PDA

View Full Version : mCd's scrubs vs Shanny's scrubs


broncosteven
07-26-2011, 01:03 PM
Which coach will leave behind more players who don't make it on to another pro-football squad after getting cut.

Shanny set the bar pretty high but mCd, in his infinite wisdom, made a trade for Voltron and he drafted a dude who was arrested for teh Rape so it could be a closer race than it appears.

OABB
07-26-2011, 01:06 PM
my moneys on shanny.

snowspot66
07-26-2011, 01:07 PM
Which coach will leave behind more players who don't make it on to another pro-football squad after getting cut.

Shanny set the bar pretty high but mCd, in his infinite wisdom, made a trade for Voltron and he drafted a dude who was arrested for teh Rape so it could be a closer race than it appears.

Shanahan. Half the team never played again. That was pretty bad.

Rabb
07-26-2011, 01:15 PM
if Christmas could give a beej, it would almost be as awesome as today since we have football back and there is finally news worth reading

you gotta' let that McD hate go brother, and just be happy about this...go Broncos

TheReverend
07-26-2011, 01:25 PM
Depends on how many 4th stringers get cut...

broncosteven
07-26-2011, 01:27 PM
if Christmas could give a beej, it would almost be as awesome as today since we have football back and there is finally news worth reading

you gotta' let that McD hate go brother, and just be happy about this...go Broncos

For as much heat as I took for sticking to my guns about looking at the glass half full I am going to get as much mileage I can.

BTW it is a valid question, look at the roster.

ColoradoDarin
07-26-2011, 03:14 PM
:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse :deadhorse

broncosteven
07-26-2011, 03:27 PM
:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse :deadhorse

"Sure Sam, he is only going to be competing for THIRD string we just wanted to bring the competition to ALL positions, even QB. Don't worry your our guy that we want to run Josh's offense....(insert evil laugh here)"

Taylor Potts (QB, Texas Tech)


The Rams have Sam Bradford starting, obviously, and veteran A.J. Feeley as the backup. Last year they had Thad Lewis as the third string quarterback, and many fans are hoping he can develop into a possible wildcat option, but that will take some time.

Pott will compete with Lewis for the third string job. The advantage he had over Lewis is that he is 6'5" and 222 pounds, and is more of a pure passer.

The short and quick passes he used at Texas Tech is particularly appealing, since the Rams run an offense that uses short and intermediate routes.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/780271-outlining-the-undrafted-free-agent-signings-for-the-st-louis-rams

BroncoMan4ever
07-26-2011, 03:32 PM
Shanahan. Half the team never played again. That was pretty bad.

worse than that i think the only 1 who did was Dre Bly. not even half of his guys continued playing

TheReverend
07-26-2011, 03:51 PM
worse than that i think the only 1 who did was Dre Bly. not even half of his guys continued playing

Mmm hmm... and how many of them were PS guys? How many were at the end of their career anyway?

It's like holding Buckhalter against McDaniels. It was a better signing than I expected it to be... but anyone think he's gonna play again?

Look at our roster and probably 20-40% of the names you won't even know:

http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster.html

Cut them, most won't play again, and we can have another adorable presser by Xanders praising how well he and Fox work together!

broncosteven
07-26-2011, 03:55 PM
Mmm hmm... and how many of them were PS guys? How many were at the end of their career anyway?

It's like holding Buckhalter against McDaniels. It was a better signing than I expected it to be... but anyone think he's gonna play again?

Look at our roster and probably 20-40% of the names you won't even know:

http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster.html

Cut them, most won't play again, and we can have another adorable presser by Xanders praising how well he and Fox work together!

Which was my point.

TheReverend
07-26-2011, 03:59 PM
Which was my point.

I read ya loud and clear. Looks like plenty didn't though lol.

OABB
07-26-2011, 04:02 PM
Which was my point.

I understood this too, but my money's still on shanny.

at the very least it will be a fun thread when it happens.

TheReverend
07-26-2011, 04:03 PM
I understood this too, but my money's still on shanny.

at the very least it will be a fun thread when it happens.

The deciding factor is whether Fox feels it's an important PR move to cut crap that can't play just to replace it with crap that can't play.

BroncoMan4ever
07-26-2011, 04:31 PM
Mmm hmm... and how many of them were PS guys? How many were at the end of their career anyway?

It's like holding Buckhalter against McDaniels. It was a better signing than I expected it to be... but anyone think he's gonna play again?

Look at our roster and probably 20-40% of the names you won't even know:

http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster.html

Cut them, most won't play again, and we can have another adorable presser by Xanders praising how well he and Fox work together!

i am ot arguing some were never going to play anyway or others were done. but when roughly 35 players that were released by a new regime are let go and only 1 of them finds work afterwards, there was a massive cluster**** on the team the year prior.

although looking back at that fact, Shanahan was doing an incredible coaching job with basically nothing on that team.

TheReverend
07-26-2011, 04:39 PM
i am ot arguing some were never going to play anyway or others were done. but when roughly 35 players that were released by a new regime are let go and only 1 of them finds work afterwards, there was a massive cluster**** on the team the year prior.

although looking back at that fact, Shanahan was doing an incredible coaching job with basically nothing on that team.

Yeah, I'd totally agree if that were true.

But it's not true.

Not even ****ing close.

BroncoMan4ever
07-26-2011, 05:30 PM
Yeah, I'd totally agree if that were true.

But it's not true.

Not even ****ing close.

sorry i overestimated a bit. it was 29 players who were released or waived by McDaniels that were on the SHanahan roster the year prior.

of them only
Jamie Winborn - has played 8 games after release from Denver
Marquand Manuel - no longer in NFL
Niko Koutouvides - ST in Tampa
Dre Bly - no longer in NFL after 1 season with 49ers
Mike Leach - still LS in the league
Brett Kern - punting in Tennessee
Jack Williams - can't find much on him only played 1 game for Detroit in 2009 and is still on their roster
Joshua Bell - played in Green Bay for 4 games and then nothing

so of the 29 released or waived 8 of them played again. of the 8, 3 are no longer in the league, 3 are ST players in new cities, and 2 have had limited playing time after Denver in their new cities.

TheReverend
07-26-2011, 05:35 PM
sorry i overestimated a bit. it was 29 players who were released or waived by McDaniels that were on the SHanahan roster the year prior.

of them only
Jamie Winborn - has played 8 games after release from Denver
Marquand Manuel - no longer in NFL
Niko Koutouvides - ST in Tampa
Dre Bly - no longer in NFL after 1 season with 49ers
Mike Leach - still LS in the league
Brett Kern - punting in Tennessee
Jack Williams - can't find much on him only played 1 game for Detroit in 2009 and is still on their roster
Joshua Bell - played in Green Bay for 4 games and then nothing

so of the 29 released or waived 8 of them played again. of the 8, 3 are no longer in the league, 3 are ST players in new cities, and 2 have had limited playing time after Denver in their new cities.

Go ahead and list the others.

I'll wait.

DBroncos4life
07-26-2011, 05:38 PM
I would rather have the guys that are out of the NFL. We allowed less points with them when it was all said and done. Ha!

BroncoMan4ever
07-26-2011, 07:32 PM
Go ahead and list the others.

I'll wait.

WR Cliff Russell (released)
RB P.J. Pope (waived)
TE Chad Mustard (released)
RB Alex Haynes (released)
RB Anthony Alridge (released) Played 2009 on Washington's Practice Squad
DT Josh Shaw (released)
LB Jamie Winborn (released) Played in 2 games during 2009 season for Tennessee
DT Dewayne Robertson (released)
S Marquand Manuel (released) Played in 9 games starting 6 during 2009 for Detroit, injured reserve after game 9
LB Niko Koutouvides (released) Played in 16 gamed during 2009 for Tampa Bay
TE Nate Jackson (released) Signed on in 2009 with Cleveland for a short time and was subsequently cut
DE John Engelberger (released)
CB Dré Bly (released) Played in 16 games starting 6 during 2009 for San Francisco
TE/LS Mike Leach (released) Played in 16 games during 2009 for Arizona
RB Cory Boyd (waived)
QB Darrell Hackney (waived)
QB Jay Cutler (traded) Started 16 games during 2009 for Chicago
DE/OLB Tim Crowder (waived) played in 15 games starting 4 during 2009 for Tampa Bay
RB Selvin Young (waived)
S Herana-Daze Jones (released) Signed on in 2009 with New Orleans for a short time and was subsequently cut
TE Jeb Putzier (released)
C Kory Lichtensteiger (waived) Signed on with Minnesota for three games and was subsequently cut
WR Chad Jackson (waived)
DE Matthias Askew (waived) Signed on in 2009 with Detroit for a short time and was subsequently cut
DE Nic Clemons (waived)
P Brett Kern (waived) waived by Denver after playing in 6 games, was signed by Tennessee and played 10 games with the Titans
CB Jack Williams (waived) waived by Denver after playing in 7 games, was signed by Detroit and played in 1 game and was injured
CB Joshua Bell (waived/injured) Signed by Green Bay in Week 10, played in 4 games with the Packers
LB Boss Bailey
LB Louis Green


may not all have been starters but all were a part of SHanahan's final roster

ColoradoDarin
07-26-2011, 08:20 PM
:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse

Lev Vyvanse
07-26-2011, 08:32 PM
Just at a first glance. WTF are Cutler and Crowder doing on that list? Did you forget the point?

strafen
07-26-2011, 08:33 PM
Shanahan. Half the team never played again. That was pretty bad.

Even then, those "scrubs" that never played again, never embarrassed the organization to a 4-12 record.
/end thread

TheChamp24
07-26-2011, 08:34 PM
Want to take a look at a lot of guys from McD that will be gone really fast?
Lance Ball
Correll Buckhalter
Jeff Byers
Stanley Daniels
Britt Davis
Mario Haggan
Steven Hauschka
Nate Jones
Chevis Jackson
Lonnie Paxton
Brady Quinn
Lee Robinson
Cassius Vaughn
David Velkune
LenDale White
Matt Willis
Kyle Orton

Not all of those guys will be gone this year, but a lot of them will be out of football like a lot of those Shanny guys people bring up. Yes, a lot of guys are out of football from that 2008 squad. That happens with teams, especially ones that suffer loads of injuries like we did that year. 7 RB's on the IR, remember that folks? That means we had to sign an extra 5 RB's out of our ass to field a team that year.

snowspot66
07-26-2011, 08:47 PM
Even then, those "scrubs" that never played again, never embarrassed the organization to a 4-12 record.
/end thread

Swing and a miss.

