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MacGruder
07-29-2011, 09:42 PM
Eff that. Let Tebow spinning the ball from day one. If he gets the job done, problem solved. If he doesn't, you start thinking real strongly about getting to the hunt for a Luck or Barkley. Time to find out what we have in Tebow. I will cheer my ass off for him, but I am a show me guy as well. Show us all!

I think you are missing my point though.. I just think what guys do in training camp is meaningless... Just because Orton, Quinn or anyone else does things that look good in training camp doesn't mean it will translate at all to the field.

I mean for the love of god.. look how many guys look great all through college and stink in the pros. How is a non contact short scrimmage any different?

It's like beating Michael Jordan in a game of horse (even in his prime) and deeming yourself the best basketball player in the world. There are probably a lot of guys who have no business on a NBA court that could beat NBA players in a game of horse.. That's these passing practices to me.

Agamemnon
07-29-2011, 09:47 PM
I think you are missing my point though.. I just think what guys do in training camp is meaningless... Just because Orton, Quinn or anyone else does things that look good in training camp doesn't mean it will translate at all to the field.

I mean for the love of god.. look how many guys look great all through college and stink in the pros. How is a non contact short scrimmage any different?

It's like beating Michael Jordan in a game of horse (even in his prime) and deeming yourself the best basketball player in the world. There are probably a lot of guys who have no business on a NBA court that could beat NBA players in a game of horse.. That's these passing practices to me.

Not a bad analogy. The idea that Tebow, who has so many advantages in other areas, needs to conclusively out pass Orton in passing drills to be made the starter just doesn't make sense to me.

bombay
07-29-2011, 09:49 PM
The Broncos might be able to get a 4th or 5th rounder for Tebow, but I doubt it.

Agamemnon
07-29-2011, 09:50 PM
The Broncos might be able to get a 4th or 5th rounder for Tebow, but I doubt it.

Err...why would we trade Tebow?

TailgateNut
07-29-2011, 09:55 PM
Err...why would we trade Tebow?


because somebody might be fooled into thinking he can actually become something one day;D

Mogulseeker
07-29-2011, 09:56 PM
At this point, I think there are a number of teams that would actually offer a first for Tebow.

MacGruder
07-29-2011, 09:59 PM
Not a bad analogy. The idea that Tebow, who has so many advantages in other areas, needs to conclusively out pass Orton in passing drills to be made the starter just doesn't make sense to me.

I think another good one would be a competitive marksman and a Navy seal both being sent into enemy territory to take out a dozen terrorists..

I bet there are some amazing geriatric marksmen.. even better than the Navy seals. That would be Orton's equivalent. haha Put the elderly guy in a real world hostile scenario and he is dead meat.

Agamemnon
07-29-2011, 10:00 PM
because somebody might be fooled into thinking he can actually become something one day;D

Some people are just too stupid to live...

Bob's your Information Minister
07-29-2011, 10:01 PM
At this point, I think there are a number of teams that would actually offer a first for Tebow.

The Toronto Argonauts?

TailgateNut
07-29-2011, 10:03 PM
Some people are just too stupid to live...


:rofl:

Blueflame
07-29-2011, 10:05 PM
I think you are missing my point though.. I just think what guys do in training camp is meaningless... Just because Orton, Quinn or anyone else does things that look good in training camp doesn't mean it will translate at all to the field.

I mean for the love of god.. look how many guys look great all through college and stink in the pros. How is a non contact short scrimmage any different?

It's like beating Michael Jordan in a game of horse (even in his prime) and deeming yourself the best basketball player in the world. There are probably a lot of guys who have no business on a NBA court that could beat NBA players in a game of horse.. That's these passing practices to me.

In 1999, Bubby Brister obviously thought the same thing.... he believed he was the heir-apparent to Elway and had the luxury of "mailing in" the entire preseason. He was wrong.

Blueflame
07-29-2011, 10:09 PM
At this point, I think there are a number of teams that would actually offer a first for Tebow.

This is a good thing (that he's not "generally" viewed as "not worth a first round draft pick")... because we spent a first on him. :P

Finger Roll
07-29-2011, 10:11 PM
In 1999, Bubby Brister obviously thought the same thing.... he believed he was the heir-apparent to Elway and had the luxury of "mailing in" the entire preseason. He was wrong.

Preseason is much different. The other team is giving it 100%

MacGruder
07-29-2011, 10:12 PM
In 1999, Bubby Brister obviously thought the same thing.... he believed he was the heir-apparent to Elway and had the luxury of "mailing in" the entire preseason. He was wrong.

It's not about effort.. it's about coaches inability to understand what works on the training field in different scenarios than actual games.

If the training camp is played like an actual game then it will translate.. and then there is no "judgment call" really made. But that isn't how it is done.

Like I said.. coaches can't even determine who can really play based on 4 year careers in college. How is a non contact scrimmage going to really tell them any more?

As I have said before.. Orton and Quinn appeared to outplay Tebow in training camp last season and he outplayed them in real games with less experience and in a terrible situation. Nothing really illustrates i better.

To use another NBA analogy.. Charles Barkley always says there are tons of guys who are great shooters in practice.. but when they get in real games it completely disappears. Nothing illustrates that better than Orton versus Tebow...

Agamemnon
07-29-2011, 10:16 PM
It's not about effort.. it's about coaches inability to understand what works on the training field in different scenarios than actual games.

If the training camp is played like an actual game then it will translate.. and then there is no "judgment call" really made. But that isn't how it is done.

Like I said.. coaches can't even determine who can really play based on 4 year careers in college. How is a non contact scrimmage going to really tell them any more?

As I have said before.. Orton and Quinn appeared to outplay Tebow in training camp last season and he outplayed them in real games with less experience and in a terrible situation. Nothing really illustrates i better.

To use another NBA analogy.. Charles Barkley always says there are tons of guys who are great shooters in practice.. but when they get in real games it completely disappears. Nothing illustrates that better than Orton versus Tebow...

Quinn didn't outplay Tebow in training camp.

Finger Roll
07-29-2011, 10:18 PM
Agree. Who cares how Orton plays flag football when most of the defenders are playing half assed

MacGruder
07-29-2011, 10:20 PM
Quinn didn't outplay Tebow in training camp.

I remember people saying Quinn was a better passer than Tebow last training camp. It wasn't until the preseason games where I think Tebow separated decisively.

But keep in mind.. I was not at these practices. This was based on possibly biased reporting from ant-Tebow people. There was a huge backlash against Tebow's popularity last preseason.

SonOfLe-loLang
07-29-2011, 10:28 PM
because somebody might be fooled into thinking he can actually become something one day;D

This is a ****ing joke. At ABSOLUTE WORST, he's the best goalline threat in the league. THE BEST. As ive said many times, the Broncos problems for the past ten years have been at their worst in goalline situations. When Tebow's goalline package was inserted in that Jets game, the problems disappeared overnight. In fact, I can't even recall him failing near the goal line. Can anyone?

Now, if he can do it near the goal line, i have zero doubt that he can also do this on 3 and 1, 3rd and 2's. Tim has a unique ability to draw defenses in, and still pick his spots to run for tough yardage. And obviously he can pass for yardage too, which will FOREVER keep defenses off balance. What makes him even more unique than a guy like Vick in this situation? He's 250 pounds of solid muscle and can push a pile.

And you would trade him for a 5th round pick? Youre a ****ing moron.

RaiderH8r
07-29-2011, 10:33 PM
because somebody might be fooled into thinking he can actually become something one day;D

Somebody was fooled into thinking Orton is a winning prospect so stranger things have happened.

Broncos4Life
07-29-2011, 10:41 PM
This is a ****ing joke. At ABSOLUTE WORST, he's the best goalline threat in the league. THE BEST. As ive said many times, the Broncos problems for the past ten years have been at their worst in goalline situations. When Tebow's goalline package was inserted in that Jets game, the problems disappeared overnight. In fact, I can't even recall him failing near the goal line. Can anyone?

Now, if he can do it near the goal line, i have zero doubt that he can also do this on 3 and 1, 3rd and 2's. Tim has a unique ability to draw defenses in, and still pick his spots to run for tough yardage. And obviously he can pass for yardage too, which will FOREVER keep defenses off balance. What makes him even more unique than a guy like Vick in this situation? He's 250 pounds of solid muscle and can push a pile.

And you would trade him for a 5th round pick? Youre a ****ing moron.

If that is true i would ban that mother ****er! **** Orton and anybody who sides with him!

TailgateNut
07-30-2011, 01:02 AM
If that is true i would ban that mother ****er! **** Orton and anybody who sides with him!


ooooh, tough guy.LOL


I'd like to ban all Tebonites from attending the games. They majority of them are clueless drooling idiots.

Broncos4Life
07-30-2011, 02:05 AM
ooooh, tough guy.LOL


I'd like to ban all Tebonites from attending the games. They majority of them are clueless drooling idiots.

Yeah... Thats right! I can't wait to see how many games Denver wins with Kyle Orton! His great leadership and devotion to attempt to win at all costs is really going to take this team to heights not seen in the last 6 years. It sure was tough trying to keep him from all the teams out there that needed a QB. Phew... A close one it was. What would this team do if Tebow had to lead it.... Aw screw it! Lets just throw in the towel and play for Luck! Well with Orton we really won't have to. We'll be playing for Luck all season!:sunshine:

TheElusiveKyleOrton
07-30-2011, 05:50 AM
I think you are missing my point though.. I just think what guys do in training camp is meaningless... Just because Orton, Quinn or anyone else does things that look good in training camp doesn't mean it will translate at all to the field.

Just to make sure I follow your general argument here...

It doesn't matter what happens in practice, because it may not translate to the field. But a guy who IS NOT performing well in practice should be handed the reigns because... because...

That's where we run into trouble with your argument.

Because... we're sure he'll produce? Because you said so?

Sorry kid, it doesn't work that way. I know you love you some Tebow, and that's fine, but the guy should earn it just like everyone else. Ol' Kyle is out there earning his. But Tebow should be given the team because he's scattershot on the practice field but people like him more?

Hilarious!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
07-30-2011, 05:52 AM
This is a ****ing joke. At ABSOLUTE WORST, he's the best goalline threat in the league. THE BEST. As ive said many times, the Broncos problems for the past ten years have been at their worst in goalline situations. When Tebow's goalline package was inserted in that Jets game, the problems disappeared overnight. In fact, I can't even recall him failing near the goal line. Can anyone?

Now, if he can do it near the goal line, i have zero doubt that he can also do this on 3 and 1, 3rd and 2's. Tim has a unique ability to draw defenses in, and still pick his spots to run for tough yardage. And obviously he can pass for yardage too, which will FOREVER keep defenses off balance. What makes him even more unique than a guy like Vick in this situation? He's 250 pounds of solid muscle and can push a pile.

And you would trade him for a 5th round pick? Youre a ****ing moron.

Kyle Orton is 2:1 Touchdown to Interception, and you'd trade him for a fifth round pick?

****ing moron.

MacGruder
07-30-2011, 06:29 AM
Just to make sure I follow your general argument here...

It doesn't matter what happens in practice, because it may not translate to the field. But a guy who IS NOT performing well in practice should be handed the reigns because... because...

That's where we run into trouble with your argument.

Because... we're sure he'll produce? Because you said so?

Sorry kid, it doesn't work that way. I know you love you some Tebow, and that's fine, but the guy should earn it just like everyone else. Ol' Kyle is out there earning his. But Tebow should be given the team because he's scattershot on the practice field but people like him more?

Hilarious!

Tebow showed his ability in actually games last season... Orton showed his inability. Why do you think Orton was demanding a trade? He must know Tebow is better too.

Also.. Orton aand Quinn HAVE had their chance.. contrary to what Quinn says. They had their shot at starting QB and they have done nothing.

Gort
07-30-2011, 06:51 AM
for all of the Orton nuthuggers out there, do us all a favor and google (or bing) the followings words together and then tell us all exactly why Orton should be the starting QB...

"3rd down" conversions orton

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/entry_photo_images/745135/gyi0062709653.jpg

Agamemnon
07-30-2011, 06:57 AM
for all of the Orton nuthuggers out there, do us all a favor and google (or bing) the followings words together and then tell me why exactly Orton should be the starting QB...

"3rd down" conversions orton

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/entry_photo_images/745135/gyi0062709653.jpg

You do realize that anyone who is capable of rooting for such a steaming pile of mediocrity is immune to evidence or rational thought don't you? Seriously you are dealing with people with reptile brains and should probably act accordingly.

Bob's your Information Minister
07-30-2011, 07:00 AM
You can't blame Orton for that play. Hali beat Clady like a drum. Barely even laid a glove on him.

Cito Pelon
07-30-2011, 07:10 AM
Was at camp today. Orton looked pretty good outside of a few miscommunications with his receivers and a few picks to Miller. Tebow practiced a bit on the far field and had a few picks himself. Didn't notice how Quinn did as much because him and Orton were alternating with Orton getting the majority of snaps.

All three of them had some great throws. Orton was his usual self, but there was no pressure in his face and rarely did he have to throw without fully setting his feet.

Tebow had a number of nice deep outs and he has improved his short pass accuracy a bit. I am pretty sure I saw Decker drop a perfectly thown long ball of his in WR/DB drills. Tebow is going through his reads about a second slower than Orton and Quinn. The times that I saw him hurry he made bad throws. And he still has that long delivery too. Maybe a bit shorter than last year, but he has to lead his receiver an extra five yards to make the completion because of its length.

I think Orton will move the ball between the 20s pretty well this year, but Tebow will be better in the red zone because of his running ability. It's gonna be a long year either way it seems.

Thanks. I heard Tebow looked more "comfortable" on Day 2. Also heard he had "the pass of the day" to Decker.

That's good to hear, I'm looking forward to a heated competition.

OABB
07-30-2011, 07:42 AM
because somebody might be fooled into thinking he can actually become something one day;D

i like your " wait and see" attitude. so many people are such biased pussies.

SonOfLe-loLang
07-30-2011, 08:33 AM
Kyle Orton is 2:1 Touchdown to Interception, and you'd trade him for a fifth round pick?

****ing moron.

I don't believe I said I'd trade orton for a fifth, but I also don't understand the point of keeping him around

StugotsIII
07-30-2011, 08:38 AM
You can't blame Orton for that play. Hali beat Clady like a drum. Barely even laid a glove on him.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o22/niqua230/GiFS/th_SHOOTYOURSELFARI.gif

Bronx33
07-30-2011, 08:39 AM
I kinda look at it like this ortons game absolutely depends on the offensive line keeping everything off him that's when orton usually screws things up cause he has zero speed to get out of trouble and keep a play alive he also like to throw into coverage when on the run.

Tebows game at this point is wide open and open to growth and he does have the speed to get out of trouble and potentially keep a play alive that being said tebows future depends on his coaches tutoring him along correctly.

Ortons experience in the league over the years really hasn't changed much in his game and looking good in training camp has nothing to do with regular season when the real pressure comes the question is which guy can move and keep a play alive? it should be a very interesting season at the QB position to say the least. ( i am not expecting a whole lot)

bowtown
07-30-2011, 08:43 AM
I don't believe I said I'd trade orton for a fifth, but I also don't understand the point of keeping him around

^^^

If he's not traded before the season, I'm going to have some serious doubts about this FO. I can't find a single reason to keep him at this point. I'm actually worried we've already done some team chemistry damage with the Dolphins debacle. The sooner we get him out of here, the better at this point.

wolverine
07-30-2011, 09:03 AM
FO has Effed up.
They've given Orton all the cards. He's been led to believe he can start AND earn 8 million by staying in Denver.
Orton should have been demoted to #2 from the get go. That would have given him the incentive to restructure his contract for Miami, or any team where he could start.

TheReverend
07-30-2011, 09:04 AM
FO has Effed up.
They've given Orton all the cards. He's been led to believe he can start AND earn 8 million by staying in Denver.
Orton should have been demoted to #2 from the get go. That would have given him the incentive to restructure his contract for Miami, or any team where he could start.

Yup

mkporter
07-30-2011, 09:09 AM
You do realize that anyone who is capable of rooting for such a steaming pile of mediocrity is immune to evidence or rational thought don't you? Seriously you are dealing with people with reptile brains and should probably act accordingly.

I don't know about other people, but I root for any bronco player to do well.

2KBack
07-30-2011, 09:16 AM
I don't know about other people, but I root for any bronco player to do well.

pretty much...even if I don't like them as a person.

It's a free for all when they leave though

MacGruder
07-30-2011, 09:18 AM
I don't know about other people, but I root for any bronco player to do well.

Orton has snow jobbed you.

You need to watch each and every Bronco loss under Orton from last season then read this nonsense people are spewing about Orton "earning" the starting job in training camp. LOL

I defy anyone to do that.. even Kyle Orton...

TailgateNut
07-30-2011, 09:36 AM
Orton has snow jobbed you.

You need to watch each and every Bronco loss under Orton from last season then read this nonsense people are spewing about Orton "earning" the starting job in training camp. LOL

I defy anyone to do that.. even Kyle Orton...


Good grief, STFU already. You are as annoying as raiderfan!

baja
07-30-2011, 09:39 AM
Orton has snow jobbed you.

You need to watch each and every Bronco loss under Orton from last season then read this nonsense people are spewing about Orton "earning" the starting job in training camp. LOL

I defy anyone to do that.. even Kyle Orton...

Dude you are becoming the new jhns only you are on Timmy's nut sack while jhns prefers the more salty Cutler nut sack.

Jay3
07-30-2011, 10:01 AM
FO has Effed up.
They've given Orton all the cards. He's been led to believe he can start AND earn 8 million by staying in Denver.
Orton should have been demoted to #2 from the get go. That would have given him the incentive to restructure his contract for Miami, or any team where he could start.

Good point. They should have said "We're prolly going to bench you" to get him to reduce his salary demand to Miami.

Gort
07-30-2011, 10:09 AM
You can't blame Orton for that play. Hali beat Clady like a drum. Barely even laid a glove on him.

if you think my post is restricted to just that one play, then you really are a pinhead.

the 2010 Denver Broncos were 67 of 207 on 3rd down conversions. that's a success rate of 32.4%. the only teams worse were SF (31.9%), Carolina (30.4%), Washington (29.3%), and Arizona (27.8%).

in comparison, the Saints converted 48.8% of the time on 3rd down and NE converted 48.2% of the time.

this team needs to be much better in those situations. in my opinion, Orton has limited playmaking ability when he has to improvise. Tebow doesn't.

HAT
07-30-2011, 10:20 AM
I don't know about other people, but I root for any bronco player to do well.

