicked your link. It's an interesting coincidence that their ypc was the same.

The average for every NFL RB is right around 4 yards/carry. It really isn't that much of a coincidence. And it isn't a great indicator of success, as Ball has a better yards/carry than either one.

I was commenting on their style of play and you talk of stats.


You made a direct comparison. If you want to clarify 'Moreno reminds me of Curtin Martin' - it will still be a stretch (in my opinion), but it won't be downright absurd.

I am aware of your comment, it just misses the most important point. Martin was an immensely productive NFL player. Moreno is not.

DrFate
08-28-2011, 07:22 PM
I do hope with Fox, the move back to the ZBS (which Knowshon is a better fit) and an emphasis on rushing that we'll see the same annual production out of Knowshon that Martin had. The difference between them right now is the durability, hopefully Knowshon will get through that.

I think this is a very fair statement. I don't expect it (maybe I'm a glass half empty guy)

DrFate
08-28-2011, 07:24 PM
I think the point you were trying to make (and to be fair, I quit reading after the first line) is that Martin wasn't a burner and wasn't a goal-line guy per se, but was a very productive player. And you feel Moreno can be that kind of player.

And I applaud your optimism. :thumbsup:

ColoradoDarin
08-28-2011, 07:27 PM
The average for every NFL RB is right around 4 yards/carry. It really isn't that much of a coincidence. And it isn't a great indicator of success, as Ball has a better yards/carry than either one.



You made a direct comparison. If you want to clarify 'Moreno reminds me of Curtin Martin' - it will still be a stretch (in my opinion), but it won't be downright absurd.

I am aware of your comment, it just misses the most important point. Martin was an immensely productive NFL player. Moreno is not.

Seriously?

Yes, I was going for the "reminds me of" and not "exact clone of" with the equals sign. I thought that was pretty obvious by the context of the next paragraph....

ColoradoDarin
08-28-2011, 07:29 PM
I think this is a very fair statement. I don't expect it (maybe I'm a glass half empty guy)

I'm optimistic, usually overly so.

We're 16-0 until we ain't :)

ColoradoDarin
08-28-2011, 07:30 PM
I think the point you were trying to make (and to be fair, I quit reading after the first line) is that Martin wasn't a burner and wasn't a goal-line guy per se, but was a very productive player. And you feel Moreno can be that kind of player.

And I applaud your optimism. :thumbsup:

Hey, I think we might be getting somewhere, Hilarious!

But yeah, that was the point I was going for

DivineLegion
08-28-2011, 07:50 PM
Knowshon's number should never, ever, under any circumstance, be called on a play designed to be run between the tackles.

halfback passes and sweeps are his strong suit.

You must not be watching the same games I am, because from what I've seen hes been just as effective if not more effective running between the tackles. I believe what you are referring to is exactly what Popps mentioned in his post, which is a mentality that Moreno's lack of success came from his supposed lack of ability, when it was actually a circumstance of poor run blocking. Quickly, tell me who is more effective at RT for this team; Orlando Franklin, or Zane Beadles? Oh, this is good! How about Stanley Daniels vs. Zane Beadles at LG? I've got a good one...Josh McDaniels attempt at a "power blocking scheme", or the Broncos returning to their bread and butter the Zone blocking scheme with two experienced starters (Clady, and Kuper), and 3 Rookies better suited to the technique?

strafen
08-28-2011, 08:01 PM
He's finally healthy, back to his playing weight from college and playing behind what looks like a competent OL. I'm seeing a guy who can hit the edge, isn't slipping, makes guys miss, is great catching the ball and- most importantly- is squeezing out extra yards when they're not there. Does Knowshon look like the guy that was a consensus mid-1st round pick in 2009 or does he still look like an underachiever?I'm not a Knowshon fan at all, but I was impressed with the new determination he ran the ball, I see finally some fire and urge to make things happen.

About time! I hope he stays healthy and keeps up the hard work he's put in this season...

Broncoman13
08-28-2011, 08:14 PM
Idk how bout some Dlinemen?

I don't think the Broncos are allowed to draft Dlinemen... pretty sure there is some sort of law or rule the forbids it.

ozomulsion
08-28-2011, 08:18 PM
You must not be watching the same games I am, because from what I've seen hes been just as effective if not more effective running between the tackles. I believe what you are referring to is exactly what Popps mentioned in his post, which is a mentality that Moreno's lack of success came from his supposed lack of ability, when it was actually a circumstance of poor run blocking. Quickly, tell me who is more effective at RT for this team; Orlando Franklin, or Zane Beadles? Oh, this is good! How about Stanley Daniels vs. Zane Beadles at LG? I've got a good one...Josh McDaniels attempt at a "power blocking scheme", or the Broncos returning to their bread and butter the Zone blocking scheme with two experienced starters (Clady, and Kuper), and 3 Rookies better suited to the technique?

You've become wise in your RB evaluation skills throughout the years, my friend. ^5 You got off to a rough start with Q back in the day, but you've done a 180. I'm sorry to say that the people dogging Moreno don't even base their criticism on reality. Mereno did a fine job up the middle last night, for the most part. McGahee got stuffed on a third down short yardage running play last night. It was identical to one that Moreno got stuffed on a couple series earlier, as the Seahawks D-line is solid in short yardage. The same people pointed out who got stuffed on a short yardage 3rd down play. Can you guess which one of our RBs they pointed out? I'm sure you can.

I have a sneaking suspicion that these certain posters who put KM at a near bust status, and not expected to change that in their eyes, are the same people who were in love with another player on draft day, and got all pissy about drafting KM. If he stays healthy he'll kick ass this season, and the same people will be b****in about his lack of breakaway speed.

EDIT: It's nice to see some of the folks who've been b****in for a while now about KM can admit he looks pretty good so far. Although it would be nice to here how he looks better now that he's out of McD's terrible running scheme, rather than HE is the only reason HE looks better.

Archer81
08-28-2011, 08:26 PM
I think Moreno will be excellently served by putting him in a rotation with McGahee and Johnson. I would love it if Moreno could be a 300 carry, 1500 yard RB but he probably will not hit those numbers. 200 carries, 40-60 rec's is what I expect from him with about the same amount of yardage in both. Good back, not a great one.

But he is showing a bit more grit this preseason then he has in the past. He is falling forward and getting the tough yards. It'll do.

:Broncos:

DivineLegion
08-28-2011, 08:29 PM
You've become wise in your RB evaluation skills throughout the years, my friend. ^5 You got off to a rough start with Q back in the day, but you've done a 180. I'm sorry to say that the people dogging Moreno don't even base their criticism on reality. Mereno did a fine job up the middle last night, for the most part. McGahee got stuffed on a third down short yardage running play last night. It was identical to one that Moreno got stuffed on a couple series earlier, as the Seahawks D-line is solid in short yardage. The same people who got stuffed on a short yardage 3rd down play. Can you guess which one of our RBs they pointed out? I'm sure you can.

I have a sneaking suspicion that these certain posters who put KM at a near bust status, and not expected to change that in their eyes, are the same people on draft day who were in love with another player on draft day, and got all pissy about drafting KM. If he stays healthy he'll kick ass this season, and the same people will be b****in about his lack of breakaway speed.

Good to see you back OZ, and to clear things up a little I was only 16 when I was ranting and raving about Q. 7 years of football knowledge, and arguing with people 20 years my senior at sports bars has made a big impression on how I view the game.

