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DivineLegion
08-19-2011, 06:46 AM
Chris Long was on the Dan Patrick show this morning and said the toughest QB that he played against last season was Kyle Orton. He also mentioned Phillip Rivers (Even cited his trash talking), but said that Kyle was definitely the toughest, because he brought the broncos back, and kept fighting. Maybe he was just trying to blow smoke up his new OC's ass, I don't know; I thought it was note worthy.

TailgateNut
08-19-2011, 06:53 AM
MacGruder will punish you!

CEH
08-19-2011, 06:55 AM
Chris Long was on the Dan Patrick show this morning and said the toughest QB that he played against last season was Kyle Orton. He also mentioned Phillip Rivers (Even cited his trash talking), but said that Kyle was definitely the toughest, because he brought the broncos back, and kept fighting. Maybe he was just trying to blow smoke up his new OC's ass, I don't know; I thought it was note worthy.

I'll go with the Rams-McD connection. I'll take Rivers right now over any of our QBs . Did Denver win that game? Didn't bring them back far enough . Good but not good enough. Middle of the pack QB

Dedhed
08-19-2011, 06:58 AM
It's not worth much.

TheReverend
08-19-2011, 07:01 AM
Sounds a lot tougher than say, someone on the previously winless Detroit Lions when they drubbed the **** out of StL 44-6 under Shaun Hill.

TheReverend
08-19-2011, 07:03 AM
Gotta admit... 1/9 on 3rd down is PRETTY tough though.

Wait... he didnt mean that kinda tough?

DivineLegion
08-19-2011, 07:07 AM
Sounds a lot tougher than say, someone on the previously winless Detroit Lions when they drubbed the **** out of StL 44-6 under Shaun Hill.

That was a bit of a defensive meltdown with 0 INT's from Bradford and > 100 yrds from Jackson wasn't it?

DivineLegion
08-19-2011, 07:13 AM
So Rev, now that I got you all riled up on a Friday morning lets talk some football. If this defense regains some of its luster, and we finish in the top 10 in rushing; would you be content with Kyle Orton managing this offense?

TheReverend
08-19-2011, 07:14 AM
That was a bit of a defensive meltdown with 0 INT's from Bradford and > 100 yrds from Jackson wasn't it?

Right. And Chris Long plays defense...

DivineLegion
08-19-2011, 07:16 AM
Right. And Chris Long plays defense...

Just trying to stir the pot, its friday morning, I'm done with school for the day...whats a guy gonna do.

Dedhed
08-19-2011, 07:20 AM
So Rev, now that I got you all riled up on a Friday morning lets talk some football. If this defense regains some of its luster, and we finish in the top 10 in rushing; would you be content with Kyle Orton managing this offense?
This is what drives me nuts about the Orton debate. People seem to back him with the hopes he can lead this team to 8 wins. Which would basically only accomplish setting the franchise back another year.

There's no way Orton is going to be here long term, so I absolutely cannot understand why anyone would want another lame duck year from a QB who might be able to "manage" to not completely screw things up if we make miraculous strides in every other area of the game and can carry him to victory.

It's insane to me.

DivineLegion
08-19-2011, 07:33 AM
This is what drives me nuts about the Orton debate. People seem to back him with the hopes he can lead this team to 8 wins. Which would basically only accomplish setting the franchise back another year.

There's no way Orton is going to be here long term, so I absolutely cannot understand why anyone would want another lame duck year from a QB who might be able to "manage" to not completely screw things up if we make miraculous strides in every other area of the game and can carry him to victory.

It's insane to me.

I disagree, go check out the article on "its all over fat man" where the author talks about John working with Tebow individually after practice. It was great. Tim's not ready, and Kyle is a pretty good QB. Would you say that Kyle Orton is better than Jake Delhome? Would you say that with a few more key pieces this defense could be top 10? Stephen Davis, and DeShaun Foster better than Marino and McGahee? Fox has won in this league with superior defense, good running, and a mediocre QB so whats to say he can't do it again. Look, I'm not saying he should follow the exact same mold, but it looks like that's the direction that we're taking.

Jay3
08-19-2011, 07:37 AM
Would you say that Kyle Orton is better than Jake Delhome?

I think he is Jake Delhomme reincarnated. Very similar in many ways, to the good and bad.

TheReverend
08-19-2011, 07:42 AM
I think he is Jake Delhomme reincarnated. Very similar in many ways, to the good and bad.

Delhomme was a much better athlete

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 07:44 AM
This is what drives me nuts about the Orton debate. People seem to back him with the hopes he can lead this team to 8 wins. Which would basically only accomplish setting the franchise back another year.

There's no way Orton is going to be here long term, so I absolutely cannot understand why anyone would want another lame duck year from a QB who might be able to "manage" to not completely screw things up if we make miraculous strides in every other area of the game and can carry him to victory.

It's insane to me.

He doesn't need miraculous strides. All he needs is a competent defense.

In his career, he only has 2 losses when his defense held the opponent under 20 pts. 9 teams did that last year in terms of season averages, with another 5 giving up between 20 and 21 pts on average for the year. So basically half the defenses in the league. So, all we need is a top 15 or so defense and we'll be more than fine with a guy like Orton under center. Is asking for a top 15 defense REALLY asking for a miracle? It certainly shouldn't be.

WolfpackGuy
08-19-2011, 07:49 AM
Chris Long will now be drug tested daily for that comment.

I guess he was out when they played Brees and the Saints.

Dedhed
08-19-2011, 07:55 AM
He doesn't need miraculous strides. All he needs is a competent defense.

In his career, he only has 2 losses when his defense held the opponent under 20 pts. 9 teams did that last year in terms of season averages, with another 5 giving up between 20 and 21 pts on average for the year. So basically half the defenses in the league. So, all we need is a top 15 or so defense and we'll be more than fine with a guy like Orton under center. Is asking for a top 15 defense REALLY asking for a miracle? It certainly shouldn't be.
This is laughable.

He managed 11 wins with one of the historically great defenses. You really think he's gonna get to that level with a merely mediocre defense?

Anyone thinking that Orton is going to lead this team to the playoffs, and beyond, if he gets merely decent defensive play is kidding themselves.

I love that Orton has turned "Fine" into the measuring stick for QBs in Denver. That's inspiring!

CEH
08-19-2011, 07:57 AM
So Rev, now that I got you all riled up on a Friday morning lets talk some football. If this defense regains some of its luster, and we finish in the top 10 in rushing; would you be content with Kyle Orton managing this offense?

Like he managed the 10-6 loss to KC?

jhns
08-19-2011, 08:00 AM
He doesn't need miraculous strides. All he needs is a competent defense.

In his career, he only has 2 losses when his defense held the opponent under 20 pts. 9 teams did that last year in terms of season averages, with another 5 giving up between 20 and 21 pts on average for the year. So basically half the defenses in the league. So, all we need is a top 15 or so defense and we'll be more than fine with a guy like Orton under center. Is asking for a top 15 defense REALLY asking for a miracle? It certainly shouldn't be.

You mean like his first year here? 20.2 pts per game given up by the defense. That was good for 12th in points and 7th in yards. Top 15 defense = 8-8...

Dedhed
08-19-2011, 08:02 AM
Tim's not ready, and Kyle is a pretty good QB.If Tebow really isn't ready, a premise I completely disagree with based on his 3 starts last year, start Quinn. At the very least there's some upside there. But, for the love of god, don't hang your hat on "meh, he's a pretty good QB if other players win the game for him." That's pathetic, and the antithesis of what I think of as Denver football.

Would you say that Kyle Orton is better than Jake Delhome?Dlehomme in his prime was hands down better that Orton.

Would you say that with a few more key pieces this defense could be top 10?Who cares? This has nothing to do, imo, with Orton. He's a dead end, lame duck, QB. This is a weak rhetorical question. Better defense will make any QB better.

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 08:02 AM
You mean like his first year here? 20.2 pts per game given up by the defense. That was good for 12ty in points amd 7th in yards. Top 15 defense = 8-8...

Go ahead and ignore the injuries and Chris Simms effect. You never were one for context.

jhns
08-19-2011, 08:04 AM
Go ahead and ignore the injuries and Chris Simms effect. You never were one for context.

8 wins with a top 15 defense. If he needs everything perfect, he isn't cut out for this league. Him getting injured every year isn't a positive in the argument for him.