Of course they didn't. Shanahan was a vastly superior game day coach. But that's not the point of the thread.

BroncoMan4ever
07-26-2011, 08:54 PM
Just at a first glance. WTF are Cutler and Crowder doing on that list? Did you forget the point?

my bad on that. basically i just copied and pasted the list of Shanahan guys who were gone after McDaniels took over. forgot to take off guys that were traded.

kind of got tired of arguing with Rev about it and didn't take the time to go through the list. ****er thinks he is Adam Schefter or something, and his **** gets old

Lev Vyvanse
07-26-2011, 09:05 PM
Niko Koutouvides, Marquand Manuel, Dré Bly, Mike Leach, and Brett Kern also don't belong on that list. I don't know what the number is, but 29 it is not.

BroncoMan4ever
07-26-2011, 09:10 PM
Niko Koutouvides, Marquand Manuel, Dré Bly, Mike Leach, and Brett Kern also don't belong on that list. I don't know what the number is, but 29 it is not.

i made mention of them in a previous post as players who were released or waived but were able to play elsewhere.

ward63
07-26-2011, 09:13 PM
Want to take a look at a lot of guys from McD that will be gone really fast?
Lance Ball
Correll Buckhalter
Jeff Byers
Stanley Daniels
Britt Davis
Mario Haggan
Steven Hauschka
Nate Jones
Chevis Jackson
Lonnie Paxton
Brady Quinn
Lee Robinson
Cassius Vaughn
David Velkune
LenDale White
Matt Willis
Kyle Orton

Not all of those guys will be gone this year, but a lot of them will be out of football like a lot of those Shanny guys people bring up. Yes, a lot of guys are out of football from that 2008 squad. That happens with teams, especially ones that suffer loads of injuries like we did that year. 7 RB's on the IR, remember that folks? That means we had to sign an extra 5 RB's out of our ass to field a team that year.

Lance, I believe has potential and I think (at least hope) that he will do pretty well being a 3rd RB in Fox's system. Haggan is a solid locker room guy and can play any LB position. As a back up of course. I don't see why we get rid of Paxton, unless its b/c of financial reasons. Vaughn is a solid return guy and dime man. LenDale, if healthy, will stick as a power back. It also depends on the Williams/McGahee/any other signing.

DBroncos4life
07-26-2011, 09:17 PM
To be fair Mike's list would clearly look better if he didn't take a year off from coaching ;)

Lev Vyvanse
07-26-2011, 09:17 PM
i made mention of them in a previous post as players who were released or waived but were able to play elsewhere.

So, the number is 22. I would bet this is going to be a photo finish.

BroncoMan4ever
07-26-2011, 09:22 PM
So, the number is 22. I would bet this is going to be a photo finish.

ok. works for me. all i care about it was a ****load of players that were not good enough to play elsewhere after being kicked out of Denver.

jhns
07-26-2011, 09:34 PM
For Shanahan, half the guys that didn't play again were signed mid season to cover for the extreme number of injuries we had that year. It was 29 that didn't play again, from a roster of like 79...

The offense was five times as talented and half the age.

broncosteven
07-26-2011, 09:41 PM
For Shanahan, half the guys that didn't play again were signed mid season to cover for the extreme number of injuries we had that year. It was 29 that didn't play again, from a roster of like 79...

The offense was five times as talented and half the age.

Excellent point, there was a reason CJ Pope was starting in week 15(?) vs Bills considering all the other RB's that went down.

broncosteven
07-26-2011, 09:43 PM
Want to take a look at a lot of guys from McD that will be gone really fast?
Lance Ball
Correll Buckhalter
Jeff Byers
Stanley Daniels
Britt Davis
Mario Haggan
Steven Hauschka
Nate Jones
Chevis Jackson
Lonnie Paxton
Brady Quinn
Lee Robinson
Cassius Vaughn
David Velkune
LenDale White
Matt Willis
Kyle Orton

Not all of those guys will be gone this year, but a lot of them will be out of football like a lot of those Shanny guys people bring up. Yes, a lot of guys are out of football from that 2008 squad. That happens with teams, especially ones that suffer loads of injuries like we did that year. 7 RB's on the IR, remember that folks? That means we had to sign an extra 5 RB's out of our ass to field a team that year.

Well done REP for you!

eddie mac
07-26-2011, 09:51 PM
It's probably easier to look at the guys they've dumped who've made a name for themselves elsewhere.

Only 2 come to mind for me. Clabo in Atlanta who was nothing more than a practice player under Shanny and off course Mr Madden 2012, traded by McD.

I'm at a loss to think of any other player we cut/traded for peanuts who've went on to further their career in the last few years.

BroncoMan4ever
07-26-2011, 10:01 PM
For Shanahan, half the guys that didn't play again were signed mid season to cover for the extreme number of injuries we had that year. It was 29 that didn't play again, from a roster of like 79...

The offense was five times as talented and half the age.

yet the offense was only scoring an average of 20 a game. right about where McDaniels offenses were. everyone pointed out that our offense was so prolific always forgets it was middle of the pack in terms of actual scoring, the true measuring stick for an offense.

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 07:02 AM
my bad on that. basically i just copied and pasted the list of Shanahan guys who were gone after McDaniels took over. forgot to take off guys that were traded.

kind of got tired of arguing with Rev about it and didn't take the time to go through the list. ****er thinks he is Adam Schefter or something, and his **** gets old

Sorry for the late reply, was at my gf's last night.

As for this post, that's probably because you're one of the worst posters of all time and quite frankly belong at broncomania.

"An average DT is more important than an all pro CB" remember that line? I guess we can expect Marcus Thomas to sign for more than Namdi then, eh dip****?

Brb dismantling your other horrible posts now.

jhns
07-27-2011, 07:04 AM
yet the offense was only scoring an average of 20 a game. right about where McDaniels offenses were. everyone pointed out that our offense was so prolific always forgets it was middle of the pack in terms of actual scoring, the true measuring stick for an offense.

Again, making stuff up doesn't help your argument.

WolfpackGuy
07-27-2011, 07:12 AM
Shanahan's last roster would've kicked the *hit out of McClueless' last roster regardless of where they are now.

Plus he didn't trade MULTIPLE PRIME draft picks for "halves" and "quarters" of players or whatever the justification was being thrown around.

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 07:21 AM
WR Cliff Russell (released)
RB P.J. Pope (waived)
TE Chad Mustard (released)
RB Alex Haynes (released)
RB Anthony Alridge (released) Played 2009 on Washington's Practice Squad
DT Josh Shaw (released)
LB Jamie Winborn (released) Played in 2 games during 2009 season for Tennessee
DT Dewayne Robertson (released)
S Marquand Manuel (released) Played in 9 games starting 6 during 2009 for Detroit, injured reserve after game 9
LB Niko Koutouvides (released) Played in 16 gamed during 2009 for Tampa Bay
TE Nate Jackson (released) Signed on in 2009 with Cleveland for a short time and was subsequently cut
DE John Engelberger (released)
CB Dré Bly (released) Played in 16 games starting 6 during 2009 for San Francisco
TE/LS Mike Leach (released) Played in 16 games during 2009 for Arizona
RB Cory Boyd (waived)
QB Darrell Hackney (waived)
QB Jay Cutler (traded) Started 16 games during 2009 for Chicago
DE/OLB Tim Crowder (waived) played in 15 games starting 4 during 2009 for Tampa Bay
RB Selvin Young (waived)
S Herana-Daze Jones (released) Signed on in 2009 with New Orleans for a short time and was subsequently cut
TE Jeb Putzier (released)
C Kory Lichtensteiger (waived) Signed on with Minnesota for three games and was subsequently cut
WR Chad Jackson (waived)
DE Matthias Askew (waived) Signed on in 2009 with Detroit for a short time and was subsequently cut
DE Nic Clemons (waived)
P Brett Kern (waived) waived by Denver after playing in 6 games, was signed by Tennessee and played 10 games with the Titans
CB Jack Williams (waived) waived by Denver after playing in 7 games, was signed by Detroit and played in 1 game and was injured
CB Joshua Bell (waived/injured) Signed by Green Bay in Week 10, played in 4 games with the Packers
LB Boss Bailey
LB Louis Green


may not all have been starters but all were a part of SHanahan's final roster

Okay so after cutting through all your qualifiers, we're now down to FIFTEEN (far cry from 29 lol) players that were cut from the "roster" and never played again in the NFL.

Let's take a closer look at this 15, shall we?

WR Cliff Russell (released) - was on roster for 2 games due to injury
RB P.J. Pope (waived) - was on roster due to RB injuries
TE Chad Mustard (released) - also not a part of original roster as linked below
RB Alex Haynes (released) - Active for 0 whole games
DT Josh Shaw (released) - Active for 5 games
DT Dewayne Robertson (released) - Knees
DE John Engelberger (released) - After a very mediocre 9 year career, pretty on par with a potential Haggan cut
RB Cory Boyd (waived) - Active for 1 game
QB Darrell Hackney (waived) - Active for 0 games
RB Selvin Young (waived) - Fully legitimate
TE Jeb Putzier (released) - Active for 2 games
WR Chad Jackson (waived) - Active for 4 games went on to Buffallo
DE Nic Clemons (waived) - Fully legitimate
LB Boss Bailey - Injuries but very legitimate
LB Louis Green - Fully legitimate

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=nfl&id=3572022

Sooooo... yikes... after we look through all the guys who were just injury filler, we can only find 6 players that were legitimate "roster" guys that didn't play in the NFL anymore. And that's being pretty generous considering 2 of them were massive injury concerns (Bailey and Robertson), 2 were never anymore than special teamers and reserve depth (Green and Clemons) and 1 was at the end of a long mediocre career.

Keep up the great work, **** for brains!

jhns
07-27-2011, 07:21 AM
Shanahan's last roster would've kicked the *hit out of McClueless' last roster regardless of where they are now.


Yeah, they would leave McFans in tears with the massive beatdown. It is crazy that people are still, to this day, trying to defend McDaniels. Why would you even have a nice thought about the guy that completely f'd the team you supposedly root for? I just don't get McFans..

BroncoMan4ever
07-27-2011, 07:25 AM
Shanahan's last roster would've kicked the *hit out of McClueless' last roster regardless of where they are now.