Your right about people being butt hurt over not getting their guy in the draft. It's like the people who refuse to see DJ Williams as a solid contributor to this franchise because we missed out on drafting Steven Jackson. I get that Steven Jackson is an imposing force in the league, but DJ Williams has long been considered a top linebacker, and he's highly coveted.

I have a good feeling about our offenses ability to run the football this year. I'm still concerned about Zane Beadles. Shaun O'hara is still available, and could pose as a significant upgrade if Zane's progression continues to falter. Plus it would give us some much needed depth, and veteran leadership on the offensive line.

DENVERDUI55
08-28-2011, 08:30 PM
This thread should be deleated after the slowshon to Martin comparison.

errand
08-28-2011, 08:50 PM
I still have yet to see him break a big run.

Knowshon's only had 5 runs of 20 or more yards so far.... but I think that is more due to our offensive line does not get to the second level enough.....

strafen
08-28-2011, 09:15 PM
Good to see you back OZ, and to clear things up a little I was only 16 when I was ranting and raving about Q. 7 years of football knowledge, and arguing with people 20 years my senior at sports bars has made a big impression on how I view the game.

Your right about people being butt hurt over not getting their guy in the draft. It's like the people who refuse to see DJ Williams as a solid contributor to this franchise because we missed out on drafting Steven Jackson. I get that Steven Jackson is an imposing force in the league, but DJ Williams has long been considered a top linebacker, and he's highly coveted.

I have a good feeling about our offenses ability to run the football this year. I'm still concerned about Zane Beadles. Shaun O'hara is still available, and could pose as a significant upgrade if Zane's progression continues to falter. Plus it would give us some much needed depth, and veteran leadership on the offensive line.
We weren't "butt-hurt" because we didn't get "our guy" we were butt-hurt we didn't draft defense!
That's a ridiculous statement that undermines the needs of the team at the time
In two drafts under McDaniels with tremendous opportunities to solidify our defense, he drafted a RB and a QB in the 1st round respectively in back to back years years!

DivineLegion
08-28-2011, 09:23 PM
We weren't "butt-hurt" because we didn't get "our guy" we were butt-hurt we didn't draft defense!
That's a ridiculous statement that undermines the needs of the team at the time
In two drafts under McDaniels with tremendous opportunities to solidify our defense, he drafted a RB and a QB in the 1st round respectively in back to back years years!

Look, I understand that this team has a had a major defeciancy in young defense talent for years, but you can't change the pick, nor can you argue that RB wasn't a major need at the time. It's been frustrating watching this team squander its draft picks on skill position players neglecting the elephant in the room furthering the mediocrity of the franchise. I believe that's the reason why many here were so upset we didn't get Steve Spagnuolo instead of McDaniels. Lets just say Butt-Hurt is short hand for disappointed.

errand
08-28-2011, 11:02 PM
for him to justify the #12 pick in most fans eyes he's going to have to start putting up 1,300 yards on the ground & 500 receiving. he was supposed to be a potentially elite back in his draft class.
in Denver that means TD & Portis type numbers or better and being picked that high means he better reach them.

But amazingly we don't expect the 25th pick to complete more than 50 percent of his passes to justify his being drafted so high

DENVERDUI55
08-28-2011, 11:06 PM
Look, I understand that this team has a had a major defeciancy in young defense talent for years, but you can't change the pick, nor can you argue that RB wasn't a major need at the time. It's been frustrating watching this team squander its draft picks on skill position players neglecting the elephant in the room furthering the mediocrity of the franchise. I believe that's the reason why many here were so upset we didn't get Steve Spagnuolo instead of McDaniels. Lets just say Butt-Hurt is short hand for disappointed.

Yeah let's take a RB without special ability at 12 instead of a Defensive player. It it much harder to find an impact RB than D man late in a draft right? RB is the only position that undrafted FA's and scrubs come in and make an impact but the idiots in dove valley blow a #12 pick on one.

StugotsIII
08-28-2011, 11:14 PM
Moreno is going to have a big year, bank that.

Archer81
08-28-2011, 11:23 PM
But amazingly we don't expect the 25th pick to complete more than 50 percent of his passes to justify his being drafted so high


...Is this a serious point?


:Broncos:

Archer81
08-28-2011, 11:31 PM
Yeah let's take 1. a RB without special ability at 12 instead of a Defensive player. 2. It it much harder to find an impact RB than D man late in a draft right? 3. RB is the only position that undrafted FA's and scrubs come in and make an impact but the idiots in dove valley blow a #12 pick on one.


1. Considering how woeful our offensive line has been Barry Sanders or Earl Campbell would have looked pedestrian playing behind it...

2. Its hard to find impact players. Considering the number of total players in a rookie class, you get lucky to find a gem.

3. Tom Brady, Shannon Sharpe, Rod Smith, Mark Schlereth, Kurt Warner, Zach Thomas, Marques Colston and others say hello.

:Broncos:

Traveler
08-29-2011, 04:11 AM
I have to disagree with this. Moreno has always been good in space. He just doesn't have the vision to create space for himself.

Great observation Ziggy. We Moreno has looked "better" this pre-season, I'm just not sure he has the vision to see the cut back lanes like McGahee does. I've still watched him run straight into some of his blockers.

Hope he does have a breakout year though. It would be nice if at least one player from the 2009 class starts to pay dividends.

errand
08-29-2011, 04:19 AM
I don't think the Broncos are allowed to draft Dlinemen... pretty sure there is some sort of law or rule the forbids it.

Oh you're wrong ....we are allowed to draft defensive lineman....

We're just not allowed to draft good ones

errand
08-29-2011, 04:23 AM
...Is this a serious point?


:Broncos:

Sure, if we're going to hold people accountable for the draft spot they were selected in.....

tsiguy96
08-29-2011, 05:00 AM
1. Considering how woeful our offensive line has been Barry Sanders or Earl Campbell would have looked pedestrian playing behind it...

2. Its hard to find impact players. Considering the number of total players in a rookie class, you get lucky to find a gem.

3. Tom Brady, Shannon Sharpe, Rod Smith, Mark Schlereth, Kurt Warner, Zach Thomas, Marques Colston and others say hello.

:Broncos:

im pretty sure barry sanders made a living and reputation being amazing without anything even resembling an offensive line. more negative yardage runs than any RB in NFL history i think?

Rock Chalk
08-29-2011, 06:03 AM
Not really, most of those other guys were taken lower than Moreno.

You are an idiot and your reading comprehension sucks.

Beantown's argument that Moreno was better than all but maybe two of Denver's first round picks over the last decade you douche.

Rock Chalk
08-29-2011, 06:04 AM
Stupid reply. That's not really an argument for Moreno.

Why the hell isn't it an argument for Moreno?

As a rusher, he averages 4.0 ypc. If he hasn't gotten to 100 yards a game often or 1000 on the season and he is averaging 4.0 ypc then he isn't getting the ball enough because of scheme.

DrFate
08-29-2011, 06:12 AM
As a rusher, he averages 4.0 ypc. If he hasn't gotten to 100 yards a game often or 1000 on the season and he is averaging 4.0 ypc then he isn't getting the ball enough because of scheme.

And Ball averages 4.5 yards/carry. He should be getting the ball more than Moreno, right? The league average for RBs is right around 4 yards/carry. Moreno isn't suddenly a world-beater because he's hitting that number.