PRBronco
08-19-2011, 08:05 AM
I don't think Orton's not tough, or not a battler, I just think he's nothing more than barely adequate as an nfl quarterback.

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 08:05 AM
8 wins with a top 15 defense. If he needs everything perfect, he isn't cut out for this league. Him getting injured every year isn't a positive in the argument for him.

Perfect? Perfect would be a top 5 defense, top 5 running game, and great special teams. He's never had that. Sorry.

Dedhed
08-19-2011, 08:06 AM
Go ahead and ignore the injuries and Chris Simms effect. You never were one for context.

Go ahead and ignore that injuries are part of who Orton is. You don't seem to care much for reality.

TailgateNut
08-19-2011, 08:08 AM
Go ahead and ignore the injuries and Chris Simms effect. You never were one for context.


....and he discounts stats unless he's using stats to bolster his assinine opinions...

Dedhed
08-19-2011, 08:08 AM
Perfect? Perfect would be a top 5 defense, top 5 running game, and great special teams. He's never had that. Sorry.

Show me a QB who wouldn't win in that situation. Show me where Orton has done anything.

jhns
08-19-2011, 08:08 AM
Perfect? Perfect would be a top 5 defense, top 5 running game, and great special teams. He's never had that. Sorry.

You just said he only needed a top 15 defense. I pointed out that he had one and you made more excuses... I never claimed he had the perfect situation here. He also hasn't won here, so that really doesn't have much to do with anything.

jhns
08-19-2011, 08:10 AM
....and he discounts stats unless he's using stats to bolster his assinine opinions...

Notice how you have nothing but some whining...

I used facts. Go ahead and try proving me wrong.

CEH
08-19-2011, 08:12 AM
Go ahead and ignore that injuries are part of who Orton is. You don't seem to care much for reality.

Correct
3 years in a row Orton has been injured. At this point the odds are very good he'll be injured this year.

TheReverend
08-19-2011, 08:12 AM
So Rev, now that I got you all riled up on a Friday morning lets talk some football. If this defense regains some of its luster, and we finish in the top 10 in rushing; would you be content with Kyle Orton managing this offense?

If we're winning games, ill be content with Hillary Clinton under center.

That being said, I don't have faith in Orton to do that and his hilarious redzone performasnce DESPITE a successful rushing attack certainly doesn't change that.

But it is what it is, I expect the team to fail early, bench Orton (who will still collect his 9 million from a chair), start Tebow and grab some wins in the second half.

More importantly, I feel it was a GROSS mismanagement of our offseason. Trading Kyle for whatever compensation Miami was generous to have offered, along with 9 million extra FA dollars and we could have a roster like this:

Joseph opposite Champ
Mebane and Jenkins with Bunkley and MT rotating in (personally prefer Cofield though)

Instead of what we have now... That's a massive talent upgrade to key weaknesses AND we have unnamed compensation for a poor player by any standard

Dedhed
08-19-2011, 08:12 AM
....and he discounts stats unless he's using stats to bolster his assinine opinions...

Which is a better stat; 20pts/game or 25pts/game?

Dedhed
08-19-2011, 08:13 AM
Correct
3 years in a row Orton has been injured.It's more than 3.

HooptyHoops
08-19-2011, 08:21 AM
This is laughable.

I love that Orton has turned "Fine" into the measuring stick for QBs in Denver. That's inspiring!

This! :bronxrox:

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 08:24 AM
Show me a QB who wouldn't win in that situation. Show me where Orton has done anything.

2008.

DrFate
08-19-2011, 08:26 AM
This is what drives me nuts about the Orton debate. People seem to back him with the hopes he can lead this team to 8 wins. Which would basically only accomplish setting the franchise back another year.

There's no way Orton is going to be here long term, so I absolutely cannot understand why anyone would want another lame duck year from a QB who might be able to "manage" to not completely screw things up if we make miraculous strides in every other area of the game and can carry him to victory.

It's insane to me.

This remains the crux of this argument, I think. I can't envision any situation where Orton gets a long-term deal from the Broncos. They shopped him all offseason, there was almost no demand in a buyers market - and that isn't going to change if the reports are true that he wants Kolb-like money. Orton is a bottom third QB in this league (I even had the pro-Orton people agree with me on that) and his value is almost nothing. So what's the benefit of him playing?

Even the talking heads who back Orton say 'Orton will play until Denver throws in the towel, then Tebow will play'. If Tebow CAN'T play, what difference does it make what the record is? If he is utterly incapable he should never play...

Even the guy who allegedly wanted (McDaniels) didn't give him a long-term deal. Who really thinks Kyle Orton will be the QB of the Broncos on opening day 2012? ANYONE?

TheReverend
08-19-2011, 08:26 AM
2008.

The season he played so well that Chicago packaged 2 1sts, a third AND Orton for Cutler...?

TailgateNut
08-19-2011, 08:27 AM
Which is a better stat; 20pts/game or 25pts/game?


Which is a better stat: Cmp%50 TD 5 Int 3 Rating 80
or: Cmp%58 TD 20 Int 9 Rating 87.5

I don't look at stats as much as those who use them as a crutch to bolster their arguments but since you brought up stats........

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 08:29 AM
The season he played so well that Chicago packaged 2 1sts, a third AND Orton for Cutler...?

Yup. They are an organization that has proven time and again that they are completely inept when it comes to QBs. It happens.

TheReverend
08-19-2011, 08:37 AM
Yup. They are an organization that has proven time and again that they are completely inept when it comes to QBs. It happens.

That must be why they narrowly missed the Superbowl and we picked #2 overall. Really ****ty evaluations going on up there lol

Dedhed
08-19-2011, 08:37 AM
2008.

9-6?

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 08:39 AM
9-6?

Yup. With a statistically below average running game, defense and special teams.

Dedhed
08-19-2011, 08:39 AM
Which is a better stat: Cmp%50 TD 5 Int 3 Rating 80
or: Cmp%58 TD 20 Int 9 Rating 87.5

I don't look at stats as much as those who use them as a crutch to bolster their arguments but since you brought up stats........

Actually, you brought up stats. I don't care for stats. However, I do care for points on the board.

Which would you say is more important; Points or Completion %?

jhns
08-19-2011, 08:43 AM
Yup. With a statistically below average running game, defense and special teams.

21st ranked passing offense...

I have never seen someone so in love with such a bad QB. It is really weird.

Dedhed
08-19-2011, 08:45 AM
Yup. With a statistically below average running game, defense and special teams.

Is that supposed to be impressive?

5th in return yards could hardly be considered below average, and the defense ranked better than the passing game. The passing attack was 21st.

If you're calling all that below average, you have to put Orton in that classification as well. So I agree with you there.

TailgateNut
08-19-2011, 08:45 AM
Actually, you brought up stats. I don't care for stats. However, I do care for points on the board.

Which would you say is more important; Points or Completion %?


It's all relative.

If you have a defensive juggernaut completion percentage with high TOS and marginal points may win more games than if you have a sieve of a defense a low completion percentage and score more and faster but also toss more INTs and loose TOP giving the other team more chances to wear down your sieve and score.


It's all relative.

Regardless, you, I and the other gazillion armchair team owners have no say in the decisions, which is a GOOD thing!

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 08:45 AM
21st ranked passing offense...

I have never seen someone so in love with such a bad QB. It is really weird.

Not in love at all. Just feel that, right now, today, he's our best option and for some reason people feel the need to lie about what he can and cannot do. I simply feel the need to defend him in those instances, just like I do and have done with other players when people outright lie about them or make statements without any supporting evidence.

DrFate
08-19-2011, 08:49 AM
Not in love at all. Just feel that, right now, today, he's our best option and for some reason people feel the need to lie about what he can and cannot do. I simply feel the need to defend him in those instances, just like I do and have done with other players when people outright lie about them or make statements without any supporting evidence.

Do you feel Orton is the long-term QB in Denver?

Dedhed
08-19-2011, 08:50 AM
It's all relative.


I'm more of the Occam's Razor sort. I think points tell pretty much the truth because they're the only thing that matters in the end.


Feel free to try to keep coming up with complex measures to convince yourself that Orton isn't a complete lame duck QB though.

Dedhed
08-19-2011, 09:05 AM
This remains the crux of this argument, I think. I can't envision any situation where Orton gets a long-term deal from the Broncos. They shopped him all offseason, there was almost no demand in a buyers market - and that isn't going to change if the reports are true that he wants Kolb-like money. Orton is a bottom third QB in this league (I even had the pro-Orton people agree with me on that) and his value is almost nothing. So what's the benefit of him playing?

