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HAT
08-21-2011, 03:45 PM
Nope

Of course, Griese's career QB rating is nearly 3 points higher than Orton's

:)

Nobody's calling Orton a franchise QB. ???

DrFate
08-21-2011, 03:45 PM
I doubt that's enough to justify starting Tebow. ;D

No, but it demonstrates a lack of a plan from the new (and allegedly improved regime). Suddenly Tebow's performance in his three starts and Orton's 6 years of mediocrity are ignored, and we get tales of how sharp Orton looks throwing while wearing a red jersey. It's disappointing.

DrFate
08-21-2011, 03:47 PM
Nobody's calling Orton a franchise QB. ???

Well, we agree on that. :~ohyah!:

I'm just tired of a small number of posters on this forum telling everyone that Orton is an above-average QB and that starting him is such a brilliant move.

MacGruder
08-21-2011, 04:17 PM
As a Bronco? Technically none.

He started 6-0 as a Bronco with a 9-1 TD/INT ratio and posted a QBR over 100 in 3 of those games....After suffering a dislocated finger that broke the skin in pre-season and playing with a glove.

I know there's no way you'd know this since your "Bronco fandom" began in April 2010.

He should've missed the AZ game last year but Studes didn't have the balls to bench him for the injury until the front office gave the go ahead for Tebow's debut.

You are missing the point.. the point I was trying to make is that Orton's lack of durability doesn't cause him to miss games.. it causes him to fetal and suck and when he gets hit he can't function near as well as he normally does.. and this is compounded throughout the season and and into the playoffs for Brady.

Brady is actually even more fragile than Orton.. he is just much more talneted and much smarter... and he's a winner. But beli's system makes it work.. and his ability to coach nd bring out the best in Brady. McD did this a lot with Orton too.. Beli would do it even more with Tebow..

baja
08-21-2011, 07:28 PM
Right on. I didn't know you had admitted the joke. I told everyone that the SEC thing was a joke on your part, during that epic 100+ page thread. The one that fools thought you and Baja were one in the same.


But but but rev assured us many times he was positive MacGruder and I were one and the same poste and after all he is The Reverend and a 33 degree mason.

I do hope someone besides me appreciates the humor of this.

Jay3
08-21-2011, 08:42 PM
My thoughts -- I can't figure it out at all. I've watched the NFL my whole life. And I have seen absolute walking dumpster fire QB's getting PLENTY of reps in preseason games. They just put them out there to get them comfortable and see what they can do.

It's puzzling to see them keeping chains on Tebow. Time will tell.

MacGruder
08-21-2011, 08:50 PM
That's a good point Jay.. that is the funniest part of this whole thing.. including all the critics hate of Tebow. When you look around at the QBs playing in the league to claim Tebow is so awful and has no chance of playing QB it's ludicrous.

BTW.. what are your impressions after seeing Cam last? How are you feeling on him? Same or getting doubts at all? I think it's going to get rough for him but you never can tell sometimes.

Jay3
08-21-2011, 09:03 PM
BTW.. what are your impressions after seeing Cam last? How are you feeling on him? Same or getting doubts at all? I think it's going to get rough for him but you never can tell sometimes.

I didn't see it. I've been out of town. I'm really conflicted about Cam, because I hate his guts, but he looks good to my eye.

But candidly, I tend to be one who thinks running quarterbacks are valuable. I was high on Vick, and for years didn't really get vindicated. I tend to be a sucker for the athletic mobile qb's.

Maybe Cam will struggle, but it's way to early to tell. Tebow's the only player that gets his every move pounced on. The rest of them kind of suck for a couple of years anyway.

HAT
08-21-2011, 09:09 PM
My thoughts -- I can't figure it out at all. I've watched the NFL my whole life. And I have seen absolute walking dumpster fire QB's getting PLENTY of reps in preseason games. They just put them out there to get them comfortable and see what they can do.

It's puzzling to see them keeping chains on Tebow. Time will tell.

"They" aren't putting chains on anybody.....They're hiding him until the unleashment,,,,,,Yes, unleashment is a word.

MacGruder
08-21-2011, 09:16 PM
I didn't see it. I've been out of town. I'm really conflicted about Cam, because I hate his guts, but he looks good to my eye.

But candidly, I tend to be one who thinks running quarterbacks are valuable. I was high on Vick, and for years didn't really get vindicated. I tend to be a sucker for the athletic mobile qb's.

I feel the same way... that's probably no mystery though from arguing with people on here so much. I think athletic QBs are a revolution that should have happened long ago. My view: I don't think Cam is a runner or Qb. haha

This is why I am so shocked he was rated so highly and Tebow rated so low. I feel it's because Cam "looks" the part in both categories and Tebow doesn't, even to the "trained eye". And I think people rated Tebow's team around him WAY to high and Cam's way too low. So it's like a total confluence of craziness.

Maybe Cam will struggle, but it's way to early to tell. Tebow's the only player that gets his every move pounced on. The rest of them kind of suck for a couple of years anyway.

That's true.. but cam is the number one pick. everyone seems to have more time than Tebow but he might not get long because of that high pick.

It's funny though because wasn't it Mike Shula who is Cam's QB coach that tried to recruit Tebow out of high school.. and then you have Rivera who coached against Tebow in that last game last season - had to defend him. I wonder what Rivera thought of Tebow after that and if he his view of Tebow had any impact on taking Cam?

ZONA
08-21-2011, 09:28 PM
I would hope the plan for him is to sit him until he's ready to be an NFL QB. That's clearly at least a year away, probably two, and maybe never. I want the guy to succeed as much as anyone, but put the emotion aside and you'll realize it's not a horrible thing for him to sit and work his ass off and hopefully develop the skills he needs to succeed.

Sitting him now does not mean he will be thrown on the trash heap only to win 4 rings for some other team. It doesn't mean he will never succeed.

And it surely doesn't mean the coaching staff is dicking him around. In fact, I would not be surprised if he's #2 again next week and Quinn doesn't play at all after the starters get their long stint. Tebow and Quinn have been in a rotation with the 2's all camp; I doubt it changes next week.


Thank you. Somebody who isn't over reacting to the situation. Quinn was also a 1st round pick when he came out and he really never got much of a chance to develop in Cleveland. He's had some time to sit back now and learn some things and he's looking like an improved QB. It could take the same thing for Tebow. It is frustrating from a fans standpoint this 3 headed QB but it's hard to argue for them playing Orton right now. He looks very sharp and you're only going to retain or help increase his value if he's playing and playing good. I think keeping all 3 guys again this year is not a bad thing. The competition is going to keep making all 3 of them better players.

~Crash~
08-21-2011, 09:38 PM
If he isn't going to get reps in practice and he isn't going to get snaps in pre-season games, there is no 'development'. Just release him.
\
what tebow needs has not thing to do with game time so cut the kid some slack. time during a full off season seem to be what he needs .Something he has yet to see.

broncocalijohn
08-21-2011, 09:43 PM
\
what tebow needs has not thing to do with game time so cut the kid some slack. time during a full off season seem to be what he needs .Something he has yet to see.

I am going to chalk this post up to using a smart phone. Ironic smart phones make most of us look pretty dumb.

MacGruder
08-21-2011, 09:43 PM
\
what tebow needs has not thing to do with game time so cut the kid some slack. time during a full off season seem to be what he needs .Something he has yet to see.

I think he needs to play.. I think him having to continually sit all this time is hurting him. Tebow is a very instinctual player. damage that and you take away what makes him so great.

That is why Urban Meyer said recently that if they try to immediately force him to be a pocket QB it's not going to work. It needs to be a gradual thing. I think Elway doesn't want to go through the growing pains with Tebow he went through himself ironically.

broncocalijohn
08-21-2011, 09:46 PM
...Anyone remember when we had a young franchise QB coming off a pro bowl season and then we ripped the entire ****ing team apart from the top down?

Good times.

I remember having a QB that came off of a AFC Championship appearance and drafted a young snobbie kid to start taking his place. I also remember when we took him in the first round when we could have attacked defensive problems.

Good times.

Jay3
08-21-2011, 09:53 PM
It's funny though because wasn't it Mike Shula who is Cam's QB coach that tried to recruit Tebow out of high school.. and then you have Rivera who coached against Tebow in that last game last season - had to defend him. I wonder what Rivera thought of Tebow after that and if he his view of Tebow had any impact on taking Cam?

Yes, it's Shula. And they are all in. True believers. That's what it will take to develop Cam, and it's what is needed for Tebow.