Well, yeah....Bronco fans do that.

Aggie & MacGuanoNonBronco are just here for the Teebz.

Broncos4tw
07-30-2011, 10:21 AM
As we saw from practice versus the season last year, smooth performance in camp really didn't translate into smooth play under pressure. To put it simply, the biggest problem with Orton is he has the highest failure rate when we need him to be at his best.

Third downs, inside the 20s.. when it's crunch time, he folds. Literally in many cases. I've seen him collapse several times either by running into his own player, or not being touched at ALL. That's not effort. That's not fire. With that sort of mentality, he'll never win an important game.

So I suppose at the end of the day.. will Orton win us 10 games this year? No. So is there a reason to play him? Not really. Even if Tebow only won us 5 games, we'd at least know where we stand, and if we need to move on from that stretch of a draft pick and get someone else. Orton has no future here. He is not SB material. Only way we win it with him is if we are sporting a franchise RB or superior defense. So in a nutshell.. not happening.

I hate the thought of a losing season. But I can't see a winning one either way, so why bother playing Orton at all?

barryr
07-30-2011, 10:25 AM
I'm ok with the Broncos holding out and not just giving Orton away. With a team needing more talent, they can not afford to give away players that other teams may covet.

It is possible once teams have pretty much their teams in place and playing preseason games, they are not happy with their QB spots or an injury or 2 occurs. So Orton still has value at this point.

But I would rather see Tebow in there getting most of the snaps and be the starter, but I understand why the Broncos are not playing it that way right now.

errand
07-30-2011, 11:02 AM
No I would rather we trade him but apparently he's too stubborn to work out a contract. For his stubbornness I would reward him with a seat on the bench.

Son if your boss came into work monday and said you're still with the company but you're getting demoted and you gotta take a pay cut you'd be all cool with it?

footstepsfrom#27
07-30-2011, 11:07 AM
Who cares who does what the first days of training camp? 547 posts for that... ROFL!

errand
07-30-2011, 11:09 AM
Tebow isn't going to walk next year. Tebow doesn't cost 8.8 million dollars. Tebow is an unknown commodity. We invested a 1st round pick in Tebow.

None of those things is true of Orton. Again why don't you get what is so obvious to the rest of us?

No, we just traded a Qb we drafted in the first round for him....and why you're afraid of Tebow having to EARN the starter's gig is beyond me. Handing the starter's job to an "unknown" commodity sounds pretty stupid to me...making said "unknown" commodity compete for the job and earn it outright sounds like a smarter plan....but that's just one man's opinion

snowspot66
07-30-2011, 11:10 AM
Son if your boss came into work monday and said you're still with the company but you're getting demoted and you gotta take a pay cut you'd be all cool with it?

Poor analogy. Orton would be the starter in Miami and have a multi-year deal worth more in total than his one year here. He sits on the bench for a year and you can bet he'll be earning even less next year. He's just shooting himself in the foot.

errand
07-30-2011, 11:13 AM
You know what will happen?

Orton will look good in practice. Tebow will look good in games. Some people will say well Orton looks great in practice, he is a 7 year vet, Tebow only have 3 starts, yada yada yada.

Tebow will win the job. Ortonites will despair and we have the next great OM debate for the next 8 months.

:Broncos:

That's possible...then again it's possible too that Orton beats Tebow out, and he plays well, Fox fixes our defense and OL and we win enough games to make playoffs.

You sound like you're of the mind set that the coaching staff has it in for certain players and will play inferior ones over them for spite?

Mogulseeker
07-30-2011, 11:18 AM
We need a DT to have a good defense. Not even an option. You can make it with a weak Strong Safety or weak WLB, but a solid DT, a solide RE (like Doom) and a solid CB (like Champ) are basically requirements.

bombay
07-30-2011, 11:19 AM
That's possible...then again it's possible too that Orton beats Tebow out, and he plays well, Fox fixes our defense and OL and we win enough games to make playoffs.

You sound like you're of the mind set that the coaching staff has it in for certain players and will play inferior ones over them for spite?

Exactly. It's safe to assume the coaches will do what they can to win the most possible games.

errand
07-30-2011, 11:42 AM
Poor analogy. Orton would be the starter in Miami and have a multi-year deal worth more in total than his one year here. He sits on the bench for a year and you can bet he'll be earning even less next year. He's just shooting himself in the foot.

again, why does everyone keep thinking that if Orton stays this year that he's not gonna start? He could very well win the starting QB gig and play well, and turn that into a starting gig elsewhere when he becomes a free agent.

errand
07-30-2011, 11:48 AM
Exactly. It's safe to assume the coaches will do what they can to win the most possible games.

I agree..coaches wanna win...and if you cannot help them achieve their goal of winning games, they will not play you...even if you're a highly touted 1st round pick.

I find it odd that alot of fans on here are so down on Orton like this QB quandry is all his fault? And yet these same ****ing clowns have wondered if we should pursue idiots and non-talents like Mike McMahon, or Chris Simms.....

errand
07-30-2011, 11:56 AM
So two games, one we were competitive, one we were not, the only difference being QB, tells you nothing, even though this discussion is about those two players.

Orton was on road, Tebow was at home...huge difference there alone. San diego generally beats the hell outta us in SD, and we generally win in Denver....who the QB is rarely mattered

snowspot66
07-30-2011, 11:58 AM
again, why does everyone keep thinking that if Orton stays this year that he's not gonna start? He could very well win the starting QB gig and play well, and turn that into a starting gig elsewhere when he becomes a free agent.

Because it would be completely devoid of any logic to start Orton. It's either Tebow or a new first round QB next year. The writing is on the wall.

errand
07-30-2011, 11:59 AM
The NFL is a QB starved league, if any of the other 31 teams thought Kyle Orton was anything special, they would have tried trading for him.

They watch the tape, they see his ceiling and limitations.



Ok...so then why hasn't anyone asked us about acquiring Tebow?

Broncos4tw
07-30-2011, 12:02 PM
Mike Klis seems to think there is a 70% chance it will go up to the first preseason game, and then we trade Orton to Miami.

Guess we'll have to wait and see.

Finger Roll
07-30-2011, 12:20 PM
Ok...so then why hasn't anyone asked us about acquiring Tebow?

this is dumb. Probably because they know we won't trade him.

TheReverend
07-30-2011, 12:33 PM
Orton was on road, Tebow was at home...huge difference there alone. San diego generally beats the hell outta us in SD, and we generally win in Denver....who the QB is rarely mattered

2009- SD 32 @ DEN 3
2008- SD 38 @ DEN 39
2007- SD 41 @ DEN 3
2006- SD 35 @ DEN 27

:wave:

Cito Pelon
07-30-2011, 12:59 PM
Mike Klis seems to think there is a 70% chance it will go up to the first preseason game, and then we trade Orton to Miami.

Guess we'll have to wait and see.

Nothing against you, but Klis doesn't know jackcrap. So yeah, we'll have to wait and see.

MacGruder
07-30-2011, 08:56 PM
Dude you are becoming the new jhns only you are on Timmy's nut sack while jhns prefers the more salty Cutler nut sack.

That was what they said about me last training champ.. then Orton was complete garbage all season and Tebow came in and outperformed him.. Tebow even outperformed my expectations of him under the circumstances.

I just call them like I see them.

Orton has seemingly done nothing to improve his play either.

MacGruder
07-30-2011, 08:58 PM
Well, yeah....Bronco fans do that.

Aggie & MacGuanoNonBronco are just here for the Teebz.

What other good reason is there to be here?

Hilarious!

baja
07-30-2011, 08:59 PM
That was what they said about me last training champ.. then Orton was complete garbage all season and Tebow came in and outperformed him.. Tebow even outperformed my expectations of him under the circumstances.

I just call them like I see them.

<b>Orton has seemingly done nothing to improve his play either.


Oh I didn't know you were at training camp. Do you have a good seat?

MacGruder
07-30-2011, 09:04 PM
Oh I didn't know you were at training camp. Do you have a good seat?

I saw his physique. He has not talked about any improvements he has made or any other work he has done.. in fact NO ONE has even commented on what he needs to improve on including the media, fans and himself.

This is why I say people have been snow-jobbed. Orton's cockiness and prima donna act has somehow made people buy into it.. it's incredible really.

This is WHY I say watch last season and then come back and tell me how great Orton looks in training camp.

And Bjaja.. don't kill the messenger.. :sunshine: I just call em like I see em.

bowtown
07-30-2011, 09:10 PM
Oh I didn't know you were at training camp. Do you have a good seat?

He was hovering.

MacGruder
07-30-2011, 09:13 PM
He was hovering.

Too bad Orton can't hover in the fetal position.. he might be able to get a pass off in an actual game..

Hilarious!

bowtown
07-30-2011, 09:25 PM
Too bad Orton can't hover in the fetal position.. he might be able to get a pass off in an actual game..

Hilarious!

<a href="http://media.photobucket.com/image/annoyed gifs/nlduffy/GIFS/four.gif?o=20" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v169/nlduffy/GIFS/four.gif" border="0"></a>

MacGruder
07-30-2011, 09:30 PM
You liked that one.. admit it..

TailgateNut
07-30-2011, 09:34 PM
I saw his physique. He has not talked about any improvements he has made or any other work he has done.. in fact NO ONE has even commented on what he needs to improve on including the media, fans and himself.

This is why I say people have been snow-jobbed. Orton's cockiness and prima donna act has somehow made people buy into it.. it's incredible really.

This is WHY I say watch last season and then come back and tell me how great Orton looks in training camp.

And Bjaja.. don't kill the messenger.. :sunshine: I just call em like I see em.


Hilarious!

baja
07-30-2011, 09:37 PM
I saw his physique. He has not talked about any improvements he has made or any other work he has done.. in fact NO ONE has even commented on what he needs to improve on including the media, fans and himself.

This is why I say people have been snow-jobbed. Orton's cockiness and prima donna act has somehow made people buy into it.. it's incredible really.

This is WHY I say watch last season and then come back and tell me how great Orton looks in training camp.

And Bjaja.. don't kill the messenger.. :sunshine: I just call em like I see em.

Dude we had fun getting the Tasmanian devil (the rev.) to twirl, twirl, twirl & spittle spittle, spittle but you adoration for Tebow has translated into hate for his competition . Orton and a good QB that will help the right team win a lot of games he is just not a QB that can put a team on his back and win some extra games. In short he will win with a good team and look great doing it but he does not have very much "it" while Tebow is dripping in "It" but has a lot to learn.

You are trying to live vicariously through Tebow, I think it is called hero identification. It's also called giving your power & identify away...


BTW I'm not killing the messenger here I'm questioning your opinion. I think it is bazzaro.

Broncobiv
07-30-2011, 09:46 PM
Dude we had fun getting the Tasmanian devil (the rev.) to twirl, twirl, twirl & spittle spittle, spittle but you adoration for Tebow has translated into hate for his competition . Orton and a good QB that will help the right team win a lot of games he is just not a QB that can put a team on his back and win some extra games. In short he will win with a good team and look great doing it but he does not have very much "it" while Tebow is dripping in "It" but has a lot to learn.

You are trying to live vicariously through Tebow, I think it is called hero identification. It's also called giving your power & identify away...


BTW I'm not killing the messenger here I'm questioning your opinion. I think it is bazzaro.

Stop talking to yourself, baja.

baja
07-30-2011, 09:48 PM
Stop talking to yourself, baja.


I hate it when I do that.

MacGruder
07-30-2011, 09:50 PM
Dude we had fun getting the Tasmanian devil (the rev.) to twirl, twirl, twirl & spittle spittle, spittle but you adoration for Tebow has translated into hate for his competition

I think you have this backwards Baja... it;s Broncos homers that have somehow painted Orton as somekind of Elway. They have projected their apologist ways from Elway to Orton. They seem to let Orton get away with any behavior simply because they are being good fans.

Orton is a HORRIBLE person and QB. The is truly a rotten person. He hung McD out to dry last season simply to ensure he kept his starter job. He is a HORRIBLE leader to his team.. he is acting liek Brett Favre with his attitude toward Tebow and he hasn't done jack in his career to justify that.

And then I am the bad one for pointing it out?

. Orton and a good QB that will help the right win a lot of games he is just not a QB that can put a team on his back and win some extra games. In short he will win with a good team and look great doing it but he does not have very much "it" while Tebow is dripping in "It" but has a lot to learn.

This is your zealotry showing through Baja.. Orton;s play will NEVER win.. no matter how good his team is. Mcd is an offensive genius... and he still couldn't win with him. It doesn't matter how great your team is.. you still have to perform in key situations and stay healthy.. Orton cannot do these thing sin the NFL. Trent Dilfer is Iron Man compared to Orton.

You are trying to live vicariously through Tebow, I think it is called hero identification. It's also called giving your power & identify away...

You are misidentifying things Baja... I am an extremist.. when I do something I go all out.. It's just how I roll.. people often mistake this for other things.

Plus I am not a follower. So I see things the group doesn't normally see.. which is why I recognized how great Tebow was before others who just parrot what they are told.

For this same reason I see what a complete loser Orton is even though the numbers McD's offense generated hide that. Orton's cocky attitude just helps complete the illusion and fool people that aren't able to see through it.

baja
07-30-2011, 09:53 PM
I think you have this backwards Baja... it;s Broncos homers that have somehow painted Orton as somekind of Elway. They have projected their apologist ways from Elway to Orton. They seem to let Orton get away with any behavior simply because they are being good fans.

Orton is a HORRIBLE person and QB. The is truly a rotten person. He hung McD out to dry last season simply to ensure he kept his starter job. He is a HORRIBLE leader to his team.. he is acting liek Brett Favre with his attitude toward Tebow and he hasn't done jack in his career to justify that.

And then I am the bad one for pointing it out?



This is your zealotry showing through Baja.. Orton;s play will NEVER win.. no matter how good his team is. Mcd is an offensive genius... and he still couldn't win with him. It doesn't matter how great your team is.. you still have to perform in key situations and stay healthy.. Orton cannot do these thing sin the NFL. Trent Dilfer is Iron Man compared to Orton.



You are misidentifying things Baja... I am an extremist.. when I do something I go all out.. It's just how I roll.. people often mistake this for other things.

Plus I am not a follower. So I see things the group doesn't normally see.. which is why I recognized how great Tebow was before others who just parrot what they are told.

For this same reason I see what a complete loser Orton is even though the numbers McD's offense generated hide that. Orton's cocky attitude just helps complete the illusion and fool people that aren't able to see through it.

I think you are right about Tebow and wrong about Orton and there is really not much more to say about it.

MacGruder
07-30-2011, 10:07 PM
I think you are right about Tebow and wrong about Orton and there is really not much more to say about it.

That's why I said I just call em like I see em. I hope you do the same..

I don't hold anything against anyone for their opinion. But I will argue vehemently.. just not personally! :)

HAT
07-30-2011, 10:13 PM
You are misidentifying things Baja... I am an extremist.. when I do something I go all out.. It's just how I troll.

FYP

MacGruder
07-30-2011, 10:18 PM
FYP

Trolling for the win?

Desperate times call for desperate measures..

There wouldn't need to be martyrs if there weren't mindless mobs..

HAT
07-30-2011, 10:19 PM
http://cdn.buzznet.com/assets/users9/boink/default/kyle-orton--large-msg-113891258258-2.jpg

HAT
07-30-2011, 10:22 PM
You are trying to live vicariously through Tebow, I think it is called hero identification. It's also called giving your power & identify away...



MacGuanoNonBronco makes Cutlerfan look like a casual fan. Remember how gay for Jay that dude was? It was nothing in hindsight.

baja
07-30-2011, 10:27 PM
That's why I said I just call em like I see em. I hope you do the same..

I don't hold anything against anyone for their opinion. But I will argue vehemently.. just not personally! :)

Now if I were the rev I would answer this and every subsequent post and we'd be off to another 100 page thread study in separate reality for separate people.

MacGruder
07-30-2011, 10:30 PM
Now if I were the rev I would answer this and every subsequent post and we'd be off to another 100 page thread study in separate reality for separate people.

If you were theRev you would post some stupid picture like that jackasss above.

Or make some vague snide comment that really explained nothing and act like you were some superior genius.

MacGruder
07-30-2011, 10:33 PM
MacGuanoNonBronco makes Cutlerfan look like a casual fan. Remember how gay for Jay that dude was? It was nothing in hindsight.

It sucks when people act different than everyone else doesn't it?

Juts remember.. if people actualyl KNEw what they were talking about with football and especially Tebow then I wouldn't need to be posting the things I do.

People are trying to compare Tebow to other QBs when there has never been any player like him.

This is why fans and even professionals fail so hard with Tebow.

With Tebow what you think you know hurts you even more. It's the case of knowing a little info being dangerous.

baja
07-30-2011, 10:36 PM
If you were theRev you would post some stupid picture like that jackasss above.

Or make some vague snide comment that really explained nothing and act like you were some superior genius.

You have to get the last word don't you. ;D

HAT
07-30-2011, 10:40 PM
It sucks when people act different than everyone else doesn't it?



Not at all. Different is cool. Bat **** crazy is, well, bat **** crazy.

I'm looking forward to the day you get arrested for stalking Tebow.....Maybe it will keep you off line for awhile.

Later.

MacGruder
07-30-2011, 10:40 PM
You have to get the last word don't you. ;D

It wasn't the last word. I was agreeing with you. :D

But in an argument I do have to get the last word when I am being insulted or mocked. Gotta stand up for yourself.

baja
07-30-2011, 10:43 PM
It wasn't the last word. I was agreeing with you. :D

But in an argument I do have to get the last word when I am being insulted or mocked. Gotta stand up for yourself.

I see.

MacGruder
07-30-2011, 10:43 PM
Not at all. Different is cool. Bat **** crazy is, well, bat **** crazy.

I'm looking forward to the day you get arrested for stalking Tebow.....Maybe it will keep you off line for awhile.

Later.

I'm not that kind of fan. I am not that huge of a fan of Tebow the person.. not that he's a bad guy. I just see him as a normal guy.

He just happens to be great at what he does. I am just enjoying watching a once in a lifetime talent. I wish others could appreciate it in the moment.

TheDave
07-30-2011, 11:38 PM
FWIW...

So, I was at camp today... First and foremost it looked just like you would expect day 3 of camp after a long layoff would look. Things were pretty disjointed.

