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View Full Version : 30 min video of a recent Q & A session with Knowshon Moreno


bronco0608
07-09-2011, 09:00 PM
<IFRAME height=349 src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/UQSYXXGlaY8" frameBorder=0 width=560 allowfullscreen></IFRAME>

Broncoman13
07-09-2011, 11:21 PM
Damn, Knowshon looks like he weighs about 190 in that video. Reminds me of a rookie Clinton Portis in stature. Not impressed and really not impressed with his work ethic. I hope we get a good RB in free agency, this Knowshon chapter is gonna be a quick read and over before we know it!

cutthemdown
07-09-2011, 11:43 PM
He sure doesn't look like a stud rb. I agree is he even working out? lifting?

cutthemdown
07-09-2011, 11:45 PM
Other guys are small looking also, like Jammal Charles, but Charles is getting 6 ypc. Moreno may just be a little too small, and a little too slow to make it in the NFL. Did he just not recover from the nagging injuries? I thought he was fast out of college?

DBroncos4life
07-09-2011, 11:46 PM
I'm sure its a huge shirt people.

ICON
07-10-2011, 12:00 AM
2011 NFL Free Agent Running Backs


DeAngelo Williams (CAR) – Jonathan Stewart and the emergence of Mike Goodson could make DeAngelo Williams expendable to the Panthers. After a short-lived, ineffective 2010 season, a tag and trade seems less likely. If he’s an unrestricted free agent after this year, Williams could leave Carolina for a team willing to offer him a starting position and the money that comes along with it.

Arian Foster (HOU) – With little else to play for, the Texans remain committed in helping Arian Foster win the rushing title. After spending time on the team’s practice squad last year, he was promoted late in the season and rolled his success into this year. He’s quickly become of the league’s most talented and polished running backs. He’ll likely be an exclusive rights free agent, giving the Texans all the leverage in the world to re-sign him below market value.

Ahmad Bradshaw (NYG) – While sharing the run game with Brandon Jacobs, Bradshaw put together his most impressive season yet with over 1500 yards from scrimmage. Still, there seems to be some sort of hex on Giants’ running backs who just can’t protect the ball. First it was Barber and now Jacobs and Bradshaw, who lost 6 of 7 fumbles this year. Turnovers were a big part of Giants’ losses, including a crucial one to Green Bay on the road, but it would be surprising to see New York part ways with a good runner and receiver because of fumble problems after watching Tiki Barber get over the same issues later in his career.

Cedric Benson (CIN) – The former first-round bust ran for over 1000 yards in his 2nd consecutive season, though far less efficiently this year. The Bengals are also high on Bernard Scott who ran effectively late in the season, but Cincinnati seems like a good home for Benson where he can run between the tackles.

Mike Tolbert (SD) – The 2010 season ushered in the return of the bruisers at running back and few were more effective than the former fullback, Mike Tolbert. With first round pick, Ryan Mathews, banged up for much of the year, Tolbert took control of the Chargers backfield and plowed over defenders for nearly 1000 yards from scrimmage. The organization is very high on Tolbert and will make all efforts to re-sign him this offseason, where he’ll probably be a restricted free agent, regardless of how the CBA plays out.

Darren Sproles (SD) – With Tolbert seizing the hype out of San Diego, the need for Sproles may have diminished enough where the Chargers may allow him to leave in free agency for a more lucrative offer elsewhere. They heavily utilized him as a receiving back where he eclipsed the 500 yard mark on around 60 receptions. Including returns, he averaged about 10 touches per game, which is probably his ideal number.

BenJarvus Green-Ellis (NE) – Heading into the final week, BenJarvus Green-Ellis has a shot at eclipsing the 1000-yard mark for the first time in his career. He’s been effective bouncing between the tackles and is a perfect fit in New England. He’ll most likely be a restricted free agent in any CBA scenario, giving the Patriots the edge to re-sign Ellis, a tough back who lacks long speed.

Ronnie Brown (MIA) – In a contract year, Brown accomplished something he’s never done in his entire six-year career: start all 16 games. He also posted another first and that is finishing the season with a YPC below 4. At 29 with an injury history and a lone 1000 yard season in his career, Brown hasn’t earned his second big contract, despite the talent that would warrant it. He may look for a short deal—either in Miami or elsewhere—hoping to recapture some of his youth and cash in on one larger one in the very near future.

Ricky Williams (MIA) – Williams continues to defy the odds as he turned in another successful rushing season over the age of 30. The Dolphins would be wise to offer him an incentive-laden contract and continue to use him in a timeshare role in the offense, whether or not it’s with Ronnie Brown.

Michael Bush (OAK) – Even with McFadden’s breakout season, his lingering injuries may concern the Raiders enough to keep Michael Bush as an insurance policy. Bush hasn’t been explosive enough to warrant consideration as a starter around the league, improving the odds he stays Oakland.

Pierre Thomas (NO) – Thomas hasn’t been very effective this season even when healthy. However, a good postseason could go a long way into earning himself some coin this offseason. If he can shine in the spotlight, the Saints may feel obligated to re-sign Thomas.

Leon Washington (SEA) – The dynamic returner will surely receive a long-term offer from the Seahawks after his sensational year. After getting his legs back, he should expect an expanded workload on offense in addition to his special teams duties where he’s single-handedly kept them in several games.

Vonta Leach (HOU) (FB) – The Pro Bowl fullback loves smashing heads with linebackers and has paved the way for what may be the league’s leading rusher. Houston will look to keep its ground success going, which very much includes Leach.

Le’Ron McClain (BAL) (FB) – McClain will probably ask for more carries and given the success of Peyton Hillis, a similarly proportioned back, maybe he’ll find it elsewhere. The Ravens will still have strong interest in retaining his services though.

John Kuhn (GB) (FB) – Kuhn has become a fan favorite and a locker room leader in Green Bay. He’s a lunch pail guy who provides versatility on offense and consistency on special teams. The Packers tend to take care of their own.

Other Notable Free Agents:
Tim Hightower (ARZ)
Jerious Norwood (ATL)

SoCalBronco
07-10-2011, 12:12 AM
Michael Bush would be a great pickup.

bowtown
07-10-2011, 12:20 AM
I'd love to finally get back to really using a FB. Our running game, in the red zone in particular, has slowly fallen apart since Howard Griffith.

