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View Full Version : Orton is Playing for the Money, Not the Fans


epicSocialism4tw
08-14-2011, 01:35 PM
"Can you handle the truth? Orton is playing for the money, not love of the Broncos or fans. No matter how well Orton performs this season, do you see Denver giving him a new contract for three years and $30 million? I don't think so. So let's be brutally honest: Orton is a mercenary looking for his next NFL job"

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_18678005

brncs_fan
08-14-2011, 01:37 PM
Can we file this one under; No ****?

SoCalBronco
08-14-2011, 01:37 PM
I don't like Orton, but that's not because he's playing for money rather than fans. That's a rational perspective for him to have. This is simply a business relationship, he puts in his effort in exchange for cash, nothing more and nothing less. While I do have problems with him, its certainly not for his perspective on this issue.

bendog
08-14-2011, 01:38 PM
I logged on because I wondered who would link that. LOL

epicSocialism4tw
08-14-2011, 01:40 PM
I don't like Orton, but that's not because he's playing for money rather than fans. That's a rational perspective for him to have. This is simply a business relationship, he puts in his effort in exchange for cash, nothing more and nothing less. While I do have problems with him, its certainly not for his perspective on this issue.

I agree. Its the perspective that anyone should have.

The real issue is over how management has flubbed the situation into what it is today.

SoCalBronco
08-14-2011, 01:49 PM
I agree. Its the perspective that anyone should have.

The real issue is over how management has flubbed the situation into what it is today.

Agreed. Management has played it rather poorly. The team has tried to convey the perspective (through their lapdogs in the press...cough, Klis, cough) that the problem was solely between Orton and the Dolphins regarding contracts. Well, if that is the case, they should have "motivated" Kyle to expedite resolution of his contractual issues with the Dolphins. In other words, make his camp miserable. No reps, no interviews, no nothing, except for maybe running laps and engaging in a great deal of other spirited and intense conditioning exercises....alot of them. After all, we wouldn't want him to be in camp for Miami being poorly conditioned. That wouldn't be fair to our trading partner. Instead, we've been bending over backwards to him, giving him precious reps that would have been more valuable for Tebow's development since Orton is an experienced vet and Tebow was robbed of OTA's by the lockout. What we should have done was make it ****ing miserable for him to the furthest extent permitted by the CBA. You get that contract worked out...or else.

brncs_fan
08-14-2011, 01:51 PM
The real issue is over how management has flubbed the situation into what it is today.

The situation where we have an NFL caliber QB that can go out and play for us until we have one of our other QBs step up and show that they are also NFL starting caliber QBs?

Just awful.

bendog
08-14-2011, 01:52 PM
The situation where we have an NFL caliber QB that can go out and play for us until we have one of our other QBs step up and show that they are also NFL starting caliber QBs?

Just awful.

And if Tebow still can't make the plays under center by Dec, they draft a qb. There are probably 3 who'll go in the first.

SoCalBronco
08-14-2011, 01:56 PM
The situation where we have an NFL caliber QB that can go out and play for us until we have one of our other QBs step up and show that they are also NFL starting caliber QBs?

Just awful.

Quinn's been practicing quite well (seems like he also played pretty well too against DAL, albeit vs. 3s), so there is still insurance there if Tebow is not sufficiently prepared by opening day.

The guy is on a one year deal. This is our only oppurtunity to get something for him. Plus, if Elway really does not think Tebow can cut it and that he would much prefer Luck, he should welcome the oppurtunity to test out his hypothesis. If that sentiment is simply contrived, then he should still get rid of Orton since its better to get something for him now when we're still not contending yet and the fans have made it clear that giving him a long term deal is a non-starter.

bendog
08-14-2011, 01:58 PM
Quinn's been practicing quite well (seems like he also played pretty well too against DAL, albeit vs. 3s), so there is still insurance there if Tebow is not sufficiently prepared by opening day.

The guy is on a one year deal. This is our only oppurtunity to get something for him. Plus, if Elway really does not think Tebow can cut it and that he would much prefer Luck, he should welcome the oppurtunity to test out his hypothesis. If that sentiment is simply contrived, then he should still get rid of Orton since its better to get something for him now when we're still not contending yet and the fans have made it clear that giving him a long term deal is a non-starter.

I think the only way they lose enough to suck for luck was to ship Orton out for whatever anyone would give us, and then throw Tebow to the lions. But that would probably destroy Tebow mentally and possibly physically at this pt in his career.

epicSocialism4tw
08-14-2011, 01:59 PM
Agreed. Management has played it rather poorly. The team has tried to convey the perspective (through their lapdogs in the press...cough, Klis, cough) that the problem was solely between Orton and the Dolphins regarding contracts. Well, if that is the case, they should have "motivated" Kyle to expedite resolution of his contractual issues with the Dolphins. In other words, make his camp miserable. No reps, no interviews, no nothing, except for maybe running laps and engaging in a great deal of other spirited and intense conditioning exercises....alot of them. After all, we wouldn't want him to be in camp for Miami being poorly conditioned. That wouldn't be fair to our trading partner. Instead, we've been bending over backwards to him, giving him precious reps that would have been more valuable for Tebow's development since Orton is an experienced vet and Tebow was robbed of OTA's by the lockout. What we should have done was make it ****ing miserable for him to the furthest extent permitted by the CBA. You get that contract worked out...or else.

Yeah, they didn't know how deep the water was when they stepped in it.

Now they're wasting a year of development for their QB of the future.

Its unfortunate that Elway is involved in this, knowing how it was as a young player when he was getting yanked around by similar coaching and management.

Aaron Rogers sat because he was playing behind a franchise legend. Tebow's getting sat behind a player who he is just as productive as who will be with another team next season. Odd.

bombay
08-14-2011, 02:04 PM
Quinn has looked very good. I'd like to see him against another team's first string D in the next game or two. The Broncos might have a legitimate starter.

brncs_fan
08-14-2011, 02:08 PM
Quinn's been practicing quite well (seems like he also played pretty well too against DAL, albeit vs. 3s), so there is still insurance there if Tebow is not sufficiently prepared by opening day.

The guy is on a one year deal. This is our only oppurtunity to get something for him. Plus, if Elway really does not think Tebow can cut it and that he would much prefer Luck, he should welcome the oppurtunity to test out his hypothesis. If that sentiment is simply contrived, then he should still get rid of Orton since its better to get something for him now when we're still not contending yet and the fans have made it clear that giving him a long term deal is a non-starter.

I get all of that. Furthermore I agree with it (except I don't think we have a chance in hell at Luck). I was all for trading Orton and trying to get a pick, but a combination of the lockout and other factors have prevented him from being traded. I don't think it was a "flubbing" as much as trading for him didn't make any sense to a lot of teams given that he is probably going to be replaced by Tebow anyway.

A team like Miami can suck this year, get a high draft pick, and still get Orton. Not too shabby for them.

Conklin
08-14-2011, 02:13 PM
Yeah, they didn't know how deep the water was when they stepped in it.

Now they're wasting a year of development for their QB of the future.

Its unfortunate that Elway is involved in this, knowing how it was as a young player when he was getting yanked around by similar coaching and management.

Aaron Rogers sat because he was playing behind a franchise legend. Tebow's getting sat behind a player who he is just as productive as who will be with another team next season. Odd.
a year of practice and situational game play is not a waste...orton gives us our best chance to win, get over it

bendog
08-14-2011, 02:15 PM
Elway only started when Deberg got hurt, and was so unimpressive that Kubes actually took a start. He did play better as time went on. But he didn't play in a spread offense that left the qb in shotgun all the time.

epicSocialism4tw
08-14-2011, 02:17 PM
a year of practice and situational game play is not a waste...orton gives us our best chance to win, get over it

Orton gives us the best chance to win? Ha!

That's funny! I dig your sarcasm.

cabronco
08-14-2011, 02:21 PM
Quinn has looked very good. I'd like to see him against another team's first string D in the next game or two. The Broncos might have a legitimate starter.

Ya, I'm anxious to see how the next few p.s. games play out. I'd like to see BQ and TT get a shot w/ the 1st string. But BQ looked pretty good vs Dallas. I'd like to see him work in the red zone, and if he's able to throw a fade, or any touch pass.

Jesterhole
08-14-2011, 02:30 PM
Not that I'm a big Orton fan, but how is that different from most players? How many of you think your paycheck is more important than the opinion the public has of the company you work for?

epicSocialism4tw
08-14-2011, 02:35 PM
Not that I'm a big Orton fan, but how is that different from most players? How many of you think your paycheck is more important than the opinion the public has of the company you work for?

Anyone belonging to a union.

But seriously...Orton is not the future here.

This season is a waste. Fans' dollars will reflect that.

razorwire77
08-14-2011, 02:37 PM
I also hear that Kyle Orton goes to local animal shelters and kicks puppies in the dick.

How can anyone blame him for taking this approach? Our front office **** the bed with situation. They told Timmy he was going to be the man and to organize team workouts during the lockout. Then they failed to move Orton and decided keep him as a starter after they thought Tebow was too raw to start. Now, if they move him they risk undermining the entire locker room.

TonyR
08-14-2011, 02:40 PM
Orton gives us the best chance to win?

So assuming Fox/Elway go with Orton opening day... do you think they don't want to start the guy who gives them the best chance to win or do you think they do but you know better than them? Serious question.

Spider
08-14-2011, 02:41 PM
dayum the bastard ......for elway loved denver and the fans so much he played for free ...........

epicSocialism4tw
08-14-2011, 02:45 PM
So assuming Fox/Elway go with Orton opening day... do you think they don't want to start the guy who gives them the best chance to win or do you think they do but you know better than them? Serious question.

They don't have the cajones to sit the guy who is friends with the OL and the WR's and to roll with uncertainty.

But Tebow's move to the first team is an inevitability. Fox will learn by week 8 or 9 that Orton is a red zone louse and can't make plays consistently unless the Broncos are pretty far behind. Then he'll make the change or he'll drive the thing further into the dirt.

Beantown Bronco
08-14-2011, 02:48 PM
Unless you can find me a player that plays in the NFL for free, then you can delete "Orton" and insert any other players name in the title of this thread.

Spider
08-14-2011, 02:50 PM
Unless you can find me a player that plays in the NFL for free, then you can delete "Orton" and insert any other players name in the title of this thread.

TEBOW err wait he is getting paid also ......nevermind

TonyR
08-14-2011, 02:52 PM
They don't have the cajones to sit the guy who is friends with the OL and the WR's and to roll with uncertainty.


Possible. Although Fox and Elway don't strike me as guys lacking cajones. I really hope Tebow ends up starting but at the same time I think if they go with Orton they must have good reason to do so.

strafen
08-14-2011, 03:02 PM
Not that I'm a big Orton fan, but how is that different from most players? How many of you think your paycheck is more important than the opinion the public has of the company you work for?

I think the point being made with that comment, is that Orton is not the long term solution at QB for the Broncos.
He'll be looking to cash in with another team next year...

bombay
08-14-2011, 03:09 PM
I think the point being made with that comment, is that Orton is not the long term solution at QB for the Broncos.
He'll be looking to cash in with another team next year...

You're suggesting that he will work for the corporation that offers him the most compensation for his services? They should lock that guy up and throw away the key.

Spider
08-14-2011, 03:11 PM
You're suggesting that he will work for the corporation that offers him the most compensation for his services? They should lock that guy up and throw away the key.

