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bronco0608
08-27-2011, 08:49 PM
this is not the first time you've seen this thread, and certainly won't be the last.

gunns
08-27-2011, 08:51 PM
<a href="http://media.photobucket.com/image/facepalm/pmoyacristina/FACEPALM.gif?o=0" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k640/pmoyacristina/FACEPALM.gif" border="0"></a>

bronco militia
08-27-2011, 08:52 PM
this is not the first time you've seen this thread, and certainly won't be the last.

LOL...get your own gig, punk!

Ha!

Broncoman13
08-27-2011, 08:52 PM
this is not the first time you've seen this thread, and certainly won't be the last.

Nice thread... Next time you feel like starting a thread, DON'T!

WABronco
08-27-2011, 08:53 PM
Banned.

Dedhed
08-27-2011, 09:05 PM
Please end this tool.

GreatBronco16
08-27-2011, 09:19 PM
They should let Orton run a few series with the 2nd and 3rd string.

Now that would be funny.Hilarious!

smoke4815162342
08-27-2011, 09:19 PM
this is not the first time you've seen this thread, and certainly won't be the last.

your like that kid from grade school that would copy everyones style and buy clothes that were cool a year ago

bronco militia
08-27-2011, 09:20 PM
tebow is still a work in progess when it comes to a pro-offense.

hopefully he gets 3-4 years on the bench like steve young

epicSocialism4tw
08-27-2011, 09:20 PM
Oops!

bronco0608
08-27-2011, 09:23 PM
Oops!

6/11?

razorwire77
08-27-2011, 09:24 PM
First Orange Mane commandment of 2011-2012

During game day, after each 3 and out, or series where a QB struggles, The Orange Mane will consist of a minimum of at least three:

Orton sucks thread

Followed by a retaliatory Tebow sucks threads.

So it was written.

bowtown
08-27-2011, 09:25 PM
Timmy did not have a good night.

theAPAOps5
08-27-2011, 09:28 PM
You guys are funny.

epicSocialism4tw
08-27-2011, 09:28 PM
Timmy did not have a good night.

He didn't have a bad one either.

He had the type of game you expect from a guy learning the offense.

In typical Tebow fashion, he still managed to come through when it matters.

GreatBronco16
08-27-2011, 09:31 PM
In other news.......Cutler sucked balls tonight. :clown:

epicSocialism4tw
08-27-2011, 09:33 PM
http://thumbs.ifood.tv/files/images/How_to_bake_ham_-_easy_steps_to_baking.jpg

Broncochica
08-27-2011, 09:38 PM
He didn't have a bad one either.

He had the type of game you expect from a guy learning the offense.

In typical Tebow fashion, he still managed to come through when it matters.

LOL Quoted and repped 4 the truth! :curtsey:

randomtask
08-27-2011, 09:50 PM
He didn't have a bad one either.

He had the type of game you expect from a guy learning the offense.

In typical Tebow fashion, he still managed to come through when it matters.

I'd say it was a bad, but clutch night, if that makes any sense...

He came up with the plays needed to win, but he kinda put himself in the position where he needed a last-second drive.

epicSocialism4tw
08-27-2011, 09:53 PM
I'd say it was a bad, but clutch night, if that makes any sense...

He came up with the plays needed to win, but he kinda put himself in the position where he needed a last-second drive.

Kinda like ol' #7 did on occasion...especially when he was young and learning the game.

errand
08-27-2011, 09:54 PM
He didn't have a bad one either.

He had the type of game you expect from a guy learning the offense.

In typical Tebow fashion, he still managed to come through when it matters.

Two FG's...one that came after he was sacked in red zone.....meanwhile Orton has two TD drives and leaves Timmy up 17-3 and he's considered garbage

epicSocialism4tw
08-27-2011, 09:57 PM
Two FG's...one that came after he was sacked in red zone.....meanwhile Orton has two TD drives and leaves Timmy up 17-3 and he's considered garbage

Orton is what he is.

We have three years worth of knowledge to pull from with Orton. Over that time he has repeatedly fallen short when it comes to making plays that win games. So far, Tebow is like the exact opposite. Combine them together and you have the best QB in the league.

All Tebow has to do to surpass Orton is just to tighten up his game. That comes with time and reps. The game is still too fast for him. It slows down with exposure.

randomtask
08-27-2011, 09:58 PM
Kinda like ol' #7 did on occasion...especially when he was young and learning the game.

He's got a long way to go before I mention Tebow in the same sentence as.

John Elway.

epicSocialism4tw
08-27-2011, 10:09 PM
He's got a long way to go before I mention Tebow in the same sentence as.

John Elway.

I saw every year of Elway. Year one was pretty rough at times. Tebow's first three games are actually quite a bit better than Johns.

HAT
08-27-2011, 10:12 PM
In other news.......Cutler sucks balls always. :clown:

Fixed.

Quoydogs
08-27-2011, 10:14 PM
Two FG's...one that came after he was sacked in red zone.....meanwhile Orton has two TD drives and leaves Timmy up 17-3 and he's considered garbage

If you put Orton with the #2's you would not be saying these were bad stats. I'd put money on it.

Mogulseeker
08-27-2011, 10:34 PM
tebow is still a work in progess when it comes to a pro-offense.

hopefully he gets 3-4 years on the bench like steve young

Reason.

Mogulseeker
08-27-2011, 10:35 PM
If you put Orton with the #2's you would not be saying these were bad stats. I'd put money on it.

Ahhhh, now with the excuses.

Orton is, at the moment, a better QB. Deal with it.

SonOfLe-loLang
08-27-2011, 10:37 PM
Lost in all this Orton/Tebow stuff is the fact that the broncos beat the crap out of their last two opponents. Yes Seattle and Buff arent any good, but considering that we were picking 2nd overall last year, im encouraged.

epicSocialism4tw
08-27-2011, 10:41 PM
Lost in all this Orton/Tebow stuff is the fact that the broncos beat the crap out of their last two opponents. Yes Seattle and Buff arent any good, but considering that we were picking 2nd overall last year, im encouraged.

Yeah, the defense looks better.

I want to be encouraged, but I keep remembering that we played Tavaris Jackson and that Harvard guy.

SonOfLe-loLang
08-27-2011, 10:45 PM
Yeah, the defense looks better.

I want to be encouraged, but I keep remembering that we played Tavaris Jackson and that Harvard guy.

And they did NOTHING. We dominated both. We werent just beating them, our pass rush tonight made it seem that seattle was a high school team. Im not claiming they will be tops in the league, but my god am i encouraged

HAT
08-27-2011, 10:47 PM
If you put Orton with the #2's you would not be saying these were bad stats. I'd put money on it.

Orton would rape 2nd team defenses. I don't care how bad Denver's depth at OL is. His pre-snap reads against the opposing 2's would be picking up 8 yards a pop before anybody touched him.

epicSocialism4tw
08-27-2011, 10:58 PM
And they did NOTHING. We dominated both. We werent just beating them, our pass rush tonight made it seem that seattle was a high school team. Im not claiming they will be tops in the league, but my god am i encouraged

Tavaris Jackson isn't fit to be an NFL QB. He's like a more conservative Quincy Carter.

Tebow would start on that team tomorrow if he was traded there.

epicSocialism4tw
08-27-2011, 10:59 PM
Orton would rape 2nd team defenses. I don't care how bad Denver's depth at OL is. His pre-snap reads against the opposing 2's would be picking up 8 yards a pop before anybody touched him.

Or he might fold up like a lawn chair every time the ball is snapped and there are 5 players in his face in 2 seconds.

Orange&BlueMohawk
08-27-2011, 11:01 PM
Look, I am gonna go out on a limb here, but is it me or does the second o-line suck?

Compare the time Orton had to throw and the the time Tebow had to throw.

Orton gets a days worth and Tebow gets nothing.

I say give Tebow all the time in the world like Orton had and see who looks better.

Either way, Tebow didn't get sacked for a ridiculous loss. He evaded guys that were all over him, instead of going fetal. And he actually got a first down on a run instead of coming up short.

Just sayin.

Play2win
08-27-2011, 11:30 PM
I'd say it was a bad, but clutch night, if that makes any sense...

He came up with the plays needed to win, but he kinda put himself in the position where he needed a last-second drive.

Yeah, he came up with some real clutch plays so he didn't lose after being up, what? 17-3...

He just needs more time, right now its pretty obvious he's not there.

epicSocialism4tw
08-27-2011, 11:31 PM
Yeah, he came up with some real clutch plays so he didn't lose after being up, what? 17-3...

He just needs more time, right now its pretty obvious he's not there.

Yeah, its Tebow's fault that our special teams gave away a kick return and that our second/third team defense couldn't keep up with Seattles first stringers.

But what's funny is that I'm sure that most Broncos fans knew that Tebow would drive the ball down the field to win the game with under two minutes left.

Perspective. It is good.

Play2win
08-27-2011, 11:32 PM
If you put Orton with the #2's you would not be saying these were bad stats. I'd put money on it.

It must be fun living in imaginary-land.

Play2win
08-27-2011, 11:32 PM
Lost in all this Orton/Tebow stuff is the fact that the broncos beat the crap out of their last two opponents. Yes Seattle and Buff arent any good, but considering that we were picking 2nd overall last year, im encouraged.

Hear, hear!

Rigs11
08-27-2011, 11:36 PM
Ah but it was ortons fault last year that our defense sucked and our runnIng game was non existant.but tebow is supposed to be above all this remember?he's supposed to excel when everything breaks down and carry the team.which is it tebownites? You guys are using contradicting arguments.

HAT
08-27-2011, 11:39 PM
But what's funny is that I'm sure that most Broncos fans knew that Tebow would drive the ball down the field to win the game with under two minutes left.

Perspective. It is good.



You do know that teams lay down to prevent OT in NFLX right?

Whoever has the ball last inside of 2 minutes in a tie game is guaranteed to score.

epicSocialism4tw
08-27-2011, 11:43 PM
You do know that teams lay down to prevent OT in NFLX right?

Whoever has the ball last inside of 2 minutes in a tie game is guaranteed to score.

The scoreboard says what it says.

If you want to make excuses for one QB and not the other, the joke's on you. Orton doesn't care what you think, or that you advocate for him.

HAT
08-27-2011, 11:52 PM
The scoreboard says what it says.

If you want to make excuses for one QB and not the other, the joke's on you. Orton doesn't care what you think, or that you advocate for him.

Wut?

I'd love for Tebow to start over Orton.

I've been calling for Orton to be traded since last summer but that ship sailed when McD got fired, the lock out happened & Tebow can't read defenses yet.

Buy a clue.

(RIP Mock)

None of that changes the fact that every single QB on an NFL roster would've driven for the GW FG in that spot. Teams will do anything to prevent NFLXOT.

Finger Roll
08-28-2011, 12:17 AM
Look, I am gonna go out on a limb here, but is it me or does the second o-line suck?

Compare the time Orton had to throw and the the time Tebow had to throw.

Orton gets a days worth and Tebow gets nothing.

I say give Tebow all the time in the world like Orton had and see who looks better.

Either way, Tebow didn't get sacked for a ridiculous loss. He evaded guys that were all over him, instead of going fetal. And he actually got a first down on a run instead of coming up short.

Just sayin.

Just about every teams second strings o-line sucks. It's not just the Broncos.

Drek
08-28-2011, 03:35 AM
Just about every teams second strings o-line sucks. It's not just the Broncos.

The difference is that we don't have even one promising looking 2nd string OL I'd feel good about replacing a starter with.

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 06:31 AM
6-11 for 93 yards with crap protection once again is not a bad night. Period.

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 06:32 AM
Just about every teams second strings o-line sucks. It's not just the Broncos.

We have considerably worse backup linemen than the average team.

Rock Chalk
08-28-2011, 06:42 AM
We have considerably worse backup linemen than the average team.

LOL.

No we dont. OUr backup linemen are about on par with everyone else. THEY ARE BACKUPS.

THere are some teams our backup linemen are actually better than their starters. Seattle, Buffalo for example, Dallas' wasn't exactly impressive either (though I think they had some injuries).

That bull**** excuse for Tebow isnt going to fly because its simply not true.

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 06:48 AM
LOL.

No we dont. OUr backup linemen are about on par with everyone else. THEY ARE BACKUPS.

THere are some teams our backup linemen are actually better than their starters. Seattle, Buffalo for example, Dallas' wasn't exactly impressive either (though I think they had some injuries).

That bull**** excuse for Tebow isnt going to fly because its simply not true.

I really have a hard time taking you seriously with the things you post.

If a backup o-line can't provide protection against backup d-lines they are not good, even for backups. It's that simple.

Spider
08-28-2011, 07:22 AM
I'd say it was a bad, but clutch night, if that makes any sense...

He came up with the plays needed to win, but he kinda put himself in the position where he needed a last-second drive.

makes prefect sense , specially after watching Elway for all those years

Spider
08-28-2011, 07:24 AM
I really have a hard time taking you seriously with the things you post.

If a backup o-line can't provide protection against backup d-lines they are not good, even for backups. It's that simple.

Hilarious!....you got a skill for making excuses ...........Look I like Tebow , But the pink pony rider just isnt ready yet , what in the **** is so hard bout admitting that instead of posting this guy sucks ,or that guy sucks so Tebow looked bad.......****ing grow up

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 07:26 AM
Hilarious!....you got a skill for making excuses ...........Look I like Tebow , But the pink pony rider just isnt ready yet , what in the **** is so hard bout admitting that instead of posting this guy sucks ,or that guy sucks so Tebow looked bad.......****ing grow up

Why would I make excuses for Tebow when he didn't have a bad game?

Our backup o-line is crappy, Tebow or no Tebow. Most of the bacups on our team are bad honestly. We have very poor depth at nearly every position.