Also, as a big Moreno fan, that interview did not leave me with a good feeling.

myMind
07-10-2011, 12:55 AM
The interview starts with endorsment questions.
(Not to mention some horrible ****ing "music".)
What the **** has he done to sell out? Nothing...
Failure.
Sadly.
Next?

Prove me wrong slow-mo!

Requiem
07-10-2011, 06:50 AM
Knowshon is one of the most talented and productive players on this team. Read it and weep. If you are down on this guy, I am sure half of you are suicidal over the rest of the roster.

Broncoman13
07-10-2011, 07:51 AM
Knowshon is one of the most talented and productive players on this team. Read it and weep. If you are down on this guy, I am sure half of you are suicidal over the rest of the roster.

I agree completely, McD gutted this roster of the talent they had and replaced it with average backups like Knowshon.

I remember having high hopes and being very excited about him. I knew we were in trouble with him after an early interview. When asked about his favorite team or player, he said he wasn't really a fan of football and didn't have a favorite team or player. I remember thinking right then and there, what drives him to play? Guy is average and wears down or out way to quickly..... And judging by his thin frame in that interview, he isn't doing much to change that issue.

Cutt, you asked about his speed. I remember watching a Georgia game when he was a sophomore, the announcer kept talking about how special he was but that he lacked speed. Moreno had several nice runs during the next few hours and he looked plenty fast to me. Fast forward to his workouts and sure enough, he lacked speed. 4.6 40s.

Requiem
07-10-2011, 07:55 AM
Gutted?

Half of the players he got rid of have never played a down in the NFL again.

Try again.

GoBroncos84
07-10-2011, 08:29 AM
Knowshon is one of the most talented and productive players on this team. Read it and weep. If you are down on this guy, I am sure half of you are suicidal over the rest of the roster.

Couldn't agree more

Jay3
07-10-2011, 10:39 AM
Knowshon is kind of thoroughly unimpressive in that interview.

2KBack
07-10-2011, 10:59 AM
discussion about whether a player looks thin or not....more evidence that we really need some real football news

OABB
07-10-2011, 11:05 AM
Knowshon is one of the most talented and productive players on this team. Read it and weep. If you are down on this guy, I am sure half of you are suicidal over the rest of the roster.

A port in a storm... The knowshon hate has always bothered me. Ive been very vocal about it. Is he AD? No, of course not. Should he have been drafted so high? Debatable. Is he good for this team? Yes. If is oline blocked a defender would he be very productive? Yes.

He has good vision, lateral quickness, good hands and is team guy. I love him. He is one of my favorite players on the team, and frankly his real haters are kind of whiney and gay.

cutthemdown
07-10-2011, 11:37 AM
Knowshon won't be a bronco for long IMO. He will make team this yr but eventually leave and hit the journeyman bkup rb role. If he's your favorite player then you must like mediocrity. He probably should not have been drafted.

Play2win
07-10-2011, 11:49 AM
Funny what happens when the steroids fades away... Hilarious!

schaaf
07-10-2011, 12:28 PM
If you watched our running backs this year, and you come away with the impression that knowshon sucks you're ****ing crazy, he was BY FAR the best back we had this year and for him to average almost 4.5 yards per carry behind our line and McDaniels offense is almost amazing. Give the kid some slack this will be his third year in the league.

SoCalBronco
07-10-2011, 12:36 PM
Hopefully he can actually stay healthy for all of training camp this year.

Baby steps.

db56
07-10-2011, 12:54 PM
this will be a make or break season for Knowshon...

Broncoman13
07-10-2011, 01:00 PM
If you watched our running backs this year, and you come away with the impression that knowshon sucks you're ****ing crazy, he was BY FAR the best back we had this year and for him to average almost 4.5 yards per carry behind our line and McDaniels offense is almost amazing. Give the kid some slack this will be his third year in the league.

Decent for a play or two and then he is motioning for somebody to come in and give him a breather. His conditioning sucks.

His vision is good and he can be very good with setting up moves and not going down with initial contact. The problem is, he also goes down by himself. For a back with so much body control and balance, why does the turf tackle him so often?

I do agree that McD's running scheme and the blocking in front of him have been shiaty to say the least. I will hold out hope that he can improve from his first two years... especially in the conditioning department.

And for all of the shiat people have been giving Orton and Tebow about working out with the team, why aren't people giving Knowshon shiat?

schaaf
07-10-2011, 01:48 PM
Decent for a play or two and then he is motioning for somebody to come in and give him a breather. His conditioning sucks.

His vision is good and he can be very good with setting up moves and not going down with initial contact. The problem is, he also goes down by himself. For a back with so much body control and balance, why does the turf tackle him so often?

I do agree that McD's running scheme and the blocking in front of him have been shiaty to say the least. I will hold out hope that he can improve from his first two years... especially in the conditioning department.

And for all of the shiat people have been giving Orton and Tebow about working out with the team, why aren't people giving Knowshon shiat?

I agree he needs to improve, I just think he gets it too hard and I noticed that about his conditioning, but I also heard McDaniels say that he wanted to rotate them in like that to keep them fresh, which is retarded because then your backs get no rhythm. I'm still supporting Knowshon through this year but if he doesn't improve he needs to become more of a role back

Dr. Broncenstein
07-10-2011, 08:10 PM
Knowshon is one of the most talented and productive players on this team. Read it and weep. If you are down on this guy, I am sure half of you are suicidal over the rest of the roster.

Read this line. Realized it's true. Then I almost wept.

cutthemdown
07-10-2011, 08:43 PM
Knowshon either breaks out this yr or he's not going to be a true NFL starter. 3rd yr is the tipping point. He may not even be on Broncos after this next season if he doesn't break out.

OABB
07-10-2011, 08:50 PM
Knowshon either breaks out this yr or he's not going to be a true NFL starter. 3rd yr is the tipping point. He may not even be on Broncos after this next season if he doesn't break out.

It may be more of a tipping point for our oline honestly- but than again I think blocks are important to a running game so what do I know.

