View Full Version : Who would be the best coach for Tim Tebow
Who would be the best coach for Tebow
theAPAOps5
08-03-2011, 09:39 PM
,
TheDave
08-03-2011, 09:39 PM
Urban Meyer
broncocalijohn
08-03-2011, 09:42 PM
; might be better than .
(fix the damn title slowpoke)
Broncoman13
08-03-2011, 09:42 PM
.
Broncoman13
08-03-2011, 09:44 PM
I've always thought a QB like Tebow could be a Steve Young caliber player with Shanahan or Kubiak for that matter.
ShutDownPoster
08-03-2011, 09:50 PM
Steve Young
Steve Beurline
Steve De Berg
...Steve Urkel
Heck any of those Steve's - doesn't need to be an HOF'er like Young - just someone who is a great mentor.
Bronx33
08-03-2011, 09:52 PM
where the **** is the red miller option!!
Hamrob
08-03-2011, 10:05 PM
I think Sean Payton is a perfect guy for this. He understands how to utilize a person's talents to the benefit of the team.
My 2nd choice would be Kubs!!!
SoCalBronco
08-03-2011, 10:23 PM
Shanny. He got a passer rating title out of Griese, turned Plummer's career around and helped Jay get to the Pro Bowl. He could probably develop Tebow pretty well. It would take some time ofcourse, but he could do it.
Josh's small amount of work with him last year also paid dividends late in the season. Not surprisingly, McCoy can't seem to get Tebow back to that level without Josh even if the terminology is largely the same. So if he were still with Josh, he could probably have him playing at a higher level than Fox's staff.
I still think the biggest problem here is that Tebow was deprived of the offseason work that is so vital in the maturation of a young player between Year 1 and Year 2. That was especially vital for a guy like Tebow who is still pretty raw. It also doesn't help that they've pigeonholed Gase into the QB coach role when he's long been largely a WR coach.
DBroncos4life
08-03-2011, 10:57 PM
Lebron
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6832410/lebron-james-uses-twitter-support-tim-tebow
Swedish Extrovert
08-03-2011, 11:34 PM
Josh McDaniels or Jon Gruden or Tony Dungy...
Dungy and Jon Gruden should be an option... I would think that a proven coach who believes that Tebow will be good (like Gruden or Dungy) would be the best fit for him.
Requiem
08-03-2011, 11:34 PM
He is a servant of the Lord.
God is his guide.
Blessed be Timothy and may he lead our Stallions to victory.
FireFly
08-04-2011, 12:01 AM
Jon gruden
Taco John
08-04-2011, 12:06 AM
Jerry Glanville with Urban Meyer as OC and Dosh McDerpdaderp as QB coach.
extralife
08-04-2011, 12:07 AM
Christ, I don't care who the best coach for Tim Tebow would be--I care who the best coach for the Denver Broncos is.
BowlenBall
08-04-2011, 12:32 AM
Where's the Dan Reeves option?
Run the ball 50 times a game, keep it close, then let the gamer take over late in the 4th quarter for the come-back win....
Taco John
08-04-2011, 12:54 AM
Where's the Dan Reeves option?
Run the ball 50 times a game, keep it close, then let the gamer take over late in the 4th quarter for the come-back win....
It's genius! It just might work!
sirhcyennek81
08-04-2011, 01:00 AM
Shanahan.
But if Shanny was never fired, we would still have Cutler (more than likely) and we would be arguing over our 6th d-coordinator in 6 years and starting out 6-2 but finishing 8-8. There would also be a premature Hillis for HOF thread and someone would suggest hiring Romo as our strength and conditioning coach.
Good times...
:Broncos:
MacGruder
08-04-2011, 02:15 AM
Urban Meyer
I think it would actually be Tebow's offensive coordinator when he was at UF - Dan Mullen.
Urban Meyer kind of choked coaching Tebow his final year when Mullen left. I think Mullen was the guy who was really responsible for using Tebow to his fullest.
Mullen also has the creativity to figure out how to use him.
Creativity and the BALLS to let Tebow play the way he is capable of is most important IMO.
Norv Turner or Jim Harbaugh.
Dukes
08-04-2011, 04:12 AM
Kubes. The thought of Tebow perfecting the bootleg turns me on.
TheElusiveKyleOrton
08-04-2011, 05:36 AM
Urban Meyer
Yep.
alkemical
08-04-2011, 05:46 AM
Where's the Dan Reeves option?
Run the ball 50 times a game, keep it close, then let the gamer take over late in the 4th quarter for the come-back win....
It's genius! It just might work!
What better way to protect and grow a young QB!
Eldorado
08-04-2011, 05:51 AM
Shanahan.