The guy has 2 years under his belt and hasn't been all that productive relative to his draft slot. I'm not sure how anyone can argue this point. Maybe he'll break out this year.

Shoemaker
08-29-2011, 06:39 AM
And Ball averages 4.5 yards/carry. He should be getting the ball more than Moreno, right? The league average for RBs is right around 4 yards/carry. Moreno isn't suddenly a world-beater because he's hitting that number.

The guy has 2 years under his belt and hasn't been all that productive relative to his draft slot. I'm not sure how anyone can argue this point. Maybe he'll break out this year.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. No, Moreno has not been as productive as you would like your 12th overall pick to be, I'll freely admit that. But, as many posters have pointed out in this thread, that's not solely his fault; the productivity of a running back depends a great deal upon his offensive line, and Moreno's blocking has been subpar throughout his career here, and he can't be blamed for that factoring into his production so far. (Not to mention that being injured early in your first two training camps will stunt any player's growth, and that could as easily be chalked up to bad luck as to some fault of Moreno's)

So are you arguing that it was a stupid decision to draft Moreno at 12th overall? Perhaps in hindsight that may eventually prove to be the case, but at the time of the draft Moreno was considered the best RB available and slotted to go exactly where he went, so it wasn't a case of the Broncos reaching for him. I also don't see how anybody can say that we didn't have an enormous need at running back that year, considering that we had Buckhalter, Selvin Young, and Andre Hall as our top three backs.

So, I suppose that I would agree with you that Moreno has not produced to his draft slot, but you seem to consider him a disappointment for doing so, while I don't follow that logic. I can definitely join you in hoping that he breaks out this year, and I'm fairly confident that he'll be able to if our O-Line stays healthy.

DrFate
08-29-2011, 06:49 AM
So are you arguing that it was a stupid decision to draft Moreno at 12th overall?

yes

I've always held the opinion that Moreon has been a terrible ROI selection. There are a vocal few on this board who try to rationalize why he hasn't been that good a player (it's not his fault where he was drafted, it wasn't a run-friendly system, he's been dinged up, etc.) - all have a glimmer of truth, but none change the results. He was the #12 overall pick. His career rush average is right at 60 yards/game. That's not a good ROI.

Somebody in this thread drew the comparison with Curtis Martin, and that discussion got kinda twisted and someone decided to point out that Moreno's career YPC was the same as Martin's. Which isn't relevant in any meaningful way, but that's where it came from.

I was befuddled at the pick when it was made - not because Moreno was a 'bad pick' per se, but that it was a bad pick FOR DENVER - McDaniels had come from a system where the RB position was largely ignored - and then he immediately invested his top selection in that position.

Requiem
08-29-2011, 06:54 AM
And Ball averages 4.5 yards/carry. He should be getting the ball more than Moreno, right? The league average for RBs is right around 4 yards/carry. Moreno isn't suddenly a world-beater because he's hitting that number.

The guy has 2 years under his belt and hasn't been all that productive relative to his draft slot. I'm not sure how anyone can argue this point. Maybe he'll break out this year.

He has averaged over 1,200 yards APY and ~ 8 touchdowns each year, being one of our leading offensive weapons and top scorers. How was he not worth a first-round investment to the team?

WolfpackGuy
08-29-2011, 06:57 AM
I thought they took him so the Chuggers wouldn't.

25 name draft board!

LOL

Requiem
08-29-2011, 06:58 AM
Knowshon Moreno is more Ricky Watters than Curtis Martin, IMHO.

DrFate
08-29-2011, 07:05 AM
He has averaged over 1,200 yards APY and ~ 8 touchdowns each year, being one of our leading offensive weapons and top scorers. How was he not worth a first-round investment to the team?

So your argument is because he's better than the other scrap heap pickups on the team, he's earned his high draft slot?

Requiem
08-29-2011, 07:08 AM
I was befuddled at the pick when it was made - not because Moreno was a 'bad pick' per se, but that it was a bad pick FOR DENVER - McDaniels had come from a system where the RB position was largely ignored - and then he immediately invested his top selection in that position.

Knowshon Moreno was drafted so McDaniels could get use out of a good back in his system. They didn't have anybody else with his receiving skills who could successfully hold that role for the team, nor anyone who potentially screamed full-time starter material. (I'm sure someone will say Hillis.) Everybody knew that defense was a need for the team, but everybody who watched the Broncos prior to McDaniels remembers the injury history and would tell you that getting a back was an essential need as well.

It doesn't matter that Mike Shanahan found talent late in the draft and never used a first rounder on a back. It doesn't even matter that he was selected #12 overall. People use the argument that since he was drafted so high, he has to be putting up All-Pro numbers. Baloney. He is doing just fine.

He should have more opportunities with John Fox's offense to put up better numbers. As long as he stays healthy, I do not think that is going to be the problem. I just think it is hilarious that people will admit our OL was bad, the scheme wasn't helpful to Moreno, etc. -- and still piss on his accomplishments here. As I've said, if Moreno, one of our leading scores and producers isn't living up to expectations, everyone must be pretty horrid, right?

The Orakpo/Matthews Revisionist Draft B.S. is a stupid deflection. Judge the player on his merits, not who else we could have had after the fact.

Knowshon has showed a lot of promise and been a good contributor from the team. He came into the NFL a year early, is incredibly young and still has a lot of miles on his tires. The simple fact that this guy is going to play out his contract in Denver (just my gut feeling) was worth the first-round investment, especially considering most draftees are out of the NFL before those contracts are even up.

I'm a Knowshon homer, a Broncos fan and an optimist. I think this is his year to do big things. If he doesn't show any improvement in his critical third year, I'll tip you guys my hat.

alkemical
08-29-2011, 07:08 AM
Knowshon Moreno is more Ricky Watters than Curtis Martin, IMHO.

I saw Ricky play high school ball. He was a d!ck too.

Beantown Bronco
08-29-2011, 07:11 AM
Knowshon Moreno is more Ricky Watters than Curtis Martin, IMHO.

Statistically speaking, that's a really good comparison.

Ricky averaged just over 1,000 rushing yds per season, 400 receiving and 9+ TDs per season (rushing and receiving) over a 10 year career.

alkemical
08-29-2011, 07:12 AM
Statistically speaking, that's a really good comparison.

Ricky averaged just over 1,000 rushing yds per season, 400 receiving and 9+ TDs per season (rushing and receiving) over a 10 year career.

If Moreno hits those marks, I have no problem with the #12 pick.

DrFate
08-29-2011, 07:14 AM
People use the argument that since he was drafted so high, he has to be putting up All-Pro numbers. Baloney. He is doing just fine.

Here is a list of 1000 yard rushers from 2010

Arian Foster
Jamaal Charles
Michael Turner
Chris Johnson
Maurice Jones-Drew
Adrian Peterson
Rashard Mendenhall
Steven Jackson
Ahmad Bradshaw
Ray Rice
Peyton Hillis
Darren McFadden
Cedric Benson
LeSean McCoy
Matt Forte
BenJarvus Green-Ellis
LeGarrettte Blount

Tell me who's missing...

DrFate
08-29-2011, 07:16 AM
Watters broke 1000 yards 7 times

Watters averaged 73.9 yards/game rushing and 29.5 yards/game recieving

Moreno averages 59.5 yards/game rushing and 20.2 yards/game recieving

HOW CAN YOU TELL THEM APART?!?!