Baba Booey
07-10-2011, 09:04 PM
Meh, I'll reserve final judgement until after this season.

We'll be running a lot more this year, and our young o-line is a year older and wiser.

He's a very talented back, but there's nothing you can do when you get the handoff with two defenders in the backfield.

Broncoman13
07-11-2011, 04:43 AM
RB will be the top priority for the Broncos in Free Agency this year. So much for Knowshon being this ultra productive stud. With our holes at DT you would think that would be the no brainer.

I'm guessing Bradshaw or Reggie Bush.

oh and btw, RB Top Priority... Fox's words, not mine.

"We were 13th on offense last year. I certainly want more balance. We've got to run the ball more and better, and (another) running back is our No. 1 priority (in free agency)," he said.

Fox made an unusual promise for an unassuming man. "We will have the most sophisticated running team in the league," he said.

http://www.denverpost.com/paige/ci_18434431

CEH
07-11-2011, 06:34 AM
Read this line. Realized it's true. Then I almost wept.

The good news for Fox is he can ride the " Josh McD dismantled the team " train for a year or two before any real expections will be placed on him. The Tebow "tryout" alone gives him two maybe three years if Tebow is not the answer at QB. I want Tebow to succeed it's what best for the team but if he doesn't Fox will get to choose his guy in '12

Requiem
07-11-2011, 10:30 AM
Anyone familiar with Fox's history in regards to usage of backs in the receiving game?

TheReverend
07-11-2011, 10:57 AM
Anyone familiar with Fox's history in regards to usage of backs in the receiving game?

When it suits their skill set (DeShaun Foster and Deangelo) he does it around 40-50x per year (primarily first and third down)

and probably 1/3 are designed plays and the other 2/3 Delhomme check downs

Rabb
07-11-2011, 11:07 AM
Meh, I'll reserve final judgement until after this season.

We'll be running a lot more this year, and our young o-line is a year older and wiser.

He's a very talented back, but there's nothing you can do when you get the handoff with two defenders in the backfield.

my thoughts, exactly

Cito Pelon
07-11-2011, 11:18 AM
Knowshon won't be a bronco for long IMO. He will make team this yr but eventually leave and hit the journeyman bkup rb role. If he's your favorite player then you must like mediocrity. He probably should not have been drafted.

Bobby Turner loved Moreno coming out of college, and without the injuries he'd certainly have more than his 2311 Yscm and 17 TD's. Moreno is actually a pretty good NFL back.

Cito Pelon
07-11-2011, 11:37 AM
Decent for a play or two and then he is motioning for somebody to come in and give him a breather. His conditioning sucks.

His vision is good and he can be very good with setting up moves and not going down with initial contact. The problem is, he also goes down by himself. For a back with so much body control and balance, why does the turf tackle him so often?

I do agree that McD's running scheme and the blocking in front of him have been shiaty to say the least. I will hold out hope that he can improve from his first two years... especially in the conditioning department.

And for all of the shiat people have been giving Orton and Tebow about working out with the team, why aren't people giving Knowshon shiat?

Well, of course his conditioning sucks. He can't run windsprints in practice if he's injured. I think the bottom line is Moreno is a good, productive NFL tailback. Obviously, we'll see how he does in the next 5 years and decide then. But 17 TD's and 2311 Yscm in his first two years is pretty good.

OABB
07-11-2011, 11:58 AM
Well, of course his conditioning sucks. He can't run windsprints in practice if he's injured. I think the bottom line is Moreno is a good, productive NFL tailback. Obviously, we'll see how he does in the next 5 years and decide then. But 17 TD's and 2311 Yscm in his first two years is pretty good.

Bust.

Inkana7
07-11-2011, 12:37 PM
Bust.

Not at all, actually.

OABB
07-11-2011, 12:39 PM
Not at all, actually.

He should have 9000 yards and 300 touchdowns by now. He.was drafted 17th omzooorgs!

cutthemdown
07-11-2011, 12:39 PM
Bobby Turner loved Moreno coming out of college, and without the injuries he'd certainly have more than his 2311 Yscm and 17 TD's. Moreno is actually a pretty good NFL back.

I loved him also. I love all Broncos until I feel they aren't going to get it done. I like Moreno, he hasn't stained our team with bad behavior or been the reason we have lost. I just haven't seen the wiggle he had in college come out in the pro's. He may just be not quite big enough, not quite fast enough, not quite good enough to make it as a true NFL bell cow. He will find a role but I'm not sure a team that drafted you top 15 will keep you around for that. Often the let you go after 3-4 yrs and some other team makes you a roll player. He may still be "pretty good" as you say but other young back like Lesean McCoy, Jammal Charles, and even Darren Mcfadden who has struggled some seem more talented IMO. Just not sure Moreno is the answer for Broncos at RB but I am all for him getting another shot this yr, we have nothing to lose because no other backs really on the roster missing carries for him. Give him the ball 20 times a game and see what happens. IMO he will avg 3.8 ypc or something like that. Just not good enough because he doesn't break long runs or make big plays.

Drek
07-11-2011, 12:43 PM
Knowshon either breaks out this yr or he's not going to be a true NFL starter. 3rd yr is the tipping point. He may not even be on Broncos after this next season if he doesn't break out.

Thomas Jones didn't put up more than 627 yards in a season until year 5, didn't break 1K until year 6. He then went on to run for 1K or better for five straight seasons. What changed for him? He was generally healthy the whole time. But when he suddenly got away from the AZ OL he blossomed into a legit runner rather quickly.

Tiki Barber never changed teams and for him year 4 is when he started giving Moreno year 1 and 2 level production. Then in year 6 he exploded and was an elite back until he retired prematurely.

A lot of guys show flashes and finally put it together in years 4-6. Moreno has shown more than flashes in his first two seasons.

RB will be the top priority for the Broncos in Free Agency this year. So much for Knowshon being this ultra productive stud. With our holes at DT you would think that would be the no brainer.

I'm guessing Bradshaw or Reggie Bush.

oh and btw, RB Top Priority... Fox's words, not mine.

