Theology

[Boomhauer]

Almost all religions have lies and fallacies. Thought we could debate some of them. Thread inspired by...
@Epic - ...But I am sure you being a christain and all makes the lying ok

I might have to dust off my copy of The Age of Reason, Thomas Paine to give some of his exact references, but two inaccuracies off the top of my head are; a) The four Apostles (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) all gave different recounts of what was written on Christ's cross. Were they not there, or were their writings changed? b) The Old Testament, shared in the Torah, is supposed to be the writings of Moses, but is in the third person and Moses predated the Hebrew language.

Another problem is the idea of an omnipotent God, while also describing an antagonist. Even among fire-n-brimstone religions. If God is omnipotent, shouldn't this antagonist be just an aspect, like forgiveness, vengeance, love, wrath, etc? ie; In the book of Genesis, God coexisted with the serpent and allowed him to exist after banishment.

If there is one eternal God, speaking to all mankind throughout the ages, why are there so many different religions and how can any of them declare themselves 'correct' and others 'false'? Secondly, how can some testaments be selected as the 'Word of God', while others are thrown out - and why would anyone need to read that specific 'Word of God' if God speaks to everyone individually who will listen?

........That should be enough to get the stew started........

[snowspot66]

Don't have time to say much (and don't want to get in a pissing match) but just thought I would point out that the Bible, properly translated, never makes the claim that God is omnipotent. People just make that assumption on their own. In fact we've invented quite a bit of stuff that doesn't actually exist in the Bible. Reading is to much effort I guess.

[alkemical]

Just go find the religious threads already here on the OM -

[Boomhauer]

b) The Old Testament, shared in the Torah, is supposed to be the writings of Moses, but is in the third person and Moses predated the Hebrew language.

Should clarify this. The Hebrew language existed at the time of Moses, but not in written form. It wasn't until a couple hundred years after he died that 'his' testament could have been written. The same is true of the Prophet Muhammad and his testament, the Quran, which was memorized and passed on as near-poetry before being put into text.

While the manner in which the lessons, words and stories of the Quran was passed on was highly accurate, there is no mention in either the Torah or Old Testament that its contents are merely unreliable word-of-mouth of what may have occurred during the time of Moses. For that reason, the majority of Judaism is hearsay and highly suspect.

[Boomhauer]

just thought I would point out that the Bible... never makes the claim that God is omnipotent. People just make that assumption on their own...

What you call an assumption that God/a figure is omnipotent is a fundamental belief of all major religions. Descriptions and characteristics vary, but even polytheistic, pantheist or paganist religions have a central omnipotent figure or fundamental.

[snowspot66]

What you call an assumption that God/a figure is omnipotent is a fundamental belief of all major religions. Descriptions and characteristics vary, but even polytheistic, pantheist or paganist religions have a central omnipotent figure or fundamental.

A central deity of great strength and above all is quite common. No argument there. However even if they are ascribed I would argue they often fail to display the traits of true omnipotence, omniscience, or omnipresence. Instead they often display human flaws and characteristics.

Of course if you are arguing that what people believe better defines a religion as opposed to what the actual text or story says then you could make a solid argument that an omnipotent deity is central to most religions. If most people assume a god or goddess to have those traits then it makes it a part of that religion even if it creates a contradiction.

[Spider]

A central deity of great strength and above all is quite common. No argument there. However even if they are ascribed I would argue they often fail to display the traits of true omnipotence, omniscience, or omnipresence. Instead they often display human flaws and characteristics.

Of course if you are arguing that what people believe better defines a religion as opposed to what the actual text or story says then you could make a solid argument that an omnipotent deity is central to most religions. If most people assume a god or goddess to have those traits then it makes it a part of that religion even if it creates a contradiction.

u sure like the prefix omni dont ya

[DenverBrit]

There have been thousands of 'gods' 'and deities' in recorded history, currently, there are supposedly 43 belief systems.

Take your pick. ;D


The Big Religion Chart

http://www.religionfacts.com/big_religion_chart.htm

[Boomhauer]

A central deity of great strength and above all is quite common. No argument there. ...