The whole point is to utilize his special skills to balance the offense. The idea of throwing either Cam or Tebow out there without that is crazy.

orange 4 life
08-21-2011, 10:06 PM
You're losing me dude. Explain to me, how going 9-11 for 101yds in the first 2 preseason games....indicates that Tebow can't execute?

If you watched the games you know how INCREDIBLY misleading those stats are. He played mediocre AT BEST.
He has no ability to check off his initial receiver, chooses to run instead of looking for a 2nd or 3rd option, and all accuracy and mechanics aside he stands in the pocket way too long leading to sacks.
He's played right at the level he's at. A third string qb.

And given how great Orton looks (he was impressive last year with bad coaching and no running game. He could be in the probowl with that changed) it's absolutely amazing that ANYONE would want to see Tebow in there.
To think he would outplay Orton is just ludicrous and everyone within the organization (players, coaches, and even media pundits) or around it knows it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

orange 4 life
08-21-2011, 10:11 PM
Nobody's calling Orton a franchise QB. ???

Depends on the definition.
If you're talking about one of the elite few then of course not.
If you're talking about a guy you know can compete at a high level (upper half and maybe top ten) for many years to come then sure, he's a "franchise" QB. A lot of people are going to be surprised this year. Just my .02.

bigbucks24
08-22-2011, 03:12 AM
You guys talk about Tebow like the ESPN announcers used to talk about Favre. "It's Monday Night football, with Brett Favre's Minnesota Vikings against the team that Brett used to play for, the Green Bay Packers." "And Brett Favre throws a pass to the guy who is supposed to catch the passes that Brett Favre throws." We should start calling them the Denver Tebows, because I think some people like Tebow more than you like the Broncos. They would rather lose with Orton than win with Tebow.

TheReverend
08-22-2011, 05:47 AM
You guys talk about Tebow like the ESPN announcers used to talk about Favre. "It's Monday Night football, with Brett Favre's Minnesota Vikings against the team that Brett used to play for, the Green Bay Packers." "And Brett Favre throws a pass to the guy who is supposed to catch the passes that Brett Favre throws." We should start calling them the Denver Tebows, because I think some people like Tebow more than you like the Broncos. They would rather lose with Orton than win with Tebow.

...what?

canadianbroncosfan
08-22-2011, 06:09 AM
If you watched the games you know how INCREDIBLY misleading those stats are. He played mediocre AT BEST.
He has no ability to check off his initial receiver, chooses to run instead of looking for a 2nd or 3rd option, and all accuracy and mechanics aside he stands in the pocket way too long leading to sacks.
He's played right at the level he's at. A third string qb.

And given how great Orton looks (he was impressive last year with bad coaching and no running game. He could be in the probowl with that changed) it's absolutely amazing that ANYONE would want to see Tebow in there.
To think he would outplay Orton is just ludicrous and everyone within the organization (players, coaches, and even media pundits) or around it knows it beyond a shadow of a doubt.


Misleading were Orton's stats. A large majority of his yards were YAC by Moreno and McGahee not to mention an absolute brilliant catch by Brandon Lloyd for 15 yards on an absolutely terrible thrown ball by Orton in Q1.

One of the first drives of the game's defined how Orton plays to me. Broncos are 3rd and 14 and Orton throws a four yard pass to Royal who has three defenders surrounding him with absolutely no chance of reaching a first down. He worries more about his completion % than getting first downs.

montrose
08-22-2011, 07:21 AM
To answer the thread title, I don't think there is one. I think, before opening camp, the Broncos were down with fufilling Orton's trade request and seeing what Tebow could do this season. When Miami wouldn't give him Kevin Kolb-money and all the other QB spots were filled, the Broncos had no choice but to put him on the practice field and because Orton practiced well and Tebow didn't - it changed their immediate plans. At this point I wouldn't be stunned if all 3 QBs are gone next season but right now I'd almost think the possibility of Orton back on a Franchise Tag is more likely than Tebow sticking - although Tebow's contract and now percieved low-value could make it difficult to trade him and I wouldn't even be stunned if he was eventually released.

The bottom line is for Broncos fans, if you wanted Tim Tebow as your QB then Josh McDaniels had to be your coach, IMO. That was obviously unacceptable to the fanbase so part of the package deal in losing McD was not playing Tebow either. Looking back, it should've been pretty obvious the day Elway hired Fox it was unlikely (not impossible, but unlikely) Tebow was going to be the guy here. Because of his unique skillset, at this point in his career he needs, IMO, a McD/Shanny/Kubiak/Gruden/Holmgren type of QB developer to improve his weaknesses and develop and offense to his strengths - instead he got Mike McCoy and Adam Gase. No offense to those guys but writing on the wall was likely at that point. With all that, they were still apparently ready to hand him the job - and since that fell through now he's relegated to splitting reps handing off with Adam Weber on the scout team.

DrFate
08-22-2011, 07:23 AM
Do you think Denver drafts a QB in the first in 2012, montrose?

WolfpackGuy
08-22-2011, 07:23 AM
I'd like to have those picks back that were unnecessarily traded.

What a ****** waste among many wasteful moves made by McClueless.

montrose
08-22-2011, 07:43 AM
Do you think Denver drafts a QB in the first in 2012, montrose?

My initial guess is no. I'm sure Elway would love Luck but this year's #1 pick (especially with the adjusted rookie cap) might just be the most valuable of this era so its unlikely Denver could deal for it and right now I don't think they'll be the worst team in the league.

For me this is where it gets odd because you have a HOF QB running the organization but a HC whose defensive minded and I look at as one of the last guys who'd want to develop a young signal caller. So while Elway may really fall in love with a kid and flex his muscles to draft him, I'd find it unlikely at this time. The thing that hit me last week - and it makes it all the more suprising now considering Denver was willing to let him go for a mid-round pick if Miami would give him Kolb-money - is that Kyle Orton seems to me like the DREAM QB for John Fox. Now the one thing that could dispute this were Fox's comments about wanting a "gamer that plays better than he practices" but looking back on it now I think we can see he was preparing everyone for Tebow because he was told Orton would be dealt. Now that he's saddled with Orton, we can argue he's easily the best passer Fox has ever coached. He's a veteran who has a history of not killing his team with mistakes, is a team guy whose never complained about wanting to put up more passes and he's already fluent in the offense. Coming off his worst year ever with a rookie signal caller in Clausen, I can see why Fox would fall in love with his 28-year old, experiened signal caller. Now I'm not sure where Elway comes in on this because you'd think a great QB like that would want a great QB to develop himself - but as far as Fox goes, I can absolutly see why he likes Orton so much. Now once the real games get flying and Orton chokes away a few games Fox's defense keeps the team in (see Jax, SF, StL, NYJ, @KC games last season) perhaps he begins longing for the days of Jake Delhomme's awkward but gritty style.

With all that DrFate, I think fans in Denver need to realize that the compromise of finally hiring an experienced, defensive-minded HC is that it may not be the most qualified staff to develop a QB which is why I could see them taking a mid-round project before a 1st rounder... but I could be wrong - hell look at what TB's doing with Josh Freeman! In regards to Tebow though, I think his days as Denver's future were probably over the day McD got fired. All the signs were there from Elway's comments, to Fox's hiring... since they couldn't hand him the job he's going to have to be so productive in a style not suited to him to win it I just find it unlikely.

DrFate
08-22-2011, 07:53 AM
Thanks for your great post, montrose. I don't see them giving Orton that Kolb-like contract under an circumstances, but the franchise tag had not ocurred to me. And I think Tebow is done here.

Maybe my opinion of drafting a QB in round 1 in 2012 is biased by my disdain of Orton and the hope that we could get a top tier player at the position for the next 10 years. :(

montrose
08-22-2011, 08:09 AM
Thanks for your great post, montrose. I don't see them giving Orton that Kolb-like contract under an circumstances, but the franchise tag had not ocurred to me. And I think Tebow is done here.

Maybe my opinion of drafting a QB in round 1 in 2012 is biased by my disdain of Orton and the hope that we could get a top tier player at the position for the next 10 years. :(

Easy to think that way, just remember that the man Elway entrusted as HC is not a Josh McDaniels, Mike Shanahan or even Dan Reeves - he's a defensive-minded guy. Doesn't mean they couldn't invest to get that franchise QB but I think developing a top tier defense is truly their #1 priority, even more than QB!

bendog
08-22-2011, 08:15 AM
Earth and Tebow should not be used in the same sentence, unless "save" is also present.

Jay3
08-22-2011, 08:23 AM
Thanks for your great post, montrose. I don't see them giving Orton that Kolb-like contract under an circumstances, but the franchise tag had not ocurred to me.

But if they franchise him, they'll have to pay him Kolb-like money for at least one year. Franchised players get paid something like the average of the top 5 players at their position.