Orton should be banished to Oakland ...wanting compensation for playing in the NFL is just crazy talk

bendog
08-14-2011, 03:15 PM
It was a klis artcile and epicsocialism linked it. cause/effect

zdoor
08-14-2011, 03:22 PM
The article premise is BS. I don't like him but who can blame him for getting the most he can. Where Orton screwed up is giving a big FU to the fans with his quote. He's encouraging people who don't like him to boo him as soon as he screws up. Not a smart move... Will only add to the circus.

oubronco
08-14-2011, 03:24 PM
"Can you handle the truth? Orton is playing for the money, not love of the Broncos or fans. No matter how well Orton performs this season, do you see Denver giving him a new contract for three years and $30 million? I don't think so. So let's be brutally honest: Orton is a mercenary looking for his next NFL job"

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_18678005

Kiz: The Broncos tried to trade Orton to Miami. John Elway and Brian Xanders failed to unload their starting quarterback, same as McDaniels was once unable to trade Cutler for Matt Cassel. What was the fallout? Cutler went ballistic. Orton did not. To borrow a phrase popular around Dove Valley these days, it's nice to know an adult is now playing QB for the Broncos.



Also from that same page

Swedish Extrovert
08-14-2011, 03:25 PM
There is not a single player in the NFL that can honestly say his main reason for playing is the fans.

broncocalijohn
08-14-2011, 03:56 PM
They don't have the cajones to sit the guy who is friends with the OL and the WR's and to roll with uncertainty.

But Tebow's move to the first team is an inevitability. Fox will learn by week 8 or 9 that Orton is a red zone louse and can't make plays consistently unless the Broncos are pretty far behind. Then he'll make the change or he'll drive the thing further into the dirt.

Maybe you should not be surprised when Orton comes out of the goal line area and Tebow comes in. We waited for that with McDummy but it rarely happened. If Orton cannot (once again) produce 7 points instead of 3, then Tebow is the savior.

Archer81
08-14-2011, 04:05 PM
Everytime I try to accept that orton will start I get that metallic taste in my mouth and start to gag. Hopefully I feel better about it after the third PS game. Players are mercanary by nature, and considering that Orton counts as a player to some people he would likewise be out looking for a big payday. When he goes, good luck to him. Good luck, neckbeard.

:Broncos:

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
08-14-2011, 04:15 PM
Unless you can find me a player that plays in the NFL for free, then you can delete "Orton" and insert any other players name in the title of this thread.

I wish that was common knowledge as you think. A little while back a well respected member of this board (who will go nameless here) recently threaed that Orton was being the "man" for playing for a team that "didn't want him". However in truth Orton knew that he had the Broncos over a barrel because the last coach signed him to the most moronic contract in team history. We know this not just because of an aritcle in the Denverpost. But because both Orton and the FO didn't object to the aritcles statments.

Agamemnon
08-14-2011, 04:22 PM
If it's true that Orton torpedoed the trade to Miami, the solution should've been straightforward. Knowing that the guy is banking on getting a better deal after this season, he should've been informed that he would be third string for the rest of the season if he didn't work a deal out with Miami. Sitting on the bench all year would absolutely kill his value, and he couldn't risk that.

broncocalijohn
08-14-2011, 04:22 PM
Let us all hope that he is playing for as much money as possible. If that is the case, he will have a huge contrat from somebody if he produces like a Pro Bowl player. I hope we see that and either we get a great compensation for him or he continues as a Bronco. He still is average, he is gone after this season.

Agamemnon
08-14-2011, 04:25 PM
There is not a single player in the NFL that can honestly say his main reason for playing is the fans.

At the same time not every player plays for money first. In fact, I guarantee you Tebow doesn't.

Agamemnon
08-14-2011, 04:27 PM
Let us all hope that he is playing for as much money as possible. If that is the case, he will have a huge contrat from somebody if he produces like a Pro Bowl player. I hope we see that and either we get a great compensation for him or he continues as a Bronco. He still is average, he is gone after this season.

He could be playing for the life of his mother, wife, and children and it wouldn't really matter. He'd still fail in redzone.

go_broncos
08-14-2011, 04:29 PM
I just don't understand the point in playing Orton. He is gone next year.
We will not extend his contract.
Just trade/cut him. Start Tebow and see if he can play.
If not, then take QB next year.
Is it hard to understand?

errand
08-14-2011, 04:29 PM
If it's true that Orton torpedoed the trade to Miami, the solution should've been straightforward. Knowing that the guy is banking on getting a better deal after this season, he should've been informed that he would be third string for the rest of the season if he didn't work a deal out with Miami. Sitting on the bench all year would absolutely kill his value, and he couldn't risk that.
You're right....sitting the bench doesn't improve his value....so he just went out and outperformed the other QBs in camp, became the starter and has increased his value

errand
08-14-2011, 04:33 PM
I just don't understand the point in playing Orton. He is gone next year.
We will not extend his contract.
Just trade/cut him. Start Tebow and see if he can play.
If not, then take QB next year.
Is it hard to understand?

So no chance he plays well and re-signs with Broncos huh?

go_broncos
08-14-2011, 04:35 PM
So no chance he plays well and re-signs with Broncos huh?

not a chance.

WolfpackGuy
08-14-2011, 04:36 PM
This is the last 9 million dollar year Orton's ever going to see.

As usual, you can blame McClueless.

cutthemdown
08-14-2011, 04:39 PM
Why does Orton get singled out for why he plays? Like Elway always had a love affair with Bronco fans? i remember some testy exchanges.

Winning Superbowls is the only thing in the NFL that creates harmony.

SoCalBronco
08-14-2011, 04:42 PM
So no chance he plays well and re-signs with Broncos huh?

No. That's a complete non-starter. A large portion of the fanbse would be up in arms and would make their displeasure known in what appears to be the only way the old man can understand.

Orton with a long term contract is something at least 85% of the fanbase would absolutely hate. This is not to say all these fans are Tebow lovers, just that we've reached the end of the string with Kyle and his frailties have become too problematic to give us a real chance of going anywhere. It's over, its done with. If they have to keep him this year, its unfortunate and they've completely misplayed it by not engaging in certain activities that would make him more likely to get a deal done with Miami.

It's bad enough that we're going to have to put up with another season of New Jersey Devils style football with Orton. More than that? Forget it.

SoCalBronco
08-14-2011, 04:49 PM
Kiz: The Broncos tried to trade Orton to Miami. John Elway and Brian Xanders failed to unload their starting quarterback, same as McDaniels was once unable to trade Cutler for Matt Cassel. What was the fallout? Cutler went ballistic. Orton did not. To borrow a phrase popular around Dove Valley these days, it's nice to know an adult is now playing QB for the Broncos.



Also from that same page

A poor analogy from Kiszla (as usual). Orton knew the whole offseason he was likely to be dealt (and probably wanted to be dealt in light of Tebow taking over the reins late last season). He knew he wasn't particularly wanted anymore and he wasn't particularly effective, so yeah, he has no reason to complain about possibly being dealt, if anything he's happy. Jay on the other hand, was coming off a Pro Bowl season, was ready, willing and able to work on adapting to the new system (as evidenced by voluntarily coming in on multiple occasions prior to March) only to find out, out of the blue, that his coach was trying to trade him for a guy that turned out to be a huge scrub outside of NE.

But yeah, they're the same, right Mark? Douche.

go_broncos
08-14-2011, 05:20 PM
A poor analogy from Kiszla (as usual). Orton knew the whole offseason he was likely to be dealt (and probably wanted to be dealt in light of Tebow taking over the reins late last season). He knew he wasn't particularly wanted anymore and he wasn't particularly effective, so yeah, he has no reason to complain about possibly being dealt, if anything he's happy. Jay on the other hand, was coming off a Pro Bowl season, was ready, willing and able to work on adapting to the new system (as evidenced by voluntarily coming in on multiple occasions prior to March) only to find out, out of the blue, that his coach was trying to trade him for a guy that turned out to be a huge scrub outside of NE.

But yeah, they're the same, right Mark? Douche.

Kizla will support Elway and Front Office if Baja is our starting QB.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
08-14-2011, 05:46 PM
If it's true that Orton torpedoed the trade to Miami, the solution should've been straightforward. Knowing that the guy is banking on getting a better deal after this season, he should've been informed that he would be third string for the rest of the season if he didn't work a deal out with Miami. Sitting on the bench all year would absolutely kill his value, and he couldn't risk that.

Yes, but what about the Broncos side. Broncos want starter quility value for Orton. If you bench him, your saying that he not starter quility and you have to pay him starter money on top of it. My prediction is that Orton will start til the trade deadline then he'll sit for the rest of the year, or he'll get traded.

Agamemnon
08-14-2011, 05:52 PM
Yes, but what about the Broncos side. Broncos want starter quility value for Orton. If you bench him, your saying that he not starter quility and you have to pay him starter money on top of it. My prediction is that Orton will start til the trade deadline then he'll sit for the rest of the year, or he'll get traded.

The point is that we needed to move on. Period. Even if we were simply forced to release him and eat a chunk of his salary, so be it. Keeping him on the team hurts us in the long-term.

cutthemdown
08-14-2011, 05:56 PM
The point is that we needed to move on. Period. Even if we were simply forced to release him and eat a chunk of his salary, so be it. Keeping him on the team hurts us in the long-term.

What if by doing that you piss off Lloyd and he won't resign. It's chess not checkers.

Swedish Extrovert
08-14-2011, 05:58 PM
At the same time not every player plays for money first. In fact, I guarantee you Tebow doesn't.

The Broncos offered him Dez Bryant's (the player drafted right before him) contract... Tebow held out from the first week because of what his agent called a "quarterback premium."

gunns
08-14-2011, 06:00 PM
Elway only started when Deberg got hurt, and was so unimpressive that Kubes actually took a start. He did play better as time went on. But he didn't play in a spread offense that left the qb in shotgun all the time.

Yes, Elway improved each time he played. I give Tebow the fact there were not OTA's, training camp was rushed. I do think he needs to be starting (as whomever we start I don't see them being the winning reason) if for no other reason than to see what we need to do next year AND to give him the opportunity to grow, if it's there.

Elway and Tebow both had similar TD amounts their first year but all of Tebows were rushing TD's. I do not want a predominantly rushing QB. He's going to get killed eventually running all the time and it hasn't been conducive to a successful QB. I get tired of people comparing our QB's to Elway at any given moment in their careers. People used to do it with Plummer. Sheesh. Until they have the success AND God given talent of the man, there is no comparison.

Swedish Extrovert
08-14-2011, 06:01 PM
Face it guys, Orton is just as much of a leader as anybody on the team. He has a year left on his contract and is the best QB we have right now. Tebow is clearly not ready to start, and one more season and an actual full offseason will do him well, and we might have QBOF, we might not.

Agamemnon, I noticed you joined Omane right after Tebow's first few starts... you're taking to this Broncos fan thing quite nicely. What are you going to do if Tebow gets traded? You'll have to start over.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
08-14-2011, 06:02 PM
The point is that we needed to move on. Period. Even if we were simply forced to release him and eat a chunk of his salary, so be it. Keeping him on the team hurts us in the long-term.

Easy for you to say, its not your money and its not your cap space.

Swedish Extrovert
08-14-2011, 06:05 PM
Yes, Elway improved each time he played. I give Tebow the fact there were not OTA's, training camp was rushed. I do think he needs to be starting (as whomever we start I don't see them being the winning reason) if for no other reason than to see what we need to do next year AND to give him the opportunity to grow, if it's there.

Elway and Tebow both had similar TD amounts their first year but all of Tebows were rushing TD's. I do not want a predominantly rushing QB. He's going to get killed eventually running all the time and it hasn't been conducive to a successful QB. I get tired of people comparing our QB's to Elway at any given moment in their careers. People used to do it with Plummer. Sheesh. Until they have the success AND God given talent of the man, there is no comparison.

This is a reasonable post, but I'm still for letting sit out one more year.