Beantown Bronco
08-29-2011, 07:17 AM
To be fair, how many of them would have hit 1000 yds in 182 carries?

Beantown Bronco
08-29-2011, 07:17 AM
Watters broke 1000 yards 7 times

But only ONCE in his first four years in the league.

DrFate
08-29-2011, 07:18 AM
But only ONCE in his first four years in the league.

Fair point (of course he had zero games played as a rookie)

Dedhed
08-29-2011, 07:20 AM
I'm not worried about Moreno. Never have been.

Rulon Velvet Jones
08-29-2011, 07:21 AM
Is it surprising for a running back to not put up massive numbers in a Josh McDaniels offense? Fox demands more of his backs and, if Moreno really is in great shape and is up to the task, he'll start to live up to his potential even more this season.

Requiem
08-29-2011, 07:21 AM
Here is a list of 1000 yard rushers from 2010

Arian Foster
Jamaal Charles
Michael Turner
Chris Johnson
Maurice Jones-Drew
Adrian Peterson
Rashard Mendenhall
Steven Jackson
Ahmad Bradshaw
Ray Rice
Peyton Hillis
Darren McFadden
Cedric Benson
LeSean McCoy
Matt Forte
BenJarvus Green-Ellis
LeGarrettte Blount

Tell me who's missing...

I take a look at all those players and most all of them play for teams who are dedicated to running the football as their offensive M.O. Those players play for teams that have great lines. Some of those players didn't have as many touchdowns as Moreno either, nor shined in the passing game like he did.

So rushing yards are apparently what truly matters? So a running back that runs for 1,300 yards and gets 120 receiving and only 5 touchdowns is essentially more productive than a guy who gets ~1200 from scrimmage and scores more?

Yeah, right.

Requiem
08-29-2011, 07:28 AM
Watters broke 1000 yards 7 times

Watters averaged 73.9 yards/game rushing and 29.5 yards/game recieving

Moreno averages 59.5 yards/game rushing and 20.2 yards/game recieving

HOW CAN YOU TELL THEM APART?!?!

Are statistics the only way you can compare players and try to say that they are not alike?

My argument for Moreno and Watters isn't based on their statistical similarities. Another poster brought up that they were similar.

But if you want to talk statistics, I'll just point out that outside 1995 and 1996, Watters never had a large rushing season. Watters was never an explosive, Adrian Peterson or Chris Johnson type runner. He like Moreno, didn't break the super-duper long ones, and spent more than half his career averaging less than 4 yards a carry. He is remembered (by those who watched him play) for adding an incredible dynamic out of the backfield as a receiver, which is where he earned a lot of his total yardage and made a name for himself in the NFL.

The traits and skills of the players is why I made the comparison, the statistics really only help enforce that, not take away from it as you have tried to suggest. Do better.

DrFate
08-29-2011, 07:29 AM
I take a look at all those players and most all of them play for teams who are dedicated to running the football as their offensive M.O. Those players play for teams that have great lines. Some of those players didn't have as many touchdowns as Moreno either, nor shined in the passing game like he did.

You seem to have a long laundry list of why Moreno isn't all that productive, but why 'it's not really his fault'.

He was the #12 pick. He averages about 60 yards/game on the ground and about 20 yards/game in the air. He's not a home run threat. And he's not a short yardage threat. He's a decent NFL RB who was drafted way too high.

Where is the confusion here?

DrFate
08-29-2011, 07:31 AM
Are statistics the only way you can compare players and try to say that they are not alike? My argument for Moreno and Watters isn't based on their statistical similarities. Another poster brought up that they were similar.

Another poster also brought up a Curtis Martin comparison. Good backs being compared to a mediocre back.

Don't you see the flaw in drawing comparisons to extremely productive backs? Guys who did it year after year?

You could depend on Martin or Watters every year as a workhorse. You CAN NOT depend on Moreno for that role. That is the important distinction.

Requiem
08-29-2011, 07:34 AM
You seem to have a long laundry list of why Moreno isn't all that productive, but why 'it's not really his fault'.

He was the #12 pick. He averages about 60 yards/game on the ground and about 20 yards/game in the air. He's not a home run threat. And he's not a short yardage threat. He's a decent NFL RB who was drafted way too high.

Where is the confusion here?

I've pointed out his productiveness in lieu of having a terrible line and playing in a different scheme.

There is no confusion from me. The only confused one here is you. (See: your failed attempts re: statistics and analytics.)

Your arguments against Moreno (and others):

He is not Orakpo or Matthews
Denver doesn't draft first-round running backs!
Lance Ball has a higher YPC!
Dude, he was drafted 12th overall -- he should be like Adrian Peterson!

All of which are incredibly stupid and discuss nothing of substance as to why Knowshon wasn't worth the selection to the team.

Beantown Bronco
08-29-2011, 07:35 AM
You seem to have a long laundry list of why Moreno isn't all that productive, but why 'it's not really his fault'.

He was the #12 pick. He averages about 60 yards/game on the ground and about 20 yards/game in the air. He's not a home run threat. And he's not a short yardage threat. He's a decent NFL RB who was drafted way too high.

Where is the confusion here?

The confusion here is that you are looking at everything in a bubble. The RB position by definition is extremely dependent on two things that they have zero control over: play calling (you can't rack up yards and statistics in general if they don't call your number) and everyone else doing their jobs well. Again, I'll ask: how many of last year's 1000 yd rushers would've had 1000 yds if they had as few carries as he had (not to mention the blocking he had)?

Beantown Bronco
08-29-2011, 07:37 AM
You could depend on Martin or Watters every year as a workhorse. You CAN NOT depend on Moreno for that role. That is the important distinction.

Watters only had 4 seasons with over 300 carries.

DrFate
08-29-2011, 07:39 AM
He is not Orakpo or Matthews

He certainly is not

Denver doesn't draft first-round running backs!

I never said that

Lance Ball has a higher YPC!

That's true

Dude, he was drafted 12th overall -- he should be like Adrian Peterson!

Expectation are higher of a premier pick. Too bad Moreno is just an average player.

Requiem
08-29-2011, 07:39 AM
Another poster also brought up a Curtis Martin comparison. Good backs being compared to a mediocre back.

Don't you see the flaw in drawing comparisons to extremely productive backs? Guys who did it year after year?

You could depend on Martin or Watters every year as a workhorse. You CAN NOT depend on Moreno for that role. That is the important distinction.

Those guys had legendary careers that lasted a long time, have a large sample size to go by. As pointed out, Watters wasn't always productive in the backfield. He was a much more productive receiver when given the opportunity. He excelled in that role, while being an average "rusher" in the NFL. There is nothing wrong to comparing Moreno to Watters at all. It is a very good comparison based on their football skills and the roles they served on their team(s).

I didn't bring up Curtis Martin.

You really have a way of twisting people's words and arguments to try and have your way. I've laid out everything with ease and simplicity. If you can't get the jist of my argument without skewing it, that is on you, and truly have on interest with "debating" someone who can be so purposely dishonest about the subject.

