Stock Market Dropping Like a Stone

[Garcia Bronco]

400 point drop....but there is a slight ralley going on.

[TheDave]

Euro debt crisis deepening... descretionary spending and stimulus cut short term... GDP revised numbers... Unemployment numbers tomorrow.

Way too much bad news to expect much else.

[bronco militia]

it's 2008 all over again

[alkemical]

Buy seeds folks.

[TheDave]

it's 2008 all over again

thankfully... not even close, our banks are in a night and day better position than they were in '08

[SonOfLe-loLang]

this is what happens when we act like children

[TheElusiveKyleOrton]

Orton's fault!

if the Broncos start Tebow, this wouldn't happen.

[TheReverend]

Euro debt crisis deepening... descretionary spending and stimulus cut short term... GDP revised numbers... Unemployment numbers tomorrow.

Way too much bad news to expect much else.

You forgot partisan squibling of the debt ceiling leading into this, and it's effect as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[RhymesayersDU]

I knew Orton being named starter would be bad.

EDIT: Damn you, TEKO!

[TheReverend]

Orton's fault!

if the Broncos start Tebow, this wouldn't happen.

Really, dude?

[Agamemnon]

I didn't think 400 points was that big a drop...

[Garcia Bronco]

thankfully... not even close, our banks are in a night and day better position than they were in '08

I am staying in for now...I have a total stop loss.

[Garcia Bronco]

I didn't think 400 points was that big a drop...

That's just today. It's been dropping everyday for the past two weeks except yesterday. We're looking at a 3rd or 4th, 5 percent market drop this year.

[Mediator12]

Strong Countries are lenders, not borrowers ;D

This whole debt thing just tells me that WAS is addicted to spending and not strong enough to do what is right for the country no matter how painful it will be in the short term. Washington is like a dead plant that never got pruned so it could grow right. The dead part killed the living.....

[TheElusiveKyleOrton]

Really, dude?

You don't have a sense of humor?

[bendog]

thankfully... not even close, our banks are in a night and day better position than they were in '08

The damn well better be what with all the money Big Banker Ben poured into them

[TheReverend]

You don't have a sense of humor?

About losing this much money?

No. Not in the slightest.

[Bronco Yoda]

Uncertainty in the market is the biggest killer of all. It's going to be a real bumpy ride until the gang of twelve finally hammer out a deal.... or not. Which will then trigger automatic cuts across the board.

This is the price for not enough cuts... not enough revenue... lack of leadership....too much political ideology gumming up an already stalling machine.

The Dems are driving with a blindfold on. The Repubs want to crash the bus so they can drive next... and the crazy ass tea party simply want to drive us all off the cliff. Apparently they have magical parachutes the rest of us were not issued.

[alkemical]

About losing this much money?

No. Not in the slightest.


Just wait till they pass some debt tax and start allocating "resources" to each citizen to pay off their part of the debt.

[Kaylore]

TEKO hasn't accused the author of being an attention whore yet? Why?

[That One Guy]

Uncertainty in the market is the biggest killer of all. It's going to be a real bumpy ride until the gang of twelve finally hammer out a deal.... or not. Which will then trigger automatic cuts across the board.

This is the price for not enough cuts... not enough revenue... lack of leadership....too much political ideology gumming up an already stalling machine.

The Dems are driving with a blindfold on. The Repubs want to crash the bus so they can drive next... and the crazy ass tea party simply want to drive us all off the cliff. Apparently they have magical parachutes the rest of us were not issued.

LOL

Excellent summary.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

Uncertainty in the market is the biggest killer of all. It's going to be a real bumpy ride until the gang of twelve finally hammer out a deal.... or not. Which will then trigger automatic cuts across the board.

This is the price for not enough cuts... not enough revenue... lack of leadership....too much political ideology gumming up an already stalling machine.

The Dems are driving with a blindfold on. The Repubs want to crash the bus so they can drive next... and the crazy ass tea party simply want to drive us all off the cliff. Apparently they have magical parachutes the rest of us were not issued.

Pretty much

[TheElusiveKyleOrton]

TEKO hasn't accused the author of being an attention whore yet? Why?

Why would I? This seems like a perfectly reasonable thread.

Is something else on your mind, Kaylore?

[TheDave]

Uncertainty in the market is the biggest killer of all. It's going to be a real bumpy ride until the gang of twelve finally hammer out a deal.... or not. Which will then trigger automatic cuts across the board.

This is the price for not enough cuts... not enough revenue... lack of leadership....too much political ideology gumming up an already stalling machine.

The Dems are driving with a blindfold on. The Repubs want to crash the bus so they can drive next... and the crazy ass tea party simply want to drive us all off the cliff. Apparently they have magical parachutes the rest of us were not issued.

I agree... the only change I would make is "not enogh cuts" change to "the wrong cuts". Entitlement Reform (along with some defense cuts) was needed not short term discretionary spending... especially during a looooong recession.

Everyone of these guys should be strung up for financial treason.

[Garcia Bronco]

About losing this much money?

No. Not in the slightest.

I've lost a pretty good chuck of money.

[BMF Bronco]

Why would I? This seems like a perfectly reasonable thread.

Is something else on your mind, Kaylore?

No, it's K's way of calling you a douche.

[TheElusiveKyleOrton]

No, it's K's way of calling you a douche.

Hmmm.

So if I called the OP an attention whore, I'd be less of a douche?

You make no sense, man. You should probably disappear again.

[TheDave]

By the way I can't believe this has lasted an entire 27 posts without a single person blaming a particular political party.

[Agamemnon]

I agree... the only change I would make is "not enogh cuts" change to "the wrong cuts". Entitlement Reform (along with some defense cuts) was needed not short term discretionary spending... especially during a looooong recession.

Everyone of these guys should be strung up for financial treason.

And there's that whole thing with the Bush Tax cuts not being repealed. When those were first passed, that was when the debt really started spinning out of control as I recall.

[Mediator12]

By the way I can't believe this has lasted an entire 27 posts without a single person blaming a particular political party.

Well, that is because both sides ARE at fault! However, I believe every american who owes thousands in debt are just as much to blame as any political party.

[baja]

Tickets? The ride is starting. Tickets please.

[Agamemnon]

By the way I can't believe this has lasted an entire 27 posts without a single person blaming a particular political party.

Maybe people are coming to terms with the fact that they are both guilty? Maybe? Hilarious!

[baja]

When do they devalue the dollar?

[TheDave]

Well, that is because both sides ARE at fault! However, I believe every american who owes thousands in debt are just as much to blame as any political party.

Both sides have been at fault more times than not in my life time... never stoped people from pointing their finger in the past.

[Agamemnon]

Well, that is because both sides ARE at fault! However, I believe every american who owes thousands in debt are just as much to blame as any political party.

I assume you aren't including mortgages in that statement. Not sure how many people could ever own a house if they couldn't finance it.

[TheDave]

When do they devalue the dollar?

Probably shouldn't ask this... but... who are "They"?

[TheReverend]

I've lost a pretty good chuck of money.

The past two weeks have been brutal for me.

What's worst? Had a GREAT Q2 conference call and have lost ALL of the momentum I should've ridden from that thanks to this bull****.

I'm irate.

[DarkHorse30]

Strong Countries are lenders, not borrowers ;D

This whole debt thing just tells me that WAS is addicted to spending and not strong enough to do what is right for the country no matter how painful it will be in the short term. Washington is like a dead plant that never got pruned so it could grow right. The dead part killed the living.....

Term limits. Give them liberty or....well you know :sunshine:

[BMF Bronco]

Hmmm.

So if I called the OP an attention whore, I'd be less of a douche?

You make no sense, man. You should probably disappear again.

Disappear huh, so the brilliance that is you can shine? NO, I don't think that will happen. I am saying Kaylore is too kind to outright call anyone anything other than nice, thus we have to translate it for you. It's called sarcasm, not sure if you're quite versed in it yet, but if you're going to call him, myself and others that know this board out, you might want to look it up.

[Mediator12]

I assume you aren't including mortgages in that statement. Not sure how many people could ever own a house if they couldn't finance it.

Mortgages are only debt if you can not sell your house for more than you have remaining on the loan, especially if you paid 10% down. You lose equity that way, but you no longer OWE on that house as debt.

BTW, I own both cars outright and have still about 60K in equity on my house at this point 4 years in. My wife and I do not believe in personal debt at all. Never had a credit card balance either.

[Kaylore]

Why would I? This seems like a perfectly reasonable thread.

Is something else on your mind, Kaylore?

I don't know. I started a thread about the economy sucking and you said I was attention whoring. What changed?

[bendog]

Probably shouldn't ask this... but... who are "They"?

I think Big Banker Ben the Bernake has been at it for some time, what with Quantatative Easing I, II and now III, while the German central bank has been more or less propping up the euro. We are so ****ed. Not necessary by Big Ben the Banker as with the housing market bubble and the personal debt people have from taking out home equity to go to disney world or buy an ATV.

[chadta]

not being an investor im not following how much money what little i have put away has lost, but i do drive alot, so i am following and have been following oil and gas futures, both of which lost 6% today, now if it was on the way up, i would expect to see a 7% rise in pump prices tonight, but on the way down, i figure i will be lucky to see a 3% drop.

Not a huge deal but my tank is empty, and i will save 10 bucks if i fill up tommorrow on my way to work.

[Agamemnon]

Mortgages are only debt if you can not sell your house for more than you have remaining on the loan, especially if you paid 10% down. You lose equity that way, but you no longer OWE on that house as debt.

BTW, I own both cars outright and have still about 60K in equity on my house at this point 4 years in. My wife and I do not believe in personal debt at all. Never had a credit card balance either.

Okay. I figured as much. Just thought I'd ask for a clarification.

[broncocalijohn]

I didn't think 400 points was that big a drop...

Then you dont follow the stock market. I did see that oil went to about $87 before I turned off the TV. That is what? $8 to $10 off of the beginning of the week?

9 of the last 10 days of negative. Not good at all.

[TheElusiveKyleOrton]

I don't know. I started a thread about the economy sucking and you said I was attention whoring. What changed?

That's fair. Perhaps I was so burned out on epicFAIL's main-board nonsense, and now I'm burned out on MacGoober's main-board nonsense.

It's all relative.

THE OP IS A DRAMA QUEEN!

Better? Consistency is better.

[TheDave]

I think Big Banker Ben the Bernake has been at it for some time, what with Quantatative Easing I, II and now III, while the German central bank has been more or less propping up the euro. We are so ****ed. Not necessary by Big Ben the Banker as with the housing market bubble and the personal debt people have from taking out home equity to go to disney world or buy an ATV.

I agree that QE I, II drove the dollar down... it also held treasuries steady at a time when things could have imploded. I don't agee with everything Bernake did but I also credit him with saving us from falling off a cliff in 2008.

The banks had their heads so far up their ass back then we were in much more dire straights than I had ever imagined.

P.s. 500 pts and still moving... WOW!

[TheElusiveKyleOrton]

Then you dont follow the stock market. I did see that oil went to about $87 before I turned off the TV. That is what? $8 to $10 off of the beginning of the week?

Yeah, around there.

I'm definitely losing my shirt in my oil stocks.

[bendog]

I agree that QE I, II drove the dollar down... it also held treasuries steady at a time when things could have imploded. I don't agee with everything Bernake did but I also credit him with saving us from falling off a cliff in 2008.

The banks had their heads so far up their ass back then we were in much more dire straights than I had ever imagined.

Agreed. I know who I'd like to sack punch, but don't care to go political.

[broncocalijohn]

Yeah, around there.

I'm definitely losing my shirt in my oil stocks.

Good news is I can fill my Corolla up for about $2 cheaper next time. I would like to see sub $3.50 in OC sometime soon.

[Agamemnon]

Then you dont follow the stock market. I did see that oil went to about $87 before I turned off the TV. That is what? $8 to $10 off of the beginning of the week?

Nope, I don't but a 3% drop, or whatever it is wouldn't seem like a massive drop to me. But yeah I'm not an investor, so I really have no idea what is considered a normal drop.

[Meck77]

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=59563&page=2&highlight=stock+market

Locked in gains on May 8th, 2011.

I never try to time the bottom or top but take a middle path approach. I'll trickle back in later.

Silver's had a nice pull back if you want something tangible and want to ride the 40 to 1 ratio on gold.

[Dutch]

Mortgages are only debt if you can not sell your house for more than you have remaining on the loan, especially if you paid 10% down. You lose equity that way, but you no longer OWE on that house as debt.

BTW, I own both cars outright and have still about 60K in equity on my house at this point 4 years in. My wife and I do not believe in personal debt at all. Never had a credit card balance either.

This^^^ Nice to know my Wife and I aren't alone. We also made sure we could afford our home on one salary (this was 15 years ago).
Both cars payed off and house paid off in 15 years. Much of it on 1 salary.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Uncertainty in the market is the biggest killer of all. It's going to be a real bumpy ride until the gang of twelve finally hammer out a deal.... or not. Which will then trigger automatic cuts across the board.

This is the price for not enough cuts... not enough revenue... lack of leadership....too much political ideology gumming up an already stalling machine.

