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ZachKC
08-15-2011, 12:37 PM
Interesting to think about. Kansas City 5th on the list.

http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/on-numbers/scott-thomas/2011/08/denver-is-most-overextended-market.html?ana=twt

Denver is under more financial stress than any other professional-sports market in North America, according to a new On Numbers study.

Denver heads a list of 20 overextended markets, all of which have insufficient income bases to support their existing major-league teams. Complete rankings can be found in the database below.

On Numbers analyzed 85 metropolitan areas in the United States and Canada to determine if they have the financial ability to support professional teams in baseball, football, basketball, hockey and soccer. Click here for the complete methodology.

The Denver area would need total personal income (TPI) of $209.3 billion to provide an adequate base for its five existing teams, according to the study. (TPI is the sum of all money earned by all residents in a given year.) But Denverís actual TPI is $121.9 billion, yielding an income deficit of $87.4 billion.

This shortfall doesnít necessarily mean that any of Denverís teams will move or fold. But itís a reliable sign that those teams can expect continued volatility in attendance and revenues.

Nineteen other markets are overextended, based on estimates by On Numbers. Among them are five areas with TPI deficits larger than $50 billion: Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Tampa-St. Petersburg, Kansas City and Milwaukee.
The other 65 metros included in the study either have sufficient income to support their existing franchises or donít have any major-league teams at all.

Mogulseeker
08-15-2011, 12:47 PM
Ship the Rockies out.

v2micca
08-15-2011, 12:51 PM
Ship the Rockies out.

I doubt many National League teams will miss having to pitch at Coor's Field.

Peoples Champ
08-15-2011, 12:51 PM
my guess is that becuase their is so much other things to do in Denver (ski / hike / etc) that profession sports suffer. Along with the good weather like San Diego. The midwest, south, and east coast have more extreme weather making people focus on their sports franchises.

Oklahoma City just dominated attendence numbers because their is nothing to do there. But I just dont see OKC as a sports town.

alkemical
08-15-2011, 12:53 PM
It's due to the rising cost of the taxes to build the stadiums, as well as the rising cost to even attend these events.

The NFL has killed it's bread and butter by not making it affordable to go, yet the consumer class that buys jersey's, dvd's, NFL sunday ticket, etc etc etc - Supported this rise in cost. Now that the bottom fell out, there's no sustainability to get the income via concessions, gate prices, parking, etc etc.

What made it great, killed it.

Peoples Champ
08-15-2011, 12:55 PM
It's due to the rising cost of the taxes to build the stadiums, as well as the rising cost to even attend these events.

The NFL has killed it's bread and butter by not making it affordable to go, yet the consumer class that buys jersey's, dvd's, NFL sunday ticket, etc etc etc - Supported this rise in cost. Now that the bottom fell out, there's no sustainability to get the income via concessions, gate prices, parking, etc etc.

What made it great, killed it.

i concur

tsiguy96
08-15-2011, 12:56 PM
It's due to the rising cost of the taxes to build the stadiums, as well as the rising cost to even attend these events.

The NFL has killed it's bread and butter by not making it affordable to go, yet the consumer class that buys jersey's, dvd's, NFL sunday ticket, etc etc etc - Supported this rise in cost. Now that the bottom fell out, there's no sustainability to get the income via concessions, gate prices, parking, etc etc.

What made it great, killed it.

im very curious if numbers start to fall, not rise, for the NFL. it really is way too expensive to go to multiple games a year for a lot of people, and you can have as good a time watching it at home or at a bar.

ZachKC
08-15-2011, 12:57 PM
I think MLB as a sports is bland and uninteresting.

Agamemnon
08-15-2011, 12:58 PM
I've never heard that any of the Denver teams are really struggling on the attendance front. Though I really only follow the Broncos and they have sold out for decades.

I wonder if they take the entire state into account. It's not like back east where big cities are right next to each other. Denver has all of Colorado and Wyoming (which adds a couple million people).

ZachKC
08-15-2011, 12:58 PM
The NFL has killed it's bread and butter by not making it affordable to go

It might happen but it hasn't yet.

bronco militia
08-15-2011, 12:59 PM
I wonder if the numbers change if they include the entire state. A lof of fans/$$ is left out if they don't include the entire state/rocky mountain region.

Beantown Bronco
08-15-2011, 01:00 PM
my guess is that becuase their is so much other things to do in Denver (ski / hike / etc) that profession sports suffer. Along with the good weather like San Diego. The midwest, south, and east coast have more extreme weather making people focus on their sports franchises.

Not Boston. It's just as easy for me to access top notch local hiking and areas in Vermont, NH and Maine as it is for downtown Denver residents to find the same. And we're also right on the ocean and all that comes with it, which Denver certainly doesn't have.

alkemical
08-15-2011, 01:01 PM
It might happen but it hasn't yet.

http://www.businessinsider.com/real-employment-rate-47-percent-2011-1#ixzz1V7PNGZQ5

Yet*.....Several friends have dropped Sunday Ticket due to cost. Revenues will start decreasing, you have more and more people making less and less.

alkemical
08-15-2011, 01:01 PM
Not Boston. It's just as easy for me to access top notch local hiking and areas in Vermont, NH and Maine as it is for downtown Denver residents to find the same.

Same here in South-Central-PA.

ZachKC
08-15-2011, 01:02 PM
http://www.businessinsider.com/real-employment-rate-47-percent-2011-1#ixzz1V7PNGZQ5

Yet*.....Several friends have dropped Sunday Ticket due to cost. Revenues will start decreasing.

Well it is certain then.

ROFL!

alkemical
08-15-2011, 01:03 PM
Well it is certain then.

ROFL!

it's an indication of a trend that is going to happen. Look at Bowlen, he's obviously got some $ problems right now. You have a larger scale workforce making less $.

Check the link out and look at some of the data and see if it's feasible for $8/hr workers to make it to an NFL game.


You know what's going to be a big market here soon: Authenticity.

With the advent of 3d printing - "authentic" is going to be the new "organic".

OBF1
08-15-2011, 01:03 PM
I lived in Denver for years.... Must have missed the "In Denver" ski resorts. I always had to drive and hour or more to get to my favorites.

Agamemnon
08-15-2011, 01:03 PM
Not Boston. It's just as easy for me to access top notch local hiking and areas in Vermont, NH and Maine as it is for downtown Denver residents to find the same. And we're also right on the ocean and all that comes with it, which Denver certainly doesn't have.

LOL at the notion that hiking around Boston comes even remotely close to hiking in the Rockie Mountains. That's rich.

ZachKC
08-15-2011, 01:04 PM
it's an indication of a trend that is going to happen. Look at Bowlen, he's obviously got some $ problems right now. You have a larger scale workforce making less $.

Check the link out and look at some of the data and see if it's feasible for $8/hr workers to make it to an NFL game.

Your sample group is....


"several of your friends"

Just saying.

alkemical
08-15-2011, 01:06 PM
Your sample group is....


"several of your friends"

Just saying.


Missed the link to show some trending information, eh?

http://www.businessinsider.com/real-employment-rate-47-percent-2011-1#ixzz1V7PNGZQ5

Come on, either you're better than that or you're just trolling.

Either way, **** off!

bronco militia
08-15-2011, 01:07 PM
what a joke. they are only counting Denver-Aurora-Broomfield....

here is what they left out:

http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/datacenter/metropolitan-total-personal-income.html?appSession=57778272335197

Garcia Bronco
08-15-2011, 01:07 PM
The number of buyers in the market for the NFL far exceeds any ability to see a price reduction. That's why I wanted a full of season ending lockout.

bendog
08-15-2011, 01:07 PM
Nfl attendance has fallen three straight years. But except for the avs, Den teams draw. The study is flawed in that not all cities will have populations that spend discretionary income in the same ways. For example, in KC mullets, camaros and fat women with tatoos on sagging breasts and flabby triceps are in demand. In Oak, it's meth and old star wars regalia.

http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/current_attendance.shtml

http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

http://espn.go.com/nfl/attendance/_/year/2010

alkemical
08-15-2011, 01:08 PM
Nfl attendance has fallen three straight years. But except for the avs, Den teams draw. The study is flawed in that not all cities will have populations that spend discretionary income in the same ways. For example, in KC mullets, camaros and fat women with tatoos on sagging breasts and flabby triceps are in demand. In Oak, it's meth and old star wars regalia.

http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/current_attendance.shtml

http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

http://espn.go.com/nfl/attendance/_/year/2010


No way man, NFL is having a decline in attendance?

Pffft - there's no trend there.