Plus he didn't trade MULTIPLE PRIME draft picks for "halves" and "quarters" of players or whatever the justification was being thrown around.

not saying Shanahan's last roster wouldn't have kicked McDaniels rosters ass in a game. in fact, i even gave Shanahan credit for being as good of a coach as he was with a lot of guys who once they were done in Denver never played again or played very sparingly. i am simply pointing out that a lot of what was on Shanahan's final roster was terrible and that it will be hard for the leftovers from McDaniels to be much worse.

and agreed, McDaniels draft philosophy was terrible. quantity didn't equal quality.

but realistically it can not be argued that outside of a handful of players(not really interested in debating the worth of some) he didn't exactly leave a stocked cupboard of available resources

OABB
07-27-2011, 07:27 AM
I take what I said about this being a good thread back. Both mcd and shanny made this team bad.
deal with it fans on both sides. Its fox and tebow time anyways. Im excited.

WolfpackGuy
07-27-2011, 07:30 AM
Yeah, they would leave McFans in tears with the massive beatdown. It is crazy that people are still, to this day, trying to defend McDaniels. Why would you even have a nice thought about the guy that completely f'd the team you supposedly root for? I just don't get McFans..

"Turn in your fan card!" was the rallying cry.

Beats the hell out of me so many people couldn't see what was going on.

I knew there would be trouble the minute I heard he wanted to trade for Cassel.

Drek
07-27-2011, 07:31 AM
Shanahan's last roster would've kicked the *hit out of McClueless' last roster regardless of where they are now.


There was very little loss of contributing players from '09 to '10 with McDaniels. Bannan was an upgrade from the '09 roster, we had more CB and WR depth, and we replaced Marshall with Lloyd.

The '09 team went 8-8, just like Shanahan's '08 team. The 2010 team's only real variables for negative change from the '09 squad was the loss of Doom and the replacement/musical chairs of coaches. Yet it dropped 4 games more.

I'd take the 2010 team over the '08 team based on player personnel alone. You add in coaches though and the '08 team obviously wins out.

As for the OP, this is a stacked question. McDaniels has more young players on his roster. A lot of guys who don't pan out here will get second and third chances in the league. Shanahan preferred giving guys their second or third chance. So obviously his washout rate will be higher. Add to that the shortened pre-season, reducing opportunities for new guys to steal jobs from last year's guys, and you've got a very stacked deck in favor of McDaniels.

BroncoMan4ever
07-27-2011, 07:32 AM
Okay so after cutting through all your qualifiers, we're now down to FIFTEEN (far cry from 29 lol) players that were cut from the "roster" and never played again in the NFL.

Let's take a closer look at this 15, shall we?

WR Cliff Russell (released) - was on roster for 2 games due to injury
RB P.J. Pope (waived) - was on roster due to RB injuries
TE Chad Mustard (released) - also not a part of original roster as linked below
RB Alex Haynes (released) - Active for 0 whole games
DT Josh Shaw (released) - Active for 5 games
DT Dewayne Robertson (released) - Knees
DE John Engelberger (released) - After a very mediocre 9 year career, pretty on par with a potential Haggan cut
RB Cory Boyd (waived) - Active for 1 game
QB Darrell Hackney (waived) - Active for 0 games
RB Selvin Young (waived) - Fully legitimate
TE Jeb Putzier (released) - Active for 2 games
WR Chad Jackson (waived) - Active for 4 games went on to Buffallo
DE Nic Clemons (waived) - Fully legitimate
LB Boss Bailey - Injuries but very legitimate
LB Louis Green - Fully legitimate

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=nfl&id=3572022

Sooooo... yikes... after we look through all the guys who were just injury filler, we can only find 6 players that were legitimate "roster" guys that didn't play in the NFL anymore. And that's being pretty generous considering 2 of them were massive injury concerns (Bailey and Robertson), 2 were never anymore than special teamers and reserve depth (Green and Clemons) and 1 was at the end of a long mediocre career.

Keep up the great work, **** for brains!

and once again just to be the dickhead poster with the i am smarter than everyone attitude, you miss the pmain idea of an original point that was made in order to satisfy your need to be an asshole. the point being these ****ers were all still on Shanahan's final roster and still around for McDaniels the following season. never said anything about the validity of the players, never said if they were worth a damn or that they were major contributors to the team, just that they were there on the roster and once released or waived the stunning majority did nothing after Denver. so how about instead of being an arrogant "i think i know it all" prick, how about you learn to comprehend what someone has written instead of looking for the quickest way to start an argument.

jhns
07-27-2011, 07:38 AM
There was very little loss of contributing players from '09 to '10 with McDaniels. Bannan was an upgrade from the '09 roster, we had more CB and WR depth, and we replaced Marshall with Lloyd.

The '09 team went 8-8, just like Shanahan's '08 team. The 2010 team's only real variables for negative change from the '09 squad was the loss of Doom and the replacement/musical chairs of coaches. Yet it dropped 4 games more.

I'd take the 2010 team over the '08 team based on player personnel alone. You add in coaches though and the '08 team obviously wins out.

As for the OP, this is a stacked question. McDaniels has more young players on his roster. A lot of guys who don't pan out here will get second and third chances in the league. Shanahan preferred giving guys their second or third chance. So obviously his washout rate will be higher. Add to that the shortened pre-season, reducing opportunities for new guys to steal jobs from last year's guys, and you've got a very stacked deck in favor of McDaniels.

One of yhe biggest McFans trying to back all the dumb **** he has said...

The 08 team also had ten times the injuries as the 09 team. They had players with less experience at thr most important posituons, like QB and LT. In fact, only three starters on offense had more than three years experience. With that, they still outperformed the 09 team by a lot on offense. If it weren't for Nolan, that more experienced and far less injured 09 team wouldn't have come close to 8 wins.

The 10 team was the worst team in franchise history. Wait, they were "just" the worst team in franchise history. Way to not make any sense McFans. You defenddd all of this crap as we became the worst team in franchise history. Your knowledge of football is very much in question.

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 07:39 AM
and once again just to be the dickhead poster with the i am smarter than everyone attitude, you miss the pmain idea of an original point that was made in order to satisfy your need to be an a-hole. the point being these ****ers were all still on Shanahan's final roster and still around for McDaniels the following season. never said anything about the validity of the players, never said if they were worth a damn or that they were major contributors to the team, just that they were there on the roster and once released or waived the stunning majority did nothing after Denver. so how about instead of being an arrogant "i think i know it all" prick, how about you learn to comprehend what someone has written instead of looking for the quickest way to start an argument.

I'm sorry, who was acting like a dickhead first? You wanna act like a dick while making horrid and ****ty points, fine I can play that game.

Also, NO half weren't on his "final roster". Do you know what a ****ing roster is?

So do you want to whine about getting treated badly or do you want to try and make a point?

I'm hoping for the latter, but since you're half retarded, I'm expecting the former.

jhns
07-27-2011, 07:42 AM
and once again just to be the dickhead poster with the i am smarter than everyone attitude, you miss the pmain idea of an original point that was made in order to satisfy your need to be an a-hole. the point being these ****ers were all still on Shanahan's final roster and still around for McDaniels the following season. never said anything about the validity of the players, never said if they were worth a damn or that they were major contributors to the team, just that they were there on the roster and once released or waived the stunning majority did nothing after Denver. so how about instead of being an arrogant "i think i know it all" prick, how about you learn to comprehend what someone has written instead of looking for the quickest way to start an argument.

Your point doesn't make sense because you make **** up and mever know your facts. You think he is being a prick because he is showing that you don't have a point. In other words, you are acting exactly like the guy you just described. You can't be wrong, everyone else is the problem!

Drek
07-27-2011, 07:44 AM
Yeah, they would leave McFans in tears with the massive beatdown. It is crazy that people are still, to this day, trying to defend McDaniels. Why would you even have a nice thought about the guy that completely f'd the team you supposedly root for? I just don't get McFans..

A lot of us don't think he completely ****ed this team. Did he do a good enough job? Nope and he's gone as a result. But he got rid of a mediocre QB who wanted stupid money two years out from FA, a WR who apparently can't help but get himself severely lacerated every other off-season, and a FB turned RB who Shanahan didn't want to start, McDaniels didn't want to start, and then even Cleveland didn't want to start until several other guys all got hurt.

Meanwhile he left us with a wealth of draft picks that have been used on high potential players. He didn't coach them for ****, but there is a large stockpile of young talent on this team waiting for John Fox to provide the structure and coaching needed to take this club to the next level.

I'm personally of the opinion that in two or three years we're going to look as stacked as San Diego did in the mid-2000's, assuming just most of the guys can get or stay healthy.

colonelbeef
07-27-2011, 07:46 AM
worse than that i think the only 1 who did was Dre Bly. not even half of his guys continued playing

stop exaggerating.

1/3 of NFL rosters turn over every year, this is nothing new.

Shanahan fielded a better team in his worst year than McDaniels ever did. Had McDaniels been kept through his contract, we'd be looking at a 2-14 season this year.

Stop comparing a future HOF head coach in Mike Shanahan to a fired coordinator in Joshie McDaniels.

jhns
07-27-2011, 07:46 AM
A lot of us don't think he completely ****ed this team. Did he do a good enough job? Nope and he's gone as a result. But he got rid of a mediocre QB who wanted stupid money two years out from FA, a WR who apparently can't help but get himself severely lacerated every other off-season, and a FB turned RB who Shanahan didn't want to start, McDaniels didn't want to start, and then even Cleveland didn't want to start until several other guys all got hurt.

Meanwhile he left us with a wealth of draft picks that have been used on high potential players. He didn't coach them for ****, but there is a large stockpile of young talent on this team waiting for John Fox to provide the structure and coaching needed to take this club to the next level.

I'm personally of the opinion that in two or three years we're going to look as stacked as San Diego did in the mid-2000's, assuming just most of the guys can get or stay healthy.

What horrible spins. McFans spinning to defend the worst thing to ever happen to this franchise. Very sad to see.

Drek
07-27-2011, 07:49 AM
One of yhe biggest McFans trying to back all the dumb **** he has said...

The 08 team also had ten times the injuries as the 09 team. They had players with less experience at thr most important posituons, like QB and LT. In fact, only three starters on offense had more than three years experience. With that, they still outperformed the 09 team by a lot on offense. If it weren't for Nolan, that more experienced and far less injured 09 team wouldn't have come close to 8 wins.