The Dems are driving with a blindfold on. The Repubs want to crash the bus so they can drive next... and the crazy ass tea party simply want to drive us all off the cliff. Apparently they have magical parachutes the rest of us were not issued.

The Tea Party platform: cut spending, balance the budget.

Yep...that's crazy, alright. Crazy if you're a trophy wife on the loose.

[baja]

Probably shouldn't ask this... but... who are "They"?

If you probably shouldn't ask I probably shouldn't answer.

[TheElusiveKyleOrton]

If you probably shouldn't ask I probably shouldn't answer.

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/dSpOjj4YD8c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[sirhcyennek81]

When do they devalue the dollar?


What do you mean when?


:Broncos:

[Agamemnon]

The Tea Party platform: cut spending, balance the budget.

Yep...that's crazy, alright. Crazy if you're a trophy wife on the loose.

The problem being that they want to cut spending on virtually everything other than bombs and guns. That and they are adamantly opposed to repealing the Bush tax cuts that sent the debt problem skyrocketing in the first place.

[sirhcyennek81]

Nope, I don't but a 3% drop, or whatever it is wouldn't seem like a massive drop to me. But yeah I'm not an investor, so I really have no idea what is considered a normal drop.


The entire year's worth of gains has been wiped out in the last 10 days of trading. That is a pretty major drop. It might be a correction but it seems like a clarion call that the economy is in recession...or possibly we pretended the last one ended.

:Broncos:

[enjolras]

Agreed. I know who I'd like to sack punch, but don't care to go political.

It's simple: Sack-punch every single American who has made abortion (on both sides) a dominant political issue. Washington is FILLED with intellectual midgets. Hell the dumbest are the ones in charge. Look at Michelle Bachmann (in heavy contention for the damn presidential nomination), Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and the rest. These aren't intellectual giants by any stretch. They are petty leeches who simply fall on the right side of a particular issue or subscribe to a particular religion (or dogma at the least).

Meanwhile the people who *do* things and *make* things are completely left out of the political process. You want to fix Washington? First we have to fix ourselves. Different political views are fine. Differing ideas about how to allocate resources (and how much to collect) are natural. Electing idiots who don't even fully grasp the most basic ideas of what they are fighting over? That's inexcusable.

When we started making moral standing a key political issue we lost our way. The entire electoral process is about having candidates lives scoured for dirt, and then like the morons that our electorate has become, we discard our *best* candidates for the ones who have lived lives so meaningless that they've never done anything wrong (that anyone knows about yet).

I wish I could say I was optimistic about the future of this country. I'm not. The American people are too collectively obsessed with all of the wrong things. I'm not sure we'll get lucky enough to elect anyone who can find our way out.

[Pony Boy]

I've lost a pretty good chuck of money.

You have lost anything if you haven't sold anything ........... ride it out and you should be buying in the morning.

[sirhcyennek81]

The problem being that they want to cut spending on virtually everything other than bombs and guns. That and they are adamantly opposed to repealing the Bush tax cuts that sent the debt problem skyrocketing in the first place.


Tax cuts did not cause the debt crisis. Even if the tax cuts never happened, the US would still be having debt issues. We spend too much, that is the problem.

:Broncos:

[kappys]

You have lost anything if you haven't sold anything ........... ride it out and you should be buying in the morning.

You think? Just moved some more cash into my brokerage account but I probably won't have it until the end of the day tomorrow. I did pretty well on the last go around in 2009 - i have a lot more to play with this time though.

[broncocalijohn]

This^^^ Nice to know my Wife and I aren't alone. We also made sure we could afford our home on one salary (this was 15 years ago).
Both cars payed off and house paid off in 15 years. Much of it on 1 salary.

I feel like many of the blue hairs with Equity rich and cash poor. Best thing for many is to look into re-financing your mortgage. I owed only 6.5 years on my home of about $80k (house worth about $600k). I had an equity line for 22 years more ($1000 payment). Combined payments was a little over $2k a month. 10 year loan putting both together at 3.69% (I believe that is what it was-we closed last week). Save over $400 a month and I will be only 51 when it is paid off. Unfortunately, I have had to survive on credit cards for my business and have that ****ing thing up to $25k. Could not get that onto the other loan or I would be styling.

[TheElusiveKyleOrton]

Tax cuts did not cause the debt crisis. Even if the tax cuts never happened, the US would still be having debt issues. We spend too much, that is the problem.

:Broncos:

Debt issues, yes. MASSIVE debt issues? Not nearly on this scale.

[TheElusiveKyleOrton]

It's simple: Sack-punch every single American who has made abortion (on both sides) a dominant political issue. Washington is FILLED with intellectual midgets. Hell the dumbest are the ones in charge. Look at Michelle Bachmann (in heavy contention for the damn presidential nomination), Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and the rest. These aren't intellectual giants by any stretch. They are petty leeches who simply fall on the right side of a particular issue or subscribe to a particular religion (or dogma at the least).

Meanwhile the people who *do* things and *make* things are completely left out of the political process. You want to fix Washington? First we have to fix ourselves. Different political views are fine. Differing ideas about how to allocate resources (and how much to collect) are natural. Electing idiots who don't even fully grasp the most basic ideas of what they are fighting over? That's inexcusable.

When we started making moral standing a key political issue we lost our way. The entire electoral process is about having candidates lives scoured for dirt, and then like the morons that our electorate has become, we discard our *best* candidates for the ones who have lived lives so meaningless that they've never done anything wrong (that anyone knows about yet).

I wish I could say I was optimistic about the future of this country. I'm not. The American people are too collectively obsessed with all of the wrong things. I'm not sure we'll get lucky enough to elect anyone who can find our way out.

Great ****in' post.

[Cito Pelon]

Man, the Tea Party really got this thing turned around, eh?

J/K, no telling what's gonna happen, their far right goofiness could work, but more likely a moderate solution is the best way to go.

[baja]

11,383.68
-512.76 (-4.31%)
Aug 4 - Close

[baja]

http://www.kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/Broadcast/Entries/2011/8/3_Gerald_Celente_files/Gerald%20Celente%20%208%3A3%3A2011.mp3

[enjolras]

Tax cuts did not cause the debt crisis. Even if the tax cuts never happened, the US would still be having debt issues. We spend too much, that is the problem.

:Broncos:

It certainly exacerbated it. The debt crisis was long in the making, cutting taxes (on the people who can most afford to pay it no less) as it got worse was never the right idea.

That doesn't matter, however. What matters is how we fix it, and the simple reality is that we'll NEVER fix our debt problems without deep cuts across the board AND raising revenues.

It's going to be painful for everyone, but it has to be done. It should be done right this instant.

We need to desperately cut back our military spending. We need to drastically reduce bureaucratic spending. Do all of that and we can fix this mess.

[Pony Boy]

You think? Just moved some more cash into my brokerage account but I probably won't have it until the end of the day tomorrow. I did pretty well on the last go around in 2009 - i have a lot more to play with this time though.

I said buy in the morning but what I mean is wait and see how far it falls, the end of the day tomorrow might be best or even next week.

[sirhcyennek81]

It's simple: Sack-punch every single American who has made abortion (on both sides) a dominant political issue. Washington is FILLED with intellectual midgets. Hell the dumbest are the ones in charge. Look at Michelle Bachmann (in heavy contention for the damn presidential nomination), Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and the rest. These aren't intellectual giants by any stretch. They are petty leeches who simply fall on the right side of a particular issue or subscribe to a particular religion (or dogma at the least).

Meanwhile the people who *do* things and *make* things are completely left out of the political process. You want to fix Washington? First we have to fix ourselves. Different political views are fine. Differing ideas about how to allocate resources (and how much to collect) are natural. Electing idiots who don't even fully grasp the most basic ideas of what they are fighting over? That's inexcusable.

When we started making moral standing a key political issue we lost our way. The entire electoral process is about having candidates lives scoured for dirt, and then like the morons that our electorate has become, we discard our *best* candidates for the ones who have lived lives so meaningless that they've never done anything wrong (that anyone knows about yet).

I wish I could say I was optimistic about the future of this country. I'm not. The American people are too collectively obsessed with all of the wrong things. I'm not sure we'll get lucky enough to elect anyone who can find our way out.


I take the contrary opinion that politicians are stupid. Most of them are pretty smart people. The issue is when politicians begin to taylor national spending to specific special interest groups. You can cry big oil or big pharma or big whatever the F but that is not what I mean by special interests. You have literally a million groups with small minorities of people pushing for spending on whatever pet project they hold near and dear.

Then you add US obligations on top of that, like social security, medicare/medicaid, defense spending, treaty obligations and international aid. Washington DC has had a spending issue since "the great society" nonsense of LBJ. Its gotten worse the last 10 years. The last two presidents have signed spending bills that more than equal the previous 42 presidents have combined...thats just total redonkulousness.

That is the reason I want a balanced budget amendment to the constitution.

:Broncos:

[TheDave]

You have lost anything if you haven't sold anything ........... ride it out and you should be buying in the morning.

Until Europe figures their mess out I wouldn't touch anything that has ANY exposure to that side of the world.

Greece and Italy are one thing, but whith Spain and France now joing the mix things could get BRUTAL. Those 2 will easily pull Germany down with them.

What a mess...

[sirhcyennek81]

It certainly exacerbated it. The debt crisis was long in the making, cutting taxes (on the people who can most afford to pay it no less) as it got worse was never the right idea.

That doesn't matter, however. What matters is how we fix it, and the simple reality is that we'll NEVER fix our debt problems without deep cuts across the board AND raising revenues.

It's going to be painful for everyone, but it has to be done. It should be done right this instant.

We need to desperately cut back our military spending. We need to drastically reduce bureaucratic spending. Do all of that and we can fix this mess.

On a tax base trying to recover from "the worst recession since recessions came into existance". Cuts first. When the economy improves, then raise taxes if you have to. But when you take in 2 trillion dollars a year in tax revenue and spend 3.5 trillion, taxes will really have to go up to cover the difference. Our wealthy can't close that gap, nor should they. We all live here, dont we?

:Broncos:

[Chris]

It's simple: Sack-punch every single American who has made abortion (on both sides) a dominant political issue. Washington is FILLED with intellectual midgets. Hell the dumbest are the ones in charge. Look at Michelle Bachmann (in heavy contention for the damn presidential nomination), Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and the rest. These aren't intellectual giants by any stretch. They are petty leeches who simply fall on the right side of a particular issue or subscribe to a particular religion (or dogma at the least).

Meanwhile the people who *do* things and *make* things are completely left out of the political process. You want to fix Washington? First we have to fix ourselves. Different political views are fine. Differing ideas about how to allocate resources (and how much to collect) are natural. Electing idiots who don't even fully grasp the most basic ideas of what they are fighting over? That's inexcusable.

When we started making moral standing a key political issue we lost our way. The entire electoral process is about having candidates lives scoured for dirt, and then like the morons that our electorate has become, we discard our *best* candidates for the ones who have lived lives so meaningless that they've never done anything wrong (that anyone knows about yet).

I wish I could say I was optimistic about the future of this country. I'm not. The American people are too collectively obsessed with all of the wrong things. I'm not sure we'll get lucky enough to elect anyone who can find our way out.

The problem is the lack of objectivity of the media in this country. Extremist ideologues are driving the debate over bull****, riling people up while ignoring the things that really matter to all of us, regardless of political views.

[sirhcyennek81]

Until Europe figures their mess out I wouldn't touch anything that has ANY exposure to that side of the world.

Greece and Italy are one thing whit Spain and Francenow joing the mix things could get BRUTAL. Those 2 will easily pull Germany down with them.

What a mess...


Portugal and Ireland, too.

:Broncos:

[TheDave]

Portugal and Ireland, too.

:Broncos:

Absolutely I just skipped them because of their size... The spain/France problems scare the hell out of me.

[sirhcyennek81]

Absolutely I just skipped them because of their size... The spain/France problems scare the hell out of me.


Actually any member economy in the EU is in trouble. 27 nations with coming economic hell. Not good.


:Broncos:

[TheReverend]

Absolutely I just skipped them because of their size...

Letting your wife post from your account now?

[TheDave]

Actually any member economy in the EU is in trouble. 27 nations with coming economic hell. Not good.


:Broncos:

Absoultely that is the problem with tying a bunch of small boats together in calm seas it gives you greater stability. Problem is in rough seas one ship sinking pull everyone down with it.

and the German banks are the rope holding everyone together.

[enjolras]

On a tax base trying to recover from "the worst recession since recessions came into existance". Cuts first. When the economy improves, then raise taxes if you have to. But when you take in 2 trillion dollars a year in tax revenue and spend 3.5 trillion, taxes will really have to go up to cover the difference. Our wealthy can't close that gap, nor should they. We all live here, dont we?

:Broncos:

No one is talking about raising taxes on those who have been deeply effected by the recession. We're talking about expiring the Bush tax cuts which only effect those making more than $250k a year (and then only apply to dollars beyond $250k).

[TheReverend]

Closed down over 500 pts!

Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yy

Re-elect everyone!

[TheDave]

Letting your wife post from your account now?

I like you, so I'm giving a charitable lol...

but I expect more, especially in such a target rich environment. ;D

[Bronco Yoda]

I agree... the only change I would make is "not enogh cuts" change to "the wrong cuts". Entitlement Reform (along with some defense cuts) was needed not short term discretionary spending... especially during a looooong recession.

