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View Full Version : QB Depth Chart - Another Example of Pauper Patty Bowlen?


Drek
08-21-2011, 04:51 AM
From Woody's recent column (http://www.denverpost.com/paige/ci_18721489) about when Tebow will start:

Orton and Quinn become unrestricted free agents after this year. Orton will be paid $8.4 million (including a $1.5 mil roster bonus he received when he reported to camp). Quinn enters the final season of the five-year contract he signed as the Browns' 2007 first-round pick. He is guaranteed $700,000 but will earn another $5.95 million if he plays 70 percent of the offensive plays.

Tebow, in the second season of a five-year contract, has been given a lump-sum payment of $6.28 million (an advance on salaries for four seasons), and will earn a $1.54 million bonus if he plays 45 percent of the snaps.

In one scenario for the Broncos if, say, they keep the three quarterbacks and Quinn were to start 12 games the outlay to quarterbacks would be more than $21 million, which is Manning money.

So Quinn has a nearly $6M escalator that he has to play 12 full games for. Tebow has a $1.5M escalator that he only needs to play a little under 6 games for.

That means if we can get by with Orton for just >4 games Quinn's escalator is unreachable. If Quinn can then make it through >2 games then so is Tebow's.

The alternative, Tebow as #2, leaves a VERY high chance that Orton can't finish 9 games healthy, at which point Tebow takes over and hits his $1.5M escalator.

Might also be the reason we supposedly refused a 3rd for Orton (insisting on a 2nd or better) as that puts Tebow and Quinn in competition. If Tebow were to get hurt in the first four games Quinn could easily hit his big escalator.

Instead those bonuses count as part of our cap number when in reality they'll never be earned.

Agamemnon
08-21-2011, 04:56 AM
Wouldn't trading Orton and starting Tebow have been the cheapest option though?

Yeah I'm pretty sure money isn't the driving force behind the stupidity we are witnessing.

Drek
08-21-2011, 06:10 AM
Wouldn't trading Orton and starting Tebow have been the cheapest option though?

Yeah I'm pretty sure money isn't the driving force behind the stupidity we are witnessing.

What if Tebow's physical style of play led to him getting hurt within the first four games? Then Quinn starts and gets his $6M bonus.

Keeping Orton is the most expensive option up front, but it also protects the Tebow marketing machine and lets the FO use Quinn's and Tebow's bonuses as cap filler to look like they're actually semi-close to the real cap number.

Quinn plus his option is almost as expensive as Orton. Tebow's incentive is fairly easily reached if he was given the starting job out of camp. Both would be big fat singular cash outlays from Bowlen whereas Orton is mostly just game checks that will be off-set by stadium income week to week.

tnedator
08-21-2011, 06:43 AM
What if Tebow's physical style of play led to him getting hurt within the first four games? Then Quinn starts and gets his $6M bonus.

Keeping Orton is the most expensive option up front, but it also protects the Tebow marketing machine and lets the FO use Quinn's and Tebow's bonuses as cap filler to look like they're actually semi-close to the real cap number.

Quinn plus his option is almost as expensive as Orton. Tebow's incentive is fairly easily reached if he was given the starting job out of camp. Both would be big fat singular cash outlays from Bowlen whereas Orton is mostly just game checks that will be off-set by stadium income week to week.

Trading Orton would have saved the team nearly $9 million dollars, so even if Quinn and Tebow hit their escalators, they would have been better of cash wise than paying Orton. Your line of reasoning doesn't seem to hold up.

Drek
08-21-2011, 07:07 AM
Trading Orton would have saved the team nearly $9 million dollars, so even if Quinn and Tebow hit their escalators, they would have been better of cash wise than paying Orton. Your line of reasoning doesn't seem to hold up.

As I said in the previous post you quoted, most of Orton's pay is game checks. Smaller sums paid regularly through the season as Bowlen is getting steady cash flow from the stadium.

Both Quinn and Tebow are looking at large lump sum bonuses paid at the end of the season where Bowlen's cash stream has dried up.

In theory he could save that money throughout the season and be able to pay their bonuses, but given that we're a top 10 earning team in the league with bottom 10 cash assets I'd say its safe to assume the concept of "saving" isn't real prevalent.

Also, it allows for a higher overall cap number to make it look like we're spending up to a competitive amount when just between our two backup QBs we have a phantom $7.5M cap filler that will never actually be paid.