But if Shanny was never fired, we would still have Cutler (more than likely) and we would be arguing over our 6th d-coordinator in 6 years and starting out 6-2 but finishing 8-8. There would also be a premature Hillis for HOF thread and someone would suggest hiring Romo as our strength and conditioning coach.
Good times...
:Broncos:
I am astounded that, after the debacle of the last 24 games, people still take pot shots at shanny.
TheElusiveKyleOrton
08-04-2011, 05:54 AM
I am astounded that, after the debacle of the last 24 games, people still take pot shots at shanny.
Why?
After the last 24 games, the last years of Shanahan's tenure didn't disappear. It's not an endorsement of the McDaniels era to say that the end of the Shanahan era was less than great.
I am astounded that, after the debacle of the last 24 games, people still take pot shots at shanny.
Last 29 under McD: 11-18
Last 29 games under Shanny: 13-16
Wow...Some mastermind. 2 whopping games better than a 33 year old kid......With a supposed franchise QB, a baby TO at WR & a HOF caliber white tailback (If you listen to some). McD was a whole 2 games worse with a noodle arm QB who folds under pressure and sacks himself, a couple of journeymen WR and a slow cross fit RB who trips on grass blades (if you listen to some).
McD sucked in his first stint as a HC.
Shanny sucks without Elway.
Get over it.
Last 29 under McD: 11-18
Last 29 games under Shanny: 13-16
Wow...Some mastermind. 2 whopping games better than a 33 year old kid......With a supposed franchise QB, a baby TO at WR & a HOF caliber white tailback (If you listen to some). McD was a whole 2 games worse with a noodle arm QB who folds under pressure and sacks himself, a couple of journeymen WR and a slow cross fit RB who trips on grass blades (if you listen to some).
McD sucked in his first stint as a HC.
Shanny sucks without Elway.
Get over it.
....and that about sums it up folks.
bendog
08-04-2011, 08:06 AM
I think Sean Payton is a perfect guy for this. He understands how to utilize a person's talents to the benefit of the team.
My 2nd choice would be Kubs!!!
Tim Tebow is the least suited quarterback in history to run Payton's offense. Fox's offense from Car ironically is not terribly suited. It was run run run, and Steve Smith running deeper routes and Muhammad intermediate, i.e. pretty vanilla.
robbieopperude
08-04-2011, 08:16 AM
Jon gruden
Jon Gruden +1
also Andy Reid or whoever the frick turned Vick and Kolb into quality NFL pocket passers.
robbieopperude
08-04-2011, 08:20 AM
....and that about sums it up folks.
I could argue the fact that Shanahan did start Cutler at the end of the year and pretty much lost games he would have won with Plummer but ultimately that was his own stupidity. At the time the board was pretty split on lose this year to get Cutler his reps or keep Plummer in and make the playoffs. One thing I did see was Shanahan in a hole hell of alot more meaningful games than Josh. Plus it is pretty stupid to try to compare just 29 games. McDaniels couldn't even make it through the season before he got his butt canned.
Advantage: Shanahan
I could argue the fact that Shanahan did start Cutler at the end of the year and pretty much lost games he would have won with Plummer but ultimately that was his own stupidity. At the time the board was pretty split on lose this year to get Cutler his reps or keep Plummer in and make the playoffs. One thing I did see was Shanahan in a hole hell of alot more meaningful games than Josh. Plus it is pretty stupid to try to compare just 29 games. McDaniels couldn't even make it through the season before he got his butt canned.
Advantage: Shanahan
It looks like McD got fired for Spygate II not coaching ability thus the negotiated buy out of his contract.
The best overall situation for Tebow would be one where he gets to sit the rest of this year and continue his mental and technical development, then be given the reigns for his third season to take over from start of season to the end.
In Merrill Hoge's recent critique of Tebow he talks about how you can't learn accuracy. This isn't true. People learn accuracy all the time. NFL QBs become more and more accurate with time and a profession with a very high level of correlation, MLB pitching, has a definite learning curve for accuracy. In fact, a widely held scouting belief in baseball is that left handers tend to find their accuracy later in life than right handers. Its entirely possible this baseball truism is just as valid for left handed QBs.
Given a strong vote of confidence as our guy in 2012 would do a lot to calm the fan element, steady Tebow's view on where he'll be going forward, and put the veterans at ease to know that we are trying our best with Orton in 2011.
The coach is less important than the process when it comes to developing Tebow to reach his full potential. Unfortunately the process we currently should be looking for, the one clearly laid out by Josh McDaniels last season, is not being observed. I personally feel its because this new FO has no commitment to Tebow and would rather put him in a sink or swim situation this year so that they can pursue Luck with all possible fervor this off-season should Tebow stumble when thrust into the starting role.
MacGruder
08-04-2011, 08:36 AM
The best overall situation for Tebow would be one where he gets to sit the rest of this year and continue his mental and technical development
What are you basing this analysis on?