Everyone of these guys should be strung up for financial treason.

good point. well said

[TheDave]

Closed down over 500 pts!

Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yy

Re-elect everyone!

and ironically everyone of these SOB's is on break until labor day.

[Pony Boy]

Until Europe figures their mess out I wouldn't touch anything that has ANY exposure to that side of the world.

Greece and Italy are one thing, but whith Spain and France now joing the mix things could get BRUTAL. Those 2 will easily pull Germany down with them.

What a mess...

I totally agree and people here are starting to panic with all the talk about the possible downgrade of the credit rating but there are great companies in the US that are rock solid investments in any economy and anytime you can buy in at bargain basement prices, it's a no brainer.

[sirhcyennek81]

Closed down over 500 pts!

Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yy

Re-elect everyone!


Term limits on everyone would be good, too. 8 years for the prez (check), 10 for the house, 12 for senators...any more than that and its just silly.

:Broncos:

[WolfpackGuy]

You have lost anything if you haven't sold anything ........... ride it out and you should be buying in the morning.

Agreed.

It's not lost money if you don't cash out.

I'm tired of hearing the people who sell off, then cry when the rebound hits.

If more people would ride the fluctuations out, we wouldn't have such wild swings.

[TheDave]

Term limits on everyone would be good, too. 8 years for the prez, 10 for the house, 12 for senators...any more than that and its just silly.

:Broncos:

When it costs millions to run for office I'm not sure term limits even matter. By the time these jackasses get in there they are already bought and paid for.

Some how, some way we have to figure out how to limit the big money influence.

[baja]

Agreed.

It's not lost money if you don't cash out.

I'm tired of hearing the people who sell off, then cry when the rebound hits.

If more people would ride the fluctuations out, we wouldn't have such wild swings.

Did it ever occur to you that these 'wild swings" are orchestrated for profit by wall street insiders.

[gtown]

Uncertainty in the market is the biggest killer of all. It's going to be a real bumpy ride until the gang of twelve finally hammer out a deal.... or not. Which will then trigger automatic cuts across the board.

This is the price for not enough cuts... not enough revenue... lack of leadership....too much political ideology gumming up an already stalling machine.

The Dems are driving with a blindfold on. The Repubs want to crash the bus so they can drive next... and the crazy ass tea party simply want to drive us all off the cliff. Apparently they have magical parachutes the rest of us were not issued.

Never quite heard it this way, but this is true. Blind, opportunistic, and bat**** crazy in that order.

[TheDave]

I totally agree and people here are starting to panic with all the talk about the possible downgrade of the credit rating but there are great companies in the US that are rock solid investments in any economy and anytime you can buy in at bargain basement prices, it's a no brainer.

Absolutely there are... as long as you are in a buy and hold place financially then yes there will be several excellent opportunities in the coming days.

[sirhcyennek81]

When it costs millions to run for office I'm not sure term limits even matter. By the time these jackasses get in there they are already bought and paid for.

Some how, some way we have to figure out how to limit the big money influence.


I think the longer someone is in government, the wider the disconnect is between where they are and reality. I'd also be for restricting or abolishing lobbiests (sp), which I think is the reason so much money gets poured into re-election campaigns. The lobbiests know which guys push their particular agendas, it would be more expensive to find out if the new guy is or is not for you.

:Broncos:

[Pony Boy]

There are times when a stock market correction has nothing to do with the political atmosphere but the timing of the market manipulation is well timed to make it look so.

[TheDave]

Did it ever occur to you that these 'wild swings" are orchestrated for profit by wall street insiders.

Do you always look for the conspiracy?

I don't discount that individual ups and downs on specific stocks or commodities can be the cause of market manipulation.

But 500+ pt sell offs that attack everything are to big for any group of conspirators.

[cutthemdown]

The economy is going Jimmy Carter on Obama. His approval rating is like 40%? Congressional approval like what 25% lol. I think Romney will have a good chance because he's not in Congress and not the President. We need to cut regulations, environmental ones especially, to get growth going on. Just like how they are opening back up that one rare earth mineral mines, but it will take 2 yrs to produce ore because of environmental hurdles.

Let's face it you can't fix this by eliminating the Bush Tax cuts. That isn't the reason for the stagnant growth.

[WolfpackGuy]

Did it ever occur to you that these 'wild swings" are orchestrated for profit by wall street insiders.

Aren't they all?

LOL

[baja]

When it costs millions to run for office I'm not sure term limits even matter. By the time these jackasses get in there they are already bought and paid for.

Some how, some way we have to figure out how to limit the big money influence.

Do you realize you are seeing things unfolding that you ridiculed me for warning you about only a few short years ago?

Please tell me your plan to fix this mess.


Revolution has been suggested (by Jefferson)

To me it looks like our leaders (banking, industry and government) have painted all the rest of us into a corner with no way out.

Sometimes you have to start over and that is what I have been saying for years. There is no way to fix this. The model is unsustainable.

Fiat Money has reached it's unavoidable end. The greatest Ponzi scheme the world has ever known is over.

Continue with your smug shell game solutions (term limits etc) but while you are at it call Nero and see if he will tune your fiddle.

[epicSocialism4tw]

The problem being that they want to cut spending on virtually everything other than bombs and guns. That and they are adamantly opposed to repealing the Bush tax cuts that sent the debt problem skyrocketing in the first place.

That's not true at all. That's just a myth perpetuated by propaganda from the big spending politicians that are afraid that the Tea Party is coming after their wallets.

The Fed Gov. absolutely needs to be cut back and streamlined. Its a necessity at this point. Its not just a partisan idea. Its realilty.

[chadta]

Then you dont follow the stock market. I did see that oil went to about $87 before I turned off the TV. That is what? $8 to $10 off of the beginning of the week?

9 of the last 10 days of negative. Not good at all.

with exchange oil is 84 bucks a barrel CDN, last time it was that low gas was 1.10 per liter, 3.8 liters per gallon. right now gas is 1.27 per liter, at midnight its going down to 1.23

[TheDave]

Do you realize you are seeing things unfolding that you ridiculed me for warning you about only a few short years ago?

Please tell me your plan to fix this mess.


Revolution has been suggested (by Jefferson)

To me it looks like our leaders (banking, industry and government) have painted all the rest of us into a corner with no way out.

Sometimes you have to start over and that is what I have been saying for years. There is no way to fix this. The model is unsustainable.

Fiat Money has reached it's unavoidable end. The greatest Ponzi scheme the world has ever known is over.

Continue with your smug shell game solutions (term limits etc) but while you are at it call Nero and see if he will tune your fiddle.

There you go again saying "I told you so"

No... you told me that Armageddon was coming and that soon "They" would release "The Virus"

Well considering 4 years later we are still able to bicker about this stuff on our favorite NFL message board... well... obviously you and I have a radically different definition of the word "Armageddon"

And please stop with the "Fiat Money has reached it's unavoidable end." the world isn't going back to a barter system, no matter how strong your delusions are.

God I forgot just how nuts you really are.

[epicSocialism4tw]

There you go again saying "I told you so"

No... you told me that Armageddon was coming and that soon "They" would release "The Virus"

Well considering 4 years later we are still able to bicker about this stuff on our favorite NFL message board... well... obviously you and I have a radically different definition of the word "Armageddon"

And please stop with the "Fiat Money has reached it's unavoidable end." the world isn't going back to a barter system, no matter how strong your delusions are.

God I forgot just how nuts you really are.

http://www.wired.com/images/article/magazine/1705/st_hotseat_f.jpg

[That One Guy]

Well, I don't have near the money anyone else has but I still don't want to look at my account and see what the last two weeks has done to me.

Lets just hope things get better.

Has anyone else ever caught themselves hoping for something and knowing that it's not going to happen at the same time?

[baja]

Do you always look for the conspiracy?

I don't discount that individual ups and downs on specific stocks or commodities can be the cause of market manipulation.

But 500+ pt sell offs that attack everything are to big for any group of conspirators.


It's not that I always look for conspiracies. It's that I think the only explanation for all the head scratching things going on in the world have a common denominator. and that is a meticulous , long planned series of events designed to instill control by the few over the unwashed many for their own good. Depopulation being their major theme.

I know I'm nuts right?

How much more will it take for you to accept the unthinkable. You are are being worked in the most devious and cunning way. So well in fact that those that try an warn you are certified as crazy

[TheDave]

It's not that I always look for conspiracies. It's that I think the only explanation for all the head scratching things going on in the world have a common denominator. and that is a meticulous , long planned series of events designed to instill control by the few over the unwashed many for their own good. Depopulation being their major theme.

I know I'm nuts right?

How much more will it take for you to accept the unthinkable. You are are being worked in the most devious and cunning way. So well in fact that those that try an warn you are certified as crazy

Sorry but there is now way I can compete with that kind of crazy... You Win.

[baja]

There you go again saying "I told you so"

No... you told me that Armageddon was coming and that soon "They" would release "The Virus"

Well considering 4 years later we are still able to bicker about this stuff on our favorite NFL message board... well... obviously you and I have a radically different definition of the word "Armageddon"

And please stop with the "Fiat Money has reached it's unavoidable end." the world isn't going back to a barter system, no matter how strong your delusions are.

God I forgot just how nuts you really are.

OK I see there is nothing I can say or do that will get you to open your eyes as to what is happening.

Let's say there is no mysterious plan, that all the counter productive to everyone events taking place is just collective stupidity or collective greed.

Please tell me your plan to fix the mess.

[baja]

Sorry but there is now way I can compete with that kind of crazy... You Win.

I understand why you would say that. If I was blind as you I would surely say the same. No hard feelings. ;D

[Arkie]

When do they devalue the dollar?

You should have asked, "when did they devalue the dollar?"

They devalued the dollar by 98% since the creation of the Federal Reserve. The value used to stay the same so you could always count on the dollar being "worth it's weight in gold."

Continental currency, on the other hand, wasn't backed by anything and gave rise to the saying "not worth a continental."

Federal reserve notes will collapse like the continentals.

[That One Guy]

My son swam the length of the pool on his own today for the first time. I isolated my problem in my boat to a small short (it runs fine but you get the occasional shock) that I just have to run down. We're about to catch the edge of that tropical storm and get some good rain that some areas desperately need. I might go swimming after dinner.

It sucks for everyone but if I hadn't looked, nothing in my life would've told me the stock market tanked today. I lost some imaginary credits that I won when I jumped in after the last crash. It's still a good day.

It's all about perspective. Some people need to open their eyes to it once in a while.

[baja]

You should have asked, "when did they devalue the dollar?"

They devalued the dollar by 98% since the creation of the Federal Reserve. The value used to stay the same so you could always count on the dollar being "worth it's weight in gold."

Continental currency, on the other hand, wasn't backed by anything and gave rise to the saying "not worth a continental."

Federal reserve notes will collapse like the continentals.

Yes here is a pretty good vid on the issue;

http://youtu.be/N--ecIbbTpY


Hey Dave maybe these guys are crazy too.............

[Arkie]

Absoultely that is the problem with tying a bunch of small boats together in calm seas it gives you greater stability. Problem is in rough seas one ship sinking pull everyone down with it.

and the German banks are the rope holding everyone together.

I think your analogy works well for the United States too. We are trying to control 50 boats of 300 million people. That's way too big in these rough seas, whereas 50 stronger states (less federal taxes, more state taxes) could deal with problems better.

[TheDave]

OK I see there is nothing I can say or do that will get you to open your eyes as to what is happening.

Let's say there is no mysterious plan, that all the counter productive to everyone events taking place is just collective stupidity or collective greed.

Please tell me your plan to fix the mess.



Let me put it this way, Last semester I had the absolute priviledge of teaching AP High School economics. Easily the funnest class I've ever taught.

See even with these VERY smart kids I was surprised at just how binary the economics discussion had to be during the first few weeks. Simple things like, fiat currency, fractional reserve banking, and even Supply & Demand concepts were 100% new to them. So frankly, we had to spend a fair amout of time with the ABC's of econ before we could discuss the more complicated issues such as global macro econ, international finance, and the like.

See... here's my point. These extremely smart kids took some time to get their motor running and none of them had spent the last few decades filling their heads with every hair brained conspiracy they could stuff into it.

Now in fairness, I have no idea how smart you are. What I do know is that in the end, It would be an abysmal waste of my time trying to cut through decades of throughly ingrained paranoia in hopes of finding enough common ground to have a discussion.

Sorry, but I'm too damn old to waste time trying to convince people who are running east looking for a sunset to turn around.

[baja]

Let me put it this way, Last semester I had the absolute priviledge of teaching AP High School economics. Easily the funnest class I've ever taught.

See even with these VERY smart kids I was surprised at just how binary the economics discussion had to be during the first few weeks. Simple things like, fiat currency, fractional reserve banking, and even Supply & Demand concepts were 100% new to them. So frankly, we had to spend a fair amout of time with the ABC's of econ before we could discuss the more complicated issues such as global macro econ, international finance, and the like.

See... here's my point. These extremely smart kids took some time to get their motor running and none of them had spent the last few decades filling their heads with every hair brained conspiracy they could stuff into it.

