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Kaylore
07-22-2011, 09:54 AM
An explosion has damaged government buildings in Oslo with injuries reported. The cause of the blast has yet to be ascertained.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/jul/22/oslo-explosion-live-coverage

There has been one or several powerful explosions in the government district in Oslo. So far, police cannot say anything about the scope of the damage, aside from that there's been one or several explosions.
A man disguised as a police officer began shooting where youth were attending a Labour party conference at Utoya, Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg has just confirmed.

He said there is a 'critical and serious situation' but he is safe.

He was speaking on the phone to Norwegian TV station TV2.

TheReverend
07-22-2011, 09:59 AM
Enough is enough.

SonOfLe-loLang
07-22-2011, 10:00 AM
Sad.

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 10:02 AM
It's a sad world when I instantly think I know where blame should fall.

Kaylore
07-22-2011, 10:03 AM
It's a sad world when I instantly think I know where blame should fall.

I tried pretty hard to keep my post as generic as possible. However I think we all assumed the same thing.

Kaylore
07-22-2011, 10:07 AM
http://a.abcnews.com/images/Blotter/ap_oslo_explosion_1_jrs_110722_wg.jpg

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/54221000/jpg/_54221888_oslo_blast_464map.jpg

http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/nbqKG8i7jyoOtkrqcv5_6Q--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD02MTI7cT04NTt3PTUxMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/327f4a3b590eaf10f30e6a70670061f9.jpg

TheReverend
07-22-2011, 10:10 AM
In b4 "False Flag" claims to get the mighty Norway on our side that will make me rage more than I already am

alkemical
07-22-2011, 10:11 AM
Who's pissed at Norway?

RMT
07-22-2011, 10:14 AM
Who's pissed at Norway?

Take a guess ...

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 10:15 AM
Who's pissed at Norway?

That was my thoughts. I don't know about the country but believe they're heavily socialist with not much of an international presence. What could the issues really be?

alkemical
07-22-2011, 10:19 AM
Take a guess ...

That was my thoughts. I don't know about the country but believe they're heavily socialist with not much of an international presence. What could the issues really be?


Polar bears, penguins...????

i honestly don't know.

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 10:20 AM
Polar bears, penguins...????

i honestly don't know.

LOL

When power goes to your head, it doesn't necessarily need a good reason to make someone snap.

TheReverend
07-22-2011, 10:23 AM
From Reuters so we don't have to be "racist" to come out and say it:

http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/norway-attack-likely-suspected-groups/

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 10:27 AM
From Reuters so we don't have to be "racist" to come out and say it:

http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/norway-attack-likely-suspected-groups/

Kinda lazy on their part. Surely, there's SOME homegrown group that could be responsible as well.

I mean, odds are definitely in favor of one of those they mentioned but laziness is present as well.

bronco militia
07-22-2011, 10:29 AM
Who's pissed at Norway?


The blast comes as Norway grapples with a homegrown terror plot linked to Al Qaeda. Two suspects are in jail awaiting charges.

Last week, a Norwegian prosecutor filed terror charges against an Iraqi-born cleric for threatening Norwegian politicians with death if he is deported from the Scandinavian country. The indictment centered on statements that Mullah Krekar -- the founder of the Kurdish Islamist group Ansar al-Islam -- made to various news media, including American network NBC.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/07/22/explosion-damages-buildings-in-norwegian-capital/#ixzz1Sr9UN682

El Guapo
07-22-2011, 10:30 AM
I guess I missed the thread(s) where it's "racist" to assume some muslim extremist group did this. GTFO here with your political correctness. History repeats itself and facts are facts, therefor I would be quick to assume the aforementioned are to blame. I don't care if it's al-shabbi-wabbi-boom-bing or al-queef. It's like trying to make apple pie out of a sack of oranges.

Sorry, that crap just pisses me off (as well as this terrorist act).

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 10:30 AM
The blast comes as Norway grapples with a homegrown terror plot linked to Al Qaeda. Two suspects are in jail awaiting charges.

Last week, a Norwegian prosecutor filed terror charges against an Iraqi-born cleric for threatening Norwegian politicians with death if he is deported from the Scandinavian country. The indictment centered on statements that Mullah Krekar -- the founder of the Kurdish Islamist group Ansar al-Islam -- made to various news media, including American network NBC.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/07/22/explosion-damages-buildings-in-norwegian-capital/#ixzz1Sr9UN682

Thanks. Sounds about accurate.

TheReverend
07-22-2011, 10:31 AM
Kinda lazy on their part. Surely, there's SOME homegrown group that could be responsible as well.

I mean, odds are definitely in favor of one of those they mentioned but laziness is present as well.

Yeah, sure. Casey Anthony COULD be innocent too. And the #1 NBA draft pick could be white. And a Dominican could be bad at baseball.

Bottom line: The world is WAY too sensitive and if we need to hurt to start hurting some ****ing feelings to get the job done, so be it, imo.

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 10:34 AM
I guess I missed the thread(s) where it's "racist" to assume some muslim extremist group did this. GTFO here with your political correctness. History repeats itself and facts are facts, therefor I would be quick to assume the aforementioned are to blame. I don't care if it's al-shabbi-wabbi-boom-bing or al-queef. It's like trying to make apple pie out of a sack of oranges.

Sorry, that crap just pisses me off (as well as this terrorist act).

I think we all assumed it. I was just saying it's sad because it's become so commonplace that terrorism is almost synonymous with Islamic Extremist.

Beyond that, until we get the facts, why give the "You're all racist!" crowd any extra ammo? No point in turning this into another "It's an isolated group of people not representative of the larger majority" or "Don't you remember when Christians were killing everyone in the Crusades?" discussion.

bronco militia
07-22-2011, 10:36 AM
or "Don't you remember when Christians were killing everyone in the Crusades?" discussion.


yeah, the 'we had it coming' threads

::)

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 10:37 AM
Yeah, sure. Casey Anthony COULD be innocent too. And the #1 NBA draft pick could be white. And a Dominican could be bad at baseball.

Bottom line: The world is WAY too sensitive and if we need to hurt to start hurting some ****ing feelings to get the job done, so be it, imo.

Yeah, just saying the article pretty much took our laymen assumptions, added terror group names, and published it. Nobody laying odds on the situation would doubt that the Islamic extremists are the most likely culprits but there is always the faint chance.

alkemical
07-22-2011, 10:38 AM
Yeah, just saying the article pretty much took our laymen assumptions, added terror group names, and published it. Nobody laying odds on the situation would doubt that the Islamic extremists are the most likely culprits but there is always the faint chance.

So it wasn't a white jewish mexican?

alkemical
07-22-2011, 10:38 AM
All kidding aside, this is terrible. :(

bronco militia
07-22-2011, 10:40 AM
So it wasn't a white jewish mexican?

they're called hispanics...

:welcome:

Garcia Bronco
07-22-2011, 10:40 AM
Who's pissed at Norway?

You can't stop crazy

bronco militia
07-22-2011, 10:41 AM
All kidding aside, this is terrible. :(

yeah.......having only 2 dead seems like miracle from the looks of the damage

TheReverend
07-22-2011, 10:41 AM
Yeah, just saying the article pretty much took our laymen assumptions, added terror group names, and published it. Nobody laying odds on the situation would doubt that the Islamic extremists are the most likely culprits but there is always the faint chance.

"NATO member Norway has been the target of threats, if not bombs, before, notably over its involvement in conflicts in Afghanistan and Libya. Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg was safe, NTB said. "

Far from air tight, but not quite the racial libel you're accusing it of.

TheReverend
07-22-2011, 10:41 AM
yeah.......having only 2 dead seems like miracle from the looks of the damage

Let's hope it STAYS at 2. These events have a habit of having rising body counts.

bronco militia
07-22-2011, 10:42 AM
Let's hope it STAYS at 2. These events have a habit of having rising body counts.

yeah, I know...(crossing fingers)

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 10:42 AM
All kidding aside, this is terrible. :(

You know... it is definitely terrible but at the same time, I think back to all the criticisms the US has gotten from Europe in general over the last 10 years.

We might've fought the wars incompetently and we've made mistakes in general but at least we tried. Those who put their head in the sand, those who thought that if we just didn't provoke them then we'd be ok, etc... well, they can look at France, Norway, etc. and see that the problem isn't just going away if we let them be and stop acting like the big bad bully on the block.

alkemical
07-22-2011, 10:43 AM
they're called hispanics...

:welcome:

ha...

alkemical
07-22-2011, 10:44 AM
yeah.......having only 2 dead seems like miracle from the looks of the damage

No doubt, i'm looking @ pics... terrible - if it's ONLY 2...that'd be amazing considering how bad the pics look.

Houshyamama
07-22-2011, 10:44 AM
http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/iwsj7/huge_explosion_in_downtown_oslo/

Houshyamama
07-22-2011, 10:46 AM
The A-rabs are like the ADHD/Bi-Polar out-of-control kid in every elementary class. As soon as something goes wrong everybody turns and looks at him.

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 10:46 AM
"NATO member Norway has been the target of threats, if not bombs, before, notably over its involvement in conflicts in Afghanistan and Libya. Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg was safe, NTB said. "

Far from air tight, but not quite the racial libel you're accusing it of.

Don't mean it that way at all. No point in defending it anymore at this point though. They were right by not mentioning homegrown radicals I guess so they win.

TheReverend
07-22-2011, 10:46 AM
it isn't being PC to consider they might be other ****ing lunatics in the world. And there were also shootings. I seem to recall that in America we get drive bys, high school ****ups going and killing people and I don't believe Oklahama City was bombed by Muslims.

However having said that, reports are already indicating ties across the board to Islamic extremists who picked Norway because they do have some troops in Afghanistan and other places and because Norway is a softer target than England or the US. But the fact is, psychos are psychos, these ones just use bull**** religious doctrine to explain their malfunctions.

lol Good one Miss I. That was hilarious.

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 10:47 AM
The A-rabs are like the ADHD/Bi-Polar out-of-control kid in every elementary class. As soon as something goes wrong everybody turns and looks at him.

LOL

Nice.

TheReverend
07-22-2011, 10:48 AM
The A-rabs are like the ADHD/Bi-Polar out-of-control kid in every elementary class. As soon as something goes wrong everybody turns and looks at him.

http://www.thesmogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/gilly-christmas.jpg

Garcia Bronco
07-22-2011, 10:49 AM
God Bless the people directly hurt by the terrible act.

alkemical
07-22-2011, 10:50 AM
there is also a shooting story coming out of Norway: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14254705

7 dead in bombing:
At least seven people are believed to have been killed in the bombing and several injured, in the deadliest attack in Norway since World War II.

I saw this too - coordinated attacks?

WolfpackGuy
07-22-2011, 10:51 AM
Isn't there something we can get them to kill each other for like drugs or sneakers?

SonOfLe-loLang
07-22-2011, 10:51 AM
That was my thoughts. I don't know about the country but believe they're heavily socialist with not much of an international presence. What could the issues really be?

They have troops in Af. not many, but some. Picking on Norway is like the huge bully picking on the little geeky kid

Houshyamama
07-22-2011, 10:56 AM
http://img345.imageshack.us/img345/619/vityaz7xk.jpg



VS.



http://restoretherepublic.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Nasheed-585_642680a1.jpg

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
FIGHT!

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 10:58 AM
http://img345.imageshack.us/img345/619/vityaz7xk.jpg



Completely not the point but what an awesome picture.

DomCasual
07-22-2011, 10:58 AM
I guess I missed the thread(s) where it's "racist" to assume some muslim extremist group did this. GTFO here with your political correctness. History repeats itself and facts are facts, therefor I would be quick to assume the aforementioned are to blame. I don't care if it's al-shabbi-wabbi-boom-bing or al-queef. It's like trying to make apple pie out of a sack of oranges.

Sorry, that crap just pisses me off (as well as this terrorist act).

Yeah, if you want to stop getting blamed for doing crap, then stop doing crap.

mkporter
07-22-2011, 11:05 AM
They have troops in Af. not many, but some. Picking on Norway is like the huge bully picking on the little geeky kid

Norway might be a geeky kid, but radical islamists (or any other radical groups for that matter) are nothing even remotely close to a huge bully. They are more like the outcast loser who loses his f'ing mind then cowardly shoots up a school.

Garcia Bronco
07-22-2011, 11:06 AM
I don't know the percentage, but a large majority of any major terrorist attack I've ever heard of my life time are committed by Arab Muslims.

bronco militia
07-22-2011, 11:07 AM
Oslo explosion: live coverage
Live coverage of events after a huge explosion in Oslo, Norway leaves seven dead, before a gunman opens fire at a youth camp west of Oslo.



18.03 Will McCants now says that Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami (Helpers of Global Jihad) seem to make a claim of responsibility. They claim it is in response to the occupation of Afghanistan and insults to the Prophet Mohammed. It has come via Shmukh, an elite jihadi forum

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8655175/Oslo-explosion-live-coverage.html

Houshyamama
07-22-2011, 11:07 AM
I don't know the percentage, but a large majority of any major terrorist attack I've ever heard of my life time are committed by Arab Muslims.

71.8%

bronco militia
07-22-2011, 11:07 AM
http://twitter.com/#!/will_mccants

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 11:08 AM
I don't know the percentage, but a large majority of any major terrorist attack I've ever heard of my life time are committed by Arab Muslims.

Not necessarily Arab, I don't believe.

They've started incorporating African Muslims here recently. Asian ones as well in the Bali bombings and whatnot.

TheReverend
07-22-2011, 11:09 AM
Oslo explosion: live coverage
Live coverage of events after a huge explosion in Oslo, Norway leaves seven dead, before a gunman opens fire at a youth camp west of Oslo.



18.03 Will McCants now says that Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami (Helpers of Global Jihad) seem to make a claim of responsibility. They claim it is in response to the occupation of Afghanistan and insults to the Prophet Mohammed. It has come via Shmukh, an elite jihadi forum

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8655175/Oslo-explosion-live-coverage.html

Who could've seen that coming....

Glad these guys have the balls to shoot at young children.

Are these guys going to keep pushing the Western world until Internment camps become a reality again?

Houshyamama
07-22-2011, 11:10 AM
Oslo explosion: live coverage
Live coverage of events after a huge explosion in Oslo, Norway leaves seven dead, before a gunman opens fire at a youth camp west of Oslo.