I think playing QB is kinda like playing golf in that if you do too much too soon, you start to develop bad playing habits that you have to un-learn. That's why he's a work in progress. I think Fox and/or Elway have even used those exact words, "work in progress."

Also, I think that the defense and running game is going to be vastly improved this year, and our passing game is solid. I'm expecting from 6-10 to 9-7, BUT a lot of *well respected* experts are picking the Broncos as their sleeper team this year. I think a lot of it hinges on the dline, where not a single starter is returning.

Orton is better than he gets credit for, too.

Swedish Extrovert
08-14-2011, 06:06 PM
If we're talking short term - as in just this year, or even just our first 8 games, I would honestly take Quinn over Tebow right now.

Swedish Extrovert
08-14-2011, 06:07 PM
Yes, but what about the Broncos side. Broncos want starter quility value for Orton. If you bench him, your saying that he not starter quility and you have to pay him starter money on top of it. My prediction is that Orton will start til the trade deadline then he'll sit for the rest of the year, or he'll get traded.

I kinda secretly expect this as well.

TheReverend
08-14-2011, 06:32 PM
Kiz: The Broncos tried to trade Orton to Miami. John Elway and Brian Xanders failed to unload their starting quarterback, same as McDaniels was once unable to trade Cutler for Matt Cassel. What was the fallout? Cutler went ballistic. Orton did not. To borrow a phrase popular around Dove Valley these days, it's nice to know an adult is now playing QB for the Broncos.

"Cutler went ballistic" by saying he'd show up to team activities?

Dove Valley is filled with retards. The difference between Orton and Cutler here is talent and being wanted by other teams.

errand
08-14-2011, 06:37 PM
Read an interesting article tonight.....it basically said Fox is one wiley coach....he first says he's glad he had 3 guys that can play QB.....then he goes on discussing how Orton was criticized about 3rd down and red zone issues ...that Tebow runs a lot..and that Quinn didn't feel like he was given fair shake under josh ....so what does Fox do? He calls passes on both...one Orton hits Decker for 29 yards and the other is inred zone that Orton throws away settling for FG ...he then inserts Tebow and calls several passes in which Tebow runs on 4 of them....he then lets Quinn play the entire 2nd half...so Fox basically put all 3 in situations so he could truly evaluate them...food for thought

gunns
08-14-2011, 06:45 PM
This is a reasonable post, but I'm still for letting sit out one more year.

I think playing QB is kinda like playing golf in that if you do too much too soon, you start to develop bad playing habits that you have to un-learn. That's why he's a work in progress. I think Fox and/or Elway have even used those exact words, "work in progress."

Also, I think that the defense and running game is going to be vastly improved this year, and our passing game is solid. I'm expecting from 6-10 to 9-7, BUT a lot of *well respected* experts are picking the Broncos as their sleeper team this year. I think a lot of it hinges on the dline, where not a single starter is returning.

Orton is better than he gets credit for, too.

A work in progress is progressing and Tebow isn't. As I said I give him the fact there were no OTA's, etc., but being taken in the first round (which I considered stupid) he should be making more of a contribution. I do not believe our passing game is solid, it hasn't been since Elway. It's been inconsistent. While I believe a rookie QB should sit for a year, Tebow has, it's time to be thrown into the fire. He has an excellent work ethic and seems to be eager to learn. Let's do it now, so we can look to the future, one way or another.

Swedish Extrovert
08-14-2011, 06:57 PM
Read an interesting article tonight.....it basically said Fox is one wiley coach....he first says he's glad he had 3 guys that can play QB.....then he goes on discussing how Orton was criticized about 3rd down and red zone issues ...that Tebow runs a lot..and that Quinn didn't feel like he was given fair shake under josh ....so what does Fox do? He calls passes on both...one Orton hits Decker for 29 yards and the other is inred zone that Orton throws away settling for FG ...he then inserts Tebow and calls several passes in which Tebow runs on 4 of them....he then lets Quinn play the entire 2nd half...so Fox basically put all 3 in situations so he could truly evaluate them...food for thought

Isn't that what coaches do?

Rigs11
08-14-2011, 07:05 PM
No shlt he's playing for money.you should support him llama you are a hardcore capitalist aren't you?

TailgateNut
08-14-2011, 07:12 PM
ROFL!The article premise is BS. I don't like him but who can blame him for getting the most he can. Where Orton screwed up is giving a big FU to the fans with his quote. He's encouraging people who don't like him to boo him as soon as he screws up. Not a smart move... Will only add to the circus.

But it's ok for the Tebonites to flip him off (or the equivalent thereof).ROFL!

TheReverend
08-14-2011, 07:14 PM
ROFL!

But it's ok for the Tebonites to flip him off (or the equivalent thereof).ROFL!

So...

What you're trying to tell me is that...

Denver fans are a 6?

TailgateNut
08-14-2011, 07:17 PM
So...

What you're trying to tell me is that...

Denver fans are a 6?

They used to be a 10, and now I'd say we're pushing it to rate them/us a a 6.

OABB
08-14-2011, 07:22 PM
"Cutler went ballistic" by saying he'd show up to team activities?

Dove Valley is filled with retards. The difference between Orton and Cutler here is talent and being wanted by other teams.

and orton has testicles.

SoCalBronco
08-14-2011, 07:31 PM
and orton has testicles.

Jay is a wonderful kid, with tons of sack and heart. He played through the effects of untreated diabetes for a year (nice work, Greek).

He tried to make it work. It's not his fault the old man wouldn't give him the time of day to meet with him.


http://broncotalk.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/cutler_shanahan.jpg

A paradise lost.

broncocalijohn
08-14-2011, 07:36 PM
http://broncotalk.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/cutler_shanahan.jpg

A paradise lost.

See folks, remember the days when going 11-5 was considered something to shoot for with a division win? SoCal equates paradise as two guys going for the ultimate record of 8-8.

broncofan4life
08-14-2011, 07:37 PM
Jay is a wonderful kid, with tons of sack and heart. He played through the effects of untreated diabetes for a year (nice work, Greek).

He tried to make it work. It's not his fault the old man wouldn't give him the time of day to meet with him.


http://broncotalk.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/cutler_shanahan.jpg

A paradise lost.

i completely agree with you truly a match made in heaven

TheReverend
08-14-2011, 07:42 PM
Jay is a wonderful kid, with tons of sack and heart. He played through the effects of untreated diabetes for a year (nice work, Greek).

He tried to make it work. It's not his fault the old man wouldn't give him the time of day to meet with him.


[IMG]http://broncotalk.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/cutler_shanahan.jpg[IMG]

A paradise lost.

This. Can't even imagine what was going through his head towards the end of that season.

****ing Kyle can't play through a bruise (seriously)

SoCalBronco
08-14-2011, 07:43 PM
See folks, remember the days when going 11-5 was considered something to shoot for with a division win? SoCal equates paradise as two guys going for the ultimate record of 8-8.

8-8 wasn't great....esp the way it ended, but the collection of talent we were putting together on offense was truly tremendous. Two premier OT's for the zone scheme, a borderline Pro Bowl guard, two good TE's that complimented each other, two terrific young WR's, a massively talented QB, and the great Hillis. The key personnel were all young and talented, with big upside. That's nothing to sneeze at, John. Yes, the other side of the ball sucked, but considering we could focus all our effort and resources there, we had the makings of a very nice long term run. It was a paradise lost and it sucked to see it get all destroyed.

TheReverend
08-14-2011, 07:43 PM
and orton has testicles.

Is that why heading into his 7th year, we're still waiting for a full season of play?

mwill07
08-14-2011, 07:57 PM
Agreed. Management has played it rather poorly. The team has tried to convey the perspective (through their lapdogs in the press...cough, Klis, cough) that the problem was solely between Orton and the Dolphins regarding contracts. Well, if that is the case, they should have "motivated" Kyle to expedite resolution of his contractual issues with the Dolphins. In other words, make his camp miserable. No reps, no interviews, no nothing, except for maybe running laps and engaging in a great deal of other spirited and intense conditioning exercises....alot of them. After all, we wouldn't want him to be in camp for Miami being poorly conditioned. That wouldn't be fair to our trading partner. Instead, we've been bending over backwards to him, giving him precious reps that would have been more valuable for Tebow's development since Orton is an experienced vet and Tebow was robbed of OTA's by the lockout. What we should have done was make it ****ing miserable for him to the furthest extent permitted by the CBA. You get that contract worked out...or else.

I really don't like this approach. Orton is a vet, he is a team leader, he deserves more respect than this. If the Broncos had played it like that, I think Fox would have a real tough time holding onto his "players coach" reputation, and there would be locker room backlash.

broncocalijohn
08-14-2011, 08:00 PM
SoCal, I was a fan of Shannys and was shocked when he got canned. The more came out about items and reflecting the records and some horrible drafts (you want to shine with Clady and Cutler) but he completely ignored defense, players and a coach that he can get along with. It is easy for you to assume that we were heading in a positive direction but in how many years would that take? Your saving grace isnt the fact of what Shanny was doing or got to do in an upcoming season but that McDaniels was such a complete ****ing failure, he couldn't prove Pro Shanny's fans wrong. We were stagnant with Shanahan. We were bottom of the barrel horrible with McDaniels.

Agamemnon
08-14-2011, 08:01 PM
What if by doing that you piss off Lloyd and he won't resign. It's chess not checkers.

Lloyd will re-sign if we offer him enough. He doesn't give a **** about Orton, and you're kidding yourself if you think he does. He's just going to want money. And anyway, if what you are saying is true then goodbye. If keeping Lloyd involves keeping Orton he's simply not worth it.

Agamemnon
08-14-2011, 08:03 PM
Easy for you to say, its not your money and its not your cap space.

Long-term player development > short-term loss of a few million in cap space/salary. If the FO thinks otherwise then we are in real trouble.

SoCalBronco
08-14-2011, 08:06 PM
Long-term player development > short-term loss of a few million in cap space/salary. If the FO thinks otherwise then we are in real trouble.

Indeed.

Incidentally, I think we're still somewhere in the rough vicinity of 20m below the cap, so cap space wouldn't be an issue, anyway.

Agamemnon
08-14-2011, 08:07 PM
8-8 wasn't great....esp the way it ended, but the collection of talent we were putting together on offense was truly tremendous. Two premier OT's for the zone scheme, a borderline Pro Bowl guard, two good TE's that complimented each other, two terrific young WR's, a massively talented QB, and the great Hillis. The key personnel were all young and talented, with big upside. That's nothing to sneeze at, John. Yes, the other side of the ball sucked, but considering we could focus all our effort and resources there, we had the makings of a very nice long term run. It was a paradise lost and it sucked to see it get all destroyed.

Sorry, but that offense wasn't nearly as talented as you are making out. Not even close. And if you think Shanny was ever going to fix that defense you are ignoring years and years of evidence to the contrary.

TheReverend
08-14-2011, 08:07 PM
SoCal, I was a fan of Shannys and was shocked when he got canned. The more came out about items and reflecting the records and some horrible drafts (you want to shine with Clady and Cutler) but he completely ignored defense, players and a coach that he can get along with. It is easy for you to assume that we were heading in a positive direction but in how many years would that take? Your saving grace isnt the fact of what Shanny was doing or got to do in an upcoming season but that McDaniels was such a complete ****ing failure, he couldn't prove Pro Shanny's fans wrong. We were stagnant with Shanahan. We were bottom of the barrel horrible with McDaniels.

...Our most talented defenders are still from Shanahan.

SoCalBronco
08-14-2011, 08:14 PM
Sorry, but that offense wasn't nearly as talented as you are making out. Not even close. And if you think Shanny was ever going to fix that defense you are ignoring years and years of evidence to the contrary.