Spider
08-28-2011, 07:36 AM
Why would I make excuses for Tebow when he didn't have a bad game?

Our backup o-line is crappy, Tebow or no Tebow. Most of the bacups on our team are bad honestly. We have very poor depth at nearly every position.

every team does ....Tebow didnt have a good game .....

CEH
08-28-2011, 07:45 AM
6-11 for 93 yards with crap protection once again is not a bad night. Period.

Didn't Rosaio Dawson and Lance Ball drop two catchable balls. Ball's was inside the 15. I thought his drops from center last night looked a little bit better and he stayed in the pocket a little longer. God if he can work on his footwork like Montana pointed out we might have something long term. Let him sit a year get him some solid coaching.

Bronco_Beerslug
08-28-2011, 07:52 AM
every team does ....Tebow didnt have a good game .....Spider, exactly what kind of game do you think Orton would have behind 2nd and 3rd and 4th team players?

Tebow played well enough behind these guys to win the game.

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 08:04 AM
Didn't Rosaio Dawson and Lance Ball drop two catchable balls. Ball's was inside the 15. I thought his drops from center last night looked a little bit better and he stayed in the pocket a little longer. God if he can work on his footwork like Montana pointed out we might have something long term. Let him sit a year get him some solid coaching.

Yeah there were two drops, but even putting that aside the guy didn't have a bad game. I honestly just don't get what some people expect from the guy. It's bizarre.

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 08:06 AM
every team does ....Tebow didnt have a good game .....

Every team does what?

Bronco Vixen
08-28-2011, 08:12 AM
Ahhhh, now with the excuses.

Orton is, at the moment, a better QB. Deal with it.

It's actually an extremely legitimate point if you're wanting to compare the two performances.

Orton enjoyed max protect and thus had an eternity to throw on most downs - a beautiful thing to see as a Bronco fan btw - thus giving him the chance to work through his reads - and he did so extremely well for the most part. He threw some beautiful passes.
In addition, we were able to establish the running game - again another thing of beauty - and thus the play action was working brilliantly. All of which is very good news for the Broncos.

In contrast, Tebow had a defender in his face within seconds of the snap on almost every play. Not much you can do in those situations except improvise, which he did impressively on most occasions and what makes him so exciting to watch - he flat out makes things happen.

What happens when you reverse the two situations? We are all well aware of what goes down when Orton is under duress or when the play breaks down. He either takes the sack or "scrambles" awkwardly out of the pocket and throws it away. In fairness to him, so do many QBs in the league. I think what most Tebow supporters would love to see is what would happen if Timmy consistently enjoyed enough time to work through his reads and had good run support. Will he still make rookie mistakes? Of course. But my money is that he would improve dramatically and for the number of mistakes he makes, would make just as many, if not more amazing plays. He performs better than most when the play breaks down - something you just can't teach or improve dramatically on IMO if it's not there to begin with. The most important part of that scenario is that we have something/someone very exciting to build on.

So the the REAL question becomes, what percentage of plays break down during an NFL season? Not preseason against the Bills or the Seahawks, but the regular season - particularly on crucial 3rd downs and red zone plays that are often read more successfully by defenses? I would guess the number is substantial.

Orton may be the better QB RIGHT NOW when conditions are ideal (max protection and established running game) but I believe Tebow is better and will always be better when conditions are not so ideal AND has the potential to be just as good if not better when given similar ideal situations over time.

CEH
08-28-2011, 08:16 AM
Yeah there were two drops, but even putting that aside the guy didn't have a bad game. I honestly just don't get what some people expect from the guy. It's bizarre.

I think when you have a 17-3 lead and only put up 6 points and under 9 minutes to go only consume about 4 minutes of clock with 2 drives is not what Fox wanted to see.

Bronco_Beerslug
08-28-2011, 08:25 AM
So the the REAL question becomes, what percentage of plays break down during an NFL season? Not preseason against the Bills or the Seahawks, but the regular season - particularly on crucial 3rd downs and red zone plays that are often read more successfully by defenses? I would guess the number is substantial.

Orton may be the better QB RIGHT NOW when conditions are ideal (max protection and established running game) but I believe Tebow is better and will always be better when conditions are not so ideal AND has the potential to be just as good if not better when given similar ideal situations over time.

Exactly!! Orton throws a pretty pass when he has the time, no doubt. But he is HORRIBLE under pressure!! In the NFL, the QB will be under pressure a significant number of plays every game.
Kyle Orton will never be a SB QB with the Broncos. So why start him, knowing this? I'll tell you why, because Fox wants as many wins as possible regardless of whether or not the Broncos can win a SB with him or not, so he has a better chance to keep his job now. Which equals wasted games/season.

I can tell you this, with the game on line, in red territory with only minutes to play, I will take Tebow over Orton any day.

Play Tebow/Quinn now, find out if they can or can't play and move on.
Makes no sense what so ever to start Orton, who will not be a Bronco in the near future and throw away the season without finding out if Tebow and/or Quinn can play.

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 08:26 AM
I think when you have a 17-3 lead and only put up 6 points and under 9 minutes to go only consume about 4 minutes of clock with 2 drives is not what Fox wanted to see.

I'm sure Fox wanted to see the 2nd string o-line provide some protection for Tebow as well. I'm sure he'd like it if they would open some holes for the run game. Honestly our second string offense is pretty damn terrible.

We've seen what Tebow can do points-wise when playing with players that actually belong in the NFL.

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 08:29 AM
It's actually an extremely legitimate point if you're wanting to compare the two performances.

Orton enjoyed max protect and thus had an eternity to throw on most downs - a beautiful thing to see as a Bronco fan btw - thus giving him the chance to work through his reads - and he did so extremely well for the most part. He threw some beautiful passes.
In addition, we were able to establish the running game - again another thing of beauty - and thus the play action was working brilliantly. All of which is very good news for the Broncos.

In contrast, Tebow had a defender in his face within seconds of the snap on almost every play. Not much you can do in those situations except improvise, which he did impressively on most occasions and what makes him so exciting to watch - he flat out makes things happen.

What happens when you reverse the two situations? We are all well aware of what goes down when Orton is under duress or when the play breaks down. He either takes the sack or "scrambles" awkwardly out of the pocket and throws it away. In fairness to him, so do many QBs in the league. I think what most Tebow supporters would love to see is what would happen if Timmy consistently enjoyed enough time to work through his reads and had good run support. Will he still make rookie mistakes? Of course. But my money is that he would improve dramatically and for the number of mistakes he makes, would make just as many, if not more amazing plays. He performs better than most when the play breaks down - something you just can't teach or improve dramatically on IMO if it's not there to begin with. The most important part of that scenario is that we have something/someone very exciting to build on.

So the the REAL question becomes, what percentage of plays break down during an NFL season? Not preseason against the Bills or the Seahawks, but the regular season - particularly on crucial 3rd downs and red zone plays that are often read more successfully by defenses? I would guess the number is substantial.

Orton may be the better QB RIGHT NOW when conditions are ideal (max protection and established running game) but I believe Tebow is better and will always be better when conditions are not so ideal AND has the potential to be just as good if not better when given similar ideal situations over time.

From time to time we've seen what Orton looks like when facing pressure like Tebow was facing last night and it isn't pretty. Let's just hope none of those backup linemen make it on the field this year, or it's going to get ugly.

FrankieTwoThumbs
08-28-2011, 08:35 AM
How much time does Tim need to get through his one read?

zdoor
08-28-2011, 08:39 AM
Orton's earned the starting role. But, his performance was anything but confidence inspiring. No way should we have gone into the half with only 10 points. We dominated Seattle. This whole argument that all he needs is a strong D and running games is lame. How many QB's would that not be true for? Give me a break... He looks pretty much the same as last year to me, which is average.

Tebow looks like a guy still learning to read defenses with a ton of potential. That's not shocking considering his lack of off season. The game hasn't slowed for him yet, I'm guessing it will and likely pretty soon. He's still struggling to read coverages, shocker. His footwork looks like it's improving to me, he seemed to be getting into his drops faster, IMO. Quinn looks improved and I wouldn't mind if we brought him back next year to compete in camp. Orton is what he is, Brad Johnsons younger brother....

We've already invested in Tebow. At worst he's a guy that can be a very good package player that gets 1st downs and TDs. I think he's got a good chance at being a lot more than that. If this season goes south, if were out of the playoffs, hell if we go into the bye looking at 2 wins or less, put me down for wanting to see Tebow or Quinn but preferably Tebow.

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 08:40 AM
How much time does Tim need to get through his one read?

That's your first post? Really? ::)

bronco0608
08-28-2011, 08:42 AM
Exactly!! Orton throws a pretty pass when he has the time, no doubt. But he is HORRIBLE under pressure!! In the NFL, the QB will be under pressure a significant number of plays every game.


And Tebow is any better at this? If you have watched, his accuracy in the pocket is pathetic, and when he scrambles, his accuracy actually lowers! He can't throw on the run!

I will give you this, though. Tebow, by far, is the best QB when it comes to running like a running back. How about that?

Bronco Yoda
08-28-2011, 08:45 AM
Is Tebow ready to start? No

Neither was Elway when he started.

At some point we're going to have to rip off the band aid and suck it up with Tebow.

The only reason Orton is starting is because of the lockout, a new offense and no OTA's.

Another year of bland suckage. Yeah!!!!!!

Either way we're going to go through suckage. One way we're going forward .... one way we're still spinning in circles.

Bronco_Beerslug
08-28-2011, 08:46 AM
And Tebow is any better at this? If you have watched, I have watched, but you apparently haven't. I'm talking about playing with the first team which includes last year. So far, this year, he hasn't been given the same opportunity or did you overlook that fact?

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 08:49 AM
And Tebow is any better at this? If you have watched, his accuracy in the pocket is pathetic, and when he scrambles, his accuracy actually lowers! He can't throw on the run!

I will give you this, though. Tebow, by far, is the best QB when it comes to running like a running back. How about that?

Tebow is 13-20 for 194 yards and has a passer rating of 96.7 this preseason, and he can't throw?

Have you actually watched the games?

bronco0608
08-28-2011, 08:50 AM
I have watched, but you apparently haven't. I'm talking about playing with the first team which includes last year. So far, this year, he hasn't been given the same opportunity or did you overlook that fact?

He has completed, what, 50% of his passes with the first team? His accuracy is terrible. He is having trouble completing dump offs, much less crossing and timing routes.

He is what he is - a backup.

Bronco_Beerslug
08-28-2011, 08:51 AM
Is Tebow ready to start? No
Neither was Elway when he started.
At some point we're going to have to rip off the band aid and suck it up with Tebow.
The only reason Orton is starting is because of the lockout, a new offense and no OTA's.
Another year of bland suckage. Yeah!!!!!!This is spot on!
You could tell with Elway after a few games that even though we were losing games with him, there was hope for the future.

There is absolutely no hope of ever winning a SB with Orton at QB, so find out if there is with Tebow/Quinn instead of throwing away the season with with one of the worst QBs to ever play the game when he is under pressure (Orton).

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 08:52 AM
I have watched, but you apparently haven't. I'm talking about playing with the first team which includes last year. So far, this year, he hasn't been given the same opportunity or did you overlook that fact?

That's a fact that many with the pro-Orton and anti-Tebow people are very careful to overlook. We're supposed to pretend that it's a level playing field and that Orton is just so much better, without noticing the glaring disparity in supporting play. Did you not get the memo?

AlphaSeirra
08-28-2011, 08:52 AM
I saw every year of Elway. Year one was pretty rough at times. Tebow's first three games are actually quite a bit better than Johns.

What he said....

"It could have been the chef," Fox said of the unnamed source. "He sees the players every day." (Tebow basher :clown:'s)

=======================

Denver QB's after 3 preseason games:
(Orton :curtsey: with 1st Team, Tebow :strong: with backups & scrubs)

1. Orton 28 of 42, 66.7% for 408 yds, 9.7 yds/att, (9.7 yds/comp), Long 42 yds, Passer Rating 104.1

Rushing - 1 for 4 yds

2. Tebow 13 of 20, 65.0% for 194 yds, 9.7 yds/att, (14.3 yds/comp), Long 43 yds, Passer Rating 96.7

>> Rushing 7 for 47 yds, 6.7 ypc.
(next closest Bronco's are Moreno - 4.9 ypc, & Johnson 4.5 ypc)

3. Quinn 18 of 30, 60.0% for 250 yds, 8.3 yds/att, (13.3 yds/comp), Long 26 yds, Passer Rating 95.1

Rushing - NADA

Orton is finally slightly ahead in the stats,
but we have yet to see Tebow practice and play with the 1st team,
or Orton practice and play with the backups and scrubs..... :gus:

===============

2011 Preseason Stats so far:

Tebow 13 of 20, 65.0% for 194 yds, 9.7 yds/att, Long 43 yds, PER 96.7 + 6.7 ypc

Bradford 24 of 43, 55.8% for 278 yds, 6.5 yds/att, PER 87.2 + 9.0 ypc

Cutler 26 of 43, 60.5% for 341 yds, 7.9 yds/att, (13.1 yds/comp), PER 75.8

Clausen 17 of 19, 58.6%, for 173 yds, 5.9 yds/att, 72.9 PER, + 3.3 ypc

Newton 21 of 52, 40.4%, for 275 yds, 5.3 yds/att, PER 57.8, + 8.4 ypc

M.Vick 19 of 36, 52.8%, for 219 yds, 6.0 yds/att, Long ?? PER 45.9 + 4.5 ypc

=======================

2011 Preseason Ranking By Completion Percentage (all QB's):

1. A.Rodgers 79.1

2. C.Whitehurst 70.2

3. P.Rivers 68.9

t4. M.Schaub 66.7

t4. K.Orton 66.7 (1st team only)

6. T.Tebow 65.0 (with backups & scrubs in practice & games)

7. C.Henne 64.4

8. R.Grossman 64.2

9. R.Mallet 63.8

10. C.McCoy 60.9

11. J.Cutler 60.5 (0-TD - 1-Int)

Common (media-moron) Knowledge > Tebow's an Inaccurate Passer, WTF?