18.03 Will McCants now says that Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami (Helpers of Global Jihad) seem to make a claim of responsibility. They claim it is in response to the occupation of Afghanistan and insults to the Prophet Mohammed. It has come via Shmukh, an elite jihadi forum

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8655175/Oslo-explosion-live-coverage.html

This part doesn't make sense to me. It's just a strange combination of events. Why would a Islamist group attack a youth camp? I'm not saying it's something they wouldn't do, but why would they? Why alert the country by bombing it's prime minister then attack some kids out on an island. There is a possibility of political motivation behind this attack since the kids were there at a youth camp for the Labour party. There is a definite possibility this attack came from within.

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 11:11 AM
Who could've seen that coming....

Glad these guys have the balls to shoot at young children.

Are these guys going to keep pushing the Western world until Internment camps become a reality again?

At some point, we really will have another World War. The political lines in the sand are still being drawn but the people know who they want to stand with. When it finally happens, it'll be so ruthless that I don't even want to fathom it.

bronco militia
07-22-2011, 11:12 AM
this guy is translating a muslim extremest web forum and posting them on his twitter feed.....

ant1999e
07-22-2011, 11:13 AM
I don't know the percentage, but a large majority of any major terrorist attack I've ever heard of my life time are committed by Arab Muslims.

But but but, what about Oklahoma city?:P

TheReverend
07-22-2011, 11:13 AM
At some point, we really will have another World War. The political lines in the sand are still being drawn but the people know who they want to stand with. When it finally happens, it'll be so ruthless that I don't even want to fathom it.

Because of some broke ass people with AK's and mortars?

Not likely.

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 11:14 AM
This part doesn't make sense to me. It's just a strange combination of events. Why would a Islamist group attack a youth camp? I'm not saying it's something they wouldn't do, but why would they? Why alert the country by bombing it's prime minister then attack some kids out on an island. There is a possibility of political motivation behind this attack since the kids were there at a youth camp for the Labour party. There is a definite possibility this attack came from within.

Terrorist attacks work off publicity. Publicity equates to fear which equates to a successful attack. If something got botched and there was nothing available but a group of children, it still fits their agenda. The kids might not've been the original target but the shooter wasn't above using them for his means either.

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 11:15 AM
Because of some broke ass people with AK's and mortars?

Not likely.

It's more institutionalized than just a few crazies with AKs and mortars.

DomCasual
07-22-2011, 11:17 AM
This part doesn't make sense to me. It's just a strange combination of events. Why would a Islamist group attack a youth camp? I'm not saying it's something they wouldn't do, but why would they? Why alert the country by bombing it's prime minister then attack some kids out on an island. There is a possibility of political motivation behind this attack since the kids were there at a youth camp for the Labour party. There is a definite possibility this attack came from within.

What I remember is 9/11. When the first attack hit, I was shocked. When the second attack hit, I still naively thought it might be a coincidence. When the third one hit, I hat a full-on sick stomach. When word of the fourth plane crash hit, I was scared to death.

I think they might have learned, by chance, with 9/11 that if they stagger things a little, it makes people feel more vulnerable.

SonOfLe-loLang
07-22-2011, 11:17 AM
At some point, we really will have another World War. The political lines in the sand are still being drawn but the people know who they want to stand with. When it finally happens, it'll be so ruthless that I don't even want to fathom it.

And who would this world war be between? A terrorist group?

TheReverend
07-22-2011, 11:17 AM
It's more institutionalized than just a few crazies with AKs and mortars.

You're right. They're also backed by a few third world nations with the equivalent of Canada's fire power.

Your claim is completely absurd.

Pakistan? Iran?

Call me when chunks of the EU and Russia and China go fundamental Islam

Houshyamama
07-22-2011, 11:18 AM
Terrorist attacks work off publicity. Publicity equates to fear which equates to a successful attack. If something got botched and there was nothing available but a group of children, it still fits their agenda. The kids might not've been the original target but the shooter wasn't above using them for his means either.

But out on an island? It is not a convenient target. Again I am not saying it's something against their "principles", but that it just doesn't fit the profile of a terrorist attack to me (the youth camp shooting incident). My guess is that the two are either unrelated, or that the whole attack was from within. Just a hunch.

Houshyamama
07-22-2011, 11:18 AM
What I remember is 9/11. When the first attack hit, I was shocked. When the second attack hit, I still naively thought it might be a coincidence. When the third one hit, I hat a full-on sick stomach. When word of the fourth plane crash hit, I was scared to death.

I think they might have learned, by chance, with 9/11 that if they stagger things a little, it makes people feel more vulnerable.

Yeah, I see your point. Still...

who knows though, I guess we'll see.

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 11:35 AM
But out on an island? It is not a convenient target. Again I am not saying it's something against their "principles", but that it just doesn't fit the profile of a terrorist attack to me (the youth camp shooting incident). My guess is that the two are either unrelated, or that the whole attack was from within. Just a hunch.

Well I was thinking more along the lines of the intended target was for someone from the party, party workers at the camp, etc. and something got botched in targeting them so they just started shooting what they could.

The target isn't necessarily convenient in location but was obviously intentionally targeted for its sentiment. The children, on the other hand, when all fell through were the convenient target.

Houshyamama
07-22-2011, 11:38 AM
Well I was thinking more along the lines of the intended target was for someone from the party, party workers at the camp, etc. and something got botched in targeting them so they just started shooting what they could.

The target isn't necessarily convenient in location but was obviously intentionally targeted for its sentiment. The children, on the other hand, when all fell through were the convenient target.

That's definitely possible. There's a lot of unanswered questions right now, tough to tell what actually happened.

epicSocialism4tw
07-22-2011, 11:42 AM
It's a sad world when I instantly think I know where blame should fall.

It was obviously white christian elderly men from the southern united states.

enjolras
07-22-2011, 11:44 AM
You're right. They're also backed by a few third world nations with the equivalent of Canada's fire power.

Your claim is completely absurd.

Pakistan? Iran?

Call me when chunks of the EU and Russia and China go fundamental Islam

Pakistan is a nuclear nation (and Iran may very well be at this point). I wouldn't dismiss their capacity at all.

SonOfLe-loLang
07-22-2011, 11:46 AM
Pakistan is a nuclear nation (and Iran may very well be at this point). I wouldn't dismiss their capacity at all.

I wouldnt dismiss their capacity to do damage, but it doesnt exactly behoove them to start a war. I'm not sure the benefit of a World War in general. Economies/societies are way too interconnected now, a far cry from 1940's

TheReverend
07-22-2011, 11:46 AM
Pakistan is a nuclear nation (and Iran may very well be at this point). I wouldn't dismiss their capacity at all.

1. Being nuclear and being able to deliver it on the other side of the planet are two different things.

2. We could destroy both places before they even knew (ref: Pakistani jets unable to intercept our helo LEAVING Pakistan after Bin Laden)

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 11:51 AM
And who would this world war be between? A terrorist group?

Currently you have the greater Christian world and you have the Muslim world. Muslim countries might have problems with each other (even up to the radical differences between Sunni and Shia) but much like Americans fought amongst ourselves and pulled together after 9/11, I think they too can be pulled together if it becomes a true "Us Vs them" thing.

So, you have heavily religious and fundamental governments, you have heavily religious and fundamental people, you have hate against Christians, you have hate against Americans in general for interventions outside what should be our relative sphere of influence, and you have the general religious tensions that arise after each of these attacks. These are all things that will very much split groups of people along ideological lines. We're not talking us teaming up with the evil communists Russia for the sake of defeating Hitler, we're talking great regions who could legitimately ally along the lines of the US and Great Briton. That divide will be great and VERY divisive.

All you need then is a fault down the middle. Terrorist attacks wont stop; there's no way to eradicate all terrorists. Eventually one succeeds well enough that someone feels the need to retaliate the way we did after 9/11 and the dominoes begin to fall.

Remember, it just took the killing of Franz Ferdinand to start a war once upon a time. The problem then was allied ties kept falling in and making the war bigger and bigger.

By toppling the Sunnis in Iraq, we've made it more convenient for them to buddy up with Iran. If Pakistan and Afghanistan both continue to get attacked by extremists in their shared border region, they'll either team up to try to get that area cleaned out or declare war on the fugitives they claim reside on the opposite side of the border. My vote is that once the US pulls out, Afghanistan and Pakistan become very close to take care of those problems (or they incorporate those problems into the governments to satiate them which causes even more problems for the international community). The alliances then would keep building and you could very well have a general alliance of people from North Africa, the middle east, central Asia, etc, all united under a common religion and, in some cases, a common cultural identity as well.

In my opinion, it's what's coming if we keep fighting wars the way we do.

Pony Boy
07-22-2011, 11:52 AM
I don't know the percentage, but a large majority of any major terrorist attack I've ever heard of my life time are committed by Arab Muslims.

Are you serious, I bet it carried out by a granny wearing an explosive diaper......

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 11:55 AM
I wouldnt dismiss their capacity to do damage, but it doesnt exactly behoove them to start a war. I'm not sure the benefit of a World War in general. Economies/societies are way too interconnected now, a far cry from 1940's

Well, the other thing that I didn't mention in my apocalyptic prophesy was what happens when things go south if we ever find sustainable alternative energy. If these countries which have based all their success on oil suddenly went boobies up, how does that change the dynamics?

SonOfLe-loLang
07-22-2011, 11:55 AM
Currently you have the greater Christian world and you have the Muslim world. Muslim countries might have problems with each other (even up to the radical differences between Sunni and Shia) but much like Americans fought amongst ourselves and pulled together after 9/11, I think they too can be pulled together if it becomes a true "Us Vs them" thing.

So, you have heavily religious and fundamental governments, you have heavily religious and fundamental people, you have hate against Christians, you have hate against Americans in general for interventions outside what should be our relative sphere of influence, and you have the general religious tensions that arise after each of these attacks. These are all things that will very much split groups of people along ideological lines. We're not talking us teaming up with the evil communists Russia for the sake of defeating Hitler, we're talking great regions who could legitimately ally along the lines of the US and Great Briton. That divide will be great and VERY divisive.

All you need then is a fault down the middle. Terrorist attacks wont stop; there's no way to eradicate all terrorists. Eventually one succeeds well enough that someone feels the need to retaliate the way we did after 9/11 and the dominoes begin to fall.

Remember, it just took the killing of Franz Ferdinand to start a war once upon a time. The problem then was allied ties kept falling in and making the war bigger and bigger.

By toppling the Sunnis in Iraq, we've made it more convenient for them to buddy up with Iran. If Pakistan and Afghanistan both continue to get attacked by extremists in their shared border region, they'll either team up to try to get that area cleaned out or declare war on the fugitives they claim reside on the opposite side of the border. My vote is that once the US pulls out, Afghanistan and Pakistan become very close to take care of those problems (or they incorporate those problems into the governments to satiate them which causes even more problems for the international community). The alliances then would keep building and you could very well have a general alliance of people from North Africa, the middle east, central Asia, etc, all united under a common religion and, in some cases, a common cultural identity as well.

In my opinion, it's what's coming if we keep fighting wars the way we do.

I'm just not buying it. It would be too lopsided and the world is a much different place than it was 50 years ago. if there is to be a future world war. I assume it would be a china/america/EU conflict, and the chances of that happening anytime soon are slim/none considering our economies are completely intertwined.

elsid13
07-22-2011, 11:56 AM
This part doesn't make sense to me. It's just a strange combination of events. Why would a Islamist group attack a youth camp? I'm not saying it's something they wouldn't do, but why would they? Why alert the country by bombing it's prime minister then attack some kids out on an island. There is a possibility of political motivation behind this attack since the kids were there at a youth camp for the Labour party. There is a definite possibility this attack came from within.

Soft target of high visibility event. Similar to the actions in Spain and the attacks in India

SonOfLe-loLang
07-22-2011, 11:56 AM
Well, the other thing that I didn't mention in my apocalyptic prophesy was what happens when things go south if we ever find sustainable alternative energy. If these countries which have based all their success on oil suddenly went boobies up, how does that change the dynamics?

I do always appreciate the term "boobies up!"

Archer81
07-22-2011, 11:57 AM
You're right. They're also backed by a few third world nations with the equivalent of Canada's fire power.

Your claim is completely absurd.

Pakistan? Iran?

Call me when chunks of the EU and Russia and China go fundamental Islam


WWI was sparked by a terrorist act using handguns.

Germany, France and Italy are seeing a drop in their native born populations. The only segments with regular growth are muslim. Russia also is going to see a demographic shift where at least 1/5th of their population will be muslim in the immediate future. These pockets of Islam are not normalizing to French, German, Italian or Russian culture. They are maintaining their ties to the ****house sandboxes their families left. They are creating little neighborhoodistans in European cities. Western Europe is going to change. It would not shock me if in 2050 our most dependable European allies are Poland and the Ukraine.

:Broncos:

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 12:00 PM
I'm just not buying it. It would be too lopsided and the world is a much different place than it was 50 years ago. if there is to be a future world war. I assume it would be a china/america/EU conflict, and the chances of that happening anytime soon are slim/none considering our economies are completely intertwined.

China, America, and the EU are all too money dependent to crap on each other. The problem with those people who live in misery is they're so accustomed to it, they can't be tempted as easily. The money lovers will bite their tongue many, many times before a reaction while those with less to lose are much more reactive.

alkemical
07-22-2011, 12:04 PM
A 3gw solution, will not win against a 4gw opponent.

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 12:10 PM
A 3gw solution, will not win against a 4gw opponent.

Another important aspect. If anyone is experienced in this type of warfare, it'd be the Muslim countries. Just from my experiences in Iraq, I could draw you plans that would leave the US government in a huge moral dilemma (I never would, leave my clearance alone and quit spying on me, Aholes!) and you have to figure other people are more capable than I am.

The US could never drop a nuke on a civilized area again and the other side wouldn't hesitate to do it. The US would try to overpower them with weaponry while those other countries would show nothing capable of being overpowered.

elsid13
07-22-2011, 12:13 PM
Another important aspect. If anyone is experienced in this type of warfare, it'd be the Muslim countries. Just from my experiences in Iraq, I could draw you plans that would leave the US government in a huge moral dilemma (I never would, leave my clearance alone and quit spying on me, Aholes!) and you have to figure other people are more capable than I am.

The US could never drop a nuke on a civilized area again and the other side wouldn't hesitate to do it. The US would try to overpower them with weaponry while those other countries would show nothing capable of being overpowered.

You don't even need experience just use the DC Sniper Case as model, throw in some random internet information and you could create a **** storm.

The good news is that they are just as stupid as we are and they make as many or more mistakes then we do when come to executing.

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 12:16 PM
You don't even need experience just use the DC Sniper Case as model, throw in some random internet information and you could create a **** storm.

The good news is that they are just as stupid as we are and they make as many or more mistakes then we do when come to executing.

Exactly.