"We were 13th on offense last year. I certainly want more balance. We've got to run the ball more and better, and (another) running back is our No. 1 priority (in free agency)," he said.

Fox made an unusual promise for an unassuming man. "We will have the most sophisticated running team in the league," he said.

http://www.denverpost.com/paige/ci_18434431

John Fox used his first round pick in '06 on a RB, when that RB then produced 717 yards on 144 carries (5.0 YPC) as a split duty back with DeShaun Foster he went and used his '08 first round pick on another RB.

Him making another RB a top priority isn't a problem with Moreno, its that John Fox doesn't believe in the bell cow RB model. He's one of the biggest tandem backfield advocates around.

Anyone familiar with Fox's history in regards to usage of backs in the receiving game?

Its really completely up in the air at this point. Mike McCoy was never the OC in Carolina. He started out there with Siefert after a few years bouncing around the league in WCO camps (Broncos, Packers, 49ers). Then he worked under the Fox regime in Carolina. After that came here and worked with McDaniels. He's seen three completely different offenses. He also turned down the Browns OC job to stay here and worked with Fox in Carolina, so I'm sure he'll have a good bit of autonomy.

TheReverend
07-11-2011, 12:49 PM
John Fox used his first round pick in '06 on a RB, when that RB then produced 717 yards on 144 carries (5.0 YPC) as a split duty back with DeShaun Foster he went and used his '08 first round pick on another RB.

Him making another RB a top priority isn't a problem with Moreno, its that John Fox doesn't believe in the bell cow RB model. He's one of the biggest tandem backfield advocates around.

Not necessarily. He ran with Stephen Davis as the bellcow in his most successful season ever.

When Davis broke, he was left with Foster, who clearly wasn't a bellcow runner. Then he drafted Deangelo, who though being very successful in streaks isn't a bellcow runner.

So was picking Stewart evidence of being an advocate of split backs, or was it trying to get that bellcow and he just hasn't had the opportunity to ride one horse since he had to put Davis out to pasture?

TheReverend
07-11-2011, 12:51 PM
^ to expand, in the biggest stage of his life, he ran 1 RB 13 times and the other only 3...

Dagmar
07-11-2011, 12:52 PM
#doesn'twatchvideojustgivesopinionofmoreno

Am I doing it right?

OABB
07-11-2011, 01:19 PM
#doesn'twatchvideojustgivesopinionofmoreno

Am I doing it right?

pretty good. You should also make the joke "he has a highlight reel? what is it ten seconds long?" to really get it down.

cutthemdown
07-11-2011, 01:25 PM
So you can list Thomas Jones as a guy who broke out late. That is a good point. Can you list 10 rbs that didn't break out until after yr 3? I can't. I don't mean 1 or 2 decent yrs i mean going on to be considered one of the top NFL starting rbs. That is all i am saying about Moreno that if he doesn't become a top back soon he probably won't. Regardless of Thomas Jones doing it I still feel that way.

Smiling Assassin27
07-11-2011, 01:36 PM
Knowshon either breaks out this yr or he's not going to be a true NFL starter. 3rd yr is the tipping point. He may not even be on Broncos after this next season if he doesn't break out.

Not to fall back on the ol' Patriots analogies, but the guy is Kevin Faulk. The world needs Kevin Faulks too, but not at #12 in Round 1 of the NFL freakin' draft.

alkemical
07-11-2011, 01:54 PM
Not to fall back on the ol' Patriots analogies, but the guy is Kevin Faulk. The world needs Kevin Faulks too, but not at #12 in Round 1 of the NFL freakin' draft.

Southstandsjunkie and I sort of get irked about it. leshaun mccoy went in the 2nd round....

bronco0608
07-11-2011, 02:26 PM
Knowshon hasn't lifted any weights this offseason. He has been running and playing basketball to keep in shape. (This is what he says in the beginning of the video, if he mentions weight lifting later on, oh well.)

Drek
07-11-2011, 02:30 PM
Not necessarily. He ran with Stephen Davis as the bellcow in his most successful season ever.

When Davis broke, he was left with Foster, who clearly wasn't a bellcow runner. Then he drafted Deangelo, who though being very successful in streaks isn't a bellcow runner.

So was picking Stewart evidence of being an advocate of split backs, or was it trying to get that bellcow and he just hasn't had the opportunity to ride one horse since he had to put Davis out to pasture?

He had Davis back before the tandem back system started to take hold in the league and everyone ran with a bell cow. Also, Davis was your prototypical bell cow back who needed a lot of touches to start generating yardage after wearing a defense down.

He didn't go looking for anyone like that and instead chose a tandem attack from then on in Carolina, where what he did with Williams/Foster and Williams/Stewart along with Shanahan's tandem of Anderson/Bell really kicked off the whole "tandem back" deal.

Moreno is much like Deangelo Williams. A talented RB who does a lot to help you win games, but definitely not a bell cow. As a result we will need a 10-15 carries a game backfield mate of some kind.

Of course, when we get on the big stage (playoffs, SB, etc.) the benefits of a tandem backfield shrink as concerns about wear and tear take a back seat to winning games.

Maybe he wants a true bell cow again. But I'm just saying that by his recent history in Carolina and his comments made here it sounds like he's very much thinking about getting Moreno a partner, not a replacement.

So you can list Thomas Jones as a guy who broke out late. That is a good point. Can you list 10 rbs that didn't break out until after yr 3? I can't. I don't mean 1 or 2 decent yrs i mean going on to be considered one of the top NFL starting rbs. That is all i am saying about Moreno that if he doesn't become a top back soon he probably won't. Regardless of Thomas Jones doing it I still feel that way.

I also included Tiki Barber on that list, FYI.

As for your list:
1. Warrick Dunn, barely broke 1K yards in year 2, was down around 600 in year 3, got just over 1100 in year 4 and then didn't break the 1K barrier again until year 8, at which point he did it for three consecutive years and broke 10K all time. Much like Moreno he was a valuable pass catching threat even in seasons when his rushing yardage was down.

2. Stephen Davis, best season was 567 yards on 141 carries in year 2. Started 18 games in years 2 and 3 with a combined yardage of 676 on 175 carries. Broke 1K in four of the next five seasons. His breakout in year 4 was a 1400 yard season.