One thing you forget though IMO is that Orton cannot stay healthy. So Tebow is going to have to play at some point anyway. Probably sooner rather than later.. By injury or losing on Orton's part.
What are you basing this analysis on?
One thing you forget though IMO is that Orton cannot stay healthy. So Tebow is going to have to play at some point anyway. Probably sooner rather than later.. By injury or losing on Orton's part.
I don't think you can say that as a statement of fact.
RaiderH8r
08-04-2011, 08:46 AM
I like Kubes. I think Kubes was a big part of Shanny's success here and has a solid eye and mind for offenses and utilizing talent.
Kills me but McKid would be good for TT.
Mullen.
Sean Peyton.
Nervous Norv as an OC because he always sucks as HC but Norv's vertical game, TT's arm and mobility make coverages very hard against TT.
There are more to be sure but I'm pretty sure the makeshift WR coach turned QB coach probably isn't among them.
MacGruder
08-04-2011, 08:55 AM
I don't think you can say that as a statement of fact.
Why not, Baja?
I think it's much more likely Orton gets injured or continues losing than it is Tebow fails in the NFL as a starter.
Yet Tebow isn't being allowed to start because people claim he does not have the ability to be a successful starter.
Kyle Orton does not have the ability to win games or stay healthy. He doesn't have the tools. IF he plays timid like he did last year to stay healthy he is going to lose games. If he loses games he will be benched.
If he tries to be athletic and keep from losing.. then he will definitely get injured. This is why Orton got injured last season. He tried to do things out of his comfort zone physically because he knew he was running out of rope as a starter.
I like Kubes. I think Kubes was a big part of Shanny's success here and has a solid eye and mind for offenses and utilizing talent.
Kills me but McKid would be good for TT.
Mullen.
Sean Peyton.
Nervous Norv as an OC because he always sucks as HC but Norv's vertical game, TT's arm and mobility make coverages very hard against TT.
<B>There are more to be sure but I'm pretty sure the makeshift WR coach turned QB coach probably isn't among them.
No kidding it's like they do not value TT very much.
BabyTO
08-04-2011, 08:56 AM
theres a bunch on that list that could turn tebow into HOF material. however i dont see a single one that could turn orton into a solid starting QB
Why not, Baja?
I think it's much more likely Orton gets injured or continues losing than it is Tebow fails in the NFL as a starter.
Yet Tebow isn't being allowed to start because people claim he does not have the ability to be a successful starter.
Kyle Orton does not have the ability to win games or stay healthy. He doesn't have the tools. IF he plays timid like he did last year to stay healthy he is going to lose games. If he loses games he will be benched.
If he tries to be athletic and keep from losing.. then he will definitely get injured. This is why Orton got injured last season. He tried to do things out of his comfort zone physically because he knew he was running out of rope as a starter.
Likely, OK. You state he will get injured as if it is a forgone conclusion. Your hero worship for Tim is clouding your judgment
TheElusiveKyleOrton
08-04-2011, 08:59 AM
theres a bunch on that list that could turn tebow into HOF material. however i dont see a single one that could turn orton into a solid starting QB
He already is a solid starting QB. Hate to break the news to you.
It's Tebow that folks are worried about turning into a solid starter... let alone a hall of fame caliber player. But please do continue with the hyperbole. WAY better than facts.
I find it interesting that out of 39 votes only one poster voted for Fox as the best coach for TT.
TheReverend
08-04-2011, 09:02 AM
Shanahan.
But if Shanny was never fired, we would still have Cutler (more than likely) and we would be arguing over our 6th d-coordinator in 6 years and starting out 6-2 but finishing 8-8. There would also be a premature Hillis for HOF thread and someone would suggest hiring Romo as our strength and conditioning coach.
Good times...
:Broncos:
I think we'd be a perennial playoff team at this point, but I agree with the rest Ha!
Voted for Mike because he's done great work with more than one hyper athletic QB who have then specifically thanked him in their HoF speeches.
I don't know of any other coach who's done similar, but I may be wrong.
TheReverend
08-04-2011, 09:03 AM
Last 29 under McD: 11-18
Last 29 games under Shanny: 13-16
Wow...Some mastermind. 2 whopping games better than a 33 year old kid......With a supposed franchise QB, a baby TO at WR & a HOF caliber white tailback (If you listen to some). McD was a whole 2 games worse with a noodle arm QB who folds under pressure and sacks himself, a couple of journeymen WR and a slow cross fit RB who trips on grass blades (if you listen to some).
McD sucked in his first stint as a HC.
Shanny sucks without Elway.
Get over it.
Yup. He seems like the guy that needs to "Get over it" alright
What are you basing this analysis on?
One thing you forget though IMO is that Orton cannot stay healthy. So Tebow is going to have to play at some point anyway. Probably sooner rather than later.. By injury or losing on Orton's part.