The difference between our total offense rank and our PPG rank was largely attributable to a negative turnover rate and also poor red zone production. When Hillis came into the starting lineup, from what I remember, our red zone production increased markedly. With regard to the turnovers, the staff had already shown the ability to unleash Jay while keeping his INT totals at an acceptable level (14, 2007). It's also a process of football maturation for young players. Nearly every guy I mentioned above was a very young player in the ascent of his career, so it would be reasonable to assume that they would only get better.

Defensively, while Shanny did have his misses on some high profile guys, as I've pointed out earlier (which you resisted and then whent FA started, you were proven wrong), a good deal of the problem here is that Bowlen has been simply unwilling to make the investment required to win. We overperformed our spending practices. Even now, where there is no cap floor and no dead money accruing from pre-current CBA years, we're still not spending a damn thing. If Shanny was given a reasonable amount of funds to pursue FA's and devoted his entire draft to defense in 2010, its extremely likely we would have come away with at least a couple solid players, just by random chance if nothing more. And Shanny indicated after he was fired that he was prepared to use almost the entire draft to address this problem. Would he have missed on some of these defenders? Sure. But would he have gone 0 for 7? Please.

With arguably the worst defense in the history of the club, we were a .500 club. Do you really not see how we needed only incremental improvement to be a decent club for years going forward?

errand
08-14-2011, 08:26 PM
Isn't that what coaches do?

Well sure....the point is that many fans questioned the three consecutive pass plays on initial drive with 1st teamers...also we all know they want Tebow to make his progression reads vs running if primary is covered, so he called for more passing than running to see if he'd stay in pocket.....ends up he didn't do badly but he didn't seem comfortable in pocket....and he let Quinn play more than Tebow and yet we got fans saying that he's already made up his mind how the QB position competition is gonna end before the preseason is over. Like I said food for thought.....maybe our #1 QB hasn't been picked afterall

Agamemnon
08-14-2011, 08:29 PM
The difference between our total offense rank and our PPG rank was largely attributable to a negative turnover rate and also poor red zone production. When Hillis came into the starting lineup, from what I remember, our red zone production increased markedly. With regard to the turnovers, the staff had already shown the ability to unleash Jay while keeping his INT totals at an acceptable level (14, 2007). It's also a process of football maturation for young players. Nearly every guy I mentioned above was a very young player in the ascent of his career, so it would be reasonable to assume that they would only get better.

Defensively, while Shanny did have his misses on some high profile guys, as I've pointed out earlier (which you resisted and then whent FA started, you were proven wrong), a good deal of the problem here is that Bowlen has been simply unwilling to make the investment required to win. We overperformed our spending practices. Even now, where there is no cap floor and no dead money accruing from pre-current CBA years, we're still not spending a damn thing. If Shanny was given a reasonable amount of funds to pursue FA's and devoted his entire draft to defense in 2010, its extremely likely we would have come away with at least a couple solid players, just by random chance if nothing more. And Shanny indicated after he was fired that he was prepared to use almost the entire draft to address this problem. Would he have missed on some of these defenders? Sure. But would he have gone 0 for 7? Please.

With arguably the worst defense in the history of the club, we were a .500 club. Do you really not see how we needed only incremental improvement to be a decent club for years going forward?

Even if our offense was destined to become truly elite (which I think is a big assumption), we were never going to contend with Shanny as our GM. He lacked the ability and the will to build a good defense or special teams or to hire and keep a good DC. That wasn't going to change. Keeping him would have only prolonged the mediocrity that has become his hallmark post-1998.

Just because the hiring of McD proved to be a mistake does not mean that firing Shanahan was. We had grown stagnant and needed a change. We just needed people with better heads for football choosing what form that change would take.

SoCalBronco
08-14-2011, 08:32 PM
Even if our offense was destined to become truly elite (which I think is a big assumption), we were never going to contend with Shanny as our GM. He lacked the ability and the will to build a good defense or special teams or to hire and keep a good DC. That wasn't going to change. Keeping him would have only prolonged the mediocrity that has become his hallmark post-1998.

Just because the hiring of McD proved to be a mistake does not mean that firing Shanahan was. We had grown stagnant and needed a change. We just needed people with better heads for football choosing what form that change would take.

Shanny already proved the ability to build a good defense at least twice earlier in his tenure. Do you remember what drove the team in 2005? I'll give you a hint, it wasn't the offense. Even halfway into 2006, our defense was flat out dominating people. So you're saying a couple years later, he woudl be completely incapable of replicating what he did just a short while earlier?

Really, is that your actual argument?

Agamemnon
08-14-2011, 08:34 PM
...Our most talented defenders are still from Shanahan.

Only because McD proved to be one of the worst personnel people in the history of football. That's hardly a glowing endorsement of Shanny's ability to draft or acquire defensive talent.

TheReverend
08-14-2011, 08:39 PM
Only because McD proved to be one of the worst personnel people in the history of football. That's hardly a glowing endorsement of Shanny's ability to draft or acquire defensive talent.

He acquired some of the BEST defenders in the NFL at every level. Pryce, Wilson and Champ are probably top 50 players of the decade (IMO, at the least).

On top of that, his defensive resume is flat out sick. Better than every "defensive minded" HoF coach in this era EXCLUDING Bill Cowher.

So. Yeah.

And that's neither here nor there. I FULLY believe we'd be competing for a championship this season if Bowlen weren't retarded and looking at dynasty potential.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
08-14-2011, 08:39 PM
Long-term player development > short-term loss of a few million in cap space/salary. If the FO thinks otherwise then we are in real trouble.

One, what about the value of a starting QB. Two, everybody is graded on wins and loses. Peroid. Let's look at your scenerio(sp). We bench/cut Orton. Tebow is named starter. He blows this year (to be expected). FO says "well Tebow needs time to develope". Ok. We pass on Luck. Three years have passed and we still suck. In that case Fox will be fired ans Elway is hanging on a thread. By that time most college pocket passers are but extinct. Leaving us nobody to draft or develope.

Agamemnon
08-14-2011, 08:41 PM
Shanny already proved the ability to build a good defense at least twice earlier in his tenure. Do you remember what drove the team in 2005? I'll give you a hint, it wasn't the offense. Even halfway into 2006, our defense was flat out dominating people. So you're saying a couple years later, he woudl be completely incapable of replicating what he did just a short while earlier?

Really, is that your actual argument?

We had the 5th ranked offense and 15th ranked defense in 2005. And the 2006 defense completely fell apart by the end. You are kidding yourself if those two years are what you cling to to prove that Shanny could build a good defense. All you've proven is that he occasionally cobbled together mediocre defenses that tended to collapse against better teams because they were weak in the trenches. Something that's well known by most Broncos fans.

extralife
08-14-2011, 08:45 PM
why is it that all of these Tebow people tend to hate, uhh, everyone or thing else that has ever been associated with this franchise?

they're the real fans, though, because no one knows what Tebow has inside of him.

Agamemnon
08-14-2011, 08:47 PM
One, what about the value of a starting QB. Two, everybody is graded on wins and loses. Peroid. Let's look at your scenerio(sp). We bench/cut Orton. Tebow is named starter. He blows this year (to be expected). FO says "well Tebow needs time to develope". Ok. We pass on Luck. Three years have passed and we still suck. In that case Fox will be fired ans Elway is hanging on a thread. By that time most college pocket passers are but extinct. Leaving us nobody to draft or develope.

Orton does absolutely nothing to assure more wins for this team. Absolutely nothing. To say otherwise is pure delusion that disregards all of last season and the last ten games of the season before that. Starting Tebow does not hurt our chances to win in any way shape or form. The truth is that we are not a good team either way.

And if you think that Elway and Fox will give Tebow another year if he's as bad as you seem to be suggesting he will be you are crazy. They are not committed to the kid. They've made that abundantly clear. If he starts this season and ****s the bed, they will draft another QB. Period. All the more reason to give him all the 1st team reps and a whole season to make his case.

SoCalBronco
08-14-2011, 08:49 PM
We had the 5th ranked offense and 15th ranked defense in 2005. And the 2006 defense completely fell apart by the end. You are kidding yourself if those two years are what you cling to to prove that Shanny could build a good defense. All you've proven is that he occasionally cobbled together mediocre defenses that tended to collapse against better teams because they were weak in the trenches. Something that's well known by most Broncos fans.

Here is the fundamental problem with your argument. On the one hand, you're discouting the 08 offense because yards aren't turning into points, but on the other hand, your refusing to look at points in 2005 and instead focusing on yards. Either you have to concede that Denver really had the No.2 offense in the NFL in 2008, or you will have to concede that Denver had (tied for) the No. 3 defense in 2005 (16.1 PPG). Which is it?

TheReverend
08-14-2011, 08:54 PM
Here is the fundamental problem with your argument. On the one hand, you're discouting the 08 offense because yards aren't turning into points, but on the other hand, your refusing to look at points in 2005 and instead focusing on yards. Either you have to concede that Denver really had the No.2 offense in the NFL in 2008, or you will have to concede that Denver had (tied for) the No. 3 defense in 2005 (16.1 PPG). Which is it?

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/118/896/55780636_display_image.jpg?1311377001

HAT
08-14-2011, 08:54 PM
They are not committed to the kid. They've made that abundantly clear. If he starts this season and ****s the bed, they will draft another QB. Period.

Link?

Agamemnon
08-14-2011, 08:57 PM
He acquired some of the BEST defenders in the NFL at every level. Pryce, Wilson and Champ are probably top 50 players of the decade (IMO, at the least).

On top of that, his defensive resume is flat out sick. Better than every "defensive minded" HoF coach in this era EXCLUDING Bill Cowher.

So. Yeah.

And that's neither here nor there. I FULLY believe we'd be competing for a championship this season if Bowlen weren't retarded and looking at dynasty potential.

His defensive resume is "flat out sick"? Seriously? Of the three players you listed he only drafted two, and he traded one of those away over petty ego conflicts. What other defensive greats did he draft over his 14 year tenure with the Broncos?

I can think of some good players here and there, but there's much longer list of busts than successes.

SoCalBronco
08-14-2011, 09:04 PM
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/118/896/55780636_display_image.jpg?1311377001

Courtney was a very good run defender, here. I also appreciated the fact that he restructed his contract to save Denver money. I feel bad for him...without all those injuries throughout his career, he could have been a tremendous player.

Agamemnon
08-14-2011, 09:11 PM
Here is the fundamental problem with your argument. On the one hand, you're discouting the 08 offense because yards aren't turning into points, but on the other hand, your refusing to look at points in 2005 and instead focusing on yards. Either you have to concede that Denver really had the No.2 offense in the NFL in 2008, or you will have to concede that Denver had (tied for) the No. 3 defense in 2005 (16.1 PPG). Which is it?

No the fundamental problem is that you aren't taking a holistic approach to how you assess either. My argument never brought up yards vs. points. I'm looking at what those units were as a whole.

The 2005 defense was built on smoke a mirrors and relied on scheming and blitzing to succeed. It lacked the players on the line needed to simply line up a smash a team in the mouth, and was eventually exploited because of it. A lack of talent on the line, as always with Denver, proved to be its downfall. No defense is truly good without a great d-line.

The 2008 offense made use of zone-blocking and Shanny's take on spread formations to rack up tons of yards between the 20s, but lacked the dominant o-line and backs to effectively run in the redzone. They also had a QB that consistently failed to protect the ball in scoring situations.

Neither was that great. Both were good units that had glaring flaws that undermined their overall effectiveness. It isn't just about yards and points as neither tell the whole truth.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
08-14-2011, 09:11 PM
Orton does absolutely nothing to assure more wins for this team. Absolutely nothing. To say otherwise is pure delusion that disregards all of last season and the last ten games of the season before that. Starting Tebow does not hurt our chances to win in any way shape or form. The truth is that we are not a good team either way.