So Orton would get the average of the salaries of Peyton, Brady, etc. (whatever the top 5 are).

DrFate
08-22-2011, 08:26 AM
But if they franchise him, they'll have to pay him Kolb-like money for at least one year. Franchised players get paid something like the average of the top 5 players at their position.

So Orton would get the average of the salaries of Peyton, Brady, etc. (whatever the top 5 are).

I understand that - but the reports were that Orton nixed the MIA deal because he wanted something like Kolb got (6 year, $60mil)

I don't think they'll offer that kind of contract to Orton. For another stopgap year, maybe.

TailgateNut
08-22-2011, 08:43 AM
Easy to think that way, just remember that the man Elway entrusted as HC is not a Josh McDaniels, Mike Shanahan or even Dan Reeves - he's a defensive-minded guy. Doesn't mean they couldn't invest to get that franchise QB but I think developing a top tier defense is truly their #1 priority, even more than QB!

Having a top teir defense would make a QB like Orton or Quinn a valuable asset. Just click along on the offense scoring nominal points without to many mistakes and turnovers and shut them down on D. ( a winning combination but not too EXITING for thrill seekers/tebownites). I'm ok with a hardnosed D and marginal but productive O.:thanku:

bendog
08-22-2011, 08:48 AM
But I think there's always a guy like Hasselback floating around. Kerry Collins was similar. And cheap. Guys who can play fairly competently while a young guy is groomed. I'll be surprised if Mallet is much better than Leftwich, but that Kaepernick could work out.

Either Tebow shows in practice he can make the reads, or Elway will look for a guy like that.

Steve Sewell
08-22-2011, 08:58 AM
But I think there's always a guy like Hasselback floating around. Kerry Collins was similar. And cheap. Guys who can play fairly competently while a young guy is groomed. I'll be surprised if Mallet is much better than Leftwich, but that Kaepernick could work out.

Either Tebow shows in practice he can make the reads, or Elway will look for a guy like that.

I think this is Orton's last year here. Is Quinn's contract up as well after this season?

If so, I see it as the franchise giving Tebow another year to see if he can develop into a guy that can make multiple reads and throw with accuracy from the pocket. They'll likely draft a guy and/or re-sign Quinn and open up the competition.

This is all assuming that the Broncos don't make the playoffs this year. I'm hearing more and more talk about how the situation in Denver isn't so dire from a personnel standpoint, and while I agree that this is a better team than the 4-12 showing from last year, I will be SHOCKED if the Broncos make the playoffs.

montrose
08-22-2011, 09:07 AM
But if they franchise him, they'll have to pay him Kolb-like money for at least one year. Franchised players get paid something like the average of the top 5 players at their position.

So Orton would get the average of the salaries of Peyton, Brady, etc. (whatever the top 5 are).

It would be a very high amount, but based on Orton's reported demands - he's not taking some 1-2 year extention even for 8-9 million, IMO. You either franchise him or he leaves to sucker a team into a longer deal. I think it's become apparent the most important thing to Kyle is the security that he's a long-term starter with a team. Not sure if Denver is that franchise, it could be - just don't know yet.

montrose
08-22-2011, 09:13 AM
Having a top teir defense would make a QB like Orton or Quinn a valuable asset. Just click along on the offense scoring nominal points without to many mistakes and turnovers and shut them down on D. ( a winning combination but not too EXITING for thrill seekers/tebownites). I'm ok with a hardnosed D and marginal but productive O.:thanku:

It's a formula that has worked in the past, if the Kyle Orton that plays in the preseason and against prevent defenses is the same one that can play in the 4th quarter of a tight game - it could work. I don't doubt Orton has the abilities to be succesful with that formula it's just that there were some games last season (Jax, NYJ, SF, StL, @KC come to my mind) that he wasn't able to do it. Now if he can take that step and become that player you may really have something with this formula - but regardless of how good your defense is (hell even if its 2000 Ravens good which is damn near impossible in todays game, IMO) your still going to need a QB to make plays for you in the 4th quarter to win the game. It's a QB-driven league. Can Orton do it? That's the big question...

Either Tebow shows in practice he can make the reads, or Elway will look for a guy like that.

Bingo, bingo, bingo. Tim Tebow will not start for John Fox, IMO, until he at least matches Kyle Orton's ability to read a defense, make conservative decisions and throw accurately from the pocket - in a practice setting. Essentially, he has to "Out Kyle Orton"-Kyle Orton. You may argue it's stupid, I know I do, but it's the way it's going to be.

Steve Sewell
08-22-2011, 09:14 AM
It would be a very high amount, but based on Orton's reported demands - he's not taking some 1-2 year extention even for 8-9 million, IMO. You either franchise him or he leaves to sucker a team into a longer deal. I think it's become apparent the most important thing to Kyle is the security that he's a long-term starter with a team. Not sure if Denver is that franchise, it could be - just don't know yet.

Orton has the numbers to put behind his desire for a long-term starter deal. He's a big guy, nice arm, very accurate, doesn't make a lot of mistakes. However, he runs into problems when teams watch the tape of him in situations where the QB has to make a play for his team. To me he's always going to be the guy a team brings in to bring stability to a rough QB situation, but never the guy who a franchise commits to building around. Trying to think of some comparisons...Kerry Collins comes to mind.

montrose
08-22-2011, 09:16 AM
Orton has the numbers to put behind his desire for a long-term starter deal. He's a big guy, nice arm, very accurate, doesn't make a lot of mistakes. However, he runs into problems when teams watch the tape of him in situations where the QB has to make a play for his team. To me he's always going to be the guy a team brings in to bring stability to a rough QB situation, but never the guy who a franchise commits to building around. Trying to think of some comparisons...Kerry Collins comes to mind.

That's what I think too, one of the major factors that throws a crux in this thing is no team in the league values Kyle Orton as highly as Kyle Orton views himself.

Jay3
08-22-2011, 09:16 AM
Orton has the numbers to put behind his desire for a long-term starter deal. He's a big guy, nice arm, very accurate, doesn't make a lot of mistakes. However, he runs into problems when teams watch the tape of him in situations where the QB has to make a play for his team. To me he's always going to be the guy a team brings in to bring stability to a rough QB situation, but never the guy who a franchise commits to building around. Trying to think of some comparisons...Kerry Collins comes to mind.

Orton is Jake Delhomme to a tee.

dizz
08-22-2011, 09:18 AM
Colin Cowturd had some things to say about the Tebow situation today. He claimed someone (he didn't want to name names) who is close to the Broncos brass and sometimes does some work for ESPN, told him that the Tim Tebow experiment is over. Dunno what that means exactly but yeah that's what he said

DrFate
08-22-2011, 09:23 AM
Orton is Jake Delhomme to a tee.

My recollection is that Delhomme was a little more athletic than Orton - but that's just me

TailgateNut
08-22-2011, 09:24 AM
It's a formula that has worked in the past, if the Kyle Orton that plays in the preseason and against prevent defenses is the same one that can play in the 4th quarter of a tight game - it could work. I don't doubt Orton has the abilities to be succesful with that formula it's just that there were some games last season (Jax, NYJ, SF, StL, @KC come to my mind) that he wasn't able to do it. Now if he can take that step and become that player you may really have something with this formula - but regardless of how good your defense is (hell even if its 2000 Ravens good which is damn near impossible in todays game, IMO) your still going to need a QB to make plays for you in the 4th quarter to win the game. It's a QB-driven league. Can Orton do it? That's the big question...



Bingo, bingo, bingo. Tim Tebow will not start for John Fox, IMO, until he at least matches Kyle Orton's ability to read a defense, make conservative decisions and throw accurately from the pocket - in a practice setting. Essentially, he has to "Out Kyle Orton"-Kyle Orton. You may argue it's stupid, I know I do, but it's the way it's going to be.


That's the point I made to Miles this weekend. Sure it's Fun to see an existing play from the QB, but the position demands control and knowledge, not just swift feet and the illusion of invincibility.

montrose
08-22-2011, 09:26 AM
My recollection is that Delhomme was a little more athletic than Orton - but that's just me

He was, and he was a scrappy little gamer - a lot different from Orton, IMO.

TailgateNut
08-22-2011, 09:26 AM
Colin Cowturd had some things to say about the Tebow situation today. He claimed someone (he didn't want to name names) who is close to the Broncos brass and sometimes does some work for ESPN, told him that the Tim Tebow experiment is over. Dunno what that means exactly but yeah that's what he said


I would hate the thought of the wasted pick, which I thought WAS a waste when we drafted him, but it would MAKE MY DAY.