:****son ZachKC:

ZachKC
08-15-2011, 01:09 PM
Missed the link to show some trending information, eh?

http://www.businessinsider.com/real-employment-rate-47-percent-2011-1#ixzz1V7PNGZQ5

Come on, either you're better than that or you're just trolling.

Either way, **** off!

Several of my friends picked up the NFL package this year.

Obviously you are wrong.

ROFL!

ZachKC
08-15-2011, 01:10 PM
No way man, NFL is having a decline in attendance?

Pffft - there's no trend there.

:****son ZachKC:

I never said that.

alkemical
08-15-2011, 01:10 PM
Several of my friends picked up the NFL package this year.

Obviously you are wrong.


I included information to back up trends that I see happening.

Meanwhile, you prove that KC Fans don't read so well...derp derp derp.

alkemical
08-15-2011, 01:12 PM
I never said that.

You're definitely as smart as you look. You really aren't missing those chromosomes.

ZachKC
08-15-2011, 01:13 PM
You're definitely as smart as you look. You really aren't missing those chromosomes.

You said the NFL has killed the Golden Goose...I said that has not happened yet. That is the only claim I have made. You are the one talking about your friends and posting rebuttal links to things I am not saying.

broncosteven
08-15-2011, 01:14 PM
Interesting to think about. Kansas City 5th on the list.

http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/on-numbers/scott-thomas/2011/08/denver-is-most-overextended-market.html?ana=twt

Denver is under more financial stress than any other professional-sports market in North America, according to a new On Numbers study.

Denver heads a list of 20 overextended markets, all of which have insufficient income bases to support their existing major-league teams. Complete rankings can be found in the database below.

On Numbers analyzed 85 metropolitan areas in the United States and Canada to determine if they have the financial ability to support professional teams in baseball, football, basketball, hockey and soccer. Click here for the complete methodology.

The Denver area would need total personal income (TPI) of $209.3 billion to provide an adequate base for its five existing teams, according to the study. (TPI is the sum of all money earned by all residents in a given year.) But Denverís actual TPI is $121.9 billion, yielding an income deficit of $87.4 billion.

This shortfall doesnít necessarily mean that any of Denverís teams will move or fold. But itís a reliable sign that those teams can expect continued volatility in attendance and revenues.

Nineteen other markets are overextended, based on estimates by On Numbers. Among them are five areas with TPI deficits larger than $50 billion: Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Tampa-St. Petersburg, Kansas City and Milwaukee.
The other 65 metros included in the study either have sufficient income to support their existing franchises or donít have any major-league teams at all.

So if KFC had an NHL and NBA franchise wouldn't they go higher on the list? Not sure I follow his logic, Denver has Pro Football, Hockey, Baseball, and that basketball thing. I agree that is a lot for the metro area but from the people I have met at tailgates there are Bronco ticket holders from NM, Wyoming, SD, Kansas, Nebraska, not sure about the other sports.

enjolras
08-15-2011, 01:14 PM
what a joke. they are only counting Denver-Aurora-Broomfield....

here is what they left out:

http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/datacenter/metropolitan-total-personal-income.html?appSession=57778272335197

Exactly that. Attendance figures and TV markets say that Denver is just fine.

ZachKC
08-15-2011, 01:14 PM
I included information to back up trends that I see happening.

Meanwhile, you prove that KC Fans don't read so well...derp derp derp.

You are creating fake arguments and declaring yourself the winner of them.

You know who else does that? Women.

DaFace
08-15-2011, 01:15 PM
what a joke. they are only counting Denver-Aurora-Broomfield....

here is what they left out:

http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/datacenter/metropolitan-total-personal-income.html?appSession=57778272335197

While true, the same general idea happens in every market; Denver's not unique in that respect. I seriously doubt you'd see substantial movement in the rankings if you extended the radius included.

ZachKC
08-15-2011, 01:15 PM
So if KFC had an NHL and NBA franchise wouldn't they go higher on the list? Not sure I follow his logic, Denver has Pro Football, Hockey, Baseball, and that basketball thing. I agree that is a lot for the metro area but from the people I have met at tailgates there are Bronco ticket holders from NM, Wyoming, SD, Kansas, Nebraska, not sure about the other sports.

Where do you come away with that? I imagine KC would be at the very top of the list.

broncosteven
08-15-2011, 01:15 PM
You are creating fake arguments and declaring yourself the winner of them.

You know who else does that? Women.

Are you saying women are inferior?

Beantown Bronco
08-15-2011, 01:15 PM
LOL at the notion that hiking around Boston comes even remotely close to hiking in the Rockie Mountains. That's rich.

Nowhere did I compare the hiking here to there. Once again you've proven your inability to read and comprehend anything.

RhymesayersDU
08-15-2011, 01:16 PM
Your sample group is....


"several of your friends"

Just saying.

It's anecdotal evidence that supports his inital position; it MUST be true.

NFLBRONCO
08-15-2011, 01:16 PM
We need a Billonaire owner here now come on SoCal buy the Broncos :)

ZachKC
08-15-2011, 01:17 PM
Are you saying women are inferior?

No. If I wanted to say that I would have written it.

alkemical
08-15-2011, 01:17 PM
You said the NFL has killed the Golden Goose...I said that has not happened yet. That is the only claim I have made. You are the one talking about your friends and posting rebuttal links to things I am not saying.

Trends show otherwise. You know, those financial links and attendance links.

You look at corporate structure, the NFL Network isn't doing that well - their content is getting worse - it's only a matter of time before they start losing advertising revenue.

they're cannibalizing their own product, and it's not sustainable.

I'm sorry if links and data pointing to trends prove you wrong...Well, that's reality.

People will drop the NFL ticket and NFL costs* before they drop cellphones.

ZachKC
08-15-2011, 01:19 PM
Trends show otherwise. You know, those financial links and attendance links.

You look at corporate structure, the NFL Network isn't doing that well - their content is getting worse - it's only a matter of time before they start losing advertising revenue.

they're cannibalizing their own product, and it's not sustainable.

I'm sorry if links and data pointing to trends prove you wrong...Well, that's reality.

People will drop the NFL ticket and NFL costs* before they drop cellphones.

I have no problems with your data.

I just don't think trends that show small declines = killing the golden goose.

alkemical
08-15-2011, 01:19 PM
It's anecdotal evidence that supports his inital position; it MUST be true.

Actually, the links by Bendog, the links to the unemployment situation - and being that I live in a megalopolis and am seeing wide spread downturn in "excess" spending leads me to see a larger trend that will continue with the rising cost of the NFL product.

Yeah, i mean - who'd ever use facts and statistics to watch overall trends to see where things might be going?!

ZachKC
08-15-2011, 01:21 PM
Actually, the links by Bendog, the links to the unemployment situation - and being that I live in a megalopolis and am seeing wide spread downturn in "excess" spending leads me to see a larger trend that will continue with the rising cost of the NFL product.

Yeah, i mean - who'd ever use facts and statistics to watch overall trends to see where things might be going?!

If your original point was that you are seeing declines in revenue and attendance for the NFL I would agree.

But you said "they killed the Golden Goose" which is silly.

Your words. Not mine.
Your drama. Not mine.

gunns
08-15-2011, 01:21 PM
I've never heard that any of the Denver teams are really struggling on the attendance front. Though I really only follow the Broncos and they have sold out for decades.

I wonder if they take the entire state into account. It's not like back east where big cities are right next to each other. Denver has all of Colorado and Wyoming (which adds a couple million people).

Utah also. We always get the Denver games, in fact they broadcast the preseason game last Thursday.

Beantown Bronco
08-15-2011, 01:21 PM
It's clear that directv is feeling the pinch and is losing Sunday Ticket customers if for no other reason than Exhibit A: their "free Sunday Ticket to new subscribers" offer this year. No way they do that if all is well.

DomCasual
08-15-2011, 01:21 PM
Ship the Rockies out.

Right. Because the Rockies are only on pace to average just under 3 million in attendance this year. And other than the Nuggets, they've made the playoffs more recently than any of the others. They're clearly a problem.

RaiderH8r
08-15-2011, 01:22 PM
I wonder if the numbers change if they include the entire state. A lof of fans/$$ is left out if they don't include the entire state/rocky mountain region.

That is an excellent point. I know I made the trip from Montana at least once a season, usually moreso, to attend Broncos games. I suspect the same goes for KC with all them Camaroheads making the jaunt to see the lowly Queefs. The Queefs are gooch gobblers with retards for fans but they're loyal retards I'll give them that.

DomCasual
08-15-2011, 01:22 PM
Utah also. We always get the Denver games, in fact they broadcast the preseason game last Thursday.