There is difference in how some religions explain an antagonistic force separate from the divine. In polytheistic Hinduism, there is an omnipotent figure with multiple lower-order figures. Some of these are antagonistic, but all are considered aspects of the whole, like pagans may consider seasons of the year, but the year the omnipotent whole. In Taoism, the yin yang represents opposing forces in harmonic balance that together make an omnipotent whole.

But than what is the Devil, or Lucifer, in western beliefs? Who are the damned, what makes them damned and why are they damned? I mentioned the dogma of God allowed the serpent to exist and did nothing to prevent Adam and Eve from bring harm to themselves. Also in dogma, Lucifer started an uprising in heaven and God did not strike him down for sedition, but let Angels make the mistake of following and then brought judgement upon them. God also could have stopped Lot's wife, or the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, from their actions.

In western beliefs, it seems God warns and also allows people (and angels) to make mistakes and then pay for their actions. If God is omnipotent, he must have also created the temptation and ability to make those mistakes. If it's not God's doing, he is not omnipotent. If God is omnipotent, what purpose or goal is achieved by allowing people to destroy themselves or their societies? Is that the actions of a sick bastard, tough love parenting, hard rules of existence that breeds evolution, or the nudge of intelligent design to progress mankind?

[Boomhauer]

Of course if you are arguing that what people believe better defines a religion as opposed to what the actual text or story says ...

That distinction is very important. Using politics (as there are an abundance of goose steppers in WRP) as an analogy, some strongly hold ideals and beliefs they associate with America, Democrats or Republicans, but there are far too many that are obedient serfs to the institutions of America or the Demo and Repub Parties. None greater than within the clandestine community. That same mistake is often made in religion where people can lose sight of abiding by and serving their beliefs, and instead serve the institution.

In that respect, there is no difference in thought between a Progressive atheist, a biblical literalist, a CO2 hysteric, an Orthodox Jew, a Jihadist or a GOP conservative. They all have lost site of the forest for the trees and become slaves to system rather than pursuers of ideals. In short, they all lost their minds and became cogs.

But to return to my previous post; What is the reason God lets, or causes, that to happen? Is it thinning the heard to watch only fools become cogs and than die in masse as a machine? Is survival of the wisest that remain the next step after survival of the smartest?

[alkemical]

All ism's = B.S. (belief systems).

Personally, i suspect DNA might be "G*d".

[Boomhauer]

Personally, i suspect DNA might be "G*d".

I disagree with that, as the concept of nature(DNA)/nurture fails to account for will, but am interested in your reasoning.

[alkemical]

I disagree with that, as the concept of nature(DNA)/nurture fails to account for will, but am interested in your reasoning.

I won't deny about "imprinting", when it comes to animals (I do include people in this).

But also, our job is to make more DNA. We are probably much more "scripted" biologically speaking, than we care to realize. Thus, our "will" - partially imprinted, but very much hardwired.

Anything with DNA, it's job is to make more DNA.

there's much more to this than a few quick points - I mean - the Sufi's were along the same lines. Anything dealing with "kundalini energy" is trying to unlock more "conscious" effort over "your scripting".

It's pretty interesting.

[TonyR]

No worries, epicfail should be around any moment to tell us all how it works.

[Requiem]

I see religion as an amalgamation of myth, human works, human thoughts all bound together in order to try allow people to make sense of the world around them -- or at least help guide them through their life. I don't see the work(s) as factual, but actually very interesting.

The intertwining of major religions and even past religions gone by the wayside is intriguing to the say the least, and allows for a lot of discussion to be brought about regarding our origins and humanity in general. I'm not a religious person at all, more spiritual -- but find the works of the Bible, Qu'ran, etc. to be absolutely fascinating.

[Boomhauer]

Willing the world = The teachings of Lucifer, resulting in destruction
Some believe that the cumulation of human thought is what defines existence, and therefore mankind is the creation of God. Further extrapolations deem that one person's will, or the combination of a group, can alter existence and play-God to a degree. If that is true, prior to Copernicus and Galileo the Earth was the center of the solar system/Universe and they changed everything.