The 10 team was the worst team in franchise history. Wait, they were "just" the worst team in franchise history. Way to not make any sense McFans. You defenddd all of this crap as we became the worst team in franchise history. Your knowledge of football is very much in question.
Doesn't the bolded underscore my point? How would the '08 team have done with league average coaching, not Shanahan at the helm?

To that point, I wouldn't call Nolan the only significant loss to the '09 staff either. Dennison obviously played a large role in cobbling together a solid OL in '09 until injuries got the best of him. Studesville is a good RB coach but if you could ever picture a positional coach making the HoF Turner's got as good an argument as any.

You constantly have to label people looking to view the situation with optimistic perspective as "McFans" rather than engage in legitimate debate. It belies a feeling of weakness in your own argument.

jhns
07-27-2011, 07:57 AM
Doesn't the bolded underscore my point? How would the '08 team have done with league average coaching, not Shanahan at the helm?

To that point, I wouldn't call Nolan the only significant loss to the '09 staff either. Dennison obviously played a large role in cobbling together a solid OL in '09 until injuries got the best of him. Studesville is a good RB coach but if you could ever picture a positional coach making the HoF Turner's got as good an argument as any.

You constantly have to label people looking to view the situation with optimistic perspective as "McFans" rather than engage in legitimate debate. It belies a feeling of weakness in your own argument.

Does Slowik ring a bell? Case closed.

"Optimistic perspective" is defending the guy that tanked the franchise and led them to the worst ever season that this franchise has seen? Weird, I see it as you trying to spin all the crap you threw at the wall over the last two years. I can see why, you constantly typed five page posts defending everything he did. I can't have a real debate when everything you say is a spin of how McDaniels was great and Shanahan was horrible. Take the above post. You act like Shanahan had good coaching all over when one of his units had a far worse coach than anything we had the last two years. Ypu aren't resonable. No McFan is. There is no way to defend him if you are reasonable.

OABB
07-27-2011, 08:00 AM
Does Slowik ring a bell? Case closed.

"Optistic perspective" is defending the guy that tanked the franchise and led them to the worst ever season that this franchise has seen? Weird, I see it as you trying to spin all the crap you threw at the wall over the last two years. I can see why, you constantly typed five page posts defending everything he did. I can't have a real debate when everything you say is a spin of how McDaniels was great and Shanahan was horrible. Take the above post. You act like Shanahan had good coaching all over when one of his units had a far worse coach than anything we had the last two years. Ypu aren't resonable. No McFan is. There is no way to defend him if you are reasonable.

Who hired slowik? who hired nolan? why did you just pwn yourself? Not smart.

jhns
07-27-2011, 08:03 AM
Who hired slowik? who hired nolan? why did you just pwn yourself? Not smart.

How does that pwn myself? Someone isn't able to follow a conversation.

TheChamp24
07-27-2011, 08:03 AM
A lot of us don't think he completely ****ed this team. Did he do a good enough job? Nope and he's gone as a result. But he got rid of a mediocre QB who wanted stupid money two years out from FA, a WR who apparently can't help but get himself severely lacerated every other off-season, and a FB turned RB who Shanahan didn't want to start, McDaniels didn't want to start, and then even Cleveland didn't want to start until several other guys all got hurt.

Meanwhile he left us with a wealth of draft picks that have been used on high potential players. He didn't coach them for ****, but there is a large stockpile of young talent on this team waiting for John Fox to provide the structure and coaching needed to take this club to the next level.

I'm personally of the opinion that in two or three years we're going to look as stacked as San Diego did in the mid-2000's, assuming just most of the guys can get or stay healthy.

You say that the 2010 team is better off than the 2008 team. Really? Wow.
Under Shanahan, that offense was going to explode. It was young and just starting to really come into its own as a major force.
I don't see how McDaniels left this team with a surge of youth. He hindered us with crappy draft day trades. Demarius Thomas needs to stay on the field, Richard Quinn has sure done a whole lot for us, the young OL need to progress, defensively he provided little youth.
I don't see us getting back to contending unless we hit on our current and future draft picks.
To me, the whole front 7 is highly questionable. Dumervil coming off a season ending injury, Ayers never showing diddly squat, no DT worth starting on our current roster, roster fodders at LB's except for DJ, and then how well will Von Miller play?
The thing people don't understand I guess is McD gutted and retooled the offense, SOMETHING THAT DIDN'T NEED TO BE DONE. He used up a lot of high picks on the freakin offense when we're trotting out crap on defense.

tsiguy96
07-27-2011, 08:05 AM
You say that the 2010 team is better off than the 2008 team. Really? Wow.
Under Shanahan, that offense was going to explode. It was young and just starting to really come into its own as a major force.
I don't see how McDaniels left this team with a surge of youth. He hindered us with crappy draft day trades. Demarius Thomas needs to stay on the field, Richard Quinn has sure done a whole lot for us, the young OL need to progress, defensively he provided little youth.
I don't see us getting back to contending unless we hit on our current and future draft picks.
To me, the whole front 7 is highly questionable. Dumervil coming off a season ending injury, Ayers never showing diddly squat, no DT worth starting on our current roster, roster fodders at LB's except for DJ, and then how well will Von Miller play?
The thing people don't understand I guess is McD gutted and retooled the offense, SOMETHING THAT DIDN'T NEED TO BE DONE. He used up a lot of high picks on the freakin offense when we're trotting out crap on defense.

wow...that must be a new broncos problem, its been pretty solid the last 10 years?

OABB
07-27-2011, 08:07 AM
How does that pwn myself? Someone isn't able to follow a conversation.

You are defending shanny by saying he chose bad coaches. no?

WolfpackGuy
07-27-2011, 08:07 AM
There was very little loss of contributing players from '09 to '10 with McDaniels. Bannan was an upgrade from the '09 roster, we had more CB and WR depth, and we replaced Marshall with Lloyd.

The '09 team went 8-8, just like Shanahan's '08 team. The 2010 team's only real variables for negative change from the '09 squad was the loss of Doom and the replacement/musical chairs of coaches. Yet it dropped 4 games more.

I'd take the 2010 team over the '08 team based on player personnel alone. You add in coaches though and the '08 team obviously wins out.

As for the OP, this is a stacked question. McDaniels has more young players on his roster. A lot of guys who don't pan out here will get second and third chances in the league. Shanahan preferred giving guys their second or third chance. So obviously his washout rate will be higher. Add to that the shortened pre-season, reducing opportunities for new guys to steal jobs from last year's guys, and you've got a very stacked deck in favor of McDaniels.

I agree on the youth point, but Shanahan was already started on that path before he got canned after fielding some of the oldest teams in the league for years. I still disagree the 2010 unit was more talented overall than the 2008 team. You're one of the few who follows football that thinks that.

People keep bringing up Dumervil, but he pretty much disappeared with only 7 of his 17 sacks after the 6-0 start. You can blame that on Nolan's and McClueless' differences, teams pounding the edges in the run game, the offense's inability to sustain drives leaving the defense tired, whatever.

Once teams figured out what McClueless' was doing, it got ugly. 5-12 with 3 (almost 4) separate 4 game losing streaks.

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 08:07 AM
Who hired slowik? who hired nolan? why did you just pwn yourself? Not smart.

Drek's point was about superior coaching elevating the performance of personnel. Jhns' statement about Slowik absolutely applies.

TheChamp24
07-27-2011, 08:08 AM
wow...that must be a new broncos problem, its been pretty solid the last 10 years?

Thats the point. It was a problem McD never really tried to fix other than using the same method Shanahan used. Sign guys in free agency that were backups/spot starters elsewhere, hope they can do well starting.
I mean, remember how we were basically banking on Jamal Williams saving us last year at the NT spot? Yeah.

OABB
07-27-2011, 08:08 AM
Drek's point was about superior coaching elevating the performance of personnel. Jhns' statement about Slowik absolutely applies.

Shanny was never a good defensive coach. If we are comparing teams, dont the coaches chosen enter the debate?

tsiguy96
07-27-2011, 08:09 AM
Thats the point. It was a problem McD never really tried to fix other than using the same method Shanahan used. Sign guys in free agency that were backups/spot starters elsewhere, hope they can do well starting.
I mean, remember how we were basically banking on Jamal Williams saving us last year at the NT spot? Yeah.

yea, exactly. mcd didnt fix it obviously even though he invested resources there, but its been a problem for the last decade, its not like mcd came in and destroyed the defense, of the offense for that matter, based on scoring statistics. the team isnt far off from where they were before mcd, but they have some real high potential guys all over the field now that need to actually step up.

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 08:10 AM
Shanny was never a good defensive coach.

Oh, really?

Got any kind of information to back that up? Because I have 16 years worth to completely refute it.

If we are comparing teams, dont the coaches chosen enter the debate?

We were comparing personnel.

I'm down to compare teams as a whole though.

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 08:11 AM
yea, exactly. mcd didnt fix it obviously even though he invested resources there, but its been a problem for the last decade, its not like mcd came in and destroyed the defense, of the offense for that matter, based on scoring statistics. the team isnt far off from where they were before mcd, but they have some real high potential guys all over the field now that need to actually step up.

It was actually a strength for the better part of a decade (but you weren't watching football then, so it's an easy mistake). It wasn't until towards the end of 2006 that the defense became poor.

Coincidentally that was when Al Wilson's neck broke.

jhns
07-27-2011, 08:11 AM
Shanny was never a good defensive coach. If we are comparing teams, dont the coaches chosen enter the debate?

The argument is about player talent. You are an idiot.

With Slowik, and tons of injuries, the 08 team still outperformed the 10 team. This makes your point even dumber.

Rabb
07-27-2011, 08:12 AM
McD only did more damage to the franchise than anyone could possibly do, squandering draft picks and players along the way. But other than that, he didn't destroy anything.

He is at the top of the die in a fire totem pole in Broncos lore if you ask me

Archer81
07-27-2011, 08:12 AM
Arguing over scrubs...

Oh, you silly Omane.

:Broncos:

TheChamp24
07-27-2011, 08:12 AM
yea, exactly. mcd didnt fix it obviously even though he invested resources there, but its been a problem for the last decade, its not like mcd came in and destroyed the defense, of the offense for that matter, based on scoring statistics.

McD gutted the offense, and used high picks on getting different personal on offense instead of using them on defense.
Moreno, Thomas, R. Quinn, Tebow.
That is something that has pissed me off to no end. We traded guys away for picks, and used the picks to select their replacements.

WolfpackGuy
07-27-2011, 08:14 AM
The bigger question is: When does McClueless take his place on the "worst NFL coaching hires" list?