Seriously? Where? I did a search on DirecTv, and it didn't get me anything. I ended up paying for the NFL.com feed.

alkemical
08-15-2011, 01:24 PM
You are creating fake arguments and declaring yourself the winner of them.

You know who else does that? Women.



I have no problems with your data.

I just don't think trends that show small declines = killing the golden goose.


I wouldn't invest in the NFL if it were publicly traded:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/448364-nfl-ticket-prices-rise-while-attendance-drops-what-are-the-owners-thinking

DaFace
08-15-2011, 01:24 PM
It's clear that directv is feeling the pinch and is losing Sunday Ticket customers if for no other reason than Exhibit A: their "free Sunday Ticket to new subscribers" offer this year. No way they do that if all is well.

Well...kind of. When I signed up back in 2009, I got $20 per month off for 24 months. That has a value of $480. My understanding (though I could be wrong) is that they're not doing the introductory discount anymore, and instead they're giving away NFLST for free for a year, which only has a value of $350 or so. I'd guess it's just a different marketing tactic.

(I'll concede, however, that they may very well be losing NFLST subscribers. I just don't think that the special alone is proof of that.)

alkemical
08-15-2011, 01:25 PM
If your original point was that you are seeing declines in revenue and attendance for the NFL I would agree.

But you said "they killed the Golden Goose" which is silly.

Your words. Not mine.
Your drama. Not mine.


Meh, the truth goes through 3 phases...

bronco militia
08-15-2011, 01:26 PM
While true, the same general idea happens in every market; Denver's not unique in that respect. I seriously doubt you'd see substantial movement in the rankings if you extended the radius included.

the Denver teams make up this so called deficiency if you include the entire state. I'm going to go out on a limb and say thats why the Rockies and Avalanche are still here.

Agamemnon
08-15-2011, 01:27 PM
Not Boston. It's just as easy for me to access top notch local hiking and areas in Vermont, NH and Maine as it is for downtown Denver residents to find the same. And we're also right on the ocean and all that comes with it, which Denver certainly doesn't have.

Nowhere did I compare the hiking here to there. Once again you've proven your inability to read and comprehend anything.

So saying it's just as easy for people in Boston to find top notch hiking nearby as people in Denver, isn't comparing them? Your very statement implies that they are basically interchangeable. So if I misunderstood you it's your failure to convey what you actually meant, not my failure to comprehend what you wrote. What you wrote said they were more or less equal, both being "top notch".

DaFace
08-15-2011, 01:28 PM
the Denver teams make up this so called deficiency if you include the entire state. I'm going to go out on a limb and say thats why the Rockies and Avalanche are still here.

My point:

the Kansas City teams make up this so called deficiency if you include the entire state. I'm going to go out on a limb and say thats why the Royals are still there.

bronco militia
08-15-2011, 01:29 PM
My point:

yeah that's fine...that's why I said this story was a joke

bendog
08-15-2011, 01:29 PM
NFL costs for owners are rising faster than any revenue stream. The owners know they raised prices too high. They got a better labor deal in that the hard cap will rise slower than revenues should rise, but the ONLY place the owners can raise prices higher than personal income rises are in the network tv deals. We can all watch our local team and two extra out of market games for free, even without espn, and the ad dollars the league gets prevents them from cutting that.

The trends are all declining ticket and direct tv purchases. Individual markets may differ, but league wide it's a trend in all 4 maj pro sports ... and nascar as well, which is probably bigger than hockey.

Den's historically drawn more per team that it's population would indicate it should. The old den bears out drew the SD padres in the old PCL. The old broncos were legendary for tix sales even with crappy teams.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
08-15-2011, 01:31 PM
Ship the Rockies out.

And do what with Coors Field? riiiiight.

Ship the Avs out. Hockey is not a real sport anyway.

alkemical
08-15-2011, 01:33 PM
And do what with Coors Field? riiiiight.

Ship the Avs out. Hockey is not a real sport anyway.

I fart in your general direction!

bendog
08-15-2011, 01:34 PM
I think Mr. Smurf was trying for a joke ... what with the rox fortunes this year. A freeking broken neck??? WTF! And last. with injuries and ineffectiveness of some guys like Stewart.

But yeah, Zach stepped in it. LOL

DHallblows
08-15-2011, 01:36 PM
Ship the Avs out. Hockey is not a real sport anyway.

Says the guy that just defended baseball

Agamemnon
08-15-2011, 01:36 PM
While true, the same general idea happens in every market; Denver's not unique in that respect. I seriously doubt you'd see substantial movement in the rankings if you extended the radius included.

I'm pretty sure you are completely wrong. I live in Colorado Springs, a town with a population of over half a million, an hour south of Denver. People in this town support the Broncos as avidly as people in Denver. Growing up I lived in southern Colorado, over five hours away from Denver, and the same was true there. People regularly drive from all over the state, and from neighboring states as well, to go to Broncos games. I know quite a few season ticket holders here in Colorado Springs. Being the only NFL team in the mountain states puts them in a very different situation than teams back east or in California that have other teams within a hundred miles of them.

chawknz
08-15-2011, 01:36 PM
Ship out the Rockies, sell the Avs, put more money into the Rapids. :D Tear down Coors field and put a proper soccer park there.

DeuceOfClub
08-15-2011, 01:37 PM
This is 'the most' overextended article I read today.

Agamemnon
08-15-2011, 01:38 PM
Ship out the Rockies, sell the Avs, put more money into the Rapids. :D Tear down Coors field and put a proper soccer park there.

ugh!~

alkemical
08-15-2011, 01:38 PM
This is 'the most' overextended article I read today.

I suggest you stop and get some porn on the way home to right this wrong!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
08-15-2011, 01:40 PM
I just read the article, and I think it's BS. The model assumes that passion for sports is the same across all cities. This is clearly not true, which is why Denver has 5 pro sports teams in the first place.

This is meaningless specious web content drivel.

Denver's enthusiasm for sports is, in my opinion and experience, rivaled only by Yanks/Sawx/Skeeeins fans, and they're only interested in one sport. Denver fans are passionate about two at least, usually three.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
08-15-2011, 01:43 PM
Says the guy that just defended baseball

I didn't defend baseball, you inattentive ****wit. I stated the fact that there's a 10 year old stadium built specifically for baseball, so there's more of a chance that you bed a person of the opposite sex based on your intellect than the Rockies move out of Denver.

DaFace
08-15-2011, 01:43 PM
I'm pretty sure you are completely wrong. I live in Colorado Springs, a town with a population of over half a million, an hour south of Denver. People in this town support the Broncos as avidly as people in Denver. Growing up I lived in southern Colorado, over five hours away from Denver, and the same was true there. People regularly drive from all over the state, and from neighboring states as well, to go to Broncos games. I know quite a few season ticket holders here in Colorado Springs. Being the only NFL team in the mountain states puts them in a very different situation than teams back east or in California that have other teams within a hundred miles of them.

My point is that that happens everywhere to some extent. I grew up in Southern Kansas and had quite a few friends who made the 5-hour drive up as season ticket holders in KC. Green Bay would be the classic example of a fanbase that's spread out. It happens everywhere. Maybe moreso in the midwest than in coastal areas where there are a ton of teams, but there will always be some level of mobility.

Also, keep in mind that the article is talking about sports teams as a whole - not just football. The Avs, Nuggets, Rockies, and Rapids fail to sell out pretty frequently.

Anyway, I wouldn't trust the raw numbers here any more than I'd trust a QB's stats to be a 100% accruate indicator of performance. But that doesn't mean that the stats don't point you in the right direction.

Beantown Bronco
08-15-2011, 01:44 PM
So saying it's just as easy for people in Boston to find top notch hiking nearby as people in Denver, isn't comparing them? Your very statement implies that they are basically interchangeable. So if I misunderstood you it's your failure to convey what you actually meant, not my failure to comprehend what you wrote. What you wrote said they were more or less equal, both being "top notch".

Nope. I'm comparing THE EASE with which someone here can get to the top local hiking and skiing areas. It's AS EASY for me to get to the top local areas as it is for a Denver resident to get to their top local areas. I personally can't compare them, because I've only ever skied in New England.

bendog
08-15-2011, 01:45 PM
If you really wanted to figure it out, you'd have to factor in not just pop density and geographical fan area, but also whether there were college football programs like the SEC or Michigan et al that draw more live fans than their nfl teams. Boston being an example of not really having NCAA "competition" compared to Nashville. And while the Saints pull from throughout the state and even into Miss, you've got 3 major college programs in the states plus Tulane plays its games in the superdome, and on Tulane days, you don't want to be trying to leave the city after 4pm cause it's bumper to bumper.