Because Tebow still needs the mental refinement to convert his raw playmaking ability from a mad scramble during a broken down play to a logical decision where he attacks the defense in the best possible way. Its a mental hurdle that Mike Vick didn't even start to overcome until last season, years after he entered the league and ran around like a chicken with his head cut off. He finally was put in a place where he could sit, watch, and slow the game down mentally within an offense that fit his skill set.
Even then Vick still got the **** beat out of him because he's so damn small. Giving Tebow the time to slow the game down takes a ton of the injury risks away early in his career because he is built like an ox, while at the same time letting him develop a natural sense for when its best to pass and when its best to run, no the frantic have to run/have to pass decisions he was forced into last season.
Not to mention the fact that it should get our OL and running game one step closer to where we need it to be, so Tebow isn't trying to overcome the failures of his supporting staff while still trying to learn the ropes himself.
Peoples Champ
08-04-2011, 09:04 AM
john elway
MacGruder
08-04-2011, 09:04 AM
Likely, OK. You state he will get injured as if it is a forgone conclusion. Your hero worship for Tim is clouding your judgment
I think you have it backwards. I think your Bronco fandom has given you irrational belief in Orton. You are invested in him - being a good fan.
I think it's much more than "likely" Orton can't stay healthy or win. It's a matter of time. and the other thing I forgot to mention is that McD was carrying Orton. He is going to be far far worse without him. McD is an offensive genius that gave Orton the pieces and system to be successful. he was a role player.
I think you have it backwards. I think your Bronco fandom has given you irrational belief in Orton. You are invested in him - being a good fan.
I think it's much more than "likely" Orton can't stay healthy or win. It's a matter of time. and the other thing I forgot to mention is that McD was carrying Orton. He is going to be far far worse without him. McD is an offensive genius that gave Orton the pieces and system to be successful. he was a role player.
I agreed with "likely" you flat stated he "would" get injured.
BTW I'm not a big Orton fan.
I really really want TT to reach his potential because I do think he is capable of revolutionizing the position. That is one reason I was disheartened that Josh turned out to be a cheater and ruined his career here. Mcd was the perfect guy to maximize's TT's potential.
MacGruder
08-04-2011, 09:10 AM
Not to mention the fact that it should get our OL and running game one step closer to where we need it to be, so Tebow isn't trying to overcome the failures of his supporting staff while still trying to learn the ropes himself.
Thanks for elaborating. I see what you are saying. The problem is I just don't see how people can think Orton is reliable. He doesn't have McD carrying him.. and he will have even more pressure on him to win because of all the losing.
I don't think there is any way to avoid Tebow starting at some point. And he will have no real prep for it.
One thing people forget is the reason Aaron Rodgers COULD sit for 3 years was because he had a GRETA QB ahead of him that NEVER missed games and won.
Orton can't do that... so Tebow is going to be forced to play at some point. Now it's going to be sooner than later.
RaiderH8r
08-04-2011, 09:15 AM
No kidding it's like they do not value TT very much.
It's not even that, I mean even for Orton or the position in general. Maybe this guy will pan out but I don't think our squad is in a position to start tinkering with specialty coaches switching specialties when so many other holes exist. If we have a problem I think having a known quantity in the equation makes decisions easier. If the QB coach position is filled by a respected guy with a track record then that kind of takes him out of the running as "the problem" should one arise. In short, we've got enough holes and question marks. We should be reducing them, not increasing them particularly with respect to the most important position on the O with the ****storm we have circling overhead on the best of days.
MacGruder
08-04-2011, 09:21 AM
I agreed with "likely" you flat stated he "would" get injured.
BTW I'm not a big Orton fan.
I really really want TT to reach his potential because I do think he is capable of revolutionizing the position. That is one reason I was disheartened that Josh turned out to be a cheater and ruined his career here. Mcd was the perfect guy to maximize's TT's potential.
There is always a chance someone could do nealry anything though Baja.. It's not at all realistic to expect it is my point. So "can't" is accurate.
I am not saying you are anti Tebow.. I just think you are blinded like many others in thinking Orton is this reliable rock. I don't know where that belief comes from. I think it has to be wishful thinking. blind optimism from fans. Like the ones that think Orton would be some huge upgrade over Henne in Miami.
From an outsider it seems like this is something inherent with team fanbases. And in the same way I think this same fandom creates the skepticism about Tebow - the unknown.
Thanks for elaborating. I see what you are saying. The problem is I just don't see how people can think Orton is reliable. He doesn't have McD carrying him.. and he will have even more pressure on him to win because of all the losing.
I don't think there is any way to avoid Tebow starting at some point. And he will have no real prep for it.
One thing people forget is the reason Aaron Rodgers COULD sit for 3 years was because he had a GRETA QB ahead of him that NEVER missed games and won.