Funny I saw Hackney's name earlier. I'd take him in a nanosecond over Quinn.

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 08:15 AM
The bigger question is: When does McClueless take his place on the "worst NFL coaching hires" list?

Funny I saw Hackney's name earlier. I'd take him in a nanosecond over Quinn.

As soon as they make one lol

jhns
07-27-2011, 08:16 AM
It was actually a strength for the better part of a decade (but you weren't watching football then, so it's an easy mistake). It wasn't until towards the end of 2006 that the defense became poor.

Coincidentally that was when Al Wilson's neck broke.

This. We never replaced Wilson. Shanahan also made some bad coordinator choices, which no one denies. Sam Brandon also went down around then and we haven't stopped a TE since. The Browncos were also better than they were given credit for and we didn't replace them.

OABB
07-27-2011, 08:17 AM
The argument is about player talent. You are an idiot.

With Slowik, and tons of injuries, the 08 team still outperformed the 10 team. This makes your point even dumber.

I was confused as to the rules of debate. I assumed tgis was a shanny vs. Mcd debate after you insulted mcfans and nolan came up.

Archer81
07-27-2011, 08:17 AM
McD only did more damage to the franchise than anyone could possibly do, squandering draft picks and players along the way. But other than that, he didn't destroy anything.

He is at the top of the bend me over a rock totem pole in Broncos lore if you ask me


The franchise is like one of those ridiculous mansions you see in New Orleans. Over two hundred years old, you can still see how awesome they were back in the day, but its already a building badly in need of being torn down. Rather then demolishing the building one set of owners decided to patch it and throw on a coat of paint year after year. The next set of owners decided to restore the building from the foundation up but forgot to account for natural disasters, a high water table and discounted the advice of more experienced renovators. So the building was reduced to a pile of rubble and wood.

So we are now on the third set of owners. Life goes on.

:Broncos:

WolfpackGuy
07-27-2011, 08:17 AM
This. We never replaced Wilson. Shanahan also made some bad coordinator choices, which no one denies. Sam Brandon also went down around then and we haven't stopped a TE since. The Browncos were also better than they were given credit for and we didn't replace them.

Yeah, thanks to Heinz Field's terrible painted grass.

jhns
07-27-2011, 08:19 AM
McD gutted the offense, and used high picks on getting different personal on offense instead of using them on defense.
Moreno, Thomas, R. Quinn, Tebow.
That is something that has pissed me off to no end. We traded guys away for picks, and used the picks to select their replacements.

Exactly. The defense is still **** and he didn't improve the offense with these moves.

I trust Elway won't be that dumb. Hopefully we can get on the right track. I liked his first draft.

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 08:21 AM
I was confused as to the rules of debate. I assumed tgis was a shanny vs. Mcd debate after you insulted mcfans and nolan came up.

No big deal. But in case you wanted actual information on his defensive history:

Shanahan's average defensive ranking is 11. Here's the best defensive head coaches in the NFL (our modern HoF candidates) and their career defensive rankings. Bill Belicek (NE only) comes in at a respectable 14. Tony Dungy (IND only) ties Bill at a solid 14 (edging him with decimals). Jeff Fischer (over that SAME 14 year span) is on the verge of being below average with 16 (might even be below average if you weight the years he coached pre-expansion). For those that might think this comparison is bull **** or skewed: Bill Cowher, on the other hand, proved to be dynamite with a career average of SIX! Also important to note, his best seasons WERE with Dick Lebeau as well, but still strong even without him, and hiring a HoF DC shouldn't be held against him

(Disclaimer: Compiled at time of his firing)

OABB
07-27-2011, 08:22 AM
It should also be noted that cutler has been replaced by tebow. This alone is worth admiration for mcd. Its why I dont hate him.

OABB
07-27-2011, 08:23 AM
No big deal. But in case you wanted actual information on his defensive history:

Shanahan's average defensive ranking is 11. Here's the best defensive head coaches in the NFL (our modern HoF candidates) and their career defensive rankings. Bill Belicek (NE only) comes in at a respectable 14. Tony Dungy (IND only) ties Bill at a solid 14 (edging him with decimals). Jeff Fischer (over that SAME 14 year span) is on the verge of being below average with 16 (might even be below average if you weight the years he coached pre-expansion). For those that might think this comparison is bull **** or skewed: Bill Cowher, on the other hand, proved to be dynamite with a career average of SIX! Also important to note, his best seasons WERE with Dick Lebeau as well, but still strong even without him, and hiring a HoF DC shouldn't be held against him

(Disclaimer: Compiled at time of his firing)


This is surprising. Nice find. Jhns is still a douche.

ol#7
07-27-2011, 08:24 AM
Not really sure where some of these McD revisionists/apologists keep coming up with this or why they continue to throw this sh#t at the wall but its not sticking. Denver sucking at D is a pretty recent phenomenon. It isnt a decade worth of suckitude as tsiguy alluded to. We had an up and coming team in 2008, Shanny was poised to address the Defense, and istead we made the worst hiring choice in franchise history and retooled the strength of the team while creating a franchise worst defense. How can anyone continue to argue any of these points?

jhns
07-27-2011, 08:26 AM
No big deal. But in case you wanted actual information on his defensive history:

Shanahan's average defensive ranking is 11. Here's the best defensive head coaches in the NFL (our modern HoF candidates) and their career defensive rankings. Bill Belicek (NE only) comes in at a respectable 14. Tony Dungy (IND only) ties Bill at a solid 14 (edging him with decimals). Jeff Fischer (over that SAME 14 year span) is on the verge of being below average with 16 (might even be below average if you weight the years he coached pre-expansion). For those that might think this comparison is bull **** or skewed: Bill Cowher, on the other hand, proved to be dynamite with a career average of SIX! Also important to note, his best seasons WERE with Dick Lebeau as well, but still strong even without him, and hiring a HoF DC shouldn't be held against him

(Disclaimer: Compiled at time of his firing)

Great post. It seems aot of fans are pretty new, or have horrible memories.

OABB
07-27-2011, 08:28 AM
Great post. It seems aot of fans are pretty new, or have horrible memories.

Or remember the second half of seasons and manning led playoff games. Look, there was no bigger shanny fan than me, but his time was up. Sorry.

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 08:30 AM
Also, because it bears being repeated for the sheer ridicule this statement should incur on a daily ****ing basis:

a just good DL will have more of an impact for a defense than a HOF corner ever will.

Drek: I know you're vested in the "We're better off after McD" school of thought after the egg on your face over the past couple years, but this is the kind of mental power that you're arguing along-side...

Just sayin

jhns
07-27-2011, 08:30 AM
Or remember the second half of seasons and manning led playoff games. Look, there was no bigger shanny fan than me, but his time was up. Sorry.

I wasn't aware that I argued he shouldn't have been fired.

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 08:31 AM
Or remember the second half of seasons and manning led playoff games. Look, there was no bigger shanny fan than me, but his time was up. Sorry.

Totally agree. After all, Peyton Manning NEVER passed all over another team.

Also, "second half of seasons" thing is also a myth. Sup.

ol#7
07-27-2011, 08:45 AM
Totally agree. After all, Peyton Manning NEVER passed all over another team.

Also, "second half of seasons" thing is also a myth. Sup.

And what was Shanny's solution to this? To trade Clinton Portis for Champ, leading to our last AFCCG appearance.

After 2005 we had a team that was old on both sides of the ball. Shanny made the choice to retool the offense first thinking that was the way to stay competitive. I think he was right, we were competitive, I just wish he had been given 1 more offseason to address the D. Sorry but we lost a really top flight Offense, had cleared cap space and were in a real position to strike that year, McD wasted all of that and all we have really are question marks.

I can understand thinking Shanny needed to be shown the door, although I think he was following a pretty good plan, but to defend anything that McD came in and did as if we are now better off is simply preposterous.

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 08:50 AM
And what was Shanny's solution to this? To trade Clinton Portis for Champ, leading to our last AFCCG appearance.

After 2005 we had a team that was old on both sides of the ball. Shanny made the choice to retool the offense first thinking that was the way to stay competitive. I think he was right, we were competitive, I just wish he had been given 1 more offseason to address the D. Sorry but we lost a really top flight Offense, had cleared cap space and were in a real position to strike that year, McD wasted all of that and all we have really are question marks.

I can understand thinking Shanny needed to be shown the door, although I think he was following a pretty good plan, but to defend anything that McD came in and did as if we are now better off is simply preposterous.

...And drafted 3 corners. The best one and promising starter 1 was gunned down. The next best is a big $ player for Baltimore (yes, it was a very stupid move dumping him to keep Bly happy). The 3rd was just bad lol.

Agree on the rest. We had the cap room to be aggressive in FA too...

ColoradoDarin
07-27-2011, 08:54 AM
Arguing over scrubs...

Oh, you silly Omane.

:Broncos:

The horse isn't dead, beat it again....


:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 08:55 AM
The horse isn't dead, beat it again....


:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse

Neither is that joke:

:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse :deadhorse

Better tell it again!

ColoradoDarin
07-27-2011, 08:57 AM
Neither is that joke:



Better tell it again!

:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse :deadhorse





















































:deadhorse

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 08:58 AM
Well played. Repped

OABB
07-27-2011, 09:06 AM
Totally agree. After all, Peyton Manning NEVER passed all over another team.

Also, "second half of seasons" thing is also a myth. Sup.

The patriots and chargers seemed to do well against manning in the playoffs. of course those were actual good defenses and not statistically good defenses. I dont remember manning putting a 40 burger on those teams.

Also the second half of seasons our defenses were exposed. I dont care how you paint it. EvERYONE has seen it with their own eyes and thats good enough for me.
its that good old herd mentality that I love. Maybe it was over dramitized(sp?) but.there certainly was a fade.

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 09:10 AM
The patriots and chargers seemed to do well against manning in the playoffs. of course those were actual good defenses and not statistically good defenses. I dont remember manning putting a 40 burger on those teams.

3-4 teams back when the 3-4 was still rare, if you hadn't noticed. The Cowboys (one of the few others) did it too in the regular season to end their undefeated streak.

Also the second half of seasons our defenses were exposed. I dont care how you paint it. EvERYONE has seen it with their own eyes and thats good enough for me.
its that good old herd mentality that I love. Maybe it was over dramitized(sp?) but.there certainly was a fade.

Go ahead and list some examples that show it was even remotely a regularity.