However,,, everybody already knows that Tim has a weak, inaccurate arm, and a to slow delivery,,, right???

=======================

Favorite Media-Moron Whine, Tebow was taken WAY to high in the Draft.....
Well, let's just take a little closer look at that moronic claim, shall we?

#1/25 Tim Tebow 65.0% - 96.7 PER

#1/22 Mighty Quinn 60.0% -- 95.1 PER

#1/1 Pick Bradford 55.3% - 86.8 PER (lost to Tebow's Gators in the BCS-NC)

#1/1 Vince Young 68.0% - 64.9 PER

#1/1 Dog-man Vick 52.8% - 45.9 PER

#1/1 Scam Newton 40.4% - 58.4 PER

Totally Ignorant Media Morons can just be sooo cute,,,
especially that NFL-Network moron/hack, clueless game announcer. thwack

================

#1/25 Pick Tebow 65.0% - 96.7 PER (#23 Overall NFL QB in Comp.%)

#1/22 Mighty Quinn 60.0% -- 95.1 PER

#1/1 Pick Bradford 55.8% - 87.2 PER

#1/1 Dog-man Vick 52.8% - 45.9 PER

#1/1 Scam Newton 40.4% - 57.8 PER

=================

Brilliant Logic and Analysis by both the Media-Morons and/or the NFL Owners & Staffs:

1. Tebow was taken way to high in the draft,,, and the stats show that,,, (NOT)? :loopy:

2. Fox was fired by the Panthers for taking da Pickle, who went 3 TD's to 9 Ints before getting benched. (obviously knows QB's)

(note, the Panthers new HBC now has Scam 57.8 PER starting ahead of da Pickle 72.9 PER,,, obviously another QB genius)

3. McD gets fired for trading Cutler 75.8 PER, and drafting Tebow 96.7 PER,,, what a big mistake that was, huh? :nutkick

4. Now the Foxfired HBC that drafted and started da Pickle decides to start Orton over Tebow, because Orton is slightly better using the 1st Team, than Tebow is using the backups & scrubs. :kubiak:

5. Maybe 'some of us fans' should apply for a job in the NFL,,, it pays pretty well I hear, and it looks to me like you don't have to be all that smart about things.....^5

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 08:54 AM
He has completed, what, 50% of his passes with the first team? His accuracy is terrible. He is having trouble completing dump offs, much less crossing and timing routes.

He is what he is - a backup.

You are what you are - a douche-nozzle not willing to give a young, developing QB a chance.

Bronco Vixen
08-28-2011, 08:54 AM
And Tebow is any better at this? If you have watched, his accuracy in the pocket is pathetic, and when he scrambles, his accuracy actually lowers! He can't throw on the run!
?

Yea, good take. Minute 1:15: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nS7RBgm0ak

bronco0608
08-28-2011, 08:57 AM
Yea, good take. Minute 1:15: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nS7RBgm0ak

Oh my god, he completed A PASS on the run! That one pass resolves everything.

Come on.

bronco0608
08-28-2011, 08:57 AM
You are what you are - a douche-nozzle not willing to give a young, developing QB a chance.

Why is he better than Bradlee Van Pelt? Both were gamers.

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 08:58 AM
Oh my god, he completed A PASS on the run! That one pass resolves everything.

Come on.

Are you now saying Tebow can't pass on the move? Jesus you are an imbecile...

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 08:59 AM
Why is he better than Bradlee Van Pelt? Both were gamers.

I think you may well be the cosmic opposite of MacGruder. Just as stupid but in reverse...

bronco0608
08-28-2011, 09:01 AM
I think you may well be the cosmic opposite of MacGruder. Just as stupid but in reverse...

I'm asking, is he any better than Bradlee Van Pelt? If so, how?

mustangtoby
08-28-2011, 09:02 AM
this thread stinks

Bronco Vixen
08-28-2011, 09:04 AM
Oh my god, he completed A PASS on the run! That one pass resolves everything.

Come on.

It resolves that your statement: He can't throw on the run! is itself, inaccurate.

bronco0608
08-28-2011, 09:05 AM
It resolves that your statement: is itself, inaccurate.

So, if Adam Weber completes a pass, he is a starting caliber QB?

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 09:05 AM
I'm asking, is he any better than Bradlee Van Pelt? If so, how?

In every possible way. And the fact that you don't realize it makes you look like a complete tard. Or a troll. Whichever you prefer...

Broncos4Life
08-28-2011, 09:06 AM
Tebow is 13-20 for 194 yards and has a passer rating of 96.7 this preseason, and he can't throw?

Have you actually watched the games?

Apparently he hasn't. Maybe if he takes his mouth off Orton he can see that Denver will never get anything but mediocrity with him, but great play between the 20's. Lets see how he plays against teams like NY, GB, CHI, and SD twice.

I don't even want to make this about Tebow. Just look what we have with Orton. Teams were just lined up and ready to trade for this game manager, were'nt they....

Sorry, but color me not impressed with his play against a bad SEA team or BUF....

Bronco_Beerslug
08-28-2011, 09:06 AM
He has completed, what, 50% of his passes with the first team? His accuracy is terrible. He is having trouble completing dump offs, much less crossing and timing routes.

He is what he is - a backup.50% is NOT terrible. For a rookie thrown into the the middle of the season it actually is considered good.
Ignorance is not a virtue.

Broncos4Life
08-28-2011, 09:07 AM
Why is he better than Bradlee Van Pelt? Both were gamers.

Just shoot me!

bronco0608
08-28-2011, 09:08 AM
50% is NOT terrible.

Really? Because in reality, it is terrible.

bronco0608
08-28-2011, 09:08 AM
Just shoot me!

Seriously, why is he better than BVP?

Bronco Vixen
08-28-2011, 09:09 AM
So, if Adam Weber completes a pass, he is a starting caliber QB?

The point was not whether or not one can complete a pass. You stated that Tebow "cannot throw on the run." I just found it ironic that his first play under center last night was a beautifully accurate pass thrown on the run, after a defender busted through the line immediately disrupting the play.

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 09:09 AM
So, if Adam Weber completes a pass, he is a starting caliber QB?

http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/9f5/ab6/fd2/resized/trollin-meme-generator-when-at-first-you-dont-succeed-start-the-trollin-b099bf.jpg?1305587453.jpg

Miss I.
08-28-2011, 09:09 AM
Yea, good take. Minute 1:15: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nS7RBgm0ak

Hmm, good video. Just confused as to why a Video dedication to Eric Decker was posted for Tebow Stinks. Or were there other people in the video? I didn't notice....;D

Just kidding, um, pretty much. :curtsey:

Cito Pelon
08-28-2011, 09:09 AM
I'm asking, is he any better than Bradlee Van Pelt? If so, how?

You're really not making very good points in this thread, 0608. Tebow doesn't stink, he's made some very nice throws in his short career.

As an aside, to placate you, I think Fox was getting quite irritated with Tebow this game, especially when Tebow was pestering him while Fox was trying to make a decision about that 3rd down play where Willis tried to stretch out for the first, the one where Fox challenged the spot.

Bronco_Beerslug
08-28-2011, 09:10 AM
Really? Because in reality, it is terrible.

Were you hit in the head as a child?

AlphaSeirra
08-28-2011, 09:11 AM
And Tebow is any better at this? If you have watched, his accuracy in the pocket is pathetic, and when he scrambles, his accuracy actually lowers! He can't throw on the run!

I will give you this, though. Tebow, by far, is the best QB when it comes to running like a running back. How about that?

Last season, in 13 starter games, the Orton led Broncos failed to score 21 pts in 9 of the 13 games, and averaged just 20 pts/gm.

Last season, in 3 starter games, the Tebow led Broncos never failed to score at least 21 pts and averaged 25 pts/gm.

Orton will make some NFL team a very good backup QB for may years.... :wave:

"He can't throw on the run!"
Amazing, since he still led ALL 2010 rookie QB in PER.
He did that while leading the Broncos with 6 rushing TD's and a 5.3 ypc average. :sunshine:

bronco0608
08-28-2011, 09:11 AM
In every possible way. And the fact that you don't realize it makes you look like a complete tard. Or a troll. Whichever you prefer...

That's not really an answer. The same issues that dogged Van Pelt (accuracy, throwing motion, overall feel for the position) coming out of college are the same with Tebow. The only difference I see is that Van Pelt likes the bottle and the bitches a lot more than Tebow.

Bronco Vixen
08-28-2011, 09:13 AM
Hmm, good video. Just confused as to why a Video dedication to Eric Decker was posted for Tebow Stinks. Or were there other people in the video? I didn't notice....;D

Just kidding, um, pretty much. :curtsey:

Hey, any excuse to post that loveliness, right?

bronco0608
08-28-2011, 09:16 AM
“I’ve covered pro football more than 23 years, and I’ve never seen a bigger disconnect between what a majority of fans want and what is actually happening on the field with the local NFL team,” wrote Denver Post beat writer Jeff Legwold. “Tebow hasn’t been the Broncos’ best quarterback at training camp. He’s behind veteran Kyle Orton, and the gap isn’t small.”


Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/sports/football/2011-08-03/story/espn-football-analyst-merril-hoge-rips-tim-tebow#ixzz1WLCWPHYG

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 09:16 AM
That's not really an answer. The same issues that dogged Van Pelt (accuracy, throwing motion, overall feel for the position) coming out of college are the same with Tebow. The only difference I see is that Van Pelt likes the bottle and the b****es a lot more than Tebow.

I said it once already. Tebow is better at everything. You are simply making yourself look idiotic with this nonsense.

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 09:17 AM
“I’ve covered pro football more than 23 years, and I’ve never seen a bigger disconnect between what a majority of fans want and what is actually happening on the field with the local NFL team,” wrote Denver Post beat writer Jeff Legwold. “Tebow hasn’t been the Broncos’ best quarterback at training camp. He’s behind veteran Kyle Orton, and the gap isn’t small.”


Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/sports/football/2011-08-03/story/espn-football-analyst-merril-hoge-rips-tim-tebow#ixzz1WLCWPHYG

Cool story

bronco0608
08-28-2011, 09:17 AM
Were you hit in the head as a child?

50% is good? Who knew? Are we talking Pee-Wee league or NFL?

randomtask
08-28-2011, 09:18 AM
Seriously, why is he better than BVP?

Well, he is more naturally accurate than BVP, especially on deep throws. (Yes, he is)

He has a stronger arm than BVP.

He has better pocket awareness than BVP.

He is a faster, stronger and more decisive runner than BVP.

He has a stronger work ethic than BVP.

There's probably a few things I'm forgetting, but that's a good start.

gunns
08-28-2011, 09:18 AM
Kinda like ol' #7 did on occasion...especially when he was young and learning the game.

<a href="http://media.photobucket.com/image/facepalm/THE_Fishslayer/Doublefacepalm.jpg?o=7" target="_blank"><img src="http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn215/THE_Fishslayer/Doublefacepalm.jpg" border="0"></a>


There is no comparison between Elway and Tebow, young, old, in between. Just ****ing clueless.

bronco0608
08-28-2011, 09:18 AM
I said it once already. Tebow is better at everything. You are simply making yourself look idiotic with this nonsense.

Once again, quit acting like a child with the insults and answer the question. How is Tebow any better than BVP?

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 09:19 AM
Well, he is more naturally accurate than BVP, especially on deep throws. (Yes, he is)

He has a stronger arm than BVP.

He has better pocket awareness than BVP.

He is a faster, stronger and more decisive runner than BVP.

He has a stronger work ethic than BVP.

There's probably a few things I'm forgetting, but that's a good start.

Or you could just say "everything". Much simpler. ;)

DenverBrit
08-28-2011, 09:19 AM
Why would I make excuses for Tebow when he didn't have a bad game?

Our backup o-line is crappy, Tebow or no Tebow. Most of the bacups on our team are bad honestly. We have very poor depth at nearly every position.

Compared to Quinn, who played with the same 'bad' backups, Tebow looked lost and played like a 3rd string QB. Which he is.

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 09:20 AM
Once again, quit acting like a child with the insults and answer the question. How is Tebow any better than BVP?

What is so hard to understand about the word "everything"?

Play2win
08-28-2011, 09:21 AM
Maybe Tebow needs to spend a few years in the Arena Football League... :~ohyah!:

Play2win
08-28-2011, 09:22 AM
Compared to Quinn, who played with the same 'bad' backups, Tebow looked lost and played like a 3rd string QB. Which he is.

exactly. Tebow looks like Quinn did last year.

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 09:23 AM
Compared to Quinn, who played with the same 'bad' backups, Tebow looked lost and a 3rd string QB. Which he is.

Quinn actually got decent protection much of the time. Not sure why they blocked better for him, but the difference was quite noticeable.

And anyway, I'm still not sure what you people are seeing to say things like "he looked lost". The guy has played quite well overall. 13-20 for 194 yards and a 96.7 passer rating is not what you see from a QB who looks "lost".

bronco0608
08-28-2011, 09:23 AM
Who are we talking about here, BVP or Tebow? Guess

Positives: Tough signal-caller that must iron out the rough edges to his game. Quickly sets in the pocket with solid footwork, remains poised and shows good judgment. Drives the deep pass downfield, laying the ball out in front of receivers and letting them run to the pass. Escapes the rush and makes the throw on the move. Tough and has a linebacker's mentality, especially carrying the ball.