Even the talking heads who back Orton say 'Orton will play until Denver throws in the towel, then Tebow will play'. If Tebow CAN'T play, what difference does it make what the record is? If he is utterly incapable he should never play...

Even the guy who allegedly wanted (McDaniels) didn't give him a long-term deal. Who really thinks Kyle Orton will be the QB of the Broncos on opening day 2012? ANYONE?This has been my point all along, and one that not a single Orton supporter has answered to.

There is no way Orton is the future at QB beyond this year. It's either Tebow, Luck, Bradley, Jones, or even Quinn. Orton is not in that discussion. So why invest any time whatsoever in Orton? It makes no sense unless you're delusional enough to think this team is going to make Super Bowl run this year. Which, btw, could only possibly happen with freakish play from the QB; they call that irony.

Investing in Orton is like buying stock that you know is going to have no value to you in the future. They shouldn't even be investing practice reps in Orton, let alone game reps.

DrFate
08-19-2011, 09:20 AM
It's hard to make it much clearer than that. :)

It really would make more sense to have Quinn taking reps than a guy who will be playing in Seattle or Miami next year.

Dedhed
08-19-2011, 10:01 AM
It's hard to make it much clearer than that. :)

It really would make more sense to have Quinn taking reps than a guy who will be playing in Seattle or Miami next year.

And... silence from the Orton corner. Shocking.

Powderaddict
08-19-2011, 10:03 AM
Delhomme was a much better athlete

He was way more clutch as well.

Right now, Orton > Delhomme.

At their best, Delhomme >>>> Orton.

Rock Chalk
08-19-2011, 10:12 AM
The best thing about people that bash Orton is that they STILL have no explanation why, if Orton is so ****ty, isn't Tebow starting. I mean, the Boy Wonder should be able to beat out a pedestrian/mediocre QB right?

Hahaha.

TheReverend
08-19-2011, 10:14 AM
The best thing about people that bash Orton is that they STILL have no explanation why, if Orton is so ****ty, isn't Tebow starting. I mean, the Boy Wonder should be able to beat out a pedestrian/mediocre QB right?

Hahaha.

Because it's a lockout season and apparently the locker room is way too behind Orton.

You remember we TRIED to trade him, right? And that no one gave a **** and wanted him?

Just checking.

Powderaddict
08-19-2011, 10:16 AM
Which is a better stat: Cmp%50 TD 5 Int 3 Rating 80
or: Cmp%58 TD 20 Int 9 Rating 87.5

I don't look at stats as much as those who use them as a crutch to bolster their arguments but since you brought up stats........

Well, if the top line results in more points,

The top line.

DrFate
08-19-2011, 10:19 AM
The best thing about people that bash Orton is that they STILL have no explanation why, if Orton is so ****ty, isn't Tebow starting. I mean, the Boy Wonder should be able to beat out a pedestrian/mediocre QB right?

Hahaha.

The question I have is the reverse - if Tebow is so inept and the front office thinks that Orton walks on water - why did they spend the entire offseason trying to trade him?

And if he is such a wunderkind - why did all these teams pass on this deal-of-the-century?

It is a terrible reflection on this management if they had the entire offseason to decide to move Orton, only to have a knee-jerk reaction after a few days of camp throwing in shorts, all of a sudden to decide Orton is the answer.

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 10:22 AM
This has been my point all along, and one that not a single Orton supporter has answered to.

There is no way Orton is the future at QB beyond this year. It's either Tebow, Luck, Bradley, Jones, or even Quinn. Orton is not in that discussion. So why invest any time whatsoever in Orton? It makes no sense unless you're delusional enough to think this team is going to make Super Bowl run this year. Which, btw, could only possibly happen with freakish play from the QB; they call that irony.

Investing in Orton is like buying stock that you know is going to have no value to you in the future. They shouldn't even be investing practice reps in Orton, let alone game reps.

What hasn't been answered to? I don't dodge any questions.

Do I believe Orton's the long term future at QB for the Broncos? Nope. I don't. So what. What we're dealing with is the here and now. Not some mystical future.

According to everyone that says we shouldn't waste any more snaps on Orton, I wonder, should the same go for all the other #1 veteran QBs out there that have never won a SB or who don't appear to be the future of their teams? There are a lot of them. And there's a reason their coaches are going to battle with them over "the potential" that's sitting on the bench.

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 10:23 AM
The question I have is the reverse - if Tebow is so inept and the front office thinks that Orton walks on water - why did they spend the entire offseason trying to trade him?

Exaggerate much?

Unless you have some proof that I'm not aware of, they spent less than a week trying to trade him.

Powderaddict
08-19-2011, 10:27 AM
Exaggerate much?

Unless you have some proof that I'm not aware of, they spent less than a week trying to trade him.

Everyone that might want him went out and got QB's they actually wanted.

DrFate
08-19-2011, 10:27 AM
Exaggerate much?


I'm not exaggerating at all. It's fact. There were reports all during the offseason that Orton was on the block and could be had for a mid-round pick.

Now remember, this is an offseason where no less than FIVE teams were looking for vet QB help (MIA, TEN, MIN, AZ, SEA) (we could throw in WSH or CIN or SF if we were being entirely honest)

And several of those decided that McNabb or Hasselbeck or Tavaris Jackson were better options than Orton. That's fact. The whole league passed on Orton. Some decided they'd rather ride with players like Grossman or Henne or Daulton.

DrFate
08-19-2011, 10:32 AM
Do I believe Orton's the long term future at QB for the Broncos? Nope. I don't. So what.

Then why is he playing? Shouldn't the front office be concerned with the long-term ability of this team to compete?

The Pro-Orton crowd needs to consider a very reasonable scenario. The 2011 season ends, the Broncos are 5-11, and Orton leaves. What is the future of the franchise at that point? They still don't know if Tebow is the answer - do they suddenly give him the reigns, even though he is no 'more ready' then than he is today? Do they draft a QB? Another season of Orton is another season wasted with no clear idea of the next 5 years. Good franchises aren't run this way.

TailgateNut
08-19-2011, 10:33 AM
The question I have is the reverse - if Tebow is so inept and the front office thinks that Orton walks on water - why did they spend the entire offseason trying to trade him?

And if he is such a wunderkind - why did all these teams pass on this deal-of-the-century?

It is a terrible reflection on this management if they had the entire offseason to decide to move Orton, only to have a knee-jerk reaction after a few days of camp throwing in shorts, all of a sudden to decide Orton is the answer.


Jersey sales and trying to prevent a flood of tears from the Tebownites.

TheReverend
08-19-2011, 10:34 AM
Jersey sales and trying to prevent a flood of tears from the Tebownites.

Do you know how jersey sales work?

DrFate
08-19-2011, 10:35 AM
Jersey sales and trying to prevent a flood of tears from the Tebownites.

That still doesn't explain why there was ZERO interest in the high and mighty Orton.

TheReverend
08-19-2011, 10:36 AM
That still doesn't explain why there was ZERO interest in the high and mighty Orton.

And when you consider the league nets the jersey sales $ and not the team.........

TailgateNut
08-19-2011, 10:37 AM
Then why is he playing? Shouldn't the front office be concerned with the long-term ability of this team to compete?

The Pro-Orton crowd needs to consider a very reasonable scenario. The 2011 season ends, the Broncos are 5-11, and Orton leaves. What is the future of the franchise at that point? They still don't know if Tebow is the answer - do they suddenly give him the reigns, even though he is no 'more ready' then than he is today? Do they draft a QB? Another season of Orton is another season wasted with no clear idea of the next 5 years. Good franchises aren't run this way.

Damn you Tebonites are stupid as ****ing fragmented rocks. According to you Tebow wouldn't learn **** by sitting for another year. I guess he'll just close his eyes and ears and not participate in training nor will he get any reps during the season. He needs time to "refine his awesomeness".:wiggle: and he needs to hope he doesn't end up being the third string QB in a few weeks.

strafen
08-19-2011, 10:38 AM
Then why is he playing? Shouldn't the front office be concerned with the long-term ability of this team to compete?

The Pro-Orton crowd needs to consider a very reasonable scenario. The 2011 season ends, the Broncos are 5-11, and Orton leaves. What is the future of the franchise at that point? They still don't know if Tebow is the answer - do they suddenly give him the reigns, even though he is no 'more ready' then than he is today? Do they draft a QB? Another season of Orton is another season wasted with no clear idea of the next 5 years. Good franchises aren't run this way.