Now in fairness, I have no idea how smart you are. What I do know is that in the end, It would be an abysmal waste of my time trying to cut through decades of throughly ingrained paranoia in hopes of finding enough common ground to have a discussion.

Sorry, but I'm too damn old to waste time trying to convince people who are running east looking for a sunset to turn around.

Like I said in a previous post I understand why you would feel this way. This is the exact reason why there is no fixing the problems because the root "problems" are not understood or they are too scary to want to be understood. I think you are a good guy The Dave and I wish you nothing but the best in life. Carry on

[TheDave]

I think your analogy works well for the United States too. We are trying to control 50 boats of 300 million people. That's way too big in these rough seas, whereas 50 stronger states (less federal taxes, more state taxes) could deal with problems better.

Sorry but I think there are several steps in between do nothing and disband the union.

Start with throughout reforming the tax code. A simple tiered system of flat tax rates (broken down by income levels) ((We can argue the percentages another time)) would go a long ways to bringing parity to the revenue side of the equation. It also gets rid of the social engineering aspect of the code (better rates for marriage and home ownership)

As for the spending... here goes nothing:

SS: Remove the ceiling on social security taxes. Raise the retirement age to 68, and have a means test for everyone (people with 5 million in the "bank" don't need an extra $800 bucks a month)

Defense: Needs to be cut significantly possibly by 1/3... not sure exactly how we do that but it is the one (I emphasize ONE) area I agree with Ron Paul. Stop being the police for of the world. There has to be simple and easy inefficient policies that wouldn't be all that painful. Lets start by ending the 2.5 most recent occupations. That right there would save significant amounts.

Foreign Aid: simple, end it until we get our own house in order.

Medi/Medi: This one is above my pay grade... I honestly have no I'd what to do with this hornets nest. Wether a private or public option there has to be something more efficient than Obama care.

That combination of revenue and expense reform would go a long ways to fixing our current and long term problems... and it doesn't require that we kill off the FED or disband the union.

[TailgateNut]

Sorry but I think there are several steps in between do nothing and disband the union.

Start with throughout reforming the tax code. A simple tiered system of flat tax rates (broken down by income levels) ((We can argue the percentages another time)) would go a long ways to bringing parity to the revenue side of the equation. It also gets rid of the social engineering aspect of the code (better rates for marriage and home ownership)

As for the spending... here goes nothing:

SS: Remove the ceiling on social security taxes. Raise the retirement age to 68, and have a means test for everyone (people with 5 million in the "bank" don't need an extra $800 bucks a month)

Defense: Needs to be cut significantly possibly by 1/3... not sure exactly how we do that but it is the one (I emphasize ONE) area I agree with Ron Paul. Stop being the police for of the world. There has to be simple and easy inefficient policies that wouldn't be all that painful. Lets start by ending the 2.5 most recent occupations. That right there would save significant amounts.

Foreign Aid: simple, end it until we get our own house in order.

Medi/Medi: This one is above my pay grade... I honestly have no I'd what to do with this hornets nest. Wether a private or public option there has to be something more efficient than Obama care.

That combination of revenue and expense reform would go a long ways to fixing our current and long term problems... and it doesn't require that we kill off the FED or disband the union.


Dave for Prez!

[Spider]

Hell i just found out i hauled 43 thousand pounds of tainted ground turkey meat from springdale ar. To vons in el monte california....talk about a bad week

[DenverBrit]

About losing this much money?

No. Not in the slightest.

If your stocks are fundamentally sound, you should be fine.

[DenverBrit]

I've lost a pretty good chuck of money.

Only if you sold. ;)

[Garcia Bronco]

512 points down on the day,

[DenverBrit]

The economy is going Jimmy Carter on Obama. His approval rating is like 40%? Congressional approval like what 25% lol. I think Romney will have a good chance because he's not in Congress and not the President. We need to cut regulations, environmental ones especially, to get growth going on. Just like how they are opening back up that one rare earth mineral mines, but it will take 2 yrs to produce ore because of environmental hurdles.

Let's face it you can't fix this by eliminating the Bush Tax cuts. That isn't the reason for the stagnant growth.

Nor can we 'cut' our way out of a recession/dip.....revenue is needed.

[Fedaykin]

Sorry but I think there are several steps in between do nothing and disband the union.

Start with throughout reforming the tax code. A simple tiered system of flat tax rates (broken down by income levels) ((We can argue the percentages another time)) would go a long ways to bringing parity to the revenue side of the equation. It also gets rid of the social engineering aspect of the code (better rates for marriage and home ownership)


Yup -- get rid of all the loopholes but stick with a progressive tax system (or drastically lower the rates since going to a flat system would be a massive tax hike otherwise).


As for the spending... here goes nothing:

I think a better solution is the following:

Every part of government (defense, social, etc.) should have its budget slashed 5%/year (or some other reasonable %) every year for which there is a deficit (and we're not currently being invaded or something like that). Let the individual organizations within the government figure out how to make that cut happen. This would be a lot more effective and mitigate two huge problems with the current system of letting congress line item the budget:

1.) ideologically based cuts
2.) unintended consequences like large spikes in unemployment due to rapid funding changes.

Of course, this is rather hard to do with legislatively defined spending like medicare, but that legislation isn't written in stone.

It's folly to attempt to cut 1 trillion in spending/year all at once like the bagger idiots want.

[Garcia Bronco]

Cut hard and cut deep.

[ColoradoDarin]

Nor can we 'cut' our way out of a recession/dip.....revenue is needed.

so crazy it might just work (http://mises.org/daily/3788).....

[ColoradoDarin]

No one is talking about raising taxes on those who have been deeply effected by the recession. We're talking about expiring the Bush tax cuts which only effect those making more than $250k a year (and then only apply to dollars beyond $250k).

Do the math, and then you'll realize that you are going to come short (way short) on breaking even. What then?

[Arkie]

Sorry but I think there are several steps in between do nothing and disband the union.

Start with throughout reforming the tax code. A simple tiered system of flat tax rates (broken down by income levels) ((We can argue the percentages another time)) would go a long ways to bringing parity to the revenue side of the equation. It also gets rid of the social engineering aspect of the code (better rates for marriage and home ownership)

As for the spending... here goes nothing:

SS: Remove the ceiling on social security taxes. Raise the retirement age to 68, and have a means test for everyone (people with 5 million in the "bank" don't need an extra $800 bucks a month)

Defense: Needs to be cut significantly possibly by 1/3... not sure exactly how we do that but it is the one (I emphasize ONE) area I agree with Ron Paul. Stop being the police for of the world. There has to be simple and easy inefficient policies that wouldn't be all that painful. Lets start by ending the 2.5 most recent occupations. That right there would save significant amounts.

Foreign Aid: simple, end it until we get our own house in order.

Medi/Medi: This one is above my pay grade... I honestly have no I'd what to do with this hornets nest. Wether a private or public option there has to be something more efficient than Obama care.

That combination of revenue and expense reform would go a long ways to fixing our current and long term problems... and it doesn't require that we kill off the FED or disband the union.

Less federal taxes is not the same as disbanding the union. We can take away some of the growing central power and give it back to the states without disbanding.

[That One Guy]

Do the math, and then you'll realize that you are going to come short (way short) on breaking even. What then?

There's no way to substantiate the numbers but I think a lot of people underestimate how much $1.5T is.

[Arkie]

There's no way to substantiate the numbers but I think a lot of people underestimate how much $1.5T is.

Here's how $100 bills literally stack up.

one million can fit in a briefcase:
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/315062/DEBT-VISUAL.jpg

one trillion looks like this:
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/315050/DEBT-VISUAL.jpg

[cutthemdown]

Nor can we 'cut' our way out of a recession/dip.....revenue is needed.

Do you realize how much money the Govt bring in each month? It's out of control spending that is the problem. You act like there is no revenue.

[cutthemdown]

Getting more money from the 250k earners won't fix this. I'm not saying they could not survive it, I am saying it won't fix the problems. So what if govt has some more of our money, how will that help? The only way to really make more tax revenue are more taxpayers. The economy will grow we just have to keep cutting and be like the turtle and not the hare. Slow and steady, sustainable growth will happen if they just make some big cuts. The tax revenue will come around.

Still though it would help to curb some of the environmental regulations in mining and oil drilling. Big big money and jobs to be made from domestic production. We have what 20% of rare earth deposits, we should be going after them.

I learned first hand at a corp party for QSC this past weekend. Band played showing off their new PA speakers at the Grove in Anaheim Calif, the club that shares Angeles stadium parking lot. So they make the coolest powered live speakers. From arrays for big venues, down to stuff for bands to take to the local bar. The price of neodymium which is needed to make the speakers has skyrocketed due to the fact it is also used in wind turbines and no longer mined anywhere but China really. So the wind guys use a ton of it, has driven price up, and now screwing a company that isnt huge, but employing a ton of people in OC calif. They opened a mine in the USA but because of regulations were told it will be 2-3 yrs before its going again. That's how the govt costs jobs by making bad decisions on mining 10-15 yrs ago.

[baja]

Ya know I love the great ideas you guys are putting forth but are you forgetting we have a government that can't make the simplest of decisions. How in the world are they going to revamp the tax codes for example.

[DenverBrit]

Do you realize how much money the Govt bring in each month? It's out of control spending that is the problem. You act like there is no revenue.

Whatever the amount is, it's not enough.

Unemployment alone means we do not take in enough revenue from taxes. We have to get people back to work and close corporate welfare loopholes for a start.
Cuts are needed, but they are not enough on their own. As we make government smaller and cut back their budgets, we increase unemployment.

[Meck77]

Ya know I love the great ideas you guys are putting forth but are you forgetting we have a government that can't make the simplest of decisions. How in the world are they going to revamp the tax codes for example.

What's this we stuff? Your government is a bunch of ultra wealthy corrupt mexicans.

[That One Guy]

Whatever the amount is, it's not enough.

Unemployment alone means we do not take in enough revenue from taxes. We have to get people back to work and close corporate welfare loopholes for a start.
Cuts are needed, but they are not enough on their own. As we make government smaller and cut back their budgets, we increase unemployment.

At some point, government has to take away the tit.

[mhgaffney]

thankfully... not even close, our banks are in a night and day better position than they were in '08

A dubious conclusion -- but no surprise coming from the likes of you.

[mhgaffney]

The Tea Party platform: cut spending, balance the budget.

Yep...that's crazy, alright. Crazy if you're a trophy wife on the loose.

For once you are right. It is crazy.

[mhgaffney]

I didn't think 400 points was that big a drop...

Agreed. If the drop does not continue.

But we will have to wait and see.

[cutthemdown]

The bleak jobs report coming out won't help.

[cutthemdown]

Whatever the amount is, it's not enough.

Unemployment alone means we do not take in enough revenue from taxes. We have to get people back to work and close corporate welfare loopholes for a start.
Cuts are needed, but they are not enough on their own. As we make government smaller and cut back their budgets, we increase unemployment.

I love the corporate welfare jargon. Then people start in on rich people, then murmur 250 thousand, but don't mention that was a combined household number. Not sure what planet you live on but people making 150 grand a yr, with a wife who makes 100 grand a yr, are not rich. If you want corporation to get jiggy then you cut their taxes and regulations. I'm a saying there are no subsidies that should be ended? of course not, there probably are. Also though I'm not going to pretend I know the ins and outs of corp tax accounting.

I gave a real life example in an earlier thread about how govt regulations end up hurting jobs. But people would rather spew corp welfare is too blame, the rich are too blame, sounds like communism to me.

[TheDave]

A dubious conclusion -- but no surprise coming from the likes of you.

I know... I know...

Let me take a guess ALL Financials from all companies are fake, all rating agencies and central accounting firms, along with every member SEC, FDIC, and IMF are all in on some grand conspiracy that only your brilliance can figure out...

Am I close?

[TheDave]

Less federal taxes is not the same as disbanding the union. We can take away some of the growing central power and give it back to the states without disbanding.

Sorry ark didn't mean to misrepresent your point... What federal taxes sre the ones you want to eliminate?

[DenverBrit]

I love the corporate welfare jargon. Then people start in on rich people, then murmur 250 thousand, but don't mention that was a combined household number. Not sure what planet you live on but people making 150 grand a yr, with a wife who makes 100 grand a yr, are not rich. If you want corporation to get jiggy then you cut their taxes and regulations. I'm a saying there are no subsidies that should be ended? of course not, there probably are. Also though I'm not going to pretend I know the ins and outs of corp tax accounting.

I gave a real life example in an earlier thread about how govt regulations end up hurting jobs. But people would rather spew corp welfare is too blame, the rich are too blame, sounds like communism to me.

Which part of my post said 'only corporate loopholes'?? There's plenty of government waste and corruption that can be tackled. I would love to see capital gains lowered and loopholes closed. Most jobs are coming from start ups and large corporations are sitting on trillions while not creating jobs. Which is why the stock market is a good place to be right now.

Anyway, as long as the loopholes exist, we will see more of this:


What The Top U.S. Companies Pay In Taxes

How can it be that you pay more to the IRS than General Electric?

HOUSTON -- As you work on your taxes this month, here's something to raise your hackles: Some of the world's biggest, most profitable corporations enjoy a far lower tax rate than you do--that is, if they pay taxes at all.