Final Point: From an athletic point of view, player x has all the intangibles one wants for an NFL quarterback. His size, toughness and ability to make all the throws catches your eye on film. Yet equally apparent is a lack of pocket patience and accuracy. Must learn to become a passer rather than just a thrower but a solid developmental prospect that could yield positive long-term gains.

bronco0608
08-28-2011, 09:24 AM
Well, he is more naturally accurate than BVP, especially on deep throws. (Yes, he is)

He has a stronger arm than BVP.

He has better pocket awareness than BVP.

He is a faster, stronger and more decisive runner than BVP.

He has a stronger work ethic than BVP.

There's probably a few things I'm forgetting, but that's a good start.

See post 110. Sorry, you are wrong.

gunns
08-28-2011, 09:24 AM
We did it with Griese, Plummer and now Tebow. Let the boy be bad or good but damn, don't make excuses for him. Yes, a QB needs a good O line. Not all have them and they have to improvise. People say Tebow is great at improvising. Then do it. But stop making excuses.

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 09:24 AM
exactly. Tebow looks like Quinn did last year.

Do you people actually watch the games? Or are we simply talking about some pretend Broncos team that only exists in your heads?

Miss I.
08-28-2011, 09:26 AM
Hey, any excuse to post that loveliness, right?

Probably means we should start a new thread dedicated to him. Perhaps an Eric Decker Mojo thread. But for now I will leave it alone. Let you guys get back to discussing the merits of Tebow and the failings of Orton.

Personally, here's my take on both (and take it for what it's worth).
1. Tebow is not ready to be a starter YET on the 1st string by himself. Cutler was further along and he got to start sooner, but even that I thought was a mistake. I like that they are taking some more time with him, ideally I hope they develop him to be our starter.
2. Orton is doing a good job and I think he's improved somewhat with more targets to throw to and what appears to be a stronger running game. Is he the long term answer? I don't know, but I don't know if Tebow is either.
3. Tebow did not win the game. I am really tired of hearing that. He was handed a 17-3 score by our first team and largely our special teams screwed that up, but some of his plays were not good. The highlight real posted showed his good, but he made some fairly poor judgement calls too, which is to be expected both because of his lack of experience and because the 2nd stringers he had would not be as strong as the 1st string and yes he was playing against Seattle's 1st string putting him in a hole. He held his own to the degree he could with his supporting personnel. He still isn't ready to be starter. He may be eventually. I hope he gets there, but I also hope we win and I will never ever cut down Orton as a way to support Tebow. We can use them both.

Anyway, that's all. I got to go finish watching the Bears game. I think Cutler gets sacked and I really really want to see that. ;D

Dedhed
08-28-2011, 09:26 AM
I think when you have a 17-3 lead and only put up 6 points and under 9 minutes to go only consume about 4 minutes of clock with 2 drives is not what Fox wanted to see.

Do you think at 10-3 and given the ball at the opponents 45 and at your own 40 on back to back possessions is what Fox wanted to see, or do you think that's why he called the offense "a little disappointing at the end of the first half?

gunns
08-28-2011, 09:26 AM
Quinn actually got decent protection much of the time. Not sure why they blocked better for him, but the difference was quite noticeable.

And anyway, I'm still not sure what you people are seeing to say things like "he looked lost". The guy has played quite well overall. 13-20 for 194 yards and a 96.7 passer rating is not what you see from a QB who looks "lost".

Oh those stats, they do tell the whole story, don't they. No they don't. I think Tebow may be improving, actually it's hard to tell but to say Quinn got decent protection while using the same line as an excuse for Tebow is idiotic. No wonder people don't buy your arguments.

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 09:27 AM
We did it with Griese, Plummer and now Tebow. Let the boy be bad or good but damn, don't make excuses for him. Yes, a QB needs a good O line. Not all have them and they have to improvise. People say Tebow is great at improvising. Then do it. But stop making excuses.

Again, 13-20 for 194 yards and a 96.7 QB rating doesn't need excuses.

Pointing out that his blocking has been poor is only fair. Or are the "Orton had no run game or protection last year" arguments out as well?

Broncos4Life
08-28-2011, 09:29 AM
Jeff Legwold is not someone I'd place my faith in.

Van Pelt on the other hand, while very athletic, never made the throws Tebow did, or inspired any confidence around him. Pelt wouldn't have made half of the throws that tebow has in the same time.

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 09:30 AM
Oh those stats, they do tell the whole story, don't they. No they don't. I think Tebow may be improving, actually it's hard to tell but to say Quinn got decent protection while using the same line as an excuse for Tebow is idiotic. No wonder people don't buy your arguments.

They don't tell the whole story, but they certainly prove that he isn't playing poorly like many claim.

It's odd really, those of us who dislike Orton are accused of being to hard on the guy (despite being a seven year vet), while you guys wail on Tebow (a 2nd year player) who has yet to play genuinely bad this preseason.

Oh and I'm not sure what you mean on the Quinn/Tebow protection comment. The protection was better for Quinn than it's been for Tebow. That happens. Teams and individual units have up and down games. The game against Buffalo was the 2nd string o-line's best game so far this preseason. It's a pretty simple concept.

Cito Pelon
08-28-2011, 09:32 AM
Compared to Quinn, who played with the same 'bad' backups, Tebow looked lost and played like a 3rd string QB. Which he is.

Ouch. That would bruise a normal person, but . . . . . . .

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 09:36 AM
50% is good?

It's pretty standard for a rookie QB's first three starts. You'd know that if you weren't a troll.

OrangeSe7en
08-28-2011, 09:40 AM
It's pretty standard for a rookie QB's first three starts. You'd know that if you weren't a troll.

The QB rating was over 80 and only 5 pts less than Orton who was a veteran having a career year. An 80 QB rating for a rookie under those circumstances is awesome, 50% or not.

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 09:44 AM
The QB rating was over 80 and only 5 pts less than Orton who was a veteran having a career year. An 80 QB rating for a rookie under those circumstances is awesome, 50% or not.

Agreed. I was only referring to his completion percentage though.

And remember that Tebow's stats are misleading. He can't play QB. He should become a FB. ::)

OrangeSe7en
08-28-2011, 09:47 AM
Agreed. I was only referring to his completion percentage though.

And remember that Tebow's stats are misleading. He can't play QB. He should become a FB. ::)

Yeah, all the badmouthing and piling on isn't supported by the data. It's like they're recycling the same arguments from the 2010 offseason. Apparently people arent aware that he has actually played and performed well. The data doesnt support what anyone is saying. And if Tebow is a QB who can get an 80 QB Rating as a rookie with shortcomings, what does that say about upside? And the QB rating doesnt even take into account his ability to run.

BTW, it's kind of pathetic when people say "Orton had no running game"...first of all, Orton doesn't "have" anything. But moreso, Tebow brings his own running game. It's kind of sad that people complain about a lack of a running game with Orton when Tebow himself, in many cases, removes that problem.

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 09:52 AM
Yeah, all the badmouthing and piling on isn't supported by the data. It's like they're recycling the same arguments from the 2010 offseason. Apparently people arent aware that he has actually played and performed well. The data doesnt support what anyone is saying. And if Tebow is a QB who can get an 80 QB Rating as a rookie with shortcomings, what does that say about upside? And the QB rating doesnt even take into account his ability to run.

It's just a particularly perverse form of group think going on. Those of us who actually remember what happened with Tebow last season and understand what we saw, just aren't buying into the meme of him not being ready or Orton being our best chance at winning. Unfortunately, there are many fans that have the memories of gnats and the suggestibility of hungry dogs, and to them Orton > Tebow right now. The rest of us know better.

OrangeSe7en
08-28-2011, 10:07 AM
It's just a particularly perverse form of group think going on. Those of us who actually remember what happened with Tebow last season and understand what we saw, just aren't buying into the meme of him not being ready or Orton being our best chance at winning. Unfortunately, there are many fans that have the memories of gnats and the suggestibility of hungry dogs, and to them Orton > Tebow right now. The rest of us know better.

I just think there are a lot of people who don't have the balls to think for themselves. So they are either easily influenced by an agenda driven media or they align themselves with coaches thinking that if they align themselves with coaches, they can't be wrong.

It's kind of sad.

Bronco_Beerslug
08-28-2011, 10:17 AM
50% is good? Who knew? Are we talking Pee-Wee league or NFL?

Don't be an idiot, or is that possible?

Who would you like to compare him to, someone like Elway? Where John's first 11 games he completed 47% of his passes for 7 TDs and 14 INTs, 1 rushing TD and sacked 28 times?

Or Michael Vick's first 8 games where he complete 44% of his passes for 2 TDs and 3 INTs?

Or P. Manning's first 3 games where he completed 54% of his passes for 2 TDs and 8 INTs?

Or Tom Brady's first 3 games where he completed 52% of his passes for 0 TDs and 0 INTs?

Like I told you earlier, ignorance is not a virtue.

Gort
08-28-2011, 10:23 AM
Lost in all this Orton/Tebow stuff is the fact that the broncos beat the crap out of their last two opponents. Yes Seattle and Buff arent any good, but considering that we were picking 2nd overall last year, im encouraged.

in pre-season game #3 last year, the Broncos opened up a can of whoop ass on the Steelers. the Steelers ended up in the superbowl and the Broncos ended up 4-12. funny how that works out, huh?

http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=300829007

pre-season success is not a predictor of regular season success.

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 10:25 AM
pre-season success is not a predictor of regular season success.

A fact that is forgotten by far too many every year.

Gort
08-28-2011, 10:30 AM
I'm asking, is he any better than Bradlee Van Pelt? If so, how?

more raw talent

DenverBrit
08-28-2011, 10:41 AM
Quinn actually got decent protection much of the time. Not sure why they blocked better for him, but the difference was quite noticeable.

And anyway, I'm still not sure what you people are seeing to say things like "he looked lost". The guy has played quite well overall. 13-20 for 194 yards and a 96.7 passer rating is not what you see from a QB who looks "lost".

When you don't try and hang on to the ball too long it's funny how the protection looks better.
Tebow may become a decent QB, but the calls for him to start instead of Orton, well that's just silly.
Nothing wrong with letting him sit until he learns how to read a defense.

Rigs11
08-28-2011, 10:57 AM
When you don't try and hang on to the ball too long it's funny how the protection looks better.
Tebow may become a decent QB, but the calls for him to start instead of Orton, well that's just silly.
Nothing wrong with letting him sit until he learns how to read a defense.

This.defenses are not scared of tebow throwing the ball,they know that his reads are lousy,and that he will tuck the ball and take off.of course they are going to bring pressure,which will make the 2nd string oline look worse than it is.I dontt remember Quinn having problems with the 2nd stringers last week.

Gort
08-28-2011, 11:16 AM
This.defenses are not scared of tebow throwing the ball,they know that his reads are lousy,and that he will tuck the ball and take off.of course they are going to bring pressure,which will make the 2nd string oline look worse than it is.I dontt remember Quinn having problems with the 2nd stringers last week.

who says his reads are lousy? some dweeb writer at the Denver Post??

the reality is that Tebow doesn't fit into Fox's conventional, traditional offense and Tebow is struggling to adapt to this style, which completely omits his strengths as an improvisational QB. it was pretty clear last night, except on 1 designed running play, Tebow was under orders to NOT run if he couldn't find an open receiver. so Tebow was playing without his main weapon.

that's fine for a team built around Orton's skillset. if Tebow as a backup or 3rd stringer is going to have to run the same offense as Orton, then he should learn to do things like Orton. for example, falling down and taking a sack instead of scrambling, etc.

however, Fox (and McCoy) are missing out on the chance to be creative on offense because they are constraining Tebow. every team will commit a "spy" to Tebow when he's in the game. that essentially subtracts 1 player from the defense. that's what Tebow adds to a gameplan. design plays and formations that exploit that sort of defensive liability. when defenses adjust by removing the "spy" aspect, then you give Tebow a chance to run.

i know the new regime is not ready to do that yet (or ever?), but this is the sort of thing that made Randall Cunningham (in his prime) so difficult to contain. you design you defense to stop his scrambling, and you open up his passing game. drop another man back into coverage, and you open up his scrambling/running game.

Inkana7
08-28-2011, 11:32 AM
I see McGruder has rubbed off on a lot of you.

Gort
08-28-2011, 11:41 AM
I see McGruder has rubbed off on a lot of you.

no, but i don't like the hyperbole thrown around as facts by the people with an agenda against Tebow.

we've seen him start in the NFL. we've seen him win in the NFL. but to believe the nonsense thrown around against him as if it were fact, you'd think Tebow never even saw a football in his life until 2 weeks ago, couldn't hit the side of a barn with football, and has no idea what to do with a football once he takes the snap.

if people want to say he's not ready for Fox's offense, then stick to the facts.

but making up **** just as a way to dismiss the guy? that's the kind of stuff that should be left on the Raiders and Sparklers forums.

Play2win
08-28-2011, 11:44 AM
Using the word "Hyperbole" on the interwebz is hyperbole.

peacepipe
08-28-2011, 12:02 PM
no, but i don't like the hyperbole thrown around as facts by the people with an agenda against Tebow.

we've seen him start in the NFL. we've seen him win in the NFL. but to believe the nonsense thrown around against him as if it were fact, you'd think Tebow never even saw a football in his life until 2 weeks ago, couldn't hit the side of a barn with football, and has no idea what to do with a football once he takes the snap.

if people want to say he's not ready for Fox's offense, then stick to the facts.

but making up **** just as a way to dismiss the guy? that's the kind of stuff that should be left on the Raiders and Sparklers forums.

that door swings both ways.