Just think of the fire sale on #15 jerseys:rofl:

TheReverend
08-22-2011, 09:29 AM
I would hate the thought of the wasted pick, which I thought WAS a waste when we drafted him, but it would MAKE MY DAY.

Just think of the fire sale on #15 jerseys:rofl:

"You're no fan" - TailgateNut, 2009.

DrFate
08-22-2011, 09:31 AM
I would hate the thought of the wasted pick, which I thought WAS a waste when we drafted him, but it would MAKE MY DAY.

Just think of the fire sale on #15 jerseys:rofl:

I've notified the fan police - they should be there shortly.

asshat...

TailgateNut
08-22-2011, 09:32 AM
"You're no fan" - TailgateNut, 2009.

WTF are you talking about, you stupid ****ing leatherneck. (oh sorry, you scored well on your entrance exam. I should substitute ignorant for stupid);D

baja
08-22-2011, 09:36 AM
WTF are you talking about, you stupid ****ing leatherneck. (oh sorry, you scored well on your entrance exam. I should substitute ignorant for stupid);D

Entrance to what, the lobster?

bendog
08-22-2011, 09:38 AM
in a practice setting.[/I] Essentially, he has to "Out Kyle Orton"-Kyle Orton. You may argue it's stupid, I know I do, but it's the way it's going to be.

I don't think Tebow has to be better. The Post reported that teams thought they could take away Tebow's first read, and if they did, he'd just take off. And he was locking onto a reciever even before the snap. That's pretty consistent with what the former regieme did in gimmicking up the offense for him. He had one reciever, and he had to read whether the corner was taking away the sideline or inside, and he had to get the ball there before the safety came over. He had to make that read, and if he didn't see an opening, he improvised. He was also in shotgun on non passing downs.

Fox isn't gonna play him if that's all he can do. No credible coach will because any NFL defense will just take away his one read by playing a cover two. Linebackers are bigger and faster than Tebow. Vick was faster and more elusive, and even he's had to learn to make plays in the pocket. Dove Valley wants happy campers, and Tebow is a feel good kinda story. But Dove Valley also wants Den to not be the laughig stock of NFL franchises.

Tebow's got to show he can take a snap, do a five step drop and make more than one read. If he's making the second one too slow, that's probably ok, if they think he'll get faster. They'll play him if he can show that. I think they'd have found a way to trade orton if he could show that. But he hasn't. And until he can, he's not gonna be an NFL qb no matter where he plays.

TheReverend
08-22-2011, 09:38 AM
WTF are you talking about, you stupid ****ing leatherneck. (oh sorry, you scored well on your entrance exam. I should substitute ignorant for stupid);D

Well, you had your pom poms out full force for McD and calling people who didn't support those moves out on their fandom.

Now you're openly saying a Bronco player not succeeding would make your day.

Not bothered, just illuminating the hypocrisy.

TailgateNut
08-22-2011, 09:47 AM
I've notified the fan police - they should be there shortly.

asshat...


I think it would be funny as **** if all those Teblowers ended up with a worthless wall mount for thinking that TimBow was a guaranteed 1st ballot for HOFer and going out an plopping down cashola for his jersey. Just like all the Cutlerites. :rofl:


You wanna be part of the "in crowd" go ahead and plunk down the money on someone who may not be here in the near future, be my guest. Don't expect any sympathy from me, and no, I'm not interested in a cheap TimBow jersey.

TailgateNut
08-22-2011, 09:50 AM
Well, you had your pom poms out full force for McD and calling people who didn't support those moves out on their fandom.

Now you're openly saying a Bronco player not succeeding would make your day.

Not bothered, just illuminating the hypocrisy.


Blah, blah, blah. I didn't want the mother****er on the team in the first place. He was a waste of picks, and still is a waste of roster space.

TheReverend
08-22-2011, 09:51 AM
Blah, blah, blah. I didn't want the mother****er on the team in the first place. He was a waste of picks, and still is a waste of roster space.

Blah, blah, blah. I didn't want the mother ****ing coach on the team in the first place. All he did was dismantle the franchise.

Didn't stop you from claiming I wasn't a fan. Definitely not stooping to your level now, but can you at least recognize how stupid that was?

DrFate
08-22-2011, 09:52 AM
but can you at least recognize how stupid that was?

My money is on 'no'

TailgateNut
08-22-2011, 09:58 AM
Blah, blah, blah. I didn't want the mother ****ing coach on the team in the first place. All he did was dismantle the franchise.

Didn't stop you from claiming I wasn't a fan. Definitely not stooping to your level now, but can you at least recognize how stupid that was?

Touche' or is it Douche'?;D

TailgateNut
08-22-2011, 09:59 AM
My money is on 'no'


Oh go STFU and continue your Tebow circle jerk with the rest of the clowns.

TheReverend
08-22-2011, 10:00 AM
Touche' or is it Douche'?;D

...sigh.

Well progress is progress. I'll call that a day.

strafen
08-22-2011, 10:00 AM
Orton has the numbers to put behind his desire for a long-term starter deal. He's a big guy, nice arm, very accurate, doesn't make a lot of mistakes. However, he runs into problems when teams watch the tape of him in situations where the QB has to make a play for his team. To me he's always going to be the guy a team brings in to bring stability to a rough QB situation, but never the guy who a franchise commits to building around. Trying to think of some comparisons...Kerry Collins comes to mind.We'd better play we jump on the score first and play with a lead for at least2-3 quarters, because playing when we're behind in the score, is when Orton truly shows his colors. He sucks!

strafen
08-22-2011, 10:02 AM
...sigh.

Well progress is progress. I'll call that a day.Man, don't quote that m'fer, I've got him on ignore.
TGN is a ****ing putz, and a freakin' wuss!

errand
08-22-2011, 10:04 AM
If Orton had done anything of note, he wouldn't have been benched for the playoffs in his only successful season in Chicago.

Going with Grossman who was a vet and 1st round pick over Orton who was a rookie was Lovie playinh the percentages......very few coaches wouldn't done the same thing

TheDave
08-22-2011, 10:05 AM
Sorry but I just don't have what it takes to read 8+ pages that have probably been MacGrubbered' several times...

FWIW...

What on Earth is the Plan with Tebow?

This year, the plan is to make him the #3/spread option QB on the team. Yes #3... Unfortunately if you want 1 game plan going into the week BQ needs to be your backup. At this point everyone needs to come to the conclusion that Tim needs a specific offense built to suit his very unique talents. Him pretending to be Orton is a waste of time and talent.

Is that Denver?... Do we actually have what it takes to try something new? We will just have to wait and see.

In the mean time, he is the #3 who probably gets 10+ plays every game. Mind you this is a perfect opportunity for a new staff to figure out what works and what doesn't. Remember, this is a new staff with a very new and an EXTREMELY unique talent. Lets give them some time to get to know each other. For tebow this is 10+ plays a game at crucial times... Goal Line, 3rd and anything (areas where Orton is weak).

This is good for everyone... Especially the Broncos.

At the very least, tebow is an extremely effective red zone threat...I'm not sure why that is never mentioned. I know it's not 1st string QB glory, but he adds significant value to our team, and forces D-Coordinators accross the league to burn the midnight oil. Think of it from a draft value perspective... what would you give up to get a 7-10 year 15-20 td's per year talent? Personally I think he can be a pro QB as long as the staff is willing to design a system for him, but the downside of #3/spread option QB isn't so bad either.

DrFate
08-22-2011, 10:11 AM
Oh go STFU and continue your Tebow circle jerk with the rest of the clowns.

Your pithy contribution continues

Cito Pelon
08-22-2011, 10:22 AM
So being more productive than Orton as a starter leads you to believe he isn't ready?

I can't follow that logic.

I can see your logic. I realize going conservative with the "best option for winning" could be a mistake, but we'll just have to see how it plays out.

I just don't feel like getting too worked up about the QB situation anymore after Griese, Orton, Cutler, Frerotte, Bubby, Plummer, Jarious, Brandstater, Quinn, Simms, Beurlein, Tebow, etc.

But, I probably will at some point, what the hell.

Gort
08-22-2011, 10:25 AM
Oh go STFU and continue your Tebow circle jerk with the rest of the clowns.

if you replace "Tebow" with "McD", everything you write on this subject matches EXACTLY what JHNS wrote about McD.

congratulations! you are now at JHNS' level.

Satan is proud of you.

http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/gallery/al-davis-face/al-davis.jpg

Gort
08-22-2011, 10:29 AM
Sorry but I just don't have what it takes to read 8+ pages that have probably been MacGrubbered' several times...

FWIW...

What on Earth is the Plan with Tebow?