The most egregious example is General Electric ( GE - news - people ). Last year the conglomerate generated $10.3 billion in pretax income, but ended up owing nothing to Uncle Sam. In fact, it recorded a tax benefit of $1.1 billion.

.............As a result, figures tax economist Martin Sullivan, companies are keeping some $28 billion a year out of the clutches of the U.S. Treasury by engaging in so-called transfer pricing arrangements, where, say, Microsoft's ( MSFT - news - people ) overseas subsidiaries license software to its U.S. parent company in return for handsome royalties (that get taxed at those lower overseas rates).

http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/01/ge-exxon-walmart-business-washington-corporate-taxes.html

[baja]

My son swam the length of the pool on his own today for the first time. I isolated my problem in my boat to a small short (it runs fine but you get the occasional shock) that I just have to run down. We're about to catch the edge of that tropical storm and get some good rain that some areas desperately need. I might go swimming after dinner.

It sucks for everyone but if I hadn't looked, nothing in my life would've told me the stock market tanked today. I lost some imaginary credits that I won when I jumped in after the last crash. It's still a good day.

It's all about perspective. Some people need to open their eyes to it once in a while.

I don't blame you one bit.

Enjoy you life.

There is something you can do about this though. support you local organic farmer, Eat seasonal foods support & work on community projects and most importantly live sustainably. This is the way to have a positive impact. You will teach by example.

[Play2win]

Which part of my post said 'only corporate loopholes'?? There's plenty of government waste and corruption that can be tackled. I would love to see capital gains lowered and loopholes closed. Most jobs are coming from start ups and large corporations are sitting on trillions while not creating jobs. Which is why the stock market is a good place to be right now.

Anyway, as long as the loopholes exist, we will see more of this:



http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/01/ge-exxon-walmart-business-washington-corporate-taxes.html

That's just sickening. America has provided these companies with the opportunity to make billions, and how do they thank America?

They take their business elsewhere and say, "Thanks for Shopping!"

[That One Guy]

That's just sickening. America has provided these companies with the opportunity to make billions, and how do they thank America?

They take their business elsewhere and say, "Thanks for Shopping!"

America has provided you the safety to prosper and raise a family. How much more do you think is fair for you to contribute?

[Broncojef]

Some of you are so clueless its not even funny. If you ever want to hear the truth...

Just prior to the Italian trading suspension came the huge fall in Italian and Portuguese bonds. Thus we are now having a full blown run on the banks in Italy, Spain, Portugal, and Greece as wealthy citizens there are frightened that the Euro is near death. The newsflow just keeps getting worse. Via Dow Jones we have learned that Spain, not Italy, has decided to pull its August 18 auction and will instead launch its 5 year auction on September 1. Then we got word that short term treasury bills are yielding negative rates. That means that if you want to deposit money in a bank facility you must pay the bank for the right to do so. DayStar thinks this policy is inflationary. They don't want dollars sitting in the bank. They want them spent on something. That increases the volocity of money, and and increased velocity of money is necessary for a really good hyperinflation.

Italy has to restructure bonds. There has been a depositors' run on Italian banks. The EU will have to mount a Tarp rescue. The liquidity freeze causes big stress on interbank loans. Basically, this is the worst possible combination for Europe which means that another bailout is not only imminent but has to happen tomorrow.

It seems that in one day, a huge amount of debt was added. We are all not sure what the real debt ceiling is now. We thought it was suppose to rise by 900 billion but it seems the rise in the debt ceiling is coming in 3 stages with the first one at 400 billion and the second one at another 500 billion and finally the last one at 1.5 trillion.

The following was from The Coming Crises of Governments by Robert Barro, professor of economics at Harvard University and a senior fellow of Stanford’s Hoover Institution. This guy is an elitist. He wrote, "The raucous debt-ceiling debate represents a good start in forging a serious long-term fiscal plan. Substantial additional progress will be needed, sadly much of which will probably have to await the outcome of the next US election. Yet progress must be made – or the impending crises of governments, signalled by possible downgrades of US debt, will make the 2008-09 recession look mild." The debt-ceiling debate did nothing. The only real cuts were to the military, and those cuts were in the out years, and the "cuts" were more a reduction in increases. The debate was fraught with sound and fury, and produced nothing of substance except more debt.

If you thought today was bad you aint seen nothing yet, buy some silver, gold and vote obama out.

https://www.kitcomm.com/showthread.php?t=64568&page=361

[That One Guy]

Some of you are so clueless its not even funny. If you ever want to hear the truth...

Just prior to the Italian trading suspension came the huge fall in Italian and Portuguese bonds. Thus we are now having a full blown run on the banks in Italy, Spain, Portugal, and Greece as wealthy citizens there are frightened that the Euro is near death. The newsflow just keeps getting worse. Via Dow Jones we have learned that Spain, not Italy, has decided to pull its August 18 auction and will instead launch its 5 year auction on September 1. Then we got word that short term treasury bills are yielding negative rates. That means that if you want to deposit money in a bank facility you must pay the bank for the right to do so. DayStar thinks this policy is inflationary. They don't want dollars sitting in the bank. They want them spent on something. That increases the volocity of money, and and increased velocity of money is necessary for a really good hyperinflation.

Italy has to restructure bonds. There has been a depositors' run on Italian banks. The EU will have to mount a Tarp rescue. The liquidity freeze causes big stress on interbank loans. Basically, this is the worst possible combination for Europe which means that another bailout is not only imminent but has to happen tomorrow.

It seems that in one day, a huge amount of debt was added. We are all not sure what the real debt ceiling is now. We thought it was suppose to rise by 900 billion but it seems the rise in the debt ceiling is coming in 3 stages with the first one at 400 billion and the second one at another 500 billion and finally the last one at 1.5 trillion.

The following was from The Coming Crises of Governments by Robert Barro, professor of economics at Harvard University and a senior fellow of Stanford’s Hoover Institution. This guy is an elitist. He wrote, "The raucous debt-ceiling debate represents a good start in forging a serious long-term fiscal plan. Substantial additional progress will be needed, sadly much of which will probably have to await the outcome of the next US election. Yet progress must be made – or the impending crises of governments, signalled by possible downgrades of US debt, will make the 2008-09 recession look mild." The debt-ceiling debate did nothing. The only real cuts were to the military, and those cuts were in the out years, and the "cuts" were more a reduction in increases. The debate was fraught with sound and fury, and produced nothing of substance except more debt.

If you thought today was bad you aint seen nothing yet, buy some silver, gold and vote obama out.

https://www.kitcomm.com/showthread.php?t=64568&page=361

It's things like this that so plainly remind me I never have an f'ing clue what I'm talking about.

Sounds serious though.

[Broncojef]

It's things like this that so plainly remind me I never have an f'ing clue what I'm talking about.

Sounds serious though.

Your posts are great dude. Europe is failing and once it does our dollar isn't far behind. Rough days ahead IMO...

[Meck77]

Been a kitco fan for years Broncojef. Great site.

Gold and Silver up early in Asian trading.

http://www.kitco.com/market/

Stock markets getting crushed.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/asia-shares-plunge-to-join-in-global-rout-2011-08-04

[mhgaffney]

I know... I know...

Let me take a guess ALL Financials from all companies are fake, all rating agencies and central accounting firms, along with every member SEC, FDIC, and IMF are all in on some grand conspiracy that only your brilliance can figure out...

Am I close?

I suggest you STFU and read the new 9/11 thread.

[Agamemnon]

Tax cuts did not cause the debt crisis. Even if the tax cuts never happened, the US would still be having debt issues. We spend too much, that is the problem.

:Broncos:

I don't disagree that our government spends too much. But as it is those tax cuts didn't really come with spending cuts. In fact they came with a bunch of really expensive military operations overseas. Taxes on the rich right now are the lowest they've been since the Great Depression (or something like that as I recall). That isn't helping. That's all I'm saying.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Been a kitco fan for years Broncojef. Great site.

Gold and Silver up early in Asian trading.

http://www.kitco.com/market/

Stock markets getting crushed.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/asia-shares-plunge-to-join-in-global-rout-2011-08-04

Anyone else remember when that Anthony Weiner slimeball was grandstanding in congress trying to make an issue out of Glenn Beck having gold advertisers on his show?

That sleeze grandstanded several times and tried to say that Beck was (because advertisers were paying for advertising during his show) duping people into bad investments.

Gold has since climbed and climbed and climbed and climbed.

Its fun when Weiner loses.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/283233_247582158596990_114270361928171_841749_5041 513_n.jpg

[TheElusiveKyleOrton]

Getting more money from the 250k earners won't fix this. I'm not saying they could not survive it, I am saying it won't fix the problems. So what if govt has some more of our money, how will that help? The only way to really make more tax revenue are more taxpayers. The economy will grow we just have to keep cutting and be like the turtle and not the hare. Slow and steady, sustainable growth will happen if they just make some big cuts. The tax revenue will come around.

Still though it would help to curb some of the environmental regulations in mining and oil drilling. Big big money and jobs to be made from domestic production. We have what 20% of rare earth deposits, we should be going after them.

I learned first hand at a corp party for QSC this past weekend. Band played showing off their new PA speakers at the Grove in Anaheim Calif, the club that shares Angeles stadium parking lot. So they make the coolest powered live speakers. From arrays for big venues, down to stuff for bands to take to the local bar. The price of neodymium which is needed to make the speakers has skyrocketed due to the fact it is also used in wind turbines and no longer mined anywhere but China really. So the wind guys use a ton of it, has driven price up, and now screwing a company that isnt huge, but employing a ton of people in OC calif. They opened a mine in the USA but because of regulations were told it will be 2-3 yrs before its going again. That's how the govt costs jobs by making bad decisions on mining 10-15 yrs ago.

I cannot believe you're still beating this drum.

We have a shortfall in money. By cutting the money we spend and making more money, we can lower the deficit. Yet you claim that "this won't fix the problem." Not immediately it won't, but over time, you bet your ass it will.

Close. The. Loopholes.

These "job creators" aren't creating any ****ing jobs. It's bull****. I can't believe you buy it, honestly.

[baja]

11,281.32
-102.36 (-0.90%)
Real-time: 11:24AM EDT

[broncocalijohn]

I cannot believe you're still beating this drum.

We have a shortfall in money. By cutting the money we spend and making more money, we can lower the deficit. Yet you claim that "this won't fix the problem." Not immediately it won't, but over time, you bet your ass it will.

Close. The. Loopholes.

These "job creators" aren't creating any ****ing jobs. It's bull****. I can't believe you buy it, honestly.

So printing more money to lower the deficit is your solution? Isnt that where inflation comes in to play? Also, you take every penny of those making over $250k and you get about $1.2 trillion. Ask yourself what we spend every year and what is our deficit every year. Taxing those earners at 100% doesnt solve the problem. I really don't mind raising their taxes 1% for a few years. I just don't think taxing them until it hurts solves the problem either. We spend like there is no tomorrow. Politicians think of now so they can be re-elected in 2 to 6 years. They don't care about 25 years from now. If people have to suffer a little now, they won't think of the greater outcome for the next generation. They will vote based on what happened to them on their last income tax return.

[baja]

The market made an effort to rebound (on good news on employment numbers) It was up 120 on the day at one point but it's slipping again.

One hour before closing;

11,437.19
+53.51 (0.47%)

[TheDave]

I suggest you STFU and read the new 9/11 thread.

The only thing funnier than all your you describing the bizzaro universe you live in is watching you play Internet tough guy.

By the way I hear 30,000 children just died of starvation. I bet your are working on new book titles already...


"Jews starving African Children to further their Zionist agenda"

Or

"CIA starves African children to acquire "Red Mercury" stake"


Bet you can't waite to make a few bucks off these latest corpses... ugh!~

[That One Guy]

The only thing funnier than all your you describing the bizzaro universe you live in is watching you play Internet tough guy.

By the way I hear 30,000 children just died of starvation. I bet your are working on new book titles already...


"Jews starving African Children to further their Zionist agenda"

Or

"CIA starves African children to acquire "Red Mercury" stake"


Bet you can't waite to make a few bucks off these latest corpses... ugh!~

Jews in CIA starve kids to get your attention away from the truth about 9/11

[TheDave]

Jews in CIA starve kids to get your attention away from the truth about 9/11

We shoud start a thread "Suggested titles for gaffneys next book"

[cutthemdown]

I cannot believe you're still beating this drum.

We have a shortfall in money. By cutting the money we spend and making more money, we can lower the deficit. Yet you claim that "this won't fix the problem." Not immediately it won't, but over time, you bet your ass it will.

Close. The. Loopholes.

These "job creators" aren't creating any ****ing jobs. It's bull****. I can't believe you buy it, honestly.

Didn't you just post 117 thousand jobs added in July? What sector do you think added those jobs?

[El Minion]

<nyt_headline version="1.0" type=" ">The Wrong Worries</nyt_headline> (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/05/opinion/the-wrong-worries.html?_r=1)

<nyt_byline> By PAUL KRUGMAN (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/opinion/editorialsandoped/oped/columnists/paulkrugman/index.html?inline=nyt-per)

</nyt_byline> Published: August 4, 2011

<nyt_text> </nyt_text>
In case you had any doubts, Thursday’s more than 500-point plunge in the Dow Jones industrial average and the drop in interest rates to near-record lows confirmed it: The economy isn’t recovering, and Washington has been worrying about the wrong things.