We should be absolutely ecstatic that the terrorists so far can't seem to plan. They keep shooting half court shots when they could have beat us ten times over by just sticking to layups.

elsid13
07-22-2011, 12:22 PM
Exactly.

We should be absolutely ecstatic that the terrorists so far can't seem to plan. They keep shooting half court shots when they could have beat us ten times over by just sticking to layups.

I have believed for long time that the Islamic fundamentalism school are reason they fail when comes to analyzing and planning. Their thought pattern are trained to rote memorization (of the Koren) vs. problem solving as seen in Western education.

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 12:27 PM
I have believed for long time that the Islamic fundamentalism school are reason they fail when comes to analyzing and planning. Their thought pattern are trained to rote memorization (of the Koren) vs. problem solving as seen in Western education.

Excellent point, never thought about that.

jhns
07-22-2011, 12:43 PM
Yahoo news says they have confirmed the shooting is linked to the bombing.

Edit: Maybe not, they took down the breaking news banner right after I posted.

Kaylore
07-22-2011, 12:43 PM
The good news is that they are just as stupid as we are and they make as many or more mistakes then we do when come to executing.

Yes this. And this is why there won't be another world war. They are too one dimensional, too divided, and most of all, too stupid to do anything but piss off everyone.

I will say this, if this goes on, and western countries start retaliating, militarily, economically, etc., these countries citizens are going to turn on these fools.

Consider if some crazed hicks were bombing different countries around the world and were based out of the US. Wouldn't you be pissed? I guess not because we wouldn't tolerate it. I'm sure they're getting tired of it by now.

Shananahan
07-22-2011, 01:00 PM
this guy is translating a muslim extremest web forum and posting them on his twitter feed.....
Thanks for this. Even if the people he is transcribing for are not guilty of the attack, it's always refreshing to hear from those who rejoice the death of innocent people and wish it upon America.

bronco militia
07-22-2011, 01:07 PM
Thanks for this. Even if the people he is transcribing for are not guilty of the attack, it's always refreshing to hear from those who rejoice the death of innocent people and wish it upon America.

http://cdn.epicski.com/a/a0/1000x500px-LL-a0560b4d_NotSureIfSerious.jpg

epicSocialism4tw
07-22-2011, 01:16 PM
I wasn't sure if this was a joke or not, but then seeing that it was issued by the Obama administration DHS, I knew it was a joke.

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/K7q3bWEvl7o?version=3"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/K7q3bWEvl7o?version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></object>

Shananahan
07-22-2011, 01:30 PM
Of course I wasn't being serious, dude. This shiit is terrible.

TheReverend
07-22-2011, 01:58 PM
WWI was sparked by a terrorist act using handguns.

Germany, France and Italy are seeing a drop in their native born populations. The only segments with regular growth are muslim. Russia also is going to see a demographic shift where at least 1/5th of their population will be muslim in the immediate future. These pockets of Islam are not normalizing to French, German, Italian or Russian culture. They are maintaining their ties to the ****house sandboxes their families left. They are creating little neighborhoodistans in European cities. Western Europe is going to change. It would not shock me if in 2050 our most dependable European allies are Poland and the Ukraine.

:Broncos:

Yeah, still no. Fact remains, most Muslims DO find this kind of action deplorable and condemn it and want nothing to do with it.

Another 40 years of progress, education and globalization should do more to bury this train of thought than promote it.

epicSocialism4tw
07-22-2011, 02:06 PM
Yeah, still no. Fact remains, most Muslims DO find this kind of action deplorable and condemn it and want nothing to do with it.

Another 40 years of progress, education and globalization should do more to bury this train of thought than promote it.

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. The truth of the matter is that "most muslims" live in some sort of theocracy/autocracy and are regularly inundated with violent propaganda from religious leaders that urges "jihad" in many different forms.

Most muslims do not live in the West, and are not integrated into Western culture. American muslims are somewhat unique. Even moreso than English and French muslims who are largely walled-off into cultural enclaves within the greater western culture and are even reacting violently against it. France is having problems.

The truth of the matter is that the entire muslim world is saturated with anti-US/anti-Israel propaganda. The truth of the matter is also that many of these muslim nations react very strongly (violently) against even relatively minor crimes. To respond to a perceived crime with violence is not an extreme thought, its a logical extension from the greater philosophical culture. Its definitely something that the less sophisticated (and there are many less sophisticated) individuals in the culture wouldn't be able to break into nuances.

The answer here is not to just build internal walls against muslims and to push them away, but the answer isn't to ignore the realities of the situation either. That's what Bill Clinton did with Bin Laden.

NYBronc
07-22-2011, 02:13 PM
UPDATE 5:02 p.m.: Police say the gunman is a Norwegian.

Witnesses described the suspect as "blond" and "Nordic-looking." Late Friday, Knut Storberegt, Norway's royal minister of justice and the police, confirmed that he is a Norwegian from Utoya. Police said he is also believed to have been invoved in the bombing that killed seven people earlier in the day in Oslo, about 25 miles away.

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/07/22/7143472-police-utoya-shooter-was-local-man

TheReverend
07-22-2011, 02:22 PM
I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

First person experience during a declared war.

...How did you come to your conclusion?

epicSocialism4tw
07-22-2011, 03:07 PM
First person experience during a declared war.

...How did you come to your conclusion?

U haz anecdote ?

Inkana7
07-22-2011, 03:12 PM
First person experience during a declared war.

...How did you come to your conclusion?

Heh, thank you. And you're 100% correct. There was a recent article on Time about how the Arab Spring has brought centrist Muslim policies more into the spotlight in lieu of radicals. Osama Bin Laden masterminded Al-Qaeda with the end goal of freeing most of the Arab world from US-backed dictators through the weakening of the United States. Well, the Arab Spring accomplished this through popular uprisings, and it looks like (at least in Egypt) these protesters won't rest until they have a true Liberal Democracy.

There will always be extremists. Hell, the 19th Century saw countless attacks and assassinations led by Socialists, Nationalists and Anarchists that led to the death of a U.S. President and a Russian Tsar. The Muslim World is not plotting a campaign of world domination.

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 03:14 PM
Heh, thank you. And you're 100% correct. There was a recent article on Time about how the Arab Spring has brought centrist Muslim policies more into the spotlight in lieu of radicals. Osama Bin Laden masterminded Al-Qaeda with the end goal of freeing most of the Arab world from US-backed dictators through the weakening of the United States. Well, the Arab Spring accomplished this through popular uprisings, and it looks like (at least in Egypt) these protesters won't rest until they have a true Liberal Democracy.

There will always be extremists. Hell, the 19th Century saw countless attacks and assassinations led by Socialists, Nationalists and Anarchists that led to the death of a U.S. President and a Russian Tsar. The Muslim World is not plotting a campaign of world domination.

Wait and see the government they institute first. Everyone has good intentions when they're idealists. It's when the realist takes over that you see what you've really got to deal with.

SonOfLe-loLang
07-22-2011, 03:15 PM
UPDATE 5:02 p.m.: Police say the gunman is a Norwegian.

Witnesses described the suspect as "blond" and "Nordic-looking." Late Friday, Knut Storberegt, Norway's royal minister of justice and the police, confirmed that he is a Norwegian from Utoya. Police said he is also believed to have been invoved in the bombing that killed seven people earlier in the day in Oslo, about 25 miles away.

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/07/22/7143472-police-utoya-shooter-was-local-man

ah, so a neo-nazi did this?

epicSocialism4tw
07-22-2011, 03:17 PM
Heh, thank you. And you're 100% correct. There was a recent article on Time about how the Arab Spring has brought centrist Muslim policies more into the spotlight in lieu of radicals. Osama Bin Laden masterminded Al-Qaeda with the end goal of freeing most of the Arab world from US-backed dictators through the weakening of the United States. Well, the Arab Spring accomplished this through popular uprisings, and it looks like (at least in Egypt) these protesters won't rest until they have a true Liberal Democracy.

There will always be extremists. Hell, the 19th Century saw countless attacks and assassinations led by Socialists, Nationalists and Anarchists that led to the death of a U.S. President and a Russian Tsar. The Muslim World is not plotting a campaign of world domination.

Time magazine is a noted leftist media outlet, and is not a source anyone should trust.

It is well-documented that the Muslim Brotherhood, the organization that the "Arab Spring" revolves around is a fully-committed theocratic organization run by religious extremists.

SonOfLe-loLang
07-22-2011, 03:21 PM
Time magazine is a noted leftist media outlet, and is not a source anyone should trust.

It is well-documented that the Muslim Brotherhood, the organization that the "Arab Spring" revolves around is a fully-committed theocratic organization run by religious extremists.

Dude, you think every source of media is some leftist source. Time Magazine is hardly a leftist source. If you wanna say some of MSNBC's programming is...fine. If you want to say the majority of the NYTimes opinion section is fine...but TIME?

Inkana7
07-22-2011, 03:21 PM
Time magazine is a noted leftist media outlet, and is not a source anyone should trust.

Jesus, give this thing with the media a rest. I guess only the National Review is trustworthy to you?

It is well-documented that the Muslim Brotherhood, the organization that the "Arab Spring" revolves around is a fully-committed theocratic organization run by religious extremists.

Who have vowed not to run a candidate for the Egyptian Presidency, ousted the guy who said he would from their party, and have also vowed to only run for less than a majority of spots in the proposed legislative body.

Honestly dude, I really fear for your mental state these days. You show real paranoia towards just about everything.

epicSocialism4tw
07-22-2011, 03:27 PM
Dude, you think every source of media is some leftist source. Time Magazine is hardly a leftist source. If you wanna say some of MSNBC's programming is...fine. If you want to say the majority of the NYTimes opinion section is fine...but TIME?

Yes. Time is egregiously liberal.

You are an admitted socialist, so I'm sure that anything is just about to the right of your politics, but even "conservative" writers like Bill Krystol at Time are progressive moderates who lean left on many issues.

epicSocialism4tw
07-22-2011, 03:29 PM
Jesus, give this thing with the media a rest. I guess only the National Review is trustworthy to you?

Who have vowed not to run a candidate for the Egyptian Presidency, ousted the guy who said he would from their party, and have also vowed to only run for less than a majority of spots in the proposed legislative body.

Honestly dude, I really fear for your mental state these days. You show real paranoia towards just about everything.

You would love for us all to "give the media thing a rest" because it is bothersome for those who just like to close their eyes and hum away the white elephant in the room. I'd much rather talk about it.

Ah, its the ol' "I'm a liberal and conservatives are crazy" bit.

You guys are too predictable.

You're unable to present a decent argument on just about any modern political issue, so it immediately turns into "crazy, racist, sexist".

Tell me again how the Muslim Brotherhood is a moderate secular organization. Hilarious!

SonOfLe-loLang
07-22-2011, 03:48 PM
Yes. Time is egregiously liberal.

You are an admitted socialist, so I'm sure that anything is just about to the right of your politics, but even "conservative" writers like Bill Krystol at Time are progressive moderates who lean left on many issues.

Now Kristol is a moderate? You have gone off the deep end. President Obama is a moderate. Bill Kristol is not a moderate. I think your version of center/right is Sarah Palin/Michele Bachmann and ANYTHING left to that is SOCIALIST COMMUNIST BLAAHHHHHHH

epicSocialism4tw
07-22-2011, 03:55 PM
Now Kristol is a moderate? You have gone off the deep end. President Obama is a moderate. Bill Kristol is not a moderate. I think your version of center/right is Sarah Palin/Michele Bachmann and ANYTHING left to that is SOCIALIST COMMUNIST BLAAHHHHHHH

Not at all. My view of the political spectrum is based on where the country stands. This is a center-right country. Bill Kristol is absolutely a moderate progressive. And no, Obama is not a moderate. There's nothing about Obama that is moderate. He hast to play to the center-right population for the dems to have a shot to get any of their policy enacted.

If you think the guy who spent all of his time implementing Obamacare and trying to push Cap & Tax rather than fixing the economy is a moderate, then you are seriously far left on the spectrum with no view of the world outside of your own politics.

Name a conservative policy of Obamas.

barryr
07-22-2011, 04:01 PM
Many muslims have moved into Norway the last decade or so, just as happened to much of Europe. So not hard to believe some terrorists also got into Norway. Apparently some Iraqi cleric living in Norway promised bombings for some court ruling against him and Norway also has troops in the ME someplace, so they I am sure makes them a target too. It will be interesting to see how Norway reacts and if they cater to terrorism or fight it.

epicSocialism4tw
07-22-2011, 04:03 PM
Many muslims have moved into Norway the last decade or so, just as happened to much of Europe. So not hard to believe some terrorists also got into Norway. Apparently some Iraqi cleric living in Norway promised bombings for some court ruling against him and Norway also has troops in the ME someplace, so they I am sure makes them a target too. It will be interesting to see how Norway reacts and if they cater to terrorism or fight it.

This is europe. They'll cave.

barryr
07-22-2011, 04:09 PM
This is europe. They'll cave.

Probably, but they may surprise, you never know. It might take years before they get tired of it though.

Houshyamama
07-22-2011, 04:14 PM
Now Kristol is a moderate? You have gone off the deep end. President Obama is a moderate. Bill Kristol is not a moderate. I think your version of center/right is Sarah Palin/Michele Bachmann and ANYTHING left to that is SOCIALIST COMMUNIST BLAAHHHHHHH

The majority of political thought is to the left of epic so his view comes from that angle. His opinion, misguided as it is, is not surprising.

epicSocialism4tw
07-22-2011, 04:19 PM
The majority of political thought is to the left of epic so his view comes from that angle. His opinion, misguided as it is, is not surprising.

Yes, the majority of political thought is left of libertarianism, but the majority of polical thought is right of center.

The other poster is an admitted socialist. That's an extremist position in the united states on a level much farther from center than is libertarianism, which is based on bare-bones constitutional government.

Socialism is directly in opposition to US constitutional govt.

Archer81
07-22-2011, 04:22 PM
Yeah, still no. Fact remains, most Muslims DO find this kind of action deplorable and condemn it and want nothing to do with it.

Another 40 years of progress, education and globalization should do more to bury this train of thought than promote it.


Maybe. But if Islam majority countries are as backwards as they are 1400 years into Islam's existence I doubt 40 more years will see a miraculous turnaround.


:Broncos:

cutthemdown
07-22-2011, 04:24 PM
Euro countries will make laws to try and thwart Muslim activity. No veils, no mosques, all could be on the table.

Archer81
07-22-2011, 04:24 PM
The Muslim World is not plotting a campaign of world domination.


Islam's history contradicts this completely.


:Broncos:

Houshyamama
07-22-2011, 04:27 PM
Yes, the majority of political thought is left of libertarianism, but the majority of polical thought is right of center.