Cito Pelon
08-28-2011, 12:07 PM
who says his reads are lousy? some dweeb writer at the Denver Post??

the reality is that Tebow doesn't fit into Fox's conventional, traditional offense and Tebow is struggling to adapt to this style, which completely omits his strengths as an improvisational QB. it was pretty clear last night, except on 1 designed running play, Tebow was under orders to NOT run if he couldn't find an open receiver. so Tebow was playing without his main weapon.

that's fine for a team built around Orton's skillset. if Tebow as a backup or 3rd stringer is going to have to run the same offense as Orton, then he should learn to do things like Orton. for example, falling down and taking a sack instead of scrambling, etc.

however, Fox (and McCoy) are missing out on the chance to be creative on offense because they are constraining Tebow. every team will commit a "spy" to Tebow when he's in the game. that essentially subtracts 1 player from the defense. that's what Tebow adds to a gameplan. design plays and formations that exploit that sort of defensive liability. when defenses adjust by removing the "spy" aspect, then you give Tebow a chance to run.

i know the new regime is not ready to do that yet (or ever?), but this is the sort of thing that made Randall Cunningham (in his prime) so difficult to contain. you design you defense to stop his scrambling, and you open up his passing game. drop another man back into coverage, and you open up his scrambling/running game.

I guess that's possible, Galt. Like Shanny did with Jake in 2005? The rollout passing game? It has possibilities, but has limitations also.

Bronx33
08-28-2011, 12:24 PM
Is it just me or does tebow seem to always have the overwhelming urge to run up field limiting his time to look for receivers? happy feet seems to be big problem for him.

Bronx33
08-28-2011, 12:25 PM
I see McGruder has rubbed off on a lot of you.


Where is that shyt fairy anyways?

db56
08-28-2011, 12:37 PM
who says his reads are lousy? some dweeb writer at the Denver Post??

the reality is that Tebow doesn't fit into Fox's conventional, traditional offense and Tebow is struggling to adapt to this style, which completely omits his strengths as an improvisational QB. it was pretty clear last night, except on 1 designed running play, Tebow was under orders to NOT run if he couldn't find an open receiver. so Tebow was playing without his main weapon.

that's fine for a team built around Orton's skillset. if Tebow as a backup or 3rd stringer is going to have to run the same offense as Orton, then he should learn to do things like Orton. for example, falling down and taking a sack instead of scrambling, etc.

however, Fox (and McCoy) are missing out on the chance to be creative on offense because they are constraining Tebow. every team will commit a "spy" to Tebow when he's in the game. that essentially subtracts 1 player from the defense. that's what Tebow adds to a gameplan. design plays and formations that exploit that sort of defensive liability. when defenses adjust by removing the "spy" aspect, then you give Tebow a chance to run.

i know the new regime is not ready to do that yet (or ever?), but this is the sort of thing that made Randall Cunningham (in his prime) so difficult to contain. you design you defense to stop his scrambling, and you open up his passing game. drop another man back into coverage, and you open up his scrambling/running game.

Sounds great in principle, but name 1 team that one a Super Bowl running this kind of offense.

peacepipe
08-28-2011, 12:44 PM
Is it just me or does tebow seem to always have the overwhelming urge to run up field limiting his time to look for receivers? happy feet seems to be big problem for him.it's not just you.

Rigs11
08-28-2011, 01:06 PM
who says his reads are lousy? some dweeb writer at the Denver Post??

the reality is that Tebow doesn't fit into Fox's conventional, traditional offense and Tebow is struggling to adapt to this style, which completely omits his strengths as an improvisational QB. it was pretty clear last night, except on 1 designed running play, Tebow was under orders to NOT run if he couldn't find an open receiver. so Tebow was playing without his main weapon.

that's fine for a team built around Orton's skillset. if Tebow as a backup or 3rd stringer is going to have to run the same offense as Orton, then he should learn to do things like Orton. for example, falling down and taking a sack instead of scrambling, etc.

however, Fox (and McCoy) are missing out on the chance to be creative on offense because they are constraining Tebow. every team will commit a "spy" to Tebow when he's in the game. that essentially subtracts 1 player from the defense. that's what Tebow adds to a gameplan. design plays and formations that exploit that sort of defensive liability. when defenses adjust by removing the "spy" aspect, then you give Tebow a chance to run.

i know the new regime is not ready to do that yet (or ever?), but this is the sort of thing that made Randall Cunningham (in his prime) so difficult to contain. you design you defense to stop his scrambling, and you open up his passing game. drop another man back into coverage, and you open up his scrambling/running game.
By who?by some fans,scouts,analysts,and coaches.you tebow supporters are in the minority.I'd much rather trust those guys than you.it's like you guys think it's some sort of conspiracy.the dude is not ready.

gunns
08-28-2011, 02:39 PM
Is it just me or does tebow seem to always have the overwhelming urge to run up field limiting his time to look for receivers? happy feet seems to be big problem for him.

I think he's aware of his inability to read defenses unlike some here and takes off. Something I like about Tebow, trying to make a play out of nothing, but it doesn't yet make an NFL QB. Makes you wonder why these fiercely loyal Tebownites have to make something appear to be much more than what it really is. They are as guilty of not letting the kid learn the job as those that don't like Tebow. Realism has totally flown out the door with them. Reminds me of when people on this board were trying to compare Plummers stats with Elways during a "certain" time period. It's either there or it's not, and right now it's not.

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 05:11 PM
When you don't try and hang on to the ball too long it's funny how the protection looks better.
Tebow may become a decent QB, but the calls for him to start instead of Orton, well that's just silly.
Nothing wrong with letting him sit until he learns how to read a defense.

So now it's him holding the ball too long? Wow you people are full of ****.

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 05:13 PM
Sounds great in principle, but name 1 team that one a Super Bowl running this kind of offense.

Sound logic. If something hasn't been done before, it can't be done. Brilliant.

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 05:15 PM
I think he's aware of his inability to read defenses unlike some here and takes off. Something I like about Tebow, trying to make a play out of nothing, but it doesn't yet make an NFL QB. Makes you wonder why these fiercely loyal Tebownites have to make something appear to be much more than what it really is. They are as guilty of not letting the kid learn the job as those that don't like Tebow. Realism has totally flown out the door with them. Reminds me of when people on this board were trying to compare Plummers stats with Elways during a "certain" time period. It's either there or it's not, and right now it's not.

He's aware that he isn't as good at reading defenses as he could be. That's not the same as the absolute statement "he can't read defenses". Anyone who says something like that is just revealing their complete ignorance on the matter.

bombay
08-28-2011, 05:33 PM
It's unfortunate for Tebow that he's playing in a league of incompetent coaches, 2nd string linemen who choose to block better for Brady Quinn, scouts across the league who don't feel he's currently good enough to be a starter in the league, etc.

The deck is, indeed, stacked against him. I hear that's the way it's always been for him, though.

peacepipe
08-28-2011, 05:35 PM
It's unfortunate for Tebow that he's playing in a league of incompetent coaches, 2nd string linemen who choose to block better for Brady Quinn, scouts across the league who don't feel he's currently good enough to be a starter in the league, etc.

The deck is, indeed, stacked against him. I hear that's the way it's always been for him, though.being sarcastic?

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 05:39 PM
It's unfortunate for Tebow that he's playing in a league of incompetent coaches, 2nd string linemen who choose to block better for Brady Quinn, scouts across the league who don't feel he's currently good enough to be a starter in the league, etc.

The deck is, indeed, stacked against him. I hear that's the way it's always been for him, though.

Anyone who thinks that Quinn didn't have the benefit of better blocking is honestly full of crap. It happens. Pass protection isn't the same game to game.

And anyway it's not even an excuse. Tebow's level of play doesn't need excuses. He's been pretty good.

Hogan11
08-28-2011, 06:51 PM
Is it just me or does tebow seem to always have the overwhelming urge to run up field limiting his time to look for receivers? happy feet seems to be big problem for him.

but, but, but it's just so damn exciting when he does that!

Gort
08-28-2011, 07:03 PM
By who?by some fans,scouts,analysts,and coaches.you tebow supporters are in the minority.I'd much rather trust those guys than you.it's like you guys think it's some sort of conspiracy.the dude is not ready.

BS.

you know what happens when your reads are lousy?

you miss wide open receivers and end up checking down to the RB, or you throw INTs into double and triple coverage.

Tebow is not having a problem with lousy reads.

maybe his reads are slower than Orton, but everyone expects that of a 2nd year player vs. a 7th year player.

Tebow does have a problem with happy feet. that's what he needs to work on.

but this crap about him not being able to read defenses or not knowing where to throw the ball is not borne out by his actual play. some dip**** writer for the Denver Post might throw that out there as a blanket condemnation of his abilities, but it's not the truth.

stick to the truth and make an argument about why Tebow isn't ready. you might be surprised to hear that i'm willing to listen to those arguments and might even agree. but don't make stuff up to prove your point.

broncocalijohn
08-28-2011, 07:41 PM
Where is that shyt fairy anyways?

Banned! Unfortunately, it was the 30 day variety and not lifetime.

TailgateNut
08-29-2011, 12:08 AM
It's unfortunate for Tebow that he's playing in a league of incompetent coaches, 2nd string linemen who choose to block better for Brady Quinn, scouts across the league who don't feel he's currently good enough to be a starter in the league, etc.

The deck is, indeed, stacked against him. I hear that's the way it's always been for him, though.


It's a travesty, a persecution of sorts.:spit:

HAT
08-29-2011, 06:21 AM
It's unfortunate for Tebow that he's playing in a league of incompetent coaches, 2nd string linemen who choose to block better for Brady Quinn, scouts across the league who don't feel he's currently good enough to be a starter in the league, etc.

The deck is, indeed, stacked against him. I hear that's the way it's always been for him, though. ROFL!

Poor aggemoron....He's so lost without his Macsidekick.

CEH
08-29-2011, 06:39 AM
Think about the other players at practice who are trying to make plays and flash on tape and has Tebow launching passes all over the place. How do you think the other 2nd team players feel about Tebow practice habits and inaccuracy. Must be very frustrating at times for these guys

Dedhed
08-29-2011, 07:00 AM
Think about the other players at practice who are trying to make plays and flash on tape and has Tebow launching passes all over the place. How do you think the other 2nd team players feel about Tebow practice habits and inaccuracy. Must be very frustrating at times for these guys

Think about Tebow trying to throw an 8 yard out to UDFA's who run round 12 yard outs instead. How do you think Tebow feels having to deal with that while getting no pass protection. Must be very frustrating for him.

TailgateNut
08-29-2011, 07:03 AM
Think about Tebow trying to throw an 8 yard out to UDFA's who run round 12 yard outs instead. How do you think Tebow feels having to deal with that while getting no pass protection. Must be very frustrating for him.


Quinn didn't have any issues with the same caliber players. Maybe IT IS TEBOW who sucks?!?!

Dedhed
08-29-2011, 07:28 AM
Quinn didn't have any issues with the same caliber players. Maybe IT IS TEBOW who sucks?!?!

Quinn had a pocket and a semblance of protection against a terrible Bills team. Seattle was still playing their starters when Tebow got in, and they completely owned the Broncos backups.

CEH
08-29-2011, 07:32 AM
Think about Tebow trying to throw an 8 yard out to UDFA's who run round 12 yard outs instead. How do you think Tebow feels having to deal with that while getting no pass protection. Must be very frustrating for him.

Cuts both ways but according to most on here Tebow is being held down

Dedhed
08-29-2011, 07:34 AM
Cuts both ways but according to most on here Tebow is being held down

Of course it cuts both ways. I was pointing out the fact that you failed to acknowledge that in your post.

TailgateNut
08-29-2011, 07:37 AM
Cuts both ways but according to most on here Tebow is being held down


I'll be so glad when the season starts in earnest. We wont have to listen to this BS anymore 'cause Timbow will once again inhabit his rightful spot on the sidelines. It will benefit him and the team and it might shut the Tebonites up.
3 birds with one stone.

Dedhed
08-29-2011, 08:46 AM
I'll be so glad when the season starts in earnest. We wont have to listen to this BS anymore 'cause Timbow will once again inhabit his rightful spot on the sidelines. It will benefit him and the team and it might shut the Tebonites up.
3 birds with one stone.
You realize you're exactly the same poster as macgoober, just from the other side, right?

CEH
08-29-2011, 08:47 AM
Of course it cuts both ways. I was pointing out the fact that you failed to acknowledge that in your post.

OK.
I didn't forget. It's spread throughout every tebow thread how he's being held down by 2nd and 3rd teamers. I'm just pointing out some of these 2nd and 3rd teamers realize they are being held down by Tebow's practice habits

Dedhed
08-29-2011, 08:51 AM
OK.
I didn't forget. It's spread throughout every tebow thread how he's being held down by 2nd and 3rd teamers. I'm just pointing out some of these 2nd and 3rd teamers realize they are being held down by Tebow's practice habits

See, in my opinion, all you're doing pointing out your tendency to make completely unsubstantiated assumptions.

TailgateNut
08-29-2011, 08:58 AM
You realize you're exactly the same poster as macgoober, just from the other side, right?

No DUDE, I am not. I've been a Bronco Fan longer than you've been alive and have gone through many ups and more downs than you can imagine, so don't even attempt to compare me to that sad excuse of a Tebow fan who only cares about ONE PLAYER.
I'm sick of what the Tebow pick has done to our team and fanbase. It's worse than the ****ler episode of how the Bronco world turns. We wasted picks to get him, and now we can see that he is an overrated running back with some QB abilities.

CEH
08-29-2011, 09:10 AM
See, in my opinion, all you're doing pointing out your tendency to make completely unsubstantiated assumptions.

Synoymns for assumption

Synonyms: presupposition; hypothesis, conjecture, guess, postulate, theory

Gee when did a message board not include a guess, conjecture, or theory?