Great post. That sums up reality and what we as fans are staring down at this season. I couldn't have said it better myself. Rep!

TailgateNut
08-19-2011, 10:39 AM
That still doesn't explain why there was ZERO interest in the high and mighty Orton.

Lack of Jersey sales. ( er: high $$$$ for better than avg QB)

TheReverend
08-19-2011, 10:40 AM
Lack of Jersey sales. ( er: high $$$$ for better than avg QB)

You should learn how jersey $ works...

TailgateNut
08-19-2011, 10:40 AM
Do you know how jersey sales work?


Please tell me, oh all knowing!

DrFate
08-19-2011, 10:41 AM
According to you Tebow wouldn't learn **** by sitting for another year. I guess he'll just close his eyes and ears and not participate in training nor will he get any reps during the season.

It's a fact he doesn't get as many reps in practice. It's my opinion that NFL quarterbacks don't get any better carrying a clipboard. I stand by that. The Manning's of the world came in, took a beating, and got better. I've always thought that unless a QB is just lost on the field, he needs to be playing to improve. He needs to be seeing himself on film, working on timing with the receivers, etc.

I don't think Tebow learns much watching tape of Orton fall down.

TailgateNut
08-19-2011, 10:42 AM
You should learn how jersey $ works...


I really DGAF how they work and who gets the damn money. I was referring to TimBoys popularity contest which didn't automatically work out on the field for him and his cult like followers.:spit:

TheReverend
08-19-2011, 10:42 AM
Please tell me, oh all knowing!

When a Tebow/Bailey/Moreno/Elvis/etc jersey gets sold, the Raiders, Chargers, etc make just as money as the Broncos do...

jhns
08-19-2011, 10:43 AM
The best thing about people that bash Orton is that they STILL have no explanation why, if Orton is so ****ty, isn't Tebow starting. I mean, the Boy Wonder should be able to beat out a pedestrian/mediocre QB right?

Hahaha.

There is an easy explanation for this. Fox doesn't know QBs. His teams QB play proves this...

TheReverend
08-19-2011, 10:44 AM
I really DGAF how they work and who gets the damn money. I was referring to TimBoys popularity contest which didn't automatically work out on the field for him and his cult like followers.:spit:

Translation:
"What I said was blatantly wrong so I meant something else"

DrFate
08-19-2011, 10:47 AM
Lack of Jersey sales. ( er: high $$$$ for better than avg QB)

Huh? Other teams decided to NOT trade for Orton (at a discount rate) because of jersey sales?

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 10:53 AM
I'm not exaggerating at all. It's fact. There were reports all during the offseason that Orton was on the block and could be had for a mid-round pick.

Reports? Sorry. There were reports that Peyton Manning was going to test FA too. Never happened.

I need a little more.


Now remember, this is an offseason where no less than FIVE teams were looking for vet QB help (MIA, TEN, MIN, AZ, SEA) (we could throw in WSH or CIN or SF if we were being entirely honest)

I've never disputed this. Nobody has.


And several of those decided that McNabb or Hasselbeck or Tavaris Jackson were better options than Orton. That's fact. The whole league passed on Orton. Some decided they'd rather ride with players like Grossman or Henne or Daulton.

Again, I've never disputed this. Nobody has.

TailgateNut
08-19-2011, 10:55 AM
Translation:
"What I said was blatantly wrong so I meant something else"


No translation period. I was aluding to Teblow winning the popularity contest. Heck, just look at all the Teblownites which have appeared out of the woodwork. It's like a shiny new sleek sportscar after having your everyday Chevy workhorse truck. Everybody wants it until they figure our it really doesn't handle real well under certain conditions. It's ok for those sunny sunday drives, but when the going gets tough you might have to break out that old reliable Chevy which works really well regardless of weather and road conditions.

TailgateNut
08-19-2011, 10:56 AM
Huh? Other teams decided to NOT trade for Orton (at a discount rate) because of jersey sales?


You Teblownites are so ****ing gullible it's not even funny. It's sad! I feel for you!

DrFate
08-19-2011, 10:56 AM
Reports? Sorry. There were reports that Peyton Manning was going to test FA too. Never happened.

I need a little more.

We all know that Orton was on the block. No poster on this board can swear to it in court, but we all know it's the case. Please don't play that game.

You are a bit more reasonable than some in the Orton camp, and you've even agreed with me (in another thread) that Orton is a bottom 10 starter in this league. Why would you FIGHT for Orton when he won't be on the team in 2012? Wouldn't you rather see what you have in Tebow/Quinn so the team can make a decision whether to draft one next year?

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 10:56 AM
Then why is he playing? Shouldn't the front office be concerned with the long-term ability of this team to compete?

The Pro-Orton crowd needs to consider a very reasonable scenario. The 2011 season ends, the Broncos are 5-11, and Orton leaves. What is the future of the franchise at that point? They still don't know if Tebow is the answer - do they suddenly give him the reigns, even though he is no 'more ready' then than he is today? Do they draft a QB? Another season of Orton is another season wasted with no clear idea of the next 5 years. Good franchises aren't run this way.

I know of more teams that are going with the "safer" veteran guys on their roster over rookies or 2nd year unknowns than the other way around. Even if they know said veteran is not in their future plans. I guess they're all terrible franchises.

And I keep hearing how Orton can't stay healthy, so why do you all think that Tebow will still be an unknown at this point next year? I mean, he's guaranteed to see more playing time once Orton inevitably goes down again, right?

Dedhed
08-19-2011, 10:59 AM
The best thing about people that bash Orton is that they STILL have no explanation why, if Orton is so ****ty, isn't Tebow starting. I mean, the Boy Wonder should be able to beat out a pedestrian/mediocre QB right?

Hahaha.
I think it's been said a few hundred times that Orton is better in practice. That's the why. Not too difficult.

DrFate
08-19-2011, 11:00 AM
I know of more teams that are going with the "safer" veteran guys on their roster over rookies or 2nd year unknowns than the other way around. Even if they know said veteran is not in their future plans. I guess they're all terrible franchises.

We've already heard that Newton has won the job in Carolina. Daulton started the 1st preseason game in Cincy, Gabbert in Jacksonville. How long before Locker and Ponder are on the field? Which teams are playing journeymen rather than seeing their young guys? Give me a couple of examples


And I keep hearing how Orton can't stay healthy, so why do you all think that Tebow will still be an unknown at this point next year? I mean, he's guaranteed to see more playing time once Orton inevitably goes down again, right?

I have said nothing about Orton's ability/inability to stay healthy. I don't know how Tebow will perform or if he can stay healthy - that's exactly what I want to see.

jhns
08-19-2011, 11:01 AM
Reports? Sorry. There were reports that Peyton Manning was going to test FA too. Never happened.


This front office confirmed that Orton was on the trade block in February and last month...

What more do you need?

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 11:02 AM
This front office confirmed that Orton was on the trade block in February and last month...

What more do you need?

Links.

jhns
08-19-2011, 11:03 AM
Links.

www.google.com

DrFate
08-19-2011, 11:05 AM
Links.

Dude, you are better than this. Everyone on this board knows Orton has been on the block the bulk of the offseason. We don't need a sworn affidavit, do we?

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 11:11 AM
We've already heard that Newton has won the job in Carolina. Daulton started the 1st preseason game in Cincy, Gabbert in Jacksonville. How long before Locker and Ponder are on the field? Which teams are playing journeymen rather than seeing their young guys? Give me a couple of examples


None of the above have locked up the #1 jobs yet. Having said that, I'd expect Newton will start opening week. Daulton might or might not. I'm leaning towards not unless he shows some real improvement. The rest? Nope. The coaches are going with the vets.

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 11:13 AM
Dude, you are better than this. Everyone on this board knows Orton has been on the block the bulk of the offseason. We don't need a sworn affidavit, do we?

If someone states explicitly that the front office confirmed he was on the trading block back in February, sorry, I'm going to call them on it.

I am ALWAYS forced to provide links and evidence any time I make the smallest, most non-controversial posts here by jhns. I'm certainly going to return the favor when I know for a fact he's making crap up about something fairly important.

DrFate
08-19-2011, 11:15 AM
None of the above have locked up the #1 jobs yet. Having said that, I'd expect Newton will start opening week. Daulton might or might not. I'm leaning towards not unless he shows some real improvement. The rest? Nope. The coaches are going with the vets.