This year, the plan is to make him the #3/spread option QB on the team. Yes #3... Unfortunately if you want 1 game plan going into the week BQ needs to be your backup. At this point everyone needs to come to the conclusion that Tim needs a specific offense built to suit his very unique talents. Him pretending to be Orton is a waste of time and talent.

Is that Denver?... Do we actually have what it takes to try something new? We will just have to wait and see.

In the mean time, he is the #3 who probably gets 10+ plays every game. Mind you this is a perfect opportunity for a new staff to figure out what works and what doesn't. Remember, this is a new staff with a very new and an EXTREMELY unique talent. Lets give them some time to get to know each other. For tebow this is 10+ plays a game at crucial times... Goal Line, 3rd and anything (areas where Orton is weak).

This is good for everyone... Especially the Broncos.

At the very least, tebow is an extremely effective red zone threat...I'm not sure why that is never mentioned. I know it's not 1st string QB glory, but he adds significant value to our team, and forces D-Coordinators accross the league to burn the midnight oil. Think of it from a draft value perspective... what would you give up to get a 7-10 year 15-20 td's per year talent? Personally I think he can be a pro QB as long as the staff is willing to design a system for him, but the downside of #3/spread option QB isn't so bad either.

if Tebow is #3, he never sees the field this season. if he were #2, it would make more sense. however, the #3 runs the scout team. he gets ZERO development in the Broncos system because he's tasked with mimicking that week's opponent. if Tebow is #3 to start the season, then Elway/Fox are being clear that they don't want him and will be shopping him during the offseason. at least that's how i see it.

DrFate
08-22-2011, 10:31 AM
Hoge nearly took Schefter's head off on SC about Tebow. Hoge and Buccigross just both agreed Denver should cut Tebow. Schefter said Tebow played 'fairly well' in the three games last year and I thought Hoge was going to attack him.

:(

TailgateNut
08-22-2011, 10:34 AM
if you replace "Tebow" with "McD", everything you write on this subject matches EXACTLY what JHNS wrote about McD.

congratulations! you are now at JHNS' level.

Satan is proud of you.
http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/gallery/al-davis-face/al-davis.jpg


Like I said: CIRCLE JERK.

Show me where I said anything close to "Tebow has set the organization back years" or "Tebow is dfestroying this team", or......

Please do find those exact matches, dillwad. You're just upset JesusBoy isn't in the starting lineup but is instead bringing up the rear, as it should be.
Cry me a mother****ing river.Hilarious!

TheDave
08-22-2011, 10:35 AM
if Tebow is #3, he never sees the field this season. if he were #2, it would make more sense. however, the #3 runs the scout team. he gets ZERO development in the Broncos system because he's tasked with mimicking that week's opponent. if Tebow is #3 to start the season, then Elway/Fox are being clear that they don't want him and will be shopping him during the offseason. at least that's how i see it.

Once again we fail to mention his actual job on the team... He is our primary red zone threat, and he is good at it.

Stop worrying about whether or not he will be QB1 and use his significant skills to help our team now.

Like it or not, we are a better team in 2011 with orton as the starter and tebow as the "option" QB.

Gort
08-22-2011, 10:38 AM
Once again we fail to mention his actual job on the team... He is our primary red zone threat, and he is good at it.

Stop worrying about whether or not he will be QB1 and use his significant skills to help our team now.

Like it or not, we are a better team in 2011 with orton as the starter and tebow as the "option" QB.

Fox doesn't intend to use him in the red zone. mark my words. Tebow will not see any regular season action if he's the #3.

DrFate
08-22-2011, 10:39 AM
Fox doesn't intend to use him in the red zone. mark my words. Tebow will not see any regular season action if he's the #3.

I think this is true.

Gort
08-22-2011, 10:40 AM
Like I said: CIRCLE JERK.

Show me where I said anything close to "Tebow has set the organization back years" or "Tebow is dfestroying this team", or......

Please do find those exact matches, dillwad. You're just upset JesusBoy isn't in the starting lineup but is instead bringing up the rear, as it should be.
Cry me a mother****ing river.Hilarious!

you are EXACTLY like JHNS. irrational and immune to all arguments. your hatred of Tebow rivals JHNS' hatred of McD. in fact, it's so emotion-based and illogical that you might actually be a girl!

do you ever find yourself watching Oprah reruns late at night?

TailgateNut
08-22-2011, 10:42 AM
if Tebow is #3, he never sees the field this season. if he were #2, it would make more sense. however, the #3 runs the scout team. he gets ZERO development in the Broncos system because he's tasked with mimicking that week's opponent. if Tebow is #3 to start the season, then Elway/Fox are being clear that they don't want him and will be shopping him during the offseason. at least that's how i see it.

Well, if the little ****er can't implement our game plan, maybe he can act like one of our opponents' QB. Here sure the hell can't handle the difficult job of being a QB for the Broncos.

Too bad he isn't good trade bait, cause he still sucks and is untrainable.

alkemical
08-22-2011, 10:42 AM
I think all 300 Tebow threads should be bumped.

Gort
08-22-2011, 10:43 AM
Well, if the little ****er can't implement our game plan, maybe he can act like one of our opponents' QB. Here sure the hell can't handle the difficult job of being a QB for the Broncos.

Too bad he isn't good trade bait, cause he still sucks and is untrainable.

you can stop campaigning. you've already locked up the "OM douchebag of the month award for August 2011".

DrFate
08-22-2011, 10:45 AM
you can stop campaigning. you've already locked up the "OM douchebag of the month award for August 2011".

I think it's more of a lifetime achievement thing LOL

Cito Pelon
08-22-2011, 10:46 AM
The lockout has set Tebow back, no doubt. Brady has made some big strides and looks like a better QB in practice and behind the second team.
I know Tebow fans want to discount TC and practice, Fox doesn't have that luxury. Maybe he'll get more playing time next week, or certainly, the week after.

I haven't understood the idea that Tebow got to play with scrubs, and somehow that wasn't fair.
Quinn played with them the week before and looked fine.....as he did last night.

Yup.

TailgateNut
08-22-2011, 10:49 AM
you are EXACTLY like JHNS. irrational and immune to all arguments. your hatred of Tebow rivals JHNS' hatred of McD. in fact, it's so emotion-based and illogical that you might actually be a girl!

do you ever find yourself watching Oprah reruns late at night?


arguments my ass. emotion based my ass. The guy is an untrainable goon and we wasted picks to get him. PERIOD!

BMF Bronco
08-22-2011, 10:50 AM
Once again we fail to mention his actual job on the team... He is our primary red zone threat, and he is good at it.

Stop worrying about whether or not he will be QB1 and use his significant skills to help our team now.

Like it or not, we are a better team in 2011 with orton as the starter and tebow as the "option" QB.

Spot on right here.

Gort
08-22-2011, 10:50 AM
I think it's more of a lifetime achievement thing LOL

he wasn't this nuts before Mock passed away. i think he's trying to be the next Mock. however, he doesn't realize that "angry" is not the same as "eccentric".

TailgateNut
08-22-2011, 10:50 AM
you can stop campaigning. you've already locked up the "OM douchebag of the month award for August 2011".

At least I don't have TimBoys come dribbling down my chin.

DrFate
08-22-2011, 10:51 AM
Spot on right here.

Fox isn't going to start Orton and then pull him everytime we get to the goalline. It's a slap in the face.

jhns
08-22-2011, 10:52 AM
you are EXACTLY like JHNS. irrational and immune to all arguments. your hatred of Tebow rivals JHNS' hatred of McD. in fact, it's so emotion-based and illogical that you might actually be a girl!

do you ever find yourself watching Oprah reruns late at night?

Wait, my hate for McDaniels was irrational? The guy tanked the franchise... You may have enjoyed that but I actually like this team.

Please stop comparing me to that idiot. I didn't hate McDaniels running this team until he gave me reasons to hate him running the team. People that hate Tebow were not given reason to do so. They are just insecure little girls that can't handle his choice to be a good religious person.

Gort
08-22-2011, 10:53 AM
arguments my ass. emotion based my ass. The guy is an untrainable goon and we wasted picks to get him. PERIOD!

you're right. calling him an "untrainable goon" isn't an emotional response. in fact, at the combine, i believe there is a question on the forms for scouts to fill out.

1) does this player project as an impact player in the NFL?
a) yes
b) maybe
c) no
d) he's an untrainable goon

you are right. i am wrong. all of your analysis of Tebow is based solely on logic and reason.

/sarc

Gort
08-22-2011, 10:55 AM
Fox isn't going to start Orton and then pull him everytime we get to the goalline. It's a slap in the face.

true. Fox values his reputation as a "player's coach" and as a "veteran's coach" too much. Tebow is not in his plans.