Orton can't do that... so Tebow is going to be forced to play at some point. Now it's going to be sooner than later.
We do have another QB on the roster. His name is Brady Quinn. He was a first round pick like Tebow and so far a lot of people view him as the best all around QB in camp.
I said last year when we traded for Quinn and signed Tebow that the intent was to use Quinn as a shield in case Orton gets hurt so that we aren't forced to rush Tebow out onto the field. I still think that should be the case if we want to maximize Tebow's chances of being an elite NFL QB.
If Mike Vick never ****ed his life completely up and spent a year watching McNabb from the sidelines he'd never have become the QB he was last year. He'd still be in Atlanta, running around completely out of control and getting knocked out for significant time every season.
We don't need Orton to be great because lets be honest, this team isn't going very far as is anyhow. So the optimal path is to maximize Tebow's sheltered development, roll him out in short yardage and red zone packages some throughout the year so he gets a taste for live game speed, and then let him take the lead from the immediate end of the 2011 season all the way through to the end of the 2012 season. A real off-season with OTAs, full length camps, etc. to build on before being tasked with starting.
That said, I really would prefer to just see them dump Orton and start Tebow. Not because I think Tebow is going to dominate out of the gate or because I think Orton is worthless. Instead I think that because I doubt Elway and co. are willing to give Tebow the time needed to grow. They're focused on Luck after this season short of a miracle season from one of the current three QBs and I don't think any of them have a high probability of giving us.
We do have another QB on the roster. His name is Brady Quinn. He was a first round pick like Tebow and so far a lot of people view him as the best all around QB in camp.
I said last year when we traded for Quinn and signed Tebow that the intent was to use Quinn as a shield in case Orton gets hurt so that we aren't forced to rush Tebow out onto the field. I still think that should be the case if we want to maximize Tebow's chances of being an elite NFL QB.
If Mike Vick never ****ed his life completely up and spent a year watching McNabb from the sidelines he'd never have become the QB he was last year. He'd still be in Atlanta, running around completely out of control and getting knocked out for significant time every season.
We don't need Orton to be great because lets be honest, this team isn't going very far as is anyhow. So the optimal path is to maximize Tebow's sheltered development, roll him out in short yardage and red zone packages some throughout the year so he gets a taste for live game speed, and then let him take the lead from the immediate end of the 2011 season all the way through to the end of the 2012 season. A real off-season with OTAs, full length camps, etc. to build on before being tasked with starting.
That said, I really would prefer to just see them dump Orton and start Tebow. Not because I think Tebow is going to dominate out of the gate or because I think Orton is worthless. Instead I think that because I doubt Elway and co. are willing to give Tebow the time needed to grow. They're focused on Luck after this season short of a miracle season from one of the current three QBs and I don't think any of them have a high probability of giving us.
If you really think the FO is willingly dumping the season to get Luck you are not the poster I thought you were.
sirhcyennek81
08-04-2011, 09:46 AM
I am astounded that, after the debacle of the last 24 games, people still take pot shots at shanny.
That's not a potshot. That is being nostalgic. Shanny was many things, but he was one hell of a coach who knows offense. He was on NFLN the other day talking about Grossman and Beck and started a sentence with "any time you have two guys capable of competing..." I nearly cried.
:Broncos:
Eldorado
08-04-2011, 09:48 AM
That's not a potshot. That is being nostalgic. Shanny was many things, but he was one hell of a coach who knows offense. He was on NFLN the other day talking about Grossman and Beck and started a sentence with "any time you have two guys capable of competing..." I nearly cried.
:Broncos:
Oh. My bad.
Taco John
08-04-2011, 09:51 AM
If you really think the FO is willingly dumping the season to get Luck you are not the poster I thought you were.
I'm not sure where you read that the thought the FO is willingly dumping the season. It presumes that the FO thinks Tebow gives us the best chance to win. The FO doesn't appear to think that at all.
JDB7821
08-04-2011, 09:53 AM
He'll never play for him with the presence of Christian Ponder, but I think Bill Musgrave who is in Minnesota now would be a good fit for him. I'm expecting good things out of Christian Ponder because of how he protects a young quarterback with a run game (Adrian Peterson) and knows not to put ALL of the pressure on him.
BabyTO
08-04-2011, 09:56 AM
He already is a solid starting QB. Hate to break the news to you.
It's Tebow that folks are worried about turning into a solid starter... let alone a hall of fame caliber player. But please do continue with the hyperbole. WAY better than facts.
solid starter? is that why he got benched?
tebow scored more than twice as many touchdowns in his first 3 career starts than orton did in his final 3 starts. he also had a better record in those games. nuff said
I'm not sure where you read that the thought the FO is willingly dumping the season. It presumes that the FO thinks Tebow gives us the best chance to win. The FO doesn't appear to think that at all.