Philosophy is the study of thought and Theology how metaphysics is used to describe existence - explained by Requim:
I see religion as an amalgamation of myth, human works, human thoughts all bound together in order to try allow people to make sense of the world around them -- or at least help guide them through their life. I don't see the work(s) as factual, but actually very interesting...
Christian dogma teaches a story of how some chose to play-God, rather than abide by existence created by God, to their destruction. In similar fashion, making yourself believe falsities are true is intentional delusion, ignorance and will only result in your destruction by failing to acknowledge the truth around you. ie: despite how strongly one believes they can fly, jumping off a cliff reveals the truth of existence over will.

While those that believe they can "will the world" may not know the story of Lucifer and the exile of angels, or may not care if they do, the fact of guaranteed failure from that belief remains true and its lesson can be repeated in non-theologic stories or examples.

[alkemical]

That's incorrect. It's accessing and developing preexisting potential - none of which has to do with DNA

For you, sure.

[wolverine]

Almost all religions have lies and fallacies. Thought we could debate some of them. Thread inspired by...

I might have to dust off my copy of The Age of Reason, Thomas Paine to give some of his exact references, but two inaccuracies off the top of my head are; a) The four Apostles (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) all gave different recounts of what was written on Christ's cross. Were they not there, or were their writings changed? b) The Old Testament, shared in the Torah, is supposed to be the writings of Moses, but is in the third person and Moses predated the Hebrew language.

........That should be enough to get the stew started........

Forget the minutiae. Mathew Mark blah blah blah.

The universe is 14 billion years old.
The earth is 4 billion years old.
Dinosaurs roamed the earth 200 milliion years ago.
Humans first appeared about 100 thousand years ago.

Square that aware with the story of creation in the bible -- and then tell me how you can take anything else in there seriously.

[Boomhauer]

For you, sure.

For everyone. All human beings are born with the same set of '6th sense' evolutionary traits, but most never develop them or even are informed of them. No one has greater '6th sense' potential from DNA, which you called "scripting", and having that potential nutured doesn't mean a greater ability than self-development - aka will.
I will agree classes can offer development, but unlike painting classes, there's no such thing as a protege'.

[alkemical]

For everyone. All human beings are born with the same '6th sense' evolutionary traits, but most never develop them. No one has greater potential from DNA, which you called "scripting", and having that potential nutured doesn't mean a greater ability than self-development - aka will.
I will agree classes can offer development, but unlike painting classes, there's no such thing as a protege'.

That's fine, that's your opinion.

[DivineBronco]

Forget the minutiae. Mathew Mark blah blah blah.

The universe is 14 billion years old.
The earth is 4 billion years old.
Dinosaurs roamed the earth 200 milliion years ago.
Humans first appeared about 100 thousand years ago.

Square that aware with the story of creation in the bible -- and then tell me how you can take anything else in there seriously.

that is the part that is most amazing to me.....most people I talk with say things like well I don't believe THAT part.........crazy town

[Boomhauer]

That's fine, that's your opinion.

Actually, it's the opinion of almost every 'energetic 6th sense' theology. Whether it's Yoga practices, Chinese understanding of Chi or Pagan connection with the environment, it's taught to anyone interested and all are equally capable. Some just develop more. There's also integration of will, both internally and externally, in the theologies of Dianetics and Wicca that all are capable of.

Like political parties or religions trying to monopolize or monetize beliefs, some have tried to do the same with 6th senses theologies, especially the ones intertwined with will like Dianetics, and your assertion of hierarchy is eerily similar to some failed philosophies. Frankly, I find it both dishonest and bigoted to declare a genetic superiority to these inherent traits all modern humans evolved with. That's like saying there's no point teaching first aid and, genetically, some are unfit to be doctors because it's a trait reserved for select few. Everyone has the ability to connect with themselves, the environment and heal themselves.