As for Tebow v. Orton. (God this hurts to even say) Orton is light years ahead of him. To be honest Tebow was easily the least accurate QB at camp today (and that includes one of the coaches who were helping out as an extra arm) Hell, Tebow made Orton look like Tom Brady (Sorry couldn't resist ;D)

Practically everything he threw recievers had to adjust too. Now, I know 7 on 7 and passing drills are his weakness while theses are strengths of Ortons, but he looked really bad out there today. Foot work was a mess, timming was off... Bleh

The sad thing is, I really want this kid to succeed... but if you can't hit a TE in the flat on a 3 step drop with no pressure, well that's just not going to cut it come sunday.

Hopefully this was just a bad day, and things get better when the lights are on, but as of right now... I'm happy that Orton was not traded.

Blueflame
07-30-2011, 11:44 PM
Preseason is much different. The other team is giving it 100%

Of course preseason is much different than a full-contact meaningful game. And postseason (win-or-go-home) games are different yet. Nonetheless, training camp battles (starting positions) are generally not won/earned by athletes who are routinely outperformed by other players at their position in training camp and/or preseason games.

It's not about effort.. it's about coaches inability to understand what works on the training field in different scenarios than actual games.

If the training camp is played like an actual game then it will translate.. and then there is no "judgment call" really made. But that isn't how it is done.

Like I said.. coaches can't even determine who can really play based on 4 year careers in college. How is a non contact scrimmage going to really tell them any more?

As I have said before.. Orton and Quinn appeared to outplay Tebow in training camp last season and he outplayed them in real games with less experience and in a terrible situation. Nothing really illustrates i better.

To use another NBA analogy.. Charles Barkley always says there are tons of guys who are great shooters in practice.. but when they get in real games it completely disappears. Nothing illustrates that better than Orton versus Tebow...

Coaches at the professional (NFL) level are presumed to be capable of assessing which player at each position gives the team the best chance of winning football games. While a player "could" possibly be given the starting nod despite being outplayed throughout the preseason, that isn't usually the case. It's what preseason/training camp are for... assessing player skill levels and establishing the depth chart.

Preseason performance does matter. But it's still early in the preseason and Tebow has time (the entire month of August) to improve and show the coaches why he deserves the starting job. The same statement is equally accurate if one substitutes "Orton" or even "Quinn" for "Tebow" however.

MacGruder
07-30-2011, 11:48 PM
FWIW...

So, I was at camp today... First and foremost it looked just like you would expect day 3 of camp after a long layoff would look. Things were pretty disjointed.

As for Tebow v. Orton. (God this hurts to even say) Orton is light years ahead of him. To be honest Tebow was easily the least accurate QB at camp today (and that includes one of the coaches who were helping out as an extra arm) Hell, Tebow made Orton look like Tom Brady (Sorry couldn't resist ;D)

Practically everything he threw recievers had to adjust too. Now, I know 7 on 7 and passing drills are his weakness while theses are strengths of Ortons, but he looked really bad out there today. Foot work was a mess, timming was off... Bleh


What you are missing though.. is that while Orton can hit all those throws in practice.. what is he going to look like in actual games after he is hit a coupel times? Especially after several games of that?

Tebow is going to look the same.. and is much more likely to convert in tough situations..

While Orton will likely look even worse than Tebow in these practices where you think Tebow looks terrible.

Plus.. let's not forget.. in practice they often work on areas that are a players weakness. In games it's the complete opposite. The gameplan is designed to suit a players strengths.

MacGruder
07-30-2011, 11:54 PM
Coaches at the professional (NFL) level are presumed to be capable of assessing which player at each position gives the team the best chance of winning football games. While a player "could" possibly be given the starting nod despite being outplayed throughout the preseason, that isn't usually the case. It's what preseason/training camp are for... assessing player skill levels and establishing the depth chart.

It didn't work last season.. so why make the same mistake again?

Preseason performance does matter. But it's still early in the preseason and Tebow has time (the entire month of August) to improve and show the coaches why he deserves the starting job. The same statement is equally accurate if one substitutes "Orton" or even "Quinn" for "Tebow" however.

Preseason matters.. but it is much more difficult to assess than the surface results show. Preseason is a game of horse... the real season is a game of horse while someone is punching you in the face as hard as they can before every shot and then punching you again if you miss.

The regular season separates the men from the boys. The athletes form the show ponies.

TheDave
07-30-2011, 11:57 PM
What you are missing though.. is that while Orton can hit all those throws in practice.. what is he going to look like in actual games after he is hit a coupel times? Especially after several games of that?

Tebow is going to look the same.. and is much more likely to convert in tough situations..

While Orton will likely look even worse than Tebow in these practices where you think Tebow looks terrible.

Plus.. let's not forget.. in practice they often work on areas that are a players weakness. In games it's the complete opposite. The gameplan is designed to suit a players strengths.

Trust me I'm not missing any of that...

The problem is, at this level if you can not consistantly take your drop, make your reads, and deliver a strike to an 18inch window all in about 2 seconds, you're not going to last. Today he rarely did any of that let alone all of it.

This isn't Florida, and our offense doesn't resemble the spread option he has always excelled in. Today (and I realize this is only one practice) he didn't look anything like a pro QB.

To be honest it was sad to watch... I guess I expected all his ofseason work to show up and I saw little if any of it.

TDmvp
07-31-2011, 12:04 AM
Preface this with I like Kyle the guy and he's a average to slightly above average passer but he just doesn't have "IT" or do the little things in clutch moments.

But I can't even read anymore of this because after watching Kyle for two years I just haven't been impressed but like 5/10 times maybe total ... Like 5 friggen times I went OOoooo that was a insane throw by Kyle or WOW that was KILLER how he floated around in the pocket and bought himself a extra 2 secs. 5 friggen times... maybe 10 tops.

Hell sometimes Elway , Plummer , and even the devil himself Jay would have 5 of those a game.


So Pls god let us trade the illegitimate son of Happy Gilmore and Dave Grohl to anyone for anything.

http://a323.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_fantasy_experts__13/ept_sports_fantasy_experts-309167018-1244063461.jpg?ymlrHXBDg94Gs_7r

MacGruder
07-31-2011, 12:04 AM
Trust me I'm not missing any of that...

The problem is, at this level if you can not consistantly take your drop, make your reads, and deliver a strike to an 18inch window all in about 2 seconds, you're not going to last. Today he rarely did any of that let alone all of it.

This isn't Florida, and our offense doesn't resemble the spread option he has always excelled in. Today (and I realize this is only one practice) he didn't look anything like a pro QB.

To be honest it was sad to watch... I guess I expected all his ofseason work to show up and I saw little if any of it.

I explained this in another thread though.. Tebow does things his own way. What works in practice doesn't necessarily work in games.

Tebow has always looked unorthodox and his game looks ugly. But this is because he can get away with things other QBs cannot. He has so much ability things he does don't look like normal QB plays. He doesn't have to take the risks other QBs do. Like you said.. he doesn't look like an NFL QB. But what you miss is that the stuff Orton does in practice will not translate.

Why do you think he looks unstoppable in practice and then falls apart in games when it really matters?

Blueflame
07-31-2011, 12:08 AM
It didn't work last season.. so why make the same mistake again?



Preseason matters.. but it is much more difficult to assess than the surface results show. Preseason is a game of horse... the real season is a game of horse while someone is punching you in the face as hard as they can before every shot and then punching you again if you miss.

The regular season separates the men from the boys. The athletes form the show ponies.

This isn't last season. We have a new HC and new offensive and defensive schemes for each player to learn. If Tebow cannot clearly outperform the likes of a middle-of-the-pack quality QB like Orton then perhaps he isn't ready to be a starter yet. But more is expected from a player going into his second season than is expected from a rookie and all reports (so far... but again, it's early and things may change) I've read state that Tebow does not look good enough to start. He's going to have to do better or he won't get the nod from Fox and that's a fact.

TheDave
07-31-2011, 12:12 AM
I explained this in another thread though.. Tebow does things his own way. What works in practice doesn't necessarily work in games.

Tebow has always looked unorthodox and his game looks ugly. But this is because he can get away with things other QBs cannot. He has so much ability things he does don't look like normal QB plays. He doesn't have to take the risks other QBs do. Like you said.. he doesn't look like an NFL QB. But what you miss is that the stuff Orton does in practice will not translate.

Why do you think he looks unstoppable in practice and then falls apart in games when it really matters?

I hate to break this to you, but Tebows accuracy isn't very good in games either. I know it's fun to pretend that superman does it all right when it's game time. But like it or not you won't last as a QB in the NFL completing only 50% of your passes.

and none of this is a defense of Orton... trading Cutler for Orton was one of my worst days as a Bronco fan. (Something McD was able to top several times in the next 2 years)

IMO, go ahead an ship Orton out of town Yesterday and see what the kid has. If he brings it then everyone is happy, if he sucks we are that much closer to Andrew Luck. Win/Win

MacGruder
07-31-2011, 12:25 AM
This isn't last season. We have a new HC and new offensive and defensive schemes for each player to learn. If Tebow cannot clearly outperform the likes of a middle-of-the-pack quality QB like Orton then perhaps he isn't ready to be a starter yet. But more is expected from a player going into his second season than is expected from a rookie and all reports (so far... but again, it's early and things may change) I've read state that Tebow does not look good enough to start. He's going to have to do better or he won't get the nod from Fox and that's a fact.

How can Orton win the starting QB job when he couldn't out perform a rookie QB with no prep time last season in Tebow?

And again.. your definition of "clearly outperforming:" is flawed.. because the performance necessary in actual games can't be demonstrated in practices.

MacGruder
07-31-2011, 12:32 AM
I hate to break this to you, but Tebows accuracy isn't very good in games either. I know it's fun to pretend that superman does it all right when it's game time. But like it or not you won't last as a QB in the NFL completing only 50% of your passes.


Well.. I don't understand this "see what he has" stance. Everyone should already know.. since everyone claims to be QB experts. The fact people don't know yet should tell you that the things people judge QBs by don't work.

If Tebow's accuracy isn't good in games then why did he have a better YPA than Orton who is supposedly accurate?

Doesn't add up.

Tebow looking to be aggressive also slows his progressions and makes hi less accurate when he does decide to throw the ball.

Again.. these are things that are' easily quantified in games.

Tebow's more aggressive passing style is likely more difficult to adapt as well. Lo how Peyton Manning had so many interceptions his rookie year. Manning doesn't dink the way guys like Orton and Quinn do. This is why they can look worse at times but their team is more successful. I used the example of Favre alst year. Favre played to win.. Orton played to protect his starter job.. they both had bad seasons but Favre looked much worse simply because he had more interceptions.. but he TRIED to win.. not just settle for losing to look good.

Bottom line is that you have to be very careful judging these guys.. looks can be INCREDIBLY deceiving.

This is why Tebow was so undervalued coming out of college.

TheDave
07-31-2011, 12:35 AM
Well.. I don't understand this "see what he has" stance. Everyone should already know.. since everyone claims to be QB experts. The fact people don't know yet should tell you that the things people judge QBs by don't work.

If Tebow's accuracy isn't good in games then why did he have a better YPA than Orton who is supposedly accurate?

Doesn't add up.

Tebow looking to be aggressive also slows his progressions and makes hi less accurate when he does decide to throw the ball.

Again.. these are things that are' easily quantified in games.

Tebow's more aggressive passing style is likely more difficult to adapt as well. Lo how Peyton Manning had so many interceptions his rookie year. Manning doesn't dink the way guys like Orton and Quinn do. This is why they can look worse at times but their team is more successful. I used the example of Favre alst year. Favre played to win.. Orton played to protect his starter job.. they both had bad seasons but Favre looked much worse simply because he had more interceptions.. but he TRIED to win.. not just settle for losing to look good.

Bottom line is that you have to be very careful judging these guys.. looks can be INCREDIBLY deceiving.

This is why Tebow was so undervalued coming out of college.

Tell the truth... you're wearing a #15 gators jersey right now.

Lev Vyvanse
07-31-2011, 12:40 AM
Tell the truth... you're wearing a #15 gators jersey right now.

Welcome back!!

MacGruder
07-31-2011, 12:40 AM
Tell the truth... you're wearing a #15 gators jersey right now.

Not at all.. I am just trying to avert another disaster... people are so freakin reactionary.

How people can forget last season and repeat the same exact thing is unbelievable to me.. but it's happening.

I actually HOPE Orton starts this year.. because I think he will tank fast.. but now I am worried Tebow won't even have a chance to start this season. Fox and Elway are probably so daft they will play three QBs this season before Tebow.

Blueflame
07-31-2011, 01:10 AM
How can Orton win the starting QB job when he couldn't out perform a rookie QB with no prep time last season in Tebow?

And again.. your definition of "clearly outperforming:" is flawed.. because the performance necessary in actual games can't be demonstrated in practices.

Again... this is a new year with a new HC and new coaching staff. Decisions made by last year's coaching staff won't be as important as performance now. How any player wins a starting position is by impressing his coaches and assistants with solid play in practice and in preseason games. Ultimately the coaches' jobs depend on winning games so they're going to put the players they believe will give the team the best chance of winning games at the top of the depth charts.

It's actually your argument (that starting roles should be determined based on game play) that's flawed. All NFL head coaches base their depth chart decisions on practice and preseason games (not on actual games) because depth charts/player rankings are typically established well before opening day as those rankings determine which players are retained on the 53-man roster and which ones are released (don't make the cut). The mere idea of waiting until after the first game has been played to name the team's starters... is laughably ludicrous.

MacGruder
07-31-2011, 01:19 AM
Again... this is a new year with a new HC and new coaching staff. Decisions made by last year's coaching staff won't be as important as performance now. How any player wins a starting position is by impressing his coaches and assistants with solid play in practice and in preseason games. Ultimately the coaches' jobs depend on winning games so they're going to put the players they believe will give the team the best chance of winning games at the top of the depth charts. [/quot]

Orton can't stay healthy even taking the slightest contact. He was protected well last season. He just isn't an NFL QB. His accuracy and timing in non contact scrimmages is't going to change that. If Fox and company think they can hide this or get around it they are deluding themselves and will waste another seaosn like McD last year. Orton's lack of aggression demoralizes his whole team and emboldens the competition too.

[quote[It's actually your argument (that starting roles should be determined based on game play) that's flawed. All NFL head coaches base their depth chart decisions on practice and preseason games (not on actual games) because depth charts/player rankings are typically established well before opening day as those rankings determine which players are retained on the 53-man roster and which ones are released (don't make the cut). The mere idea of waiting until after the first game has been played to name the team's starters... is laughably ludicrous.

No.. that's not what I am saying.. I am saying that Orotn's accuracy and skills mean nothing if he isn't capable of doing the same thing in games. He has ALREADY shown that is the case.. training camp can never change that. It's less about what Tebow can or can't do and completely about what Orton has already proven he can't do.

McDaniels was an incredibly talented offensive coach and still couldn't make Orton an even decent QB nor could he keep him healthy. Fox is not the offensive coach McD was and cannot possibly raise Orton's level of play.. in fact it will likely be worse.

Tebow also shows his play made the run game and defense raise their level of play.

Tebow outscored Orton with no preparation and no experience.

If Orton can't prove he has improved in those areas in camp he can't possibly win the starting job in camp drills over what Tebow proved in actual games.

Blueflame
07-31-2011, 01:46 AM
No.. that;s not what I am saying.. I am saying that Orotn;s accuracy and skills mena nothing if he isn't capable of doing the same thing in games. He has ALREADY shown that is the case.. training ccamp can never change that. It's less aboiut what Tebow can or can't do and completely about what Orton has already proven he can't do.

McDaniels was an incredibly talented offensive coach and still couldn't make Orton and even decent QB nor could he keep him healthy. Fox is not the offensive coach McD was and cannot possibly raise Orton's level of play.. in fact it will liekly be worse.

Tebow also show his play made the run game and defense realize their level of play.

Tebow outscored Orton with no preparation.

If Orton can't prove he has improved in those areas in camp he can't possibly win the starting job in camp drills.

You can definitively state that in your opinion Orton shouldn't have any chance of winning the starting job because of the athletic limitations you perceive him having.

However... Fox and his coaching staff are going to come in and evaluate every player on their roster, including Orton (unless a trade agreement can be reached after all) Tebow and Quinn. And that's as it should be; regardless of what they've done in some other coach's system and in completely different circumstances, the current HC has to decide if he thinks any and all players can succeed in his system and with the teammates who will be on the field now.

I'm not disagreeing that Orton's limited. He is what he is and it should not be so difficult for Tebow to outperform him. What I'm saying to you is that if Tebow is going to seriously contend for the starting job, he has to step it up and the sooner the better because each day that the Post has an article saying "Orton played so much better than Tebow in training camp today" is detrimental as it makes the reader question whether Tebow truly is ready to start yet or needs more time to develop.

MacGruder
07-31-2011, 01:59 AM
You can definitively state that in your opinion Orton shouldn't have any chance of winning the starting job because of the athletic limitations you perceive him having.

It's all opinion. But there is overwhelming information to support that opinion.


I'm not disagreeing that Orton's limited. He is what he is and it should not be so difficult for Tebow to outperform him. What I'm saying to you is that if Tebow is going to seriously contend for the starting job, he has to step it up and the sooner the better because each day that the Post has an article saying "Orton played so much better than Tebow in training camp today" is detrimental as it makes the reader question whether Tebow truly is ready to start yet or needs more time to develop.

Well what I am saying is don't buy what the journalist is saying. They likely aren't capable of determining that. We as fans need to educate all the people we come in contact with or misconceptions will continue to spread.. we can prevent it if we show people what is really going on. We saw all this happen last season.. there is NO excuse for letting history repeat itself.

Tebow needs reps.. imagine what he could have done last season if he had had all the prep Orton had? All the experience. people are so terrified of Tebow taking some lumps.. he will be better for it. It's just so incredibly sad and stupid he has such a huge magnifying glass on him and can't make mistakes everyone else makes. The people in the Broncos organization should be preparing fans and Tebow for this.. not compounding things.. In reality it's not a case of IF Tebow will be great.. it's a matter of WHEN Tebow will be great as I see it.

Could you imagine if the Broncos had a backup QB who was experienced and was actually helping Tebow rather than likely hindering him and taking reps from him? Imagine how good Tebow could be by now.

Tebow can improve.. he needs to learnign the subtleties of the NFL passing game.. Orton will liekly NEVER be able to raise the areas of his game that are his weaknesses. People need to realzie Orton is fool's gold.. and juts looks like and does a NFL QB impersonation.

Another issue is Tebow needs QBs that can build a system, around him.. this is the real big issue.. Tebow's coaches should be under just as big a magnifying glass if not bigger than Tebow..

Blueflame
07-31-2011, 02:35 AM
It's all opinion. But there is overwhelming information to support that opinion.