CEH
08-29-2011, 07:41 AM
My evaluation of Knowshown this year will be very simple . I will watch how many times he has to beat a LBer or S one on one and does he do it. That is a basic necessity of any NFL RB. I'm not keeping track of number of times but when the oppountity occurs does he accomplish the miss or is he tackled

DrFate
08-29-2011, 07:41 AM
If you can't get the jist of my argument without skewing it, that is on you, and truly have on interest with "debating" someone who can be so purposely dishonest about the subject.

LOL

I back up claims with facts and stats. You can't take off the homer glasses long enough to even try.

Requiem
08-29-2011, 07:42 AM
Expectation are higher of a premier pick. Too bad Moreno is just an average player.

That doesn't mean your expectations are realistic.

1,800 YFS year in and year out? Something Ricky Watters and Curtis Martin did twice.

Hilarious!

Requiem
08-29-2011, 07:46 AM
LOL

I back up claims with facts and stats. You can't take off the homer glasses long enough to even try.

What fact(s) and what stats that were actually relevant? I've already addressed your poor statistic and analytic ability in prior posts. No stats you brought up meant anything constructive at all.

You are 38 years old and would easily struggle against middle school kids I've tutored who are just getting immersed into LD Debate.

Better yourself.

DrFate
08-29-2011, 07:46 AM
That doesn't mean your expectations are realistic.


That's fair. I expect a top #15 pick to be a premier player. (see Von Miller)

Moreno's production to date could have easily been drafted in the later rounds.

DrFate
08-29-2011, 07:48 AM
You are 38 years old and would easily struggle against middle school kids I've tutored who are just getting immersed into LD Debate.

Then you should be familiar with the fallacy of ad hominem - which is your primary technique.

'He reminds me of Ricky Watters' is not persuasive. (I'd make a comment about how I feel sorry for your poorly trained middle-schoolers and the state of education in the world today, but I won't)

DrFate
08-29-2011, 07:51 AM
Watters only had 4 seasons with over 300 carries.

And yet he broke the 1k yard mark seven times. Funny how that works for productive running backs...

CEH
08-29-2011, 07:53 AM
I take a look at all those players and most all of them play for teams who are dedicated to running the football as their offensive M.O. Those players play for teams that have great lines. Some of those players didn't have as many touchdowns as Moreno either, nor shined in the passing game like he did.

So rushing yards are apparently what truly matters? So a running back that runs for 1,300 yards and gets 120 receiving and only 5 touchdowns is essentially more productive than a guy who gets ~1200 from scrimmage and scores more?

Yeah, right.

Yes if I'm drafting a RB at #12 then rushing yards trump recieving yards otherwise I wait and draft 11 of those on the above list in round 2 or beyond

Why do we assume McD knew what he was doing in the draft especially '09 with all his busts and bad moves.

DrFate
08-29-2011, 07:55 AM
how many of last year's 1000 yd rushers would've had 1000 yds if they had as few carries as he had?

Any back who averaged about 5.5 yards/carry (so probably zero)

So it is your opinion that because Moreno only got 14 carries a game, that's a point in his favor?

Rulon Velvet Jones
08-29-2011, 07:55 AM
Is this guy really a doctor?

Beantown Bronco
08-29-2011, 07:56 AM
And yet he broke the 1k yard mark seven times. Funny how that works for productive running backs...

Because that's easy to do with 250 or more carries a year. Moreno only got about 180 last year. Watters never had that few carries until his last year when he only played in 5 games.

DrFate
08-29-2011, 07:56 AM
Why do we assume McD knew what he was doing in the draft especially '09 with all his busts and bad moves.

Because Moreno reminds Requiem of Ricky Watters when he comes off the bus, apparently

Requiem
08-29-2011, 07:56 AM
Then you should be familiar with the fallacy of ad hominem - which is your primary technique.

I'm familiar, and it didn't come up until you started displaying yourself as the modern day Terri Schiavo.

'He reminds me of Ricky Watters' is not persuasive.

I elaborated on why he is like Watters in several different posts. There you go being dishonest again

(I'd make a comment about how I feel sorry for your poorly trained middle-schoolers and the state of education in the world today, but I won't)

I helped tutor them in debate, I don't teach middle school. I wouldn't feel sorry for those kids, because they've gone on to succeed and do well in their debate careers as they've matured.

So go ahead and make the comment. Trash the state of education and all that jargon as it relates to a non-teacher. Go for it. It will just be amusing considering you cannot grasp basic statistic principles, are intellectually dishonest in your portrayal of others arguments and seem to be a few french fries short of a happy meal on trying to keep the record straight.

Guess your education experiences weren't much better than those poor, debate tutored middle schoolers.

WolfpackGuy
08-29-2011, 07:57 AM
Watters or Martin?

He's not even McCoy or Greene!

I'll be shocked if he can go without needing a blow after every other carry.

Beantown Bronco
08-29-2011, 07:57 AM
Any back who averaged about 5.5 yards/carry (so probably zero)

So it is your opinion that because Moreno only got 14 carries a game, that's a point in his favor?

Yes, to an extent. It most certainly is. Unless you think our head coach was right to essentially ignore the run game.

DrFate
08-29-2011, 07:58 AM
You confuse me, Beantown. You say

Watters only had 4 seasons with over 300 carries.

and then you follow that with

Because that's easy to do with 250 or more carries a year.


I'm trying to figure out if Moreno looks better because Watters got fewer carries or more carries?

DrFate
08-29-2011, 08:00 AM
Yes, to an extent. It most certainly is. Unless you think our head coach was right to essentially ignore the run game.

I've said one reason the selection made so little sense (to me) was because McDaniels has a history of ignoring the run game.

Requiem
08-29-2011, 08:00 AM
Any back who averaged about 5.5 yards/carry (so probably zero)

So it is your opinion that because Moreno only got 14 carries a game, that's a point in his favor?

http://animediet.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/633861426363034370-Facepalm.jpg

Beantown Bronco
08-29-2011, 08:00 AM
You confuse me, Beantown. You say



and then you follow that with




I'm trying to figure out if Moreno looks better because Watters got fewer carries or more carries?

It's simple really.

You called Watters a workhorse back. A workhorse back averages over 300 carries a season in my opinion. That's only 18 carries per game, so I think that's a fair criteria. Watters didn't do that. He did, however, regularly have 250 or more carries, which makes it fairly easy to go over 1000 yds for a year. All you have to do is average 4 yds a carry, which Moreno has proven he can do. All he needs is a head coach that gives him those carries. It's simple logic.

DarkHorse
08-29-2011, 08:03 AM
Not completely sold on his improvement yet, let's wait until regular season. But, i'll say he does look a lot better than previous seasons. Is it the new run scheme?

DrFate
08-29-2011, 08:05 AM
It's simple really.

You called Watters a workhorse back. A workhorse back averages over 300 carries a season in my opinion. That's only 18 carries per game, so I think that's a fair criteria. Watters didn't do that. He did, however, regularly have 250 or more carries, which makes it fairly easy to go over 1000 yds for a year. All you have to do is average 4 yds a carry, which Moreno has proven he can do. All he needs is a head coach that gives him those carries. It's simple logic.

I wasn't defining it as '300 carries a season'. I was defining it more loosely as a consistent, productive player.

I cannot argue with your impeccable logic that if Moreno gets 250 carries and averages 4 yards a carry, he will get to 1000 yards.

I'm also not making any evaluation of what he MIGHT do. I've been commenting on his production to date.

CEH
08-29-2011, 08:06 AM
Watters or Martin?