The other poster is an admitted socialist. That's an extremist position in the united states on a level much farther from center than is libertarianism, which is based on bare-bones constitutional government.

Socialism is directly in opposition to US constitutional govt.

Straight from Wikipedia:

The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy states a strict view of libertarianism "holds that agents initially fully own themselves and have moral powers to acquire property rights in external things under certain conditions," and that "in a looser sense, libertarianism is any view that approximates the strict view."[55] Also noted is that libertarianism is not a "right-wing" doctrine because of its opposition to laws restricting adult consensual sexual relationships and drug use, and its opposition to imposing religious views or practices and compulsory military service.

I consider myself more libertarian than anything else. Do you endorse complete separation of church and state?

epicSocialism4tw
07-22-2011, 04:30 PM
Straight from Wikipedia:

The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy states a strict view of libertarianism "holds that agents initially fully own themselves and have moral powers to acquire property rights in external things under certain conditions," and that "in a looser sense, libertarianism is any view that approximates the strict view."[55] Also noted is that libertarianism is not a "right-wing" doctrine because of its opposition to laws restricting adult consensual sexual relationships and drug use, and its opposition to imposing religious views or practices and compulsory military service.

I consider myself more libertarian than anything else. Do you endorse complete separation of church and state?

You mean like the US gov't spending money to prop up Islamic regimes?

barryr
07-22-2011, 04:31 PM
Euro countries will make laws to try and thwart Muslim activity. No veils, no mosques, all could be on the table.

France tried the veil thing and despite riots by muslims and burning of streets, I think they have kept that law. I would be surprised if no mosques allowed, but we'll see. I don't care if mosques are built as long as they aren't teaching that islamic crap and kill the infidel stuff. But if that has to be included with mosques, then no real other choice.

epicSocialism4tw
07-22-2011, 04:33 PM
Maybe. But if Islam majority countries are as backwards as they are 1400 years into Islam's existence I doubt 40 more years will see a miraculous turnaround.


:Broncos:

What he also neglected to mention is that THEY DO NOT WANT WESTERN EDUCATION.

People are naive to think "Oh, if we just show up and 'educate' these savages, then everything will be cool."

They do not want it. They want madrasas. They want what they have.

I mean really...who in their right mind would want the same limp 'education' that we give our people?

Houshyamama
07-22-2011, 04:34 PM
You mean like the US gov't spending money to prop up Islamic regimes?

Uh, no.

SonOfLe-loLang
07-22-2011, 04:38 PM
Not at all. My view of the political spectrum is based on where the country stands. This is a center-right country. Bill Kristol is absolutely a moderate progressive. And no, Obama is not a moderate. There's nothing about Obama that is moderate. He hast to play to the center-right population for the dems to have a shot to get any of their policy enacted.

If you think the guy who spent all of his time implementing Obamacare and trying to push Cap & Tax rather than fixing the economy is a moderate, then you are seriously far left on the spectrum with no view of the world outside of your own politics.

Name a conservative policy of Obamas.

Healthcare: way to the right of Nixon's. Right of Dole's plan in 94. Its essentially romney's plan, and a give away to the insurance industry. Hardly a "socialist" plan. Liberals wanted the conversation to start at single payer. It was never once even MENTIONED. Hell, there isnt even a public option in it.

Taxes have never been lower. He extended the bush tax cuts (appalling)

Government actually has shrunk under Obama (in the amount of jobs)

This whole debt ceiling mess? Obama's solution is pretty conservative (we're barely gonna raise revenue at all, while providing the budget with draconian like cuts, especially to our social programs.)

If you havent noticed, we're still fighting wars in afghanistan and iraq.

Wall St. should love this guy as they got away with murder during the banking crisis and we really put no watchdog on them. They can still get away with murder.

Let me ask you this. What liberal policies has Obama enacted? Its a short list.

(also, i agree a lot of the country is center-right, but that doesnt mean everything left of that is some socialist take over.)

elsid13
07-22-2011, 04:42 PM
Well this thread will soon move to WRP forum, as certain members will be blaming Obama for things.

Archer81
07-22-2011, 04:45 PM
What he also neglected to mention is that THEY DO NOT WANT WESTERN EDUCATION.

People are naive to think "Oh, if we just show up and 'educate' these savages, then everything will be cool."

They do not want it. They want madrasas. They want what they have.

I mean really...who in their right mind would want the same limp 'education' that we give our people?


Alot of them sure come over to get it though. I think most people just want to live, work and raise their families in peace. In theory it would be nice if we could just all get along, but that is not possible. Differing world views will do that. Fundementally how do you relate to another cultural group when differences exist in regards to social order, government, man's role in government or even a major difference in the understanding of God's nature?

Islam is where it is because of how it sees the world and its role in it. Until Islam has its own enlightenment (highly unlikely) and subsequent liberalism of religious doctrine, they will remain where they are. Namely in conflict with everyone else everywhere else.

That's my opinion, anyway.

:Broncos:

epicSocialism4tw
07-22-2011, 05:02 PM
Uh, no.

What do you mean then?

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 07:59 PM
Just got back from a movie at the pool with the kid to see the count is now 87 total. Insane.

Just like we were talking about earlier: Bomb - 7 people killed. Take a gun and start randomly shooting people - 80 killed.

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 08:17 PM
A suspect in the shootings and the Oslo explosion was arrested. Though police did not release his name, Norwegian national broadcaster NRK identified him as 32-year-old Anders Behring Breivik and said police searched his Oslo apartment overnight. NRK and other Norwegian media posted pictures of the blond, blue-eyed Norwegian.
A police official said the suspect appears to have acted alone in both attacks, and that "it seems like that this is not linked to any international terrorist organizations at all." The official spoke on condition of anonymity because that information had not been officially released by Norway's police.
"It seems it's not Islamic-terror related," the official said. "This seems like a madman's work."
The official said the attack "is probably more Norway's Oklahoma City than it is Norway's World Trade Center." Domestic terrorists carried out the 1995 attack on a federal building in Oklahoma City, while foreign terrorists were responsible for the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.


http://news.yahoo.com/norway-horror-80-die-camp-shooting-7-blast-021706287.html

DivineBronco
07-22-2011, 08:23 PM
A suspect in the shootings and the Oslo explosion was arrested. Though police did not release his name, Norwegian national broadcaster NRK identified him as 32-year-old Anders Behring Breivik and said police searched his Oslo apartment overnight. NRK and other Norwegian media posted pictures of the blond, blue-eyed Norwegian.
A police official said the suspect appears to have acted alone in both attacks, and that "it seems like that this is not linked to any international terrorist organizations at all." The official spoke on condition of anonymity because that information had not been officially released by Norway's police.
"It seems it's not Islamic-terror related," the official said. "This seems like a madman's work."
The official said the attack "is probably more Norway's Oklahoma City than it is Norway's World Trade Center." Domestic terrorists carried out the 1995 attack on a federal building in Oklahoma City, while foreign terrorists were responsible for the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.


http://news.yahoo.com/norway-horror-80-die-camp-shooting-7-blast-021706287.html



I assume the people who pulled out their jump to conclusions mats will never click on this here topic again and wither away into the darkness

gyldenlove
07-22-2011, 08:32 PM
A suspect in the shootings and the Oslo explosion was arrested. Though police did not release his name, Norwegian national broadcaster NRK identified him as 32-year-old Anders Behring Breivik and said police searched his Oslo apartment overnight. NRK and other Norwegian media posted pictures of the blond, blue-eyed Norwegian.
A police official said the suspect appears to have acted alone in both attacks, and that "it seems like that this is not linked to any international terrorist organizations at all." The official spoke on condition of anonymity because that information had not been officially released by Norway's police.
"It seems it's not Islamic-terror related," the official said. "This seems like a madman's work."
The official said the attack "is probably more Norway's Oklahoma City than it is Norway's World Trade Center." Domestic terrorists carried out the 1995 attack on a federal building in Oklahoma City, while foreign terrorists were responsible for the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.


http://news.yahoo.com/norway-horror-80-die-camp-shooting-7-blast-021706287.html


Come on, this was obviously a right wing nutjob the whole time, islamic terror has always been and will always be about casualties and symbolic value. That is how it was in India, London, Madrid and 9/11.

Hitting a ministry and shooting up a political youth camp would achieve nothing compared to what bombing the central railstation and shooting up a downtown shopping center would have done. This was clearly a politically motivated attack.

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 08:36 PM
Come on, this was obviously a right wing nutjob the whole time, islamic terror has always been and will always be about casualties and symbolic value. That is how it was in India, London, Madrid and 9/11.

Hitting a ministry and shooting up a political youth camp would achieve nothing compared to what bombing the central railstation and shooting up a downtown shopping center would have done. This was clearly a politically motivated attack.

But it was interesting in that two Islamic terror groups laid claim to it almost immediately. Also, while you're generally right in hindsight, this seems no less prestigious an attack than the London bombings. Downtown square seems a bit more flashy than London bus.

epicSocialism4tw
07-22-2011, 08:55 PM
Come on, this was obviously a right wing nutjob the whole time, islamic terror has always been and will always be about casualties and symbolic value. That is how it was in India, London, Madrid and 9/11.

Hitting a ministry and shooting up a political youth camp would achieve nothing compared to what bombing the central railstation and shooting up a downtown shopping center would have done. This was clearly a politically motivated attack.

Let me guess...he may possibly at some infinitessimal point may have seen a target on Sarah Palin's PAC website. ::)

Inkana7
07-22-2011, 09:15 PM
But it was interesting in that two Islamic terror groups laid claim to it almost immediately. Also, while you're generally right in hindsight, this seems no less prestigious an attack than the London bombings. Downtown square seems a bit more flashy than London bus.

I remember watching 9/11 as it unfolded and not long after, some small-time Palestinian group claimed responsibility for it. Terrorist groups are always clamoring for publicity.

That One Guy
07-22-2011, 09:17 PM
I remember watching 9/11 as it unfolded and not long after, some small-time Palestinian group claimed responsibility for it. Terrorist groups are always clamoring for publicity.

Very true. You never do know until all the facts are out just what you're dealing with.

Inkana7
07-22-2011, 09:17 PM
Yes, the majority of political thought is left of libertarianism, but the majority of polical thought is right of center.

The other poster is an admitted socialist. That's an extremist position in the united states on a level much farther from center than is libertarianism, which is based on bare-bones constitutional government.

Socialism is directly in opposition to US constitutional govt.

Any state that has a government is socialist in some way. Somalia may be the only non-socialist state in the world, you should move there.

fdf
07-22-2011, 09:20 PM
Who's pissed at Norway?

This was clearly a right wing conspiracy. Folks who are angry about the Nobel Prize for Obama did this. Either that or Amish terrorists.

epicSocialism4tw
07-22-2011, 09:48 PM
This was clearly a right wing conspiracy. Folks who are angry about the Nobel Prize for Obama did this. Either that or Amish terrorists.

Sarah Palin had to be involved somehow as well.

epicSocialism4tw
07-22-2011, 09:49 PM
Any state that has a government is socialist in some way. Somalia may be the only non-socialist state in the world, you should move there.

Ah, so you're a socialist too?

SonOfLe-loLang
07-22-2011, 11:48 PM
Ah, so you're a socialist too?

Youre not far from turning into one of these violent nutjobs. YOURE PARANOID! Socialism is NOT EVIL.

Archer81
07-23-2011, 12:31 AM
Youre not far from turning into one of these violent nutjobs. YOURE PARANOID! Socialism is NOT EVIL.


Uh huh.


:Broncos:

SonOfLe-loLang
07-23-2011, 12:33 AM
Uh huh.


:Broncos:

Oh come on man, you're smarter than that. You may not agree with it, but its not EVIL. Geez. I don't agree with your side at all, but i dont think its because you want destruction.

Archer81
07-23-2011, 12:48 AM
Oh come on man, you're smarter than that. You may not agree with it, but its not EVIL. Geez. I don't agree with your side at all, but i dont think its because you want destruction.


Socialism is institutionalized mediocrity at its best. At its worst it is the USSR and Nazi Germany. I dont trust a government capable of giving you everything. It can just as easily take everything.


:Broncos:

conrad7120
07-23-2011, 01:37 AM
WOW, more than 90 people killed, most of them aged 14-20, and you guys turn it into a discussion about socialism... Good job guys, way to keep perspective on things!!!!

This is a link to a danish newspaper http://ekstrabladet.dk/nyheder/krigogkatastrofer/article1590732.ece which shows the gunman and a young boy in the water praying for his life... Dead bodies are lying in piles and yo can even see the water tuning red around one of the bodies in the left corner...

Please dont turn this into a political discussion, instead send prayers to the victims and all the people left behind... Thank you...

Houshyamama
07-23-2011, 01:38 AM
WOW, more than 90 people killed, most of them aged 14-20, and you guys turn it into a discussion about socialism... Good job guys, way to keep perspective on things!!!!

This is a link to a danish newspaper http://ekstrabladet.dk/nyheder/krigogkatastrofer/article1590732.ece which shows the gunman and a young boy in the water praying for his life... Dead bodies are lying in piles and yo can even see the water tuning red around one of the bodies in the left corner...

Please dont turn this into a political discussion, instead send prayers to the victims and all the people left behind... Thank you...

So messed up

Houshyamama
07-23-2011, 01:40 AM
About the shooter:
He has been arrested and is being questioned by the police. This is what I have been able to gather of info so far. Police are still considering the possibility that he did not act alone.
Name: Anders Behring Breivik
Age 32
Ethnic Norwegian
Considers himself a nationalist
Interviewed childhood friends says he turned extreme right wing towards the end of his 20s.
No earlier crimes and is unknown to the police
Considers himself conservative Christian
Started a company in 2009 called Geofarm and stated it would do farming. Using this company he got access to a lot of artifical fertilizers (means that this has been planned for some time)
Created a Twitter account 1 month ago and has only tweeted one tweet: «One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100 000 who have only interests»
Has been very active on online communities against "internationalism" (Document.no is one such site and has published all of his posts as a response to the events - [5] norsk/[6] english.)
Has strong opinions against immigrants, especially muslims
Is member of a pistol club and is a registered gun owner - has 2 registered guns
Lived most his life in Oslo (west side), but recently moved to Hedemark (further north)
Freemasonry member

TonyR
07-23-2011, 07:47 AM
Bill Kristol is absolutely a moderate progressive.

LOL You are SO lost.

TonyR
07-23-2011, 07:52 AM
Socialism is institutionalized mediocrity at its best.


Perhaps. But do you think Norway, Finland, and Sweden are "evil"? And how do you explain their standards of living and live expectancies which are at or above the levels here?