3. Garrison Hearst, barely broke 1K in year 3, was down below it again in year 4, never produced like he later would as a receiver. Only had better than a 3.8 YPC in one of his first four seasons. Went over 1K in year 5, put up a 1500 yard season in year six, then missed two years due to various injuries and still put up a 1200 yard season in year 8.

4. Ricky Watters, didn't touch a football his first year in the NFL. In year two he flashed a barely 1K season, then dropped below it for the next two years. Surged to over 1200 yards in year 4 and would maintain that pace for five more years after, ending his career with over 10K rushing yards. Consistently contributed as a receiver even in his down rushing seasons.

5. Chester Taylor. Broke out with a 1200 yard season in year 5 before being relegated to Adrian Peterson's backup.

6. Priest Holmes. Didn't get on the field as a rookie, barely got over 1K in year two on 233 carries. Then hovered around 500 yards in years three and four before breaking out as an elite back for years five, six, and seven.

7. Cedric Benson. Career best 747 yards in a single season through his first four years. In years five and six he put up 1250 yards and 1100 yards respectively.

8. Brian Westbrook. Less than 200 yards as a rookie, bookended an 812 yard year three with two 600 yard seasons in years 2 and 4. Then in year 5 he rushes for 1200 yards. Follows it up with a 1300 yard season. Always produced as a receiver while working up to his big running seasons.

That plus Barber and Thomas Jones makes ten. Thats not counting the backups who were blocked for a while like Michael Turner, Ahmad Bradshaw, etc. before breaking out, or the guys who all broke out in year three such as Jamal Anderson, Ahman Green, etc..

Common trend: Almost none of these guys put together a first two seasons as solid as Moreno's. None of them scored as many touchdowns in their first two years as Moreno. Frequently guys who stuck around and then broke out as runners were also guys who could catch.

underrated29
07-11-2011, 02:35 PM
Knowshon averages Over 10 yards per catch!


There has to be something there. I mean even the great RBs that can catch, lesean mccoy, LT-in his prime, Run Dmc, Thomas Jones, Steven Jackson, AD, CJ2K----

To the best of my knowledge NONE of those guys average over 10 yards per catch. Now there are factors- passing a lot, blocking, teams, actually catching passes as a wr on routes (although he didnt do much of that) etc etc etc. Still 10 yards per catch is a ridiculous high number. It really is- you can draw your own conclusions from it. Here is mine:


Knowshon averages over 10 ypcatch not because we are the best screen running team, or because we fake the defense out so much. IMO Knowshon averages over 10YPCatch because he actually has a blocker. He is not getting hit as he gets the ball, like he does when we hand the ball off to him. He actually has a little space to do something. And when knowshon gets a little room to work with and is not being hit right away he can run for up to 10 yards at a time.




To me that is the only thing that makes sense. How can a guy that had a 3ypc average and a 4ypc average suddenly blow up for 10 in the catching dept? and how come the other great backs in the league do not do this? IMO- it has to be that knowshon is actually a pretty good rb. Not a 10 ypcarry back, but a back that can get 4-5 yards on the ground consistently and the reason we have not seen it is play calling and blocking. because when the man gets space- he has proven he can get the job done.

Houshyamama
07-11-2011, 03:45 PM
4.3 yds/carry last season is respectable, especially in the system he played in.

What bothers me about Moreno is his lack of high end speed. He has a great burst and plays tough, but he either takes bad angles in the secondary or lacks elite speed. IMO he would be a great paired with a homerun type back like Jamaal Charles.

maher_tyler
07-11-2011, 04:02 PM
Funny everyone forgets to point out we had 2 rookies on the starting O line..one being the Center. Clady wasn't himself most of the season..Harris was in and out of the line up. I guess everyone forgot we were, what seemed like, playing different players every week on the oline. Coupled with an Idiodic head coach. I'd like to see what he can do with an average oline before i judge him on whether i think he should be an NFL starter or not. Johnson and Peterson would have a hell of a time cracking 1k given the same oline and coach.

TheReverend
07-11-2011, 04:08 PM
Funny everyone forgets to point out we had 2 rookies on the starting O line..one being the Center. Clady wasn't himself most of the season..Harris was in and out of the line up. I guess everyone forgot we were, what seemed like, playing different players every week on the oline. Coupled with an Idiodic head coach.

Probably the biggest detriment.

I'd like to see what he can do with an average oline before i judge him on whether i think he should be an NFL starter or not. Johnson and Peterson would have a hell of a time cracking 1k given the same oline and coach.

Now that's just silly

DBroncos4life
07-11-2011, 04:51 PM
Probably the biggest detriment.



Now that's just silly

I don't find that second part to be silly at all. I don't think Peterson or Johnson would have cracked 1K here in Denver either with McD as the HC. No way would he let guys with that much talent stay on the team.

Houshyamama
07-11-2011, 05:09 PM
I don't find that second part to be silly at all. I don't think Peterson or Johnson would have cracked 1K here in Denver either with McD as the HC. No way would he let guys with that much talent stay on the team.

Indiana... let it go.

DBroncos4life
07-11-2011, 05:18 PM
Indiana... let it go.

It's a joke calm down. :thumbs:

cutthemdown
07-11-2011, 06:08 PM
4.3 yds/carry last season is respectable, especially in the system he played in.

What bothers me about Moreno is his lack of high end speed. He has a great burst and plays tough, but he either takes bad angles in the secondary or lacks elite speed. IMO he would be a great paired with a homerun type back like Jamaal Charles.

Yeah but Moreno is 210, he needs to be the home run guy at that size IMO. I think he gets a fair shot this yr. He has been in Denver and should have the lead spot going into camp. it's his job to lose or win probably unless some big name gets signed. More then just his stats at the end of yr though I want to see him have an impact on the games more. You know getting the extra yr for a 3rd down, getting a td when thought nothing was there, taking a screen pass and getting a big first down. Just seems to me he does some things but is very ordinary when compared to the game changing backs like Chris Johnson, Peterson, Foster, Charles, and then still pretty ordinary vs that 2nd tier like Mcfadden, Lesean McCoy etc etc. Not saying Moreno junk but I think we need another RB, and that if Moreno doesn't assert himself soon he may start bouncing around the NFL as a journeyman.