Of course the ideal fiscal solution would be trading Orton and starting Tebow all season, accepting the $1.5M bonus he'd earn. But if Tebow can't make it for 30% of the season and Quinn finishes the last 70% they end up paying nearly as much for Tebow/Quinn/Delhomme (rumored vet addition) as they would for Orton/Tebow/Quinn. So its very possible they saw little financial incentive to trading Orton as a result, and were therefore less willing settle on compensation.

Regardless, the real point of this is that once you choose to keep Orton the best financial choice to then back him up with Quinn. Orton only needs to make it through >4 games for Quinn's bonus to be eliminated. If he gets hurt halfway into his 9th game Tebow could still reach his. So Quinn over Tebow on the depth chart is the safest financial choice for the season once you're tied to Orton.

tnedator
08-21-2011, 07:15 AM
As I said in the previous post you quoted, most of Orton's pay is game checks. Smaller sums paid regularly through the season as Bowlen is getting steady cash flow from the stadium.

Both Quinn and Tebow are looking at large lump sum bonuses paid at the end of the season where Bowlen's cash stream has dried up.

In theory he could save that money throughout the season and be able to pay their bonuses, but given that we're a top 10 earning team in the league with bottom 10 cash assets I'd say its safe to assume the concept of "saving" isn't real prevalent.

Also, it allows for a higher overall cap number to make it look like we're spending up to a competitive amount when just between our two backup QBs we have a phantom $7.5M cap filler that will never actually be paid.

Of course the ideal fiscal solution would be trading Orton and starting Tebow all season, accepting the $1.5M bonus he'd earn. But if Tebow can't make it for 30% of the season and Quinn finishes the last 70% they end up paying nearly as much for Tebow/Quinn/Delhomme (rumored vet addition) as they would for Orton/Tebow/Quinn. So its very possible they saw little financial incentive to trading Orton as a result, and were therefore less willing settle on compensation.

Regardless, the real point of this is that once you choose to keep Orton the best financial choice to then back him up with Quinn. Orton only needs to make it through >4 games for Quinn's bonus to be eliminated. If he gets hurt halfway into his 9th game Tebow could still reach his. So Quinn over Tebow on the depth chart is the safest financial choice for the season once you're tied to Orton.

Again, I have to disagree. Your paid weekly vs. paid at the end of the year doesn't seem to hold any water. First, they can accrue cash throughout the season for that regardless of your thoughts on their fiscal responsibility. Second, you don't know at what stages they get money from the league (TV, revenue sharing, etc.), so it might be 'easier' to pay at the end of the year.

Finally, unless those escalators fall under the category of "easily attained" then they would not count towards the cap. I'm not sure if a playing time escalator on a backup QB is considered easily attained.

Sorry, your theory simply doesn't hold water. Fact is, that if the Broncos are as fiscally inept as you say, trading a player they would have to pay weekly, for the option to defer salary until after the season (or whenever the escalators would kick in), is EXACTLY the kind of thing a fiscally irresponsible team would do -- defer, defer, defer.

The Joker
08-21-2011, 07:18 AM
The fact that Orton is playing the best of the 3, Quinn has been the second best and Tebow has played worse than them probably has something to do with it too.

They tried to trade Orton, nobody would give him the contract he wanted and now he's going to stay in Denver. Fox has to play him if he's been the best QB in practice and looked good in preseason too. Realistically we all know we're not going to win the Superbowl this year, but you can't just give up on the season and start an inferior (at present) quarterback before we've even played a meaningful game. You think the guys on our roster don't think they can be a winning team this year? You have to give them that shot, and since he's still here that means starting Orton. For now, at least.

Rock Chalk
08-21-2011, 07:58 AM
Wow Woody and you ****ing Teblowers are reachign deep now.

Tebow sucks, deal with it.

You guys hate HATE HATE ORton and yet your Golden Boy cannot beat him out in TC. At all. Not even ****ing close.

God your lives must suck.

OABB
08-21-2011, 08:00 AM
Wow Woody and you ****ing Teblowers are reachign deep now.

Tebow sucks, deal with it.

You guys hate HATE HATE ORton and yet your Golden Boy cannot beat him out in TC. At all. Not even ****ing close.

God your lives must suck.

only as a bronco fan in the regular season.

Rock Chalk
08-21-2011, 08:02 AM
only as a bronco fan in the regular season.