It’s not just that the threat of a double-dip recession has become very real. It’s now impossible to deny the obvious, which is that we are not now and have never been on the road to recovery.

For two years, officials at the Federal Reserve, international organizations and, sad to say, within the Obama administration have insisted that the economy was on the mend. Every setback was attributed to temporary factors — It’s the Greeks! It’s the tsunami! — that would soon fade away. And the focus of policy turned from jobs and growth to the supposedly urgent issue of deficit reduction.

But the economy wasn’t on the mend.

Yes, officially the recession ended two years ago, and the economy did indeed pull out of a terrifying tailspin. But at no point has growth looked remotely adequate given the depth of the initial plunge. In particular, when employment falls as much as it did from 2007 to 2009, you need a lot of job growth to make up the lost ground. And that just hasn’t happened.

Consider one crucial measure, the ratio of employment to population. In June 2007, around 63 percent of adults were employed. In June 2009, the official end of the recession, that number was down to 59.4. As of June 2011, two years into the alleged recovery, the number was: 58.2.

These may sound like dry statistics, but they reflect a truly terrible reality. Not only are vast numbers of Americans unemployed or underemployed, for the first time since the Great Depression many American workers are facing the prospect of very-long-term — maybe permanent — unemployment. Among other things, the rise in long-term unemployment will reduce future government revenues, so we’re not even acting sensibly in purely fiscal terms. But, more important, it’s a human catastrophe.

And why should we be surprised at this catastrophe? Where was growth supposed to come from? Consumers, still burdened by the debt that they ran up during the housing bubble, aren’t ready to spend. Businesses see no reason to expand given the lack of consumer demand. And thanks to that deficit obsession, government, which could and should be supporting the economy in its time of need, has been pulling back.

Now it looks as if it’s all about to get even worse. So what’s the response?

To turn this disaster around, a lot of people are going to have to admit, to themselves at least, that they’ve been wrong and need to change their priorities, right away.

Of course, some players won’t change. Republicans won’t stop screaming about the deficit because they weren’t sincere in the first place: Their deficit hawkery was a club with which to beat their political opponents, nothing more — as became obvious whenever any rise in taxes on the rich was suggested. And they’re not going to give up that club.

But the policy disaster of the past two years wasn’t just the result of G.O.P. obstructionism, which wouldn’t have been so effective if the policy elite — including at least some senior figures in the Obama administration — hadn’t agreed that deficit reduction, not job creation, should be our main priority. Nor should we let Ben Bernanke and his colleagues off the hook: The Fed has by no means done all it could, partly because it was more concerned with hypothetical inflation than with real unemployment, partly because it let itself be intimidated by the Ron Paul types.

Well, it’s time for all that to stop. Those plunging interest rates and stock prices say that the markets aren’t worried about either U.S. solvency or inflation. They’re worried about U.S. lack of growth. And they’re right, even if on Wednesday the White House press secretary chose, inexplicably, to declare that there’s no threat of a double-dip recession.

Earlier this week, the word was that the Obama administration would “pivot” to jobs now that the debt ceiling has been raised. But what that pivot would mean, as far as I can tell, was proposing some minor measures that would be more symbolic than substantive. And, at this point, that kind of proposal would just make President Obama look ridiculous.

The point is that it’s now time — long past time — to get serious about the real crisis the economy faces. The Fed needs to stop making excuses, while the president needs to come up with real job-creation proposals. And if Republicans block those proposals, he needs to make a Harry Truman-style campaign against the do-nothing G.O.P.

This might or might not work. But we already know what isn’t working: the economic policy of the past two years — and the millions of Americans who should have jobs, but don’t.

[ant1999e]

Posted this in another thread but think it applies to this conversation. 60% of the new debt limit has already been spent.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/8464-report-us-spends-60-percent-of-debt-ceiling-increase-in-one-day

Hours after Congress voted to raise the debt ceiling, the national debt rose enough to consume 60 percent of $400 billion allowed.

According to the Washington Times, spending shot up $239 billion on Tuesday, the largest one-day increase in American history.

Other debt news includes this heartening tidbit: Thanks to the big jump, the national debt may well exceed the gross domestic product.

What Happened

After Congress and the President plunged the nation further into fiscal chaos by raising the debt ceiling, the government began a one-day spending binge.

Reports the Times:

[T]he debt subject to the statutory limit shot way past the old cap of $14.294 trillion to hit $14.532 trillion on Tuesday, according to the latest Treasury Department figures, which are released on the next business day.

That increase puts the government already remarkably close to the new debt limit of $14.694, which means one day’s new borrowing ate up 60 percent of the $400 billion in space Congress granted the president this week.

A piddling $400 billion, the increase in the debt ceiling, is hardly enough to satisfy the appetite of the big spenders in Washington. Congress spent nearly $240 billion, a whopping 60 percent, in a matter of hours. That figure eclipsed the previous record, the Times reported. On June 30, 2009, Congress had helped Obama flush $186 billion down the toilet.

New Debt Record

Tuesday's massive increase also put the national debt above 100 percent of GDP. The new national debt of $14.53 trillion elbowed past the nation's $14.3 trillion economy. The U.S. Debt Clock (pictured above) puts the U.S. economy at $14.8 trillion, which would mean the national debt doesn't quite exceed GDP.

Either way, the spending splurge put the American people deeper in the hole and faster on the way to debt, exceeding even the fevered speculation of apocalyptic conservatives. Consider what the Congressional Budget Office believes just the public part of the national debt will be by 2020.

The national debt comprises two parts: the public debt and the intragovernmental debt. As The New American explained in March, federal debt held by the public is that debt, according to the Government Accounting Office, "held by all investors outside of the federal government, including individuals, corporations, state or local governments, the Federal Reserve banking system, and foreign governments." The intragovernmental debt is that held in government accounts, such as Social Security and Medicare.

The public debt is $9.908 trillion, the Times reports. The intragovernmental debt is $4.673 trillion.

That public debt, The New American reported, will reach $20 trillion by 2020. Reported CBO:

In 2012, the deficit under the President’s budget would decline to $1.2 trillion, or 7.4 percent of GDP, CBO estimates. That shortfall is $83 billion greater than the deficit that CBO projects for 2012 in its current baseline. Deficits in succeeding years under the President’s proposals would be smaller than the deficit in 2012, although they would still add significantly to federal debt. The deficit would shrink to 4.1 percent of GDP by 2015 but widen in later years, reaching 4.9 percent of GDP in 2021.

In all, deficits would total $9.5 trillion between 2012 and 2021 under the President’s budget (or 4.8 percent of total GDP projected for that period) — $2.7 trillion more than the cumulative deficit in CBO’s baseline. Federal debt held by the public would double under the President’s budget, growing from $10.4 trillion (69 percent of GDP) at the end of 2011 to $20.8 trillion (87 percent of GDP) at the end of 2021.

Obama The Record-Setter

Aside from holding the 1st- and 2nd-place records for single-day increases in the naitonal debt, the Obama administration holds others records as well, The New American reported in February.

The Obama administration broke the monthly record for the budget deficit. Expenditures exceeded revenues by $223 billion. That same month, the government added $63.7 billion to the national debt.

As well, The New American reported, quoting CNSNews.com, such is this administration's profligacy that it increased the average debt per American household by $30,000 in its first two years of control of the purse strings. Debt per household is now more than $125,000.

Citing The Economic Collapse website, The New American has also reported that the national debt cannot be paid off because it exceeds the value of all assets in the United States.

Beyond the $14.5 trillion national debt, American taxpayers face even more trouble as the nation's population ages. According to the debt clock, the United States must reckon a way to pay for nearly $115 trillion in unfunded liabilities. That liability for Social Security is $15.2 trillion; for the prescription drug benefit, $20 trillion. The unfunded liability for Medicare is $79.7 trillion.

That is more than $1 million per taxpayer. The debt clock puts the per capita debt at $46,719. Per taxpayer, the debt is $130,262.

Another $500 billion increase in the debt ceiling is due in the fall.

[That One Guy]

To turn this disaster around, a lot of people are going to have to admit, to themselves at least, that they’ve been wrong and need to change their priorities, right away.

Of course, some players won’t change. Republicans won’t stop screaming about the deficit because they weren’t sincere in the first place: Their deficit hawkery was a club with which to beat their political opponents, nothing more — as became obvious whenever any rise in taxes on the rich was suggested. And they’re not going to give up that club.


This is a prime example of why I am more for state's rights. It's not the tyranny of the federal government that I fear or anything. It's that what I want my government to be is different than what others want their states to be. I don't want the government to worry about trying to fix all these things. I want the government to merely get out of the way and not have a tax rate that inhibits a functioning economy. That's the extent I want them creating jobs. I don't want them extending unemployment benefits, I don't want them offering tax credits for veterans to be hired, etc. I want them to stop wasting money and just get out of the way. Eventually all things fall into equilibrium and that's what our economy would eventually do. We have to face the reality of where we stand in the world and how our policies impact the US. We don't need the gov't to keep using monopoly money to try and solve all our problems.

[That One Guy]

Citing The Economic Collapse website, The New American has also reported that the national debt cannot be paid off because it exceeds the value of all assets in the United States.


That's amazing.

[baja]

<nyt_headline version="1.0" type=" ">The Wrong Worries</nyt_headline> (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/05/opinion/the-wrong-worries.html?_r=1)

<nyt_byline> By PAUL KRUGMAN (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/opinion/editorialsandoped/oped/columnists/paulkrugman/index.html?inline=nyt-per)

</nyt_byline> Published: August 4, 2011

<nyt_text> </nyt_text>
In case you had any doubts, Thursday’s more than 500-point plunge in the Dow Jones industrial average and the drop in interest rates to near-record lows confirmed it: The economy isn’t recovering, and Washington has been worrying about the wrong things.

It’s not just that the threat of a double-dip recession has become very real. It’s now impossible to deny the obvious, which is that we are not now and have never been on the road to recovery.

For two years, officials at the Federal Reserve, international organizations and, sad to say, within the Obama administration have insisted that the economy was on the mend. Every setback was attributed to temporary factors — It’s the Greeks! It’s the tsunami! — that would soon fade away. And the focus of policy turned from jobs and growth to the supposedly urgent issue of deficit reduction.

But the economy wasn’t on the mend.

Yes, officially the recession ended two years ago, and the economy did indeed pull out of a terrifying tailspin. But at no point has growth looked remotely adequate given the depth of the initial plunge. In particular, when employment falls as much as it did from 2007 to 2009, you need a lot of job growth to make up the lost ground. And that just hasn’t happened.

Consider one crucial measure, the ratio of employment to population. In June 2007, around 63 percent of adults were employed. In June 2009, the official end of the recession, that number was down to 59.4. As of June 2011, two years into the alleged recovery, the number was: 58.2.

These may sound like dry statistics, but they reflect a truly terrible reality. Not only are vast numbers of Americans unemployed or underemployed, for the first time since the Great Depression many American workers are facing the prospect of very-long-term — maybe permanent — unemployment. Among other things, the rise in long-term unemployment will reduce future government revenues, so we’re not even acting sensibly in purely fiscal terms. But, more important, it’s a human catastrophe.

And why should we be surprised at this catastrophe? Where was growth supposed to come from? Consumers, still burdened by the debt that they ran up during the housing bubble, aren’t ready to spend. Businesses see no reason to expand given the lack of consumer demand. And thanks to that deficit obsession, government, which could and should be supporting the economy in its time of need, has been pulling back.

Now it looks as if it’s all about to get even worse. So what’s the response?

To turn this disaster around, a lot of people are going to have to admit, to themselves at least, that they’ve been wrong and need to change their priorities, right away.

Of course, some players won’t change. Republicans won’t stop screaming about the deficit because they weren’t sincere in the first place: Their deficit hawkery was a club with which to beat their political opponents, nothing more — as became obvious whenever any rise in taxes on the rich was suggested. And they’re not going to give up that club.

But the policy disaster of the past two years wasn’t just the result of G.O.P. obstructionism, which wouldn’t have been so effective if the policy elite — including at least some senior figures in the Obama administration — hadn’t agreed that deficit reduction, not job creation, should be our main priority. Nor should we let Ben Bernanke and his colleagues off the hook: The Fed has by no means done all it could, partly because it was more concerned with hypothetical inflation than with real unemployment, partly because it let itself be intimidated by the Ron Paul types.

Well, it’s time for all that to stop. Those plunging interest rates and stock prices say that the markets aren’t worried about either U.S. solvency or inflation. They’re worried about U.S. lack of growth. And they’re right, even if on Wednesday the White House press secretary chose, inexplicably, to declare that there’s no threat of a double-dip recession.

Earlier this week, the word was that the Obama administration would “pivot” to jobs now that the debt ceiling has been raised. But what that pivot would mean, as far as I can tell, was proposing some minor measures that would be more symbolic than substantive. And, at this point, that kind of proposal would just make President Obama look ridiculous.