Well what I am saying is don't buy what the journalist is saying. They likely aren't capable of determining that. We as fans need to educate all the people we come in contact with or misconceptions will continue to spread.. we can prevent it if we show people what is really going on. We saw all this happen last season.. there is NO excuse for letting history repeat itself.

Tebow needs reps.. imagine what he could have done last season if he had had all the prep Orton had? All the experience. people are so terrified of Tebow taking some lumps.. he will be better for it. It's just so incredibly sad and stupid he has such a huge magnifying glass on him and can't make mistakes everyone else makes. The people in the Broncos organization should be preparing fans and Tebow for this.. not compounding things.. In reality it's not a case of IF Tebow will be great.. it's a matter of WHEN Tebow will be great as I see it.

Could you imagine if the Broncos had a backup QB who was experienced and was actually helping Tebow rather than likely hindering him and taking reps from him? Imagine how good Tebow could be by now.

Tebow can improve.. he needs to learnign the subtleties of the NFL passing game.. Orton will liekly NEVER be able to raise the areas of his game that are his weaknesses. People need to realzie Orton is fool's gold.. and juts looks like and does a NFL QB impersonation.

Another issue is Tebow needs QBs that can build a system, around him.. this is the real big issue.. Tebow's coaches should be under just as big a magnifying glass if not bigger than Tebow..

The coaches may make decisions that run contrary to some fans' opinions. It happens.

While one can consider a possible bias and/or agenda in the reports of professional media... it tends to support those reports when several independent witnesses (members of the OM community who are fortunate enough to be able to attend training camp and kind enough to share their observations) say the exact same thing the media's saying (that both Quinn and Orton have looked better than Tebow in the early days of training camp). In fact, a better question (to my mind anyway) is "how are these reports not worrisome for any and every fan who wants Tebow to be named the starter... how can Tebow fans dismiss this like it's unimportant?"

If Tebow needs the reps with the first team, then he needs to impress the coaches and make himself the clear favorite to win the job. Orton isn't taking reps from Tebow; Tebow's allowing it to happen by allowing himself to be outperformed and upstaged. If he's capable of playing better... and deserves to be named the starter... then is he just dogging it or not taking the competition seriously or what? Or (IMHO the most likely explanation) is he perhaps just not quite ready yet? I dunno. Guess we'll just have to watch it all play out.

TailgateNut
07-31-2011, 02:44 AM
I think you are right about Tebow and wrong about Orton and there is really not much more to say about it.;)^5

TailgateNut
07-31-2011, 02:55 AM
All I hear when I listen to MacTebow is "mom, mommy, mom, mom, mommy, mom, mommy........

MacGruder
07-31-2011, 03:00 AM
The coaches may make decisions that run contrary to some fans' opinions. It happens.

While one can consider a possible bias and/or agenda in the reports of professional media... it tends to support those reports when several independent witnesses (members of the OM community who are fortunate enough to be able to attend training camp and kind enough to share their observations) say the exact same thing the media's saying (that both Quinn and Orton have looked better than Tebow in the early days of training camp). In fact, a better question (to my mind anyway) is "how are these reports not worrisome for any and every fan who wants Tebow to be named the starter... how can Tebow fans dismiss this like it's unimportant?"[./quote]

I completely disagree.. Comparing Tebow to QBs like Orton and Quinn based on training camp performance would be like comparing Reggie Miller to Shaq by having them them play a game of horse.

As I keep saying.. Orton and Quinn's lay in preseaosn did not translate last year. They both looked great yet could not perform in games. So to enhance their chances of starting they need to show things they didn't last season in training camp. I don't see how they can.

Tebow has an incredibly unique skillet.. he can do things differently than any other QB in the NFL right now. Tebow's style translated to the NFL regualr season spectacularly well. He dramatically outperformed the expectations of him especially under the circumstances.

Journalist and fans are relaly not qualified to evaluate Qbs.. they are wrong ALL the time especially when it comes to Qbs.

[quote]If Tebow needs the reps with the first team, then he needs to impress the coaches and make himself the clear favorite to win the job. Orton isn't taking reps from Tebow; Tebow's allowing it to happen by allowing himself to be outperformed and upstaged. If he's capable of playing better... and deserves to be named the starter... then is he just dogging it or not taking the competition seriously or what? Or (IMHO the most likely explanation) is he perhaps just not quite ready yet? I dunno. Guess we'll just have to watch it all play out.

It;s not the players who determine who gets starter reps.. it;s the coaches.. They failed last seaosn when they played Orton over Tebow and wasted an entire season of development time. They appear to be making the same mistake again.

Tebow outperformed every rookie last season in hsi first three starts.. and Kyle Orton.

This shows that the evaluation process of QBs is dramatically flawed.

The coaches need to be devising new training camp drills that more accurately predict game success... because what they are doing now is not working.

MacGruder
07-31-2011, 03:01 AM
All I hear when I listen to MacTebow is "mom, mommy, mom, mom, mommy, mom, mommy........

You're projecting again...

TailgateNut
07-31-2011, 03:13 AM
[QUOTE=Blueflame;3234854]The coaches may make decisions that run contrary to some fans' opinions. It happens.

While one can consider a possible bias and/or agenda in the reports of professional media... it tends to support those reports when several independent witnesses (members of the OM community who are fortunate enough to be able to attend training camp and kind enough to share their observations) say the exact same thing the media's saying (that both Quinn and Orton have looked better than Tebow in the early days of training camp). In fact, a better question (to my mind anyway) is "how are these reports not worrisome for any and every fan who wants Tebow to be named the starter... how can Tebow fans dismiss this like it's unimportant?"[./quote]

I completely disagree.. Comparing Tebow to QBs like Orton and Quinn based on training camp performance would be like comparing Reggie Miller to Shaq by having them them play a game of horse.

As I keep saying.. Orton and Quinn's lay in preseaosn did not translate last year. They both looked great yet could not perform in games. So to enhance their chances of starting they need to show things they didn't last season in training camp. I don't see how they can.

Tebow has an incredibly unique skillet.. he can do things differently than any other QB in the NFL right now. Tebow's style translated to the NFL regualr season spectacularly well. He dramatically outperformed the expectations of him especially under the circumstances.

Journalist and fans are relaly not qualified to evaluate Qbs.. they are wrong ALL the time especially when it comes to Qbs.

It;s not the players who determine who gets starter reps.. it;s the coaches.. They failed last seaosn when they played Orton over Tebow and wasted an entire season of development time. They appear to be making the same mistake again.

Tebow outperformed every rookie last season in hsi first three starts.. and Kyle Orton.

This shows that the evaluation process of QBs is dramatically flawed.

The coaches need to be devising new training camp drills that more accurately predict game success... because what they are doing now is not working.


Hilarious!

TailgateNut
07-31-2011, 03:13 AM
You're projecting again...


Obushma, is that you?

Blueflame
07-31-2011, 03:31 AM
I completely disagree.. Comparing Tebow to QBs like Orton and Quinn based on training camp performance would be like comparing Reggie Miller to Shaq by having them them play a game of horse.

As I keep saying.. Orton and Quinn's lay in preseaosn did not translate last year. They both looked great yet could not perform in games. So to enhance their chances of starting they need to show things they didn't last season in training camp. I don't see how they can.

Tebow has an incredibly unique skillet.. he can do things differently than any other QB in the NFL right now. Tebow's style translated to the NFL regualr season spectacularly well. He dramatically outperformed the expectations of him especially under the circumstances.

Journalist and fans are relaly not qualified to evaluate Qbs.. they are wrong ALL the time especially when it comes to Qbs.

Whether you agree with it or not, Fox and the Broncos coaching staff are going to rank their QBs based on training camp and preseason game performance.

It;s not the players who determine who gets starter reps.. it;s the coaches.. They failed last seaosn when they played Orton over Tebow and wasted an entire season of development time. They appear to be making the same mistake again.

Tebow outperformed every rookie last season in hsi first three starts.. and Kyle Orton.

This shows that the evaluation process of QBs is dramatically flawed.

The coaches need to be devising new training camp drills that more accurately predict game success... because what they are doing now is not working.

Yes it is the coaches who determine who gets the reps with the starters... based on training camp performance. So it follows that if we assume Tebow has the skill set, talent, and ability to take the starting job, then why is he getting outplayed and upstaged by less-talented QBs like Orton and Quinn (and the consensus of opinion from camp has been that they're both way ahead of Tebow)? I think it's a reach and way too simplistic to just say "well the coaches' evaluation process is faulty if they don't just anoint him the starter from Day One regardless of the fact that he's playing like a 3rd-stringer right now". No... the way it works is he has to play better before receiving the promotion.

MacGruder
07-31-2011, 03:40 AM
Yes it is the coaches who determine who gets the reps with the starters... based on training camp performance.

That is completely flawed though.. Orton always looks great in training camp and is horrible in actual games. So again.. we know this. There is no reason to continue to make the same mistakes over and over.

Repeating the same actions and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. That sums up NFL teams and fansbases..

So it follows that if we assume Tebow has the skill set, talent, and ability to take the starting job, then why is he getting outplayed and upstaged by less-talented QBs like Orton and Quinn (and the consensus of opinion from camp has been that they're both way ahead of Tebow)?

I have already told you.. the drills in practice are not representative of actual games. Apparently Orton and Quinn should be emulating Tebow in his drills not the other way around.

I think it's a reach and way too simplistic to just say "well the coaches' evaluation process is faulty if they don't just anoint him the starter from Day One regardless of the fact that he's playing like a 3rd-stringer right now". No... the way it works is he has to play better before receiving the promotion.

Football is a game of athleticism.. skill isn't the only factor.. in fact in today's NFL is appears to be far less important than athleticism.

There are many college QBs that are tremendously skilled but don't have the physical tools to compete in the NFL.. This is why Orton and Quinn should not be getting starter reps. They are not skilled enough to overcome their lack of intangibles and athleticism. It's that simple. Ignoring that is ignoring the reality of the situation.

Blueflame
07-31-2011, 03:55 AM
That is completely flawed though.. Orton always looks great in training camp and is horrible in actual games. So again.. we know this. There is no reason to continue to make the same mistakes over and over.

Repeating the same actions and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. That sums up NFL teams and fansbases..



I have already told you.. the drills in practice are not representative of actual games. Apparently Orton and Quinn should be emulating Tebow in his drills not the other way around.



Football is a game of athleticism.. skill isn't the only factor.. in fact in today's NFL is appears to be far less important than athleticism.

There are many college QBs that are tremendously skilled but don't have the physical tools to compete in the NFL.. This is why Orton and Quinn should not be getting starter reps. They are not skilled enough to overcome their lack of intangibles and athleticism. It's that simple. Ignoring that is ignoring the reality of the situation.

The method you advocate is not... nor has it ever been... the way things are done in the NFL. I 'get it" that you're already completely convinced Tebow is ready to be a starter. Unfortunately for him, it's his coaches and not you... who need to be convinced because they're the ones who will determine which slot on the depth chart is his.

Agamemnon
07-31-2011, 03:57 AM
It's simple really. Orton and Quinn, despite having a well established history of sucking in actual games, are playing better in practice and are therefore better QBs. Tebow, who pulled off one of the greatest comebacks in Broncos history and led the team to over 25 ppg in his only three starts, is clearly third on the depth chart because he's very raw. It all makes perfect sense.

We're so going to win the Training Camp Super Bowl this year!!! :yayaya:

MacGruder
07-31-2011, 04:02 AM
The method you advocate is not... nor has it ever been... the way things are done in the NFL.

I disagree.. guys are kept from playing all the time that don't have the physical tools.. even if they have the skills. The same thing happens in basketball constantly.

If guys didn't play because of their athletic edge Vince Young and Vick would have never gotten on the field. Vick didn't over Kolb last year.


I 'get it" that you're already completely convinced Tebow is ready to be a starter. Unfortunately for him, it's his coaches and not you... who need to be convinced because they're the ones who will determine which slot on the depth chart is his.

Like I said.. it's not so much that Tebow is ready.. it's that Orton and Quinn have showed in the past they can't compete even with their skill. They simply lack the intangibles necessary to compete in NFL games. Tebow has shown he can even without polished skills.

The coaches appear to be making a horrible mistake that will set the franchise back another year just as they did last season.

Agamemnon
07-31-2011, 04:16 AM
Mac, you're wasting your breath. It doesn't matter that we already know what these guys have to offer in actual games and through a full season: not much (there's an outside chance Quinn turns the corner, but Orton is what he is). They're playing well in practice and people have been conditioned to think that means something (despite the fact that every year we have tons of guys who play well throughout camp and then suck when it's for real).

Here's hoping that preseason (when Tebow will almost certainly look better than either) is enough to snap Fox out of his idiotic stupor. Then again if it's against the scrubs of other teams he may still get no credit.

Seriously have people forgotten the Houston game so soon? That alone should've been enough to win Tebow the starting job on a team struggling to find a competitive edge. Period. Instead we are left with this joke of a QB competition.

Blueflame
07-31-2011, 04:23 AM
I disagree.. guys are kept from playing all the time that don't have the physical tools.. even if they have the skills. The same thing happens in basketball constantly.

If guys didn't play because of their athletic edge Vince Young and Vick would have never gotten on the field. Vick didn't over Kolb last year.

Like I said.. it's not so much that Tebow is ready.. it's that Orton and Quinn have showed in the past they can't compete even with their skill. They simply lack the intangibles necessary to compete in NFL games. Tebow has shown he can even without polished skills.

The coaches appear to be making a horrible mistake that will set the franchise back another year just as they did last season.

If a guy can be "kept on the bench" by a mediocre veteran, then one has to question why. The answer is far deeper than "the evaluation process was flawed".

Vince Young will never live up to the hype he had coming out of college.

MacGruder
07-31-2011, 04:29 AM
I am not too worried about it because I think Orton will tank in the regular season. Quinn too even if he gets a chance over Tebow.

The only thing that bothers me is that Tebow is not getting starter reps in practice. And he is the guy who has not had a chance to get some good experience. The problem is they have too many good practice QBs in Orton and Quinn. And they are both fool's gold. And neither on of them wants to mentor Tebow.. it's the worst possible scenario for him.

If I was the coach I would find a way to even the playing field to enhance Tebow's chances because of his athletic edge.

MacGruder
07-31-2011, 04:33 AM
If a guy can be "kept on the bench" by a mediocre veteran, then one has to question why. The answer is far deeper than "the evaluation process was flawed".

Vince Young will never live up to the hype he had coming out of college.

Both Kyle and Quinn are very skilled, VERY EXPERIENCED well trained QBs who are not good on the field.. football is FILLED with guys like that. Guys like Tebow are rare.. which is the problem and why he is undervalued.

Vince Young is a winner... his problem is some aspects of his leadership.

Vince got his chance to start over a very skilled and polished backup in Collins too. Just as Tebow should. Tebow actually deserves it much more. Tebow is incredibly prepared and has all the tools VY does.

Blueflame
07-31-2011, 04:52 AM
I am not too worried about it because I think Orton will tank in the regular season. Quinn too even if he gets a chance over Tebow.

The only thing that bothers me is that Tebow is not getting starter reps in practice. And he is the guy who has not had a chance to get some good experience. The problem is they have too many good practice QBs in Orton and Quinn. And they are both fool's gold. And neither on of them wants to mentor Tebow.. it's the worst possible scenario for him.

If I was the coach I would find a way to even the playing field to enhance Tebow's chances because of his athletic edge.

From your own post: "Journalist and fans are relaly not qualified to evaluate Qbs.. they are wrong ALL the time especially when it comes to Qbs."

The bolded part includes you, btw. And I'll be very blunt here... I'm glad Fox...and not you... is the coach. I believe he's far more qualified.

Both Kyle and Quinn are very skilled well trained QBs who are not good on the field.. football is FILLED with guys like that. Guys like Tebow are rare.. which is the problem and why he is undervalued.

Vince Young is a winner... his problem is some aspects of his leadership.

Vince got his chance to start over a very skilled and polished backup in Collins too. Just as Tebow should. Tebow actually deserves it much more. Tebow is incredibly prepared and has all the tools VY does.

Psh... some fans thought Ryan Leaf was a winner too (he was picked at #2 overall; second only behind Peyton Manning)... and gee, his problems are in some aspects of his leadership too.

What exactly has Vince Young "won" in the NFL? (nothing except a ticket out of Tennessee).

MacGruder
07-31-2011, 05:13 AM
From your own post: "Journalist and fans are relaly not qualified to evaluate Qbs.. they are wrong ALL the time especially when it comes to Qbs."

The bolded part includes you, btw. And I'll be very blunt here... I'm glad Fox...and not you... is the coach. I believe he's far more qualified.

Again.. a little knowledge can be a bad thing.. a LOT of experience can be a bad thing too.

why do you think so many peope are wrong about Tebow? Like the fans they don't realize that Tebow doesn't o things unconventionally because he can't do them conventionally.. he does them that way because he is more successful doing it his way. He was arguably the most successful college QB EVER. Facing the toughest competition.


Psh... some fans thought Ryan Leaf was a winner too (he was picked at #2 overall; second only behind Peyton Manning)... and gee, his problems are in some aspects of his leadership too.

Ryan leaf was overrated for the same reason Luck is so overrated and the same reason Tebow is underrated.. because they played outside the SEC and Tebow didn't.

What exactly has Vince Young "won" in the NFL? (nothing except a ticket out of Tennessee).

He has a good winning record. And that is without Tebow's work ethic and toughness.

Again.. this is a carbon copy of Kolb versus Vick last year. Orton would have probably beat Vick in training camp drills too. But then done nowhere near what Vick did in games.. just like with Orton compared to Tebow.

TailgateNut
07-31-2011, 05:34 AM
It's simple really. Orton and Quinn, despite having a well established history of sucking in actual games, are playing better in practice and are therefore better QBs. Tebow, who pulled off one of the greatest comebacks in Broncos history and led the team to over 25 ppg in his only three starts, is clearly third on the depth chart because he's very raw. It all makes perfect sense.

We're so going to win the Training Camp Super Bowl this year!!! :yayaya:


How do you and MacTebow decide who's turn it is to suck on Tebows cork?

TailgateNut
07-31-2011, 05:38 AM
From your own post: "Journalist and fans are relaly not qualified to evaluate Qbs.. they are wrong ALL the time especially when it comes to Qbs."

The bolded part includes you, btw. And I'll be very blunt here... I'm glad Fox...and not you... is the coach. I believe he's far more qualified.

Psh... some fans thought Ryan Leaf was a winner too (he was picked at #2 overall; second only behind Peyton Manning)... and gee, his problems are in some aspects of his leadership too.