Drek - I think Orton is worthless. Instead I think that because I doubt Elway and co. are willing to give Tebow the time needed to grow.<b> They're focused on Luck after this season</b> short of a miracle season from one of the current three QBs and I don't think any of them have a high probability of giving us.
How do you get Luck unless you have the #1 pick?
There is always a chance someone could do nealry anything though Baja.. It's not at all realistic to expect it is my point. So "can't" is accurate.
I am not saying you are anti Tebow.. I just think you are blinded like many others in thinking Orton is this reliable rock. I don't know where that belief comes from. I think it has to be wishful thinking. blind optimism from fans. Like the ones that think Orton would be some huge upgrade over Henne in Miami.
From an outsider it seems like this is something inherent with team fanbases. And in the same way I think this same fandom creates the skepticism about Tebow - the unknown.
Did you even read my post?
MacGruder
08-04-2011, 10:48 AM
Did you even read my post?
Yes sir. In the previous post it seemed you were indicating you disagreed with the skepticism of Orton.
Then you said you didn't like Orton.. but that doesn't mean you didn't want Orton to start. So what is your stance? Who do you think has the bast chance of staying healthy and winning?
Maximus
08-04-2011, 11:05 AM
Rich Gannon
If you really think the FO is willingly dumping the season to get Luck you are not the poster I thought you were.
I don't think they're willing to dump the season. I do think that if they had their druthers they'd have sent Orton out of town for a #2 and then made Tebow sink or swim.
Chances are he'd do a bit more sinking than swimming, even in an optimistic projection. Here's why:
Our OL is dubious at best.
Saying the same about our running backs would probably be a compliment.
Our WRs are top heavy with those best players all having some injury question marks in their careers before.
Our CBs are either old or of questionable skill.
Our safeties are a high energy vet who can no longer cover and a bunch of rookies or near enough to rookies.
We're converting the front seven from 3-4 to 4-3 with only five weeks before the games count.
So Orton or Tebow, what you think the chances are we don't pick in the top 10 again? At that point two seconds go a long way towards getting the #1 overall.
Yes sir. In the previous post it seemed you were indicating you disagreed with the skepticism of Orton.
Then you said you didn't like Orton.. but that doesn't mean you didn't want Orton to start. So what is your stance? Who do you think has the bast chance of staying healthy and winning?
Let me be clear.
I want to see TT play as bad as the next guy because I think he will bring excitement to Broncos football but not if he is not ready and gets caught up in the numbers game that so many QBs do and lose out on his chance to reach his full potential. If he truly is not NFL ready to take over the team he will lose a ton of games and the Broncos will likely draft Luck if they get the chance.
Just because you think TT will be great out of the chute is not a good enough reason for me to be 100% behind starting him no matter what.
Actually it would not surprise me if Denver traded Orton and started Quinn.
Bottom line for me I want to see some actual game (pre-season) play before I make my call as to which QB I want to start.
Now does that sound reasonable to you?
I don't think they're willing to dump the season. I do think that if they had their druthers they'd have sent Orton out of town for a #2 and then made Tebow sink or swim.
Chances are he'd do a bit more sinking than swimming, even in an optimistic projection. Here's why:
Our OL is dubious at best.
Saying the same about our running backs would probably be a compliment.
Our WRs are top heavy with those best players all having some injury question marks in their careers before.
Our CBs are either old or of questionable skill.
Our safeties are a high energy vet who can no longer cover and a bunch of rookies or near enough to rookies.
We're converting the front seven from 3-4 to 4-3 with only five weeks before the games count.
So Orton or Tebow, what you think the chances are we don't pick in the top 10 again? At that point two seconds go a long way towards getting the #1 overall.
This is the same personal you thought highly of last season plus Doom, Ayers and all the draft picks yet now they are chopped liver.
We are going to better than many are here are projecting IMO
Oh and the cost of Luck will be a lot more that a high first and two seconds.
MacGruder
08-04-2011, 11:34 AM
But again.. it's not just that I think Tebow will be good.. my point is that people act like there is an alternative to Tebow. This is something even I forget a lot.
Because Tebow is raw and Orton put up a lot of numbers last season there seems to be this bizarre perception that Orton is a legitimate alternative to Tebow. I really don't see how anyone can justify that Orton lost nearly every game last year. I don't see why we shoud expect that to change.
I guess it comes down to people thinking Fox is a better coach than McD.. in some ways he may be.. but Josh was a GREAT offensive coach. Where Fox helps I think losing MCD is going to hurt equally.
One thing though that no one considered last season when McD took so much blame was all the injuries the Broncos had last season. That could make a difference.