So saying Tebow is getting a raw deal but Quinn isn't is some type of valid fact? You'd think so reading all these Tebow threads

orange 4 life
08-29-2011, 09:30 AM
this is not the first time you've seen this thread, and certainly won't be the last.

It should be the last.

Whether one agrees or disagrees with the statement doesn't really matter.
What matters is right now (and realistically this season at the LEAST) is he is NOT the starter and he isn't gonna be anytime soon.

So why talk about it? Why is ESPN about to talk about it?
I really don't get it.
I don't understand why some people feel the need to prop him up MUCH further than his play has earned AND I don't understand why others feel the need to bash him mercilessly.

Bottom line is anyone entrenched in reality knows he isn't the best QB on our roster (not by a long shot) and he's also not 4th.
That's the situation THIS season so let it go right?
He's a good kid and a talented individual. Maybe with a few years under his belt he can be an above average QB in this league.

I know he's a popular and polarizing figure but I don't see why everyone feels the need to talk about him (good OR bad) constantly!!!
This could be a solid Bronco team that turns some heads and lost in all the Tebow talk is that our defense looks to be VASTLY improved as does our O-line and running game.
As a result of course Orton and Lloyd should be able to improve on what they did last season and they were pretty impressive last year WITHOUT a defense and running game and with one our red zone looks to be much better.

So how 'bout we get excited about THIS years team (and if there's Tebow talk it should revolve around his ability to help as a halfback, fullback, or Wild Horses QB) and let Tebow develop. No other 2nd/3rd string QB has ever garnered this much attention. Again if we're talking about a few packages where he can help this season great but more talk about him as a starter is unfair to him and the rest of the team. Just my .02.

Broncos4tw
08-29-2011, 10:51 AM
I still think Tebow is rarely looking past his second read. Sometimes not past his first. If he is covered, he is off to the races. I think the speed of the NFL game is something he hasn't adjusted to yet. Fixable? Maybe. But until he gets some patience in the pocket, he'll never be considered a premier prospect. We didn't draft him as a FB.

TailgateNut
08-29-2011, 10:55 AM
I still think Tebow is rarely looking past his second read. Sometimes not past his first. If he is covered, he is off to the races. I think the speed of the NFL game is something he hasn't adjusted to yet. Fixable? Maybe. But until he gets some patience in the pocket, he'll never be considered a premier prospect. We didn't draft him as a FB.


....we shouldn't have drafted him PERIOD!

jhns
08-29-2011, 10:58 AM
I still think Tebow is rarely looking past his second read. Sometimes not past his first. If he is covered, he is off to the races. I think the speed of the NFL game is something he hasn't adjusted to yet. Fixable? Maybe. But until he gets some patience in the pocket, he'll never be considered a premier prospect. We didn't draft him as a FB.

Most QBs never get past two reads. Orton only did on plays where the line gave him 10 seconds. Shoot, Lloyd fell down on a play and had two defenders sitting on him, Orton still sat there looking at him for like eight seconds before throwing it away.

bronco militia
08-29-2011, 10:59 AM
....we shouldn't have drafted him PERIOD!

at the time, someone wasn't happy with the current QB options on the roster



http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/11/2009/09/500x_orton.jpg

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/writers/pete_mcentegart/01/03/ten.spot/p1_lauraquinn.jpg

rbackfactory80
08-29-2011, 11:04 AM
You realize you're exactly the same poster as macgoober, just from the other side, right?


BS Macwhatever actually made sense once in a while.

HAT
08-29-2011, 11:10 AM
No DUDE, I am not. I've been a Bronco Fan longer than you've been alive and have gone through many ups and more downs than you can imagine, so don't even attempt to compare me to that sad excuse of a Tebow fan who only cares about ONE PLAYER.

He didn't compare you as a Bronco fan. He compared you as a poster....And as of lately at least, it's a fair comparison.

Bronco_Beerslug
08-30-2011, 01:37 AM
It should be the last.

Whether one agrees or disagrees with the statement doesn't really matter.
What matters is right now (and realistically this season at the LEAST) is he is NOT the starter and he isn't gonna be anytime soon.

So why talk about it? Why is ESPN about to talk about it?
I really don't get it.
.Tebow may be the starter at some point this season. Here's what some people are not seeing....

We can not and will not ever win a SB with Orton starting. He's one of the worst QBs to ever play the game when pressured.

People who understand this know that it is a complete waste of time to start Orton. I have no idea if Tebow or Quinn will ever be good QBs in the NFL but I know Orton NEVER will be. He is slow, weak and uncoordinated and will not a be a Bronco in the near future unless in the backup roll.

So, knowing that, play Tebow/Quinn now, find out what you got and move on one way or the other, instead of treading water, wasting time and going nowhere..

cmhargrove
08-30-2011, 06:13 AM
Ok, so I just watched the Seattle game last night. How can anyone say that Tebow did poorly? Behind a line like that, Orton would have gone three and out almost every drive. Behind a line like that, Cutler would have thrown three interceptions. Tebow looked pretty cool and consistent when given the time. I am more enthusuastic than ever that he is truly developing into a starting QB.

Start Orton for game 1, then lets reassess by the bye week. I'm also completely cool with Tebow learning the ropes and developing (in special packages) this year. But I do see a starting NFL QB in the making. He will be our guy next season, and that's probably the time he will need to develop.

I feel better after watching Tebow in the Seattle game, not worse.

bronco militia
08-30-2011, 07:03 AM
Ok, so I just watched the Seattle game last night. How can anyone say that Tebow did poorly? Behind a line like that, Orton would have gone three and out almost every drive. Behind a line like that, Cutler would have thrown three interceptions. Tebow looked pretty cool and consistent when given the time. I am more enthusuastic than ever that he is truly developing into a starting QB.

Start Orton for game 1, then lets reassess by the bye week. I'm also completely cool with Tebow learning the ropes and developing (in special packages) this year. But I do see a starting NFL QB in the making. He will be our guy next season, and that's probably the time he will need to develop.

I feel better after watching Tebow in the Seattle game, not worse.

he wasn't running for his life on every play. He's got a long ways to go.

alkemical
08-30-2011, 07:08 AM
he wasn't running for his life on every play. He's got a long ways to go.

I thought it was going to take 5yrs to get a full ROI for him being a QB.

Mile High Mojoe
08-30-2011, 07:11 AM
"Orton has lost eight of nine, 14 of 17 and 17 of his past 22 starts."

This should be posted on every Tebow hating thread.

CEH
08-30-2011, 07:11 AM
I guess I did see some improvement in the pocket

Tebow was hot and cold. In the pass to JTSuperstar, he went through his progressions, another time he waited then moved to his right and lobbed a nice pass to the RB but then in the 3rd qtr around mid field he drops back and immediately tucks him head down and runs at the first hint of pressure instead of just stepping up and keeping his eyes downfield

oubronco
08-30-2011, 07:16 AM
I'd like to see what Weber can do with the starters why not give him a chance

bronco militia
08-30-2011, 07:20 AM
I thought it was going to take 5yrs to get a full ROI for him being a QB.

IMO, he has until 2014 or he ges cut in the next two weeks.

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_15667056

alkemical
08-30-2011, 07:23 AM
IMO, he has until 2014 or he ges cut in the next two weeks.

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_15667056

I don't think he'll be cut this year, but hey - if it happens - can you mail beer? I'll send you some stuff from out here.

bronco militia
08-30-2011, 07:24 AM
I don't think he'll be cut this year, but hey - if it happens - can you mail beer? I'll send you some stuff from out here.

not sure...lol.

SEND MORE BEER!!!!!!!!

alkemical
08-30-2011, 07:26 AM
not sure...lol.

SEND MORE BEER!!!!!!!!

Troeggs, stoudts or sly fox?

bronco militia
08-30-2011, 07:27 AM
Troeggs, stoudts or sly fox?

yes, yes, and yes

what ever is your favorite

alkemical
08-30-2011, 07:31 AM
yes, yes, and yes

what ever is your favorite

Werd:

http://www.slyfoxbeer.com/index.php/front/beer_dunkel

http://www.stoudtsbeer.com/brewery_styles-big-beers.html

One of those two then.

bronco militia
08-30-2011, 07:36 AM
fat dog it is

alkemical
08-30-2011, 07:57 AM
Werd!

Dagmar
08-30-2011, 08:26 AM
http://themetapicture.com/media/funny-gif-seal-polar-bear.gif

cmhargrove
08-30-2011, 10:47 AM
he wasn't running for his life on every play. He's got a long ways to go.

Are you saying that Orton would have done better than Tebow playing behind that porous line? He was running a lot, go back and watch it. The pocket collapsed quickly on most passing plays. Compare that to the starting O-line where Orton often had 6-8 seconds. That's night and day.

Part 2 of he equation is the talent he is throwing to. Brandon Lloyd, Eddie Royal, and Eric Decker are a significant upgrade over Britt Davis and Matt Willis. Many of Orton's passes weren't right on target, but Lloyd makes everyone look good.

Tom Brady would have looked like **** behind that line, throwing to those receivers. I'm happily surprised by Tebow.

DenverBrit
08-30-2011, 11:54 AM
Are you saying that Orton would have done better than Tebow playing behind that porous line? He was running a lot, go back and watch it. The pocket collapsed quickly on most passing plays. Compare that to the starting O-line where Orton often had 6-8 seconds. That's night and day.

Part 2 of he equation is the talent he is throwing to. Brandon Lloyd, Eddie Royal, and Eric Decker are a significant upgrade over Britt Davis and Matt Willis. Many of Orton's passes weren't right on target, but Lloyd makes everyone look good.

Tom Brady would have looked like **** behind that line, throwing to those receivers. I'm happily surprised by Tebow.

Until Tebow can show he can get the ball out from the pocket, teams will stack the line and get after him. Quinn played behind the same line and looked better.

Tebow will get his shot, but he's got work to do.

TailgateNut
08-30-2011, 12:41 PM
Until Tebow can show he can get the ball out from the pocket, teams will stack the line and get after him. Quinn played behind the same line and looked better.

Tebow will get his shot, but he's got work to do.


The Tebonites will never understand reason. It's their boy or nothing.

alkemical
08-30-2011, 12:42 PM
The Tebonites will never understand reason. It's their boy or nothing.

Welcome to Neo-Tribalism.

BMF Bronco
08-30-2011, 12:45 PM
The Tebonites will never understand reason. It's their boy or nothing.

The converse goes as well...:afro:

Gort
08-30-2011, 12:56 PM
The Tebonites will never understand reason. It's their boy or nothing.

this is not true.

those who support Tebow for the most part just want to see him get a fair shot... to know that the new regime hadn't decided that the Tebow experiment was over before it ever really began.

i'm ok with Tebow sitting this year, so long as he's learning and being tutored.

i don't think Orton is the answer for this team. so the future is either Quinn, Tebow or some QBTBNL. i also don't think Orton runs a particularly exciting style of offense, nor can he put a team on his back and carry it to victory late in a game. i'm not sure he even cares at this point. he clearly views this year as a showcase year because he expects to get a long term contract next year with big money. winning and losing seems to be irrelevant to him. we saw that here for the past 2 years... it never seems to bother him much whether the team is winning or losing, so long as he can get some yards in garbage time, he seems happy. we've all seen that he doesn't put the team first. he was awful for a few games last year, yet refused to tell the team he was injured. to me, that's selfish. when you're an injured Elway going out there trying to win a game, that's gutsy because he we all know the Broncos stood a better chance of winning with Elway at 70% than almost anyone else at 100%. but with Orton at 70%, that's a recipe for disaster. he should have told the team a couple of weeks earlier and he didn't.

but that's all water under the bridge. if Elway and Fox think it's more important to play Orton now than to give Tebow experience or even see what Quinn could do if you gave him a couple of starts, that's ok with me.

my one real fear is that Orton is just mediocre enough in a dismal season where we finish out of the top 5 picks to scare Fox and Elway and Bowlen into giving him a 4-5 year contract for big bucks because they are more afraid of the unknown than the known (Orton). that would cripple this franchise for a long time.

so long as they don't do that and they don't give up on Tebow, i'm willing to spend 2011 rooting for an exciting defense and being bored/frustrated by another year of an Orton led offense.

cmhargrove
08-30-2011, 01:05 PM
The Tebonites will never understand reason. It's their boy or nothing.

You're a fag. I have clearly stated that I think Orton should start for our team. Your name calling just doesn't do anything for this discussion.

Orton is a great guy, and I like him as a person and tough-shelled leader. The game he finished in Chicago with the messed up ankle was inspirational. However, he just isn't winning many games. Take that for what it is, it's just fact.

As stated previously, I think Tebow will play situational ball until next year. At the opening of next season, I think he's the guy.

Do you find it interesting that you speak about "reason," yet act and think unreasonably?

TailgateNut
08-30-2011, 01:08 PM
The converse goes as well...:afro:

The converse??? We're aren't arguing with the decision of the staff/coaches whereas the "know-it-all-monday-morning-coaches(Tebonites) are arguing the decisions of those charged to make the decisions based on training and preseason performance.

Tebow sucks-That is all!

TailgateNut
08-30-2011, 01:12 PM
You're a fag. I have clearly stated that I think Orton should start for our team. Your name calling just doesn't do anything for this discussion.

Orton is a great guy, and I like him as a person and tough-shelled leader. The game he finished in Chicago with the messed up ankle was inspirational. However, he just isn't winning many games. Take that for what it is, it's just fact.

As stated previously, I think Tebow will play situational ball until next year. At the opening of next season, I think he's the guy.

Do you find it interesting that you speak about "reason," yet act and think unreasonably?

Name calling? What? Tebonites? Hilarious! Wow, I hope I didn't hurt your fragile feelings.

You seem to be a non-committed Tebonite. Onee who finally has come to the conclusion that MAYBE Tebow sittting on the bench with a few reps in certain situation might be a win-win for both the team and for Timmy.