OABB
07-27-2011, 09:15 AM
3-4 teams back when the 3-4 was still rare, if you hadn't noticed. The Cowboys (one of the few others) did it too in the regular season to end their undefeated streak.



Go ahead and list some examples that show it was even remotely a regularity.

Way too lazy to go find examples. Does anyone else want to try? a good place to start would be in the second matchups against division teams methinks. Also, you arguing with the 3-4 is helping my point that good defenses stopped manning. That means ours wasnt. a bad 3-4 defense wont play as well as a good 4-3.

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 09:17 AM
Way too lazy to go find examples. Does anyone else want to try? a good place yo start would be in the second matchups against division teams methinks. Also, you arguing with the 3-4 is helping my point that good defenses stopoed manning. That means ours wasnt. a bad 3-4 defense wont play as well as a good 4-3.

Wtf?

So because one player had problems with a 34 over a 43, that means they're better? Wow this opens the door up to some serious interpretations!

That's almost as good as the "I'm gonna say it, but I don't know of anything to actually back it up with" statement you started your post with!

broncosteven
07-27-2011, 09:20 AM
It should also be noted that cutler has been replaced by tebow. This alone is worth admiration for mcd. Its why I dont hate him.

Every squirl finds a nut.

I have my distain for mCd because he was inexperienced, arrogant beyond his experience, made questionable moves before the 1st TC, said one thing then did another, took a victory lap after only his 5th game (it took John 16 years to get one), couldn't reach his players, gave up on his own hand picked talent, made rash poorly thought out trades (one while his GM was out at lunch), let injuries take him out of his gameplans, underestimated the NFL's abilities to adjust to what he did, admitted that he didn't believe in adjustments(! inexcuseable at that level!), ran off a DC, hired his buddies from Canton High to help him coach at the NFL level, etc...

Am I glad we have Tebow? If he turns out to be a winner and can make it here for 10+ years. Would I rather see a DT drafted in one of the 4 1st round picks mCd had, YES.

Drek
07-27-2011, 09:22 AM
Does Slowik ring a bell? Case closed.

"Optimistic perspective" is defending the guy that tanked the franchise and led them to the worst ever season that this franchise has seen? Weird, I see it as you trying to spin all the crap you threw at the wall over the last two years. I can see why, you constantly typed five page posts defending everything he did. I can't have a real debate when everything you say is a spin of how McDaniels was great and Shanahan was horrible. Take the above post. You act like Shanahan had good coaching all over when one of his units had a far worse coach than anything we had the last two years. Ypu aren't resonable. No McFan is. There is no way to defend him if you are reasonable.

Bob Slowik is objectively a better DC than Wink Martindale.

Slowik was a DC twice before, five years with the Bears and one year with the Packers. He produced better defenses in those stops than Martindale has in his one crack at the position. Its a sad statement but Slowik has proven himself a superior DC to Martindale.

And you miss my point. Shanahan WAS the good coaching. Its his calling card. Gibbs or Dennison, Kubiak or Bates, etc. etc.. Shanahan got the most out of his assistants and the most out of his players.

I no way to I try to portrait Shanahan as being horrible. In fact, just the opposite. He's an all time great coach. He just killed himself on the GM side, most notably by constantly going after overpriced retreads. In the tail end he started to invest in youth and the draft, but for all the championing of the '07 and '09 classes we still have the stinker that was the '08 class, where he burnt through a wealth of picks for three ineffective DLs and an OL who can't stay healthy. Not to mention that the "prize" most trumpet from the '07 class and the linchpin to this supposedly ready to explode offense, Jay Cutler, has shown that his production here was more a product of Mike Shanahan than Jay Cutler.

Sometimes I wonder if all the people hating on McDaniels for trading Cutler forget just what exactly Mike Shanahan got out of Jake Plummer. Or Brian Griese. Or Bubby Brister, Gus Ferrotte, and Steve Burlein in limited samples. Mike Shanahan is the definition of a QB guru. McDaniels didn't trade the next Elway. He more closely traded the next Brian Griese and the last two years in Chicago support that. He did so for a king's ransom. And that ransom has been turned into a lot of young talent on this team with yet another installment coming when we trade Orton.

McDaniels problem in my view wasn't player personnel. It was a distinct inability to be a head coach. He's proven himself as an OC previously, but as the HC he showed absolutely no inability to delegate or to extract maximum production from his assistants. As a result the name coaches with options (Nolan, Dennison, Turner) quickly grew tired of his micromanagement and left and the rest were marginalized.

John Fox has a track record of being far better as a head coach than that. Not Shanahan levels mind you but he also isn't requiring Shanahan levels of front office autonomy. The depth of young talent now on this roster, while unproven, has great promise if utilized well by a good head coach and his well managed staff.

Archer81
07-27-2011, 09:23 AM
And what was Shanny's solution to this? To trade Clinton Portis for Champ, leading to our last AFCCG appearance.

After 2005 we had a team that was old on both sides of the ball. Shanny made the choice to retool the offense first thinking that was the way to stay competitive. I think he was right, we were competitive, I just wish he had been given 1 more offseason to address the D. Sorry but we lost a really top flight Offense, had cleared cap space and were in a real position to strike that year, McD wasted all of that and all we have really are question marks.

I can understand thinking Shanny needed to be shown the door, although I think he was following a pretty good plan, but to defend anything that McD came in and did as if we are now better off is simply preposterous.


Old arguments are old.


:Broncos:

OABB
07-27-2011, 09:23 AM
Wtf?

So because one player had problems with a 34 over a 43, that means they're better? Wow this opens the door up to some serious interpretations!

That's almost as good as the "I'm gonna say it, but I don't know of anything to actually back it up with" statement you started your post with!

Not at all. how did manning do against our 3-4? my point is that a defense is either a) good or b) not. Scheme is not the end all be all. If a pop warner team lined up a 3-4 on manning i bet you he would rock alexander them. Im lazy, not stupid. If you dont think oir teams faded or at the very least were exposed under shanahan in the second half of seasons than nothing I say will change your mind anyways. You obviously dis not see what everyone else did.

41 points is not a good defensive outing rev. You are trying to argue that it is.

This is asinine and shocking frankly.

For.




Ty.




One.




Pah.




Oints.

OABB
07-27-2011, 09:27 AM
Forty one points.....

just in case that was missed. Saying it again. And Im not even getting into the game a year later!

jhns
07-27-2011, 09:30 AM
Wow OABB, you are showing a new level of stupidity in this thread. You can't read, you can't back up amy of your claims, and now Manning didn't just have trouble with the 3-4. Interesting. What else has happened in your two years of watching football?

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 09:31 AM
Not at all. how did manning do against our 3-4? my point is that a defense is either a) goid or b) not. Scheme is not the end all be all. If a pop warner team lined up a 3-4 on manning i bet you he would rock alexander them. Im lazy, not stupid. If you dont think oir teams faded or at the very least were exposed under shanahan in the second half of seasons than nothing I say will change your mind anyways. You obviously dis not see what everyone else did.

41 points is not a goid defensive outing rev. You are trying to argue that it is.

This is asinine and shocking frankly.

For.




Ty.




One.




Pah.




Oints.

Yeah nothing will change my mind because it didn't happen. And because it didn't happen you don't have any examples.

Oh we lost to Manning by a couple large margins. BFD. Get a good cry out of it and join the ****ing club.

We were also the team that stopped Tom Brady's undefeated playoff streak and were 1 piss poor meltdown away from another superbowl ring.

Peyton struggling against the 34 throughout his career is a documented fact.

Here: Google "Peyton manning struggles 3-4" and look at all the examples and articles!

http://www.google.com/search?q=peyton+manning+struggles+3-4&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

(^I did it for you since you're "lazy not stupid")

And here's a pretty decent article about it by ESPN leading up to their matchup vs the Jets (who is a 34 team and which they lost too, fyi)

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/16880/a-look-at-manning-vs-3-4-base-defenses

Oh and as for "how did manning do against our 3-4?"

Well he actually completed less than 50% of his passes and threw 3 picks. That's how well he did.

I appreciate everything you say supporting all my points though. That's very nice of you.

OABB
07-27-2011, 09:32 AM
Wow OABB, you are showing a new level of stupidity in this thread. You can't read, you can't back up amy of your claims, and now Manning didn't just have trouble with the 3-4. Interesting. What else has happened in your two years of watching football?

Not what I said. I said oir defense wasnt good because it gave up forty one points.

Thats called backup. did manning struggke against our 3-4? i know he had a couple turnovers after scoring 21 points to start the game. Is this the back up you requested?

OABB
07-27-2011, 09:35 AM
Yeah nothing will change my mind because it didn't happen. And because it didn't happen you don't have any examples.

Oh we lost to Manning by a couple large margins. BFD. Get a good cry out of it and join the ****ing club.

We were also the team that stopped Tom Brady's undefeated playoff streak and were 1 piss poor meltdown away from another superbowl ring.

Peyton struggling against the 34 throughout his career is a documented fact.

Here: Google "Peyton manning struggles 3-4" and look at all the examples and articles!

http://www.google.com/search?q=peyton+manning+struggles+3-4&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

(^I did it for you since you're "lazy not stupid")

And here's a pretty decent article about it by ESPN leading up to their matchup vs the Jets (who is a 34 team and which they lost too, fyi)

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/16880/a-look-at-manning-vs-3-4-base-defenses

Oh and as for "how did manning do against our 3-4?"

Well he actually completed less than 50% of his passes and threw 3 picks. That's how well he did.

I appreciate everything you say supporting all my points though. That's very nice of you.

Never said he didnt struggle against.the 3-4. what I said was our defense, you know the one thay gave uo FORTY ONE points wasnt very good.

Now that you and jhns have educated me, i feel refreshed. All this time I though forty plis points given up was bad defense. Now I know it was just our scheme!


Awesome! the orange crush is back!

jhns
07-27-2011, 09:36 AM
Not what I said. I said oir defense wasnt good because it gave up forty one points.

Thats called backup. did manning struggke against our 3-4? i know he had a couple turnovers after scoring 21 points to start the game. Is this the back up you requested?

That wasn't what you refused to back up. That is just you being an idiot.

For as ****ty as our defense was, yes he did struggle against that 3-4. Three picks and little production after thr first few series against a defense that made even the worst QBs look good...

OABB
07-27-2011, 09:36 AM
By the way, my droid keyboard.sucks. Not THIS bad of a speller.