What exactly has Vince Young "won" in the NFL? (nothing except a ticket out of Tennessee).


^5

MacGruder
07-31-2011, 05:40 AM
Yes.. it's sucking up to actually recognize what a great player he is and try to show that to others. lol

Especailly after Tebow as overlooked and Orton wasted a season last year and the exact same thing is happening again.

And no one is even mentioning that the lockout caused him to lose even more opportunities for experience.. and instead of trying to make that up he is punished even more so some complete losers can hone abilities they will never really need for the rest of their lives... not to mention these same idiots also cause Tebow to lose the one coach who had an inkling of how good he was and no one else had a clue.. especially these same fans so excited for Kyle Ordinary.

Eldorado
07-31-2011, 05:56 AM
Yes.. it's sucking up to actually recognize what a great player he is and try to show that to others. lol

Especailly after Tebow as overlooked and Orton wasted a season last year and the exact same thing is happening again.

And no one is even mentioning that the lockout caused him to lose even more opportunities for experience.. and instead of trying to make that up he is punished even more so some complete losers can hone abilities they will never really need for the rest of their lives... not to mention these same idiots also cause Tebow to lose the one coach who had an inkling of how good he was and no one else had a clue.. especially these same fans so excited for Kyle Ordinary.

http://cdn.bleacherreport.com/images_root/image_pictures/0300/8584/dennis_green_feature.jpg

Agamemnon
07-31-2011, 06:10 AM
How do you and MacTebow decide who's turn it is to suck on Tebows cork?

Cork?

Anyway, the one thing that truly is easy to decide is who to put on ignore.

TailgateNut
07-31-2011, 07:01 AM
Cork?

Anyway, the one thing that truly is easy to decide is who to put on ignore.


Please do. I have already sent your twin (MacTebow) into my iggy bin. You haven't wasted quite as much bandwith as he, so you have been filed away with the rest of the losers. YET.

Dr. Broncenstein
07-31-2011, 07:08 AM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/attachment.php?attachmentid=28762&d=1309528414

MacGruder
07-31-2011, 07:12 AM
Is that Orton's dad celebrating the one big Orton play last season? lol

"That's my little "Neckbeard"! Dun me proud!"

Broncoman13
07-31-2011, 07:12 AM
Pretty funny how many people will listen to the journalists talk about how great Orton has done or how poor Tebow did.

I've sat back in the media gallery with those guys before. They'll go out, watch three or four plays, and then decide it's way too hot outside and go back inside. Or find a spot in the shade and every once in a while break away from their conversation to look up and see a play, write down a note and then write a story about it that many on here take as gospel.

I'll trust what guys from the OM say over a DP writer any time. I'll also listen to a guy like Cecil Lammey who appears to watch a lot more of practice. The Broncos Blog guy also watches a lot more and has better access. He gives a more positive perspective (Brandon Lloyd pulls down a beautiful 45 yard bomb from Orton, but you often don't know who got torched on the play), but it is based on actual events. The lazy folks from the DP will watch two or three plays and then write a story about it. It's frustrating how little they watch or how they look for certain things to fit into their stories.

A good example, Orton was their main story after the first day. That's all they wanted to write about, how much better Orton looked in the spin the ball contests. How many of them decided to write about yesterday's practice and Orton throwing more picks than Tebow and Quinn combined?

Agamemnon
07-31-2011, 07:19 AM
A good example, Orton was their main story after the first day. That's all they wanted to write about, how much better Orton looked in the spin the ball contests. How many of them decided to write about yesterday's practice and Orton throwing more picks than Tebow and Quinn combined?

This has been puzzling me honestly. There's all this talk of how much better Orton has looked, yet as far as I'm aware he's thrown the most interceptions of any of them so far. I really don't get it. Interceptions are kind of a big deal.

Cito Pelon
07-31-2011, 07:21 AM
FWIW...

So, I was at camp today... First and foremost it looked just like you would expect day 3 of camp after a long layoff would look. Things were pretty disjointed.

As for Tebow v. Orton. (God this hurts to even say) Orton is light years ahead of him. To be honest Tebow was easily the least accurate QB at camp today (and that includes one of the coaches who were helping out as an extra arm) Hell, Tebow made Orton look like Tom Brady (Sorry couldn't resist ;D)

Practically everything he threw recievers had to adjust too. Now, I know 7 on 7 and passing drills are his weakness while theses are strengths of Ortons, but he looked really bad out there today. Foot work was a mess, timming was off... Bleh

The sad thing is, I really want this kid to succeed... but if you can't hit a TE in the flat on a 3 step drop with no pressure, well that's just not going to cut it come sunday.

Hopefully this was just a bad day, and things get better when the lights are on, but as of right now... I'm happy that Orton was not traded.

Ouch. I hope Tebow can get his groove on.

baja
07-31-2011, 07:22 AM
Trust me I'm not missing any of that...

The problem is, at this level if you can not consistantly take your drop, make your reads, and deliver a strike to an 18inch window all in about 2 seconds, you're not going to last. Today he rarely did any of that let alone all of it.

This isn't Florida, and our offense doesn't resemble the spread option he has always excelled in. Today (and I realize this is only one practice) he didn't look anything like a pro QB.

To be honest it was sad to watch... I guess I expected all his ofseason work to show up and I saw little if any of it.

It's very good to see you posting again TheDave.

Cito Pelon
07-31-2011, 07:31 AM
Well.. I don't understand this "see what he has" stance. Everyone should already know.. since everyone claims to be QB experts. The fact people don't know yet should tell you that the things people judge QBs by don't work.

If Tebow's accuracy isn't good in games then why did he have a better YPA than Orton who is supposedly accurate?

Doesn't add up.

Tebow looking to be aggressive also slows his progressions and makes hi less accurate when he does decide to throw the ball.

Again.. these are things that are' easily quantified in games.

Tebow's more aggressive passing style is likely more difficult to adapt as well. Lo how Peyton Manning had so many interceptions his rookie year. Manning doesn't dink the way guys like Orton and Quinn do. This is why they can look worse at times but their team is more successful. I used the example of Favre alst year. Favre played to win.. Orton played to protect his starter job.. they both had bad seasons but Favre looked much worse simply because he had more interceptions.. but he TRIED to win.. not just settle for losing to look good.

Bottom line is that you have to be very careful judging these guys.. looks can be INCREDIBLY deceiving.

This is why Tebow was so undervalued coming out of college.

Welp, I hope TT gets a quarter in each PS game with the first team to show what you're talking about. And some snaps with the first team in practice to prepare him for working with the first teamers in a PS game.

Broncoman13
07-31-2011, 08:02 AM
Tebow's biggest issue is his instinct to run if his hot receiver is taken out of the play. Orton is way ahead of him in this regard and it is why Tebow looks poor in practice. Orton's progressions are a strength of his game. He is a savvy QB that understands the offense. He has developed this part of his game b/c it was the only way he could survive in college or the pro level.

I don't have the inside access, but I would bet that Tebow is being told during practices that he has to go through his progressions rather than take off and run. In fact, I would bet that the script includes his hot receiver being shut down thus forcing Tebow to look through his progressions. Smart coaching if this is the case but it's going to make Tebow look iffy and will definitely be a strength for Orton.

Last year I talked about Tebow's timing being off. Plays are designed for receivers to get 'open' at nearly the same time. That means the QBs pre-snap reads are incredibly important. If the QB isn't able to recognize what the defense is doing in coverage with type coverage and disguises then he will struggle.

The reason Tebow looks different in games is b/c he extends plays and forces defenses to respect his running ability. LBs can't drop quite as deep and the DL has to maintain contain as well as get after the QB. In training camp this isn't a part of the defense. They are practicing their coverages and Tebow is restricted to the pocket. Nobody should expect Tebow to outperform guys like Orton or Quinn in that setting. That simply is not the strength of his game and I have to wonder if it will ever be a strength he develops.

I would take a lot of what you hear out of camp with a grain of salt and realize the script will benefit certain players more than others. If we were strictly a passing team from the pocket I would be more concerned, but we're going to be a passing team with the occasional bootleg type pass. I'll take the more athletic QB any time.

MacGruder
07-31-2011, 08:10 AM
Good post Broncoman13, one question though.. do you think they would tell Tebow not to run and allow Quinn to run because I heard Quinn busted out a long run at one point.

Maybe Tebow is focused on not running to improve even though he could.

But this goes to what I was saying about instincts. If Tebow isn't being allowed to play his game and change all his mechanics and footwork that is a recipe for disaster. If they want him to do that they should have never drafted him. It makes even less sense to ask him to change things then demote him to third string too...

Dr. Broncenstein
07-31-2011, 08:11 AM
Remember when Moreno caught fire and gashed the Chiefs for 161 yards last year? Then we abandoned that because "eventually you have to pass." Then Orton couldn't hit water from a boat? Something like eight straight in-completions and a sack-fumble? Solid veteran stuff right there. At least he rebounded with a few completions in the losing effort to the Arizona Feeleys.

Circle Orange
07-31-2011, 09:31 AM
That is completely flawed though.. Orton always looks great in training camp and is horrible in actual games. So again.. we know this. There is no reason to continue to make the same mistakes over and over.

Repeating the same actions and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. That sums up NFL teams and fansbases..



I have already told you.. the drills in practice are not representative of actual games. Apparently Orton and Quinn should be emulating Tebow in his drills not the other way around.



Football is a game of athleticism.. skill isn't the only factor.. in fact in today's NFL is appears to be far less important than athleticism.

There are many college QBs that are tremendously skilled but don't have the physical tools to compete in the NFL.. This is why Orton and Quinn should not be getting starter reps. They are not skilled enough to overcome their lack of intangibles and athleticism. It's that simple. Ignoring that is ignoring the reality of the situation.

Uh, Quinn is athletic and mobile. And pretty much the same size as Tebow. He has the eyes-in-the-back-of-his head. A qb can't get by just being an athlete. You gotta have game as the physical stuff takes a beating, or you won't last. Have to have instinct for throwing, reading the field, accuracy and release. Mental toughness. And oh yeah, winning. This obsession with athleticism over everything is a cover for one dimensional players that have to run. Well, let 'em run. Run into linebackers, defensive ends, and safeties. After year five and the knee braces arrive, then what? No skill for the position? Then get labeled as a bust, probably. What's so unique about Tebow's skill set? He doesn't even have a super arm. We've seen guys run and move before.

Shoot, if any cluck 6'4" and standing tall could play, it would be easy. The Nfl is littered with 'prototype' guys that never were.

Broncoman13
07-31-2011, 09:40 AM
Good post Broncoman13, one question though.. do you think they would tell Tebow not to run and allow Quinn to run because I heard Quinn busted out a long run at one point.

Maybe Tebow is focused on not running to improve even though he could.

But this goes to what I was saying about instincts. If Tebow isn't being allowed to play his game and change all his mechanics and footwork that is a recipe for disaster. If they want him to do that they should have never drafted him. It makes even less sense to ask him to change things then demote him to third string too...

Two things, "they" didn't draft him.

Second, Quinn is probably not nearly as restricted as Tebow. The staff is probably placing a huge emphasis on progressions for Tebow. While he is likely allowed to run, it's not helping them to diagnose the play during the film review and it's a "lost" rep for Tebow.

As camp rolls forward I fully expect Tebow to play more and more naturally. He is behind the curve right now. I wasn't sure what to expect with him early on, but it does make sense that he would be behind. The part that concerns me is that he is far enough behind that the staff appears to believe it would be wasted reps for the receivers if he were in there with the first team. That is not a good sign at all. You can bet the staff would like to see him throwing to the Lloyds, Royals and Deckers... but right now it looks like they think he is far enough behind that it would actually waste reps for those receivers as well... not a good sign at all.

Bob's your Information Minister
07-31-2011, 10:04 AM
Remember when Moreno caught fire and gashed the Chiefs for 161 yards last year? Then we abandoned that because "eventually you have to pass."

That had a lot more to do with the defensive scheme the Chiefs were playing than anything Moreno did.

But I agree that was some dumb playcalling.

MacGruder
07-31-2011, 10:08 AM
Uh, Quinn is athletic and mobile. And pretty much the same size as Tebow. He has the eyes-in-the-back-of-his head. A qb can't get by just being an athlete. You gotta have game as the physical stuff takes a beating, or you won't last.

I really think this is a myth in this era. Pocket passers seem to be in more peril than runners. Vick was injured last season in the pocket and running last season. As was Aaron Rodgers.

And while Quinn has some athletic tools he doesn't seem to have the passing instincts in game.

Have to have instinct for throwing, reading the field, accuracy and release. Mental toughness. And oh yeah, winning. This obsession with athleticism over everything is a cover for one dimensional players that have to run. Well, let 'em run. Run into linebackers, defensive ends, and safeties. After year five and the knee braces arrive, then what?

Again, pocket passers are no safer. If not worse off. Plus.. by the time Tebow's body starts breaking down he can transition to more of a passer like Vick did last season but Tebow has a head start on him.

No skill for the position? Then get labeled as a bust, probably. What's so unique about Tebow's skill set? He doesn't even have a super arm. We've seen guys run and move before.

I don't know what's going on this year but Tebow was said to have a better arm than Orton and Quinn last season. And he had a better YPA in his three starts than Orton. And Tebow has no NFL experience. That should be humiliating for Kyle.

Shoot, if any cluck 6'4" and standing tall could play, it would be easy. The Nfl is littered with 'prototype' guys that never were.

This any cluck outperformed every rookie in his first three starts.

OABB
07-31-2011, 10:09 AM
That had a lot more to do with the defensive scheme the Chiefs were playing than anything Moreno did.

But I agree that was some dumb playcalling.

sadly this is true. however, with one less defender in the box to go unblocked, moreno showcased what could happen if the line made a block once and a while.

Broncoman13
07-31-2011, 10:16 AM
Uh, Quinn is athletic and mobile. And pretty much the same size as Tebow. He has the eyes-in-the-back-of-his head. A qb can't get by just being an athlete. You gotta have game as the physical stuff takes a beating, or you won't last. Have to have instinct for throwing, reading the field, accuracy and release. Mental toughness. And oh yeah, winning. This obsession with athleticism over everything is a cover for one dimensional players that have to run. Well, let 'em run. Run into linebackers, defensive ends, and safeties. After year five and the knee braces arrive, then what? No skill for the position? Then get labeled as a bust, probably. What's so unique about Tebow's skill set? He doesn't even have a super arm. We've seen guys run and move before.

Shoot, if any cluck 6'4" and standing tall could play, it would be easy. The Nfl is littered with 'prototype' guys that never were.

Tebow has a good 25-30 lbs on Quinn, not nearly the same size.

Tebow's arm is probably the strongest on the team. I thought this whole arm strength thing was put to rest last year???

Tebow's skillset is unique only if/when he improves as a traditional passer. I see him as very similar to Ben Rothlisberger in terms of their early on skillset. It took Big Ben a few years to get the offense down and develop timing, now he is a unique QB b/c he keeps plays alive like few others.

I think a lot of people miss the mental aspect of the position. The reason a guy like Kurt Warner was so successful had more to do with his mental preparation than his passing ability. I'm sure everyone has heard the stories about his 48 different route deviations that he could call on any given pass play based on his pre-snap read. Talk about mental prep!!!


Here is how I see it, if Tebow were just standing there throwing at a target he can throw with velocity and accurately with no problem (as just about any QB can do). Introduce a three/five/seven step drop and that accuracy decreases a little bit, but the real problem is timing. B/c of slow play recognition/diagnosis (defense) you end up with a lot less accuracy, mainly due to timing. The point is, it is mental more than it is physical. Kurt Warner could sit back and diagnose a defense before the snap and know exactly when and where his receiver would get open. Mentally, he was as good as any QB that has ever played and will likely be a HOF QB b/c of it. Tim Tebow has said that he has a learning disability and has to do in order to learn. The staff could easily be taking that into consideration right now and rather than taking reps away from the first teamers they are having Tebow work with the scout team. I have no idea if that is the case, but it certainly makes sense.

This is how I see it, if Michael Vick can be taught to read a defense and develop timing and touch, I have no doubt that Tebow can as well. It will however take him time to develop the ability to hone his throwing ability. Timing and touch have a lot to do with how you spin a ball. I think I read somewhere that he was working on developing his touch by throwing all kinds of different rotations... This is something that a QB like Kyle Orton or Sam Bradford likely learned a long time ago, probably early in college and possibly before. It probably comes a lot more naturally to them as well. It also explains why Tebow is more accurate downfield as opposed to short and intermediate. Downfield he can just let it fly which is an easier throw than trying to use a different rotation to slow the ball down.

I hope that Tebow will have the time to develop. I am in the camp that wants to see him play. But I am also realistic with my expectations. I hope that the Front Office will be patient and let him develop but I do know that Elway is very intrigued by Andrew Luck. That doesn't mean he will draft him, just that he likes what he sees.

Dr. Broncenstein
07-31-2011, 10:19 AM
sadly this is true. however, with one less defender in the box to go unblocked, moreno showcased what could happen if the line made a block once and a while.

McD also showcased what he could do to himself, if given enough rope.

errand
07-31-2011, 11:05 AM
this is dumb. Probably because they know we won't trade him.

and we wouldn't trade him why? Even those who worship him say he's an "unknown" commodity...and it's not like we don't have a servicable QB to hold the fort down until we draft another hot shot guy, right?

And i think that if a team offers the right price ANY player is for sale, i mean it's not like we're talking about Manning or Brady here...we're talking about a guy that 90% of the league believes is a project at best.

And if like was stated by another poster, the league is QB starved, and Orton sucks according to you and the rest, then why wouldn't someone offer us enough to get Tebow instead?

errand
07-31-2011, 11:10 AM
It's not about effort.. it's about coaches inability to understand what works on the training field in different scenarios than actual games.

If the training camp is played like an actual game then it will translate.. and then there is no "judgment call" really made. But that isn't how it is done.

Like I said.. coaches can't even determine who can really play based on 4 year careers in college. How is a non contact scrimmage going to really tell them any more?

As I have said before.. Orton and Quinn appeared to outplay Tebow in training camp last season and he outplayed them in real games with less experience and in a terrible situation. Nothing really illustrates i better.

To use another NBA analogy.. Charles Barkley always says there are tons of guys who are great shooters in practice.. but when they get in real games it completely disappears. Nothing illustrates that better than Orton versus Tebow...

Wow, so you're saying that people who do it for a living don't know what they're doing? So we should ignore what the coaches think but go into battle with your infinite wisdom?