The point is that it’s now time — long past time — to get serious about the real crisis the economy faces. The Fed needs to stop making excuses, while the president needs to come up with real job-creation proposals. And if Republicans block those proposals, he needs to make a Harry Truman-style campaign against the do-nothing G.O.P.

This might or might not work. But we already know what isn’t working: the economic policy of the past two years — and the millions of Americans who should have jobs, but don’t.

Better hope Meck don't read this he'll call you a cowardly traitor for posting it.

[Fedaykin]

On the plus side, I just locked in a 4.125% refi.

[baja]

On the plus side, I just locked in a 4.125% refi.

Fixed for 30? That is unbelievable. Super super deal.Shocking if that doesn't bump the housing market.

[Fedaykin]

Fixed for 30? That is unbelievable. Super super deal.Shocking if that doesn't bump the housing market.

Yeah, 3yf

The current avg rate is 4.3% (I got mine through a credit union which is generally around a quarter point below the average since they operate on a not-for-profit basis)

http://www.mortgagenewsdaily.com/mortgage_rates/

If you're an idiot, you can get a 1 year arm at <3% (good luck on rates not skyrocketing in the near future)

[Tombstone RJ]

Posted this in another thread but think it applies to this conversation. 60% of the new debt limit has already been spent.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/8464-report-us-spends-60-percent-of-debt-ceiling-increase-in-one-day

Hours after Congress voted to raise the debt ceiling, the national debt rose enough to consume 60 percent of $400 billion allowed.

According to the Washington Times, spending shot up $239 billion on Tuesday, the largest one-day increase in American history.

Other debt news includes this heartening tidbit: Thanks to the big jump, the national debt may well exceed the gross domestic product.

What Happened

After Congress and the President plunged the nation further into fiscal chaos by raising the debt ceiling, the government began a one-day spending binge.

Reports the Times:

[T]he debt subject to the statutory limit shot way past the old cap of $14.294 trillion to hit $14.532 trillion on Tuesday, according to the latest Treasury Department figures, which are released on the next business day.

That increase puts the government already remarkably close to the new debt limit of $14.694, which means one day’s new borrowing ate up 60 percent of the $400 billion in space Congress granted the president this week.

A piddling $400 billion, the increase in the debt ceiling, is hardly enough to satisfy the appetite of the big spenders in Washington. Congress spent nearly $240 billion, a whopping 60 percent, in a matter of hours. That figure eclipsed the previous record, the Times reported. On June 30, 2009, Congress had helped Obama flush $186 billion down the toilet.

New Debt Record

Tuesday's massive increase also put the national debt above 100 percent of GDP. The new national debt of $14.53 trillion elbowed past the nation's $14.3 trillion economy. The U.S. Debt Clock (pictured above) puts the U.S. economy at $14.8 trillion, which would mean the national debt doesn't quite exceed GDP.

Either way, the spending splurge put the American people deeper in the hole and faster on the way to debt, exceeding even the fevered speculation of apocalyptic conservatives. Consider what the Congressional Budget Office believes just the public part of the national debt will be by 2020.

The national debt comprises two parts: the public debt and the intragovernmental debt. As The New American explained in March, federal debt held by the public is that debt, according to the Government Accounting Office, "held by all investors outside of the federal government, including individuals, corporations, state or local governments, the Federal Reserve banking system, and foreign governments." The intragovernmental debt is that held in government accounts, such as Social Security and Medicare.

The public debt is $9.908 trillion, the Times reports. The intragovernmental debt is $4.673 trillion.

That public debt, The New American reported, will reach $20 trillion by 2020. Reported CBO:

In 2012, the deficit under the President’s budget would decline to $1.2 trillion, or 7.4 percent of GDP, CBO estimates. That shortfall is $83 billion greater than the deficit that CBO projects for 2012 in its current baseline. Deficits in succeeding years under the President’s proposals would be smaller than the deficit in 2012, although they would still add significantly to federal debt. The deficit would shrink to 4.1 percent of GDP by 2015 but widen in later years, reaching 4.9 percent of GDP in 2021.

In all, deficits would total $9.5 trillion between 2012 and 2021 under the President’s budget (or 4.8 percent of total GDP projected for that period) — $2.7 trillion more than the cumulative deficit in CBO’s baseline. Federal debt held by the public would double under the President’s budget, growing from $10.4 trillion (69 percent of GDP) at the end of 2011 to $20.8 trillion (87 percent of GDP) at the end of 2021.

Obama The Record-Setter

Aside from holding the 1st- and 2nd-place records for single-day increases in the naitonal debt, the Obama administration holds others records as well, The New American reported in February.

The Obama administration broke the monthly record for the budget deficit. Expenditures exceeded revenues by $223 billion. That same month, the government added $63.7 billion to the national debt.

As well, The New American reported, quoting CNSNews.com, such is this administration's profligacy that it increased the average debt per American household by $30,000 in its first two years of control of the purse strings. Debt per household is now more than $125,000.

Citing The Economic Collapse website, The New American has also reported that the national debt cannot be paid off because it exceeds the value of all assets in the United States.

Beyond the $14.5 trillion national debt, American taxpayers face even more trouble as the nation's population ages. According to the debt clock, the United States must reckon a way to pay for nearly $115 trillion in unfunded liabilities. That liability for Social Security is $15.2 trillion; for the prescription drug benefit, $20 trillion. The unfunded liability for Medicare is $79.7 trillion.

That is more than $1 million per taxpayer. The debt clock puts the per capita debt at $46,719. Per taxpayer, the debt is $130,262.

Another $500 billion increase in the debt ceiling is due in the fall.

wow, just wow. and no new jobs are being created. I don't understand congress and the obama adminsistration, I don't understand what they are trying to do other than create a disaster for the US economy.

[baja]

wow, just wow. and no new jobs are being created. I don't understand congress and the obama adminsistration, I don't understand what they are trying to do<b> other than create a disaster for the US economy.

Sometimes I think it's all so bazaar that they are being pressured beyond imagination to do just that. I'm not convinced of that, as some here accuse me of, but it sure would explain a lot of seemingly unrelated things.

[Meck77]

Israel stock market opened, got rocked with 7% losses, and they say it "crashed". http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=1000671367

Arab markets not any better. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904140604576493660709170594.html?m od=mktw

Asia on deck.

[Requiem]

Murder Monday coming up for the NYSE.

[baja]

400 point drop....but there is a slight ralley going on.



http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/images/1030-02.jpg

[sirhcyennek81]

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/images/1030-02.jpg

To make it fair...

http://tinyurl.com/3uqwcnn

http://tinyurl.com/43c7av2

http://tinyurl.com/3tlzgjb



:Broncos:

[baja]

no argument here

[chadta]

http://www.bloomberg.com/energy/

oil down 2.50 per barrel, gas down 6 cents per gallon already, monday isnt going to be pretty, thank god i have enough gas until tuesday cuz from the looks of things it could be a little cheaper

[Arkie]

DOW down 337 in the first hour. Where's the bottom?

[TheReverend]

I'm sick right now.

Violently sick.

**** time to go find a "real job" :(

[Garcia Bronco]

DOW down 337 in the first hour. Where's the bottom?

Hopefully in sight. I am down almost 30K over the past two weeks.

[TheReverend]

Hopefully in sight. I am down almost 30K over the past two weeks.

While this situation clearly sucks for just about everyone involved, I actually envy your losses Ha!. The funny thing is I was looking at early August as a huge run for me.

SURPRISE!

[Garcia Bronco]

While this situation clearly sucks for just about everyone involved, I actually envy your losses Ha!. The funny thing is I was looking at early August as a huge run for me.

SURPRISE!

I don't trade regaulr stocks all that often. That's long term low risk losses.

They should just suspend trading. Isreal did.

[ColoradoDarin]

Next support is at 1130 on the S&P 500.....

[baja]

Just remember boys you haven't lost any money until you sell your stocks.

[baja]

Well the market made it's little mid morning rally after loosing 300 in the first hour and now it's headed down again where will it go?


For now;

11,130.90
-313.71 (-2.74%)
Real-time: 11:36AM EDT

[Pony Boy]

I'm staying the course, not going to panic and sell but I will be rebalancing my portfolio. If you have a tolerance for risk and are heavy on some bonds, sell them and buy some stocks. This is not good advice for everyone depending on your time horizon as in my case, investment time is starting to play a huge roll in my investments.

[baja]

Only 3 1/2 hours left in the market day and only down just over 300 points, although bad not as bad as I thought it might be. Yet.




11,125.26
-319.35 (-2.79%)
Real-time: 12:23PM EDT

[Pony Boy]

Only 3 1/2 hours left in the market day and only down just over 300 points, although bad not as bad as I thought it might be. Yet.




11,125.26
-319.35 (-2.79%)
Real-time: 12:23PM EDT

Donald says don't wig out but be prepared for a wild ride.

[baja]

Donald says don't wig out but be prepared for a wild ride.

How'd you like to be his barber?

I can see it now.

Trump to barber while getting haircut, "ya go ahead an cut that one, no, No! leve that one, OK cut those two over there."

[ColoradoDarin]

Wow, down 450+ now with 2 hours to go. S&P sitting at 1140, I didn't think we'd get close to 1130 today, if we close above it expect a bounce and then further selling. This is double dip recession coming.

The good news is that if you totally destroy economic activity, gas prices come down (/bert stare)....

[baja]

Oh oh

1,004.51
-440.10 (-3.85%)
Real-time: 2:08PM EDT

They will ride out the day too because there is only 2 hours left. The worst news is this is only Monday

[Garcia Bronco]

So in the past 2 1/2 weeks I have us at about 1800 points in losses.

[alkemical]

it's all been sliding down hill since the .com burst. :(

[baja]

OMG this is what I feared.... a late negative run.

10,899.65
-544.96 (-4.76%)
Real-time: 2:24PM EDT

[Meck77]

it's all been sliding down hill since the .com burst. :(

Well not really depending on how you look at things. I bailed mid may. When it was hitting 13,000 that was a clear sign for me things were not right. It was being pumped up by all the money obama handed off to the banksters.

http://stockcharts.com/freecharts/historical/djia1900.html

Look at this chart for the big picture.

Dow 7591...Dow...7062.....Dow???? 6,500 this time?

I'm not exactly waiting for 6,500. I'll trickle back in the coming months. Maybe after the typical dive of October.

[Requiem]

Smart of you to get out Meck!

I spent the whole afternoon talking to my dad about it. He lost a lot the last time around and about a month ago, he pulled almost everything out. Thank God, especially since he is retiring at the end of the year. So many people going bust.

There used to be a time where the market worked for the average joe, no longer, IMHO.

[alkemical]

Well not really depending on how you look at things. I bailed mid may. When it was hitting 13,000 that was a clear sign for me things were not right. It was being pumped up by all the money obama handed off to the banksters.

http://stockcharts.com/freecharts/historical/djia1900.html

Look at this chart for the big picture.

Dow 7591...Dow...7062.....Dow???? 6,500 this time?

I'm not exactly waiting for 6,500. I'll trickle back in the coming months. Maybe after the typical dive of October.


That's when I started seeing trends of unsustainablity, it even based on WHERE i looked for work (not geography, but industry).

[baja]

10,929.88
-514.73 (-4.50%)
Real-time: 3:33PM EDT

[baja]

That's almost 10% loss in two trading days

[baja]

US stocks plunge, Dow Jones falls over 500 points in manic Monday sell-off


http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/us-stocks-plunge-dow-jones-falls-over-500-points-in-manic-monday-selloff-125296

[alkemical]

http://www.seedsofchange.com/

:D

[Garcia Bronco]

Sweet. I only lost a grand today on the retirement stuff.

[baja]

oh shiit

10,816.51
-628.10 (-5.49%)
Aug 8 - Close

[TheReverend]

Well not really depending on how you look at things. I bailed mid may. When it was hitting 13,000 that was a clear sign for me things were not right. It was being pumped up by all the money obama handed off to the banksters.

http://stockcharts.com/freecharts/historical/djia1900.html

Look at this chart for the big picture.

Dow 7591...Dow...7062.....Dow???? 6,500 this time?

I'm not exactly waiting for 6,500. I'll trickle back in the coming months. Maybe after the typical dive of October.

I don't think it goes anywhere NEAR the 2008 lows.

Not even close.

I'll be surprised if it dips below 10k.

[TheReverend]

I don't think it goes anywhere NEAR the 2008 lows.

Not even close.

I'll be surprised if it dips below 10k.

^

Of course, if I knew the future, I wouldn't have lost my dick in the markets the past few weeks Ha!

[broncocalijohn]

I'm sick right now.

Violently sick.

**** time to go find a "real job" :(

Good luck with that. Stand behind me.
Meck had the right call on Silver for someone that wants more than a few ounces of Gold.

[Garcia Bronco]

Good luck with that. Stand behind me.
Meck had the right call on Silver for someone that wants more than a few ounces of Gold.

Yep...I bought my "oh ****" silver some time ago.

[Kaylore]

Did anyone hear the POTUS today?

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-calls-us-aaa-nation-despite-aa-rating-180828644.html

"Markets will rise and fall," he said. "But this is the United States of America. No matter what some agency may say, we've always been and always will be a triple-A country."