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 09:37 AM
Never said he didnt struggle against.the 3-4. what I said was our defense, you know the one thay gave uo FORTY ONE points wasnt very good.

Now that you and jhns have educated me, i feel refreshed. All this time I though forty plis points given up was bad defense. Now I know it was just our scheme!


Awesome! the orange crush is back!

Ummm yes you did. All your posts run counter-intuitive to that point...

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 09:38 AM
By the way, my droid keyboard.sucks. Not THIS bad of a speller.

...You should pretend your droid is auto correcting words and that you're also not this stupid.

OABB
07-27-2011, 09:39 AM
That wasn't what you refused to back up. That is just you being an idiot.

For as ****ty as our defense was, yes he did struggle against that 3-4. Three picks and little production after thr first few series against a defense that made even the worst QBs look good...

I know. I didnt back up the second half fades. I do think FORTY ONE points makes my point though. dont you? or are.you and the rev saying FORTY ONE points was just a scheme issue?

OABB
07-27-2011, 09:40 AM
...You should pretend your droid is auto correcting words and that you're also not this stupid.

Lol. That was funny. I am happy that my droid is abke to capitalize FORTY ONE points though.


That part is cool. Dont you think?

jhns
07-27-2011, 09:42 AM
I know. I didnt back up the second half fades. I do think FORTY ONE points makes my point though. dont you? or are.you and the rev saying FORTY ONE points was just a scheme issue?

No, it was a facing the best QB/offense in the game, while they were in their prime, issue. Again, hardly anyone stopped Manning. Only 3-4 teams could do it consistently. Why do you throw out 16 games worth of data and say one game proves everything? I'll tell you why. It is because you know you have nothing.

OABB
07-27-2011, 09:43 AM
Ummm yes you did. All your posts run counter-intuitive to that point...

Not at all. I clearly made the point with the pop warner reference and the 21 point hole we surrendered. You are.saying any 3-4 will hurt manning, and Im saying thats stupid. What hurts manning is good defenses. What.lets him carve FORTY ONE points up is NOT good defense.


Thats pretty clear, no?

OABB
07-27-2011, 09:45 AM
No, it was a facing the best QB/offense in the game, while they were in their prime, issue. Again, hardly anyone stooped Manning. Only 3-4 teams could do it consistently. Why do you throw out 16 games worth of data and say one game proves everything? I'll tell you why. It is because you know you have nothing.

"Shanny come home! I love you baby! i forgive you...dont ever leave me. Im sorry i cried when you punched me. Im weak. It will never happen again. here Ill hit myself to prove it." smack! Smack! Smack!
"I....LOVE.....YOU!"

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 09:45 AM
I know. I didnt back up the second half fades. I do think FORTY ONE points makes my point though. dont you? or are.you and the rev saying FORTY ONE points was just a scheme issue?

Lol. That was funny. I am happy that my droid is abke to capitalize FORTY ONE points though.


That part is cool. Dont you think?

Two weeks prior Denver held them to 17 in their house on route to securing a play off berth.

One week later Indy scored 38 in another playoff game where they didn't even have to punt.

Then they lost to NE (a 34 team) in a game that forced re-emphasis of the 5 yard defensive rule.

Oh and btw, Denver was a good defense by every statistical measurable that year...

4 overall
9 in points
6 in passing
7 in rushing

Did they have a horrible game against Indy? You bet.

But most do.

WolfpackGuy
07-27-2011, 09:46 AM
The Broncos defense was only as good as its backup CB's back then.

My biggest issue in the playoff losses to IND and PIT was WTF was up with Plummer and the offense!

Get back on topic of how many steps the Broncos took back hiring the idiot...

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 09:46 AM
Not at all. I clearly made the point with the pop warner reference and the 21 point hole we surrendered. You are.saying any 3-4 will hurt manning, and Im saying thats stupid. What hurts manning is good defenses. What.lets him carve FORTY ONE points up is NOT good defense.


Thats pretty clear, no?

No. What's clear is that you're making **** up and clinging to outliers instead of actual supporting evidence.

OABB
07-27-2011, 09:47 AM
Two weeks prior Denver held them to 17 in their house on route to securing a play off berth.

One week later Indy scored 38 in another playoff game where they didn't even half to punt.

Then they lost to NE (a 34 team) in a game that forced re-emphasis of the 5 yard defensive rule.

Oh and btw, Denver was a good defense by every statistical measurable that year...

4 overall
9 in points
6 in passing
7 in rushing

Did they have a horrible game against Indy? You bet.

But most do.


Refresh my memory..was that 17 point hold the game manning didnt even play? awesome example. Really.

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 09:48 AM
Refresh my memory..was that 17 point hold the game manning didnt even play? awesome example. Really.

No. That was the following year.

But it's cute when even your meager outlier examples aren't even true.

"Internet Champion" lol

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2003122111/2003/REG16/broncos@colts

jhns
07-27-2011, 09:53 AM
"Shanny come home! I love you baby! i forgive you...dont ever leave me. Im sorry i cried when you punched me. Im weak. It will never happen again. here Ill hit myself to prove it." smack! Smack! Smack!
"I....LOVE.....YOU!"

One bad game means the defense was horrible! The other 16 prove nothing!

Can't get dumber than that.

CEH
07-27-2011, 09:55 AM
Speaking of scrubs. Which year was it Manning picked Roc Alexander apart. 03 or '04?

Drek
07-27-2011, 09:57 AM
The Broncos defense was only as good as its backup CB's back then.

My biggest issue in the playoff losses to IND and PIT was WTF was up with Plummer and the offense!

Get back on topic of how many steps the Broncos took back hiring the idiot...

Getting back on topic, you can't really quantify how many steps back.

If we had kept Shanahan and found that the '06 and '08 drafts were aberrations where would we be now? A good offense with no defense or special teams? Probably.

Instead we had a guy come in here, make the tough choices from a personnel standpoint, inject a large pool of young talent into the roster, and then get replaced by a superior coach. Depending on what Fox and co. can extract out of Tebow, Decker, Thomas, the young OL, Ayers, Moreno, the safeties, etc. we might just find this to be the quickest rebuilding blueprint possible.

Now obviously its an inferior option to retaining Shanahan as a coach and getting a real checks and balances guy into the FO, but that wasn't going to happen. Hell, it didn't happen in Washington where Shanahan is working with a proven GM in Bruce Allen. When both where hired it was a publicly stated reality that Shanahan had final say of the two.

So what's worse for an organization, never taking a step forward from mediocrity, or taking one step back while preparing the assets and personnel for several steps forward? I'd personally take the later.

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 09:59 AM
Speaking of scrubs. Which year was it Manning picked Roc Alexander apart. 03 or '04?

04. That was the game that spurred the necessity of drafting 3 consecutive corners.

strafen
07-27-2011, 10:03 AM
Swing and a miss.

Of course they didn't. Shanahan was a vastly superior game day coach. But that's not the point of the thread.We're talking Shanny's and McD's scrubs, right?
Why are you spinning it?
Scrubs are scrubs.
Perhaps, Josh failed in evaluating who he could've kept?
That doesn't necessarily make a player a scrub, does it?

CEH
07-27-2011, 10:18 AM
04. That was the game that spurred the necessity of drafting 3 consecutive corners.

Oh the old shotgun approach to drafting

OABB
07-27-2011, 10:19 AM
One bad game means the defense was horrible! The other 16 prove nothing!

Can't get dumber than that.

I put more emphasis on playoff games than regular season games. its kind of like how one defines a qb by how he plays in the playoffs. Its an old school way of thinking. But yeah, if you want to view a forty plus playoff game debacle as ONE game more power to you. good luck with that.

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 10:20 AM
I put more emphasis on playoff games than regular season games. its kind of like how one defines a qb by how he plays in the playoffs. Its an old school way of thinking. But yeah, if you want to view a forty plus playoff game debacle as ONE game more power to you. good luck with that.

Yeah! And if you want to view Benjamin Button as ONE movie, more power to you. Good luck with that.

Just so we're clear... just how many games is one game...?

OABB
07-27-2011, 10:22 AM
No. That was the following year.

But it's cute when even your meager outlier examples aren't even true.

"Internet Champion" lol

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2003122111/2003/REG16/broncos@colts

my mistake. We held manning to 17 points that one time. pur defense really WAS good. The 42 and 38 point debacles.back to back were certainly.the anomoly. Well done. Do you think fox and allen can get us over the hump again?

OABB
07-27-2011, 10:24 AM
Yeah! And if you want to view Benjamin Button as ONE movie, more power to you. Good luck with that.

Just so we're clear... just how many games is one game...?

Its one game. the other one we only gave up 38. so we were watching film and making adjustments obviously.

bendog
07-27-2011, 10:25 AM
large pool of young talent into the roster

dREK, great stuff. roflmao

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 10:28 AM
my mistake. We held manning to 17 points that one time. pur defense really WAS good. The 42 and 38 point debacles.back to back were certainly.the anomoly. Well done. Do you think fox and allen can get us over the hump again?

Peyton scored 38 to beat the Pats in the AFCCG a few years ago.

Their defense must have SUCKED!

And they scored 29 against the Bears!

Their defense must've sucked too (and not dragged them to the SB)

Mediator12
07-27-2011, 10:28 AM
my mistake. We held manning to 17 points that one time. pur defense really WAS good. The 42 and 38 point debacles.back to back were certainly.the anomoly. Well done. Do you think fox and allen can get us over the hump again?

What the hell is wrong with you people? INDY was a nightmare Matchup for DEN as they had a terrible pass rush against Manning in the colts Dome those 2 years and started backups against REGGIE WAYNE. INDY matched up with DEN's defense way better in those 2 games and they still had a Running game with James unlike the last 2 years when they went 31st in rushing yards as an offense.

Those defenses were good enough to get the Broncos into the playoffs and if the offense clicked to the SB. However, the offenses seriously underperformed in the playoffs too. And by underperformed, read never showed up in the first half of those games until it was all over.

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 10:28 AM
Its one game. the other one we only gave up 38. so we were watching film and making adjustments obviously.

Wtf are you talking about? Can you read?

OABB
07-27-2011, 10:30 AM
What the hell is wrong with you people? INDY was a nightmare Matchup for DEN as they had a terrible pass rush against Manning in the colts Dome those 2 years and started backups against REGGIE WAYNE. INDY matched up with DEN's defense way better in those 2 games and they still had a Running game with James unlike the last 2 years when they went 31st in rushing yards as an offense.