He's not even McCoy or Greene!

I'll be shocked if he can go without needing a blow after every other carry.

Look up Kevin Smith Detroit Lions for a nice 1st two years comparsion if we are playing the comparsion game. Another 3rd round pick. And this was on an 0-16 team. I give Knowshown credit for realizing he's at a crossroads and worked hard this off season. Now the proof will be what he does for a true running team.

Beantown Bronco
08-29-2011, 08:10 AM
I wasn't defining it as '300 carries a season'. I was defining it more loosely as a consistent, productive player.

Gotcha. Not to belabor the point, but I think you'd find yourself alone in defining a workhorse back in that manner. Every place I've ever seen that term used has assigned it to someone who averages 20+ carries per game.

DrFate
08-29-2011, 08:14 AM
Gotcha. Not to belabor the point, but I think you'd find yourself alone in defining a workhorse back in that manner. Every place I've ever seen that term used has assigned it to someone who averages 20+ carries per game.

I appreciate your attempt at consensus :)

DrFate
08-29-2011, 08:17 AM
Every place I've ever seen that term used has assigned it to someone who averages 20+ carries per game.

What I was getting at, of course, is that you want to say 'Moreno would put up better numbers if he got more carries'

Which is without a doubt true...

But it's easy to respond with 'Moreno would get more carries if he had better numbers'

Is Moreno capable of 20+ carries a game? And will he continue to produce on carry #21 in a similar fashion to carry #1?

When it comes to Tebow, I'm beaten over the head with 'coach knows best'. Is there a reason Moreno doesnt' get that heavy load?

I'd like to see a high draft pick get a ton of carries. But he hasn't to date, and I'm not sure I can place it all on the system. Who was #2 and #3 on the team in carries last year?

Beantown Bronco
08-29-2011, 08:26 AM
I'm not saying Moreno needs to get a heavy load. He just needs to get ANY load. Right now, he's getting no real touches....fewer than almost every #1 back out there if not every #1 back out there. And it has less to do with what he does when he does get it and more to do with playcalling in general IMO. In other words, it's not like his yards per carry sucks, so it's not all on him.

In theory, all he needs is 15-16 carries per game to reach 1000. He certainly doesn't need 20-25. I'm not asking for him to get so many carries that he wears down prematurely.

Beantown Bronco
08-29-2011, 08:28 AM
When it comes to Tebow, I'm beaten over the head with 'coach knows best'. Is there a reason Moreno doesnt' get that heavy load?

So far, two completely different coaching staffs have determined that Tebow's not ready to start. Only one has decided that Moreno shouldn't get more carries, and unless I'm mistaken, he was the consensus worst head coach the Broncos have ever seen.

If Fox also decides to keep Knowshon down below 200 carries a year, then I'll believe it's more on him and less on the coaching.

DrFate
08-29-2011, 08:31 AM
If Fox also decides to keep Knowshon down below 200 carries a year, then I'll believe it's more on him and less on the coaching.

Fair enough :)

TheChamp24
08-29-2011, 08:40 AM
Holy cow, I don't want just 1,000 yards from our back, I want 1200+ at minimum.
75 yards a game, 300 carries at 4 ypc which is 18-19 carries a game. Give us a starting back who can rack up 1200 yards and 10 TD's on the ground and I'm all game. Then a backup with 500 more. Thats what I would like.

Beantown Bronco
08-29-2011, 08:46 AM
Holy cow, I don't want just 1,000 yards from our back, I want 1200+ at minimum.
75 yards a game, 300 carries at 4 ypc which is 18-19 carries a game. Give us a starting back who can rack up 1200 yards and 10 TD's on the ground and I'm all game. Then a backup with 500 more. Thats what I would like.

Yup, I guess it's all up to Fox and how he views his role in the passing game. Obviously, if he reduces his workload there, then the 1200 yard rushing figure becomes more of a necessity. But if he keeps up the 300+ yd receiving pace, then I think it becomes less important. I'm definitely in the "all purpose" camp myself. Touches are touches and I don't care so much if he gets them on the ground or through the air.

DENVERDUI55
08-29-2011, 09:07 AM
Statistically speaking, that's a really good comparison.

Ricky averaged just over 1,000 rushing yds per season, 400 receiving and 9+ TDs per season (rushing and receiving) over a 10 year career.

A good comparison is Kevin Faulk=SLOWSHON.

Beantown Bronco
08-29-2011, 09:13 AM
A good comparison is Kevin Faulk=SLOWSHON.

Faulk was pretty much just a 3rd down back and occasional change of pace back. In his 12 year career, he had one year over 600 rushing yards. Sure they are both threats to catch the ball, but that is where the similarity ends. There are lots of rbs that could be compared if that's all we're talking about.

bowtown
08-29-2011, 09:22 AM
I'm not saying Moreno needs to get a heavy load. He just needs to get ANY load. Right now, he's getting no real touches....fewer than almost every #1 back out there if not every #1 back out there. And it has less to do with what he does when he does get it and more to do with playcalling in general IMO. In other words, it's not like his yards per carry sucks, so it's not all on him.

In theory, all he needs is 15-16 carries per game to reach 1000. He certainly doesn't need 20-25. I'm not asking for him to get so many carries that he wears down prematurely.

Eventually you have to throw.

Cito Pelon
08-29-2011, 09:35 AM
I thought they took him so the Chuggers wouldn't.

25 name draft board!

LOL

Ya know, I really think that has to be entered into the argument. That, and also that Bobby Turner wanted Moreno real bad. Bobby Turner loved Moreno coming into the draft.

Look at it this way - San Diego wanted a versatile all-purpose back with a little power in the 2009 draft to replace LaDainian, complement Sproles, and FB Mike Tolbert. AJ Smith had traded up for Jacob Hester in 2008, and Hester was supposed to be the guy that would be that versatile back with some power but Hester didn't produce.

I firmly believe AJ Smith wanted Moreno in that 2009 draft with their 1st round pick. So, because Denver grabbed Moreno, San Diego ended up with their fallback option Larry English, who's been a major bust.

AND, in order to get that RB to replace LaDainian, AJ Smith had to trade up AGAIN to get Ryan Mathews in the 1st round in 2010.

Therefore, because Denver grabbed Moreno (who has been a solid back), by doing so it cost San Diego multiple draft picks to get LaDainian's replacement (Ryan Mathews).

And, Mathews isn't all that great. So in my mind, that has to be added into Moreno's worth to the Broncos. Right?

bowtown
08-29-2011, 09:38 AM
Ya know, I really think that has to be entered into the argument. That, and also that Bobby Turner wanted Moreno real bad. Bobby Turner loved Moreno coming into the draft.


^^^^

Called him "the complete package."

bendog
08-29-2011, 09:50 AM
I liked him for the zone blocking scheme. I'm not really sure he and Willis have 1600-1700 yards in them, though. I think the gripe about him being taken to high was both that Orakpo was OBVIOUS, and he wasn't THAT good in college. Complain all you want about Shanny, and I'm not one of his greatest fans, but that pick was like a Delta ONeal grasp at need. That was when I knew Den was screwed with McD. The other thing is that if you look at the three skill position stats, running back is the place where MOST of the top ten performers are not 1st rd picks. So, if you burn one on a running back, you best NOT be having busts when you take WRs and QBs. But Moreno's an ok player. The only gripes about him are that he OBVIOUSLY wasn't the best player on the board, and he's most likely never going to be mentioned in the same breath with AP or CJ.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2010/leaders.htm

enjolras
08-29-2011, 09:54 AM
Not completely sold on his improvement yet, let's wait until regular season. But, i'll say he does look a lot better than previous seasons. Is it the new run scheme?