And if you think that Elway and Fox will give Tebow another year if he's as bad as you seem to be suggesting he will be you are crazy. They are not committed to the kid. They've made that abundantly clear. If he starts this season and ****s the bed, they will draft another QB. Period. All the more reason to give him all the 1st team reps and a whole season to make his case.

Its not me making the call. Its the coaches. And unless you're one of the coaches and you get to work 80 hours a week, watching coaching tape, coaching the players, running practices, going through break downs and getting paid millions or hundreds of thousands of dollars this all just theory. What we know about football wouldn't fill a thumball to what coaches know. So just sit back and be a Broncos fan.


Unless your a Tebow fan. Then we haven't heard the last of you.

Agamemnon
08-14-2011, 09:22 PM
Its not me making the call. Its the coaches. And unless you're one of the coaches and you get to work 80 hours a week, watching coaching tape, coaching the players, running practices, going through break downs and getting paid millions or hundreds of thousands of dollars this all just theory. What we know about football wouldn't fill a thumball to what coaches know. So just sit back and be a Broncos fan.


Unless your a Tebow fan. Then we haven't heard the last of you.

These kinds of arguments were used for McD as well. They are weak appeals to authority that hold no water in an actual debate.

The choice to start Orton is based in conservatism, preferring the known, reliable commodity that is ultimately underwhelming to the unknown and erratic play of a guy who is still basically a rookie. It's a philosophical choice. Not a choice determined purely by football knowledge. There are coaches that would make a different choice in the same situation. It's happened many times. In fact, it'll likely happen on several teams this year before the season starts.

SoCalBronco
08-14-2011, 09:28 PM
No the fundamental problem is that you aren't taking a holistic approach to how you assess either. My argument never brought up yards vs. points. I'm looking at what those units were as a whole.

The 2005 defense was built on smoke a mirrors and relied on scheming and blitzing to succeed. It lacked the players on the line needed to simply line up a smash a team in the mouth, and was eventually exploited because of it. A lack of talent on the line, as always with Denver, proved to be its downfall. No defense is truly good without a great d-line.

The 2008 offense made use of zone-blocking and Shanny's take on spread formations to rack up tons of yards between the 20s, but lacked the dominant o-line and backs to effectively run in the redzone. They also had a QB that consistently failed to protect the ball in scoring situations.

Neither was that great. Both were good units that had glaring flaws that undermined their overall effectiveness. It isn't just about yards and points as neither tell the whole truth.

Holistic approach? I never said either of these units were perfect, but my argument was that we had built up an impressive array of young offensive talent by 2008 (that would be reasonably expected to only get better due to their age and more cohesivness over time). Yes, the 2005 defense benefitted to some extent due to being very good at turnover-making as well as confusing opponents with blitz schemes (props to Coyer), but they also had good talent as well. The Browncos played pretty well for us that year and the LB's were well thought of as a group. The secondary also had several good players (one great player). The point is that Shanny was able to build a good, functional NFL defense that was upper echelon. The D was largely good in 04 and 03 as well BTW. So it is hard for me to accept the maxim that Shanny was somehow completely incapable of building a decent NFL defense. We didn't need to be an all-pro unit to be a perennial playoff team, just halfway decent, that's it. Offense was well on its way. If you don't think Shanny could have built a halfway decent defense using his whole draft on it (and some FA's if Bowlen permitted money to leave his pockets for once), I dont know what to tell you, man.

Agamemnon
08-14-2011, 09:35 PM
Holistic approach? I never said either of these units were perfect, but my argument was that we had built up an impressive array of young offensive talent by 2008 (that would be reasonably expected to only get better due to their age and more cohesivness over time). Yes, the 2005 defense benefitted to some extent due to being very good at turnover-making as well as confusing opponents with blitz schemes (props to Coyer), but they also had good talent as well. The Browncos played pretty well for us that year and the LB's were well thought of as a group. The secondary also had several good players (one great player). The point is that Shanny was able to build a good, functional NFL defense that was upper echelon. The D was largely good in 04 and 03 as well BTW. So it is hard for me to accept the maxim that Shanny was somehow completely incapable of building a decent NFL defense. We didn't need to be an all-pro unit to be a perennial playoff team, just halfway decent, that's it. Offense was well on its way. If you don't think Shanny could have built a halfway decent defense using his whole draft on it (and some FA's if Bowlen permitted money to leave his pockets for once), I dont know what to tell you, man.

The thought of Shanny using an entire draft on defense doesn't strike you as improbable?

And you do remember that he wanted to keep Slowick right?

I really don't get where the optimism comes from on the defensive fron when it comes to Shanny. Hell the guy took the 10th ranked defense of 2009 and made them the 31st ranked defense of 2010. His career (especially in recent years) is littered with terrible defenses and terrible DCs with a few middling ones sprinkled in. I just don't get it.

But whatever. You're free to believe what you like, as am I.

SoCalBronco
08-14-2011, 09:42 PM
The thought of Shanny using an entire draft on defense doesn't strike you as improbable?

And you do remember that he wanted to keep Slowick right?



Why would it be improbable? I remember reading a Shanny interview after he was fired and he spoke of his plan to devote almost the whole draft to fixing the D. He also believed he had pretty much all his pieces set on offense...so where else would these picks go (perhaps one or two would be used to continue to fortify the interior OL, but other than that, where else but D)?

Yes, he wanted to keep Slowik, but like Jim Bates before him, nobody's scheme is going to work (whether sound or not) without at least a decent number of players. I don't think Slowik was a great DC by any means (prolly a good DB coach tho), but the key to evaluating him is seeing how well he would do with a decent modicum of system specific talent.

broncocalijohn
08-14-2011, 09:42 PM
...Our most talented defenders are still from Shanahan.

Champ Bailey? Yes but not drafted. We brought him in because we were getting crushed everytime we faced the Colts. If we are talking drafting, I don't think that is a ringing endorsement for a good defense. While everyone sees a Elvis Doomerville from his later drafts, I see guys that won't change much or pretty much sucked in Karl Paymeh (who I thought would turn out to be a good CB),Jarvin Moss, Tim Crowder and Jack "MF" Williams. He turned over defensive coaches like teams would do with kickers. Larry Coyer has done well in Indianapolis, Jim Bates and Bob Slowick. Bob Slowick sucked so bad in Green Bay that he made them a laughing stock for defense yet Shanny still saw something in that stiff and put him on his staff. If our most talented defenders are still from Shanahan, then we are in more trouble than bringing in guys since then.
Shanny couldnt give a rat's ass about the draft and now I wish Bowlen and Company looked at a defensive coach in 2009. If that is where most of the problem lied, he could have started fresh on that side of the ball.

Agamemnon
08-14-2011, 09:49 PM
Why would it be improbable? I remember reading a Shanny interview after he was fired and he spoke of his plan to devote almost the whole draft to fixing the D. He also believed he had pretty much all his pieces set on offense...so where else would these picks go (perhaps one or two would be used to continue to fortify the interior OL, but other than that, where else but D)?

Yes, he wanted to keep Slowik, but like Jim Bates before him, nobody's scheme is going to work (whether sound or not) without at least a decent number of players. I don't think Slowik was a great DC by any means (prolly a good DB coach tho), but the key to evaluating him is seeing how well he would do with a decent modicum of system specific talent.

So let me get this straight.

We can't really judge Slowick because he didn't have enough talent? We needed to wait until he had more talent? Don't you see the problem with that? Our lack of talent was a result of Shanny's inability to draft, and apathy towards drafting, defensive players. You are banking on the guy who created the talent black hole on the defense to magically fix it, and then you are hoping that a DC that has never looked any good will somehow change his colors. You are a true believer it seems.

Kaylore
08-14-2011, 09:50 PM
Yes, he wanted to keep Slowik, but like Jim Bates before him, nobody's scheme is going to work (whether sound or not) without at least a decent number of players. I don't think Slowik was a great DC by any means (prolly a good DB coach tho), but the key to evaluating him is seeing how well he would do with a decent modicum of system specific talent.

WRONG! I love this argument. "Shanahan was going to fix the defense in the next offseason!"

With what? Draft picks? He's never been able to draft defense. Even with the Goodmans. What magically would allow him to not just right, but get virtually all right (which he would have needed as bad as we were) enough to make a significant change?

Free agents? Shanahan was worse at finding free agents than his draft picks easily. Again you're only argument could be "well he was going to get it right this time, all prior behavior and evidence to the contrary."

Trades? Shanahan did very well here, but with what? Picks? That offensive talent you just put together? What do you give up?

Even if you think he could finally figure it out, as terrible as we were it would have taken the greatest genius of a GM several years to get the pieces into place. It's not like we were going from 16th to 8th. We were at the bottom of the league in every major category. And even if we were able to draft and sign guys, do you honestly believe Slowick was going to put it all together? With his retarded scheme that made any QB we played look godly and couldn't stop the run? You honestly believe he knew how to not just identify, but develop defensive talent.

You're entire post is a big fantasy and a total Shanahomer. I think deep down, if any fan looks at the situation objectively they know Shanahan indeed would have tried to "fix the defense that offseason" and would have failed like always did.

broncocalijohn
08-14-2011, 09:50 PM
Why would it be improbable? I remember reading a Shanny interview after he was fired and he spoke of his plan to devote almost the whole draft to fixing the D. He also believed he had pretty much all his pieces set on offense...so where else would these picks go (perhaps one or two would be used to continue to fortify the interior OL, but other than that, where else but D)?

Yes, he wanted to keep Slowik, but like Jim Bates before him, nobody's scheme is going to work (whether sound or not) without at least a decent number of players. I don't think Slowik was a great DC by any means (prolly a good DB coach tho), but the key to evaluating him is seeing how well he would do with a decent modicum of system specific talent.

SoCal, You and Shanny is almost as nauseating as MacGruder and Tebow. His plan was way past its due date. One draft wasn't going to fix that defense and he should have been doing it all along. While I love the Clady pick, that #1 for defense is where most thought we should go. Stacking the offense in spite of the defense was going to get us a Dan Fouts/Air Coryell Chargers type team. Once his "Master Plan" for defense comes around, crazy ****s like Brandon Marshall is gone and Guys like Tom Nalen retire. Sorry SoCal but believing that not only was he going to spend toppicks on defense is questionable and if so, that they have a good chance of failing. Add that he wouldnt get rid of Slowick was the nail in his coffin. Hope he does well with Atlas and the RedSkins but I got over him leaving Denver pretty quick.

broncocalijohn
08-14-2011, 09:54 PM
Hey Kaylore, your article that you posted when Shanny hired Slowick was a total eye opener for all Broncos fans and proved it was dead on. It was the article about his greatness of turning the Packers defense into complete ****. The stats for comparison was pure gold and wish Shanny read it before hiring that stiff.
SoCal, if Slowick was good for the job, why ot in 2010 for Shanny in Washington DC?

HAT
08-14-2011, 09:56 PM
SoCal is clearly living in Shantasyland.

Agamemnon
08-14-2011, 09:57 PM
WRONG! I love this argument. "Shanahan was going to fix the defense in the next offseason!"

With what? Draft picks? He's never been able to draft defense.

Free agents? Worse at free agent signing than draft picks easily.

Trades? Possible but with what? What do you give up?

Even if you think he could finally figure it out, as terrible as we were it would have taken the greatest genius of a GM several years to get the pieces into place. It's not like we were going from 16th to 8th. We were at the bottom of the league in every major category. And even if we were able to draft and sign guys, do you honestly believe Slowick was going to put it all together? With his retarded scheme that made any QB we played look godly and couldn't stop the run? You honestly believe he knew how to not just identify, but develop defensive talent.

You're entire post is a big fantasy and a total Shanahomer.