Those defenses were good enough to get the Broncos into the playoffs and if the offense clicked to the SB. However, the offenses seriously underperformed in the playoffs too. And by underperformed, read never showed up in the first half of those games until it was all over.

Lack of pass rush? why is that again? thats scheme right?

OABB
07-27-2011, 10:31 AM
Wtf are you talking about? Can you read?

Yes. You asked how many games is one game? The answer is one game.no?

Mediator12
07-27-2011, 10:32 AM
Lack of pass rush? why is that again? thats scheme right?

NO. It's players who can execute a scheme. In case you have not noticed, pass rushers get paid HUGE amounts of money.

Oh, and DEN's only real Pass rusher Trevor Pryce did not play in one of those Blowout games either.

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 10:39 AM
Yes. You asked how many games is one game? The answer is one game.no?

You have somehow raised the stupid standard BroncoMan set earlier in this thread. I can't express how disappointed I am.

It would be swell if you could find a way to make even a solitary point in this thread to save some face.

OABB
07-27-2011, 10:43 AM
NO. It's players who can execute a scheme. In case you have not noticed, pass rushers get paid HUGE amounts of money.

Oh, and DEN's only real Pass rusher Trevor Pryce did not play in one of those Blowout games either.

I agree completely. its just that where I come from is bad matchups, lack of pass rush and giving up alot of points is a sign of a defense that isnt very good. We werent terrible, we just werent very good.

Lets put it this way. If a team gave an average of 39 points in two straight playoff games, would you say they were a) good or b) not good?

Rock Chalk
07-27-2011, 10:44 AM
No big deal. But in case you wanted actual information on his defensive history:

Shanahan's average defensive ranking is 11. Here's the best defensive head coaches in the NFL (our modern HoF candidates) and their career defensive rankings. Bill Belicek (NE only) comes in at a respectable 14. Tony Dungy (IND only) ties Bill at a solid 14 (edging him with decimals). Jeff Fischer (over that SAME 14 year span) is on the verge of being below average with 16 (might even be below average if you weight the years he coached pre-expansion). For those that might think this comparison is bull **** or skewed: Bill Cowher, on the other hand, proved to be dynamite with a career average of SIX! Also important to note, his best seasons WERE with Dick Lebeau as well, but still strong even without him, and hiring a HoF DC shouldn't be held against him

(Disclaimer: Compiled at time of his firing)

Whats this based on? Yardage?

I doubt it's based on points allowed.

Rock Chalk
07-27-2011, 10:49 AM
What the hell is wrong with you people? INDY was a nightmare Matchup for DEN as they had a terrible pass rush against Manning in the colts Dome those 2 years and started backups against REGGIE WAYNE. INDY matched up with DEN's defense way better in those 2 games and they still had a Running game with James unlike the last 2 years when they went 31st in rushing yards as an offense.

Those defenses were good enough to get the Broncos into the playoffs and if the offense clicked to the SB. However, the offenses seriously underperformed in the playoffs too. And by underperformed, read never showed up in the first half of those games until it was all over.

One moment.

2 weeks prior to one of those blowouts, the same two teams faced off against each other on the same field and Denver pretty much manhandled those colts.

I cant remember what happened if there were some major injuries but there was no defensive nightmare matchup for Denver. They had already proven they COULD beat the Colts.

I remember Al Wilson in that first game completely owning Manning in the on field calls and then I remember Reggie Wayne (Maybe it was Marvin Harrison) in the second game falling down after a catch, no one touching him and then getting up and waltzing to the end zone.

I also remember Plummer starting badly in the first game but the team came up, played some defense, and the offense got on track. IN the second game, the defense failed to show up at all. Plummer and the offense had no chance in a track meet with Indy.

THe second matchup the next year, yes, that was a horrendous matchup nightmare but dont give me that **** we couldnt beat the colts that first time because we ALREADY DID IT THAT YEAR ON THEIR FIELD.

TheReverend
07-27-2011, 10:50 AM
Whats this based on? Yardage?

I doubt it's based on points allowed.

Yardage, yeah. Feel free to compile one based on points.

ColoradoDarin
07-27-2011, 10:53 AM
I agree completely. its just that where I come from is bad matchups, lack of pass rush and giving up alot of points is a sign of a defense that isnt very good. We werent terrible, we just werent very good.

Lets put it this way. If a team gave an average of 39 points in two straight playoff games, would you say they were a) good or b) not good?

I would say that 2 games is too small of a sample size to be statistically significant.

What were the offensive stats in those 2 games? When were Int's thrown? Too many variables to break it down simply like that.

snowspot66
07-27-2011, 11:04 AM
We're talking Shanny's and McD's scrubs, right?
Why are you spinning it?
Scrubs are scrubs.
Perhaps, Josh failed in evaluating who he could've kept?
That doesn't necessarily make a player a scrub, does it?

The POINT was how many of Shanahans scrubs are no longer in the league. Not who gave up more points in one game.

Mediator12
07-27-2011, 11:06 AM
One moment.

2 weeks prior to one of those blowouts, the same two teams faced off against each other on the same field and Denver pretty much manhandled those colts.

I cant remember what happened if there were some major injuries but there was no defensive nightmare matchup for Denver. They had already proven they COULD beat the Colts.

I remember Al Wilson in that first game completely owning Manning in the on field calls and then I remember Reggie Wayne (Maybe it was Marvin Harrison) in the second game falling down after a catch, no one touching him and then getting up and waltzing to the end zone.

I also remember Plummer starting badly in the first game but the team came up, played some defense, and the offense got on track. IN the second game, the defense failed to show up at all. Plummer and the offense had no chance in a track meet with Indy.

THe second matchup the next year, yes, that was a horrendous matchup nightmare but dont give me that **** we couldnt beat the colts that first time because we ALREADY DID IT THAT YEAR ON THEIR FIELD.

INDY had already wrapped up their playoff spot in the first DEN game and did not play to win, like they could have. Also, Quintin Griffin tore the INDY defense to shreds and INDY only had the ball for like 20 minutes the whole game. DEN actually was fighting for their Playoff life, while INDY was already secure. So, get the context right.

The second game DEN lost 2 safety's before the playoff matchup and the DL was injured pretty badly. Deltha had one of his nightmare games, and the defense got pummeled with the real Colts coming to play. James, who was non-factor in the first game, played great and kept picking up solid gains on first down to let peyton run/pass on second down all game long. The DL played as bad as they did well the first matchup.

So, before having selective memory, try getting the context right.

WolfpackGuy
07-27-2011, 11:12 AM
Instead we had a guy come in here, make the tough choices from a personnel standpoint, inject a large pool of young talent into the roster, and then get replaced by a superior coach. Depending on what Fox and co. can extract out of Tebow, Decker, Thomas, the young OL, Ayers, Moreno, the safeties, etc. we might just find this to be the quickest rebuilding blueprint possible.


The only reason it was tough is because he MADE it tough.

Outside of the oft injured and "wandering hands" Thomas, none of those names mentioned give me a warm and fuzzy.

I'm sure it was Bowlen's intent all along for some nitwit to come in, blow the team up, get the fanbase in an uproar, fire said nitwit for cheating, and then bring in a new regime to clean up the mess.

jhns
07-27-2011, 11:26 AM
I don't think there is a face palm picture big enough for this thread.

Drek
07-27-2011, 11:42 AM
The only reason it was tough is because he MADE it tough.

Outside of the oft injured and "wandering hands" Thomas, none of those names mentioned give me a warm and fuzzy.

I'm sure it was Bowlen's intent all along for some nitwit to come in, blow the team up, get the fanbase in an uproar, fire said nitwit for cheating, and then bring in a new regime to clean up the mess.

I doubt Bowlen has had a football related plan since about five minutes after he hired Shanahan.

Jettisoning a mediocre QB that the fans had glommed onto because he throws hard and he was taken in the first round was a bad PR move but the value we got in return was exceptional. Marshall is a ticking timebomb off the field and got a massive new deal the past off-season. Not necessarily a popular move trading him, but it protects the franchise long term. McDaniels made the unpopular but long term safe moves there.


Beyond that the argument devolves into opinion. I personally think Tim Tebow is going to be the second best QB this franchise has ever had. Moreno has been more productive than any other RB in McDaniels' offense, including Corey Dillon who went from pro-bowl levels of production to less than 1K the first year McDaniels took over the offense in New England. I view Moreno as a guy poised to break out with our new offensive mindset. We replaced old OLs near the end (Wiegman and Ham bone) with young high pedigree guys who started to mature last year and could take a big step forward this year with superior coaching. I could go on.

In short, I'm optimistic about the young core we have now being paired up with better positional coaching and organizational philosophy thanks to a real quality HC being back in charge, yet this one doesn't need unilateral authority on player personnel.

OABB
07-27-2011, 12:09 PM
I would say that 2 games is too small of a sample size to be statistically significant.

What were the offensive stats in those 2 games? When were Int's thrown? Too many variables to break it down simply like that.

Fair enough.

jhns
07-27-2011, 12:16 PM
I doubt Bowlen has had a football related plan since about five minutes after he hired Shanahan.

Jettisoning a mediocre QB that the fans had glommed onto because he throws hard and he was taken in the first round was a bad PR move but the value we got in return was exceptional. Marshall is a ticking timebomb off the field and got a massive new deal the past off-season. Not necessarily a popular move trading him, but it protects the franchise long term. McDaniels made the unpopular but long term safe moves there.


Beyond that the argument devolves into opinion.

Everything you said before that last line was an opinion...

broncosteven
07-27-2011, 12:41 PM
INDY had already wrapped up their playoff spot in the first DEN game and did not play to win, like they could have. Also, Quintin Griffin tore the INDY defense to shreds and INDY only had the ball for like 20 minutes the whole game. DEN actually was fighting for their Playoff life, while INDY was already secure. So, get the context right.

The second game DEN lost 2 safety's before the playoff matchup and the DL was injured pretty badly. Deltha had one of his nightmare games, and the defense got pummeled with the real Colts coming to play. James, who was non-factor in the first game, played great and kept picking up solid gains on first down to let peyton run/pass on second down all game long. The DL played as bad as they did well the first matchup.

So, before having selective memory, try getting the context right.

Med is right, I was at the regular season game where Q had his career game. You could tell Denver was desperate and Indy was only 1/2 interested.

You could compare that scenario to the 98 season where Shanny felt out Miami during the late regular season so he could tear them apart in the playoffs.