(Apologies to the guy who correctly posted above how ridiculous it is that this thread has become a debate about "socialism"...)

rugbythug
07-23-2011, 08:02 AM
Youre not far from turning into one of these violent nutjobs. YOURE PARANOID! Socialism is NOT EVIL.

Neither is fascism

rugbythug
07-23-2011, 08:06 AM
Perhaps. But do you think Norway, Finland, and Sweden are "evil"? And how do you explain their standards of living and live expectancies which are at or above the levels here?

(Apologies to the guy who correctly posted above how ridiculous it is that this thread has become a debate about "socialism"...)

I do business with companies in these countries not sure where you get that their standard of living is higher.

gyldenlove
07-23-2011, 08:30 AM
But it was interesting in that two Islamic terror groups laid claim to it almost immediately. Also, while you're generally right in hindsight, this seems no less prestigious an attack than the London bombings. Downtown square seems a bit more flashy than London bus.

They always do, it is much easier to piggy-back on someone elses dirty work than actually plan and execute something yourself. I believe 5 or 6 different groups claimed the Mumbai attacks within 24 hours (and interestingly the group that actually did it, didn't come forward).

I believe the bus was a mistimed explosion, that bomb was meant for somewhere else as I remember.

SonOfLe-loLang
07-23-2011, 08:30 AM
I do business with companies in these countries not sure where you get that their standard of living is higher.

Always at the top of standard of living indexes. Have you ever been to Denmark or Sweden? Beautiful

gyldenlove
07-23-2011, 08:39 AM
I do business with companies in these countries not sure where you get that their standard of living is higher.

Given that there is no disambiguous definition of standard of living it is difficult to compare, but certainly poverty rates are much lower, income inequality is much lower, crime rates are lower, unemployment rates are lower, social mobility is higher, inflation is lower.

Que
07-23-2011, 09:18 AM
Time magazine is a noted leftist media outlet, and is not a source anyone should trust.

It is well-documented that the Muslim Brotherhood, the organization that the "Arab Spring" revolves around is a fully-committed theocratic organization run by religious extremists.

Tool

TonyR
07-23-2011, 09:44 AM
I do business with companies in these countries not sure where you get that their standard of living is higher.

I actually said "at or above", not "higher". And yes, our top tier probably has a higher standard of living. But from what I understand their across board standard is as good or better than ours because they don't have the poverty that inflicts such a large part of our population.

Here's some reading for you.

http://www.forbes.com/2011/01/19/norway-denmark-finland-business-washington-world-happiest-countries.html

http://www.prosperity.com/

Norway, Denmark, Finland, and Sweden are 1, 2, 3, and 6, respectively. The U.S. is 10th.

fdf
07-23-2011, 09:46 AM
Youre not far from turning into one of these violent nutjobs. YOURE PARANOID! Socialism is NOT EVIL.

Count me as another nut job then. It's a variant of tyranny. Tyranny is evil.

SonOfLe-loLang
07-23-2011, 09:55 AM
Count me as another nut job then. It's a variant of tyranny. Tyranny is evil.

Bull. It's communal living. Ussr/Cuba were totalitarian dictatorships under the guise of socialism. It's not real socialism. (and china is a whole nother story, but there's probably no right way to govern a billion people) As mentioned, look at the scandinavaian socialist democracies and tell me if those are oppressive states.

That One Guy
07-23-2011, 09:56 AM
I actually said "at or above", not "higher". And yes, our top tier probably has a higher standard of living. But from what I understand their across board standard is as good or better than ours because they don't have the poverty that inflicts such a large part of our population.

Here's some reading for you.

http://www.forbes.com/2011/01/19/norway-denmark-finland-business-washington-world-happiest-countries.html

http://www.prosperity.com/

Norway, Denmark, Finland, and Sweden are 1, 2, 3, and 6, respectively. The U.S. is 10th.

So if we get rid of our poor people, we'll have a higher standard of living. Lets pack up our ghettos and trailer parks and ship them over then we'll see how things work.

Socialism works a lot better for smaller groups. The larger it gets, the easier it is to exploit the bureaucracy, and the more waste there is.

fdf
07-23-2011, 09:57 AM
Oh come on man, you're smarter than that. You may not agree with it, but its not EVIL. Geez. I don't agree with your side at all, but i dont think its because you want destruction.

One does not have to intend evil to be evil. Mao Tse Tung, Stalin and Hitler all thought they were great guys, I'm sure, with the best of intentions.

The objective result of these, or other socialists, getting power, is evil. That the folks who do it are willfully blind to the inevitable is not an excuse.

SonOfLe-loLang
07-23-2011, 10:08 AM
One does not have to intend evil to be evil. Mao Tse Tung, Stalin and Hitler all thought they were great guys, I'm sure, with the best of intentions.

The objective result of these, or other socialists, getting power, is evil. That the folks who do it are willfully blind to the inevitable is not an excuse.

You keep equating socialism with a dictatorship. That's a bastardized version of it. Again, go to Scandinavia and tell me how awful it is. As far as power hungry assholes go, they are on every government including our own

fdf
07-23-2011, 10:16 AM
Bull. It's communal living. Ussr/Cuba were totalitarian dictatorships under the guise of socialism. It's not real socialism. (and china is a whole nother story, but there's probably no right way to govern a billion people) As mentioned, look at the scandinavaian socialist democracies and tell me if those are oppressive states.

"Its not real socialism."

That's always the excuse. In the 30's thru 70's, the world was full of folks extolling the virtues of real socialism in the Soviet Union, China, _________. In fact, before Hitler turned on Stalin, many progressives in the US were good with Hitler (he wasn't as good as dear Uncle Joe; but he was next best).

In fact, socialism posits a flexible human nature that doesn't exist. When humans won't get on the road to utopia, coercion and a police state to make them conform to socialist theory are inevitable. So really, Mao, Hitler and Stalin were real socialists trying to make an unworkable system work with force.

"As mentioned, look at the scandinavaian socialist democracies and tell me if those are oppressive states."

These are your best counter-example. I've spent a lot of time in Sweden. It's a nice place and the Swedes I know live happy, productive lives. Many get quite wealthy doing capitalist-type things. It seems to work pretty well. My strong suscpicion is the reason things haven't gone south there yet is that the total population is smaller than a medium size US city, combined with the strong monoculture there. Everyone looks and thinks the same and they are a very orderly people who self-police (eg the buses charge fare. There is a back door on the double buses that opens at every stop and in all my time there, I have never seen a Swede jump fare--try that in America. Swedes leave their baby buggies with babies in them on the busy sidewalk outside of restaurants while mom and dad eat--try that in America.). Swedes still have a very strong work and honesty ethic and the notion of just lazing around on the government dole or abusing the health care system or jumping the bus is a big subject of shame. As the small minority population there grows to a substantial portion of the population, they will not share Swedish culture and things will fall apart. I would be very surprised if Scandanavia turns into an exception to an otherwise unbroken historic example.

Or, to put it another way, the system there is not trying to twist Swedes into something they are not. The culture and shame keeps people in line and usually police force is unnecessary.

SonOfLe-loLang
07-23-2011, 10:24 AM
It won't let me quote you, I'm on my phone. I never said America should completely emulate Sweden, I'm saying it's proof socialistic society isn't "evil.". And read a simple wikipedia entry on socialism. It's economic, there's nothing about dictatorships. It was bastardized socialism under a totalitarian dictatorship, some of who were war mongers. They aren't comparable

Some of Americas most popular programs are socialist policies. Medicare, ss, etc. It's not this inherently evil thing. You're buying into the propaganda. You may not agree with it, but it's not evil. I ****ing can't stand modern day conservatives, but I don't think they are evil, even though I think they are ruining this country

epicSocialism4tw
07-23-2011, 11:34 AM
Bull. It's communal living. Ussr/Cuba were totalitarian dictatorships under the guise of socialism. It's not real socialism. (and china is a whole nother story, but there's probably no right way to govern a billion people) As mentioned, look at the scandinavaian socialist democracies and tell me if those are oppressive states.

Socialism is absolutely evil.

Scandanavian "democracies" are propped up by the UN, who is propped up by the United States.

Those countries get turned over without the US. They're Germany right now...or whatever Germany would have become. Then they would have been a proper socialist country.

epicSocialism4tw
07-23-2011, 11:37 AM
It won't let me quote you, I'm on my phone. I never said America should completely emulate Sweden, I'm saying it's proof socialistic society isn't "evil.". And read a simple wikipedia entry on socialism. It's economic, there's nothing about dictatorships. It was bastardized socialism under a totalitarian dictatorship, some of who were war mongers. They aren't comparable

What you don't understand is that socialism, by its nature, is oppressive. Does a dictator enter government under a constitution like ours? Nope. But the further we slide down the socialist slippery slope, the more probable it becomes. The more regulatory agencies and police states there are, the easier it becomes.

That's why the second amendment is of necessity in this country, and its why the socialists continually try to hack away at it.

SonOfLe-loLang
07-23-2011, 11:43 AM
What you don't understand is that socialism, by its nature, is oppressive. Does a dictator enter government under a constitution like ours? Nope. But the further we slide down the socialist slippery slope, the more probable it becomes. The more regulatory agencies and police states there are, the easier it becomes.

That's why the second amendment is of necessity in this country, and its why the socialists continually try to hack away at it.

Wrong. Socialism, by nature, is communal. In practice, essentially, democratic socialism is paying high taxes for communal property such as healthcare, schools, childcare, and whatever. Its money thats funnel BACK into the community. It's called sharing. Its the first thing you learned in kindergarten. The community cannot function without eachother. It makes sense to keep everyone happy and strong.

You have ZERO clue what democratic socialism is and how it works in practice. ZERO. And to suggest that you need your guns to SHOOT people who are NOT trying to take away your rights and, instead, trying to ensure that every citizen is given a fair foundation to succed? Youre ****ing sick.

epicSocialism4tw
07-23-2011, 11:58 AM
Wrong. Socialism, by nature, is communal. In practice, essentially, democratic socialism is paying high taxes for communal property such as healthcare, schools, childcare, and whatever. Its money thats funnel BACK into the community. It's called sharing. Its the first thing you learned in kindergarten. The community cannot function without eachother. It makes sense to keep everyone happy and strong.

People do not need a political class to share. In fact, the United States is proof positive that sharing is best accomplished by individuals and their own collective individual efforts rather than by some detatched political class who are prone to corruption.

That's what has made America unique, and has made it the economic engine for the planet.

You have ZERO clue what democratic socialism is and how it works in practice. ZERO. And to suggest that you need your guns to SHOOT people who are NOT trying to take away your rights and, instead, trying to ensure that every citizen is given a fair foundation to succed? Youre ****ing sick.

The citizenry having access to personal defense ensures that the citizen can protect himself given the incapability of the government to provide that defense and the oppressive nature of governments throughout history.

I think that you're the sick one, son. Giving away your unalienable rights to a faceless bureaucracy is downright insane. Putting your trust in it is even more insane.

DenverBrit
07-23-2011, 12:15 PM
Socialism is absolutely evil.

Scandanavian "democracies" are propped up by the UN, who is propped up by the United States.

Those countries get turned over without the US. They're Germany right now...or whatever Germany would have become. Then they would have been a proper socialist country.

You mean Fascist.

Nazis were not socialists, they were right wing racists who were anti communism.

Nazism is a politically syncretic variety of fascism, which incorporates policies, tactics and philosophic tenets from left and right-wing politics. Italian fascism and German Nazism reject liberalism, democracy and Marxism.[65]

What is about the far right and their inability to understand history??

El Minion
07-23-2011, 12:23 PM
It was obviously white christian elderly men from the southern united states.

Yes it is in fact, you obviously can smell your own (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/23/anders-behring-breivik-norway-attacks), i.e. religious fundamentalist terrorists.

Oh wait, that's right it is wrong to judge, no need to mention his christian right-wing fundamentalist beliefs, that's being anti-christian and bigoted.


Anders Behring Breivik: profile of a mass murderer

A right-wing fundamentalist with a hatred for Norway's left, multiculturalism and Muslims (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/23/anders-behring-breivik-norway-attacks)
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2007/10/17/peter_beaumont_140x140.jpg (http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/peterbeaumont)
Peter Beaumont (http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/peterbeaumont)
guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/)<time datetime="2011-07-23T18:30BST" pubdate="">
Saturday 23 July 2011 18.30 BST</time>

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2011/7/23/1311440069473/Anders-Behring-Breivik-007.jpg

Anders Behring Breivik, 32, has been charged with mass murder for killing 92 Norwegians in twin attacks of bombing in central Oslo and massacre of youths at a youth camp on Utøya island. Photograph: AFP

Not far from of Elverum, 80 miles north of Oslo, a cluster of clapboard buildings, white and red, sits under a low mountain ridge at the end of a dirt track.

It is to here, Asta, that armed police came on Friday night with orders to search a farmhouse and buildings for information about 32-year-old Anders Behring Breivik, the man charged with killing at least 91 of his countrymen. One of two properties linked to a man accused of bombing central Oslo before commencing a shooting spree at a political youth camp on the island of Utøya, the interest in the farm – which Breivik had registered as a vegetable-growing business called GeoFarm – was obvious. In May, he had six tonnes of chemical fertiliser delivered which police believe was used in the making of his bomb.

The search of the Asta property, as well as Breivik's home in Oslo, came as investigators started piecing together a profile of the man behind the worst attack on Norway (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/norway) since the second world war. They are attempting to burrow deep into his beliefs and to try to understand what he hoped to achieve.

A friend told the Norwegian newspaper VG that Breivik had been from the far right (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/far-right) politically since at least his late twenties, when he began posting a series of controversial opinions on Facebook and the Norwegian site Document.no, which is critical of Islam.

What has emerged so far paints a disturbing picture: a Christian fundamentalist with a deep hatred of multiculturalism, of the left and of Muslims, who had written disparagingly of prominent Norwegian politicians.

Raised in Oslo, he is reported to have attended the same Smestad primary school as Norway's crown prince, later attending schools in Oslo's Gaustad and the Handelsgymnasium. Writing later about his teenage years, he would describe racial tension between Norwegians and young immigrants.

Another significant event was being baptised into the Protestant church of "his own free will" at the age of 15. More recently, however, he had expressed his disgust at his own church. "Today's Protestant church is a joke," he wrote in an online post in 2009. "Priests in jeans who march for Palestine and churches that look like minimalist shopping centres. I am a supporter of an indirect collective conversion of the Protestant church back to the Catholic."