You make some good points thought about starting Tebow too soon hurting his development... but the way I feel about this is that you really can't develop on the bench because you don't get the reps. This is what Tebow needs to get better. Tebow also doesn't have a great guy to learn from. Orton isn't a great QB and refuses to even help him.
Quinn is an alternative if he can win some games. You are right though we will see in the preseason games.
It's weird though because last season Sam Bradford was awful against backups in preaseason and played great with the starters. So even preseason games can be really deceptive.
Tombstone RJ
08-04-2011, 11:43 AM
But again.. it's not just that I think Tebow will be good.. my point is that people act like there is an alternative to Tebow. This is something even I forget a lot.
Because Tebow is raw and Orton put up a lot of numbers last season there seems to be this bizarre perception that Orton is a legitimate alternative to Tebow. I really don't see how anyone can justify that Orton lost nearly every game last year. I don't see why we shoud expect that to change.
I guess it comes down to people thinking Fox is a better coach than McD.. in some ways he may be.. but Josh was a GREAT offensive coach. Where Fox helps I think losing MCD is going to hurt equally.
One thing though that no one considered last season when McD took so much blame was all the injuries the Broncos had last season. That could make a difference.
You make some good points thought about starting Tebow too soon hurting his development... but the way I feel about this is that you really can't develop on the bench because you don't get the reps. This is what Tebow needs to get better. Tebow also doesn't have a great guy to learn from. Orton isn't a great QB and refuses to even help him.
Quinn is an alternative if he can win some games. You are right though we will see in the preseason games.
It's weird though because last season Sam Bradford was awful against backups in preaseason and played great with the starters. So even preseason games can be really deceptive.
we all know how you feel McGruber, you like Tebow. However, Tebow still needs to beat out Orton in order to win the starting QB position. If he can't do this in practice then the coaches have no choice but to play Orton becuase Orton has won the position as the starting QB.
Preseason will be a gas to watch. I'm thinking Orton will play with the starters, and then yes, Tebow will also be given a chance to play with the starters. The way I see it, Fox has the authority to determine which QB plays and in the preseason, I'm thinking Fox is gonna let his gamer get some real snaps with the starters.
I mean, if Orton is outshining Tebow in practice then why risk an injury to him in a meaningless preseason game, right? Orton will lead some drives in the first quarter, move the ball, the Broncos will do one of three things: punt, kick a fg or score a td. The sooner the first team offense scores with Orton, the sooner Fox will sit him and bring in Tebow for some real analysis.
Anyhoo, it will be fun times in Broncos land...
RaiderH8r
08-04-2011, 12:27 PM
How do you get Luck unless you have the #1 pick?
You pick second behind Carolina...again?
This is the same personal you thought highly of last season plus Doom, Ayers and all the draft picks yet now they are chopped liver.
We are going to better than many are here are projecting IMO
Oh and the cost of Luck will be a lot more that a high first and two seconds.
I still like the personnel and have said on here that I wouldn't be surprised if we execute a very fast turnaround. But the shortened camp doesn't help at all, as a previous post of mine focused on how we're arguably the most hurt team by the lockout in the NFL. Add the generally only marginal improvements we've done and there is reason for pessimism.
I still think we're a legit threat to pull a worst to first. But if we do that its because suddenly everything else other than QB has righted itself and/or one of the QBs has pulled off a miracle.
In the case of the later we're set. In the case of the former Elway will be forced to play out Tebow's potential on the original longer term track McDaniels set up when he got Orton and Quinn to buffer Tebow for a couple seasons. I think Elway's view is that he'd rather put Tebow out there to sink or swim, knowing that Orton doesn't win you football games, he just generally doesn't lose them either. We likely aren't a team real concerned about our QB "not losing" games. He wants a QB who can win them. If Tebow can be that guy then he'll stick with Tebow, but he wants to find out post-haste so he doesn't miss out on what he likely views as the best QB in the near future (Luck) while he waits a year with Orton for Tebow to mature.
And yes, I'd agree that Luck may well cost more than a 1st and two 2nds. But a 1st and two 2nds in 2012 coupled with a 2013 1st rounder is as enticing a package as anyone could put on the table, which I don't doubt Elway would have put up if that was required to land Luck following a poor starting season by Tebow.
I still like the personnel and have said on here that I wouldn't be surprised if we execute a very fast turnaround. But the shortened camp doesn't help at all, as a previous post of mine focused on how we're arguably the most hurt team by the lockout in the NFL. Add the generally only marginal improvements we've done and there is reason for pessimism.
I think a few teams will not miss a lick but the bulk of the NFL will suffer to more or less the same degree and with the exception of GB we don't play the teams that won't miss a beat through week 10. That is enough time to balance things out with the advantaged teams
I still think we're a legit threat to pull a worst to first. But if we do that its because suddenly everything else other than QB has righted itself and/or one of the QBs has pulled off a miracle.