ZachKC
08-15-2011, 01:45 PM
I like the KC market as it is now. Especially with the great support the city has shown Sporting Kansas City. Nicest soccer stadium in North America.

DHallblows
08-15-2011, 01:45 PM
I didn't defend baseball, you inattentive ****wit. I stated the fact that there's a 10 year old stadium built specifically for baseball, so there's more of a chance that you bed a person of the opposite sex based on your intellect than the Rockies move out of Denver.

Your initial post does not equate to the retarded drivel quoted above.

Also, overact much?

alkemical
08-15-2011, 01:45 PM
Nope. I'm comparing THE EASE with which someone here can get to the top local hiking and skiing areas. It's AS EASY for me to get to the top local areas as it is for a Denver resident to get to their top local areas. I personally can't compare them, because I've only ever skied in New England.

You ever hike the AppTrail?

I live on part of the trail where "shoes go to die". I hike that **** all the time.

broncosteven
08-15-2011, 01:47 PM
I'm pretty sure you are completely wrong. I live in Colorado Springs, a town with a population of over half a million, an hour south of Denver. People in this town support the Broncos as avidly as people in Denver. Growing up I lived in southern Colorado, over five hours away from Denver, and the same was true there. People regularly drive from all over the state, and from neighboring states as well, to go to Broncos games. I know quite a few season ticket holders here in Colorado Springs. Being the only NFL team in the mountain states puts them in a very different situation than teams back east or in California that have other teams within a hundred miles of them.

The guy I get my Bronco tix from lives in the town just north of the springs. I don't see why anyone about and hour away would be any less of a Bronco fan. Here in IL there are duh bear fans all over the northern part of the state, I think the further south you go there are more STL or Indy fans. I am an hour away from downtown Chicago but all my neighbors are bear fans. The only ones who aren't are people like me who never gave up on their original team.

srphoenix
08-15-2011, 01:47 PM
Yeah and Green Bay which 80% of the entire city's population could fit inside the stadium if need be can adequately support the Packers. Dumb article...

Agamemnon
08-15-2011, 01:48 PM
My point is that that happens everywhere to some extent. I grew up in Southern Kansas and had quite a few friends who made the 5-hour drive up as season ticket holders in KC. Green Bay would be the classic example of a fanbase that's spread out. It happens everywhere. Maybe moreso in the midwest than in coastal areas where there are a ton of teams, but there will always be some level of mobility.

Also, keep in mind that the article is talking about sports teams as a whole - not just football. The Avs, Nuggets, Rockies, and Rapids fail to sell out pretty frequently.

Anyway, I wouldn't trust the raw numbers here any more than I'd trust a QB's stats to be a 100% accruate indicator of performance. But that doesn't mean that the stats don't point you in the right direction.

Pretty sure most NBA, NHL, and MLB teams fail to sell out on a regular basis. Playing between 82 and 162 games will do that.

Agamemnon
08-15-2011, 01:50 PM
Yeah and Green Bay which 80% of the entire city's population could fit inside the stadium if need be can adequately support the Packers. Dumb article...

Yep. The only way to actually gauge a city's ability to support teams is to look at ticket sales. I'm pretty sure all the Denver teams do fairly well relatively speaking.

snowspot66
08-15-2011, 01:52 PM
Utah also. We always get the Denver games, in fact they broadcast the preseason game last Thursday.

And Montana, a good chunk of Idaho, some of New Mexico, and the western part of the Dakotas. Denver's "home territory" is massive.

Beantown Bronco
08-15-2011, 01:55 PM
I like the KC market as it is now. Especially with the great support the city has shown Sporting Kansas City. Nicest soccer stadium in North America.

I'd go with Red Bull Arena

crawdad
08-15-2011, 01:57 PM
I think MLB as a sports is bland and uninteresting.

That is because baseball is a thinking man's game!

Beantown Bronco
08-15-2011, 01:58 PM
You ever hike the AppTrail?

I live on part of the trail where "shoes go to die". I hike that **** all the time.

Yup, just local parts though. Mt Washington a few times.

Chris
08-15-2011, 01:59 PM
Not Boston. It's just as easy for me to access top notch local hiking and areas in Vermont, NH and Maine as it is for downtown Denver residents to find the same. And we're also right on the ocean and all that comes with it, which Denver certainly doesn't have.

Vermont has great snowshoeing trails... the best I've seen... not so great ski mountains.

bendog
08-15-2011, 02:00 PM
And Montana, a good chunk of Idaho, some of New Mexico, and the western part of the Dakotas. Denver's "home territory" is massive.

the other factor is that because Den historically was "the big city" for those places, there are lots of extended family. Drive in, stay with Uncle Buck and go out and pick up some tix for the crummy games like SD, or the rox. I'd guess that with the influx of socalers, that's not what it was at one time, though.

alkemical
08-15-2011, 02:00 PM
Yup, just local parts though. Mt Washington a few times.

I'm much further south - how's the trails up that-a-ways? Rough & Rugged?

Agamemnon
08-15-2011, 02:02 PM
Well looking at the numbers from 2009-2010, the Rockies cam in 7th of 16 teams in the NL. The Nuggets came in 16th of 30 teams in the NBA. The Avalanche came came in 26th of 30 teams. The Broncos sold out as always.

So only one team is truly struggling to draw fans (as in being an attendance bottom feeder), and none of these teams have really contended in quite some time.

I will say though that the only team that Denver unconditionally loves is the Broncos. The rest really tend to have much more of a fairweather fanbase.

ZachKC
08-15-2011, 02:10 PM
I'd go with Red Bull Arena

People often say that...

....until they come to Livestrong Sporting Park.

MLS Commish - ďBut (this stadium) certainly has raised the bar. It has set a new height for what soccer stadiums can be in the future. And the fact itís in Kansas City, not another market that may be larger, is a great testament to the commitment of the ownership.Ē

Newcastle United Manager Alan Pardew - The stadium is absolutely top-drawer. Coming from our league, I can attest that this would easily be in the top amongst stadiums in our league.

Blart
08-15-2011, 02:12 PM
They're not taking into account:
Wyoming
Utah
New Mexico
Montana

Denver Broncos represent most of the western flyover states, not just the metro area.

broncosteven
08-15-2011, 02:15 PM
I like the KC market as it is now. Especially with the great support the city has shown Sporting Kansas City. Nicest soccer stadium in North America.

Is it the nicest soccer stadium in NA because they don't allow those pesky women?

LOL

OBF1
08-15-2011, 02:18 PM
I just read the article, and I think it's BS. The model assumes that passion for sports is the same across all cities. This is clearly not true, which is why Denver has 5 pro sports teams in the first place.

This is meaningless specious web content drivel.

Denver's enthusiasm for sports is, in my opinion and experience, rivaled only by Yanks/Sawx/Skeeeins fans, and they're only interested in one sport. Denver fans are passionate about two at least, usually three.

Right, Red Sox fans are not Patriots fans??? Yankee fans are not either Giant or Jets fans??? Your experience is very weak at best if you think this way.

Beantown Bronco
08-15-2011, 02:20 PM
I'm much further south - how's the trails up that-a-ways? Rough & Rugged?

Mass is easy, but NH and Maine have some really tough parts. There's only a few months out of the year you want to even attempt parts of it unless you have a death wish. Good for moose spotting if nothing else though.

OBF1
08-15-2011, 02:23 PM
Well looking at the numbers from 2009-2010, the Rockies cam in 7th of 16 teams in the NL. The Nuggets came in 16th of 30 teams in the NBA. The Avalanche came came in 26th of 30 teams. The Broncos sold out as always.

So only one team is truly struggling to draw fans (as in being an attendance bottom feeder), and none of these teams have really contended in quite some time.

I will say though that the only team that Denver unconditionally loves is the Broncos. The rest really tend to have much more of a fairweather fanbase.

The only reason the nuggets came in 16th place is because they get to play the Lakers, Miami, Boston and San Antonio at home... they raise the bar for all the other games.

ZachKC
08-15-2011, 02:33 PM
Is it the nicest soccer stadium in NA because they don't allow those pesky women?

LOL

I guess I will just have to pretend to know what you are talking about right now. I know you feel a need to respond to me a lot since I embarrassed you in the Chiefs preseason thread. I get it.

chadta
08-15-2011, 02:36 PM
I will say though that the only team that Denver unconditionally loves is the Broncos. The rest really tend to have much more of a fairweather fanbase.

denver trying to be the next city to lose 2 NHL teams for lack of support, i mean there is a reason the rockies left right ?

Ive often wondered what would have happened if the nordiques went to phoenix and the jets moved to denver how different things would have been, i mean yeah sure you support a team thats winning cups, but missing the playoffs for a few years and you cant draw flys.