Definitely in part. Moreno looks MUCH more comfortable as a cut-back runner as opposed to the McD's insistance on piling him into the tackles as part of his power running scheme.

I think his new found conditioning is also a really big deal. He's lighter and miles quicker.

enjolras
08-29-2011, 09:56 AM
But Moreno's an ok player. The only gripes about him are that he OBVIOUSLY wasn't the best player on the board, and he's most likely never going to be mentioned in the same breath with AP or CJ.

I more or less agree with this. The argument over his draft position isn't particularly relevant. The guy who made the pick is gone. We have him now, and he has shown real improvement coming into this season. That he was the 12th pick just doesn't matter.

bendog
08-29-2011, 09:59 AM
I more or less agree with this. The argument over his draft position isn't particularly relevant. The guy who made the pick is gone. We have him now, and he has shown real improvement coming into this season. That he was the 12th pick just doesn't matter.

yep. Moreno's a credible starting TB. And I don't think character's ever been an issue. Den's got positions you can't say that about. I still think they need a third runner.

Cito Pelon
08-29-2011, 09:59 AM
Yup, I guess it's all up to Fox and how he views his role in the passing game. Obviously, if he reduces his workload there, then the 1200 yard rushing figure becomes more of a necessity. But if he keeps up the 300+ yd receiving pace, then I think it becomes less important. I'm definitely in the "all purpose" camp myself. Touches are touches and I don't care so much if he gets them on the ground or through the air.

Yeah, Moreno has only had 17 touches per game in his 29 games played. Kick that touches per game up to 22 and Moreno's 2311 Yscm becomes over 3000 Yscm in 29 games.

Moreno can produce, get him up there into 25 touches per game (and like you said TOUCHES, not just rushes) and at 4.9 yds per touch (Moreno's career average per touch) that is 1960 Yscm in 16 games.

It's ok to have Moreno at about 280 rushes per 16 games, and at about 112 pass catches per 16 games. That is about 400 touches per season and doesn't wear the guy out, but will still produce apx 2000 Yscm at the pace Moreno had in his first 29 games.

And hopefully, as has been mentioned many times, with a new coaching staff and better O-line, Moreno's yards per touch goes up let's say 1 yard per touch. That would put Moreno at about 6 yards per touch, so with 400 touches that puts Moreno at 2400 all-purpose yards per 16 games.

CEH
08-29-2011, 10:03 AM
The OP asked for opinions on whether Knowshown will live up to his mid 1st round draft status. For the discussion in this thread only I'd say draft status is relevant . It keeps the thread on topic

Beantown Bronco
08-29-2011, 10:15 AM
The OP asked for opinions on whether Knowshown will live up to his mid 1st round draft status. For the discussion in this thread only I'd say draft status is relevant . It keeps the thread on topic

Considering where the majority of this site's multi-page threads have gone in the past, I'd say that we've done REALLY good here keeping this one on topic.

(That it has taken place during MacGruder's timeout I'm sure is hardly a coincidence.)

bendog
08-29-2011, 10:25 AM
The OP asked for opinions on whether Knowshown will live up to his mid 1st round draft status. For the discussion in this thread only I'd say draft status is relevant . It keeps the thread on topic

Jonathan Stewart went 13 in 2008 and Ryan Mathews went 12 in 2010. But in 09, LeSean McCoy went in the second rd and Shonn Green in the 3rd. It's just that by virtue of the position and the number or DivI running backs, teams are going to find as much value in the later day one picks than mid first round.

In 2008 CJ went with the 24th pick, but then Forte at 44, Ray Rice at 55, kevin smith at 66, and J. Charles at 73.

I'm not disagreeing with you because I HATED the pick. Sonic was the most talented rb I've seen in Den since Little (not the best or the most determined) and he was a second rounder. I think there should be a rule to never take a running back in the first unless a guy's got Adrian Peterson skills or or unless a guy shows up at the combine and runs a sub 4.3 (Chris Johnson). But Moreno is not a bust, and he matches up OK with othe running backs who were drafted around his slot.

CEH
08-29-2011, 10:27 AM
Considering where the majority of this site's multi-page threads have gone in the past, I'd say that we've done REALLY good here keeping this one on topic.

(That it has taken place during MacGruder's timeout I'm sure is hardly a coincidence.)

Yeah that MacGruber guy really took the football talk down an unpleasant road. ESPN is almost the Anti MacGruber. The highlight they choose to show was the fumbled snap. Not the 20 scramble nor the screen pass. All negative Tebow from what I can see

Archer81
08-29-2011, 11:29 AM
Yeah that MacGruber guy really took the football talk down an unpleasant road. ESPN is almost the Anti MacGruber. The highlight they choose to show was the fumbled snap. Not the 20 scramble nor the screen pass. All negative Tebow from what I can see


NFLN is not much different. The highlights of the dallas game, they showed the long completion to Decker for Orton and the sack of Tebow. It is what it is. Tebow "struggled" (6 for 7) Orton looked "sharp" (2 for 6).

F em.

:Broncos:

Inkana7
08-29-2011, 11:31 AM
NFLN is not much different. The highlights of the dallas game, they showed the long completion to Decker for Orton and the sack of Tebow. It is what it is. Tebow "struggled (6 for 7) Orton looked sharp (2 for 6).

F em.

:Broncos:

http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/9416101.jpg

Archer81
08-29-2011, 11:34 AM
http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/9416101.jpg


Do I look like MacGruder to you?

Orton is not as good as ESPN and NFLN is pushing. Tebow is not as bad. considering how Denver area reporters are reporting on camp, I am not surprised they would print what they are printing.

It is what it is.

:Broncos:

DrFate
08-29-2011, 12:03 PM
http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/9416101.jpg

I love that guy!!

TheChamp24
08-29-2011, 12:06 PM
Yeah, Moreno has only had 17 touches per game in his 29 games played. Kick that touches per game up to 22 and Moreno's 2311 Yscm becomes over 3000 Yscm in 29 games.

Moreno can produce, get him up there into 25 touches per game (and like you said TOUCHES, not just rushes) and at 4.9 yds per touch (Moreno's career average per touch) that is 1960 Yscm in 16 games.

It's ok to have Moreno at about 280 rushes per 16 games, and at about 112 pass catches per 16 games. That is about 400 touches per season and doesn't wear the guy out, but will still produce apx 2000 Yscm at the pace Moreno had in his first 29 games.

And hopefully, as has been mentioned many times, with a new coaching staff and better O-line, Moreno's yards per touch goes up let's say 1 yard per touch. That would put Moreno at about 6 yards per touch, so with 400 touches that puts Moreno at 2400 all-purpose yards per 16 games.

Show me a RB that has ever had 112 catches in a season. Moreno can't put those numbers up you're talking about. Its fantasy.
I still stand by my statement he needs to rush for 1,200 yards at minimum. Guarantees chains get moved and clock runs, wearing defense out.