Of course, any attempt to bring a religion to a level close to church-state relationship would be immediately shot down, but the politicalization of 6th sense religions has failed before and can be foolishly considered by some. In the same way Obamacare created higher cost and lower care for the people while consolidating and enriching the elite few, any act to create a metaphoric "universal healthcare" on a societal level would be detrimental to the people's overall health, wellbeing and would likely also be used for harm. Likewise, a structured Wicca system would exist only to violate the unalienable right to pursue happiness and, described in my previous post about willing existence = Lucifer's teachings = destruction, would bring about the fall of that civilization.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

What you call an assumption that God/a figure is omnipotent is a fundamental belief of all major religions. Descriptions and characteristics vary, but even polytheistic, pantheist or paganist(sic) religions have a central omnipotent figure or fundamental.

All major religions?

Looks like somebody needs to sign up for Comparative Religion 101. Ha!

[Boomhauer]

All major religions? Looks like somebody needs to sign up for Comparative Religion 101.

Can you name a single exception, or you just being your typical tihs-spewing, LA-BF'er self?

PS. Where you been? You get OM-banned or did the guards in the shrink ward take away your internet time for a while?

[Fedaykin]

Theology is a thing of unreason altogether, an edifice of assumption and dreams, a superstructure without a substructure.

-- Ambrose Bierce

The last clause is a particularly good description.

[mhgaffney]

Can you name a single exception, or you just being your typical tihs-spewing, LA-BF'er self?

PS. Where you been? You get OM-banned or did the guards in the shrink ward take away your internet time for a while?

Sure. That's easy.

Buddhism is the exception. Buddhism is very closely linked with Hinduism. Both of these great traditions evolved in parallel -- and share many things.

They fertilized each other.

But the amazing thing about Buddhism is that it posits no G-d. Only Sunyata-- emptiness.

Not just a void of nothingness, however. Rather, a fertile void that contains everything -- including both the divine and the dark side.

If you want to call that "God," fine. The point is that in Buddhism it is not about belief. One practices very simply by sitting in meditation and confronting the All directly.

Buddhism is maybe the most direct path to the higher spiritual realms. They claim that Buddhism has produced more saints -- or enlightened beings -- than any other great tradition.

They might be right.

OOOOOOO-MMMMMMMM

[alkemical]

Actually, it's the opinion of almost every 'energetic 6th sense' theology. Whether it's Yoga practices, Chinese understanding of Chi or Pagan connection with the environment, it's taught to anyone interested and all are equally capable. Some just develop more. There's also integration of will, both internally and externally, in the theologies of Dianetics and Wicca that all are capable of.

Like political parties or religions trying to monopolize or monetize beliefs, some have tried to do the same with 6th senses theologies, especially the ones intertwined with will like Dianetics, and your assertion of hierarchy is eerily similar to some failed philosophies. Frankly, I find it both dishonest and bigoted to declare a genetic superiority to these inherent traits all modern humans evolved with. That's like saying there's no point teaching first aid and, genetically, some are unfit to be doctors because it's a trait reserved for select few. Everyone has the ability to connect with themselves, the environment and heal themselves.

Of course, any attempt to bring a religion to a level close to church-state relationship would be immediately shot down, but the politicalization of 6th sense religions has failed before and can be foolishly considered by some. In the same way Obamacare created higher cost and lower care for the people while consolidating and enriching the elite few, any act to create a metaphoric "universal healthcare" on a societal level would be detrimental to the people's overall health, wellbeing and would likely also be used for harm. Likewise, a structured Wicca system would exist only to violate the unalienable right to pursue happiness and, described in my previous post about willing existence = Lucifer's teachings = destruction, would bring about the fall of that civilization.

You stated there is no prodigy, and I disagree. I've met some very gifted youth that i would qualify as that.

Not everyone can play guitar like, say Stevie Ray Vaughn. But some people, just can. They are "wired" that way.

Now, you say that everyone can achieve or "connect" to those states, and I agree with this. For some though, they will have different/better talents than others.

it is what it is. some of it is the hardware, and some of it is the software.

Do you practice yoga? Or are you more of a ceremonial magician?

[alkemical]

Sure. That's easy.

Buddhism is the exception. Buddhism is very closely linked with Hinduism. Both of these great traditions evolved in parallel -- and share many things.

They fertilized each other.