If the rest of the team plays significantly better (mainly defense) it will not take miracle play at QB, just good play ( like Orton has shown he is capable of)
In the case of the later we're set. In the case of the former Elway will be forced to play out Tebow's potential on the original longer term track McDaniels set up when he got Orton and Quinn to buffer Tebow for a couple seasons. I think Elway's view is that he'd rather put Tebow out there to sink or swim, knowing that Orton doesn't win you football games, he just generally doesn't lose them either. We likely aren't a team real concerned about our QB "not losing" games. He wants a QB who can win them. If Tebow can be that guy then he'll stick with Tebow, but he wants to find out post-haste so he doesn't miss out on what he likely views as the best QB in the near future (Luck) while he waits a year with Orton for Tebow to mature.
This is why I think all this early hand wringing about which QB will start is nonsense. The point you make will become much clearer during preseason.
And yes, I'd agree that Luck may well cost more than a 1st and two 2nds. But a 1st and two 2nds in 2012 coupled with a 2013 1st rounder is as enticing a package as anyone could put on the table, which I don't doubt Elway would have put up if that was required to land Luck following a poor starting season by Tebow.
That's about what Chicago paid for Cutler. I hope it is not us that pay that for Luck
bold
TheElusiveKyleOrton
08-04-2011, 01:12 PM
solid starter? is that why he got benched?
tebow scored more than twice as many touchdowns in his first 3 career starts than orton did in his final 3 starts. he also had a better record in those games. nuff said
Well he was injured. But don't let facts get in the way of your really neat argument.
I think a few teams will not miss a lick but the bulk of the NFL will suffer to more or less the same degree and with the exception of GB we don't play the teams that won't miss a beat through week 10. That is enough time to balance things out with the advantaged teams
I really doubt the degree of unpreparedness will be uniform outside of a few.
Will San Diego miss much of a beat staying in basically the same systems with the same key players?
Will Kansas City suddenly forget how to play the exact same style of football they played last year for 16 games?
There is a reason why new HCs get an extra week of training camp. It takes more time to install a new system and even then everyone acknowledges that its the 2nd year of a new system when you really start to see what its trying to be. We lost out on not just that extra week, but several weeks every new HC normally gets.
On top of that we're installing a radically new style of defensive scheme, one with front seven play centered around a guy who missed all of last season and a rookie.
Offensively for all the lip service McCoy pays to minimizing changes we all should know that isn't truly the case. We will be a much more run oriented team and we'll have to get our very young OL with very little in the way of veteran backups ready to go in this new style of attack on short time.
Add a very real QB controversy and a lot of young guys playing increasingly important roles and you get a team that really needed the extra time to sort **** out.
We're at a very real disadvantage. You know me, I'm an eternal optimist. But from a realistic standpoint all I'm really expecting out of this season is for some strong late season growth to be heading in the right direction for 2012. I'm hoping for more, but expectations higher than that are just unfair to the situation this team has been put in.
If the rest of the team plays significantly better (mainly defense) it will not take miracle play at QB, just good play ( like Orton has shown he is capable of)
I outlined that very situation. At that point Elway is tied to giving Tebow a shot in 2012, 2013, etc.. Some time before his rookie contract is up they have to let him on the field. I think Elway views it as the longer that takes the longer he's waiting until he can have a real franchise QB. All things being equal he'd prefer for that to be Luck. So time's a wastin' for Timmy's baptism by fire.
As for Orton, I doubt Elway sees any kind of long term option there. He doesn't win games. Elway will not define his time here with a game managing QB.
This is why I think all this early hand wringing about which QB will start is nonsense. The point you make will become much clearer during preseason.
Sure. A lot of things still need to be sorted and people just need to chill out. But if the FO would come out with a strong affirmative message of "We believe in Tebow but we're going to let camp and pre-season dictate the depth chart. When Tebow is ready he'll get his opportunity" early last week this entire kerfuffle would have blown over quickly. Instead they clam up and mince words about "we haven't made up our minds yet". Even if they don't really mean it pay some lip service to the "potential" of Tebow. Its all the fans want, to know that he will get a shot to take the reigns at some point.
That's about what Chicago paid for Cutler. I hope it is not us that pay that for Luck
And I don't think Elway would bat an eye at paying it if he'd seen enough on the field to know that none of our current three QBs were going to be elite NFL passers.
C130Herkload
08-04-2011, 01:50 PM
Urban Meyer
I concur.
BabyTO
08-04-2011, 02:16 PM
Well he was injured. But don't let facts get in the way of your really neat argument.
bruised ribs. orton is the epitome of toughness Hilarious!
unless he broke all his 10 fingers and got stabbed in both eyes there really isnt any excuse for his pathetic 9 completion performance against the chiefs in week 13 and his 4 turnover performance in week 14 in a blowout loss against the pathetic cards defense