MacGruder
07-31-2011, 11:13 AM
Wow, so you're saying that people who do it for a living don't know what they're doing? So we should ignore what the coaches think but go into battle with your infinite wisdom?

There has never been a player like Tebow before.

After Tebow's first win Steve Young said Tebow should revolutionize the league.

He didn't say Tebow needs to completely overhaul his game. It appears Fox and Elway are living in the past.

Mike Vick was arguably the league MVP last year and he wasn't even the starter out of training camp. what more do you need to see to realize the NFL is changing and the coaches are behind the times?

mhgaffney
07-31-2011, 11:23 AM
With the right coach Vick would go to the SB

errand
07-31-2011, 11:34 AM
I don't believe I said I'd trade orton for a fifth, but I also don't understand the point of keeping him around

If we can't trade him and he's not the starter we should keep him because if Tebow gets injured or stinks the joint up we won't have to turn to the clown car for depth. Remember how bad it was when Orton got hurt?

errand
07-31-2011, 11:39 AM
LOLI kinda look at it like this ortons game absolutely depends on the offensive line keeping everything off him that's when orton usually screws things up cause he has zero speed to get out of trouble and keep a play alive he also like to throw into coverage when on the run.



So why not just fix the OL problems...it'll not only provide him the protection he (and every QB) needs to succeed it'll also improve our running game (another neccessity for success) and might even solve alot of our short yardage problems. Instead you blame one guy for a team's problems

errand
07-31-2011, 11:40 AM
FO has Effed up.
They've given Orton all the cards. He's been led to believe he can start AND earn 8 million by staying in Denver.
Orton should have been demoted to #2 from the get go. That would have given him the incentive to restructure his contract for Miami, or any team where he could start.

So why isn't anyone asking why John Elway still has a job?

Cito Pelon
07-31-2011, 11:43 AM
Pretty interesting that underrated said in the "camp" thread that the coaches were telling TT to just relax and play ball.

errand
07-31-2011, 11:44 AM
I don't know about other people, but I root for any bronco player to do well.

Exactly....root for the team, not any one player is my motto. I don't care if they bring TJ down outta the stands and put him under center, I'll cheer for him to do well...

errand
07-31-2011, 11:53 AM
2009- SD 32 @ DEN 3
2008- SD 38 @ DEN 39
2007- SD 41 @ DEN 3
2006- SD 35 @ DEN 27

:wave:

146-72 deficit....and you still think the QB matters? I'd say it has more to do with the quality of the defenses faced than who's facing them

errand
07-31-2011, 12:10 PM
If Tebow's accuracy isn't good in games then why did he have a better YPA than Orton who is supposedly accurate?

Doesn't add up.
.

YPA has nothing to do with accuracy as it does how many yards are gained passing.....

Yards passing divided by numer of pass attempts...

Example QB drops back and throws 10 times...completes only 1 pass for 89 yards...his average per attempt is 8.9 which is a very high number. It's really simple math dude......

errand
07-31-2011, 12:17 PM
Not at all.. I am just trying to avert another disaster... people are so freakin reactionary.

How people can forget last season and repeat the same exact thing is unbelievable to me.. but it's happening.

I actually HOPE Orton starts this year.. because I think he will tank fast.. but now I am worried Tebow won't even have a chance to start this season. Fox and Elway are probably so daft they will play three QBs this season before Tebow.


Wow, I thought Elway was gonna save the franchise?

..and what if Orton doesn't tank?

In my opinion if Orton plays at the same level he did last season (prior to rib injury) and we fix the OL and defense, we definitely win 9-10 games and that probably get us into the playoffs.

By the same token if Tebow starts and we haven't solved the aforementioned problems with OL and D, then he too will look like he's incapable of doing anything right as well.

Circle Orange
07-31-2011, 12:17 PM
I really think this is a myth in this era. Pocket passers seem to be in more peril than runners. Vick was injured last season in the pocket and running last season. As was Aaron Rodgers.

And while Quinn has some athletic tools he doesn't seem to have the passing instincts in game.



Again, pocket passers are no safer. If not worse off. Plus.. by the time Tebow's body starts breaking down he can transition to more of a passer like Vick did last season but Tebow has a head start on him.



I don't know what's going on this year but Tebow was said to have a better arm than Orton and Quinn last season. And he had a better YPA in his three starts than Orton. And Tebow has no NFL experience. That should be humiliating for Kyle.



This any cluck outperformed every rookie in his first three starts.

I don't necessarily believe a qb is just "either/or" pocket passer or runner. And most qbs can do both to different degrees. Some guys move in the pocket and throw, some run and throw. There really aren't that many (if any) that just throw and don't move. The term "statue" is a cute cliche that doesn't hold true anymore. Bottom line is, they have to sell this guy. But let the field decide where he'll end up. All this training camp quibbling ain't gonna mean squat when the season starts. Just like some guys are overhyped, others are underhyped. We'll never know how many "great" qbs just got lucky in the right situation, and how many equally talented ones get derailed by injury or raggedy early careers.

Circle Orange
07-31-2011, 12:26 PM
Tebow has a good 25-30 lbs on Quinn, not nearly the same size.

Tebow's arm is probably the strongest on the team. I thought this whole arm strength thing was put to rest last year???

Tebow's skillset is unique only if/when he improves as a traditional passer. I see him as very similar to Ben Rothlisberger in terms of their early on skillset. It took Big Ben a few years to get the offense down and develop timing, now he is a unique QB b/c he keeps plays alive like few others.

I think a lot of people miss the mental aspect of the position. The reason a guy like Kurt Warner was so successful had more to do with his mental preparation than his passing ability. I'm sure everyone has heard the stories about his 48 different route deviations that he could call on any given pass play based on his pre-snap read. Talk about mental prep!!!


Here is how I see it, if Tebow were just standing there throwing at a target he can throw with velocity and accurately with no problem (as just about any QB can do). Introduce a three/five/seven step drop and that accuracy decreases a little bit, but the real problem is timing. B/c of slow play recognition/diagnosis (defense) you end up with a lot less accuracy, mainly due to timing. The point is, it is mental more than it is physical. Kurt Warner could sit back and diagnose a defense before the snap and know exactly when and where his receiver would get open. Mentally, he was as good as any QB that has ever played and will likely be a HOF QB b/c of it. Tim Tebow has said that he has a learning disability and has to do in order to learn. The staff could easily be taking that into consideration right now and rather than taking reps away from the first teamers they are having Tebow work with the scout team. I have no idea if that is the case, but it certainly makes sense.

This is how I see it, if Michael Vick can be taught to read a defense and develop timing and touch, I have no doubt that Tebow can as well. It will however take him time to develop the ability to hone his throwing ability. Timing and touch have a lot to do with how you spin a ball. I think I read somewhere that he was working on developing his touch by throwing all kinds of different rotations... This is something that a QB like Kyle Orton or Sam Bradford likely learned a long time ago, probably early in college and possibly before. It probably comes a lot more naturally to them as well. It also explains why Tebow is more accurate downfield as opposed to short and intermediate. Downfield he can just let it fly which is an easier throw than trying to use a different rotation to slow the ball down.

I hope that Tebow will have the time to develop. I am in the camp that wants to see him play. But I am also realistic with my expectations. I hope that the Front Office will be patient and let him develop but I do know that Elway is very intrigued by Andrew Luck. That doesn't mean he will draft him, just that he likes what he sees.

Tebow 6 3" 245 lbs
Quinn 6 3" 235 lbs
Orton 6 4" 225 lbs

10 pounds is no big deal. Good weight or butter fat? Who knows? Does it matter on the field? Is it enough to slow Tebow with his running? Most qbs at that weight run around a 4.8 to 5.1, good enough to get caught by most defenders.

I've heard no one around the league say Tebow had the strongest arm of this group. When did all this happen? None of these guys are known to have super cannons, so again, it's a wash.

If people like Tebow, fine. I've no problem with the guy. But crazy gushing ain't gonna win games this season. There's no official announcement as to the starter, but count on it being Orton.

errand
07-31-2011, 12:56 PM
No.. that's not what I am saying.. I am saying that Orotn's accuracy and skills mean nothing if he isn't capable of doing the same thing in games. He has ALREADY shown that is the case.. training camp can never change that. It's less about what Tebow can or can't do and completely about what Orton has already proven he can't do.

McDaniels was an incredibly talented offensive coach and still couldn't make Orton an even decent QB nor could he keep him healthy. Fox is not the offensive coach McD was and cannot possibly raise Orton's level of play.. in fact it will likely be worse.

Tebow also shows his play made the run game and defense raise their level of play.

Tebow outscored Orton with no preparation and no experience.

If Orton can't prove he has improved in those areas in camp he can't possibly win the starting job in camp drills over what Tebow proved in actual games.

Tebow vs Raiders converted 2 of 12 3rd downs (16%) and completed 50% of his passes....to his credit he didn't throw a pick and he ran for 87 yards and a TD (40 yard run)

Tebow vs Texans converted 5 of 11 3rd downs (45%) and completed 55% of his passes, throwing for 1 TD and rushing for the game winner (6 yarder) He also had a fumble that he recovered.

Tebow vs Chargers converted 5 of 14 3rd downs (35%) and completed 44% of his passes....he threw for 2 TD's and rushed for 94 yards and another TD, but he also threw 2 INT's

So for the season Tebow converted 12 of 37 3rd downs (32.4%) and completed 50% of his passes and had a 1-1 TD to INT ratio....Orton by contrast converted 55 of 168 3rd downs (32.7%) and completed 59% of his passes and had a 2-1 TD to INT ratio.

So I'm guessing every one is just in love with Tebows running ability......because he clearly didn't throw the ball better or convert 3rd downs any better than Orton did.

Broncoman13
07-31-2011, 12:59 PM
Tebow 6 3" 245 lbs
Quinn 6 3" 235 lbs
Orton 6 4" 225 lbs

10 pounds is no big deal. Good weight or butter fat? Who knows? Does it matter on the field? Is it enough to slow Tebow with his running? Most qbs at that weight run around a 4.8 to 5.1, good enough to get caught by most defenders.

I've heard no one around the league say Tebow had the strongest arm of this group. When did all this happen? None of these guys are known to have super cannons, so again, it's a wash.

If people like Tebow, fine. I've no problem with the guy. But crazy gushing ain't gonna win games this season. There's no official announcement as to the starter, but count on it being Orton.

Butter fat on Tebow??? 5.1??? Good enough to get caught by most defenders??? WTF Planet have you been living on?

errand
07-31-2011, 01:04 PM
That had a lot more to do with the defensive scheme the Chiefs were playing than anything Moreno did.

But I agree that was some dumb playcalling.

Then why didn't you clowns change it up if the defense you were running wasn't working?

Broncoman13
07-31-2011, 01:10 PM
Tebow vs Raiders converted 2 of 12 3rd downs (16%) and completed 50% of his passes....to his credit he didn't throw a pick and he ran for 87 yards and a TD (40 yard run) First career start in a notably difficult environment. Not a good game, but not bad for a first timer.

Tebow vs Texans converted 5 of 11 3rd downs (45%) and completed 55% of his passes, throwing for 1 TD and rushing for the game winner (6 yarder) He also had a fumble that he recovered. Worst pass D in the league I believe, so those numbers are a bit inflated b/c of the competition. I will remember this game for his rallying of the troops more than I will his statistical performance.

Tebow vs Chargers converted 5 of 14 3rd downs (35%) and completed 44% of his passes....he threw for 2 TD's and rushed for 94 yards and another TD, but he also threw 2 INT's Another game in which he rallied the troops and hung in there. I think this just goes to show you that right now he is a better leader than he is a QB. Don't know if that is necessarily a good thing.

So for the season Tebow converted 12 of 37 3rd downs (32.4%) and completed 50% of his passes and had a 1-1 TD to INT ratio....Orton by contrast converted 55 of 168 3rd downs (32.7%) and completed 59% of his passes and had a 2-1 TD to INT ratio. Interesting how close the 3rd down conversion % is. I would've guessed that Orton's would be a bit better. Honestly, neither one of those is going to win games on a consistent basis. Also consider Tebow's running ability and TD runs. I think the TD:INT ratio needs to improve, but if you figure the running TDs into that equation in the long run, Tebow will likely be well above the 1:1. Really would like to see a 3:1 ratio by any QB.

So I'm guessing every one is just in love with Tebows running ability......because he clearly didn't throw the ball better or convert 3rd downs any better than Orton did.
Probably a safe bet. I know that is a big part of why I prefer Tebow. That and the fact that he won't fall into the fetal at the first sign of pressure. It's also has something to do with the fact that you're comparing a seasoned veteran to a rookie in his first three starts.




Thanks for the perspective. I actually feel better about throwing Tebow out there now. The numbers aren't so different that you can justify going down a notch in leadership (from Tebow's ability to rally the troops).

Gort
07-31-2011, 01:51 PM
FO has Effed up.
They've given Orton all the cards. He's been led to believe he can start AND earn 8 million by staying in Denver.
Orton should have been demoted to #2 from the get go. That would have given him the incentive to restructure his contract for Miami, or any team where he could start.

here's the cherry on top of this sh*t sundae:

let's say the Broncos start 1-5 or 2-6 and Orton is sucking badly in all the usual ways. then what? you can't bench Orton because he will divide the locker room like a sulking teenager. and if you do bench Orton, Tebow will have been getting 2nd team snaps all season and won't be ready to step in to a new offense. and if he does and fails, then the Tebow haters will be out in droves claiming that he's a failure and needs to be traded so that we can start all over again with Luck.

this season could be even longer than 2010 if we get off to a bad start to the season.

oubronco
07-31-2011, 01:52 PM
here's the cherry on top of this sh*t sundae:

let's say the Broncos start 1-5 or 2-6 and Orton is sucking badly in all the usual ways. then what? you can't bench Orton because he will divide the locker room like a sulking teenager. and if you do bench Orton, Tebow will have been getting 2nd team snaps all season and won't be ready to step in to a new offense. and if he does and fails, then the Tebow haters will be out in droves claiming that he's a failure and needs to be traded so that we can start all over again with Luck.

this season could be even longer than 2010 if we get off to a bad start to the season.

It's imminent at this point

Gort
07-31-2011, 01:53 PM
Tebow vs Raiders converted 2 of 12 3rd downs (16%) and completed 50% of his passes....to his credit he didn't throw a pick and he ran for 87 yards and a TD (40 yard run)

Tebow vs Texans converted 5 of 11 3rd downs (45%) and completed 55% of his passes, throwing for 1 TD and rushing for the game winner (6 yarder) He also had a fumble that he recovered.

Tebow vs Chargers converted 5 of 14 3rd downs (35%) and completed 44% of his passes....he threw for 2 TD's and rushed for 94 yards and another TD, but he also threw 2 INT's

So for the season Tebow converted 12 of 37 3rd downs (32.4%) and completed 50% of his passes and had a 1-1 TD to INT ratio....Orton by contrast converted 55 of 168 3rd downs (32.7%) and completed 59% of his passes and had a 2-1 TD to INT ratio.

So I'm guessing every one is just in love with Tebows running ability......because he clearly didn't throw the ball better or convert 3rd downs any better than Orton did.

Tebow was a rookie last year. Orton was in his 6th(?) year. so basically you're saying that a rookie was just as good on 3rd down as a 6th year player, right? :)

Rascal
07-31-2011, 02:21 PM
Tebow playing with scout team and Quinn/Orton splitting time with first.

Somebody please shoot me. I will not watch a single game this year if we start Orton/Quinn (barring injury to Tebow).

WolfpackGuy
07-31-2011, 02:52 PM
here's the cherry on top of this sh*t sundae:

let's say the Broncos start 1-5 or 2-6 and Orton is sucking badly in all the usual ways. then what? you can't bench Orton because he will divide the locker room like a sulking teenager. and if you do bench Orton, Tebow will have been getting 2nd team snaps all season and won't be ready to step in to a new offense. and if he does and fails, then the Tebow haters will be out in droves claiming that he's a failure and needs to be traded so that we can start all over again with Luck.

this season could be even longer than 2010 if we get off to a bad start to the season.

A bad start and a LONG season is a distinct possibilty no matter who is under center.

On paper, they should beat the Bengals in week 2.

Of the remaining games, they MAY be able to take the Titans, Lions, and Bills in weeks 3, 8, and 16.

The team isn't doing anything other than risking a full scale fan riot if it sticks with Orton as starter.

HAT
07-31-2011, 02:55 PM
http://freefootballwallpapers.com/wallpapers/kyle_orton_wallpaper.jpg

broncosteven
07-31-2011, 02:56 PM
A bad start and a LONG season is a distinct possibilty no matter who is under center.

On paper, they should beat the Bengals in week 2.

Of the remaining games, they MAY be able to take the Titans, Lions, and Bills in weeks 3, 8, and 16.

The team isn't doing anything other than risking a full scale fan riot if it sticks with Orton as starter.

I don't see how we can beat the Lions. Bungles, Titans and Bills should be our 3 wins.

WolfpackGuy
07-31-2011, 03:01 PM
I don't see how we can beat the Lions. Bungles, Titans and Bills should be our 3 wins.

I see your point.

Maybe Fairley and Suh will come down with borderline personality disorder before they eat Walton.

Drek
07-31-2011, 03:10 PM
I don't see how we can beat the Lions. Bungles, Titans and Bills should be our 3 wins.

The Lions have shored up basically their entire starting lineup and have elite talents at several key positions right now. One of their key acquisitions, Tulloch, already knows their system and will hit the ground running. The Lions will probably blow us out by double digits.

myMind
07-31-2011, 03:14 PM
So much positivity in this thread!
Think Im gonna throw up.

SoCalBronco
07-31-2011, 03:16 PM
Tebow playing with scout team and Quinn/Orton splitting time with first.

Somebody please shoot me. I will not watch a single game this year if we start Orton/Quinn (barring injury to Tebow).

Yeah...see, this is what the team doesn't understand. It doesn't matter if Orton is still more polished than Tebow. Nobody wants to see Orton or Quinn play. We already have to accept that this is going to be a very bad year, we'd like a little excitement in the game to make it fun and take our minds and eyes off of the scoreboard. Tebow makes it fun, even if it gets a little wild and unorthodox and sloppy at times. Outside of the hardcore fans, most casual fans will not watch garbage football that is also boring at the same time and they won't buy jerseys and all the plastic crap that Bowlen is peddling. Tebow needs to start regardless of who wins the competition.

Mogulseeker
07-31-2011, 03:47 PM
Tebow has a good 25-30 lbs on Quinn, not nearly the same size.

Tebow's arm is probably the strongest on the team. I thought this whole arm strength thing was put to rest last year???