Rock Chalk
08-29-2011, 12:07 PM
Show me a RB that has ever had 112 catches in a season. Moreno can't put those numbers up you're talking about. Its fantasy.
I still stand by my statement he needs to rush for 1,200 yards at minimum. Guarantees chains get moved and clock runs, wearing defense out.

112 is a lot.

Cut that in half for Moreno and call it good.

DrFate
08-29-2011, 12:09 PM
Show me a RB that has ever had 112 catches in a season.

Roger Craig had 92 receptions in '85 (that was his 1k yards rushing, 1k yards recieving year)

that's the first name that came to my mind

Apparently LT had an even 100 in 2003 and Larry Centers had 101 in 1995...

DrFate
08-29-2011, 12:22 PM
Yeah, I f'd that up for sure.

Nah - it's positive thinking ^5

Requiem
08-29-2011, 12:36 PM
He doesn't mean that many catches, I think he means targets. (Times thrown to.)

Don't think that would be possible.

Cito Pelon
08-29-2011, 12:58 PM
Roger Craig had 92 receptions in '85 (that was his 1k yards rushing, 1k yards recieving year)

that's the first name that came to my mind

Apparently LT had an even 100 in 2003 and Larry Centers had 101 in 1995...

So it wasn't a swing and a miss. whew.

TheChamp24
08-29-2011, 01:07 PM
Roger Craig had 92 receptions in '85 (that was his 1k yards rushing, 1k yards recieving year)

that's the first name that came to my mind

Apparently LT had an even 100 in 2003 and Larry Centers had 101 in 1995...

Exactly my point. 100 catches for a RB is rarer than a blonde sweedish super model knocking on your door asking if she can polish your knob.

bowtown
08-29-2011, 01:10 PM
Exactly my point. 100 catches for a RB is rarer than a blonde sweedish super model knocking on your door asking if she can polish your knob.

Happens to me all the time.

DrFate
08-29-2011, 01:12 PM
Happens to me all the time.

LOL

maher_tyler
08-29-2011, 02:34 PM
I'm not saying Moreno needs to get a heavy load. He just needs to get ANY load. Right now, he's getting no real touches....fewer than almost every #1 back out there if not every #1 back out there. And it has less to do with what he does when he does get it and more to do with playcalling in general IMO. In other words, it's not like his yards per carry sucks, so it's not all on him.

In theory, all he needs is 15-16 carries per game to reach 1000. He certainly doesn't need 20-25. I'm not asking for him to get so many carries that he wears down prematurely.

Uhh

errand
08-29-2011, 03:35 PM
Moreno averages 59.5 yards/game rushing and 20.2 yards/game recieving



...on an average of 17 touches per game.

just give him the damn ball.....

DENVERDUI55
08-29-2011, 03:57 PM
Yeah, Moreno has only had 17 touches per game in his 29 games played. Kick that touches per game up to 22 and Moreno's 2311 Yscm becomes over 3000 Yscm in 29 games.

Moreno can produce, get him up there into 25 touches per game (and like you said TOUCHES, not just rushes) and at 4.9 yds per touch (Moreno's career average per touch) that is 1960 Yscm in 16 games.

It's ok to have Moreno at about 280 rushes per 16 games, and at about 112 pass catches per 16 games. That is about 400 touches per season and doesn't wear the guy out, but will still produce apx 2000 Yscm at the pace Moreno had in his first 29 games.

And hopefully, as has been mentioned many times, with a new coaching staff and better O-line, Moreno's yards per touch goes up let's say 1 yard per touch. That would put Moreno at about 6 yards per touch, so with 400 touches that puts Moreno at 2400 all-purpose yards per 16 games.
I don't think he could go the whole season without getting hurt with that many touches.

errand
08-29-2011, 03:59 PM
Show me a RB that has ever had 112 catches in a season. Moreno can't put those numbers up you're talking about. Its fantasy.


Larry Centers caught 101 passes as a FB in 1995 for the Cardinals.....realistic that Knowshon would do likewise?...probably not. Fantasy? Anything is possible....


Just saying.....

on edit, i guess i need to start reading the entire page before posting as other posters are pretty astute at pointing out the err of theChamp24's way....

HAT
08-29-2011, 03:59 PM
(That it has taken place during MacGruder's timeout I'm sure is hardly a coincidence.)

Also worth noting that there are currently *only* 5 threads on the main page with Tebow in the title. ^5

Archer81
08-29-2011, 04:01 PM
Larry Centers caught 101 passes as a FB in 1995 for the Cardinals.....realistic that Knowshon would do likewise?...probably not. Fantasy? Anything is possible....


Just saying.....


If Knowshon has to catch 101 passes then something seriously went wrong with our WR's and TE's.


:Broncos:

alkemical
08-29-2011, 04:19 PM
go Know! I just want the guy to make plays. IMO he is a finesse kinda guy. If he is able to be clutch, fine w/me. At least he's playing and not broke like our WR.

WolfpackGuy
08-29-2011, 04:30 PM
If Knowshon has to catch 101 passes then something seriously went wrong with our WR's and TE's.


:Broncos:

No doubt!

I almost said the same thing earlier.

alkemical
08-29-2011, 04:38 PM
or he found some awesome sauce!...or tebow is starting....or maybe tebow makes him awesomer...

dunn...dunnn.duuunnn

TheChamp24
08-29-2011, 05:31 PM
Larry Centers caught 101 passes as a FB in 1995 for the Cardinals.....realistic that Knowshon would do likewise?...probably not. Fantasy? Anything is possible....


Just saying.....

on edit, i guess i need to start reading the entire page before posting as other posters are pretty astute at pointing out the err of theChamp24's way....

It has happened 3 times in the history of the NFL a RB catching 100+ passes, and none as high as 112.
That
was
my
POINT
No RB ever reached 112 catches, and to show how freakin rare it is to have a RB with a boat load of catches.

errand
08-29-2011, 07:08 PM
If Knowshon has to catch 101 passes then something seriously went wrong with our WR's and TE's.


:Broncos:

I agree..... I would rather have our wide receivers catch them

errand
08-29-2011, 07:10 PM
It has happened 3 times in the history of the NFL a RB catching 100+ passes, and none as high as 112.
That
was
my
POINT
No RB ever reached 112 catches, and to show how freakin rare it is to have a RB with a boat load of catches.

Despite the fact that it happening is rare.... it is possible though correct?

TheChamp24
08-30-2011, 06:26 AM
Despite the fact that it happening is rare.... it is possible though correct?

Its also possible Orton throws for 45 touchdowns and Lloyd catch 22 touchdown passes.
Is it going to happen? Not a chance.

Retire #30!!!
08-30-2011, 12:04 PM
The draft position argument is pointless. Just pretend we drafted Brandon Lloyd with the 12 pick and that Moreno was a free agent pickup.
All better

You can't go back and redraft so why freak out over it

Taco John
08-30-2011, 12:14 PM
The draft position argument is pointless. Just pretend we drafted Brandon Lloyd with the 12 pick and that Moreno was a free agent pickup.
All better

You can't go back and redraft so why freak out over it

I agree that the draft position argument is pointless. However, I would say that the "not a good third down back" argument has a lot of merit.

2KBack
08-30-2011, 01:15 PM
I agree that the draft position argument is pointless. However, I would say that the "not a good third down back" argument has a lot of merit.

I'd say not a good short yardage back has merit, but I think his pass catching skills make him a pretty good 3rd down back