Cito Pelon
07-11-2011, 06:21 PM
I loved him also. I love all Broncos until I feel they aren't going to get it done. I like Moreno, he hasn't stained our team with bad behavior or been the reason we have lost. I just haven't seen the wiggle he had in college come out in the pro's. He may just be not quite big enough, not quite fast enough, not quite good enough to make it as a true NFL bell cow. He will find a role but I'm not sure a team that drafted you top 15 will keep you around for that. Often the let you go after 3-4 yrs and some other team makes you a roll player. He may still be "pretty good" as you say but other young back like Lesean McCoy, Jammal Charles, and even Darren Mcfadden who has struggled some seem more talented IMO. Just not sure Moreno is the answer for Broncos at RB but I am all for him getting another shot this yr, we have nothing to lose because no other backs really on the roster missing carries for him. Give him the ball 20 times a game and see what happens. IMO he will avg 3.8 ypc or something like that. Just not good enough because he doesn't break long runs or make big plays.

Well, we're gonna have to wait and see. Obviously the BBT didn't think we needed a tailback in the draft, so I'm guessing they have some confidence in Moreno . . .

Cito Pelon
07-11-2011, 06:29 PM
Southstandsjunkie and I sort of get irked about it. leshaun mccoy went in the 2nd round....

LeSean McCoy has 2617 Yscm and 13 TD's in two years, Moreno has 2311 Yscm and 17 TD's in two years . . . .

Taco John
07-11-2011, 06:50 PM
Funny everyone forgets to point out we had 2 rookies on the starting O line..one being the Center.

You know who forgot Knowshon Moreno? Josh McDaniels on third downs.

OABB
07-11-2011, 06:51 PM
LeSean McCoy has 2617 Yscm and 13 TD's in two years, Moreno has 2311 Yscm and 17 TD's in two years . . . .

But he runs faster zomg!

CEH
07-11-2011, 07:00 PM
You know who forgot Knowshon Moreno? Josh McDaniels on third downs.

So did Studs in the 2nd half of the HOU game.

Cito Pelon
07-11-2011, 07:52 PM
But he runs faster zomg!

Yeah, that LeSean has moves galore but can't seem to get into the end zone as often as Moreno.

titan
07-11-2011, 08:21 PM
So far Knowshon has been the Ashley Lelie of running backs. Former #1 pick, shows flashes at times (see NY Giant game rookie year), but not consistent. I still think he has value to this team (good receiver out of the backfield) but at best he's probably a productive 3rd down back at best.

Soul-Bronco
07-11-2011, 08:59 PM
Knowshon showed his ability when he rushed for over 160 in the KC game. A busted up O-line sure doesnt help

I actually think he can benefit tremendously from having a guy like tebow under center. I get all happy inside thinking about the play actions and red zone plays we can run with those two. If tebow starts killing it on PA moreno has the chance to take off and vice versa

cutthemdown
07-11-2011, 09:08 PM
LeSean McCoy has 2617 Yscm and 13 TD's in two years, Moreno has 2311 Yscm and 17 TD's in two years . . . .

did you say that with a straight face? moreno has had about 70 more carries. McCoy last yr had 4 or 5 carries over 40 yrds. We are still waiting for Moreno to have 1 40 yrd carry. To even try and pass them off as being close to same production seems like a huge reach to me. So McCoy has 300 more yrds on 70 less carries with way more big plays....that is the reality.

Cito Pelon
07-11-2011, 09:39 PM
did you say that with a straight face? moreno has had about 70 more carries. McCoy last yr had 4 or 5 carries over 40 yrds. We are still waiting for Moreno to have 1 40 yrd carry. To even try and pass them off as being close to same production seems like a huge reach to me. So McCoy has 300 more yrds on 70 less carries with way more big plays....that is the reality.

McCoy: 362 rushes, 118 receptions = 480 touches

Moreno: 429 rushes, 65 receptions = 494 touches

McCoy: 2617 Yscm, 13 TD's

Moreno: 2311 Yscm, 17 TD's

If you say McCoy is kicking ass over Moreno, that's fine with me. We'll see how the two compare over the next five years.

cutthemdown
07-12-2011, 12:59 AM
McCoy: 362 rushes, 118 receptions = 480 touches

Moreno: 429 rushes, 65 receptions = 494 touches

McCoy: 2617 Yscm, 13 TD's

Moreno: 2311 Yscm, 17 TD's

If you say McCoy is kicking ass over Moreno, that's fine with me. We'll see how the two compare over the next five years.

In defense of McCoy receptions sort of show more ability. Shows coaches saw you as a dual threat, while Moreno seems to not be part of passing game. It's not really a touch because its much easier to take a hand off. Really you only proved not only is McCoy a better runner, but way better out of the backfield as a receiver. McCoy will probably rush for 1200, another 500 receiving this yr. Moreno who knows. I'd say at this point in 5 yrs it won't even be close. To try and equate a reception with a hand off is BS sort of. Thats like saying one WR only had more yrds then the other guy because he caught more balls. Catching passes is something good football players do more then bad ones. McCoy catches twice as many!

Rabb
07-12-2011, 06:30 AM
It's not really a touch because its much easier to take a hand off.

well hell, if we had only known this the entire time...someone should let the running backs of the NFL know, that will be quite a burden lifted!

he scored more, that's the bottom line

give the kid a chance

Kaylore
07-12-2011, 07:04 AM
Indiana... let it go.

:spit:

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_liqcyupGac1qi9q4ko1_500.jpg

alkemical
07-12-2011, 07:11 AM
McCoy: 362 rushes, 118 receptions = 480 touches

Moreno: 429 rushes, 65 receptions = 494 touches

McCoy: 2617 Yscm, 13 TD's

Moreno: 2311 Yscm, 17 TD's

If you say McCoy is kicking ass over Moreno, that's fine with me. We'll see how the two compare over the next five years.

The question comes back to value: McCoy went in the 2nd round.