He was a fan of violent video games and former neighbours said he had sometimes been seen in "military-style" clothing. In the pictures that have so far emerged, Breivik appears well dressed, slender and clean shaven, a picture of the young entrepreneur he wanted to be. His businesses, however, were not much of a success, each one being dissolved after a short while after making a loss, until he established his farm business in 2009 and moved out of Oslo.

The purpose of his businesses, as Breivik admitted in one posting, was in any case to support his political activities.

But the man who listed Kafka and George Orwell's 1984 as his favourite books on Facebook made little secret to friends and others who frequented Christian fundamentalist and far-right websites of his racist views. A member of an Oslo Masonic lodge, reportedly a body builder and a hunter with two registered weapons – a Glock pistol and an automatic rifle – it has been Breivik's online profile that has, so far supplied the most public information.

He was a former "youth member" of his country's conservative Progress party between 1999 and 2004, a party he criticised in one posting for embracing "multiculturalism" and "political correctness" rather than taking an "idealistic stand".

Despite that, those who knew him in the party then described him as "calm and quiet", his extremism coming later. However, some who remember him from secondary school suggested that his far-right leanings went back to that period of his life; at least one suggested he had attended neo-Nazi events at the time.

In web postings, Breivik is clear of the nature of his notion of "idealism". He has described himself as a "nationalist" and written offensively of Somali immigrants with "full Norwegian passports" sitting at home on benefit and sending back money to the Islamist al-Shabaab.

One target of Breivik's anger was former Norwegian prime minister Gro Harlem Brundtland, a member of Norway's Labour party, who had spoken to the youth camp on Utøya the day before the massacre.

What seems clear from his online postings was that Breivik increasingly perhaps had a grandiose sense of himself. In one – attacking Brundtland – he predicted that Norwegians would soon no longer be "immune to inflated [political] rhetoric", while in a solitary Twitter post a week before launching his attack, he paraphrased John Stuart Mill to write: "One person with belief is equal to the force of 100,000 who have only interests."

As journalists and police trawled through what Breivik had written, the first glimpses began to emerge that he had corresponded with far-right groups in several countries, including the UK, both to discuss ideological issues and also political strategies, including the creation of a Norwegian far-right nationalist party.

In 2009 he wrote about the need to set up a counter to what he described as "the violent Norwegian Marxist organisations" that he believed terrorised the "politically conservative".

Others, including members of his Masonic lodge and the board-master of Document.no, were also approached by Breivik, who he wanted to help fund his own conservative newspaper, an idea that did not get off the ground.

For the moment, what beliefs motivated him to kill so many people we can only imagine. All we know is that is that Breivik wants to explain his actions to his police interrogators. Then, perhaps, the mystery of what drove Anders Behring Breivik will be unravelled.

Breivik's blogs

On 'hate ideologies'
Islam (ism) has historically led to 300 million deaths. Communism has historically led to 100 million deaths. Nazism has historically led to 6-20 million deaths. ALL hate ideologies should be treated equally.

On the failure of the Progress party
The vast majority of new faces in the Progress party are now politically correct career politicians and not in any way idealists who are willing to take risks and work for idealistic goals.

On Norway's Marxists
In Norway and Sweden extreme Marxist attitudes have become acceptable/everyday while the old-established truths of patriotism and cultural conservatism today are branded as extremism.

On his fear that part of Oslo will eventually have a Muslim majority
There are political forces in Oslo who want mass-subsidised and low-cost 'Islam-blocks' in Oslo West for 'better integration'... If this ever becomes the case, most of Oslo West will move to Bærum (and most will eventually follow).

On his discussion with English Defence League members
I have on some occasions discussed with… the EDL and recommended them to use conscious strategies. The tactics of the EDL is to 'entice' an overreaction from jihad youth/extreme Marxists, something they have succeeded [in] several times already.

His five-year plan
Agenda of the Norwegian cultural conservative movement over next five years [is] therefore: 1. Newspaper with national distribution 2. Work for control of several NGOs 3. Norwegian EDL.

Archer81
07-23-2011, 12:23 PM
You mean Fascist.

Nazis were not socialists, they were right wing racists who were anti communism.



What is about the far right and their inability to understand history??


What abou the far left and their inability to understand names? Nazi = National Socialist.


:Broncos:

epicSocialism4tw
07-23-2011, 12:24 PM
You mean Fascist.

Nazis were not socialists, they were right wing racists who were anti communism.

What is about the far right and their inability to understand history??

"What Mises identified was that private ownership of the means of production existed in name only under the Nazis and that the actual substance of ownership of the means of production resided in the German government. For it was the German government and not the nominal private owners that exercised all of the substantive powers of ownership: it, not the nominal private owners, decided what was to be produced, in what quantity, by what methods, and to whom it was to be distributed, as well as what prices would be charged and what wages would be paid, and what dividends or other income the nominal private owners would be permitted to receive. The position of the alleged private owners, Mises showed, was reduced essentially to that of government pensioners.
De facto government ownership of the means of production, as Mises termed it, was logically implied by such fundamental collectivist principles embraced by the Nazis as that the common good comes before the private good and the individual exists as a means to the ends of the State. If the individual is a means to the ends of the State, so too, of course, is his property. Just as he is owned by the State, his property is also owned by the State.

But what specifically established de facto socialism in Nazi Germany was the introduction of price and wage controls in 1936. These were imposed in response to the inflation of the money supply carried out by the regime from the time of its coming to power in early 1933. The Nazi regime inflated the money supply as the means of financing the vast increase in government spending required by its programs of public works, subsidies, and rearmament. The price and wage controls were imposed in response to the rise in prices that began to result from the inflation."

http://mises.org/daily/1937

National Socialist Party (Nazi Party)

epicSocialism4tw
07-23-2011, 12:28 PM
Yes it is in fact, you obviously can smell your own (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/23/anders-behring-breivik-norway-attacks), i.e. religious fundamentalist terrorists.

Oh wait, that's right it is wrong to judge, no need to mention his christian right-wing fundamentalist beliefs, that's being anti-christian and bigoted.

Did you just equate a "right wing" Norwegian with a "right wing" American? Hilarious!

You do realize that this guy was also a member of a Nazi forum, right? Nazis were a far-left organization.

epicSocialism4tw
07-23-2011, 12:30 PM
What abou the far left and their inability to understand names? Nazi = National Socialist.


:Broncos:

They just try really hard to change names to mean things that they don't really mean.

Like "pro-choice" doesn't actually mean "pro-abortion".

Inkana7
07-23-2011, 12:37 PM
They just try really hard to change names to mean things that they don't really mean.

Like "pro-choice" doesn't actually mean "pro-abortion".

Hahahaha. I thought you were smart dude. Yes, Nazi is short for National Socialist German Worker's Party, but they were very much fascist. Ever take a middle school history class?

Really, I'm starting to worry for your mental health.

El Minion
07-23-2011, 12:38 PM
Did you just equate a "right wing" Norwegian with a "right wing" American? Hilarious!

You do realize that this guy was also a member of a Nazi forum, right? Nazis were a far-left organization.

So his Christian fundamentalism is far left as well? Can't wait for pretzel logic on this one. LOL

DenverBrit
07-23-2011, 12:38 PM
What abou the far left and their inability to understand names? Nazi = National Socialist.


:Broncos:


You make the classic error of assuming that the National Socialist party was in fact socialist. It wasn't.
And WTF has my comment to do with the 'far left'?? It's historically accurate.

Do these people sound like socialists??

Nazism is a politically syncretic variety of fascism, which incorporates policies, tactics and philosophic tenets from left and right-wing politics. Italian fascism and German Nazism reject liberalism, democracy and Marxism.[65] Usually supported by the far right, fascism is historically anti-communist, anti-conservative and anti-parliamentary.[66] The Nazis' rise to power was assisted by the Fascist government of Italy that began to financially subsidize the Nazi party in 1928.[67]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

Inkana7
07-23-2011, 12:39 PM
Did you just equate a "right wing" Norwegian with a "right wing" American? Hilarious!

You do realize that this guy was also a member of a Nazi forum, right? Nazis were a far-left organization.

Really? Is that why they're featured on the Right on political compasses and thought that the Communists (ie, the Far-Left) were the worst political group on earth?

Archer81
07-23-2011, 12:41 PM
You make the classic error of assuming that the National Socialist party was in fact socialist. It wasn't.
And WTF has my comment to do with the 'far left'?? It's historically accurate.

Do these people sound like socialists??



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism


I dont know. When a government controls the people, means of production and establishes price controls...that sounds socialist.

and I apologize for the far left comment. I am a tad hungover.

:Broncos:

rugbythug
07-23-2011, 12:42 PM
Wrong. Socialism, by nature, is communal. In practice, essentially, democratic socialism is paying high taxes for communal property such as healthcare, schools, childcare, and whatever. Its money thats funnel BACK into the community. It's called sharing. Its the first thing you learned in kindergarten. The community cannot function without eachother. It makes sense to keep everyone happy and strong.

You have ZERO clue what democratic socialism is and how it works in practice. ZERO. And to suggest that you need your guns to SHOOT people who are NOT trying to take away your rights and, instead, trying to ensure that every citizen is given a fair foundation to succed? Youre ****ing sick.

Equating taxes with sharing is pretty funny. One of the 2 is voluntary.

Archer81
07-23-2011, 12:43 PM
Really? Is that why they're featured on the Right on political compasses and thought that the Communists (ie, the Far-Left) were the worst political group on earth?


Yet if you list what Stalin did and what Hitler did without putting names on top of the lists, they sound exactly the same...


:Broncos:

rugbythug
07-23-2011, 12:46 PM
The assumption that politics sexist o. One linear line with communists and fascists on each end is a very simistic view that does moons any favors.

rugbythug
07-23-2011, 12:48 PM
So his Christian fundamentalism is far left as well? Can't wait for pretzel logic on this one. LOL

I am a fundamentalist christian conservative. I also own weapons. Am I a murderer.

Br0nc0Buster
07-23-2011, 12:52 PM
The assumption that politics sexist o. One linear line with communists and fascists on each end is a very simistic view that does moons any favors.

translation: kids, stay in school

Archer81
07-23-2011, 12:53 PM
Any idea why the guy thinking murdering 92 people would change the political landscape of Norway?


:Broncos:

rugbythug
07-23-2011, 12:54 PM
translation: kids, stay in school

Your right that was bad. Autocorrected into oblivion

El Minion
07-23-2011, 12:55 PM
I am a fundamentalist christian conservative. I also own weapons. Am I a murderer.

Anders Behring Breivik, is that you?

Houshyamama
07-23-2011, 01:13 PM
Did you just equate a "right wing" Norwegian with a "right wing" American? Hilarious!

You do realize that this guy was also a member of a Nazi forum, right? Nazis were a far-left organization.

You have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about. You almost never do.

DivineBronco
07-23-2011, 01:30 PM
You have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about. You almost never do.

and now faced with mounting numbers that he is actually wrong he will vanish from this thread only to haunt another one
I have said it before and I will say it again, Epic needs to be studied in a lab

DenverBrit
07-23-2011, 02:06 PM
Sometimes an illustration helps.

Epic's claim that the Nazis were far left is beyond comical, it's pathetic.

http://www.mahablog.com/oldsite/mypictures/complexcontinueweb.jpghttp://2.bp.blogspot.com/_RIC3_lNC9G8/TOqZ-fjUbfI/AAAAAAAAAJo/HntRjH694No/s1600/political+pendulum.jpg

TonyR
07-23-2011, 02:34 PM
Yes it is in fact, you obviously can smell your own (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/23/anders-behring-breivik-norway-attacks), i.e. religious fundamentalist terrorists.

Oh wait, that's right it is wrong to judge, no need to mention his christian right-wing fundamentalist beliefs, that's being anti-christian and bigoted.


Wow, this one has to sting a little for epicfail. Here he thought it was either the "Islamists" or the "leftists" but instead it was one of his own.

TonyR
07-23-2011, 02:35 PM
and now faced with mounting numbers that he is actually wrong he will vanish from this thread only to haunt another one
I have said it before and I will say it again, Epic needs to be studied in a lab

He's had a tough week here. You'd think the way he gets pounded around here he'd either be humbled or go away, but neither happens. He just digs in deeper.

Houshyamama
07-23-2011, 04:06 PM
Sometimes an illustration helps.

Epic's claim that the Nazis were far left is beyond comical, it's pathetic.

http://www.mahablog.com/oldsite/mypictures/complexcontinueweb.jpghttp://2.bp.blogspot.com/_RIC3_lNC9G8/TOqZ-fjUbfI/AAAAAAAAAJo/HntRjH694No/s1600/political+pendulum.jpg

Yeah but have you seen where the Nazi's are on the Epic Model? Geez. They're on the left. Stupid head.

Shananahan
07-23-2011, 04:13 PM
WOW, more than 90 people killed, most of them aged 14-20, and you guys turn it into a discussion about socialism... Good job guys, way to keep perspective on things!!!!

.....

Please dont turn this into a political discussion, instead send prayers to the victims and all the people left behind... Thank you...
Good post. More or less what I was going to say.

Shananahan
07-23-2011, 04:16 PM
I guess the dude's opus/manifesto didn't get posted here yet: .pdf (http://www.kevinislaughter.com/wp-content/uploads/2083+-+A+European+Declaration+of+Independence.pdf) or .doc (http://www.2shared.com/file/M-s-2fBD/2083-AEuropeanDeclarationofInd.html).

He'd basically been planning this thing for about eight or nine years.

Agamemnon
07-23-2011, 04:20 PM
Those who see Nazi Germany's state controlled industry as some type of leftist policy are kind of clueless. It's called martial law. No one really knows what Nazi Germany would've looked like in a time of peace, but Hitler loathed communism and advocated private industry in his writings.

To claim that the Nazi's were leftists because the state controlled industry in a time of war, would by necessity mean that every nation involved in WWII was leftist as well, seeing as they all did the same thing. Just look at the U.S. Car factories were converted into factories for planes, tanks, and weapons while citizens were forced to rely on a rationing system for their food. Was the U.S. leftist as well?

Agamemnon
07-23-2011, 04:21 PM
I guess the dude's opus/manifesto didn't get posted here yet: .pdf (http://www.kevinislaughter.com/wp-content/uploads/2083+-+A+European+Declaration+of+Independence.pdf) or .doc (http://www.2shared.com/file/M-s-2fBD/2083-AEuropeanDeclarationofInd.html).

He'd basically been planning this thing for about eight or nine years.

So he's been nuts for quite some time.

barryr
07-23-2011, 06:34 PM
Yes, the murderer was so "right" he was for reportedly for gay rights. Few people are pro everything that the right or left stand for. Obviously this guy can not be all right or all left, which is most people in reality.