Its ok tho cuz it pisses french people off to no end that the team they once loved won the year after they left. LOL

Kaylore
08-15-2011, 02:36 PM
I think a lot of people are reading into this wrong. This is based on average income and projected cost of attendance. You will note Pittsburgh is third on the list, yet they draw nationally which obviously isn't factored in. This is a projection based on income and costs. Nothing more. At the end of the day, if the product sucks then no one will come. If it is good then they will.

Agamemnon
08-15-2011, 02:39 PM
denver trying to be the next city to lose 2 NHL teams for lack of support, i mean there is a reason the rockies left right ?

Ive often wondered what would have happened if the nordiques went to phoenix and the jets moved to denver how different things would have been, i mean yeah sure you support a team thats winning cups, but missing the playoffs for a few years and you cant draw flys.

Its ok tho cuz it pisses french people off to no end that the team they once loved won the year after they left. LOL

The problem is that Colorado just doesn't have much of a hockey culture, and the NHL usually struggles to draw fans in places like that. And when they do it's almost always fairweather fans jumping on the bandwagon of a really good team.

boppool
08-15-2011, 02:41 PM
Is it me, or ZachKC gained 100 pounds and became Bob, Jr.?

I used to enjoy some of his objective points of view on few issues. Now, he's just trolling...

RhymesayersDU
08-15-2011, 02:42 PM
The only reason the nuggets came in 16th place is because they get to play the Lakers, Miami, Boston and San Antonio at home... they raise the bar for all the other games.

Wait, what?

Mogulseeker
08-15-2011, 02:42 PM
Nfl attendance has fallen three straight years. But except for the avs, Den teams draw. The study is flawed in that not all cities will have populations that spend discretionary income in the same ways. For example, in KC mullets, camaros and fat women with tatoos on sagging breasts and flabby triceps are in demand. In Oak, it's meth and old star wars regalia.

http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/current_attendance.shtml

http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

http://espn.go.com/nfl/attendance/_/year/2010

The Avs were setting attendance records when they were good.

bronco militia
08-15-2011, 02:43 PM
The problem is that Colorado just doesn't have much of a hockey culture, .

you have no idea what you're talking about...

Kaylore
08-15-2011, 02:44 PM
you have no idea what you're talking about...

Yeah no kidding. DU and Colorado College say "hi."

ZachKC
08-15-2011, 02:45 PM
Is it me, or ZachKC gained 100 pounds and became Bob, Jr.?

I used to enjoy some of his objective points of view on few issues. Now, he's just trolling...

I don't see this as an anti Denver smack type article. This kind of issue is something I find interesting being in a small market with constant talk of an NHL or NBA moving here. Which I am against.

Take it however you will though.

Agamemnon
08-15-2011, 02:48 PM
you have no idea what you're talking about...

I live in Colorado. I've lived in Colorado most of my life. If you think this state has a hockey culture (like the NE or Canada), you are a nut. In those places every high school has a hockey team. In Colorado, only the biggest, wealthiest, and whitest high schools do.

bronco militia
08-15-2011, 02:49 PM
Yeah no kidding. DU and Colorado College say "hi."

for a long time it was bigger down here in the Springs with the olympic training center, the Broadmor, Team USA headquarters, and at the high school level.

Agamemnon
08-15-2011, 02:50 PM
Yeah no kidding. DU and Colorado College say "hi."

You think that reflects a hockey culture? Here I was thinking the fact that most men who grow up in Colorado never play hockey was a bit more relevant.

broncosteven
08-15-2011, 02:50 PM
I live in Colorado. I've lived in Colorado most of my life. If you think this state has a hockey culture (like the NE or Canada), you are a nut. In those places every high school has a hockey team. In Colorado, only the biggest, wealthiest, and whitest high schools do.

It is no different here in Chicagoland.

bronco militia
08-15-2011, 02:52 PM
only the biggest, wealthiest, and whitest high schools do.

that's the way most of hockey is now. The state has supported the sport well for a long time.

CC has been recruiting well since 1938

broncosteven
08-15-2011, 02:53 PM
I guess I will just have to pretend to know what you are talking about right now. I know you feel a need to respond to me a lot since I embarrassed you in the Chiefs preseason thread. I get it.

I admit to being lucid right now.

Agamemnon
08-15-2011, 02:53 PM
It is no different here in Chicagoland.

Well Chicago isn't what I would consider a hot-bed for hockey. To me it's the places where every boy has a chance to play hockey growing up. Canada most of all, and then the Northeast states. I mean where I grew up in Colorado there was no high school hockey for hundreds of miles.

NFLBRONCO
08-15-2011, 02:54 PM
BM the next owner of the Broncos if Socal can't. BTW BM how did you make your Billions

bronco militia
08-15-2011, 02:55 PM
. BTW BM how did you make your Billions

only in my dreams

:Whaaaa!:

Agamemnon
08-15-2011, 02:57 PM
that's the way most of hockey is now. The state has supported the sport well for a long time.

CC has been recruiting well since 1938

Yep that's the way it is most places in the US. Go to Canada, and you'll find something completely different.

My point was that most guys in Colorado have never played hockey (most have played the other three major sports, at least casually), and therefore the draw just isn't as strong. This is why many hockey teams struggle in the US if you ask me, and only good teams or teams in very big cities can consistently draw fans in most cities outside the hockey belt.

mkporter
08-15-2011, 02:57 PM
Here's a few things missing from the analysis in the article:

1) The "deficit" isn't normalized by number of sports teams when the rankings are applied. Denver is short about $17.5B per sport, whereas Milwaukee is short by nearly $26B per sport. Green Bay is short by $25B. Absent any other factors, Milwaukee and Green Bay's sports teams have a much smaller revenue base to work with.

2) The metro area they used to calculate these numbers for Denver is (Denver, Aurora, Broomfield). Not included is: Colorado Springs, Boulder, Fort Collins/Loveland, and Greeley. These five areas (which obviously are major supporters of the Denver sports teams) account for an additional $58.6B of income base.

3) What you can conclude from this article, is that if your market is "over extended" and your teams are not financially struggling, then you must have passionate fans. Which does make sense with Denver at the top of the list. :strong:

broncosteven
08-15-2011, 02:59 PM
Well Chicago isn't what I would consider a hot-bed for hockey. To me it's the places where every boy has a chance to play hockey growing up. Canada most of all, and then the Northeast states. I mean where I grew up in Colorado there was no high school hockey for hundreds of miles.

I lived in Michigan in the late 70's and that was about as big a hockey state as I lived in but even then it was sparse and hard to find a league though we all played pickup hockey. Come to think of it I see kids around here doing the same thing...

DHallblows
08-15-2011, 02:59 PM
I live in Colorado. I've lived in Colorado most of my life. If you think this state has a hockey culture (like the NE or Canada), you are a nut. In those places every high school has a hockey team. In Colorado, only the biggest, wealthiest, and whitest high schools do.

??? Compared to Canada where those all-black urban schools have high school hockey teams ::)

mkporter
08-15-2011, 03:00 PM
I live in Colorado. I've lived in Colorado most of my life. If you think this state has a hockey culture (like the NE or Canada), you are a nut. In those places every high school has a hockey team. In Colorado, only the biggest, wealthiest, and whitest high schools do.

This. Hockey was as foreign as cricket when I was younger, and I went to a big, wealthy, white high school (Boulder).

bronco militia
08-15-2011, 03:01 PM
Yep that's the way it is most places in the US. Go to Canada, and you'll find something completely different.

My point was that most guys in Colorado have never played hockey (most have played the other three major sports, at least casually), and therefore the draw just isn't as strong. This is why many hockey teams struggle in the US if you ask me, and only good teams or teams in very big cities can consistently draw fans in most cities outside the hockey belt.

oh there's no doubt that it's a niche sport and probably will be forever in every market outside of Canada. I just think that you underestimate the interest of the sport in colorado.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
08-15-2011, 03:04 PM
??? Compared to Canada where those all-black urban schools have high school hockey teams ::)

Hey, look at that. You missed the point again.

Agamemnon
08-15-2011, 03:06 PM
I lived in Michigan in the late 70's and that was about as big a hockey state as I lived in but even then it was sparse and hard to find a league though we all played pickup hockey. Come to think of it I see kids around here doing the same thing...