And again, to prove the point, all we need to do is look at the plummet the Redskins took defensively from 2009 to 2010. 10th to 31st for god's sake...

Not a sign of a guy that could turn around a bottom dwelling defense if you ask me.

BroncoMan4ever
08-14-2011, 09:57 PM
"Can you handle the truth? Orton is playing for the money, not love of the Broncos or fans. No matter how well Orton performs this season, do you see Denver giving him a new contract for three years and $30 million? I don't think so. So let's be brutally honest: Orton is a mercenary looking for his next NFL job"




Money is the biggest motivator in the NFL. all the guys say it is for the love of the game, teammates, the franchise and the fans and they are all full of ****, the biggest driving factor in all the players aside from a few is money. if it weren't about the money there would not have been a near 5 month long lockout, the average NFL contract wouldn't be for over a million a year.

just because Orton has said flat out he isn't interested in making the fans love him just makes him more honest than the other 1900 players associated with the NFL.

Archer81
08-14-2011, 09:59 PM
I'm pretty sure Slowick watched alot of Little Giants and decided to base his defenses around stopping the annexation of Puerto Rico...

I love Shanny and what he did for Denver...but some of his choices at D-Coordinator were odd.

:Broncos:

HAT
08-14-2011, 10:03 PM
And again, to prove the point, all we need to do is look at the plummet the Redskins took defensively from 2009 to 2010. 10th to 31st for god's sake...

Not a sign of a guy that could turn around a bottom dwelling defense if you ask me.

And from 21 PPG to 23.6 PPG.

Agamemnon
08-14-2011, 10:05 PM
I'm pretty sure Slowick watched alot of Little Giants and decided to base his defenses around stopping the annexation of Puerto Rico...

I love Shanny and what he did for Denver...but some of his choices at D-Coordinator were odd.

:Broncos:

His choice to change DCs every ****ing year most of all. By the end of his tenure with us I really believe he had poisoned the well on the DC front so that only complete incompetents that couldn't get hired anywhere else were our only choices.

You know kind of like how the Raiders have completely devalued their HC job...

Jason in LA
08-15-2011, 12:56 AM
I don't like Orton, but that's not because he's playing for money rather than fans. That's a rational perspective for him to have. This is simply a business relationship, he puts in his effort in exchange for cash, nothing more and nothing less. While I do have problems with him, its certainly not for his perspective on this issue.

I totally agree with this. I don't like Orton as the Broncos QB because I don't think that he is very good. He's not bad either. He has average written all over him. If the team wants to win right now, he's not the guy to do it. What is he like 4-18 in his last 22 starts? The guy is not a winner and the Broncos aren't going to win with him.

With all that being said, I have no problem with him having an attitude towards Broncos fans. A large part of the fan base has crapped all over him, so why would anybody expect that he feels that he owes any of us anything? I remember reading a post from somebody on this board about Orton not taking the pay cut in Miami, which killed that trade. The poster could not believe that Orton would screw the team, like he was a bad guy for not taking the pay cut to go else where. As much as I'd like to see Orton gone, I have no problem with him looking out for himself. If his best chance to maximize his earning potential is with the contract that the Broncos gave him, then he better do that. He better get as much as he can and not lose money because the fans want him gone.

Seeing that the fans want him gone, nobody should be surprised that he doesn't like us or is not playing for us. We can't crap all over a guy and then expect him to be cool with us. I can't wait until he's gone, but I can understand the position that he's taking.

Miss I.
08-15-2011, 02:27 AM
"Can you handle the truth? Orton is playing for the money, not love of the Broncos or fans. No matter how well Orton performs this season, do you see Denver giving him a new contract for three years and $30 million? I don't think so. So let's be brutally honest: Orton is a mercenary looking for his next NFL job"

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_18678005

good on you. you cut and paste the part you care about in a bunch of opinion letters to Kiz...here's one of the next ones and Kiz's response:

Orton is a classy guy.

"Not too long ago, Denver had a quarterback who threw a full-blown hissy fit, because coach Josh McDaniels was considering a change from Jay Cutler. That forced the trade that brought in Orton. The very next year, Orton was faced with a situation in which McDaniels didn't just consider a new QB, but added Tebow and Brady Quinn. Orton didn't throw a hissy fit, but went out every day and showed why he should be No. 1 on the depth chart. How about dedicating some column space to Orton being a classy guy?"

Jim, John Day, Ore.

Kiz: The Broncos tried to trade Orton to Miami. John Elway and Brian Xanders failed to unload their starting quarterback, same as McDaniels was once unable to trade Cutler for Matt Cassel. What was the fallout? Cutler went ballistic. Orton did not. To borrow a phrase popular around Dove Valley these days, it's nice to know an adult is now playing QB for the Broncos.


Read more: Kickin' it: Let's get real: Orton playing for money, not fans - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_18678005#ixzz1V5VpFRJJ
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

I like Kyle Orton, but I love the Broncos more. What is best for the team may or may not be Orton. I will try to have faith these coaches know how better for form a team. Who knows, but it's possible. Either way, Kyle has largely been someone I am not embarrased is on my team, unlike Cox who is a huge dumbass. Whatever happens with Kyle I wish him well. I just hope we can field a team that wins, but I love them either way.

Cheers from a Scottish Coffee Shop!
Miss I.

Blueflame
08-15-2011, 02:29 AM
WRONG! I love this argument. "Shanahan was going to fix the defense in the next offseason!"

With what? Draft picks? He's never been able to draft defense. Even with the Goodmans. What magically would allow him to not just right, but get virtually all right (which he would have needed as bad as we were) enough to make a significant change?

Free agents? Shanahan was worse at finding free agents than his draft picks easily. Again you're only argument could be "well he was going to get it right this time, all prior behavior and evidence to the contrary."

Trades? Shanahan did very well here, but with what? Picks? That offensive talent you just put together? What do you give up?

Even if you think he could finally figure it out, as terrible as we were it would have taken the greatest genius of a GM several years to get the pieces into place. It's not like we were going from 16th to 8th. We were at the bottom of the league in every major category. And even if we were able to draft and sign guys, do you honestly believe Slowick was going to put it all together? With his retarded scheme that made any QB we played look godly and couldn't stop the run? You honestly believe he knew how to not just identify, but develop defensive talent.

You're entire post is a big fantasy and a total Shanahomer. I think deep down, if any fan looks at the situation objectively they know Shanahan indeed would have tried to "fix the defense that offseason" and would have failed like always did.

Shanahan couldn't possibly have drafted worse than his successor did, however.... the Broncos are a far weaker team going into the 2011 season than we were at the end of the 2008 season.

CEH
08-15-2011, 05:40 AM
Shanahan couldn't possibly have drafted worse than his successor did, however.... the Broncos are a far weaker team going into the 2011 season than we were at the end of the 2008 season.

Joe Eillis wanted Shanny fired. If I knew Eliis was an incompetent bum I would have wanted Shanny to stay and develop the offense. Most top quality playoff teams have one side of the ball truly dominant and the other side adequate. No way in h?ll does Shanny draft any worse than McD. We have been set back 3-4 years with McD.

Kaylore
08-15-2011, 05:46 AM
Shanahan couldn't possibly have drafted worse than his successor did, however.... the Broncos are a far weaker team going into the 2011 season than we were at the end of the 2008 season.
Hiring McDaniels was a bad choice, but that doesn't make firing Shanahan the wrong one. I think ending the relationship with Shanahan was best for both parties. I also firmly believe an intervention was needed, especially when he decided that he was going to stay with Slowik.

CEH
08-15-2011, 05:48 AM
Hiring McDaniels was a bad choice, but that doesn't make firing Shanahan the wrong one. I think ending the relationship with Shanahan was best for both parties. I also firmly believe an intervention was needed, especially when he decided that he was going to stay with Slowik.

How come he didn't make Slovick DC in Washington? Bruce Allen over rode him?

WolfpackGuy
08-15-2011, 06:06 AM
I wanted Spagnuolo with the offensive staff left intact.

Not the mess our team has become due to ANOTHER failed Belicheat disciple.

Drek
08-15-2011, 06:11 AM
Shanahan couldn't possibly have drafted worse than his successor did, however.... the Broncos are a far weaker team going into the 2011 season than we were at the end of the 2008 season.

Its far too early to judge the players McDaniels drafted. With two off-seasons his draft classes have provided us with four of our offensive starters and at least one defensive starter not to mention our nickel and dime CBs.

We didn't have as good a season in 2010 as we did in 2008, but that was an aging team full of journeyman veterans who weren't going to get better. Its entirely possible that with some quality coaching the young talent McDaniels drafted will take off, laying the foundation for what could become a very good team.

Bob's your Information Minister
08-15-2011, 06:29 AM
she works hard for the money

soooooooo hard for the money

she works hard for the money so you better treat her riiiiiiiiight

jhns
08-15-2011, 06:42 AM
Its far too early to judge the players McDaniels drafted. With two off-seasons his draft classes have provided us with four of our offensive starters and at least one defensive starter not to mention our nickel and dime CBs.

We didn't have as good a season in 2010 as we did in 2008, but that was an aging team full of journeyman veterans who weren't going to get better. Its entirely possible that with some quality coaching the young talent McDaniels drafted will take off, laying the foundation for what could become a very good team.

Isn't it only three offensive starters? Walton, Beadles, and Moreno?

Even if it was five starters, he had like 12 picks in the first three rounds. That is not good drafting. Also, starter doesn't mean much on the second worst team in the league. I like some of the potential but those were not good drafts.

CEH
08-15-2011, 06:54 AM
Isn't it only three offensive starters? Walton, Beadles, and Moreno?

Even if it was five starters, he had like 12 picks in the first three rounds. That is not good drafting. Also, starter doesn't mean much on the second worst team in the league. I like some of the potential but those were not good drafts.

I think he is counting Decker. Shanny in '09 at #12 doesn't draft Moreno possibly Orakpo, Cushing or Matthews or maybe even Ayers. Odds are great he selects a defensive player. We don't trade 3 picks for a QB in '10 either. Upgrading the 35 year old Weigman is probably in the cards regardless of regime.

jhns
08-15-2011, 06:58 AM
I think he is counting Decker. Shanny in '09 at #12 doesn't draft Moreno possibly Orakpo, Cushing or Matthews or maybe even Ayers. Odds are great he selects a defensive player. We don't trade 3 picks for a QB in '10 either. Upgrading the 35 year old Weigman is probably in the cards regardless of regime.

Weigman and Hamilton were the only two on offense that needed replaced. Weigman has now shown that he still had a few years left. There is no doubt that he would have focused on defense a lot more over the last couple of years, like McDaniels should have.

Decker is the #3 receiver, not sure why he would be counted as the starter.

tsiguy96
08-15-2011, 06:59 AM
I think he is counting Decker. Shanny in '09 at #12 doesn't draft Moreno possibly Orakpo, Cushing or Matthews or maybe even Ayers. Odds are great he selects a defensive player. We don't trade 3 picks for a QB in '10 either. Upgrading the 35 year old Weigman is probably in the cards regardless of regime.

you cannot sit here and presume what shanahan of all people would and wouldnt do in the draft. mcdaniels acquired the picks for tebow by trading back several times, you can say shanahan woulda done the exact same thing? also cant just assume shanahan would draft one of those 3 guys after the fact because we now know they are good. mcdaniels players are still unproven 3 years later which isnt good, but arguing how a guy who traditionally had poor drafts would magically do better?

jhns
08-15-2011, 07:01 AM
you cannot sit here and presume what shanahan of all people would and wouldnt do in the draft. mcdaniels acquired the picks for tebow by trading back several times, you can say shanahan woulda done the exact same thing? also cant just assume shanahan would draft one of those 3 guys after the fact because we now know they are good. mcdaniels players are still unproven 3 years later which isnt good, but arguing how a guy who traditionally had poor drafts would magically do better?