On the other hand you have the "hardcore Teboners" who seem to think he has to start. Period. End of discussions. **** what the staff has decided is best for the team, not for Timmy.

BMF Bronco
08-30-2011, 01:23 PM
The converse??? We're aren't arguing with the decision of the staff/coaches whereas the "know-it-all-monday-morning-coaches(Tebonites) are arguing the decisions of those charged to make the decisions based on training and preseason performance.

Tebow sucks-That is all!

I am saying you're being as thick headed and insolent as they are, it's a two way street regardless how you look at it. :wave:

TailgateNut
08-30-2011, 01:24 PM
I am saying you're being as thick headed and insolent as they are, it's a two way street regardless how you look at it. :wave:


"There's a fine line between love and hate":wave:

Rigs11
08-30-2011, 01:34 PM
http://13psi.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/tim_tebow_crying-290x300.jpg

TailgateNut
08-30-2011, 01:55 PM
http://13psi.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/tim_tebow_crying-290x300.jpg


LOL

Dedhed
08-30-2011, 08:26 PM
Synoymns for assumption

Synonyms: presupposition; hypothesis, conjecture, guess, postulate, theory

Gee when did a message board not include a guess, conjecture, or theory?

So saying Tebow is getting a raw deal but Quinn isn't is some type of valid fact? You'd think so reading all these Tebow threads

I was talking about your "presupposition" regarding what 2nd and 3rd string players are thinking.

I doubt you've spoken to them about the way they're feeling, and yet you've staked a claim to knowing. That's ASSUMPTION, my friend, by whatever name you care to call it.

Dedhed
08-30-2011, 08:31 PM
The Tebonites will never understand reason. It's their boy or nothing.

Nice take Macgruber

Archer81
08-30-2011, 09:02 PM
http://13psi.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/tim_tebow_crying-290x300.jpg


http://tinyurl.com/3hz7mlr


:Broncos:

AlphaSeirra
08-31-2011, 08:08 AM
Until Tebow can show he can get the ball out from the pocket, teams will stack the line and get after him.
Quinn played behind the same line and looked better.

Tebow will get his shot, but he's got work to do.

The Tebonites will never understand reason. It's their boy or nothing.

But will the haters and/or nay-sayers ever actually look at the stats/facts is the real question?

1. Orton 28 of 42, 66.7% for 408 yds, 9.7 yds/att, (9.7 yds/comp), Long 42 yds, Passer Rating 104.1
Rushing - 1 for 4 yds

2. Tebow 13 of 20, 65.0% for 194 yds, 9.7 yds/att, (14.3 yds/comp), Long 43 yds, Passer Rating 96.7
>> Rushing 7 for 47 yds, 6.7 ypc. (next closest Bronco are Moreno - 4.9 ypc, & Johnson 4.5 ypc)

3. Quinn 18 of 30, 60.0% for 250 yds, 8.3 yds/att, (13.3 yds/comp), Long 26 yds, Passer Rating 95.1
Rushing - NADA

Orton is finally slightly ahead in the stats, but we have yet to see Tebow practice and play with the 1st team,
or Orton practice and play with the backups and scrubs.....

But 'loo-king gud' Quinn's stats are NOT as good as Tebow's.... :kiddingme

I don't really care which they do, really.

But either play him IF he's good enough,,,, or trade him if you think that he's not good enough.

NOBODY every 'developed' while sitting on the bench.....

Did they 'develop' Elway by sitting him on the bench, cause he certainly wasn't ready to be a starter his rookie year,
judging by his game stats, (worse than Tebow's).

Leaving Tim to flounder on the bench serves neither Tim nor the Broncos imo.
(it's poop, or get off the pot time)

Beantown Bronco
08-31-2011, 08:19 AM
NOBODY every 'developed' while sitting on the bench.....

Ummm, this couldn't be more wrong actually.

Did they 'develop' Elway by sitting him on the bench, cause he certainly wasn't ready to be a starter his rookie year,
judging by his game stats, (worse than Tebow's).

Leaving Tim to flounder on the bench serves neither Tim nor the Broncos imo.
(it's poop, or get off the pot time)

Why is it poop or get off the pot time right now? When he was drafted there was a consensus among coaches, media, analysts and fans that the Broncos would need to be patient with him and give him at least a year or two to sit on the bench and work on his game before he'd be ready to start. It was all but a given. Then when the lockout essentially robbed him of a good portion of this time, it only made things worse. Why get impatient now when a year ago, we all knew that it would probably be 2012 or at least late 2011 before he'd be ready to take the reigns full time?

DenverBrit
08-31-2011, 08:43 AM
But will the haters and/or nay-sayers ever actually look at the stats/facts is the real question?

1. Orton 28 of 42, 66.7% for 408 yds, 9.7 yds/att, (9.7 yds/comp), Long 42 yds, Passer Rating 104.1
Rushing - 1 for 4 yds

2. Tebow 13 of 20, 65.0% for 194 yds, 9.7 yds/att, (14.3 yds/comp), Long 43 yds, Passer Rating 96.7
>> Rushing 7 for 47 yds, 6.7 ypc. (next closest Bronco are Moreno - 4.9 ypc, & Johnson 4.5 ypc)

3. Quinn 18 of 30, 60.0% for 250 yds, 8.3 yds/att, (13.3 yds/comp), Long 26 yds, Passer Rating 95.1
Rushing - NADA

Orton is finally slightly ahead in the stats, but we have yet to see Tebow practice and play with the 1st team,
or Orton practice and play with the backups and scrubs.....

But 'loo-king gud' Quinn's stats are NOT as good as Tebow's.... :kiddingme

I don't really care which they do, really.

But either play him IF he's good enough,,,, or trade him if you think that he's not good enough.

NOBODY every 'developed' while sitting on the bench.....

Did they 'develop' Elway by sitting him on the bench, cause he certainly wasn't ready to be a starter his rookie year,
judging by his game stats, (worse than Tebow's).

Leaving Tim to flounder on the bench serves neither Tim nor the Broncos imo.
(it's poop, or get off the pot time)

Many great QBs waited and learned. As will Tebow.

TailgateNut
08-31-2011, 08:47 AM
Many great QBs waited and learned. As will Tebow.


The impatient ones' would rather we throw the kid to the wolves and both hee and the team would end up with a big fat FACEPALM!

AlphaSeirra
08-31-2011, 08:55 AM
Ummm, this couldn't be more wrong actually.



Why is it poop or get off the pot time right now? When he was drafted there was a consensus among coaches, media, analysts and fans that the Broncos would need to be patient with him and give him at least a year or two to sit on the bench and work on his game before he'd be ready to start. It was all but a given. Then when the lockout essentially robbed him of a good portion of this time, it only made things worse. Why get impatient now when a year ago, we all knew that it would probably be 2012 or at least late 2011 before he'd be ready to take the reigns full time?

Ummm -U-, couldn't be more wrong actually. LOL

Being in a majority has never been equal to being correct.
Otherwise, the (opinionated - consensus) lynch mob would be in common use instead of the (factual) courts.

Morons claimed that Tebow would never make it as a HS QB.

~ He went on to win a Florida HS State Championship and be elected to the Florida HS All Century Team.

Morons claimed that Tebow's skill set would NOT translate to college, especially in the monster defense SEC.

~ He went on to 06-BCS-NC, 07-1st Soph Heisman, 08-BCS-NC, 09-Campbell Award (Academic Heisman). He led his class to an SEC All Time Record going 48-7 in his 4 years.

Morons (consensus) claimed that he WOULD NOT be drafted until the 3-4 round, and probably as a FB.

~ Maybe the consensus morons are the clueless ones, and the Tebow fans are just looking REALITY straight in the face. :wave:

Today: Orton 104.1 -- Tebow 96.7 -- Quinn 95.1 -- So it looks to me like the lockout hurt 5th year Quinn more than it did Tebow.

And that's not even considering that Tim is again leading the Broncos with a 6.7 ypc average running the ball. :strong:

Now really,who did the lock-out really hurt?

Tebow in 2010 had an 82.1 Passer rating with 5.3 ypc running the ball.

Tebow in 2011 has a 96.7 Passer rating with a 6.7 ypc running the ball.

========================

Futhermore --- 2011 Preseason Stats so far:

Tebow 13 of 20, 65.0% for 194 yds, 9.7 yds/att, Long 43 yds, PER 96.7 + 6.7 ypc

Bradford 24 of 43, 55.8% for 278 yds, 6.5 yds/att, PER 87.2 + 9.0 ypc

Cutler 26 of 43, 60.5% for 341 yds, 7.9 yds/att, (13.1 yds/comp), PER 75.8

Clausen 17 of 29, 58.6%, for 173 yds, 5.9 yds/att, 72.9 PER, + 3.3 ypc

Newton 21 of 52, 40.4%, for 275 yds, 5.3 yds/att, PER 57.8, + 8.4 ypc

M.Vick 19 of 36, 52.8%, for 219 yds, 6.0 yds/att, Long ?? PER 45.9 + 4.5 ypc

=========================

However,,, the consensus already KNOWS that Tim has a weak, inaccurate arm, with a slow delivery,,, right???

2011 Preseason Ranking By Completion Percentage:

1. A.Rodgers 79.1%

2. C.Whitehurst 70.2%

3. P.Rivers 68.9%

t4. M.Schaub 66.7%

t4. K.Orton 66.7% (1st team only)

6. T.Tebow 65.0% (longest -43 yds- preseason pass by a Bronco QB)

7. C.Henne 64.4%

8. R.Grossman 64.2%

9. R.Mallet 63.8%

10. C.McCoy 60.9%

11. J.Cutler 60.5% (0TD - 1Int)

Common (media-morons) Knowledge >>---> Tebow is an In-accurate, weak armed Passer. -- WTF????

My consensus of 1 says to poop or...... :sunshine:

DenverBrit
08-31-2011, 09:07 AM
Tough to make a case for anything using pre-season stats.

Just accept that Fox and Elway know more about QBs than you ever will.

So root for the team to win, no matter who's under center.

Beantown Bronco
08-31-2011, 09:08 AM
Talk about saying a lot without saying anything.....jeez Alpha.

Keep telling us how nobody ever developed while sitting on the bench. That was good stuff.

Dagmar
08-31-2011, 09:13 AM
We are really running out of Tebow to talk about. It's ALL been said. i was gutted we didn't trade Orton and go with the kid, but I'll support who's behind center for us always.

Miss I.
08-31-2011, 09:15 AM
Say did Steve Young by any chance sit on a bench behind anyone? does anyone know how that worked out for him? Or how about that kid in Green Bay that just won a superbowl, was he behind anyone we might've heard of before they played him? ;D

TailgateNut
08-31-2011, 09:16 AM
Say did Steve Young by any chance sit on a bench behind anyone? does anyone know how that worked out for him? Or how about that kid in Green Bay that just won a superbowl, was he behind anyone we might've heard of before they played him? ;D


Naw. Didn't they both get the starting role because enough fans cried on the internet?ROFL!

bronco militia
08-31-2011, 09:18 AM
too bad Tebow isn't backing up a HOF.....orton saves the face palm for the 4th quarter

AlphaSeirra
08-31-2011, 09:18 AM
Tough to make a case for anything using pre-season stats.

Just accept that Fox and Elway know more about QBs than you ever will.

So root for the team to win, no matter who's under center.

So, when the facts show you what you really are, then you fall back to the 'Fox/Clausen & sucking rookie Elway know more' position huh?
Typical of those without the nads to just admit to being shown incorrect. ;)
===============

"Talk about saying a lot without saying anything.....jeez Alpha.
Keep telling us how nobody ever developed while sitting on the bench. That was good stuff."

Well then, if Orton sucks (as the consensus claims) then why don't we put him on the bench so that he can then improve enough to be a winner??? Hilarious!

bowtown
08-31-2011, 09:24 AM
So, when the facts show you what you really are, then you fall back to the 'Fox/Clausen & sucking rookie Elway know more' position huh?
Typical of those without the nads to just admit to being shown incorrect. ;)
===============

"Talk about saying a lot without saying anything.....jeez Alpha.
Keep telling us how nobody ever developed while sitting on the bench. That was good stuff."

Well then, if Orton sucks (as the consensus claims) then why don't we put him on the bench so that he can then improve enough to be a winner??? Hilarious!

I see MacGruder is back under a new name. Great. You got banned, dude. Take a hint.

AlphaSeirra
08-31-2011, 09:26 AM
Say did Steve Young by any chance sit on a bench behind anyone? does anyone know how that worked out for him? Or how about that kid in Green Bay that just won a superbowl, was he behind anyone we might've heard of before they played him? ;D




Oh now this is the perfect example of CHERRY PICKIN' your facts to fit your bias:

Are you really attempting to equate Orton with any of those other starting QB's?

REALLY!!!! Hilarious!

PS
Did Elway sit on the bench or start?
Are Tebow's rookie stats better than Elways?
(feel free to use just their first 3 starts if you'd like) ;)

bowtown
08-31-2011, 09:27 AM
Oh now this is the perfect example of CHERRY PICKIN' your facts to fit your bias:

Are you really attempting to equate Orton with any of those other starting QB's?

REALLY!!!! Hilarious!

PS
Did Elway sit on the bench or start?
Are Tebow's rookie stats better than Elways?
(feel free to use just their first 3 starts if you'd like) ;)

No she's actually trying to equate Tebow to them idiot. Seriously, you are banned. Stay the **** away.

Dedhed
08-31-2011, 09:27 AM
Say did Steve Young by any chance sit on a bench behind anyone? does anyone know how that worked out for him? Or how about that kid in Green Bay that just won a superbowl, was he behind anyone we might've heard of before they played him? ;D

Because you can give examples of good QBs that sat for awhile, does nothing to support the idea that it's the best way to develop a QB.