Going with vets to start their rookie year - I'd agree.

You want to put any money on who the starter is, opening day 2012, for MIN, JAC, or TEN? I'm willing if you are.

Which is the point - Tebow had a year of going to meetings and carrying the clipboard. And the front office was ready to give him the team, send Orton to hang with LeBron in South Beach, and move on. But now after a handful of 7-7 drills, all of a sudden a 180 reversal? (this is fact and not really in dispute)

Dedhed
08-19-2011, 11:16 AM
What hasn't been answered to? I don't dodge any questions.You haven't answered to the why you would prefer the Broncos sacrifice the future for a lame duck journeyman QB.

Do I believe Orton's the long term future at QB for the Broncos? Nope. I don't. So what. What we're dealing with is the here and now. Not some mystical future.I suppose you don't have an IRA either. Tebow, when given the starting job, was more effective than Orton in the here and now.

According to everyone that says we shouldn't waste any more snaps on Orton, I wonder, should the same go for all the other #1 veteran QBs out there that have never won a SB or who don't appear to be the future of their teams?Yes. Especially where the young, possible, QBOTF has already proven more capable in real games. Even more so when a team is completely rebuilding. Even more so when there's no chance the vet will be there beyond this year. Even more so when the vet is a proven below average QB. Even more so if you have a great QB draft class and want to find out what you really have in the youngster before skipping out on one of them. Even more so if your franchise has been a complete bore for a decade and the vet is among the dullest leaders ever, and the youngsters is an unconventional wild card who brings excitement to every play and money to the owner that can be spent to make the team better.

There are a lot of them. And there's a reason their coaches are going to battle with them over "the potential" that's sitting on the bench.Name two.

jhns
08-19-2011, 11:17 AM
If someone states explicitly that the front office confirmed he was on the trading block back in February, sorry, I'm going to call them on it.

I am ALWAYS forced to provide links and evidence any time I make the smallest, most non-controversial posts here by jhns. I'm certainly going to return the favor when I know for a fact he's making crap up about something fairly important.

I force you to do stuff? Does that mean you are my bitch?

A simple google search is all it would take for you to educate yourself.

Dedhed
08-19-2011, 11:19 AM
Reports? Sorry. There were reports that Peyton Manning was going to test FA too.

There are only reports that Orton looks better than Tebow, right?

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 11:20 AM
You haven't answered to the why you would prefer the Broncos sacrifice the future for a lame duck journeyman QB.

Because I trust the coaches. Period.

Name two.

See my post above.

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 11:21 AM
A simple google search is all it would take for you to educate yourself.

No google search is going to come up with any quotes from the front office that Orton was on the trade block in February. You made it up, as you usually do. Then you say, "I'll find you the proof later. I'm on my phone and it doesn't let me search that way" or something similar. And then you conveniently walk away from the thread and never come back with the evidence.

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 11:22 AM
There are only reports that Orton looks better than Tebow, right?

I'm not quite sure what this is supposed to mean or how it fits in this discussion.

DrFate
08-19-2011, 11:23 AM
See my post above.

I've looked at the post, and I don't see the two examples.

Dedhed
08-19-2011, 11:23 AM
Because I trust the coaches. Period.
You trusted McDaniels?


See my post above.

You haven't given 1 concrete example.

DrFate
08-19-2011, 11:24 AM
I'm not quite sure what this is supposed to mean or how it fits in this discussion.

I'm guessing he means if you don't believe the 'report' about Orton being on the block, why should anyone believe the 'report' that Orton looks better

Dedhed
08-19-2011, 11:25 AM
I'm not quite sure what this is supposed to mean or how it fits in this discussion.

You're stating you don't trust reports. You trust coaches.

The coaches have said the starter hasn't been named. The reports point to Orton. You support Orton. HMMMM...consistent much?

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 11:25 AM
I've looked at the post, and I don't see the two examples.

Every rookie QB not named Newton. Clear enough?

Dedhed
08-19-2011, 11:27 AM
I'm guessing he means if you don't believe the 'report' about Orton being on the block, why should anyone believe the 'report' that Orton looks better
It's nice when reading comprehension is involved in online discussions.

DrFate
08-19-2011, 11:27 AM
Every rookie QB not named Newton. Clear enough?

It's not really a concrete example, but I won't push the matter. (I don't think you want to stick your neck out and give actual names, but whatever)

You want to make a bet on how many of those guys are starting by week 8?

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 11:28 AM
You're stating you don't trust reports. You trust coaches.

The coaches have said the starter hasn't been named. The reports point to Orton. You support Orton. HMMMM...consistent much?

I guess I must've missed the part where anyone other than Orton was named the starter in any practice or preseason game. They've named him the starter every day so far. That makes him the "here and now" starter.

If, come week one, they change everything and name Tebow or Quinn the starter, then I will still trust that the coaches know what they're doing.

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 11:30 AM
It's not really a concrete example, but I won't push the matter. (I don't think you want to stick your neck out and give actual names, but whatever)

You want to make a bet on how many of those guys are starting by week 8?

Not really. Internet bets are dumb and I probably won't be posting here by week 8 anyway.

Shananahan
08-19-2011, 11:30 AM
If, come week one, they change everything and name Tebow or Quinn the starter, then I will still trust that the coaches know what they're doing.
I get the impression you would be first in line to call for Orton at the slightest hint of offensive struggle, though.

Dedhed
08-19-2011, 11:30 AM
Every rookie QB not named Newton. Clear enough?
Carolina is really the only analogous franchise to the Broncos. And you could hardly call Clausen a veteran.

Name two.

Dedhed
08-19-2011, 11:31 AM
I guess I must've missed the part where anyone other than Orton was named the starter in any practice or preseason game. They've named him the starter every day so far. That makes him the "here and now" starter.

If, come week one, they change everything and name Tebow or Quinn the starter, then I will still trust that the coaches know what they're doing.
Nice exit.

DrFate
08-19-2011, 11:31 AM
Not really. Internet bets are dumb and I probably won't be posting here by week 8 anyway.

Going on a trip?

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 11:33 AM
I get the impression you would be first in line to call for Orton at the slightest hint of offensive struggle, though.

You're obviously entitled to your opinion. But I've never been one of those yahoos that yells at the coach from the stands to put the backup in there every time the starter falters. I'm quite the opposite, in fact, which should be fairly obvious. I tend to stick with the starters longer than I should. Stuck with Griese to the end, Plummer to the end, Orton today even though it seems to be an uphill battle.

errand
08-19-2011, 11:34 AM
Delhomme was a much better athlete

....while Orton throws half as many INTs

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 11:34 AM
Carolina is really the only analogous franchise to the Broncos. And you could hardly call Clausen a veteran.

Name two.

Hasselbeck.
McNabb.

DrFate
08-19-2011, 11:36 AM
Stuck with Griese to the end, Plummer to the end, Orton today even though it seems to be an uphill battle.

When I'm sitting down for the 2012 draft, I'd like to KNOW that we need to draft a QB or not. I'd like to KNOW if Tebow is the guy under center for the next 5-7 years or not.

Playing Orton gets Fox 5 or 6 wins, Orton leaves town (cause I can't see Denver giving him Kolb money) and we know exactly what we do today - Tebow might be able to play.

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 11:40 AM
Playing Orton gets Fox 5 or 6 wins, Orton leaves town (cause I can't see Denver giving him Kolb money) and we know exactly what we do today - Tebow might be able to play.

Unless Orton all of a sudden decides that this is the one year of his career that he's going to stay healthy for all 16 games, then we'll know more about Tebow. Plus, there won't be a lockout next year, so they'll actually be able to work with Tim for a few months before the draft. I think they'll know quite a bit more about their future and Tebow's role in it even if he's not the "day one" starter.

bendog
08-19-2011, 11:42 AM
Fox will be able to see whether Tebow can play under center by seeing him take practice reps. This isn't rocket science. The Fox and Elway have repeatedly said what Tebow has to show to get time with the first string. He's no 2 on the depth chart because he's gonna practice each week implementing the game plan. Quinn will run the spy team for the defense.