"Magically do better"

LOL

Someone didn't pay attention to his last few drafts. He was already doing better...

CEH
08-15-2011, 07:08 AM
you cannot sit here and presume what shanahan of all people would and wouldnt do in the draft. mcdaniels acquired the picks for tebow by trading back several times, you can say shanahan woulda done the exact same thing? also cant just assume shanahan would draft one of those 3 guys after the fact because we now know they are good. mcdaniels players are still unproven 3 years later which isnt good, but arguing how a guy who traditionally had poor drafts would magically do better?

So you think he drafts Moreno? If not give me who you think would be the top 5 players at #12. Assume we stay at #12

TheReverend
08-15-2011, 07:08 AM
Champ Bailey? Yes but not drafted. We brought him in because we were getting crushed everytime we faced the Colts. If we are talking drafting, I don't think that is a ringing endorsement for a good defense. While everyone sees a Elvis Doomerville from his later drafts, I see guys that won't change much or pretty much sucked in Karl Paymeh (who I thought would turn out to be a good CB),Jarvin Moss, Tim Crowder and Jack "MF" Williams. He turned over defensive coaches like teams would do with kickers. Larry Coyer has done well in Indianapolis, Jim Bates and Bob Slowick. Bob Slowick sucked so bad in Green Bay that he made them a laughing stock for defense yet Shanny still saw something in that stiff and put him on his staff. If our most talented defenders are still from Shanahan, then we are in more trouble than bringing in guys since then.
Shanny couldnt give a rat's ass about the draft and now I wish Bowlen and Company looked at a defensive coach in 2009. If that is where most of the problem lied, he could have started fresh on that side of the ball.

Crowder was starting in Tampa Bay last season.

Marcus Thomas is starting for Denver and getting rave reviews from Fox and Elway.

D-Will got shot.

Foxworth was signed to a huge contract by a team that must not know defenders... the Ravens.

And Jack Williams was a 4th round pick and nothing more.

Would you like to try again?

WolfpackGuy
08-15-2011, 07:10 AM
So Shanahan would've wheeled and dealed to get Teboz with Cutler on the roster?

LOL

tsiguy96
08-15-2011, 07:15 AM
So you think he drafts Moreno? If not give me who you think would be the top 5 players at #12. Assume we stay at #12

i literally have no idea what shanahan would do. none, i cant even begin to put my self in his shoes especially pre-draft, because now we KNOW who the busts were and who become good/great. we know moreno wouldnt go in the first round if the draft was held over again.

Drek
08-15-2011, 07:15 AM
Weigman and Hamilton were the only two on offense that needed replaced. Weigman has now shown that he still had a few years left. There is no doubt that he would have focused on defense a lot more over the last couple of years, like McDaniels should have.

Decker is the #3 receiver, not sure why he would be counted as the starter.

Because he spends his time with the first string, both in camp and in pre-season games. #3 WR in today's NFL is effectively a starter. Hence why Eddie Royal has been our #3 the last two years but has 22 starts in 30 games despite battling some injuries and having more WR depth behind him than Decker does now.

And again, you're assuming Shanahan would have done something he'd shown no historic proclivity towards. Then you take it one step further by assuming that upon deciding to go down that path make the right selections once on it, which his previous track record also suggests would not have happened.

I'd love a fantasy scenario where Shanahan stayed, fired Slowik, brought in Mike Nolan to run the show, then started putting draft class after draft class into building an elite defense. But that just isn't reality.

TheReverend
08-15-2011, 07:16 AM
So Shanahan would've wheeled and dealed to get Teboz with Cutler on the roster?

LOL

No?

bendog
08-15-2011, 07:22 AM
you cannot sit here and presume what shanahan of all people would and wouldnt do in the draft. mcdaniels acquired the picks for tebow by trading back several times, you can say shanahan woulda done the exact same thing? also cant just assume shanahan would draft one of those 3 guys after the fact because we now know they are good. mcdaniels players are still unproven 3 years later which isnt good, but arguing how a guy who traditionally had poor drafts would magically do better?

Shanny would NOT have drafted Tebow in the first round because he wouldn't have traded CuTLER. Bet on that. Now whether that's a good or bad thing .... time will tell. And, he would have gone defense in the 2009 first round, you can bet on that because he NEVEr spent a one on a rb, and other than oline the offense was fine. Of course he might have skipped Orakpo, traded down and taken ... well, just about anyone on the board besides English has had more success than Ayers. Malcom Jenkins wouldn't have been horrible. But the consensus at the time was that when Buff passed on Orakpo, that was the first whiff in the first round. He was the obvious choice for any team drafting after Buf.

jhns
08-15-2011, 07:35 AM
Because he spends his time with the first string, both in camp and in pre-season games. #3 WR in today's NFL is effectively a starter. Hence why Eddie Royal has been our #3 the last two years but has 22 starts in 30 games despite battling some injuries and having more WR depth behind him than Decker does now.

And again, you're assuming Shanahan would have done something he'd shown no historic proclivity towards. Then you take it one step further by assuming that upon deciding to go down that path make the right selections once on it, which his previous track record also suggests would not have happened.

I'd love a fantasy scenario where Shanahan stayed, fired Slowik, brought in Mike Nolan to run the show, then started putting draft class after draft class into building an elite defense. But that just isn't reality.

Shanahan had decent defenses up until those last three years, where he built the offense... Shanahan had excellent draft classes in his last three years. The bad draft would have been a change from what was happening, not the other way around.

What am I assuming that Shanahan would have done that he had shown no history of doing?

Drek
08-15-2011, 07:51 AM
Shanahan had decent defenses up until those last three years, where he built the offense... Shanahan had excellent draft classes in his last three years. The bad draft would have been a change from what was happening, not the other way around.

What am I assuming that Shanahan would have done that he had shown no history of doing?

2006, good class with only one defensive player of note selected, in the 4th round.

2007, bad draft class where we only came away with 4 players, none have been consistent starters throughout their careers except the lone offensive player selected, who has had injury problems.

2008, good draft class, again focused heavily on offense.

He had two good classes out of three, the only streak with even that much draft success, and it all came when he took almost entirely offensive players.

So where is the history of selecting good defensive talent? Back in 1999.

HAT
08-15-2011, 08:16 AM
So you think he drafts Moreno? If not give me who you think would be the top 5 players at #12. Assume we stay at #12

Shanny's??


Mack
Cushing
Maclin
Jenkins
Harvin

alkemical
08-15-2011, 08:19 AM
Straight Cash Homey - Randy Moss

CEH
08-15-2011, 09:24 AM
Shanny's??


Mack
Cushing
Maclin
Jenkins
Harvin

I think it would be Shanny's MO to build a defense based on having a lead. Similar to Indy with it's two pass rushers. I would add Orakpo to the list to team opposite Doom to provide a pass rush. I do think BMarsh is probably moved either way so maybe the WR make sense. Center makes sense.

*We know a S will not be drafted by Mike

TheReverend
08-15-2011, 09:26 AM
Shanny's??


Mack
Cushing
Maclin
Jenkins
Harvin

Mack HAS to come off that list.

While I don't think he would've taken Maclin or Harvin, it's DEFINITELY a possibility lol. And Orakpo would probably top the list with Jenkins next in line.

HAT
08-15-2011, 09:42 AM
Mack HAS to come off that list.

While I don't think he would've taken Maclin or Harvin, it's DEFINITELY a possibility lol. And Orakpo would probably top the list with Jenkins next in line.

It's all revisionist history at this point but that seems to be where SoCal is living these days.

Mack was on there as bait BTW.

Why does he need to come off the list, exactly?

TheReverend
08-15-2011, 09:46 AM
It's all revisionist history at this point but that seems to be where SoCal is living these days.

Mack was on there as bait BTW.

Why does he need to come off the list, exactly?

1. Weigman had just finished an amazing pro bowl season and Shanny has NEVER drafted a center that high and had zero need to.

2. It IS all revisionist history at this point, but that's one of the things we do here to have something to talk about. Frankly, as I've stated ad nauseum (admittedly), I think we'd be WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY better off had we stayed the course... and looking at where we are now, I find it hard to believe anyone could disagree.

CEH
08-15-2011, 09:56 AM
1. Weigman had just finished an amazing pro bowl season and Shanny has NEVER drafted a center that high and had zero need to.

2. It IS all revisionist history at this point, but that's one of the things we do here to have something to talk about. Frankly, as I've stated ad nauseum (admittedly), I think we'd be WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY better off had we stayed the course... and looking at where we are now, I find it hard to believe anyone could disagree.

I think you would find one poster to disagree with you regarding talent level of '08 vs '11.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=95576

Cito Pelon
08-15-2011, 10:02 AM
Shanny did try to build the D from 1996 onward. The guy tried like crazy to draft D, and FA the D.

Draftees:

Pryce
Tory James
Ken Brown
Phil Yeboah-Codie
Steve Russ
Tony Veland
Darrius Johnson
Mark Campbell
Mobley
Eric Brown
Nate Wayne
Darwin Brown
David Bowens
Chris Watson
Montae Reagor
Al Wilson
Deltha
Ian Gold
Kennoy Kennedy
Jerry Johnson
Middlebrooks
Toviessi
Reggie Hayward
Dorsett Davis
Sam Brandon
Chris Young
Monsanto Pope
Terry Pierce
Nick Eason
Bryant McNeal
Aaron Hunt
Clint Mitchell
D.J.
Jeremy LeSeuer
Jeff Shoate
Darrent Williams
Paymah
Foxworth
Elvis
Jarvis Moss
Marcus Thomas
Jack Williams
Carlton Powell
Josh Barrett

And also the what, 20-30 FA attempts to fix the D? And trying out different DC's? Shanny tried like crazy to build the D, can't fault him for not trying.

HAT
08-15-2011, 10:10 AM
2. It IS all revisionist history at this point, but that's one of the things we do here to have something to talk about. Frankly, as I've stated ad nauseum (admittedly), I think we'd be WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY better off had we stayed the course... and looking at where we are now, I find it hard to believe anyone could disagree.


The reason I disagree is the same reason I favored firing Shanny in 2006-2007.

Your waaaaaaay better off could've been 18-14 over the last 2 years and a first round playoff blowout. Coaches have a shelf life and it was time for a change of scenery. A divorcing couple can always find a few reasons to keep trying. And just because the rebound was a bad ****.....That doesn't mean the divorce was unjustified.

That goes for Shanny too BTW....His redemption will come from a team not named the Redskins.

TheReverend
08-15-2011, 10:14 AM
The reason I disagree is the same reason I favored firing Shanny in 2006-2007.

Your waaaaaaay better off could've been 18-14 over the last 2 years and a first round playoff blowout.

It's not impossible... but instead drafting 2nd overall was a better alternative?

Really?

Coaches have a shelf life and it was time for a change of scenery.

Link? Says who?

A divorcing couple can always find a few reasons to keep trying. And just because the rebound was a bad ****.....That doesn't mean the divorce was unjustified.

That goes for Shanny too BTW....His redemption will come from a team not named the Redskins.

I dunno... PK and Ryan were at Redskins camp yesterday raving about everything from the coaching to the defense to even the QB competition.

Doubt all you want... he's building a contender in Washington with some extremely talented youthful pieces.

baja
08-15-2011, 10:20 AM
"Can you handle the truth? Orton is playing for the money, not love of the Broncos or fans. No matter how well Orton performs this season, do you see Denver giving him a new contract for three years and $30 million? I don't think so. So let's be brutally honest: Orton is a mercenary looking for his next NFL job"

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_18678005

Ha ...and how is that different from every other NFL player?