Broncoman13
07-12-2011, 07:42 AM
Source: Cecil Lammey -FRSN & Footballguys.com Cecil Lammey, NFL Insider for FRSN and senior writer at Footballguys.com, reports via Twitter that in a recent interview on 102.3 The Ticket Broncos GM Brian Xanders commented that RB Knowshon Moreno 'must perform like a first-round back.' [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ OUR VIEW ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] The pressure is on for Moreno this season. Injuries and inconsistencies have held him back the first two years in the league and he's running out of time to make an impact for the Broncos. With John Fox running the show the team will once again be a run heavy team. Most expect the Broncos to add a free agent RB like DeAngelo Williams once the lockout is over. The caliber of RB the Broncos add in free agency will give a clear indication as to what their intentions are with Moreno.

alkemical
07-12-2011, 07:44 AM
I really want Knowshon to do well. I don't hate the guy, i just don't feel he's been a good value of a draft pick.

I hope his off season has helped him stay in shape and he can be as productive as possible.

Other than that, what else can I do as a fan?

Rabb
07-12-2011, 07:51 AM
I really want Knowshon to do well. I don't hate the guy, i just don't feel he's been a good value of a draft pick.

I hope his off season has helped him stay in shape and he can be as productive as possible.

Other than that, what else can I do as a fan?

I think this sums up my feelings as well

Beantown Bronco
07-12-2011, 07:53 AM
I really want Knowshon to do well. I don't hate the guy, i just don't feel he's been a good value of a draft pick.


I've seen this from a few folks now. I'd like them to look back and name the last Broncos first round pick that put together two consecutive years that were as productive as Moreno's, especially given the constraints in coaching, play-calling and blocking that he has been enduring. Since 2000, I'd say he's been better than all of them outside of perhaps one or two that you could make an argument for.

Can he do better? Sure. But he's hardly the weakest link out there.....or even close to it.

bowtown
07-12-2011, 08:10 AM
I've seen this from a few folks now. I'd like them to look back and name the last Broncos first round pick that put together two consecutive years that were as productive as Moreno's, especially given the constraints in coaching, play-calling and blocking that he has been enduring. Since 2000, I'd say he's been better than all of them outside of perhaps one or two that you could make an argument for.

Can he do better? Sure. But he's hardly the weakest link out there.....or even close to it.

But cutthemdown says he probably shouldn't have been drafted at all...

alkemical
07-12-2011, 08:34 AM
I've seen this from a few folks now. I'd like them to look back and name the last Broncos first round pick that put together two consecutive years that were as productive as Moreno's, especially given the constraints in coaching, play-calling and blocking that he has been enduring. Since 2000, I'd say he's been better than all of them outside of perhaps one or two that you could make an argument for.

Can he do better? Sure. But he's hardly the weakest link out there.....or even close to it.

I stick by the point that we could have had a RB this productive in later rounds, and addressing the talent with the 1st round elsewhere.

You can disagree with me. But if I agreed with you, we'd both be wrong. :D

underrated29
07-12-2011, 12:08 PM
did you say that with a straight face? moreno has had about 70 more carries. McCoy last yr had 4 or 5 carries over 40 yrds. We are still waiting for Moreno to have 1 40 yrd carry. To even try and pass them off as being close to same production seems like a huge reach to me. So McCoy has 300 more yrds on 70 less carries with way more big plays....that is the reality.



How do people keep missing this.


Lesean Mccoy played for the Eagles! A playoff team! A good team!

Knowshon played for the 2nd worst team in the league! A terrible team!



Compare all you want. When you play for good teams. Better players around you, you play better too. We hear that all the time. Now suddenly that is thrown out the window because people want to complain.



Show us the stats of a player on a crappy team like the broncos that is head and shoulders out performing knowshon.



1- Knowshon averaged over 4 ypc last year and averages over 10ypcatch!
2- His career numbers in 2 years are 2300+ yards and 17tds
3-played on 2nd worst nfl team, worst run game, near worst OL, worst Head Coach


Now tell me, just what kind of numbers is knowshon supposed to have put up? If 2300+ and 17tds in 2 years is not good enough, what is? And what is reasonable for a guy on the worst team with the worst coach and near worst OL and worst rush attempts/attack?

maher_tyler
07-12-2011, 04:48 PM
How do people keep missing this.


Lesean Mccoy played for the Eagles! A playoff team! A good team!

Knowshon played for the 2nd worst team in the league! A terrible team!



Compare all you want. When you play for good teams. Better players around you, you play better too. We hear that all the time. Now suddenly that is thrown out the window because people want to complain.



Show us the stats of a player on a crappy team like the broncos that is head and shoulders out performing knowshon.



1- Knowshon averaged over 4 ypc last year and averages over 10ypcatch!
2- His career numbers in 2 years are 2300+ yards and 17tds
3-played on 2nd worst nfl team, worst run game, near worst OL, worst Head Coach


Now tell me, just what kind of numbers is knowshon supposed to have put up? If 2300+ and 17tds in 2 years is not good enough, what is? And what is reasonable for a guy on the worst team with the worst coach and near worst OL and worst rush attempts/attack?

This exactly! Put McCoy on our team last year and Moreno on theirs and tell me who you think would put up the bigger numbers!

DBroncos4life
07-12-2011, 04:55 PM
This exactly! Put McCoy on our team last year and Moreno on theirs and tell me who you think would put up the bigger numbers!

McCoy.

TheReverend
07-12-2011, 05:00 PM
Show us the stats of a player on a crappy team like the broncos that is head and shoulders out performing knowshon

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/catch_all/nfl_image/p_hillis_110712_CP.jpg

Ooops

OABB
07-12-2011, 05:05 PM
http://static.nfl.com/static/content/catch_all/nfl_image/p_hillis_110712_CP.jpg

Ooops

I honestly am not sure what kind of numbers even the great hillis would have put up for us last year. Not only were we terrible, the run game was an after thought for MCD. The best thing to do is withhold opinions until after this year for the detractors.

Those of us Moreno knobslobbers have already seen what the kid has and we are on board.

s0phr0syne
07-12-2011, 05:05 PM
oh no you didn't

TheReverend
07-12-2011, 05:08 PM
I honestly am not sure what kind of numbers even the great hillis would have put up for us last year. Not only were we terrible, the run game was an after thought for MCD. The best thing to do is withhold opinions until after this year for the detractors.