I've never known anyone who played pickup hockey growing up in Colorado. Whenever I hear about anyone playing hockey in this state it's almost always rich (or at least upper middle class) kids at big schools. While that's somewhat true pretty much everywhere as hockey is an expensive sport, it's pretty much the rule here in Colorado. In Canada and other hockey-centric places there are a lot of lower-income kids and kids at smaller schools playing hockey. That just isn't true in Colorado.

baja
08-15-2011, 03:06 PM
So we should call the stadium;

B of A Insufficient Funds Division @ Mile High

ZachKC
08-15-2011, 03:09 PM
Oh hey. It is my stalker. Wishing harm on me...again.

How unsurprising.

Mountain Bronco
08-15-2011, 03:09 PM
Really what an awful article. You can't base the Denver sports teams area on just the immediate denver metro area. Basically everyone in Wyoming, a large portion of NM all of Colorado, a large potion of Montana, Nebraska etc... support Denver sports teams. You would have to factor in percentages of incomes the more remote areas are, but I live 7 1/2 hours from Denver and make it to several pro sporting events of each team virtually every year, buy merchandise etc....so my income should count in the study.

I do think that attendance is down in every Denver sport though.

Mountain Bronco
08-15-2011, 03:11 PM
I've never known anyone who played pickup hockey growing up in Colorado. Whenever I hear about anyone playing hockey in this state it's almost always rich (or at least upper middle class) kids at big schools. While that's somewhat true pretty much everywhere as hockey is an expensive sport, it's pretty much the rule here in Colorado. In Canada and other hockey-centric places there are a lot of lower-income kids and kids at smaller schools playing hockey. That just isn't true in Colorado.

Hockey is really big in a lot of the Mountain Towns like Crested Butte, Aspen Telluride etc... but a lot of money in those areas as well, but the interest is certainly in Colorado. Lots of Hockey in Colorado actually.

Agamemnon
08-15-2011, 03:12 PM
??? Compared to Canada where those all-black urban schools have high school hockey teams ::)

Seriously, how many all-black urban schools are there in Canada? Blacks account for a whopping 2.5% of the population in Canada (as of 2006).

Agamemnon
08-15-2011, 03:14 PM
Hockey is really big in a lot of the Mountain Towns like Crested Butte, Aspen Telluride etc... but a lot of money in those areas as well, but the interest is certainly in Colorado. Lots of Hockey in Colorado actually.

Lots of hockey amongst rich white people, not in general. You made my point actually. I mean look at the towns you listed.

bronco militia
08-15-2011, 03:16 PM
Lots of hockey amongst rich white people, not in general. You made my point actually. I mean look at the towns you listed.

yeah, my kids are playing inline hockey for now....

bendog
08-15-2011, 03:18 PM
I dunno where you guys come from, but my colo hs had a hockey team, though it's now a club sport. Both my nephews play in line, and my brothers old high school appears to have won the last in line championship. Regis high school is the highest ranked ice hockey team, which is not really surprising since its alumni have DU links.

It is probably true that ice hockey on the high school and college level draw from higher income alumni types, and inline, which imo is really better suited to kids, is largely suburban/more white schools.

I'm not even gonna bother putting up the links. sheesh.

Agamemnon
08-15-2011, 03:21 PM
oh there's no doubt that it's a niche sport and probably will be forever in every market outside of Canada. I just think that you underestimate the interest of the sport in colorado.

The Avalanche have the worst attendance of any team in Denver. And the previous NHL team in Denver left town after six years. I don't think I'm underestimating it at all.

DHallblows
08-15-2011, 03:26 PM
Seriously, how many all-black urban schools are there in Canada? Blacks account for a whopping 2.5% of the population in Canada (as of 2006).

Exactly. So are you saying CO isn't a hockey culture right now because our all-black high schools are the ones without hockey? Ignoring those, there is a lot of high school hockey in CO.

bendog
08-15-2011, 03:27 PM
The Avalanche have the worst attendance of any team in Denver. And the previous NHL team in Denver left town after six years. I don't think I'm underestimating it at all.

you overstate everything. even after BM half way agrees with you, despite you having been proven wrong about the youth hockey scene in Colo. It's got more high income support than anything other than soccer, and the avs were the hottest ticket till the salary cap and Stan the Man killed the team. And they're still drawing in the middle of the pack in the NHL.

DHallblows
08-15-2011, 03:27 PM
Hey, look at that. You missed the point again.

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kpquwlqF0U1qz5njko1_400.jpg


Get off my jock Moose

Agamemnon
08-15-2011, 03:29 PM
Exactly. So are you saying CO isn't a hockey culture right now because our all-black high schools are the ones without hockey? Ignoring those, there is a lot of high school hockey in CO.

You're kidding yourself if you think it's only all-black schools that don't have hockey in Colorado. Virtually none of the rural schools do (my background). And many of the bigger schools either (sending those who are interested in playing hockey to another school in the district usually).

RhymesayersDU
08-15-2011, 03:47 PM
Oh hey. It is my stalker. Wishing harm on me...again.

How unsurprising.

KEEP YOUR HEAD ON A SWIVEL, ZACH!

razorwire77
08-15-2011, 04:18 PM
what a joke. they are only counting Denver-Aurora-Broomfield....

here is what they left out:

http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/datacenter/metropolitan-total-personal-income.html?appSession=57778272335197

Yeah, there is some flawed thinking involved in the article. In addition to what you pointed out, the vast majority of the state of New Mexico are fans of either the Broncos or Cowboys. Numerous Bronco fans from Albuquerque population 900,000 and growing make multiple trips to watch the Broncos play and contribute to the revenue of the team. The same is true of many the states that do not have professional teams that are in the Broncos' footprint.

Mountain Bronco
08-15-2011, 04:21 PM
Lots of hockey amongst rich white people, not in general. You made my point actually. I mean look at the towns you listed.

I agree with one of your points. Hockey is a sport that attracts the rich white kids. I don't agree that Colorado is not a passionate hockey state on every level from pee-wee through high school there are teams all over the state and I know a bunch of kids that have gone on to play in the Canadian junior leagues and even pro-minor leagues who grew up in the Colorado hockey system. Colorado is a fairly white state (more and more Hispanic though) so it goes hand in hand.

DHallblows
08-15-2011, 04:48 PM
You're kidding yourself if you think it's only all-black schools that don't have hockey in Colorado. Virtually none of the rural schools do (my background). And many of the bigger schools either (sending those who are interested in playing hockey to another school in the district usually).

Well yeah, obviously farm schools are more interested in football and wrastlin', but any high school in the greater metro area has a hockey program right now.

We even have a minor league team in this state that does great attendance wise.

ZachKC
09-27-2011, 04:11 PM
lol. You're bad at the internet.

You are much better off making threats at my family members that you won't follow through on because you are a coward via PMs.

ZachKC
09-27-2011, 04:17 PM
You're bad at life.

You're the one obsessed with me. Poor guy. Letting mean Zach under your skin like that for years and years.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.thatsfit.ca/media/2009/09/manipulation-248.jpg

<^>(-_-)<^>
09-27-2011, 04:18 PM
You're the one obsessed with me. Poor guy. Letting mean Zach under your skin like that for years and years.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.thatsfit.ca/media/2009/09/manipulation-248.jpg

I think it's the other way around.

I got you to post when you were lurking, didn't I?

ZachKC
09-27-2011, 04:21 PM
I think it's the other way around.

I got you to post when you were lurking, didn't I?

Actually no. I wasn't on OM and I got an e-mail that told me I had a private message. That private message was you threatening my father by name with violence.

No biggie. You are a coward and keyboard tough guy but lets just call this whole thing what it is. A person that has been obsessed to the point of scouring the internet for pictures and info of me and making multiple user names just to be a coward.

<^>(-_-)<^>
09-27-2011, 04:22 PM
Actually no. I wasn't on OM and I got an e-mail that told me I had a private message. That private message was you threatening my father by name with violence.

No, I didn't.

ZachKC
09-27-2011, 04:23 PM
http://i.imgur.com/CudLV.png

rbackfactory80
09-27-2011, 04:24 PM
Bowlen=Broke

mkporter
09-27-2011, 05:46 PM
Did you guys really bump this thread just to b!tch at each other?

Nice work.

Edit: Read a little closer. Looks like somebody got booted again. He also seems to have taken a shining to me. Every couple months, "Juan" will show up with something vulgar about my wife and then promptly get booted again.

Kaylore
09-27-2011, 06:18 PM
I find that interesting that someone threatened a member of this board and got booted and the same thing happened to me and literally not a word from any of the mods.

TheReverend
09-27-2011, 07:08 PM
I find that interesting that someone threatened a member of this board and got booted and the same thing happened to me and literally not a word from any of the mods.

He gets booted every week though.