Gort
08-22-2011, 10:57 AM
At least I don't have TimBoys come dribbling down my chin.

i guess we can add vulgar to the list of adjectives that describe you.

TailgateNut
08-22-2011, 11:05 AM
i guess we can add vulgar to the list of adjectives that describe you.

Please do. I just say it like I see it.

BMF Bronco
08-22-2011, 11:13 AM
Fox isn't going to start Orton and then pull him everytime we get to the goalline. It's a slap in the face.

Well maybe it would get the message across. HIs futility in the red zone is the main issue 99% of the Tebow supporters point out.

DrFate
08-22-2011, 11:20 AM
Well maybe it would get the message across. HIs futility in the red zone is the main issue 99% of the Tebow supporters point out.

:)

I simply don't see it happening even on a semi-regular basis.

Hulamau
08-22-2011, 11:35 AM
If he isn't going to get reps in practice and he isn't going to get snaps in pre-season games, there is no 'development'. Just release him.

Relax everyone, This isn't Madden here its real football! Tebow is getting just what he has EARNED so far in practice as it should be! As has Qrton and Quinn.

I like the kid as much as anyone but I also want to see how he handles a little real adversity in his life for the first time. The guy has been Mr. Apple of Everyone's Eye as long as he can remember. Yes he deserves everything he got in college, but he has yet to really show the complete package needed to excel at this level.

We all knew he needed development, and he obviously was set back by the long lock out. A fact that is a bit disappointing as well as I expected more hard work on mechanics and footwork than he apparently put in.

We are not talking rocket science here as far as learning and DRILLING in proper footwork and throwing motion from 3, 5 and 7 step drops. By this stage he should have made more progress than he has.

He also seems to have a few blinders on as far as his own performance evaluation in some of the direct comments I have heard this camp that are a bit concerning. He isn't likely to make the kind of strides he needs too if he thinks he is doing pretty good enough already!!

In college and in life he's been able to not just get by, but excel, on shear will, moxie and an Adonis body. The NFL demands more, especially if he is going to ever become what we all hope for!

LET THE KID DEVELOP for Pete's sake and ride the bench if need be for another season, lots of great QB's only became so because they were NOT thrown to the lions before they were ready. He needs a real full off season with the coaches as well and no running around on Book signing tours, all the TV talk shows and a thousand endorsement events!

Maybe he needs to spend a little less time in the off season being 'TIM TERRIFIC' and just keeping his head down and focusing 100% on being 'Tim Tebow ... 'aspiring' NFL Quarterback'!!

Maybe the reason he's gotten off to a shaky start this year is because of all of the above and he didn't hire a real QB coach to work with him EVERY FRICKING DAY this offseason!??

I have high hopes for Tim and that he can become the winner we all hope for but how he reacts to this challenge will go a long way toward shaping that possibility .. or dashing it.

From all reports Brady has outplayed Tim fairly consistently in Camp though it is still a close and open competition between them .. but there is no question at all Orton has earned the right to start this season at least!

Kudos to Fox for sticking by his guns and not overly coddling Tim and caving into the Madhouse pressure .. this is not only in the best interest of the Broncos and fans but of Tebow most of all! Throwing him in there before he is ready for a full season is not fair to the other players who are giving it 110% as well, and not fair to Tim either.

Lets see how it goes ... he'll play some this season anyway and maybe next year he is more ready to take the reins? Nothing wrong with that. Looks like Quinn might finally be ready to become a decent QB in this league as well with a little more experience. If Orton falters or gets hurt we have options at least and maybe Tim gets it together more midway through the season??

Time will tell, as hard to hear as that seems to be for most official Tebow accolytes here to hear. You don't do him any favors by pushing him in when he is clearly not been the best QB in camp so far.

55CrushEm
08-22-2011, 11:51 AM
Relax everyone, This isn't Madden here its real football! Tebow is getting just what he has EARNED so far in practice as it should be! As has Qrton and Quinn.

I like the kid as much as anyone but I also want to see how he handles a little real adversity in his life for the first time. The guy has been Mr. Apple of Everyone's Eye as long as he can remember. Yes he deserves everything he got in college, but he has yet to really show the complete package needed to excel at this level.

We all knew he needed development, and he obviously was set back by the long lock out. A fact that is a bit disappointing as well as I expected more hard work on mechanics and footwork than he apparently put in.

We are not talking rocket science here as far as learning and DRILLING in proper footwork and throwing motion from 3, 5 and 7 step drops. By this stage he should have made more progress than he has.

He also seems to have a few blinders on as far as his own performance evaluation in some of the direct comments I have heard this camp that are a bit concerning. He isn't likely to make the kind of strides he needs too if he thinks he is doing pretty good enough already!!

In college and in life he's been able to not just get by, but excel, on shear will, moxie and an Adonis body. The NFL demands more, especially if he is going to ever become what we all hope for!

LET THE KID DEVELOP for Pete's sake and ride the bench if need be for another season, lots of great QB's only became so because they were NOT thrown to the lions before they were ready. He needs a real full off season with the coaches as well and no running around on Book signing tours, all the TV talk shows and a thousand endorsement events!

Maybe he needs to spend a little less time in the off season being 'TIM TERRIFIC' and just keeping his head down and focusing 100% on being 'Tim Tebow ... 'aspiring' NFL Quarterback'!!

Maybe the reason he's gotten off to a shaky start this year is because of all of the above and he didn't hire a real QB coach to work with him EVERY FRICKING DAY this offseason!??

I have high hopes for Tim and that he can become the winner we all hope for but how he reacts to this challenge will go a long way toward shaping that possibility .. or dashing it.

From all reports Brady has outplayed Tim fairly consistently in Camp though it is still a close and open competition between them .. but there is no question at all Orton has earned the right to start this season at least!

Kudos to Fox for sticking by his guns and not overly coddling Tim and caving into the Madhouse pressure .. this is not only in the best interest of the Broncos and fans but of Tebow most of all! Throwing him in there before he is ready for a full season is not fair to the other players who are giving it 110% as well, and not fair to Tim either.

Lets see how it goes ... he'll play some this season anyway and maybe next year he is more ready to take the reins? Nothing wrong with that. Looks like Quinn might finally be ready to become a decent QB in this league as well with a little more experience. If Orton falters or gets hurt we have options at least and maybe Tim gets it together more midway through the season??

Time will tell, as hard to hear as that seems to be for most official Tebow accolytes here to hear. You don't do him any favors by pushing him in when he is clearly not been the best QB in camp so far.

Good post. REP. However, we should not have our hopes set very high on Tim. After all, he is an untrainable goon.

TDmvp
08-22-2011, 11:55 AM
At least I don't have TimBoys come dribbling down my chin.



Classy stuff right there. And original.

I say this as someone who hated us drafting Tebow ... You're a moron.

I remember when you actually used to make classic post , funny ones during silly threads and well thought out arguments in others.

But for like the last year, year in a half you have started to come off like either a teenager or some high functioning retard who gave himself brain damage from too much meth and solo erotic asphyxiation.

And that's how you insult someone for the record , so please if you are going to just run around the forum and insult/berate people at least do better then knob slob humor ... Unless you are a teenager or mentally slow and in that case my bad.

Cito Pelon
08-22-2011, 12:01 PM
To answer the thread title, I don't think there is one. I think, before opening camp, the Broncos were down with fufilling Orton's trade request and seeing what Tebow could do this season. When Miami wouldn't give him Kevin Kolb-money and all the other QB spots were filled, the Broncos had no choice but to put him on the practice field and because Orton practiced well and Tebow didn't - it changed their immediate plans. At this point I wouldn't be stunned if all 3 QBs are gone next season but right now I'd almost think the possibility of Orton back on a Franchise Tag is more likely than Tebow sticking - although Tebow's contract and now percieved low-value could make it difficult to trade him and I wouldn't even be stunned if he was eventually released.

The bottom line is for Broncos fans, if you wanted Tim Tebow as your QB then Josh McDaniels had to be your coach, IMO. That was obviously unacceptable to the fanbase so part of the package deal in losing McD was not playing Tebow either. Looking back, it should've been pretty obvious the day Elway hired Fox it was unlikely (not impossible, but unlikely) Tebow was going to be the guy here. Because of his unique skillset, at this point in his career he needs, IMO, a McD/Shanny/Kubiak/Gruden/Holmgren type of QB developer to improve his weaknesses and develop and offense to his strengths - instead he got Mike McCoy and Adam Gase. No offense to those guys but writing on the wall was likely at that point. With all that, they were still apparently ready to hand him the job - and since that fell through now he's relegated to splitting reps handing off with Adam Weber on the scout team.