Jay3
07-23-2011, 06:46 PM
I guess the dude's opus/manifesto didn't get posted here yet: .pdf (http://www.kevinislaughter.com/wp-content/uploads/2083+-+A+European+Declaration+of+Independence.pdf) or .doc (http://www.2shared.com/file/M-s-2fBD/2083-AEuropeanDeclarationofInd.html).

He'd basically been planning this thing for about eight or nine years.

Does it have anything in there about plotting the massacre? Or do you just mean he started his manifesto 8 or 9 years ago?

Tombstone RJ
07-23-2011, 06:49 PM
Those who see Nazi Germany's state controlled industry as some type of leftist policy are kind of clueless. It's called martial law. No one really knows what Nazi Germany would've looked like in a time of peace, but Hitler loathed communism and advocated private industry in his writings.

To claim that the Nazi's were leftists because the state controlled industry in a time of war, would by necessity mean that every nation involved in WWII was leftist as well, seeing as they all did the same thing. Just look at the U.S. Car factories were converted into factories for planes, tanks, and weapons while citizens were forced to rely on a rationing system for their food. Was the U.S. leftist as well?

I think your confused by the fact that the nazi's forced private industry to play ball or else... while the in the US people were wanting to work, private industry was tasked for building the industry of war, it absolutely worked, and then private industry went back to civi work via the fee market.

Shananahan
07-23-2011, 06:54 PM
Does it have anything in there about plotting the massacre? Or do you just mean he started his manifesto 8 or 9 years ago?
I mean he'd been plotting the massacre for years, and goes into detail about how to finance it, how make it happen, how people will react, etc. Apparently he viewed it as his backup plan to an underground theological uprising he couldn't finance. It's pretty fascinating/horrifying.

Jay3
07-23-2011, 06:55 PM
I mean he'd been plotting the massacre for years, and goes into detail about how to finance it, how make it happen, how people will react, etc. Apparently he viewed it as his backup plan to an underground theological uprising he couldn't finance. It's pretty fascinating/horrifying.

How does he think it will advance his cause?

This has got me pretty freaked out.

Shananahan
07-23-2011, 07:15 PM
How does he think it will advance his cause?

This has got me pretty freaked out.
I skimmed through it earlier, it's about 1,500 pages. Best I could come up with is he believes his actions will embolden and mobilize others who feel similarly into their own actions. There are detailed portions about weapons and how to acquire them, the best methods for getting yourself into shape, etc. He keeps referring to his 'operation' and the theoretical operation of the reader.

Like:
It’s time for us, the European revolutionary patriots, to remember our prowess as warriors and to make sure our enemies remember it as well. Considering the fact that a Justiciar Knight is armed with not only a primary and secondary weapon but melee weapons as well, we will have little use for the majority of Muai Thai techniques (although knowledge and experience with basic techniques can be useful). Even if a Justiciar Knight wanted to, he would be physically unable to use many of these techniques due to the weight of the gear he carries and the resulting movement limitations.

I mean, I just grabbed that portion off of a part where he's talking about martial arts training. The guy was obviously crazy but he wasn't stupid. You can see why this thing took nine years to write and create, it's ridiculously in-depth and cited, supported with all kinds of statistics, a glossary, etc.

Shananahan
07-23-2011, 07:20 PM
Apparently this guy read the entire thing (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/07/23/what_did_the_oslo_killer_want) and writes more about what the guy envisioned. He posted excerpts and discussed it on his twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/blakehounshell) page.


Edit: Here's a very, very condensed version: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1UPMWXTEq9DqhcWBXXRZhMwqDuYsiMahzVIpeK6s9-j0&ndplr=1&pli=1

Al Wilson
07-23-2011, 07:24 PM
So this fella kills 90 people yet the attack is called 'mass murder'. What's the difference between his act and the islamic terrorists' act? He's a terrorist as well.

Tombstone RJ
07-23-2011, 08:10 PM
So this fella kills 90 people yet the attack is called 'mass murder'. What's the difference between his act and the islamic terrorists' act? He's a terrorist as well.

he is a terrorist...

misturanderson
07-23-2011, 08:47 PM
So this fella kills 90 people yet the attack is called 'mass murder'. What's the difference between his act and the islamic terrorists' act? He's a terrorist as well.

Pretty sure he's going on trial for terrorism charges.

Archer81
07-23-2011, 09:29 PM
Those who see Nazi Germany's state controlled industry as some type of leftist policy are kind of clueless. It's called martial law. No one really knows what Nazi Germany would've looked like in a time of peace, but Hitler loathed communism and advocated private industry in his writings.

To claim that the Nazi's were leftists because the state controlled industry in a time of war, would by necessity mean that every nation involved in WWII was leftist as well, seeing as they all did the same thing. Just look at the U.S. Car factories were converted into factories for planes, tanks, and weapons while citizens were forced to rely on a rationing system for their food. Was the U.S. leftist as well?


This post is pure comedy. We know exactly what Germany under Hitler at peace looked like. Goverment control of the people AND enterprise to rearm. That would not have changed if Germany won the war. They would have used the interm peace after beating the USSR and the UK to prepare for war with the Americans.

The second paragraph cannot be a serious argument.

:Broncos:

fdf
07-23-2011, 11:57 PM
Really? Is that why they're featured on the Right on political compasses and thought that the Communists (ie, the Far-Left) were the worst political group on earth?

Actually, the two groups hated each other in pre-war Germany because they competed for the same group of members. There was a lot of back and forth of membership between the two groups.

I've always thought the "far-right"=Nazis and "far-left"=Communists distinction is meaningless. Both are variants of socialism, where a group of rulers controls the means of production. Communism does it by direct ownership. Fascism does it by controlling the folks who ostensibly own the means of production. The goal in both is to eliminate private ownership as a meaningful competitor for power with an all powerful state. In both cases, the rulers rule in the "name of the people" or some such rhetorical nonsense. In reality, human nature means they rule for themselves, a lot of people die, and all the people (except the rulers and their buds) get the shaft.

Jay3
07-24-2011, 04:15 AM
Communists and fascists hated each other because they were close variants. Fascists were nationalists, believing the socialist dream could be carried out within a nation, preserving its identity and people. Communists believed in worldwide worker revolution, and each land would take orders from the central worker planning committees (the Soviets).

Neither believed in the fundamental dignity of the individual, the right to be free from interference by the government, limited government, the protection of property rights, etc.

They were not "right" and "left" in the sense of being to our right, and our left. They were both to the left of almost all Americans.

Agamemnon
07-24-2011, 05:06 AM
This post is pure comedy. We know exactly what Germany under Hitler at peace looked like. Goverment control of the people AND enterprise to rearm. That would not have changed if Germany won the war. They would have used the interm peace after beating the USSR and the UK to prepare for war with the Americans.

The second paragraph cannot be a serious argument.

:Broncos:

What is it with people demeaning others on this site rather simply posting their views? It's kind of sad.

And if you think actively preparing to invade the rest of Europe is a time of peace I think we have very different ideas of what that term means.

Agamemnon
07-24-2011, 05:15 AM
Communists and fascists hated each other because they were close variants. Fascists were nationalists, believing the socialist dream could be carried out within a nation, preserving its identity and people. Communists believed in worldwide worker revolution, and each land would take orders from the central worker planning committees (the Soviets).

Neither believed in the fundamental dignity of the individual, the right to be free from interference by the government, limited government, the protection of property rights, etc.

They were not "right" and "left" in the sense of being to our right, and our left. They were both to the left of almost all Americans.

In other words they were both authoritarian regimes (as opposed to democracies or anarchist collectives for instance). However political scientists universally classify fascism on the right side of the left/right axis. Unfortunately the authoritarian/libertarian axis is often overlooked in these discussions so that everything boils down to "left vs. right". The truth is that not all people who are on the left or the right are the same, and in fact sometimes they are violently opposed to each other. Just look at the conflicts between anarchists and Marxists in the early 20th century (both classified as radically left).

TailgateNut
07-24-2011, 05:20 AM
ah, so a neo-nazi did this?


According to the news this morning he was a self professed "right wing", "conservative", "religious" muslim hater.


Hmmm, is epic Norwegian?

TailgateNut
07-24-2011, 05:23 AM
Many muslims have moved into Norway the last decade or so, just as happened to much of Europe. So not hard to believe some terrorists also got into Norway. Apparently some Iraqi cleric living in Norway promised bombings for some court ruling against him and Norway also has troops in the ME someplace, so they I am sure makes them a target too. It will be interesting to see how Norway reacts and if they cater to terrorism or fight it.


Apparently you and the dramallama are out in right field with your attempts to frame this guy as muslim. He actually hated muslims and the mass migrations of muslims to Norway.

He was one of your ilk. Religious, conservative nutcase.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
07-24-2011, 05:29 AM
Sometimes an illustration helps.

Epic's claim that the Nazis were far left is beyond comical, it's pathetic.

http://www.mahablog.com/oldsite/mypictures/complexcontinueweb.jpghttp://2.bp.blogspot.com/_RIC3_lNC9G8/TOqZ-fjUbfI/AAAAAAAAAJo/HntRjH694No/s1600/political+pendulum.jpg

That's a terrible graph. Use this one.


http://www.nolanchart.com/survey.php

TailgateNut
07-24-2011, 05:35 AM
Maximum penalty for this in Norway is 21 yrs in the slammer?? WTF?

Garcia Bronco
07-24-2011, 05:36 AM
Lol...the National Socialist weren't socialists. Okay. The Nazi's started out as socialists. That's how they sold an economically depressed Germany on their bull****. Then after they gained power they started imprisoning Jews and Poles and Chechs and the people of Norway and so on... and using them as slaves.

Their bull**** ended up killing 40 million people. Enough.

TheReverend
07-24-2011, 06:20 AM
Welp, sorry Muslims!

Going to accuse you immediately again following the next attack though

That One Guy
07-24-2011, 06:47 AM
Welp, sorry Muslims!

Going to accuse you immediately again following the next attack though

LOL

They probably can't go two in a row without some involvement so you should be good for the next one.

barryr
07-24-2011, 07:01 AM
Apparently you and the dramallama are out in right field with your attempts to frame this guy as muslim. He actually hated muslims and the mass migrations of muslims to Norway.

He was one of your ilk. Religious, conservative nutcase.

LOL, I am not the one with "nut" in my name, which suits you very well :clown:

barryr
07-24-2011, 07:12 AM
I wonder how long it will take liberals to blame Palin or some other republican for the shooting in Norway of all places? It is deemed wrong to blame muslims despite the fact they are responsible for the overwhelming majority of such murder, but throwing out republican politician names will be appropriate though. Great sense.

DenverBrit
07-24-2011, 07:38 AM
Lol...the National Socialist weren't socialists. Okay. The Nazi's started out as socialists. That's how they sold an economically depressed Germany on their bull****. Then after they gained power they started imprisoning Jews and Poles and Chechs and the people of Norway and so on... and using them as slaves.

Their bull**** ended up killing 40 million people. Enough.

Correct. Though I don't see the joke.

DenverBrit
07-24-2011, 07:41 AM
I wonder how long it will take liberals to blame Palin or some other republican for the shooting in Norway of all places? It is deemed wrong to blame muslims despite the fact they are responsible for the overwhelming majority of such murder, but throwing out republican politician names will be appropriate though. Great sense.
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSpLD8Bh9XOZlodk8Tsgl0I1gzs_3nPJ g-CbWgu4iPpmtEe7atJ

Somebody, let the poodle out before it makes another mess.

barryr
07-24-2011, 08:30 AM
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSpLD8Bh9XOZlodk8Tsgl0I1gzs_3nPJ g-CbWgu4iPpmtEe7atJ

Somebody, let the poodle out before it makes another mess.

Wow, so clever for a liberal who professes to be middle of the road yet only defends democrats and liberal policies. Fooling nobody England.

DenverBrit
07-24-2011, 08:38 AM
Wow, so clever for a liberal who professes to be middle of the road yet only defends democrats and liberal policies. Fooling nobody England.

Your post was another of your 'lefty' 'righty' rants and nothing more than sophomoric nonsense.

Who exactly was I defending? Idiot.

Obushma
07-24-2011, 09:44 AM
That's a terrible graph. Use this one.


http://www.nolanchart.com/survey.php

That political chart that Brit threw up is almost as ****ty as the linear line model. I never knew violence was a political philosophy, created by an authoritarian no doubt.

Shananahan
07-24-2011, 09:50 AM
Man, I just don't understand how some of your brains work (barryr, etc). You've got a horrible tragedy, 90+ people shot to death and most of them teenagers, the worst killing spree in recorded history, a brilliantly deranged lunatic with a 1,500-page manifesto and all kinds of relevant topics regarding the events of the past two days yet some of you idiots want to point fingers over political ideologies, argue semantics over historical politics and throw out theoretical scenarios which would make whatever polarized political enemy you hate look bad.

Take it somewhere else.

DenverBrit
07-24-2011, 10:47 AM
That political chart that Brit threw up is almost as ****ty as the linear line model. I never knew violence was a political philosophy, created by an authoritarian no doubt.

And yet it is accurate. If you think Nazis were 'socialists', you're wrong.

In 1933, the Nazis opened their first concentration camp, Dachau. It was to house the Nazi's political opponents: the Left, Socialists, Communists and anyone else who opposed their policies.

United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
During the first year, the camp held about 4,800 prisoners. Initially the internees consisted primarily of German Communists, Social Democrats, trade unionists, and other political opponents of the Nazi regime. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005214
Hitler and the Nazis also hated German leftists because of their resistance to Nazi racism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims#Political_criteria

Obushma
07-24-2011, 11:02 AM
And yet it is accurate. If you think Nazis were 'socialists', you're wrong.

In 1933, the Nazis opened their first concentration camp, Dachau. It was to house the Nazi's political opponents: the Left, Socialists, Communists and anyone else who opposed their policies.

United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005214

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims#Political_criteria

Yeah, tight, thanks for the story, but your political chart and pendulum are ****. Nazis were Authoritarian Right.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
07-24-2011, 11:07 AM
And yet it is accurate. If you think Nazis were 'socialists', you're wrong.

In 1933, the Nazis opened their first concentration camp, Dachau. It was to house the Nazi's political opponents: the Left, Socialists, Communists and anyone else who opposed their policies.