Tebow can't execute the offense. They've told you. You don't like it. So you refuse to believe it.

bendog
08-19-2011, 11:43 AM
Unless Orton all of a sudden decides that this is the one year of his career that he's going to stay healthy for all 16 games, then we'll know more about Tebow. Plus, there won't be a lockout next year, so they'll actually be able to work with Tim for a few months before the draft. I think they'll know quite a bit more about their future and Tebow's role in it even if he's not the "day one" starter.

Besides, once Den is eliminated from the playoffs, Tebow will start, ready or not, just to give the fans some joy.

jhns
08-19-2011, 11:44 AM
Fox will be able to see whether Tebow can play under center by seeing him take practice reps. This isn't rocket science. The Fox and Elway have repeatedly said what Tebow has to show to get time with the first string. He's no 2 on the depth chart because he's gonna practice each week implementing the game plan. Quinn will run the spy team for the defense.

Tebow can't execute the offense. They've told you. You don't like it. So you refuse to believe it.

They never once told me that Tebow can't execute the offense.

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 11:45 AM
They never once told me that Tebow can't execute the offense.

you can google it

bendog
08-19-2011, 11:45 AM
They never once told me that Tebow can't execute the offense.

It's not my fault you can't understand them.

jhns
08-19-2011, 11:46 AM
you can google it

I just did. Never happened.

jhns
08-19-2011, 11:47 AM
It's not my fault you can't understand them.

Maybe they should learn English then...

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 11:47 AM
I just did. Never happened.

LOL

DrFate
08-19-2011, 11:47 AM
Unless Orton all of a sudden decides that this is the one year of his career that he's going to stay healthy for all 16 games, then we'll know more about Tebow. Plus, there won't be a lockout next year, so they'll actually be able to work with Tim for a few months before the draft. I think they'll know quite a bit more about their future and Tebow's role in it even if he's not the "day one" starter.

My issue with that rationale is I'd like Tebow/Quinn to be getting the reps now, getting the coaching now, playing with the 1s, etc. I can't speak to Orton getting hurt (and if he did would we be surprised of Quinn actually went in the game?)

It's all a knee jerk reaction from the front office, which REALLY worries me. (Tebow...no, Orton. Orton... No, wait!!)

I don't know how much coaching Tebow would get between the end of the regular season and the draft anyway. From what I can tell, the lockout didn't start until the middle of March. (Fox was hired in January) Was Tebow coached up for those two months?

Dedhed
08-19-2011, 11:48 AM
Hasselbeck.
McNabb.
So Ponder and Locker have proven more effective in regular season games than Hasselbeck and McNabb?

Do you really consider those analogous situations. Two Vets who were just brought in with rookies behind them.

DrFate
08-19-2011, 11:48 AM
Tebow can't execute the offense. They've told you. You don't like it. So you refuse to believe it.

When was this?

Powderaddict
08-19-2011, 11:49 AM
....while Orton throws half as many INTs

And has half as many playoff wins. No wait, a quarter as many.

Wait, how much of a percentage is 0? 0%? has 0% as many playoff wins. Playoff appearances even.

Dedhed
08-19-2011, 11:52 AM
Unless Orton all of a sudden decides that this is the one year of his career that he's going to stay healthy for all 16 games, then we'll know more about Tebow. Plus, there won't be a lockout next year, so they'll actually be able to work with Tim for a few months before the draft. I think they'll know quite a bit more about their future and Tebow's role in it even if he's not the "day one" starter.

And then say, in 2012, Tebow shows that he really can't play in this league? We're set back 3 years as a franchise instead of looking at starting Landry Jones (or Barkley, or Luck) because we didn't find out what Tebow can really do and skipped out on a great QB class.

Dedhed
08-19-2011, 11:54 AM
Fox will be able to see whether Tebow can play under center by seeing him take practice reps.

Not when those reps are with guys who likely won't make the team.

DrFate
08-19-2011, 11:55 AM
And then say, in 2012, Tebow shows that he really can't play in this league? We're set back 3 years as a franchise instead of looking at starting Landry Jones (or Barkley, or Luck) because we didn't find out what Tebow can really do and skipped out on a great QB class.

Bingo

It's not some love for Tebow - it's simple reality that the team isn't that good, Orton is below mediocre (and gone) and the team needs to have some idea if the current guys on the roster can play.

errand
08-19-2011, 11:56 AM
That still doesn't explain why there was ZERO interest in the high and mighty Orton.

You're wrong in saying there was zero interest in Orton..the lockout meant nobody could trade...then it lingered thru past the draft and several teams drafted their QB of the future .....some teams balked at the Broncos asking price or in the case of the Titans and Vikes more than likely wanted an older vet the had been to dance before to mentor their 1st round rookies vs acquiring a Qb just entering his prime. .doesn't matter....he's in denver still

Shananahan
08-19-2011, 11:57 AM
You're obviously entitled to your opinion. But I've never been one of those yahoos that yells at the coach from the stands to put the backup in there every time the starter falters. I'm quite the opposite, in fact, which should be fairly obvious. I tend to stick with the starters longer than I should. Stuck with Griese to the end, Plummer to the end, Orton today even though it seems to be an uphill battle.
That's all fine and dandy to be supportive, but it's clearly not the same with Griese and Plummer. When Griese was sucking the other option was Steve Beuerlein. When Plummer was sucking he was really sucking, and Jay Cutler was all shiny and new with talent out the ass.

You could argue that Orton hasn't truly been sucking, but don't give me this 'seems to be an uphill battle' nonsense. It's clearly an uphill battle when you are trying to make a case for a guy who hasn't won games, has probably hit his ceiling talent-wise, has no long-term future with the team and is in front of two younger QBs with more talent, potential and years on their contracts.

The only thing I can come up with for you and the other staunch Orton supporters is that you just like the guy more than Quinn or Tebow.

errand
08-19-2011, 12:02 PM
And then say, in 2012, Tebow shows that he really can't play in this league? We're set back 3 years as a franchise instead of looking at starting Landry Jones (or Barkley, or Luck) because we didn't find out what Tebow can really do and skipped out on a great QB class.

..yeah, maybe......or another scenario is that Kyle plays very well and the running game and defense is greatly improved and we finish at 10-6 or better,make the playoffs and the Broncos re-sign him.

DrFate
08-19-2011, 12:02 PM
You're wrong in saying there was zero interest in Orton..

I have no idea how this jives with reality. Arizona gave up picks and players for Kolb. Minnesota gave up picks for McNabb.

There are a half-dozen (vocal) people on this board who want to tell me that Kyle Orton is Dan Marino reincarnated. And yet 31 teams passed on trading for him when all they had to give up was a 3rd round pick?

Please reconcile the following:

1) Kyle Orton was on the block
2) At least 5 teams were in the market for a QB
3) the price was fairly low for an under thirty veteran QB
4) No one was willing to trade


And yet you say there WAS a demand?

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 12:03 PM
The only thing I can come up with for you and the other staunch Orton supporters is that you just like the guy more than Quinn or Tebow.

Or we trust the head coach and his staff to make the right calls because they know more than we do and see day in and day out what each guy does practically every minute of the day. Why this keeps getting ignored mystifies me.

bendog
08-19-2011, 12:06 PM
Or we trust the head coach and his staff to make the right calls because they know more than we do and see day in and day out what each guy does practically every minute of the day. Why this keeps getting ignored mystifies me.

Fox and John are just trying to ruin the guy by making him practice those five step drops and qick reads that Fox's offense uses. They just need to let tim be tim. He's not a practice player. He needs to act on his reflexes, scambel a lot, pass after he's over the line of scrimmage ... and stuff.

DrFate
08-19-2011, 12:06 PM
Or we trust the head coach and his staff to make the right calls because they know more than we do and see day in and day out what each guy does practically every minute of the day. Why this keeps getting ignored mystifies me.

Fox gets paid to make these decisions, not me. True. That doesn't make me a mindless drone who simply nods at every move. If that were the case we wouldn't need this forum or talk radio or any similar outlet.

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 12:07 PM
So Ponder and Locker have proven more effective in regular season games than Hasselbeck and McNabb?

Do you really consider those analogous situations. Two Vets who were just brought in with rookies behind them.

Well, if I'm limited to the 2010 draft class, that makes any argument impossible because the sample size is so small and there are really no comparable situations there either.

TailgateNut
08-19-2011, 12:08 PM
Or we trust the head coach and his staff to make the right calls because they know more than we do and see day in and day out what each guy does practically every minute of the day. Why this keeps getting ignored mystifies me.

They are the "new and improved fanbase" who will kick and scream until they get their way. Realities be damned and no one on the coaching staff nor the FO of the organization knows better than they do.