Tebow's skillset is unique only if/when he improves as a traditional passer. I see him as very similar to Ben Rothlisberger in terms of their early on skillset. It took Big Ben a few years to get the offense down and develop timing, now he is a unique QB b/c he keeps plays alive like few others.

I think a lot of people miss the mental aspect of the position. The reason a guy like Kurt Warner was so successful had more to do with his mental preparation than his passing ability. I'm sure everyone has heard the stories about his 48 different route deviations that he could call on any given pass play based on his pre-snap read. Talk about mental prep!!!


Here is how I see it, if Tebow were just standing there throwing at a target he can throw with velocity and accurately with no problem (as just about any QB can do). Introduce a three/five/seven step drop and that accuracy decreases a little bit, but the real problem is timing. B/c of slow play recognition/diagnosis (defense) you end up with a lot less accuracy, mainly due to timing. The point is, it is mental more than it is physical. Kurt Warner could sit back and diagnose a defense before the snap and know exactly when and where his receiver would get open. Mentally, he was as good as any QB that has ever played and will likely be a HOF QB b/c of it. Tim Tebow has said that he has a learning disability and has to do in order to learn. The staff could easily be taking that into consideration right now and rather than taking reps away from the first teamers they are having Tebow work with the scout team. I have no idea if that is the case, but it certainly makes sense.

This is how I see it, if Michael Vick can be taught to read a defense and develop timing and touch, I have no doubt that Tebow can as well. It will however take him time to develop the ability to hone his throwing ability. Timing and touch have a lot to do with how you spin a ball. I think I read somewhere that he was working on developing his touch by throwing all kinds of different rotations... This is something that a QB like Kyle Orton or Sam Bradford likely learned a long time ago, probably early in college and possibly before. It probably comes a lot more naturally to them as well. It also explains why Tebow is more accurate downfield as opposed to short and intermediate. Downfield he can just let it fly which is an easier throw than trying to use a different rotation to slow the ball down.

I hope that Tebow will have the time to develop. I am in the camp that wants to see him play. But I am also realistic with my expectations. I hope that the Front Office will be patient and let him develop but I do know that Elway is very intrigued by Andrew Luck. That doesn't mean he will draft him, just that he likes what he sees.

While your Roethlisberger comparisons are solid - at least on the football field - if Tebow has the strongest arm on the team, he isn't showing it in camp.

errand
07-31-2011, 05:37 PM
This has been puzzling me honestly. There's all this talk of how much better Orton has looked, yet as far as I'm aware he's thrown the most interceptions of any of them so far. I really don't get it. Interceptions are kind of a big deal.

I thought it didn't matter what you did in practice as long as you don't do it come game time? Or does that only apply to Tebow?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
07-31-2011, 05:52 PM
Yeah...see, this is what the team doesn't understand. It doesn't matter if Orton is still more polished than Tebow. Nobody wants to see Orton or Quinn play. We already have to accept that this is going to be a very bad year, we'd like a little excitement in the game to make it fun and take our minds and eyes off of the scoreboard. Tebow makes it fun, even if it gets a little wild and unorthodox and sloppy at times. Outside of the hardcore fans, most casual fans will not watch garbage football that is also boring at the same time and they won't buy jerseys and all the plastic crap that Bowlen is peddling. Tebow needs to start regardless of who wins the competition.

Even if it ruins his long-term potential?

The guy was RAW when he came in... and we're expecting him to just be fine and "fun to watch"? First of all, watching a quarterback stumble through a gameplan isn't all that fun to watch. Second, depending on what transpires on the field, he could very well get injured, or lose his confidence, or both if he doesn't 100% understand what he's doing. Is it worth it to start him now?

I say it isn't.

I'm ready for the losing to be over too, but not at the expense of his long-term potential. Throw him in when he hasn't earned it, I think that's exactly what you risk.

errand
07-31-2011, 06:09 PM
Thanks for the perspective. I actually feel better about throwing Tebow out there now. The numbers aren't so different that you can justify going down a notch in leadership (from Tebow's ability to rally the troops).

I've said it many times that I have confidence in both guys...just giving people the facts so they can make their own decisions....People are dumping on Orton but Tebow's 3rd down conversion rate wasn't better despite his ability to "make things happen" when the play breaks down.

Last year Orton was sacked 34 times or 2.6 times per game,,,and yet Tebow who is bigger stronger faster and more mobile was sacked 6 times in 3 games or 2 times per...now one could argue that Tebow's inexperience might have led to some of those sacks but then again others would ask how can this more mobile QB that will transcend the game is sacked almost as much per game as the alleged statue Kyle Orton.


I'm just curious as to what Orton ever did to these guys and the only conclusion I've come to is that he's Kyle Orton, and not Tim Tebow.

errand
07-31-2011, 06:11 PM
here's the cherry on top of this sh*t sundae:

let's say the Broncos start 1-5 or 2-6 and Orton is sucking badly in all the usual ways. then what? you can't bench Orton because he will divide the locker room like a sulking teenager. and if you do bench Orton, Tebow will have been getting 2nd team snaps all season and won't be ready to step in to a new offense. and if he does and fails, then the Tebow haters will be out in droves claiming that he's a failure and needs to be traded so that we can start all over again with Luck.

this season could be even longer than 2010 if we get off to a bad start to the season.

Then maybe someone needs to tell Tim that he needs to practice like he plays

errand
07-31-2011, 06:13 PM
Tebow was a rookie last year. Orton was in his 6th(?) year. so basically you're saying that a rookie was just as good on 3rd down as a 6th year player, right? :)

Yeah, sure if that's all you got...but his TD-INT ratio and completion % is head and shoulders above the rooks...but feel free to ignore that

bronco militia
07-31-2011, 06:16 PM
I'm ready to move on without Orton, Tebow, and quinn....

Tim
07-31-2011, 06:21 PM
Yeah, sure if that's all you got...but his TD-INT ratio and completion % is head and shoulders above the rooks...but feel free to ignore that
The stat that is most important to me is points per game. In K.O.'s 13 starts last year the team scored 21+ points 3 times, in Tebow's 3 starts the team scored 21+ points each game.

Gort
07-31-2011, 06:21 PM
Yeah, sure if that's all you got...but his TD-INT ratio and completion % is head and shoulders above the rooks...but feel free to ignore that

i prefer a better W/L record over meaningless QB stats, but that's just me. hell, i'll take a "3 yards and cloud of dust" offense any day if it means winning the AFC West again.

Orton is a competent game manager. he's not a leader. he has no long term future in Denver. maybe Elway and Fox are afraid to get rid of their only real veteran QB in their first year on the job, i don't know... but keeping Orton will cause them more problems in the long run than not.

errand
07-31-2011, 06:44 PM
Yeah...see, this is what the team doesn't understand. It doesn't matter if Orton is still more polished than Tebow. Nobody wants to see Orton or Quinn play.

Tebow needs to start regardless of who wins the competition.

I recall in 1983 Dan Reeves letting the "fans" and media pick his starting QB...Steve Deberg was a 5 year vet and Elway the hot shot rookie...

Reeves named elway the starter and the fans were ecstatic....and he promptly went out and laid an egg...his first start he completed 1 of 8 for 14 yards with an INT and was brutalized by the Steeler's pass rush being sacked 5 or 6 times...

Deberg came in and saved the day...and he continued to save the day for the first 6 games John started by winning 3 of them...when Elway was benched the Broncos under Deberg won their next 4 games (elway did play well in a relief stint)

Elway after sitting and learning over those next few weeks came back and showed he was ready to become the hall of fame QB he was....

Now from a physical ability stand point elway was 10 times the athlete Deberg was...but as far as running the offense and absorbing the playbook, he was an infant.

The point being is that no matter how physically gifted Tebow is and how much he fills the stands and fires up the team, he's still a mere babe in the woods right now going thru his 2nd OC in his second year....it would be unwise to dump the one guy we know who can run the offense because he's not as fast or strong.

bowtown
07-31-2011, 06:48 PM
I recall in 1983 Dan Reeves letting the "fans" and media pick his starting QB...Steve Deberg was a 5 year vet and Elway the hot shot rookie...

Reeves named elway the starter and the fans were ecstatic....and he promptly went out and laid an egg...his first start he completed 1 of 8 for 14 yards with an INT and was brutalized by the Steeler's pass rush being sacked 5 or 6 times...

Deberg came in and saved the day...and he continued to save the day for the first 6 games John started by winning 3 of them...when Elway was benched the Broncos under Deberg won their next 4 games (elway did play well in a relief stint)

Elway after sitting and learning over those next few weeks came back and showed he was ready to become the hall of fame QB he was....

Now from a physical ability stand point elway was 10 times the athlete Deberg was...but as far as running the offense and absorbing the playbook, he was an infant.

The point being is that no matter how physically gifted Tebow is and how much he fills the stands and fires up the team, he's still a mere babe in the woods right now going thru his 2nd OC in his second year....it would be unwise to dump the one guy we know who can run the offense because he's not as fast or strong.

He has the same OC as he had last year.

snowspot66
07-31-2011, 06:48 PM
The problem with that comparison is Elway was the QB for the next three or four years regardless of if his play was good or not. We only have one year to find out what Tebow has. If we don't find out we'll be drafting a new QB.

errand
07-31-2011, 06:49 PM
The stat that is most important to me is points per game. In K.O.'s 13 starts last year the team scored 21+ points 3 times, in Tebow's 3 starts the team scored 21+ points each game.

So? the same argument was made to justify Jake being dumped for Jay...and well, now we got Orton.

errand
07-31-2011, 06:53 PM
i prefer a better W/L record over meaningless QB stats, but that's just me. hell, i'll take a "3 yards and cloud of dust" offense any day if it means winning the AFC West again.

Orton is a competent game manager. he's not a leader. he has no long term future in Denver. maybe Elway and Fox are afraid to get rid of their only real veteran QB in their first year on the job, i don't know... but keeping Orton will cause them more problems in the long run than not.

Oh, Ok...Orton's record as our starter is 11-17...Tebow's is 1-2

39% is better than 33%...not much, but still better considering he stinks according to you

Agamemnon
07-31-2011, 06:53 PM
The problem with that comparison is Elway was the QB for the next three or four years regardless of if his play was good or not. We only have one year to find out what Tebow has. If we don't find out we'll be drafting a new QB.

And what seems to be missing in all of this is that we can't afford to draft a QB again so soon having not even given our most recent 1st round QB a legitimate shot. It's a waste of resources, and again we will find ourselves not addressing DT in the 1st round. The prospect is pretty miserable. If Tebow is dropped after only two years I really don't know how long it will be until we return to the playoffs. Five years doesn't seem too far off to be honest.

Gort
07-31-2011, 06:53 PM
So? the same argument was made to justify Jake being dumped for Jay...and well, now we got Orton.

Shanny dumped Jake for Jay because he realized he'd never get to the SB with Jake.

do you think Orton is going to be leading this team to the SB? ever??

snowspot66
07-31-2011, 06:54 PM
Shanny dumped Jake for Jay because he realized he'd never get to the SB with Jake.

do you think Orton is going to be leading this team to the SB? ever??

Also, Jake **** the bed in 06.

Gort
07-31-2011, 06:57 PM
Oh, Ok...Orton's record as our starter is 11-17...Tebow's is 1-2

39% is better than 33%...not much, but still better considering he stinks according to you

i know you have an obstructed view hanging from Orton's nuts, but did you actually see Orton play last year? the guy had no fire. no emotion. no playmaking ability. give him time against a lesser defense and he can complete a pass (except those games where he was injured but wouldn't tell anyone and couldn't hit the side of a barn), but the minute you pressure him he collapsed like a house of cards. whatever issues Tebow has, the one thing he doesn't lack at this stage in his career is a fire in his belly, a desire to win and prove people wrong, and the ability to inspire his teammates. Orton's the kind of guy who scrambles for a 2 or 3 yard pickup and slides to avoid the defender who is 10 yards away. Tebow is the kind of guy who puts his head down and challenges the defender to bring him down. that might not make a lot of sense as a QB, but it is the kind of attitude you want to see from your team leader.

errand
07-31-2011, 06:58 PM
The problem with that comparison is Elway was the QB for the next three or four years regardless of if his play was good or not. We only have one year to find out what Tebow has. If we don't find out we'll be drafting a new QB.

What? If we fail this year we can watch Orton leave via free agency and Tebow with another season under his belt take over in '12...keep in mind he's on his 2nd OC in two years. Having to learn a new offense all over can slow his development and really hurt us long term. aaron rodgers sat for 2-3 years and he turned out OK.

Gort
07-31-2011, 06:59 PM
Also, Jake **** the bed in 06.

take a good look at Orton's final few games in 2010. he **** the bed, turned over the mattress, and then **** it again.

how have people forgotten how bad he was? i couldn't bear to watch a couple of those games. it was brutal. the guy had no rhythm at all. we were getting soundly beaten by bad teams. hell, Jay Feely single handedly beat us!

errand
07-31-2011, 07:00 PM
He has the same OC as he had last year.

Then his struggles are now even more puzzling.....

errand
07-31-2011, 07:02 PM
take a good look at Orton's final few games in 2010. he **** the bed, turned over the mattress, and then **** it again.

how have people forgotten how bad he was? i couldn't bear to watch a couple of those games. it was brutal. the guy had no rhythm at all. we were getting soundly beaten by bad teams. hell, Jay Feely single handedly beat us!

You do know that he had a rib cage injury those last couple of games he started right? Kyle's only fault was probably not being honest with coaching staff and trainers as to the extent of his injury

bombay
07-31-2011, 07:04 PM
I hope the guys who offer to bail on the Broncos if this happens or if that happens do so, and stay away. They're probably the same group of clowns that sell their tickets to Pittsburgh and KC fans so I have to sit by those jokers.

errand
07-31-2011, 07:05 PM
Also, Jake **** the bed in 06.

Jake went 10-6, 10-6, 12-4 and 7-4 as our starter....I'm guessing you clowns miss those **** stains now, huh?

Gort
07-31-2011, 07:05 PM
You do know that he had a rib cage injury those last couple of games he started right? Kyle's only fault was probably not being honest with coaching staff and trainers as to the extent of his injury

yes, i know that. he was still awful. do those games not count just because he was injured? and then to have him pout about not starting the final 3 games was the topping on the cake. either he's really selfish... or, well... he's really selfish. i can't really find any other reason he was upset that he didn't get to start those final 3 games after his preceding crappy performances.

barryr
07-31-2011, 07:06 PM
I happen to like Orton, but he needs to go as soon as possible and where the Broncos get some quality return. Tebow adds elements, such as mobility and playmaking, that Orton can't.

In reality, Orton is a system QB who needs a strong running game and receivers that can make big plays. It would be nice if had a defense too so did not have to score 35 points as game just to have a chance to win too.

For Orton to put up the numbers he did the last 2 years minus a solid run game and no defense, I think shows he is a legit starter in the NFL, but has limitations that need to be helped with other players around him. He does not appear to be a guy that can make the big play very often, especially late in games.

Gort
07-31-2011, 07:06 PM
Jake went 10-6, 10-6, 12-4 and 7-4 as our starter....I'm guessing you clowns miss those **** stains now, huh?

1-3 in the playoffs is what sealed his fate

Agamemnon
07-31-2011, 07:07 PM
I hope the guys who offer to bail on the Broncos if this happens or if that happens do so, and stay away. They're probably the same group of clowns that sell their tickets to Pittsburgh and KC fans so I have to sit by those jokers.

Personally I can't really blame guys for wanting to sale their tickets when being forced to watch Orton and our crappy D. Though they should really try to sell them to Bronco fans.

Dr. Broncenstein
07-31-2011, 07:07 PM
You do know that he had a rib cage injury those last couple of games he started right? Kyle's only fault was probably not being honest with coaching staff and trainers as to the extent of his injury

See wha what ha happened was...

Beantown Bronco
07-31-2011, 07:07 PM
you can't bench Orton because he will divide the locker room like a sulking teenager.

Any evidence of this whatsoever? Any? Please provide.

Did it happen in Chicago? Nope.
Did it happen here last year? Nope.

bombay
07-31-2011, 07:10 PM
I'm ready to move on without Orton, Tebow, and quinn....

Yes. So there is no point in building an offense around a guy that wouldn't be useful for a real NFL QB.

Dagmar
07-31-2011, 07:10 PM
Then his struggles are now even more puzzling.....

You haven't answered the question do you believe this team can get to a superbowl with Kyle Orton? or even win a playoff game?

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
07-31-2011, 07:10 PM
Yeah, Orton's a great practice player.....woopty frickin doo.

Gort
07-31-2011, 07:10 PM
I happen to like Orton, but he needs to go as soon as possible and where the Broncos get some quality return. Tebow adds elements, such as mobility and playmaking, that Orton can't.

In reality, Orton is a system QB who needs a strong running game and receivers that can make big plays. It would be nice if had a defense too so did not have to score 35 points as game just to have a chance to win too.

For Orton to put up the numbers he did the last 2 years minus a solid run game and no defense, I think shows he is a legit starter in the NFL, but has limitations that need to be helped with other players around him. He does not appear to be a guy that can make the big play very often, especially late in games.

did he ever lead a 4th quarter comeback victory as a Bronco? i know about the lucky bounce to Stokely in CIN, but other than that, with Denver down by 10 to start the 4th quarter, would anyone here feel as if Orton could pull out the game? i never have.

last year we had the TEN game as well, with a fluke ending going our way to balance out the fluke ending that went the way of the NYJ, but has Orton ever shown us in 2 years that he's actually capable of putting a team on his shoulders and willing it to victory? i haven't seen it. i don't think i've even seen him upset after a loss. the only time he's been upset is when Tebow was drafted and he's apparently still holding a grudge about that.

Agamemnon
07-31-2011, 07:12 PM
I happen to like Orton, but he needs to go as soon as possible and where the Broncos get some quality return. Tebow adds elements, such as mobility and playmaking, that Orton can't.

In reality, Orton is a system QB who needs a strong running game and receivers that can make big plays. It would be nice if had a defense too so did not have to score 35 points as game just to have a chance to win too.

For Orton to put up the numbers he did the last 2 years minus a solid run game and no defense, I think shows he is a legit starter in the NFL, but has limitations that need to be helped with other players around him. He does not appear to be a guy that can make the big play very often, especially late in games.