Meanwhile, saving Zach's horrid thread:



http://i.imgur.com/adqhB.jpg

Bronx33
09-27-2011, 07:20 PM
I agree with one of your points. Hockey is a sport that attracts the rich white kids. I don't agree that Colorado is not a passionate hockey state on every level from pee-wee through high school there are teams all over the state and I know a bunch of kids that have gone on to play in the Canadian junior leagues and even pro-minor leagues who grew up in the Colorado hockey system. Colorado is a fairly white state (more and more Hispanic though) so it goes hand in hand.


Sorry but this is one of the dumbest things i have ever read.

TheReverend
09-27-2011, 07:20 PM
Sorry but this is one of the dumbest things i have ever read.

Agree. I can't even skate.

Bronx33
09-27-2011, 07:21 PM
So <^>(-_-)<^> why are you a bitch?

Perry1977
09-27-2011, 08:09 PM
He gets booted every week though.

Meanwhile, saving Zach's horrid thread:



http://i.imgur.com/adqhB.jpg

Omg this girl would never sleep with me. :notworthy :notworthy

Perry1977
09-27-2011, 08:11 PM
And FWIW, my Great-Uncle drove for many years from Spearfish, South Dakota to Denver for home games, until he got too old.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
09-27-2011, 08:26 PM
Interesting to think about. Kansas City 5th on the list.

http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/on-numbers/scott-thomas/2011/08/denver-is-most-overextended-market.html?ana=twt

Denver is under more financial stress than any other professional-sports market in North America, according to a new On Numbers study.

Denver heads a list of 20 overextended markets, all of which have insufficient income bases to support their existing major-league teams. Complete rankings can be found in the database below.

On Numbers analyzed 85 metropolitan areas in the United States and Canada to determine if they have the financial ability to support professional teams in baseball, football, basketball, hockey and soccer. Click here for the complete methodology.

The Denver area would need total personal income (TPI) of $209.3 billion to provide an adequate base for its five existing teams, according to the study. (TPI is the sum of all money earned by all residents in a given year.) But Denverís actual TPI is $121.9 billion, yielding an income deficit of $87.4 billion.

This shortfall doesnít necessarily mean that any of Denverís teams will move or fold. But itís a reliable sign that those teams can expect continued volatility in attendance and revenues.

Nineteen other markets are overextended, based on estimates by On Numbers. Among them are five areas with TPI deficits larger than $50 billion: Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Tampa-St. Petersburg, Kansas City and Milwaukee.
The other 65 metros included in the study either have sufficient income to support their existing franchises or donít have any major-league teams at all.

Just to note. Denver hosted the largest UFC fight this year with 16,000+ people at the event.

Houshyamama
09-27-2011, 08:33 PM
Omg this girl would never sleep with me. :notworthy :notworthy

That's the spirit!

BroncoMan4ever
09-27-2011, 09:41 PM
Ship the Rockies out.

package them with the Nuggets.

maven
09-27-2011, 09:47 PM
Ship out the Rockies, sell the Avs, put more money into the Rapids. :D Tear down Coors field and put a proper soccer park there.

Ha!

Great idea!

maven
09-27-2011, 09:49 PM
http://i.imgur.com/adqhB.jpg

I've had better.

ZachKC
09-27-2011, 09:54 PM
Just to note. Denver hosted the largest UFC fight this year with 16,000+ people at the event.

Not sure that really matters at all. One off events compared to what it takes to fill seats for teams with long seasons.

Apples and oranges.

Our MLS team averages more than that.

BroncoMan4ever
09-27-2011, 09:59 PM
He gets booted every week though.

Meanwhile, saving Zach's horrid thread:



http://i.imgur.com/adqhB.jpg

that is what has been missing from this site. i still find irony in the fact that once boob mojo was banned the team went on an epic spiral down the toilet.

BroncoMan4ever
09-27-2011, 09:59 PM
I've had better.

were you dreaming at the time?

cutthemdown
09-27-2011, 10:01 PM
What would you do with coors field without the rockies though?

ZachKC
09-27-2011, 10:08 PM
What would you do with coors field without the rockies though?

http://www.telco2.net/blog/images/demo_derby_01_cars.jpg

maven
09-27-2011, 10:11 PM
were you dreaming at the time?

no? Call me crazy, but there's a lot of hot chicks in this world.

Perry1977
09-27-2011, 10:13 PM
http://www.telco2.net/blog/images/demo_derby_01_cars.jpg

HELL YES!! lol

DHallblows
09-27-2011, 10:45 PM
Not sure that really matters at all. One off events compared to what it takes to fill seats for teams with long seasons.

Apples and oranges.

Our MLS team averages more than that.

Does that have anything to do with that fact that your soccer stadium holds more than 16,000? ::)

ZachKC
09-27-2011, 11:14 PM
Does that have anything to do with that fact that your soccer stadium holds more than 16,000? ::)

Probably, but it remains that talking about a 1 time event in a discussion of a cities ability to support major league teams from year to year is silly.

Taco John
09-27-2011, 11:17 PM
I find that interesting that someone threatened a member of this board and got booted and the same thing happened to me and literally not a word from any of the mods.

I missed that one...

SoCalBronco
09-27-2011, 11:24 PM
I didn't see it either, Khan. I'm out the vast majority of the day until the evenings on weekdays. Nonetheless, we should always be on the lookout for this sort of thing.

Rolandftw
09-27-2011, 11:30 PM
Denver is obviously a Broncos town first. The other sports draw well, but it is dependent on the team being a good to great team which is bound to not always happen.

It pains me to say this, as they are my favorite professional team, but, of the four major sports, the Nuggets probably draw the worst if you take into account they've always been a middle of the pack team attendance wise even following the year after they made it to the WCF's. Part of this is they were so BAD in the 90's that they lost a lot of fan interest in the city.

Part of it is also Colorado isn't known as a hotbed for talent at the high school or college level either. I definitely think they have a sleeping fanbase, that is just looking for a reason to be excited though.

The Avs are drawing bad now, and the Rockies were struggling but if either team is a good/great team regularly their attendance will reflect that.

BMF Bronco
09-28-2011, 07:29 AM
I've never heard that any of the Denver teams are really struggling on the attendance front. Though I really only follow the Broncos and they have sold out for decades.

I wonder if they take the entire state into account. It's not like back east where big cities are right next to each other. Denver has all of Colorado and Wyoming (which adds a couple million people).

And some of Montana. I know quite a few families who have season tickets up here and travel down quite often to attend the games.

bronco militia
09-28-2011, 08:07 AM
what a joke. they are only counting Denver-Aurora-Broomfield....

here is what they left out:

http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/datacenter/metropolitan-total-personal-income.html?appSession=57778272335197

:wave:

Meck77
09-28-2011, 08:47 AM
Until fans stay at home owners/players will continue to make millions and tens of millions. With the economy you would think their salaries would have adjusted like everyone else's but that doesn't seem to be the case. Think about it though.

The million dollar mansions are now 500k or less.
The yachts they once purchased are more than 50% off.
Shares of BofA for their IRA's are now 6 bucks...lol

Yet they are still making MILLIONS per year!

Hell the KC chief players can buy rentals in the KC area for 10k (no joke). For a million they could buy 50 of them!

Tombstone RJ
09-28-2011, 09:50 AM
Not Boston. It's just as easy for me to access top notch local hiking and areas in Vermont, NH and Maine as it is for downtown Denver residents to find the same. And we're also right on the ocean and all that comes with it, which Denver certainly doesn't have.

LOL

yah, ok. Top notch hiking in Vermont compared to the Rocky Mountains. Skiing anywhere on the East Coast is a joke compared to the Rockies. I'm sure the Ocean is just great to go to in November...

Tombstone RJ
09-28-2011, 09:58 AM
The Avalanche have the worst attendance of any team in Denver. And the previous NHL team in Denver left town after six years. I don't think I'm underestimating it at all.

The Avs and the Nuggets have Kroenke as owner and he owns the Pepsi Center. The Avs ain't going anywhere.

bendog
09-28-2011, 10:45 AM
The Avs and the Nuggets have Kroenke as owner and he owns the Pepsi Center. The Avs ain't going anywhere.

I just don't understand why someone would bet with you, and their winnings would be you putting up their avatar of a gay guy with an eypatch and swords sticking out of each side of his neck

broncocalijohn
09-28-2011, 11:07 AM
my guess is that becuase their is so much other things to do in Denver (ski / hike / etc) that profession sports suffer. Along with the good weather like San Diego. The midwest, south, and east coast have more extreme weather making people focus on their sports franchises.

Oklahoma City just dominated attendence numbers because their is nothing to do there. But I just dont see OKC as a sports town.