****ing spoiled little children. Waaahhhh, we want Tebow, waaaah we want Tebow....waaaah.

Well hold your breath until you ****ing croak or he finally shows that he has earned the spot.

TailgateNut
08-19-2011, 12:10 PM
Fox and John are just trying to ruin the guy by making him practice those five step drops and qick reads that Fox's offense uses. They just need to let tim be tim. He's not a practice player. He needs to act on his reflexes, scambel a lot, pass after he's over the line of scrimmage ... and stuff.


Playbooks and schemes be damned, just go out there and win.LOL Improvise on every play and we'll build the teasm to suit your flaws.

DrFate
08-19-2011, 12:11 PM
Playbooks and schemes be damned, just go out there and win.LOL Improvise on every play and we'll build the teasm to suit your flaws.

What was your boy Orton's record last year again?

TailgateNut
08-19-2011, 12:16 PM
What was your boy Orton's record last year again?


Hey dillwad, did he play QB, oline, receiver special teams, kickr, punter and 'efense? Is football a team sport?

We ****ing sucked last year. WE being the key word. Get it? ...or were you too busy drooling over Teblow on the sidelines?

Shananahan
08-19-2011, 12:19 PM
Or we trust the head coach and his staff to make the right calls because they know more than we do and see day in and day out what each guy does practically every minute of the day. Why this keeps getting ignored mystifies me.
So once a person forms an opinion about the team that runs counter to what the team is doing they're guilty of disregarding the knowledge and experience of the coach and staff. That makes sense.

TheReverend
08-19-2011, 12:20 PM
They are the "new and improved fanbase" who will kick and scream until they get their way. Realities be damned and no one on the coaching staff nor the FO of the organization knows better than they do.

****ing spoiled little children. Waaahhhh, we want Tebow, waaaah we want Tebow....waaaah.

Well hold your breath until you ****ing croak or he finally shows that he has earned the spot.

Dream sequence back to 2009:

I <3 Josh McDaniels.

All you haters aren't real fans

DrFate
08-19-2011, 12:21 PM
I'll help you out (you certainly need it)

3-10

DrFate
08-19-2011, 12:23 PM
Tebow can't execute the offense. They've told you. You don't like it. So you refuse to believe it.

When was this?

You never answered my question

Powderaddict
08-19-2011, 12:29 PM
Hey dillwad, did he play QB, oline, receiver special teams, kickr, punter and 'efense? Is football a team sport?

We ****ing sucked last year. WE being the key word. Get it? ...or were you too busy drooling over Teblow on the sidelines?

So did the entire team EXCEPT Orton suck?

Or was he also part of (not the entire) the problem?

DrFate
08-19-2011, 12:30 PM
So did the entire team EXCEPT Orton suck?


Yep. He was fantastic. :spit:

Beantown Bronco
08-19-2011, 12:31 PM
So once a person forms an opinion about the team that runs counter to what the team is doing they're guilty of disregarding the knowledge and experience of the coach and staff. That makes sense.

Ummmm, yeah. That's EXACTLY what they're doing. Now, they may be right and the coaches may be wrong, but they're still technically disregarding the knowledge and experience of the coach and staff.

Cito Pelon
08-19-2011, 12:31 PM
Eh, we'll see if Tebow has the goods. He has THREE games to show he has the goods, and it sure looks like the staff will give him every chance. We'll see.

bendog
08-19-2011, 12:40 PM
Before the dallas game

"But from the start of this year's camp, Tebow has seemed hesitant. He often needs an extra tick to find an open receiver. His much criticized elongated delivery remains a work in progress, as coaches like to say when they're trying to be nice.

There are times when Tebow's passes zip in accurately and on time. There are other passes that sail, bounce or just miss.

...
Whatever the reason, practice hasn't been where Tebow has shined. Tebow needs a game."


Read more: Preseason opener gives Denver Broncos quarterback Tim Tebow a shot to shine - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_18658071#ixzz1VVO2Ya2S
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

So he gets in, runs across the fiield, reverses and runs back, goes over the line, makes a pass, and there are three penalties on one play. He goes to the bench, and Fox talks to him, and then rubs his head. The after game quote is "His MO is that he likes to improvise."

I hope the guy pans out. He's not a bad guy, but more importantly I don't think we can suck as bad as cinny or buff, and we'll not have any shot at luck. It'll take at least 8 games for Den to be eliminated. He's got about three months to work on his foot work and reads.

Shananahan
08-19-2011, 12:44 PM
Ummmm, yeah. That's EXACTLY what they're doing. Now, they may be right and the coaches may be wrong, but they're still technically disregarding the knowledge and experience of the coach and staff.
No chance that they might just simply disagree, huh?

It's absurd to make it that black and white, and it's absurd to accuse anybody who thinks Orton shouldn't be starting of ignoring the experience of the coach and staff.

bendog
08-19-2011, 12:47 PM
it's absurd to accuse anybody who thinks Orton shouldn't be starting of ignoring the experience of the coach and staff.

ah, no. Now if Fox stinks it up as bad as McD, then maybe there's reason to start second guessing.

Dedhed
08-19-2011, 12:48 PM
Ummmm, yeah. That's EXACTLY what they're doing. Now, they may be right and the coaches may be wrong, but they're still technically disregarding the knowledge and experience of the coach and staff.
Now, if coaches were infallible, you'd have a point. Ehem...McDaniels...ehem.

Part of the coach's job is PR. When no one wanted Orton, Fox had a PR nightmare on his hands. The Locker room always leans towards the incumbent (safe bet), especially where veterans are concerned who don't want to admit they're on a rebuilding team.

Keeping Orton #1 on the depth chart, THUS FAR, is nothing more than PR 101. The locker room needs to realize that Orton doesn't give them the best chance to win before Fox anoints Tebow.

It's pretty clear to anyone paying attention that the FO was looking to avoid all this by getting rid of Orton. But given the inability to move him, they're stuck with playing the PR game.

jhns
08-19-2011, 12:50 PM
The experience of the staff is half of the reason that I question them. Fox has always played **** QBs, Elway has no experience, and the rest of the front office was here tanking the franchise the last two seasons...

The other reason I question them is because they named Orton starter soon after Tebow completely outplayed him in live games. It isn't like he barely outplayed Orton. He outplayed Orton by a lot. I will always question a staff that thinks the game tapes lie.

INbronco
08-19-2011, 03:28 PM
Sure is a lot of hot air going around in here.

My reading of the situation is that Denver FO put Orton up for trade this spring at stated price and only taker was Miami; means they thought Orton was better than what they had. We came to terms with Miami but Orton wanted a multi year contract/amount they were unwilling to pay so deal fell through. When training camp finally started FO said "holy ****. we can't start Tebow; he's not ready yet" so Orton has to carry us until they judge Tebow is ready. Doesn't have to do with fan base opinions, just good football sense.

Glad to see there may be battle between Brady and Kyle to carry us for awhile. When Tebow gets his **** together, then he will be chosen to start. Until then he has to sit and learn. If he doesn't get it together by years end we will draft another QB. What's wrong with that?

Bet we see a lot of experimenting at QB this season; we won't be committed to anyone unless they play mistake free football.

Doesn't matter if your Orton or Tebow, that's the way it is.

So, flame away fools.

broncs2bowl
08-19-2011, 03:39 PM
Sure is a lot of hot air going around in here.

My reading of the situation is that Denver FO put Orton up for trade this spring at stated price and only taker was Miami; means they thought Orton was better than what they had. We came to terms with Miami but Orton wanted a multi year contract/amount they were unwilling to pay so deal fell through. When training camp finally started FO said "holy ****. we can't start Tebow; he's not ready yet" so Orton has to carry us until they judge Tebow is ready. Doesn't have to do with fan base opinions, just good football sense.

Glad to see there may be battle between Brady and Kyle to carry us for awhile. When Tebow gets his **** together, then he will be chosen to start. Until then he has to sit and learn. If he doesn't get it together by years end we will draft another QB. What's wrong with that?

Bet we see a lot of experimenting at QB this season; we won't be committed to anyone unless they play mistake free football.

Doesn't matter if your Orton or Tebow, that's the way it is.

So, flame away fools.

^Everyone read this cuz it is perfect

DrFate
08-19-2011, 03:48 PM
When training camp finally started FO said "holy ****. we can't start Tebow; he's not ready yet" so Orton has to carry us until they judge Tebow is ready.