I think the BBT wants to keep Tebow as a developmental guy. The BBT is just trying to get through this year with a good record is all. C'mon man, it's a new regime, they're just trying to assemble a team, assemble a winning record, and worry about next year next year. . . .

bendog
08-22-2011, 12:05 PM
I think the BBT wants to keep Tebow as a developmental guy. The BBT is just trying to get through this year with a good record is all. C'mon man, it's a new regime, they're just trying to assemble a team, assemble a winning record, and worry about next year next year. . . .

mY God, he equates McD to Holmgren or Gruden. I wouldn't denigrate shanny or kubes that way either, but I realize opinions here differ on that. But JFC, holmgren and gruden.

Hulamau
08-22-2011, 12:06 PM
It's a formula that has worked in the past, if the Kyle Orton that plays in the preseason and against prevent defenses is the same one that can play in the 4th quarter of a tight game - it could work. I don't doubt Orton has the abilities to be succesful with that formula it's just that there were some games last season (Jax, NYJ, SF, StL, @KC come to my mind) that he wasn't able to do it. Now if he can take that step and become that player you may really have something with this formula - but regardless of how good your defense is (hell even if its 2000 Ravens good which is damn near impossible in todays game, IMO) your still going to need a QB to make plays for you in the 4th quarter to win the game. It's a QB-driven league. Can Orton do it? That's the big question...



Bingo, bingo, bingo. Tim Tebow will not start for John Fox, IMO, until he at least matches Kyle Orton's ability to read a defense, make conservative decisions and throw accurately from the pocket - in a practice setting. Essentially, he has to "Out Kyle Orton"-Kyle Orton. You may argue it's stupid, I know I do, but it's the way it's going to be.

Fox is more savvy than that I trust, listening to him talk about Tebow and watching his body language with Tim on the sidelines. Fox likes Tim and will give him every chance to blossom, but NOT at the expense of the rest of the team and this season when Tim is not yet clearly the second best QB in camp!

You can't rush these things. Tim WILL be used in a good many red zone packages as it is. Orton is likely better this year than last all around in any event. The Oline looks like it will be far better as well.

Beadles and Walton much improved 'Check' a two legged Clady is back 'Check' Kuper is healthy 'Check', Franklin looks like the real deal even with the typical rookie mistakes to be expected he'll be a beast in the run game too ... not to mention what looks like a substantial improvement in Defense (its a lot easier to look good when you have the ball back a few more times each game and are not always playing catch-up in the fourth quarter having to carry the whole team on his shoulders) .... these are all reasons Kyle could be a lot more effective in the fourth quarter this year as
it is. Not to mention a judicious use of Tebow packages to mix it up in the red zone as well and our win loss record is sure to improve.

Orton may not be our ultimate answer but he's the best QB on the team at the moment and to not start him would lose the respect and a good deal of fire from much of the rest of the teams and could only be interpreted as mortgaging the present by bending to public pressure for a projected future.

Cito Pelon
08-22-2011, 12:14 PM
. . . . . Now I'm not sure where Elway comes in on this because you'd think a great QB like that would want a great QB to develop himself - but as far as Fox goes, I can absolutly see why he likes Orton so much. . . . . .

I apologize to you Montrose for cutting out the rest of your nice post, but Fox doesn't make all the decisions about the roster. Elway has some input, and Elway has said, "It's our job to make Tebow into a great QB, not just a great football player."

They probably won't make him into a great QB this year, but I think Tebow is still in their plans for next year. This is a year the new BBT wants to make something positive to build on and adjust their plans as they see fit for next season.

TailgateNut
08-22-2011, 12:15 PM
Classy stuff right there. And original.

I say this as someone who hated us drafting Tebow ... You're a moron.

I remember when you you actually used to make classic post , funny ones during silly threads and well thought out arguments in others.

But for like the last year, year in a half you have started to come off like either a teenager or some high functioning retard who gave himself brain damage from too much meth and solo erotic asphyxiation.

And that's how you insult someone for the record , so please if you are going to just run around the forum and insult/berate people at least do better then knob slob humor ... Unless you are a teenager or mentally slow and in that case my bad.

I was ok with him being developed over a few years until he was ready even though I hated the pick.
After a year of having Tim Tebows greatness shoved down our throats, I've had enough.
And it just goes on and on:
The horse**** about him not practicing well, but being great in real game situations
The horse**** about Orton sucking
The horse**** about Elway not doing what's best for the team
The horse**** about setting the franchise back years by not playing superkid
The horse**** that the staff can't evaluate talent but the assclown monday morning managers of the mane can


****, I don't know why I'm trying to explain myself to anyone on here.

waste of breath!

bendog
08-22-2011, 12:23 PM
I don't get the "Fox is the wrong guy for Tebow's unique talents."

The offensive coordinator IS A HOLDOVER FROM MCD'S STAFF. The qb coach is a HOLDOVER FROM MCDS STAFF. McD didn't start Tebow because he thought tebow wasn't ready to execute the offense. As for dissing McCoy's resume, it's a lot thicker than McD's/

McCoy’s offense in 2009 featured another Pro Bowl pick in Marshall, who tied for third in the league with 101 receptions, including an NFL-record 21 in one game. Running back Knowshon Moreno also enjoyed a productive season, earning All-Rookie honors after becoming just the 14th player since the 1970 NFL merger to lead league rookies in rushing yards (947), yards from scrimmage (1,160) and total touchdowns (9).

The Panthers totaled three playoff appearances, two division titles, two NFC Championship Game appearances and a berth in Super Bowl XXXVIII (2003 season) during McCoy’s nine years on staff from 2000-08. Carolina tied for the second-best record in the NFC (T-7th in NFL) from 2003-08, posting a 56-40 (.583) mark with McCoy seeing an increased role in coaching its offense in that six-year period.

McCoy worked closely with Delhomme during six of his nine years coaching with the Panthers, helping the quarterback to his first career Pro Bowl selection (2005) and four 3,000-yard passing seasons (2003-05, ‘08).

As passing game coordinator/quarterbacks coach with Carolina from 2007-08, McCoy’s passing offense averaged the seventh-most yards per completion (11.7) in the NFL during that time. Delhomme averaged the fifth-most yards per pass attempt (7.8) in the NFL during McCoy’s two seasons managing Carolina’s passing attack while wide receiver Steve Smith enjoyed similar success, ranking seventh in the league in receiving yards (2,423) over that period.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/coaches/Mike-McCoy/d0f303a8-afba-4f0d-926a-f19dc6731bce

errand
08-22-2011, 12:34 PM
Unfortunately it seems that many Bronco fans have the memories of gnats. They've also apparently forgotten that Orton can't get it done when it really matters. They actually seem to think Orton playing well in a meaningless preseason game means he's going to be improved or something...

No worse than you watching Tebow **** up simple pass plays in practice thinking he won't **** it up on game day.....

Practice like you play.....play like you practice

TheDave
08-22-2011, 12:55 PM
Fox doesn't intend to use him in the red zone. mark my words. Tebow will not see any regular season action if he's the #3.

Then why are they practicing it?

alkemical
08-22-2011, 12:55 PM
Then why are they practicing it?

To show the OM they need press passes.

Tombstone RJ
08-22-2011, 12:56 PM
Please do. I just say it like I see it.

and you speak from experience...

MacGruder
08-22-2011, 12:58 PM
No worse than you watching Tebow **** up simple pass plays in practice thinking he won't **** it up on game day.....

Tebow struggles with short passes in the pocket but excels with longer passes...

Orton is the complete opposite. i would rather have a QB that needs to learn shorter passes than one that can't or won't learn to pass deep..

Practice like you play.....play like you practice

That's not what that quote means.. the quote is about practice intensity.. Tebow is using practices to learn which is what practices are for.

Plus.. the reason Orton is is so experienced in practices is because he has had his chance so long and FAILED and isn't getting better. Tebow has had no chance and is more successful even with his supposed flaws.

Gort
08-22-2011, 12:59 PM
Fox is more savvy than that I trust, listening to him talk about Tebow and watching his body language with Tim on the sidelines. Fox likes Tim and will give him every chance to blossom, but NOT at the expense of the rest of the team and this season when Tim is not yet clearly the second best QB in camp!

You can't rush these things. Tim WILL be used in a good many red zone packages as it is. Orton is likely better this year than last all around in any event. The Oline looks like it will be far better as well.