I hope many understand what happens now in SoCal. Denver does have 5 sports compared to KC which has 3. When you spread out your entertainment dollars with outdoor sports with hockey, football, baseball, basketball and soccer then add the ****ty economy, you will be stretched farther than normal. Colorado is very unique that it has a very far reaching fan base but two things hinder it. One is not a huge people base compared to New York, SF/Oak, LA/SD/OC and Chicago areas. 2nd is that the'r teams might have a 14 state base for TV or radio but those residents will not make a 9 hour road trip to go to a game.
Denver has proven to be a sports town and the reason there are 5 out of 5 sports teams there. Not too many cities can claim that. In fact, LA has only 4 out of the 5.

Durango
09-28-2011, 11:28 AM
I don't find it hard to believe the total revenues are stretched thin in Colorado, and specifically Denver. I travel from southern Colorado to watch home games, but this year I will only make two trips.

When I'm in Denver during the winter and early spring, I almost always try to catch an Avalanche game. It's a fantastic live sport to watch. Unfortunately, it doesn't translate to T-V very well.

I share my season tickets now because they just became too expensive, and it's very disappointing to make only two games this year, but I do intend on attending at least a half dozen or more Avalanche games. The 5 and 10 game package prices are very affordable and there always seems to be a game going on when I'm in town.

Jason in LA
09-28-2011, 12:06 PM
Interesting, from a financial stand point LA is the obvious choice for a NFL team.

http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/on-numbers/scott-thomas/2011/08/los-angeles-is-the-clear-choice.html

(Insert old and lame arguments about LA not being a good sports city, not caring about football, and losing two teams.)

bronco militia
09-28-2011, 12:07 PM
(Insert old and lame arguments about LA not being a good sports city, not caring about football, and losing two teams.)

what other argument do we need? Ha!

Jason in LA
09-28-2011, 12:09 PM
that is what has been missing from this site. i still find irony in the fact that once boob mojo was banned the team went on an epic spiral down the toilet.

That's an understatement. From that point nothing but bad things have happened to the Broncos.

The Broncos had a three game lead, on their way to the playoffs. The thread comes down and the Broncos lose their next three games while the Chargers won all three of theirs (one because a Chief dropped an onside kick, giving the ball back to the Chargers). Shanny is fired, McD is hired and runs the franchise into the ground. Now we're stuck.

Jason in LA
09-28-2011, 12:30 PM
what other argument do we need? Ha!

All of those arguments are seriously flawed, but people continue to use them.

alkemical
09-28-2011, 12:39 PM
LOL

yah, ok. Top notch hiking in Vermont compared to the Rocky Mountains. Skiing anywhere on the East Coast is a joke compared to the Rockies. I'm sure the Ocean is just great to go to in November...

there's a lot of good hiking out on the east coast man, it's just different. I've done a chunk of the App Trail and have seen some beautiful things. Being from CO - I can say the mountains and such are beautiful - but opening up on the trail and seeing the susquehanna river open up 3 miles wide is beautiful.

Being in North East PA & Western MA during fall is amazing.


Just different - not that one is better than the other - they just have their own things to offer.

I love the PAC-NW. I think it's one of the prettiest places i've ever been too.

bendog
09-28-2011, 12:43 PM
I don't know that they're really flawed. For pro football to be sucessful you need about 50K people who are willing to sink the significant portion of their disposable income into 8 home games (plus preseasons). For that, they can commence partying at 7 a.m., which depeding upon the city can include conspicuous and loud or inconspicuous and not so load consumption of alcohol/tea and the tailgate food of choice. Then the game, and the judicious consumptio of over priced beer and perhaps a shot or two. Perhaps a beer in the parking lot. Then home, more alcohol/tea, dinner, and more alcohol/tea and the Sunday night game.

It varies from city to city. Colo it works because fishing and hiking and summer sports can be done cheap, and that's the lifestyle. New Orleans it works because Saints games is when the locals get to be tourists. People were living in Katrina trailers and still going to games. It's like a relief valve.

I dunno if LA folks will buy into that. There's also the transportation issue. I stopped going to Dodger games there cause of the travel time. But when I went, it was get there for the third and leave in the seventh. Basketball doesn't take all damn day either.

Tombstone RJ
09-28-2011, 03:41 PM
there's a lot of good hiking out on the east coast man, it's just different. I've done a chunk of the App Trail and have seen some beautiful things. Being from CO - I can say the mountains and such are beautiful - but opening up on the trail and seeing the susquehanna river open up 3 miles wide is beautiful.

Being in North East PA & Western MA during fall is amazing.


Just different - not that one is better than the other - they just have their own things to offer.

I love the PAC-NW. I think it's one of the prettiest places i've ever been too.

I understand what you are saying and I agree the NE has some beautiful country. That being said, no one moves there for the mountains. However, many, many people move to CO for the outdoors.

Dogsweat
09-28-2011, 04:10 PM
Thoughts on Dumpver.

Worst sports fans in of America. Most transient city in the country.

The few natives left are usually arrogant maxi pads who think they are superior.

Teams from Texas and California usually take over Denver sports venues.

Denver is lot like Miami and Phoenix- when it comes to sports. Once the Mules hit the toliet for a decade you will see the phony fans not showing up.

It's only a matter of time before the Mules go through lean years. Then the non sellouts will start to show.

Denver has no originality and usually copies other cities.

Tombstone RJ
09-28-2011, 05:50 PM
Thoughts on Dumpver.

Worst sports fans in of America. Most transient city in the country.

The few natives left are usually arrogant maxi pads who think they are superior.

Teams from Texas and California usually take over Denver sports venues.

Denver is lot like Miami and Phoenix- when it comes to sports. Once the Mules hit the toliet for a decade you will see the phony fans not showing up.

It's only a matter of time before the Mules go through lean years. Then the non sellouts will start to show.

Denver has no originality and usually copies other cities.

Denver has been taken over from CA refugees and these dumbass refugees want to californicate Colorado. It's sad.

Bronx33
09-28-2011, 06:23 PM
Denver has been taken over from CA refugees and these dumbass refugees want to californicate Colorado. It's sad.

I agree...

alkemical
09-29-2011, 06:34 AM
I understand what you are saying and I agree the NE has some beautiful country. That being said, no one moves there for the mountains. However, many, many people move to CO for the outdoors.

I dunno, I met a lot of people that have cabins and such here for hunting and fishing. I'm not arguing with you, I'm just telling you what I know/see from doing a bit of traveling.

If I could tell you one place to go in PA this is where I'd send you:

http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/stateparks/findapark/rickettsglen/index.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricketts_Glen_State_Park

The park offers hiking, ten cabins, camping (one of the two camping areas is on a peninsula in the lake), horseback riding, and hunting. Lake Jean is used for swimming, fishing, canoeing and kayaking. In winter there is cross-country skiing, ice fishing on the lake, and ice climbing on the frozen falls. The Glens Natural Area has eight named waterfalls in Glen Leigh and ten in Ganoga Glen, these come together at Waters Meet; downstream in Ricketts Glen there are four to six named waterfalls. The park has four rock formations from the Devonian and Carboniferous periods, and is home to a wide variety of plants and animals. It was named an Important Bird Area by the Pennsylvania Audubon Society and is an Important Mammal Area too.

The rocks exposed in the park were formed in the Devonian and Carboniferous periods between 370 and 340 million years ago, when the land was part of the coastline of a shallow sea that covered a great portion of what is now North America. The high mountains to the east of the sea gradually eroded, causing a build-up of sediment made up primarily of clay, sand and gravel. Tremendous pressure caused the formation of the sedimentary rocks that are found in the park and in the Kitchen Creek drainage basin: sandstone, shale, siltstone, and conglomerates.[56]


http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTk0_GRrVg10dQ8OgHJPK3BeBwrvU5Nb pJH_lpDgmxDvwWAjP6uAQ


http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTd4zRl6OGsu8481_hoBLjPv-ZNB1bZ4J602JdelgNeJtL62f3u

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRvsvJokDNMAcRLYISX2bZc4g9vnUvCz yW0YAhQC92A8AYFKytBmQ

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ6p4lewGImH1jHlOGfPnbPDSNfc6hKn XF40hzyT3jOhd0X9C4C

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ8EcOzc0ZFm5LPQNqzJgP92U9iaWqvT eri2j-qIB1LnXExD4uA


http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRnFUjeLsZshrvmyQnCZU-kZuUrPT4Khxk3-M80ukcA5hb6zd8m


http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSgyAxXHg27VEv5WDEXHHymlD4I0RS3L 1ZpOalzCg2qfBu74uEHHg


Again, not arguing or playing any games. I'm from CO - But i've hiked a ton of the east coast, if I were to tell you to go anywhere in PA - Go to Rickett's.