But the amazing thing about Buddhism is that it posits no G-d. Only Sunyata-- emptiness.

Not just a void of nothingness, however. Rather, a fertile void that contains everything -- including both the divine and the dark side.

If you want to call that "God," fine. The point is that in Buddhism it is not about belief. One practices very simply by sitting in meditation and confronting the All directly.

Buddhism is maybe the most direct path to the higher spiritual realms. They claim that Buddhism has produced more saints -- or enlightened beings -- than any other great tradition.

They might be right.

OOOOOOO-MMMMMMMM


Ain

[Requiem]

Boomhauer quoted what I said, and spoke on some unrelated tangent. A theologian and climatoligist. Impressive. He learned about religion at Sierra Club.

[cutthemdown]

I don't really care if religion is real or not. If it makes you happy and enriches your life to have faith then go for it.

[sirhcyennek81]

Forget the minutiae. Mathew Mark blah blah blah.

The universe is 14 billion years old.
The earth is 4 billion years old.
Dinosaurs roamed the earth 200 milliion years ago.
Humans first appeared about 100 thousand years ago.

Square that aware with the story of creation in the bible -- and then tell me how you can take anything else in there seriously.


This is not a serious argument, is it?

:Broncos:

[sirhcyennek81]

Forget the minutiae. Mathew Mark blah blah blah.

1. The universe is 14 billion years old.
2. The earth is 4 billion years old.
3. Dinosaurs roamed the earth 200 milliion years ago.
4. Humans first appeared about 100 thousand years ago.

5. Square that aware with the story of creation in the bible -- and then tell me how you can take anything else in there seriously.


1. We think.
2. Roughly.
3. Yes.
4. Hominids have been on earth for 2 million years. Our particular species is roughly 150k years old. Simply because a hominid was not a Sapiens does not mean they are not human.
5. Apparently the term allegory is new for you? It also begs a philisophical question. What is a week to God? For a being outside the flow of time how can we quantify how much time had passed? You can hate religion all you like, but at least know the reasons you disagree with it. Stating "square that" when people have been doing that for a long, long time is disingenuous and intellectually lazy.

:Broncos:

[mhgaffney]

The universe is a lot older than 14 billion years.

The Big Bang is a joke.

The Hindus were right -- again -- -

[BroncoInferno]

5. Apparently the term allegory is new for you?

Sure, that's the proper way to read the bible, or any other work of mythology. The difference is that no one tries to site, say, the Illiad as a definitive authority on morality, history, or the origins of the life and the universe.

It also begs a philisophical question. What is a week to God?

It makes as much sense to ask that question as to ask what kind of ice cream God prefers.

For a being outside the flow of time how can we quantify how much time had passed?

Stating that God is "outside the flow of time" seems like a nonsensical statement. What - specifically - do you mean when you say that?

[sirhcyennek81]

Sure, that's the proper way to read the bible, or any other work of mythology. The difference is that no one tries to site, say, the Illiad as a 1. definitive authority on morality, history, or the origins of the life and the universe.



2. It makes as much sense to ask that question as to ask what kind of ice cream God prefers.


3. Stating that God is "outside the flow of time" seems like a nonsensical statement. What - specifically - do you mean when you say that?

1. The Illiad describes the theology of ancient greeks, the involvement of gods in the affairs and history of man as well as the moral choices made by the gods and men. All it lacks is how men got here.

2. Which would be a philisophical question, wouldnt it?

3. God created time. Stands to reason God would be outside of time, wouldnt it?

:Broncos:

[ChrisToker]

If you choose MORMON you won. All other religions are wrong better luck next time Buddhist.....

I am agnostic. Ive seen and experienced alot of intresting things in life some spiritual. I would hate to think that Im going to hell for being a just person. Not everyone does community service because they drunk drove or a wife beater. I also have to live w/ the not so just things ive done, some times you have to do the dirt to pay the dues. Life is like that.

To me nature is the meaning of life and the bringer of that life aka god, well hes that huge yellow thing in the sky we call the sun. Not saying there is more or less right now im on the fence. It's just religion is a divider that does more less then good to all mankind.