Beadles and Walton much improved 'Check' a two legged Clady is back 'Check' Kuper is healthy 'Check', Franklin looks like the real deal even with the typical rookie mistakes to be expected he'll be a beast in the run game too ... not to mention what looks like a substantial improvement in Defense (its a lot easier to look good when you have the ball back a few more times each game and are not always playing catch-up in the fourth quarter having to carry the whole team on his shoulders) .... these are all reasons Kyle could be a lot more effective in the fourth quarter this year as
it is. Not to mention a judicious use of Tebow packages to mix it up in the red zone as well and our win loss record is sure to improve.



we'll know what sort of team this is by the end of week 5 (a mere 47 days from now).

week 4 (Oct. 2) away at GB
week 5 (Oct. 9) home against SD

Gort
08-22-2011, 01:03 PM
Then why are they practicing it?

because Tebow isn't the #3 (yet). my comments are conditional on Quinn being #2 behind Orton and not being traded. if Orton's #1 and Quinn is #2 and Tebow is running the scout team, i'd be extremely surprised to see them continue working on red zone packages for Tebow. Fox has Moreno and Mcgahee. he will give those guys the ball when we need to run inside the 20.

if Tebow is #2, that's a different story because then Quinn will be running the scout team.

does anyone think they'll keep Weber on the practice squad? i don't.

TheDave
08-22-2011, 01:10 PM
because Tebow isn't the #3 (yet). my comments are conditional on Quinn being #2 behind Orton and not being traded. if Orton's #1 and Quinn is #2 and Tebow is running the scout team, I'd be extremely surprised to see them continue working on red zone packages for Tebow. Fox has Moreno and Mcgahee. he will give those guys the ball when we need to run inside the 20.

if Tebow is #2, that's a different story because then Quinn will be running the scout team.

does anyone think they'll keep Weber on the practice squad? i don't.

The new #3 QB rule is a huge benefit to us this year... It would be foolish not to take advantage of it. KO with BQ backing him up with Tebow backing both up along with running 10-15 plays a game.

As a side note, Tebow running the scout team is excellent practice for him. He needs work with his drops and reading defenses. Running the scout team and mimicking other QB in the league is good practice for the kid.

It's a win/win and Fox would be an idiot to not continue his development along this path.

Gort
08-22-2011, 01:20 PM
The new #3 QB rule is a huge benefit to us this year... It would be foolish not to take advantage of it. KO with BQ backing him up with Tebow backing both up along with running 10-15 plays a game.

As a side note, Tebow running the scout team is excellent practice for him. He needs work with his drops and reading defenses. Running the scout team and mimicking other QB in the league is good practice for the kid.

It's a win/win and Fox would be an idiot to not continue his development along this path.

but if he's running the scout team all week, he's not available to work on red zone packages with the first team. that's the point i'm trying to make. he won't be game ready with OUR offense.

Tebow is in the 2nd year of a 5 year contract IIRC, so i know we have time to develop him. Quinn and Orton are FAs at the end of this year, so there is an urgency to see what we have with them or shop them around the league. i'd be fine with all of that if Elway and Fox would come out with sincerity and say to the fans that they are not giving up on Tebow and that even if he doesn't play much this year, he's still a part of the larger plan. if they did that, this whole controversy goes away. my issue with the Broncos for the past several years is that we've had too few gamers and too many quitters. i don't want to see Tebow cut or traded because he's the kind of guy we've been lacking around here for a long time. we once had lots of guys like Al Wilson and John Lynch who hated to lose and demanded top effort from their teammates and led by example. those guys were slowly replaced by clowns who would celebrate after tacking somebody who gained 6 yards on a 2nd-and-8 play, or by emo QBs who looked them same whether we were leading by 50 or trailing by 50. one thing about Tebow, he's not going to quit on his team. i'd hate to lose players like that. they are not that common in today's NFL.

TheDave
08-22-2011, 01:40 PM
but if he's running the scout team all week, he's not available to work on red zone packages with the first team. that's the point i'm trying to make. he won't be game ready with OUR offense.

Tebow is in the 2nd year of a 5 year contract IIRC, so i know we have time to develop him. Quinn and Orton are FAs at the end of this year, so there is an urgency to see what we have with them or shop them around the league. i'd be fine with all of that if Elway and Fox would come out with sincerity and say to the fans that they are not giving up on Tebow and that even if he doesn't play much this year, he's still a part of the larger plan. if they did that, this whole controversy goes away. my issue with the Broncos for the past several years is that we've had too few gamers and too many quitters. i don't want to see Tebow cut or traded because he's the kind of guy we've been lacking around here for a long time. we once had lots of guys like Al Wilson and John Lynch who hated to lose and demanded top effort from their teammates and led by example. those guys were slowly replaced by clowns who would celebrate after tacking somebody who gained 6 yards on a 2nd-and-8 play, or by emo QBs who looked them same whether we were leading by 50 or trailing by 50. one thing about Tebow, he's not going to quit on his team. i'd hate to lose players like that. they are not that common in today's NFL.

I understand the frustrations, especially how the situation has played out, but people need to be patient. Tebow was and remains a project. Running these option type plays, especially at the goal line gives this staff and players a better idea of how everyone fits into a tebow style system. It gives a new system like that a chance to deveolp for a season or 2 before running it on a full time basis.

Right now... Today... We need to give everyone a chance to get to know each other. I can not stress this enough, this is a new staff with a lot of new players, and no offseason. KO and BQ are safe picks to run our current offense. Add to that both have significantly out performed tebow in camp.

There really is no other way to deal with this, IMO the coaches are doing the right thing... both from the viewpoint of developing Tebow and winning games.

Cito Pelon
08-22-2011, 01:45 PM
if you replace "Tebow" with "McD", everything you write on this subject matches EXACTLY what JHNS wrote about McD.

congratulations! you are now at JHNS' level.

Satan is proud of you.

http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/gallery/al-davis-face/al-davis.jpg

Man, don't do that ever again. Thanks in advance.

DBroncos4life
08-22-2011, 01:46 PM
I understand the frustrations, especially how the situation has played out, but people need to be patient. Tebow was and remains a project. Running these option type plays, especially at the goal line gives this staff and players a better idea of how everyone fits into a tebow style system. It gives a new system like that a chance to deveolp for a season or 2 before running it on a full time basis.

Right now... Today... We need to give everyone a chance to get to know each other. I can not stress this enough, this is a new staff with a lot of new players, and no offseason. KO and BQ are safe picks to run our current offense. Add to that both have significantly out performed tebow in camp.

There really is no other way to deal with this, IMO the coaches are doing the right thing... both from the viewpoint of developing Tebow and winning games.
Year two into a five year deal and people are wanting to dump him if we are not going to name him a starter yet.

bendog
08-22-2011, 01:50 PM
I understand the frustrations, especially how the situation has played out, but people need to be patient. Tebow was and remains a project. Running these option type plays, especially at the goal line gives this staff and players a better idea of how everyone fits into a tebow style system. It gives a new system like that a chance to deveolp for a season or 2 before running it on a full time basis.

Right now... Today... We need to give everyone a chance to get to know each other. I can not stress this enough, this is a new staff with a lot of new players, and no offseason. KO and BQ are safe picks to run our current offense. Add to that both have significantly out performed tebow in camp.

There really is no other way to deal with this, IMO the coaches are doing the right thing... both from the viewpoint of developing Tebow and winning games.

I don't think the offense will ever be any different from what we saw when Elway was in his prime. I personally still hold a grudge towards R66v6s for not rolling Elway out late in the first half of the Giants superbowl down by the goal line. But, they used qb draws on about the 5yd line on third down. They'd roll the guy out with a blocker and a receiver in the corner of the endzone. They'd do naked bootlegs even with Morton. They'd draw up a play to make it look like it was run left, and roll just Elway and the running back the other way. That was sort of an option, but Elway just had the choice of running or a short forward pass. (I hated that play, btw. Got both TD and Elway blown up)

TonyR
08-22-2011, 01:52 PM
Fox isn't going to start Orton and then pull him everytime we get to the goalline. It's a slap in the face.

I agree that Tebow won't come in every time we reach the red zone. But I'll be surprised if we don't see him regularly inside the 10. Can't leave those bullets in the gun.

bendog
08-22-2011, 02:05 PM
I agree that Tebow won't come in every time we reach the red zone. But I'll be surprised if we don't see him regularly inside the 10. Can't leave those bullets in the gun.

If he's bobbling snaps from center with any frequency, and the Post reported he was, will they just put him in shotgun with a full back? I guess they could, with 2 wr, 2te, 1fb and tebow. If tebow can execute a shuffle pass, I guess they could use Mcgehee.

DrFate
08-22-2011, 07:40 PM
But I'll be surprised if we don't see him regularly inside the 10.

I'd be surprised if we ever see Tebow. In any situation. But I hope I'm wrong.