Pathetic. Try being a Jayhawk fan during football season.

Mogulseeker
08-21-2011, 08:06 AM
Wouldn't trading Orton and starting Tebow have been the cheapest option though?

Yeah I'm pretty sure money isn't the driving force behind the stupidity we are witnessing.

We'd still have to pay out the guaranteed amount of his salary (whatever that is). I think a significant chunk of that 8mil is guaranteed.

phibacka31
08-21-2011, 08:07 AM
I think Orton should start, but we need a longtime answer and I'm not sure we have that person on the roster...

jsco70
08-21-2011, 08:10 AM
God your lives must suck.

Strange...I was thinking the same about you. Such an angry internet poster and all.

As for the topic, interesting insight. It makes some sense but we'll never know the truth. Rep.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
08-21-2011, 08:15 AM
Efff you very much McDpi$h!t.

doonwise
08-21-2011, 08:59 AM
Doesn't anyone else think we are trying to move Quinn??

Pendejo
08-21-2011, 09:05 AM
Wow Woody and you ****ing Teblowers are reachign deep now.

Tebow sucks, deal with it.

You guys hate HATE HATE ORton and yet your Golden Boy cannot beat him out in TC. At all. Not even ****ing close.

God your lives must suck.

The guy's thoughts weren't so much about Orton as they were about the Donks being cheap/poor. You blathering jackass.

Gort
08-21-2011, 09:11 AM
What if Tebow's physical style of play led to him getting hurt within the first four games? Then Quinn starts and gets his $6M bonus.

Keeping Orton is the most expensive option up front, but it also protects the Tebow marketing machine and lets the FO use Quinn's and Tebow's bonuses as cap filler to look like they're actually semi-close to the real cap number.

Quinn plus his option is almost as expensive as Orton. Tebow's incentive is fairly easily reached if he was given the starting job out of camp. Both would be big fat singular cash outlays from Bowlen whereas Orton is mostly just game checks that will be off-set by stadium income week to week.

why does everyone harp on jersey sales? doesn't the NFL share all merchandising revenues equally? if so, the Broncos make as much off a Tebow jersey whether he plays here, in Buffalo, or in Seattle. same with every other team. am i wrong about this? i've always thought this was an "uneducated fan's" argument to make to explain why keeping Tebow was good for the Broncos that wasn't based on an actual understanding of revenues.

Hamrob
08-21-2011, 09:23 AM
Wow Woody and you ****ing Teblowers are reachign deep now.

Tebow sucks, deal with it.

You guys hate HATE HATE ORton and yet your Golden Boy cannot beat him out in TC. At all. Not even ****ing close.

God your lives must suck.I bet you still have a man crush on Trent Dilfer as well?

Drek
08-21-2011, 09:43 AM
why does everyone harp on jersey sales? doesn't the NFL share all merchandising revenues equally? if so, the Broncos make as much off a Tebow jersey whether he plays here, in Buffalo, or in Seattle. same with every other team. am i wrong about this? i've always thought this was an "uneducated fan's" argument to make to explain why keeping Tebow was good for the Broncos that wasn't based on an actual understanding of revenues.

Where do most jersey sales occur? In team stores. Where teams mark up the already high price of jerseys and the like even further, making ridiculous profit themselves before also getting a 1/32 cut on the league wide markup.

But that is not what I refer to when I say the Tim Tebow marketing machine. What happens if Orton leads the club to a rousing 2-6 start? People stop showing up. Sell out streaks end, blackouts occur, etc.. Massive loss of income. If the team goes 1-6 and fans start to show their displeasure with their wallets they can still be lured back with the promise if Tebow starting. He's a trump card they can tease throughout the season to keep fans showing up.

I'm personally just spit balling here on why the team seems to have no clue what they're doing with Tebow. I'm all for giving Quinn some higher leverage reps so we can see how he plays against 1st and 2nd teamers. But if they actually want Tebow to progress he needs time on the field, even if that is late in pre-season games against 3rd stringers.

They aren't doing that though. Instead Quinn always gets the lion's share of snaps in pre-season games, Orton takes pretty much all the first team snaps, and Tebow gets fragments of game time in which McCoy calls the most vanilla **** in the world.

You have to assume there is some ulterior motive that has them working so diligently to avoid their youngest, highest upside QB from actually getting to play football.