I know its a ra-ra thing, but I think its the wrong thing to say. I think we need to see this for what it is. As a country and a people we owe too much and most of it we have no intention of paying off. We can't continue to live in denial of how serious the problem here is.

[broncocalijohn]

Did anyone hear the POTUS today?

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-calls-us-aaa-nation-despite-aa-rating-180828644.html



I know its a ra-ra thing, but I think its the wrong thing to say. I think we need to see this for what it is. As a country and a people we owe too much and most of it we have no intention of paying off. We can't continue to live in denial of how serious the problem here is.

How about the PO(TU)S actually comes out and tells us how we are going to get our rating back to AAA? We need action, not RA-RA **** when we know it is only words.

[sirhcyennek81]

Did anyone hear the POTUS today?

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-calls-us-aaa-nation-despite-aa-rating-180828644.html



I know its a ra-ra thing, but I think its the wrong thing to say. I think we need to see this for what it is. As a country and a people we owe too much and most of it we have no intention of paying off. We can't continue to live in denial of how serious the problem here is.


When Obama used Buffet to dismiss Standard and Poor's decision he lost the argument. Buffet may know finance...but so does S&P.

Fail.

:Broncos:

[ColoradoDarin]

How about the PO(TU)S actually comes out and tells us how we are going to get our rating back to AAA? We need action, not RA-RA **** when we know it is only words.

He hasn't had a plan on the economy for the last 3 years, I don't think he's coming up with one in the next year.....

Give me Rick Perry, he balanced the budget, cut taxes, cut spending (actually cut, not just a cut in the rate of growth), and grew jobs. All this after he inherited a state economy from George Bush, and got S&P to raise Texas' bond ratings...

[Requiem]

Rick Perry. . .

[DenverBrit]

When Obama used Buffet to dismiss Standard and Poor's decision he lost the argument. Buffet may know finance...but so does S&P.

Fail.

:Broncos:

The S&P are anything but reliable. They rated the sub rime mortgages AAA. I'll go with Buffet every time vs any credit agency.....who make big bucks using their ratings and are expected to make a profit. S&P is a McGraw Hill subsidiary.

The banks could not have done what they did without the complicity of the rating agencies." Without the AAA ratings , demand for these securities would have been considerably less. Bank writedowns and losses on these investments totaled $523 billion as of September 2008.

S&P's opinion on debt ratings should have almost no credibility.

S&P is the same private profit-making corporation that was paid tens of millions of dollars by Wall Street banks to rate its toxic subprime mortgages and derivatives, giving them phony AAA ratings. S&P's conflicts of interest played a key role in causing the housing bubble and the resulting financial crisis that led directly to the Great Recession, the loss of millions of jobs, and the ballooning of the Federal debt.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miles-mogulescu/a-corrupt-s-p-uses-shock-_b_920719.html

[epicSocialism4tw]

Did anyone hear the POTUS today?

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-calls-us-aaa-nation-despite-aa-rating-180828644.html



I know its a ra-ra thing, but I think its the wrong thing to say. I think we need to see this for what it is. As a country and a people we owe too much and most of it we have no intention of paying off. We can't continue to live in denial of how serious the problem here is.

Barack Obama: the president who inherited a turd and hopeychanged it into a radioactive pile of nuclear waste.

[W*GS]

Give me Rick Perry, he balanced the budget, cut taxes, cut spending (actually cut, not just a cut in the rate of growth), and grew jobs. All this after he inherited a state economy from George Bush, and got S&P to raise Texas' bond ratings...

And Texas has a $27 billion deficit.

[ant1999e]

The S&P are anything but reliable. They rated the sub rime mortgages AAA. I'll go with Buffet every time vs any credit agency.....who make big bucks using their ratings and are expected to make a profit. S&P is a McGraw Hill subsidiary.


S&P's opinion on debt ratings should have almost no credibility.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miles-mogulescu/a-corrupt-s-p-uses-shock-_b_920719.html

But weren't they reliable when they said we needed to raise the debt ceiling or we would get downgrade?

[epicSocialism4tw]

But weren't they reliable when they said we needed to raise the debt ceiling or we would get downgrade?

What wasn't reported is that Moody's also wanted 7-8 trillion in cuts.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I just heard Obama's speech on this issue...the dude has no idea how to lead a country and has now become background noise to the congress and the senate.

He'll get beat handily in the upcoming election. Most people would rather vote in a deflated river tube than to watch Obama flub his way through another 4 years.

[W*GS]

He'll get beat handily in the upcoming election.

By whom of the legitimate GOP contenders?

[ColoradoDarin]

And Texas has a $27 billion deficit.

Says the guy 8 months behind....

[epicSocialism4tw]

By whom of the legitimate GOP contenders?

Any reasonable person would vote in whichever politician is presented as the other option.

If you vote for Obama after the unmitigated disaster of a presidency that he has delivered, you are an abject moron. We have seen enough to know that Obama is absoultely the WORST option on the table, no matter who he runs against.

The first president ever to oversee a reduction in credit...after he and his cohorts in their spending cabal raised the debt to unheard-of amounts.

The guy is like a wildfire spreading through the country, burning every living thing in its path. Its time to quench that fire and move on. He's torched enough of our country.

[cutthemdown]

My bologna has a first name, it's B-A-R-A-C-K
My bologna has a second name, it's O-B-A-M-A
ooooh, I love to hate him every daaay,
and if you ask me why, I'd saaay
'cuz Barack Obama has a way of screwing up the U-S-A!

:)

[W*GS]

Any reasonable person would vote in whichever politician is presented as the other option.

The words "reasonable" and "'bagger" are not synonyms.

If you vote for Obama after the unmitigated disaster of a presidency that he has delivered, you are an abject moron. We have seen enough to know that Obama is absoultely the WORST option on the table, no matter who he runs against.

You misspelled "Bush" as "Obama" - fix that, and that would have been very sound advice in 2004.

The first president ever to oversee a reduction in credit...after he and his cohorts in their spending cabal raised the debt to unheard-of amounts.

Where were you 'baggers when Bush cut taxes but didn't cut spending?

Where were you 'baggers when Bush started a war with Afghanistan but didn't raise taxes to pay for it?

Where were you 'baggers when Bush started a war with Iraq but didn't raise taxes to pay for it?

Oh yeah, it wasn't until Obama was in the White House that you guys "discovered" the debt and the deficit. Interesting coincidence...

[W*GS]

The GOP and the 'baggers are all about trying to make Obama fail, and ****ing the country is worth it to them.

When are the rest of us, the sane folks, going to put an end to the 'baggers campaign to blow up America just so they can get back at the Negro?

[epicSocialism4tw]

The words "reasonable" and "'bagger" are not synonyms.

You misspelled "Bush" as "Obama" - fix that, and that would have been very sound advice in 2004.

Where were you 'baggers when Bush cut taxes but didn't cut spending?

Where were you 'baggers when Bush started a war with Afghanistan but didn't raise taxes to pay for it?

Where were you 'baggers when Bush started a war with Iraq but didn't raise taxes to pay for it?

Oh yeah, it wasn't until Obama was in the White House that you guys "discovered" the debt and the deficit. Interesting coincidence...

This stuff is hilarious ! Ha!

Its written like it comes from the parkinsons-addled brain of a 95-year old who has been living in a cave getting his news from pidgeons and who cant quite put that "information" together.

You do realize that the Tea Party formed as a response to Bush, right? Ha!

[W*GS]

You do realize that the Tea Party formed as a response to Bush, right?

After he was headed out the door.

The 'baggers didn't get going until that Negro was in the White House.

Coincidence? Not at all...

[TailgateNut]

The GOP and the 'baggers are all about trying to make Obama fail, and ****ing the country is worth it to them.

When are the rest of us, the sane folks, going to put an end to the 'baggers campaign to blow up America just so they can get back at the Negro?


The baggers wouldn't spell that last word as you did. Right Drama?

[baja]

Did anyone hear the POTUS today?

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-calls-us-aaa-nation-despite-aa-rating-180828644.html



I know its a ra-ra thing, but I think its the wrong thing to say. I think we need to see this for what it is. As a country and a people we owe too much and most of it we have no intention of paying off. <b>We can't continue to live in denial of how serious the problem here is.
Thank you for saying that. If I have been a little testy here lately that is the reason. How can people not see what is being done to them?

[epicSocialism4tw]

After he was headed out the door.

The 'baggers didn't get going until that Negro was in the White House.

Coincidence? Not at all...

It began with Ron Paul and it snowballed rapidly.


http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2007/12/ron_pauls_tea_p.html

[DenverBrit]

What wasn't reported is that Moody's also wanted 7-8 trillion in cuts.

If it wasn't reported, how do you know about it?? Ha!

[TailgateNut]

If it wasn't reported, how do you know about it?? Ha!


He always knows someone who knows someone who heard.

[baja]

After he was headed out the door.

The 'baggers didn't get going until that Negro was in the White House.

Coincidence? Not at all...

It is what gives the group it's passion and IQ that is for sure. I find myself agreeing with a lot lately W*GS, am I ill? ;D

[epicSocialism4tw]

If it wasn't reported, how do you know about it??

I was referring to the blind ignorance of most people who listen to anything said in the mainstream media. Obviously yourself included.

[DenverBrit]

I was referring to the blind ignorance of most people who listen to anything said in the mainstream media. Obviously yourself included.

Nice try, but that's not remotely what you were referring to.

What wasn't reported is that Moody's also wanted 7-8 trillion in cuts.

Typical EpicLiar. Ha!

So where is this 7-8 trillion Moody's threat?? Link??

[elsid13]

He hasn't had a plan on the economy for the last 3 years, I don't think he's coming up with one in the next year.....

Give me Rick Perry, he balanced the budget, cut taxes, cut spending (actually cut, not just a cut in the rate of growth), and grew jobs. All this after he inherited a state economy from George Bush, and got S&P to raise Texas' bond ratings...

You do realize that hr fixed the state deficit by using the Federal Stimulus funds to plug his problem because he cuts taxes?

[TheReverend]

The GOP and the 'baggers are all about trying to make Obama fail, and ****ing the country is worth it to them.

When are the rest of us, the sane folks, going to put an end to the 'baggers campaign to blow up America just so they can get back at the Negro?

You can't be serious...

[That One Guy]

After he was headed out the door.

The 'baggers didn't get going until that Negro was in the White House.

Coincidence? Not at all...

You're so consumed with defending Obama against the Rs that you rarely actually participate in discussions.

Curious question: is it because you agree with Obama or just because you like to take shots at the other team?

[gyldenlove]

You do realize that hr fixed the state deficit by using the Federal Stimulus funds to plug his problem because he cuts taxes?

He also postponed the payment of large bills so they wouldn't figure on the current budget, but instead gets pushed into the next budget cycle (suddenly making several billion dollars disappear from this years budget and get moved to next years).

Perry is doing things that would make most Enron accountants proud.

[sirhcyennek81]

95 Democrat members of the house voted against raising the debt celiling. I suppose they are all tea-party members?


:Broncos:

[Meck77]

Asia tuesday market update.

Down 4% so far.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/asian-stocks-plunge-after-us-sell-off-2011-08-08?link=MW_home_latest_news

[cutthemdown]

Thank you for saying that. If I have been a little testy here lately that is the reason. How can people not see what is being done to them?

Don't say Testy around Requim ok? One of his testies blew up and it makes him cringe to hear the word.

[cutthemdown]

Maybe Obama can draft a jobs bill so convoluted we have to pass it, to see what is in it.

[W*GS]

You can't be serious...

The bigotry of the 'baggers can't be ignored.

[W*GS]

You're so consumed with defending Obama against the Rs that you rarely actually participate in discussions.

I'm defending reality against the fantasies (no tax increases ever on anyone, 'specially the rich) of the 'baggers.

There are many ways we can get this nation back into fiscal shape - but the crap the 'baggers present is utter nonsense.

Curious question: is it because you agree with Obama just because you like to take shots at the other team?

I take shots at idiots. The 'baggers are a target-rich environment.

[DenverBrit]

<iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/JTzMqm2TwgE?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Arkie]

It began with Ron Paul and it snowballed rapidly.


http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2007/12/ron_pauls_tea_p.html

They began to really gain traction in 2007 before the debt ceiling was raised past 10 trillion. The movement grew bigger and bigger in reaction to the out of control spending leading to 15 trillion in debt, but they don't like Obama because of his skin color. ;) Seriously, Obama's critics never bring up his race. It's always his supporters that use it as a shield.

[ColoradoDarin]

You do realize that hr fixed the state deficit by using the Federal Stimulus funds to plug his problem because he cuts taxes?

The stimulus was in 2009, The budget shortfall that W*gs was referring to was in Jan 2011, and the new budget was passed just a couple of months ago.

[TheReverend]

The bigotry of the 'baggers can't be ignored.

Yeah, I'm completely non-partisan, but this is just bull**** dude.

[sirhcyennek81]

The bigotry of the 'baggers can't be ignored.


Evidence for this?


:Broncos:

[DenverBrit]

Only after an outcry did these signs disappear, but the bigotry 'cat' is out of the bag.

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/S38VioxnBaI?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Meck77]

BofA worth less than a six pack of cheep beer. http://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:BAC I guess they are going to need another bailout. So who's in favor of that this time around?