DrFate
08-15-2011, 10:27 AM
I don't care WHY Orton plays...

I care HOW Orton plays...

epicSocialism4tw
08-15-2011, 10:30 AM
I don't care WHY Orton plays...

I care HOW Orton plays...

He plays extremely well between the 20's when the game is out of hand.

DrFate
08-15-2011, 10:35 AM
He plays extremely well between the 20's when the game is out of hand.

Hey, he was fantasy GOLD last year - once the game was out of reach he and Lloyd would go bananas in the fourth quarter.

Against a prevent defense in a 'the fans are heading to the parking lot' situation, they put up huge fantasy numbers.

alkemical
08-15-2011, 10:36 AM
"I am chaos. I am the substance from which your artists and scientists build rhythms. I am the spirit with which your children and clowns laugh in happy anarchy. I am chaos. I am alive, and I tell you that you are free."
- Eris

epicSocialism4tw
08-15-2011, 10:38 AM
Hey, he was fantasy GOLD last year - once the game was out of reach he and Lloyd would go bananas in the fourth quarter.

Against a prevent defense in a 'the fans are heading to the parking lot' situation, they put up huge fantasy numbers.

So I guess its best to play them against the teams that we're picked to lose against? Ha!

HAT
08-15-2011, 10:45 AM
Link? Says who?



I dunno... PK and Ryan were at Redskins camp yesterday raving about everything from the coaching to the defense to even the QB competition.

Doubt all you want... he's building a contender in Washington with some extremely talented youthful pieces.

Says me. :sunshine:
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=61612&page=18

Not going to harp on today's result or even last weeks b/c my point this entire thread has been the bigger picture.

SB Champ. / Coach / years as coach
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

colts / Dungy / 5th
pitt / Cowher / 13th
NE / Bellicheck / 5th
NE / Bellicheck / 4th
TB / Gruden / 1st
NE / Bellicheck / 2nd
Balt / Billick / 2nd
Stl / Dick4meal / 3rd
Den / Shanny / 4th
Den / Shanny / 3rd
GB / Holmgren / 5th
Dal / Switzer / 2nd
SF / Siefert / 6th
Dal / JJ / 5th
Dal / JJ / 4th
Wash / Gibbs / 11th
NYG / Parcells / 8th
SF / Siefert / 1st
SF / Walsh / 10th

(Got tired of searching after 20 years)

Clearly, it's pretty rare for a 10+ year tenured HC to strike gold....just like it is for a first or second year one. Years 3-6 are the money years.

Makes sense if you think about it. 1st & 2nd year coaches are usually inheriting terrible teams and need time to implement their own brand of football, with personnel of their choosing & to build continuity. (Sans Siefert/Gruden). Long time HC's (9.10,11 + years) have either burntout, lost their ability to motivate or the game has just flat passed them by.

Let's see if Shanny can strike gold in 2008 (his 14th year). I don't care if they win it all, go 1 and done in the PO's or finish 6-10 again.....2008 needs to be his last year.

And just to update the numbers...

2007 Giants / Coughlin / 4th year as HC
2008 Steelers / Tomlin / 2nd year as HC
2009 Saints / Payton / 5th year as HC
2010 Packers / McCarthy / 6th year as HC

I stand by my original premise.

broncocalijohn
08-15-2011, 11:25 AM
Crowder was starting in Tampa Bay last season.

Marcus Thomas is starting for Denver and getting rave reviews from Fox and Elway.

D-Will got shot.

Foxworth was signed to a huge contract by a team that must not know defenders... the Ravens.

And Jack Williams was a 4th round pick and nothing more.

Would you like to try again?

Im sorry but did that add up to a defense that was going to get us to the playoffs? What has any of those players done to warrant a feel good assessment for the playoffs? Crowder production went down in 2010 from 2009. If playing as a starter makes a team "playoff material" then you are going to also tell us about George Foster not being a bust because he was also a starter (oh wait, you did tell us about that one). I don't need to try again. You will apologize for Shanahan to the end even when he considered the defense a 2nd class citizen. He proved it with his drafts and teams. As for Thomas, how many years later until he is getting "rave reviews" from his coach? I hope he is a star for the Broncos this year but no way Shanny gets to be a HC in 2011 waiting for him to develop into a winner. BTW, if all those players turned out to be better when they left the Broncos under Shanny, what does that say about him and his defensive staff?

OABB
08-15-2011, 11:31 AM
Im sorry but did that add up to a defense that was going to get us to the playoffs? What has any of those players done to warrant a feel good assessment for the playoffs? Crowder production went down in 2010 from 2009. If playing as a starter makes a team "playoff material" then you are going to also tell us about George Foster not being a bust because he was also a starter (oh wait, you did tell us about that one). I don't need to try again. You will apologize for Shanahan to the end even when he considered the defense a 2nd class citizen. He proved it with his drafts and teams. As for Thomas, how many years later until he is getting "rave reviews" from his coach? I hope he is a star for the Broncos this year but no way Shanny gets to be a HC in 2011 waiting for him to develop into a winner. BTW, if all those players turned out to be better when they left the Broncos under Shanny, what does that say about him and his defensive staff?

shanny once had our defense in the top 10. if it werent for some minor matchup problems, we would have won the superbowl.

i learned this from med, jhns and the rev.

before their education of me, i though 90 points given up in two straight playoff games was "bad defense". we have a lot to learn.

colonelbeef
08-15-2011, 01:36 PM
I don't like Orton because he is immobile and possesses a mediocre arm, not because he wants money.

errand
08-15-2011, 02:37 PM
All this talk about Shanahan building good defenses...it's funny. Mike always figured the best defense was a good offense..jump out to big lead, make opponents one dimensional and wait for them to make a key mistake and capitalize on it

TheReverend
08-15-2011, 02:42 PM
Im sorry but did that add up to a defense that was going to get us to the playoffs? What has any of those players done to warrant a feel good assessment for the playoffs? Crowder production went down in 2010 from 2009. If playing as a starter makes a team "playoff material" then you are going to also tell us about George Foster not being a bust because he was also a starter (oh wait, you did tell us about that one). I don't need to try again. You will apologize for Shanahan to the end even when he considered the defense a 2nd class citizen. He proved it with his drafts and teams. As for Thomas, how many years later until he is getting "rave reviews" from his coach? I hope he is a star for the Broncos this year but no way Shanny gets to be a HC in 2011 waiting for him to develop into a winner. BTW, if all those players turned out to be better when they left the Broncos under Shanny, what does that say about him and his defensive staff?

I started writing a reply, but point blank: You're too stupid to address this seriously. May God have mercy on your soul.

TheReverend
08-15-2011, 02:51 PM
shanny once had our defense in the top 10. if it werent for some minor matchup problems, we would have won the superbowl.

i learned this from med, jhns and the rev.

before their education of me, i though 90 points given up in two straight playoff games was "bad defense". we have a lot to learn.

Did you know that Indy scored over 40 ****ing points 6 times that year? And average 32.6 points per game? Or that Peyton set an NFL record with room to spare?

It's not like Jason Campbell was the one lighting us up at home for the Raiders.

Oh wait...

broncocalijohn
08-15-2011, 03:06 PM
I started writing a reply, but point blank: You're too stupid to address this seriously. May God have mercy on your soul.

Funny you talk about needing facts for a reply. All you and Shannyites give the realist is make believe opinions. I don't think you can even give us circumstantial evidence on why Shanahan was going to go from 24 and 24 to a playoff team. You do answer back with a quote movie quote without the actual you tube video. So for revs closing argument is if you don't agree with him, you are stupid. You have to wonder why The Reverend is considered a total ass at the Mane. Wear it proud because you earned it.

Mountain Bronco
08-15-2011, 03:43 PM
Says me. :sunshine:
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=61612&page=18



And just to update the numbers...

2007 Giants / Coughlin / 4th year as HC
2008 Steelers / Tomlin / 2nd year as HC
2009 Saints / Payton / 5th year as HC
2010 Packers / McCarthy / 6th year as HC

I stand by my original premise.

It wasn't Grudens 1st year, nor was it bellicheats 2nd year. 1st year with bucs and 2nd year with patriots, but not in overall head coaching years. Your numbers are years as head coach with that team, not overall years, so it doesn't apply to Fox. Hell, he is in his 1st year based on those numbers.

HAT
08-15-2011, 03:49 PM
It wasn't Grudens 1st year, nor was it bellicheats 2nd year. 1st year with bucs and 2nd year with patriots, but not in overall head coaching years. Your numbers are years as head coach with that team, not overall years, so it doesn't apply to Fox. Hell, he is in his 1st year based on those numbers.

Yes....That's the entire premise of my OP from 4 years ago.

TheReverend
08-15-2011, 04:37 PM
Funny you talk about needing facts for a reply. All you and Shannyites give the realist is make believe opinions. I don't think you can even give us circumstantial evidence on why Shanahan was going to go from 24 and 24 to a playoff team. You do answer back with a quote movie quote without the actual you tube video. So for revs closing argument is if you don't agree with him, you are stupid. You have to wonder why The Reverend is considered a total ass at the Mane. Wear it proud because you earned it.

I come here to talk football with a certain group of knowledgeable people.

Spoiler: You're not in that group. Neither is any one else I put down.

As for "Shanny-ites" (way to rip off TGN's already terrible moniker), the wealth of his career is FACTS. 24-24 to a playoff team? We lost a ****ing tie breaker to MISS the playoffs his last season in what was literally the most unhealthy a Broncos team has ever been.

In a 16 year career, there's actually nothing INDICATING we'd be any LESS than a play off team.

Now go back to drooling in your helmet with the other retards I don't give a **** about.

Cito Pelon
08-15-2011, 05:24 PM
I started writing a reply, but point blank: You're too stupid to address this seriously. May God have mercy on your soul.

Like many of your posts, Rev, this goes into the STFU category. You have nothing, but still managed to bleat something.

Dagmar
08-15-2011, 05:27 PM
When you open this thread, given the title, the content is a little different than expected.

TheReverend
08-15-2011, 05:40 PM
When you open this thread, given the title, the content is a little different than expected.

I have no idea what you're talking about


I'm sitting around and watching the clock knowing I have to eat by 8 so I pop open the freezer and grab my individually wrapped chicken (I buy like 10 lbs and then cut it up into roughly 9 oz pieces and zip lock baggie them in the freezer so it's easier to eat healthy). Back to the point, I'm like dinner time?

http://fak3r.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/12/files/challenge_accepted_Amazing_Feats_Fails_WIns_Lolz_a nd_A_Contest-s325x265-158648-535.png

I started by grilling 9-10oz of chicken, and cutting up a sweet onion and green pepper while it grilled. I took 20-25% of the cut up onion and pepper and threw it in a pan just with Olive Oil PAM. Then I took my grilled chicken, cut it up into slices and threw it in the pan with the vegetables. Then as it's sautee-ing together, I hit that **** with some straight up lemon juice, son.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/003/193/1279052383758.jpg?1279054176

Boom, while it's finishing in the pan, I grab a Carb balance tortilla (only 6g of net carbs sucka) and lace that **** up and down with fat free mozzarella cheese. Empty contents of pan into tortilla, nice and warm so it's meltin that cheese. Anyway I take a look at this loaded monstrosity, trying to figure out how I can even fit it in my mouth.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj73/thereverend316/Dinner-1.jpg

Lookin decent so I decide to top it with some chunky pace salsa thinking it's gonna be one of those times where

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/001/253/everything_went_better_than_expected.jpg?125751095 9




























...but then I sit down and taste it. And my life is changed forever.

http://chan.catiewayne.com/m/src/131302732842.jpg

Lev Vyvanse
08-15-2011, 05:49 PM
Throw some fresh cilantro in there next time.