United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005214

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims#Political_criteria

Your chart is wrong. It has Communism and Fascism sitting on opposite sides of each other and you put conservatism with Fascism. In reality Communism and Fascism are one and the same, because they are both about authoritative control. Conservatism and Libertarianism is most related to Anarchy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

Libertarianism is the political philosophy that holds individual liberty as the organizing principle of society. Libertarianism includes diverse beliefs, all advocating minimization of the state and sharing the goal of maximizing individual liberty and political freedom.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism#Libertarian_conservatism

Libertarian conservatism describes certain political ideologies within the United States and Canada which combine libertarian economic issues with aspects of conservatism. Its five main branches are Constitutionalism, paleolibertarianism, neolibertarianism, small government conservatism and Christian libertarianism. They generally differ from paleoconservatives, in that they are in favor of more personal and economic freedom.

Agorists such as Samuel Edward Konkin III labeled libertarian conservatism right-libertarianism.[34][35]

In contrast to paleoconservatives, libertarian conservatives support strict laissez-faire policies such as free trade, opposition to any national bank and opposition to business regulations. They are vehemently opposed to environmental regulations, corporate welfare, subsidies, and other areas of economic intervention. Many of them have views in accord to Ludwig von Mises.[citation needed] However, many of them oppose abortion, as they see it as a positive liberty and violates the non-aggression principle because abortion is aggression towards the fetus.[36]



Stop listening to what the media has been tellingyou about conservatives and libertarianist.

Inkana7
07-24-2011, 11:22 AM
Your chart is wrong. It has Communism and Fascism sitting on opposite sides of each other and you put conservatism with Fascism. In reality Communism and Fascism are one and the same, because they are both about authoritative control. Conservatism and Libertarianism is most related to Anarchy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism#Libertarian_conservatism



Stop listening to what the media has been tellingyou about conservatives and libertarianist.

God you are so wrong.

Inkana7
07-24-2011, 11:24 AM
Communists and fascists hated each other because they were close variants. Fascists were nationalists, believing the socialist dream could be carried out within a nation, preserving its identity and people. Communists believed in worldwide worker revolution, and each land would take orders from the central worker planning committees (the Soviets).

Neither believed in the fundamental dignity of the individual, the right to be free from interference by the government, limited government, the protection of property rights, etc.

They were not "right" and "left" in the sense of being to our right, and our left. They were both to the left of almost all Americans.

False. I've read interviews with countless Nazis, and they all said they loathed Communism because it took away the value of the individual.

DenverBrit
07-24-2011, 11:28 AM
Yeah, tight, thanks for the story, but your political chart and pendulum are ****. Nazis were Authoritarian Right.

They are not MY charts. Post a chart that illustrates your point.

Let's see what you've got.

DenverBrit
07-24-2011, 11:30 AM
Your chart is wrong. It has Communism and Fascism sitting on opposite sides of each other and you put conservatism with Fascism. In reality Communism and Fascism are one and the same, because they are both about authoritative control. Conservatism and Libertarianism is most related to Anarchy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism#Libertarian_conservatism



Stop listening to what the media has been tellingyou about conservatives and libertarianist.


Hilarious!

bronco militia
07-24-2011, 04:32 PM
Welp, sorry Muslims!

Going to accuse you immediately again following the next attack though

yeah...the assholes were tripping overthemselves to claim responsibility...

Popcorn Sutton
07-24-2011, 07:45 PM
Yes, the majority of political thought is left of libertarianism, but the majority of polical thought is right of center.

You are NOT a Libertarian with your move in and nation build the middle east stance. Sorry Bushie...

barryr
07-24-2011, 08:05 PM
Now with more release of this nuts manifesto, he states to be a Darwin follower and doubts there is a God and he is for gay rights. They also can see he copied his manifesto straight from what the Unabomber wrote to explain his killing, replacing some words here and there and the Unabomber was more a leftist than anything else. But somehow some try to weakly tie this guy to the "religious right?" Stupid! Again, the guy is nuts and he obviously does not fit totally one "side" or the other.

Shananahan
07-24-2011, 08:32 PM
Now with more release of this nuts manifesto, he states to be a Darwin follower and doubts there is a God and he is for gay rights. They also can see he copied his manifesto straight from what the Unabomber wrote to explain his killing, replacing some words here and there and the Unabomber was more a leftist than anything else. But somehow some try to weakly tie this guy to the "religious right?" Stupid! Again, the guy is nuts and he obviously does not fit totally one "side" or the other.
I've been morbidly going through this guy's manifesto for the past couple days since it went online, and posts like this make it pretty clear you haven't looked at it or read much of anything about it beyond the recent article posted about his adoption/adaption of the Unabomber's own manifesto. Hell, I'm not even sure you read that article, seeing as how what he 'copied' was a small portion of the 1,500 pages and even then he merely borrowed argument structures, not the exact arguments. The 'religious right' part comes from the guy's claim that while he is not religious, he would like to see a revival of Christianity in Europe (due to several things, but mainly his dislike for fanatical Islam).

Not to mention, if you read one of the articles you just cited as proof of knowing what you're talking about you would realize that some of the proof you tried to use was contradicted by the article.

The 'Unabomber was more a leftist than anything else', right? Well, here's one of the portions the Norway guy borrowed:
For instance, Kaczynski wrote: "One of the most widespread manifestations of the craziness of our world is leftism, so a discussion of the psychology of leftism can serve as an introduction to the discussion of the problems of modern society in general."

I told myself I wasn't going to participate in this thread anymore, but Jesus Christ, you're a complete moron.

Houshyamama
07-24-2011, 08:39 PM
I've been morbidly going through this guy's manifesto for the past couple days since it went online, and posts like this make it pretty clear you haven't looked at it or read much of anything about it beyond the recent article posted about his adoption/adaption of the Unabomber's own manifesto. Hell, I'm not even sure you read that article, seeing as how what he 'copied' was a small portion of the 1,500 pages and even then he merely borrowed argument structures, not the exact arguments. The 'religious right' part comes from the guy's claim that while he is not religious, he would like to see a revival of Christianity in Europe (due to several things, but mainly his dislike for fanatical Islam).

Not to mention, if you read one of the articles you just cited as proof of knowing what you're talking about you would realize that some of the proof you tried to use was contradicted by the article.

The 'Unabomber was more a leftist than anything else', right? Well, here's one of the portions the Norway guy borrowed:


I told myself I wasn't going to participate in this thread anymore, but Jesus Christ, you're a complete moron.

Don't talk to me like that, you will address me as Your Lord and Savior.

Shananahan
07-24-2011, 08:52 PM
It just blows my mind that somebody could be so brainwashed and retarded that their first reaction to learning about this tragedy and the guy behind it would be, "Man, I sure hope he didn't share some of the same beliefs I have or agree with me politically! I wonder how I can make it seem like he's a part of an opposing viewpoint?"

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
07-24-2011, 10:29 PM
http://www.fdfnc.org/2011/07/24/conservative-vs-liberal-beliefs/

LIBERALS - believe in government action to achieve equal opportunity and equality for all. It is the duty of the government to alleviate social ills and to protect civil liberties and individual and human rights. Believe the role of the government should be to guarantee that no one is in need.Liberal policies generally emphasize the need for the government to solve problems.

CONSERVATIVES - believe in personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional American values and a strong national defense. Believe the role of government should be to provide people the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals.Conservative policies generally emphasize empowerment of the individual to solve problems.

Shananahan
07-24-2011, 11:27 PM
If anybody still reading this thread even cares, here is a pretty crazy blog update written by one of the would-be-victims on the island: http://prableen.origo.no/-/bulletin/show/672218_helvete-paa-utoeya

You'll have to use your browser to translate it to English, but it's worth looking at.

Broncos_OTM
07-25-2011, 12:57 AM
This post is pure comedy. We know exactly what Germany under Hitler at peace looked like. Goverment control of the people AND enterprise to rearm. That would not have changed if Germany won the war. They would have used the interm peace after beating the USSR and the UK to prepare for war with the Americans.

The second paragraph cannot be a serious argument.

:Broncos:

Its funny also cause Hitler was in power pre 1939. I however am not to sure about war with America had he won. And had America stayed Neutral through out it.

Archer81
07-25-2011, 02:27 AM
Its funny also cause Hitler was in power pre 1939. I however am not to sure about war with America had he won. And had America stayed Neutral through out it.


Norway and Belgium were neutral. It didnt matter. And we have to avoid looking at the what ifs through what we know happened. If the US had remained neutral, no massive rearmament, no lend lease, 14 million men are not under arms, no atomic bomb. You have to worry about German control of the French fleet, combined with what they would have forced the Brits to give up. Then you have to consider Hitler's "wonder weapons" like missiles and jet engined aircraft. You also have to worry about British, French and Belgian colonies that may have become german controlled. German bases in the carribean and south America. And speaking of South America, you have to watch the sizeable german minorities in Brazil and Argentina who may be used as pawns when the Germans inevitably use "protecting ethnic germans" schtick.

So you have a massive new german navy using jet fighters and bombers when the US would be using propeller planes or just developing jet engines themselves. You have the germans capable of projecting power anywhere in the world because of their navy. That navy would have a launching off point anywhere from the Belgian Congo to the Artic circle. If the Germans are still friendly with the Japanese you then have to worry about Japanese aggression in the pacific plus protecting the Pac coast.

What you end up with is a US capable of fighting for a long time, but ultimately alone in the world against the Nazis and Japanese with no other ally to bring in against them. You would have to consider any conflict would not take place "over there" but right here with little to no ability to hit the Germans or Japanese at home. If Hitler would have won, the world would have been a much darker place for any remaining free people.

:Broncos:

Kaylore
07-25-2011, 06:47 AM
Hindsight is 20/20, but we should have known this wasn't Islamic terrorists because of how effective the attack was.

DenverBrit
07-25-2011, 07:05 AM
Norway and Belgium were neutral. It didnt matter. And we have to avoid looking at the what ifs through what we know happened. If the US had remained neutral, no massive rearmament, no lend lease, 14 million men are not under arms, no atomic bomb. You have to worry about German control of the French fleet, combined with what they would have forced the Brits to give up. Then you have to consider Hitler's "wonder weapons" like missiles and jet engined aircraft. You also have to worry about British, French and Belgian colonies that may have become german controlled. German bases in the carribean and south America. And speaking of South America, you have to watch the sizeable german minorities in Brazil and Argentina who may be used as pawns when the Germans inevitably use "protecting ethnic germans" schtick.

So you have a massive new german navy using jet fighters and bombers when the US would be using propeller planes or just developing jet engines themselves. You have the germans capable of projecting power anywhere in the world because of their navy. That navy would have a launching off point anywhere from the Belgian Congo to the Artic circle. If the Germans are still friendly with the Japanese you then have to worry about Japanese aggression in the pacific plus protecting the Pac coast.

What you end up with is a US capable of fighting for a long time, but ultimately alone in the world against the Nazis and Japanese with no other ally to bring in against them. You would have to consider any conflict would not take place "over there" but right here with little to no ability to hit the Germans or Japanese at home. If Hitler would have won, the world would have been a much darker place for any remaining free people.

:Broncos:

The French fleet was crippled by the RN and mostly useless before the US entered the war.' You're also forgetting the Russians who were destroying German armies en-masse. Both Britain and the US would have continued to supply the Russians. There are many scenarios and no certainty that the Nazis would have prevailed. More likely a stalemate until technology tipped the balance.

DenverBrit
07-25-2011, 07:06 AM
Hindsight is 20/20, but we should have known this wasn't Islamic terrorists because of how effective the attack was.

911, Madrid, London were all chillingly effective.

Old Dude
07-25-2011, 07:33 AM
I've spent the last four days, camping, hiking and white water rafting. Nowhere near a radio or PC. Can someone give me the Cliff's Notes version of what happened?

That One Guy
07-25-2011, 07:37 AM
I've spent the last four days, camping, hiking and white water rafting. Nowhere near a radio or PC. Can someone give me the Cliff's Notes version of what happened?

Guy in Norway discovered radicalism in the last 3 years and now hates immigrants and anyone who sympathizes with them. Decided he would lead a violent revolution by attacking the leftist party in charge. Bought 6 tons of fertilizer from a store, store told cops but...? He took at least one ton, mixed it with fuel, put it in a box truck and parked it next to the building where the Norwegian PM works. After that, he went to an island where a summer camp was going for kids interested in politics or whatnot and run by the leftist party that he previously attacked. He was dressed like a policeman and would lure the kids to him and then open fire on them. After 50 minutes, police knew what was happening but couldn't get a boat or helicopter to get to the island. The shooter continued to shoot people for 90+ minutes until the cops finally made it and he surrendered. Currently 93 people killed between both locations with some still missing.

Cito Pelon
07-25-2011, 09:43 AM
As far as I'm concerned, the Far Left and the Far Right can go hump themselves.

Us middle of the road people will throw you a bone now and then, but don't try to dominate us with your whacko philosophies.

Haroldthebarrel
07-25-2011, 09:48 AM
I am sorry but why do you feel it more important to discuss political semantics in light of this tragedy?

This is our 9-11. I will not say more out of fear of morallizing.

DenverBrit
07-25-2011, 09:53 AM
I am sorry but why do you feel it more important to discuss political semantics in light of this tragedy?

This is our 9-11. I will not say more out of fear of morallizing.

You're exactly right.

My apologies for contributing off topic and my condolences for the tragic loss.

We should all know better.

Cito Pelon
07-25-2011, 10:15 AM
I am sorry but why do you feel it more important to discuss political semantics in light of this tragedy?

This is our 9-11. I will not say more out of fear of morallizing.

My greatest sympathies to you. I certainly hope something good comes out of this tragedy.

That One Guy
07-25-2011, 11:23 AM
I am sorry but why do you feel it more important to discuss political semantics in light of this tragedy?

This is our 9-11. I will not say more out of fear of morallizing.

Nobody is cheering anything. Nobody is supporting this clown for what he did. We all agree it's terrible and tragic.

Now GTFO and leave us to our discussion. The world didn't stop when three thousand of ours died and won't because less than 100 of yours did either.

That One Guy
07-25-2011, 11:24 AM
Oh, and has been said, this is your OKC bombing not 9/11.

MplsBronco
07-25-2011, 11:28 AM
Nobody is cheering anything. Nobody is supporting this clown for what he did. We all agree it's terrible and tragic.

Now GTFO and leave us to our discussion. The world didn't stop when three thousand of ours died and won't because less than 100 of yours did either.

Wow, you represent all that is wrong with our country. You are scum.

Haroldthebarrel
07-25-2011, 11:33 AM
Nobody is cheering anything. Nobody is supporting this clown for what he did. We all agree it's terrible and tragic.

Now GTFO and leave us to our discussion. The world didn't stop when three thousand of ours died and won't because less than 100 of yours did either.

I stand by my words, you may stand by yours.