I think we're going to see a huge drop in Orton's production since he won't get the chance to pass on 1st and 2nd downs constantly. With a more conservative offense we're going to find ourselves in more 3rd down situations, and he's going to be asked to convert. And we all know he sucks at that. Look for Orton to revert to his Chicago self with this new offensive philosophy.

barryr
07-31-2011, 07:14 PM
did he ever lead a 4th quarter comeback victory as a Bronco? i know about the lucky bounce to Stokely in CIN, but other than that, with Denver down by 10 to start the 4th quarter, would anyone here feel as if Orton could pull out the game? i never have.

last year we had the TEN game as well, with a fluke ending going our way to balance out the fluke ending that went the way of the NYJ, but has Orton ever shown us in 2 years that he's actually capable of putting a team on his shoulders and willing it to victory? i haven't seen it. i don't think i've even seen him upset after a loss. the only time he's been upset is when Tebow was drafted and he's apparently still holding a grudge about that.

The Dallas game I believe the year before he did, but you're right, he has not done much of that. Sure, it is not all on the QB in reality, the others need to do their jobs too, but lack of mobility hurts him at that time of the game.

Gort
07-31-2011, 07:14 PM
Any evidence of this whatsoever? Any? Please provide.

Did it happen in Chicago? Nope.
Did it happen here last year? Nope.

yes, it happened last year. everyone in the Denver media was talking about it. even Dave Logan said at the end of last season that Orton had to go because of locker room issues. Orton has made no secret of the fact that 1) he expects to be the starter, 2) he expects to be paid alot, and 3) he doesn't like Tebow and won't talk to Tebow and won't help mentor Tebow.

even so far in training camp this year the beat reporters have reported on the tension in camp. Brady Quinn refused to answer any questions about the Orton/Tebow relationship. Tebow has politely sidestepped the issue when asked about it.

there is a real problem there that people in Dove Valley are afraid to confront so they are trying to avoid it.

didn't Kupe's dad come on here and talk about how Orton took much of the offense out on the town in Vegas but didn't invite Tebow?

snowspot66
07-31-2011, 07:25 PM
Jake went 10-6, 10-6, 12-4 and 7-4 as our starter....I'm guessing you clowns miss those **** stains now, huh?

Jake was great for us. However, the effort he put forth in 06 was garbage. It's like he didn't even want the job.

errand
07-31-2011, 07:26 PM
Shanny dumped Jake for Jay because he realized he'd never get to the SB with Jake.

do you think Orton is going to be leading this team to the SB? ever??

I must have missed the Super Bowls Jay took us to....

Oh, and should we order our tickets for the Super Bowl if/when Tim's named our starter?

BTW Jake's one of only 3 QB's in our entire history to win a playoff game.....and we were closer to SB with him than without him

The Moops
07-31-2011, 07:26 PM
What ... in 7 on 7 drills? When they're in shorts and helmets?

Let's wait for some preseason games ...

Game On!

errand
07-31-2011, 07:27 PM
Jake was great for us. However, the effort he put forth in 06 was garbage. It's like he didn't even want the job.

Kind of hard to do your job when 75,000 people are calling for your benching after an incompletion

errand
07-31-2011, 07:29 PM
1-3 in the playoffs is what sealed his fate

0 playoff seasons in the time since he was benched is the hindsight

elsid13
07-31-2011, 07:31 PM
He has the same OC as he had last year.

When did we hire McDaniel's back? Let face the fact that McCoy was assistant offense coordinator and McD did all the heavy lifting last two seasons.

errand
07-31-2011, 07:32 PM
You haven't answered the question do you believe this team can get to a superbowl with Kyle Orton? or even win a playoff game?

Yes...i do...our problem isn't scoring 20 points a game...it's allowing 25-30 a game

I also believe Tebow can take us there as well...when he's ready. right now he's not ready

MacGruder
07-31-2011, 07:32 PM
One thing I wanted to inform people about.. Urban Meyer said that Tebow is the kind of guy who in everything he does tries to OVER-achieve. Meyer said when Tebow runs in a touchdown he doesn't just want to do that.. he wants to hurdle 2 guys and stiff arm some guys helmet off and do a back flip.

I think this could be what causes Tebow issues at times.. because he is trying to be too perfect whether it is with his footwork or being too accurate.

This might hurt him in some short term situations BUT in the long run I bet it is what makes Tebow such a great player and winner. That attitude he has...

MacGruder
07-31-2011, 07:33 PM
Yes...i do...our problem isn't scoring 20 points a game...it's allowing 25-30 a game

I also believe Tebow can take us there as well...when he's ready. right now he's not ready

That was what people said all last season then Tebow dramatically outplayed Orton with no prep time.

errand
07-31-2011, 07:34 PM
Any evidence of this whatsoever? Any? Please provide.

Did it happen in Chicago? Nope.
Did it happen here last year? Nope.

From all reports there is no locker room problems with the team....Kyle has his team's full support as I'm sure Tim does too. They like I have confidence that either guy can win games for us......it's the defense that worries me

MacGruder
07-31-2011, 07:36 PM
From all reports there is no locker room problems with the team....Kyle has his team's full support as I'm sure Tim does too. They like I have confidence that either guy can win games for us......it's the defense that worries me

The defense and running game improved when Tebow played. This seems to refute what you are saying. Just sayin.

errand
07-31-2011, 07:38 PM
did he ever lead a 4th quarter comeback victory as a Bronco? i know about the lucky bounce to Stokely in CIN, but other than that, with Denver down by 10 to start the 4th quarter, would anyone here feel as if Orton could pull out the game? i never have.

last year we had the TEN game as well, with a fluke ending going our way to balance out the fluke ending that went the way of the NYJ, but has Orton ever shown us in 2 years that he's actually capable of putting a team on his shoulders and willing it to victory? i haven't seen it. i don't think i've even seen him upset after a loss. the only time he's been upset is when Tebow was drafted and he's apparently still holding a grudge about that.

Nobody ever said he was able to carry a team...all his supporters have said is he's the best for us right now and that he's not the garbage you clowns claim he is...

BTW he beat NE in overtime in '09 and Dallas led 10-0 before he led us from behind to win it 17-10

Agamemnon
07-31-2011, 07:39 PM
The defense and running game improved when Tebow played. This seems to refute what you are saying. Just sayin.

Not so sure about the defense improving. We still gave up nearly 30 points per game I believe. The offense was certainly better though. It could actually score points.

WolfpackGuy
07-31-2011, 07:42 PM
did he ever lead a 4th quarter comeback victory as a Bronco? i know about the lucky bounce to Stokely in CIN, but other than that, with Denver down by 10 to start the 4th quarter, would anyone here feel as if Orton could pull out the game? i never have.

Dallas game in 2009 as barryr mentioned, but that was after an unreal catch and run by Marshall to break the tie after 3+ quarters of generally sucking and not to mention a game saving goalline stand by the defense at the end.

errand
07-31-2011, 07:43 PM
I think we're going to see a huge drop in Orton's production since he won't get the chance to pass on 1st and 2nd downs constantly. With a more conservative offense we're going to find ourselves in more 3rd down situations, and he's going to be asked to convert. And we all know he sucks at that. Look for Orton to revert to his Chicago self with this new offensive philosophy.

Well he was 21-12 in chicago as a starter...so I'll look forward to him reverting back to his "chicago self"

As for the team running the ball more and limiting his chances to throw...that's OK...I suspect if we're successful running the ball he'll have to convert 3rd and 3 instead of 3rd and 8 all the time

errand
07-31-2011, 07:45 PM
Dallas game in 2009 as barryr mentioned, but that was after an unreal catch and run by Marshall to break the tie after 3+ quarters of generally sucking and not to mention a game saving goalline stand by the defense at the end.

Wow.....you're transparent dude. Had Tebow threw an errant pass that was caught and ran in, it'd be just another reason to trade Kyle

errand
07-31-2011, 07:48 PM
didn't Kupe's dad come on here and talk about how Orton took much of the offense out on the town in Vegas but didn't invite Tebow?

Given Tebow's virgin, christian, squeaky clean image I'd doubt he'd have accepted a trip to vegas if it were offered

Gort
07-31-2011, 07:49 PM
0 playoff seasons in the time since he was benched is the hindsight

so what exactly is your point?

that Shanny sucked in his final years? i agree.
that McD sucked? i agree.
that Plummer was better than Cutler? in hindsight i agree.
that Orton was better than Cutler? i agree.

let me make this simple.

why do you hate Tebow?

my argument is not that Tebow is going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. none of us know what he is going to be because HE HASN'T YET HAD A CHANCE TO SHOW US.

however, i do know what Orton is. he's a competent QB for a well-rounded team. he could take a team like MIN to the playoffs. but that's not what we have here in Denver. 2011 is going to be a brutal season. why should we start Orton and not let Tebow get a shot now, before the Luck sweepstakes? we've seen that in games last season, Tebow looked much better than his naysayers said he ever would.

was he perfect? no. but he was an improvement over the play of Orton in the preceding weeks.

so what is your problem with Tebow? is it because he's a Christian? because that's about the only thing that seems to be common among the Tebow haters. they don't like him because they don't like his religious beliefs. other than that? i don't see how anyone could have an issue with him. he's not a thug. he's not an a-hole. he seems to be the ideal young QB from a PR point of view. or maybe it's because he was a Gator and you rooted for some other SEC team.

at this point i don't really know what motivates the irrational hatred for Tebow.

MacGruder
07-31-2011, 07:49 PM
Not so sure about the defense improving. We still gave up nearly 30 points per game I believe. The offense was certainly better though. It could actually score points.

In the Raiders game (Tebow's first start) before they blinked with Tebow, the raider's offense was playing much worse than the previous game against the Broncos. And that was at home.

The raiders O didn't explode till that 4th quarter when they got over protective with Tebow.

That fits into my theory that Orton's lack of aggression on offense is what takes pressure off opposing offenses and causes them to over-achieve.

You could see the same thing sin the other games too. When they were conservative with Tebow the opposing offense played well. When they let Tebow be aggressive the opposing offenses stalled relatively.

errand
07-31-2011, 07:50 PM
When did we hire McDaniel's back? Let face the fact that McCoy was assistant offense coordinator and McD did all the heavy lifting last two seasons.

What's scary is that we might have fired the one guy who could have made Tebow the top notch QB we hope he'll become...Josh McDaniels

errand
07-31-2011, 07:52 PM
That was what people said all last season then Tebow dramatically outplayed Orton with no prep time.

Tebow took starter's reps in practice the last 3 weeks of season..Orton was injured and was limited in the two practices prior as well

MacGruder
07-31-2011, 07:52 PM
What's scary is that we might have fired the one guy who could have made Tebow the top notch QB we hope he'll become...Josh McDaniels


They should hire Urban Meyer or Dan Mullen (Tebow's O coordinator at UF) to be the offensive coordinator.

MacGruder
07-31-2011, 07:54 PM
Tebow took starter's reps in practice the last 3 weeks of season..Orton was injured and was limited in the two practices prior as well

Relatively no prep. Orton had the whole training camp, a year in McD's system and years of experience in the NFL and Tebow still outplayed him. That should be humiliating.

Gort
07-31-2011, 07:55 PM
Given Tebow's virgin, christian, squeaky clean image I'd doubt he'd have accepted a trip to vegas if it were offered

that's one school of thought. i don't recall Kupe's dad verifying one way or the other. however it was perceived as a deliberate snub. even if Tebow wouldn't go, if you're on good terms, you at least make the offer. i seem to recall that Orton made no effort. this is just hearsay of course... i don't feel like digging up that old thread, but the notion that there is locker room issues between the two is not new and it is real. if Orton is benched for Tebow, you will have a fractured locker room. that's pretty much a fact. like i said, Dave Logan talked about this at length when wrapping up the 2010 season. it was his opinion that you couldn't start Tebow and have Orton in the backup role because too many guys would feel a sense of loyalty to Orton for his two season as starter. of course, if they're winning under Tebow, that loyalty will fade quickly.

errand
07-31-2011, 07:57 PM
The defense and running game improved when Tebow played. This seems to refute what you are saying. Just sayin.

Umm, no it didn't...we gave up 39...23...and 33 points in the games....an average of 32 per game Tebow started.

How you consider that improvement is beyond comprehension

Also the rushing numbers were inflated because he ran for 94 yards vs San Diego and 60 some vs Raiders. Our running game sucked...our running QB however was able to make a few long scrambles though.

Broncos4Life
07-31-2011, 08:10 PM
Umm, no it didn't...we gave up 39...23...and 33 points in the games....an average of 32 per game Tebow started.

How you consider that improvement is beyond comprehension

Also the rushing numbers were inflated because he ran for 94 yards vs San Diego and 60 some vs Raiders. Our running game sucked...our running QB however was able to make a few long scrambles though.

Who gives a **** about stats?!
They just dont matter much with him!

The bottom line is that when Tebow was on the field for the last 3 weeks just about every Broncos fan and Broncos player, offense and defense, knew we had a chance to win games. I wasn't a huge Tebow fan when we drafted the kid either, but I didn't feel nervous watching Tebow, even with his ****ed up throw style, like I did when Orton-ary dropped back to throw.

errand
07-31-2011, 08:10 PM
why do you hate Tebow?

I don't hate him clown...I've said I'm confident in BOTH QB's ability to win games for us
my argument is not that Tebow is going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. none of us know what he is going to be because HE HASN'T YET HAD A CHANCE TO SHOW US.

Ok...and my argument is that Orton isn't the garbage you and your posse of ass clowns claim he is. you claim he hasn't had the chance to show us...fair enough...so why can't you admit that Orton is getting alot of undeserved blame for the past 4-12 season where our defense went ass up for every opponent we played

however, i do know what Orton is. he's a competent QB for a well-rounded team. he could take a team like MIN to the playoffs. but that's not what we have here in Denver. 2011 is going to be a brutal season. why should we start Orton and not let Tebow get a shot now, before the Luck sweepstakes? we've seen that in games last season, Tebow looked much better than his naysayers said he ever would.

So if you believe he can win in Minnesota, why can't he do likewise in Denver?

And if starting him means we get Luck...how is that a bad thing?

so what is your problem with Tebow? is it because he's a Christian? because that's about the only thing that seems to be common among the Tebow haters. they don't like him because they don't like his religious beliefs. other than that? i don't see how anyone could have an issue with him. he's not a thug. he's not an a-hole. he seems to be the ideal young QB from a PR point of view. or maybe it's because he was a Gator and you rooted for some other SEC team.

Umm, I'm a Christian, spent alot of my life in Jacksonville FL ....it has nothing to do with his beliefs...it's just my belief that he's not ready yet, and even if he is, you don't get rid of a competent back-up
at this point i don't really know what motivates the irrational hatred for Tebow

You call it hatred cuz you're looking at this emotionally instead of logically

in bold

baja
07-31-2011, 08:20 PM
If Tebow becomes the Broncos starting QB and struggles this place is going to be a year of "Groundhog Day"

Heyneck
07-31-2011, 08:22 PM
<object width="640" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Bqx-lokJS2w&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Bqx-lokJS2w&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></embed></object>

Mayor lurker,...new to posting. Not sure if it will embed correctly. I came across this video in denverbroncos.com. This is what tebow is all about! Look at the defenders reactions. Kyle wouldn't have made it out of that pocket.

Bronx33
07-31-2011, 08:32 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqx-lokJS2w

Mayor lurker,...new to posting. Not sure if it will embed correctly. I came across this video in denverbroncos.com. This is what tebow is all about! Look at the defenders reactions. Kyle wouldn't have made it out of that poket.


I tend to agree that the pocket sloth would have been flat on his back a bit earlier in the play.

Broncos4Life
07-31-2011, 08:34 PM
“We’d upgrade that position if there’s somebody that much better available,” Ross said. “I don’t think there is really anybody that would drop that far, outstanding [enough] that you’d say is much better than Chad to upgrade that position to start with
- Stephan Ross-Dolphins owner....

Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/07/30/2336699/dolphins-rookie-running-back-daniel.html#ixzz1TkDypeDx

scorpio
07-31-2011, 08:43 PM
Wed upgrade that position if theres somebody that much better available, Ross said. I dont think there is really anybody that would drop that far, outstanding [enough] that youd say is much better than Chad to upgrade that position to start with
- Stephan Ross-Dolphins owner....

Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/07/30/2336699/dolphins-rookie-running-back-daniel.html#ixzz1TkDypeDx

I would say that too if the fans were at my throat for not getting a deal done.

Agamemnon
07-31-2011, 09:09 PM
In the Raiders game (Tebow's first start) before they blinked with Tebow, the raider's offense was playing much worse than the previous game against the Broncos. And that was at home.

The raiders O didn't explode till that 4th quarter when they got over protective with Tebow.

That fits into my theory that Orton's lack of aggression on offense is what takes pressure off opposing offenses and causes them to over-achieve.

You could see the same thing sin the other games too. When they were conservative with Tebow the opposing offense played well. When they let Tebow be aggressive the opposing offenses stalled relatively.

Keep in mind that our team made some massive mistakes and gave up several early big plays in the first Raider game and that just snowballed. The defense on its own didn't play much better the second time around. We just didn't have the catastrophic mistakes.

Agamemnon
07-31-2011, 09:11 PM
Wed upgrade that position if theres somebody that much better available, Ross said. I dont think there is really anybody that would drop that far, outstanding [enough] that youd say is much better than Chad to upgrade that position to start with
- Stephan Ross-Dolphins owner....

Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/07/30/2336699/dolphins-rookie-running-back-daniel.html#ixzz1TkDypeDx

Well I guess it could be worse right now. The prospect of watching Orton for another season sucks, but the prospect of watching Chad Henne or Matt Moore is far, far worse.

Agamemnon
07-31-2011, 09:16 PM
<object width="640" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Bqx-lokJS2w&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Bqx-lokJS2w&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></embed></object>

Mayor lurker,...new to posting. Not sure if it will embed correctly. I came across this video in denverbroncos.com. This is what tebow is all about! Look at the defenders reactions. Kyle wouldn't have made it out of that pocket.

LOL at Jason Hunter throwing his helmet in disgust. Relating to this now Cecil Lammey is saying Tebow had the best day at QB today. So really all this chatter about camp is just pointless. We need to see these guys in real games. And the reality remains that we have nothing to gain long-term from starting Orton.

Cecil Lammey:

Tebow had his ups and downs, but most exciting plays of practice came from him and Julius Thomas, yes I would say T2 the best QB today

zdoor
07-31-2011, 09:21 PM
Nice!!

<object width="640" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Bqx-lokJS2w&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Bqx-lokJS2w&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></embed></object>

Mayor lurker,...new to posting. Not sure if it will embed correctly. I came across this video in denverbroncos.com. This is what tebow is all about! Look at the defenders reactions. Kyle wouldn't have made it out of that pocket.