For every Steve Young there are two John Elways and Peyton Mannings; guys who took their lumps early playing for bad teams and were better for it.

Aaron Rogers may have won the SB two years ago if hadn't sat so long and had already been further along the learning curve.

bowtown
08-31-2011, 09:29 AM
Because you can give examples of good QBs that sat for awhile, does nothing to support the idea that it's the best way to develop a QB.

For every Steve Young there are two John Elways and Peyton Mannings; guys who took their lumps early playing for bad teams and were better for it.

Aaron Rogers may have won the SB two years ago if hadn't sat so long and had already been further along the learning curve.

Link?

Beantown Bronco
08-31-2011, 09:29 AM
Oh now this is the perfect example of CHERRY PICKIN' your facts to fit your bias:

Are you really attempting to equate Orton with any of those other starting QB's?

REALLY!!!! Hilarious!

PS
Did Elway sit on the bench or start?
Are Tebow's rookie stats better than Elways?
(feel free to use just their first 3 starts if you'd like) ;)

MacGruber.....ummm, I mean Alpha....there's no such thing as cherry picking when you use the word "nobody." As soon as you use that word, all one needs is a single example of a person who has done what you say "nobody" has done and you are proven wrong. Orton has nothing to do with this one. Nice try, though.

Beantown Bronco
08-31-2011, 09:31 AM
Because you can give examples of good QBs that sat for awhile, does nothing to support the idea that it's the best way to develop a QB.


Ummmm, NOBODY is saying it's the best way for everyone. All we're doing is disproving the moronic argument above that it's NEVER the best way for anyone.

Dedhed
08-31-2011, 09:32 AM
Link?

www.google.com

Dedhed
08-31-2011, 09:34 AM
Ummmm, NOBODY is saying it's the best way for everyone. All we're doing is disproving the moronic argument above that it's NEVER the best way for anyone.

That's not the argument. The argument is that the supposed developmental QB in question has already proven more effective than the incumbent, and has shown, in actual games, that he's not going to be in over his head.

BroncoInferno
08-31-2011, 09:34 AM
For every Steve Young there are two John Elways and Peyton Mannings; guys who took their lumps early playing for bad teams and were better for it

For every Peyton Manning there are five David Carrs and Tim Couchs who were ruined by it.

Bottom line is that it really depends on the player and circumstances as to whether or not you want to let a guy play right away, or let them sit.

Dedhed
08-31-2011, 09:35 AM
For every Peyton Manning there are five David Carrs and Tim Couchs who were ruined by it.

So you can prove that they would have been great if only they could have sat for 4 years? Umm... No.

AlphaSeirra
08-31-2011, 09:35 AM
MacGruber.....ummm, I mean Alpha....there's no such thing as cherry picking when you use the word "nobody." As soon as you use that word, all one needs is a single example of a person who has done what you say "nobody" has done and you are proven wrong. Orton has nothing to do with this one. Nice try, though.


Whomever MacGruber is/was, name-calling me won't make that true.

But I'm willing to just state that leaving Tebow on the bench is not good for either him or for the Broncos.

That's MY opinion, and it's just a good and/or valid as any other.

PS
Banning anyone who doesn't follow the 'company line' will certainly spice up a board.... :wave:

DenverBrit
08-31-2011, 09:37 AM
So, when the facts show you what you really are, then you fall back to the 'Fox/Clausen & sucking rookie Elway know more' position huh?
Typical of those without the nads to just admit to being shown incorrect. ;)
===============

"Talk about saying a lot without saying anything.....jeez Alpha.
Keep telling us how nobody ever developed while sitting on the bench. That was good stuff."

Well then, if Orton sucks (as the consensus claims) then why don't we put him on the bench so that he can then improve enough to be a winner??? Hilarious!

What do your little pre season stats show that I really am?? Fox and Elway knowing more about QBs than you will ever know? That's simply the truth.

As for being shown that I'm incorrect, you've shown nothing, other than your Teboner is doing your thinking for you.

Beantown Bronco
08-31-2011, 09:38 AM
That's not the argument. The argument is that the supposed developmental QB in question has already proven more effective than the incumbent, and has shown, in actual games, that he's not going to be in over his head.

It may not be YOUR argument, but it was the argument that you directly responded to.

BroncoInferno
08-31-2011, 09:38 AM
So you can prove that they would have been great if only they could have sat for 4 years? Umm... No.

So you can prove that Manning and Elway might not have been able to skip over the developmental woes that they endured had they been allowed to sit and learn? You can prove that it was playing early that made them great? Umm...no.

Dedhed
08-31-2011, 09:38 AM
It may not be YOUR argument, but it was the argument that you directly responded to.

Well, then respond to my argument.

Dedhed
08-31-2011, 09:40 AM
So you can prove that Manning and Elway might not have been able to skip over the developmental woes that they endured had they been allowed to sit and learn? You can prove that it was playing early that made them great? Umm...no.
I'm not stating that at all. I'm stating that it's a purely circular argument, and a dumb one to hang your hat on.

Beantown Bronco
08-31-2011, 09:41 AM
Well, then respond to my argument.

Your entire argument that he's performing better and isn't over his head is based off of too small a sample size. He largely looked like garbage in the Oakland game and the first half of the Houston game. He put up most of his stats in what people would describe as "garbage time" had Orton been the one behind center.

Miss I.
08-31-2011, 09:43 AM
Because you can give examples of good QBs that sat for awhile, does nothing to support the idea that it's the best way to develop a QB.

For every Steve Young there are two John Elways and Peyton Mannings; guys who took their lumps early playing for bad teams and were better for it.

Aaron Rogers may have won the SB two years ago if hadn't sat so long and had already been further along the learning curve.

I wasn't saying it's the best idea for developing a QB, I was simply negating the following statement:

"NOBODY every 'developed' while sitting on the bench....."

Making a "nobody" "never" type statment is usually a bad idea, because there will always be an exception. Sometimes exceptions even prove the rule, but in this case, the statement was broad and erroneous.

As far as the cherry picking argument, what about Tom Brady? He sat for at least a year before Bledsoe went out in his 2nd season with the Pats. Is Bledsoe a HOFer? I don't think so, but he was certainly the Pats "franchise QB" for long time. Granted, Brady got the start in year 2 of his career, but would he have if Bledsoe hadn't been critically injured? Either way sometimes development does happen while doing clipboard duty so the above statement is inaccurate. It is not impossible to develop a QB that way. Is it the best method? Depends entirely on the system the QB is in, the coach and the individual QB? Some are best put straight on the field, some aren't. There are many methods for developing an NFL QB, what method is best for Tebow? Well here's to hoping the coaches know what they are doing.

BroncoInferno
08-31-2011, 09:44 AM
I'm not stating that at all. I'm stating that it's a purely circular argument, and a dumb one to hang your hat on.

It works two ways. Of course it can't be proven. The point to take away from all that is that there is no one right way to develope a young QB. It depends on the individual and circumstances. Some guys learn better by playing, some learn better by sitting and observing. Others would be better off sitting because of the team surrounding them. Who knows what would have happened with David Carr's career if he had not been slaughtered week after week behind one of the worst OLs in history? Rivers and Rodgers came right out of the gate playing like Pro Bowlers. It's highly doubtful they would have played at that level as rookies. Anyway, maybe Tebow is one of those guys who learns better from the sit and watch approach.

Dedhed
08-31-2011, 09:45 AM
Your entire argument that he's performing better and isn't over his head is based off of too small a sample size. He largely looked like garbage in the Oakland game and the first half of the Houston game. He put up most of his stats in what people would describe as "garbage time" had Orton been the one behind center.
Orton's sample size is huge, and you're expecting him to suddenly be more than the below average journeyman he's always been. Yet you're suggesting that Tebow's isn't indicative. pretty wishy washy.

That's a specious response. Your saying that Tebow's only been successful when given the chance. Doesn't work for me at all.

Beantown Bronco
08-31-2011, 09:47 AM
Orton's sample size is huge, and you're expecting him to suddenly be more than the below average journeyman he's always been. Yet you're suggesting that Tebow's isn't indicative. pretty wishy washy.

That's a specious response. Your saying that Tebow's only been successful when given the chance. Doesn't work for me at all.

I'm convinced you haven't read what I've written. You're putting words in my mouth that don't even come close to expressing what I wrote.

Dedhed
08-31-2011, 09:54 AM
It works two ways. Of course it can't be proven. Which is exactly why it's a pointless circular argument.


The point to take away from all that is that there is no one right way to develope a young QB. It depends on the individual and circumstances. Some guys learn better by playing, some learn better by sitting and observing. Others would be better off sitting because of the team surrounding them. Who knows what would have happened with David Carr's career if he had not been slaughtered week after week behind one of the worst OLs in history? Rivers and Rodgers came right out of the gate playing like Pro Bowlers. It's highly doubtful they would have played at that level as rookies. Anyway, maybe Tebow is one of those guys who learns better from the sit and watch approach.
The point I take away is that Tebow's football skills are ALREADY developed to a level where he's more effective than Orton.

Is he a developed pocket/timing passer? Of course not.

Does that matter? Not in my opinion. He's a better football player.

AlphaSeirra
08-31-2011, 09:55 AM
What do your little pre season stats show that I really am?? Fox and Elway knowing more about QBs than you will ever know? That's simply the truth.

As for being shown that I'm incorrect, you've shown nothing, other than your Teboner is doing your thinking for you.

Not at all the 'truth,' it's ONLY your own much biased OPINION.

And your opinion is based of the barest of information.

And it's being processed by your own (maybe deficient) brain.

You don't have a clue about who I am, or what I know.

The TRUTH??? You can't handle the truth....

They currently are using practice to determine the starter, correct?

So tell me, is practice a better indicator than preseason games against a real opponent? (crickets)

And is there any advantage to using the starters over the scrubs in both practice and the games?

Put Orton with the scrubs for a week, and Tebow with the starters if you want an actual 'FAIR' evaluation of their relative QB'ing abilities.

I'm not biased FOR Tebow, he is simply a better QB than the other three on the roster imoho. :sunshine:

They (coaches/staff/owner) will start and play whomever they choose.
Fine with me, I never sports bet so it won't cost me a dime either way.

However, I would like to see what Tebow can do, so I would like to see them either play him or trade him.

And since THEY don't follow any boards, and THEY are never swayed by what any stupid fan says or wants, then what the heck does it matter anyway? ;)

Dedhed
08-31-2011, 09:55 AM
I'm convinced you haven't read what I've written. You're putting words in my mouth that don't even come close to expressing what I wrote.

I'm convinced you haven't validly answered to my point.

TailgateNut
08-31-2011, 09:56 AM
Which is exactly why it's a pointless circular argument.



The point I take away is that Tebow's football skills are ALREADY developed to a level where he's more effective than Orton.

Is he a developed pocket/timing passer? Of course not.

Does that matter? Not in my opinion. He's a better football player.


Please DO take it away. No one who matters gives a **** what you and the rest of the Tebonites think.

Dedhed
08-31-2011, 09:57 AM
Please DO take it away. No one who matters gives a **** what you and the rest of the Tebonites think.

Thanks Macgruber. You added a lot to the discussion with that. Try not to interrupt the grownups while they're talking.

TailgateNut
08-31-2011, 09:58 AM
Not at all the 'truth,' it's ONLY your own much biased OPINION.

And your opinion is based of the barest of information.

And it's being processed by your own (maybe deficient) brain.

You don't have a clue about who I am, or what I know.

The TRUTH??? You can't handle the truth....

They currently are using practice to determine the starter, correct?

So tell me, is practice a better indicator than preseason games against a real opponent? (crickets)

And is there any advantage to using the starters over the scrubs in both practice and the games?

Put Orton with the scrubs for a week, and Tebow with the starters if you want an actual 'FAIR' evaluation of their relative QB'ing abilities.

I'm not biased FOR Tebow, he is simply a better QB than the other three on the roster imoho. :sunshine:

They (coaches/staff/owner) will start and play whomever they choose.
Fine with me, I never sports bet so it won't cost me a dime either way.

However, I would like to see what Tebow can do, so I would like to see them either play him or trade him.

And since THEY don't follow any boards, and THEY are never swayed by what any stupid fan says or wants, then what the heck does it matter anyway? ;)


LOL


Just another pissed off floridian!ROFL!

TailgateNut
08-31-2011, 09:59 AM
Thanks Macgruber. You added a lot to the discussion with that. Try not to interrupt the grownups while they're talking.


What's the matter. Didn't have your daily dose of Ganja today?

Beantown Bronco
08-31-2011, 10:04 AM
I'm convinced you haven't validly answered to my point.

I'll dumb it down even further for those in the cheaps seats.

Orton's larger sample size has shown him to be what I have repeatedly referred to as a "middle third" QB. In other words, he's somewhere between 10 and 20 right now. Tebow's sample size is too small to accurately rank him IMO, but for those that constantly point out that he's supposedly outperformed Tebow in that time, I'd respond like this: he has put up some competitive numbers, but he did so VERY inconsistently and did so only in instances where Orton has proven he can do the same or more. Specifically, padding his stats against the #32 ranked passing defense of the Texans during what for all intents and purposes was garbage time (according to all arguments I've seen against Orton) and against SD when they were in garbage time. He looked like garbage for most of the Oakland game and approximately half the Texan and SD games.

So, forgive me for not anointing someone the starter off of 3-4 quarters of solid play against the league's worst pass defense and another that was in prevent mode. Especially when the coaches seem to be on the same page.

Cito Pelon
08-31-2011, 10:05 AM
HOF'r Roger Staubach had to sit the bench a couple of years also, and Tebow reminds me of Staubach.