So you are saying the new front office was more than willing to go with Tebow before camp, but now is convinced "holy ****, we can't start Tebow; he's not ready yet"

I am not brimming with confidence if this is the case

broncs2bowl
08-19-2011, 03:57 PM
So you are saying the new front office was more than willing to go with Tebow before camp, but now is convinced "holy ****, we can't start Tebow; he's not ready yet"

I am not brimming with confidence if this is the case

they never saw him make a single throw in person.....or make a throw repeatedly with accuracy....until camp

DrFate
08-19-2011, 04:15 PM
they never saw him make a single throw in person.....or make a throw repeatedly with accuracy....until camp

It's called 'game film' - it was invented a long time ago.

I'm not even saying you are wrong - I'm saying it is very unsettling that they had inside info from an entire year from the coaching staff (McCoy) as well as game tape from 3 real NFL games, and they were driving Orton to the airport. They had from JAN to JUL to make a decision, and the decision was to move forward with Tebow.

And a couple days of watching Orton play catch and the entire franchise is turned in a different direction?

errand
08-19-2011, 05:52 PM
And has half as many playoff wins. No wait, a quarter as many.

Wait, how much of a percentage is 0? 0%? has 0% as many playoff wins. Playoff appearances even.

Your right kyle orton has not won a playoff game ... however he also has not thrown 5 interceptions in a playoff game either

errand
08-19-2011, 06:03 PM
I have no idea how this jives with reality. Arizona gave up picks and players for Kolb. Minnesota gave up picks for McNabb.

There are a half-dozen (vocal) people on this board who want to tell me that Kyle Orton is Dan Marino reincarnated. And yet 31 teams passed on trading for him when all they had to give up was a 3rd round pick?

Please reconcile the following:

1) Kyle Orton was on the block
2) At least 5 teams were in the market for a QB
3) the price was fairly low for an under thirty veteran QB
4) No one was willing to trade


And yet you say there WAS a demand?
Please name these half dozen people who made the claim that he was dan marino reincarnate? And yes there was interest because when kyle orton was allegedly put on the trading block as you like to say teams called asking the broncos price.... so basically if a team called the broncos and said hey what do you want for kyle orton... then that means there was interest regardless of whether they bought or walked away there was still interest

errand
08-19-2011, 06:12 PM
I'll help you out (you certainly need it)

3-10

You do realize that 1 time john elway finished last .... and that wasn't in his first yr second year either he was a well seasoned veteran and his team went 5-11......so unless last place finishes become common I wouldn't be too worried about a season where a guy winning only 3 of 13 games on a suck-ass team

DrFate
08-19-2011, 06:20 PM
You do realize that 1 time john elway finished last .... and that wasn't in his first yr second year either he was a well seasoned veteran and his team went 5-11......so unless last place finishes become common I wouldn't be too worried about a season where a guy winning only 3 of 13 games on a suck-ass team

Comparing Orton to Elway...

Got it

DrFate
08-19-2011, 06:26 PM
so basically if a team called the broncos and said hey what do you want for kyle orton... then that means there was interest regardless of whether they bought or walked away there was still interest

NFL franchises decided to play 2011 with quarterbacks like Tavaris Jackson and Chad Henne rather than trade for Orton. What does that tell you?

Simply because someone walks into the store doesn't mean they have any intent of buying...

errand
08-19-2011, 06:28 PM
So did the entire team EXCEPT Orton suck?

Or was he also part of (not the entire) the problem?

orton didn't suck..... however if you want to claim that he was part of the problem sure okay fine ..... however he is not the end all of the problems are you guys claim is. Amazingly we say orton can win if we fix the big problems on the team the little ones will fix themselves.... you clowns keep sayin put Tebow in and problems are all solved this team will win regardless if we ever fix the defense cuz tebow can overcome them....

Br0nc0Buster
08-19-2011, 06:32 PM
Comparing Orton to Elway...

Got it

not reallly
more like showing that total record is not always a direct reflection of the quarterback

DrFate
08-19-2011, 06:33 PM
you clowns keep sayin put Tebow in and problems are all solved this team will win regardless if we ever fix the defense cuz tebow can overcome them....

Please include a single quote where someone said that. Just one.

errand
08-19-2011, 06:34 PM
NFL franchises decided to play 2011 with quarterbacks like Tavaris Jackson and Chad Henne rather than trade for Orton. What does that tell you?

Simply because someone walks into the store doesn't mean they have any intent of buying...
But walking into the store shows interest in the product the store has......regardless of whether they buy them or not they were interested enough to go into the store..... sometimes people say no it's too expensive and others say we could just go ahead and grow our own.... once again the clown claimed that there was no interest in kyle orton...however there was interest because people did call and ask

DrFate
08-19-2011, 06:35 PM
more like showing that total record is not always a direct reflection of the quarterback

That's pretty obvious. I have no clue where he came up with that comment - it was out of thin air.

DrFate
08-19-2011, 06:37 PM
But walking into the store shows interest in the product the store has

Sometimes people go in the store just to look around and have no interest of buying anything. Look at the QBs that were signed INSTEAD OF Kyle Orton.

It really says a lot about his value to the league as whole.

errand
08-19-2011, 06:40 PM
Comparing Orton to Elway...

Got it

No I'm stating a fact...... john elway also finished last in the afc west just like orton did. My question to you is are you gonna blame elway for 5- 11 record? I'm sure john made his fair share of mistakes that year but he was not was not THE problem with the team. And kyle was not THE problem with the broncos last year.

errand
08-19-2011, 06:43 PM
Please include a single quote where someone said that. Just one.

Sure.... just as soon as you provide a quote where anyone said Kyle orton was dan marino reincarnated

errand
08-19-2011, 06:49 PM
Sometimes people go in the store just to look around and have no interest of buying anything. Look at the QBs that were signed INSTEAD OF Kyle Orton.

It really says a lot about his value to the league as whole. I thought that the miami deal fell through because kyle was asking for a long term contract .....is that correct?

DivineLegion
08-19-2011, 07:01 PM
8 wins with a top 15 defense. If he needs everything perfect, he isn't cut out for this league. Him getting injured every year isn't a positive in the argument for him.

8 wins with a good defense, and no running game. The latter part of my previous statement is the most important aspect of winning football games Mr. Fox is rejuvinating in Denver.

Smart QB who can make big plays (see Lloyd's #'s last season)
+Good running team (With a stable of competant RB's)
+Solid defense that forces turnovers, and stops the run
--------------------------------------------------------
= Season record > 8-8 IMHO

John Fox has a winning formula that he derived from working under coaches like Dick LeBeau, Jim Fassel, Chuck Noll, and Bobby Ross.

DivineLegion
08-19-2011, 07:05 PM
This is pretty cool, I started this thread as a semi-joke, and by the time I woked up this thing turned into a monster with 7 pages of infighting.

DrFate
08-19-2011, 07:37 PM
Sure.... just as soon as you provide a quote where anyone said Kyle orton was dan marino reincarnated

What I said was hyperbole (people are WAY overinflating Orton and that was how I chose to express it) - I'm man enough to admit it was hyperbole.

What you said is simply untrue -will you admit it as well?

bendog
08-20-2011, 06:17 AM
He hasn't ever been taught how to position his hands to take a snap under center......

what Elway was doing for much of the time was simply showing Tebow how he should position his hands to accept a snap from center.

Tebow, behind center, has a tendency to split his hands leaving some room in between so when the ball comes up from center he bobbles it at times. There have been many snaps, in both training camp practices and in the preseason opener, where Tebow has either had the ball pop up on him, causing him to bobble it, or the ball has hit the ground.

That's just one example of a fundamental Tebow has to work on



Read more: Q&A: Broncos' Tebow must learn to be patient in the pocket - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_18719025#ixzz1VZhN226b
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

strafen
08-20-2011, 06:40 AM
This is pretty cool, I started this thread as a semi-joke, and by the time I woked up this thing turned into a monster with 7 pages of infighting.Anytime you see a threaad gone 4 pages, it's almost guaranteed to have drama, fighting in it, not to mention they will be discussing something totally different by then. Moderation will shine by its absence LOL

boppool
08-20-2011, 09:26 AM
I don't put a lot of weight on Long's opinion. He talked about how tough Orton fought back, trying to bring back Broncos...

Let's be realistic here. how often were Rams actually ahead of other teams?