Those of us Moreno knobslobbers have already seen what the kid has and we are on board.

Well, behind a worse OL and with no passing attack at all to spread out defenses, and without playing the full season he still compiled 1654 yards and was the #3 player in the entire NFL with 13 TDs, so I think he would've been alright.

Disclaimer: He wouldn't have been able to make it to the field with his penis stuck in Mrs McDaniels.

Side note - New article on Hillis by Bucky Brooks if anyone cares:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d820bc3c6/article/shurmurs-schemes-could-help-hillis-surge-in-production?module=HP_cp2

NUB
07-12-2011, 05:12 PM
Matt Forte has also found good production in Chicago over the years and their offensive line is considerably worse than Denver's.

underrated29
07-12-2011, 05:13 PM
http://static.nfl.com/static/content/catch_all/nfl_image/p_hillis_110712_CP.jpg

Ooops



Yep, Hillis is one who did. Forgot about him and there is not much to say. But I think he is the only one. All the other RBs on all the other crappy ass teams havent done jack squat.


I will say though that hillis, in mcd system, while not given a lot of carries did nothing here like he did there.

Also, the Cleveland OL is the same one that send Jamal Lewis to back to back 1k years and like 1500 just two short years ago.




Point is 1 RB out of every 10 crappy teams puts up great numbers. The rest dont, but it not soley that their RBs suck.

underrated29
07-12-2011, 05:14 PM
Matt Forte has also found good production in Chicago over the years and their offensive line is considerably worse than Denver's.



Holy ****! its NUB- where the eff did you go and what are you doing here?!




**BTW Nub- chicago does not qualify amigo. They were one game away from the superbowl. They are a good team, or at least one that is considerably better than the broncos.

OABB
07-12-2011, 05:17 PM
Well, behind a worse OL and with no passing attack at all to spread out defenses, and without playing the full season he still compiled 1654 yards and was the #3 player in the entire NFL with 13 TDs, so I think he would've been alright.

Disclaimer: He wouldn't have been able to make it to the field with his penis stuck in Mrs McDaniels.

Side note - New article on Hillis by Bucky Brooks if anyone cares:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d820bc3c6/article/shurmurs-schemes-could-help-hillis-surge-in-production?module=HP_cp2


I love our broncos, and I think our oline has potential, but our running game was terrible last year. maybe it was Knowshon(rolls eyes) or maybe it was a terrible scheme(dur), but as far as run blocking goes, you are crazy to say our oline was better than cleveland's last year.

like macgruder crazy.

maybe in passpro we had an edge, but that runblocking last year was some of the worst ever seen.


with that said, I do believe Hillis is the superior runner at this point in their careers. time will tell.

TheReverend
07-12-2011, 05:23 PM
Yep, Hillis is one who did. Forgot about him and there is not much to say. But I think he is the only one. All the other RBs on all the other crappy ass teams havent done jack squat.


I will say though that hillis, in mcd system, while not given a lot of carries did nothing here like he did there.

Also, the Cleveland OL is the same one that send Jamal Lewis to back to back 1k years and like 1500 just two short years ago.

Point is 1 RB out of every 10 crappy teams puts up great numbers. The rest dont, but it not soley that their RBs suck.

Yeah, no it's not. It's got 2/5 of the same starters as the 2008 OL (the last 1k season)

CEH
07-12-2011, 05:29 PM
Look up Kevin Smith's first two years in DET . Very similar to Knowshown.
2400 yards and 13 TDs. Good reciever out of the backfield. And a 3rd round pick.
IMO, Not really a guy you build a running game around.

ozomulsion
07-12-2011, 05:48 PM
In defense of McCoy receptions sort of show more ability. Shows coaches saw you as a dual threat, while Moreno seems to not be part of passing game. It's not really a touch because its much easier to take a hand off. Really you only proved not only is McCoy a better runner, but way better out of the backfield as a receiver. McCoy will probably rush for 1200, another 500 receiving this yr. Moreno who knows. I'd say at this point in 5 yrs it won't even be close. To try and equate a reception with a hand off is BS sort of. Thats like saying one WR only had more yrds then the other guy because he caught more balls. Catching passes is something good football players do more then bad ones. McCoy catches twice as many!

Is that really what you think?

I think it shows Andy Reid is his head coach.

mkporter
07-12-2011, 06:10 PM
I'd love to finally get back to really using a FB. Our running game, in the red zone in particular, has slowly fallen apart since Howard Griffith.

Also, as a big Moreno fan, that interview did not leave me with a good feeling.

I agree. Our redzone game picked up quite a bit last year when we started using a fullback. Impressively enough, our fullback also plays QB.

mkporter
07-12-2011, 06:31 PM
http://static.nfl.com/static/content/catch_all/nfl_image/p_hillis_110712_CP.jpg

Ooops

Other than Moreno's durability issue, which is a valid concern, they aren't all that far apart stat-wise.

Moreno had every bit the receiving numbers that Hillis did. YPC was comparable, Hillis got a few more touches per game which points to the durability issue possibly (although more to a pass-happy offense, IMO). The biggest number I see is rushing TDs. In Moreno's defense, he did have the single greatest red-zone threat in the history of football taking a bunch of red-zone snaps from him. (Yes, Orton is THAT good). Hillis also had more fumbling issues, which was what put him in McD's dog house initially. (That and banging McD's wife, allegedly, which isn't noted on the stat-line, but should be.)

28831

TheReverend
07-12-2011, 06:46 PM
Other than Moreno's durability issue, which is a valid concern, they aren't all that far apart stat-wise.

Moreno had every bit the receiving numbers that Hillis did. YPC was comparable, Hillis got a few more touches per game which points to the durability issue possibly (although more to a pass-happy offense, IMO). The biggest number I see is rushing TDs. In Moreno's defense, he did have the single greatest red-zone threat in the history of football taking a bunch of red-zone snaps from him. (Yes, Orton is THAT good). Hillis also had more fumbling issues, which was what put him in McD's dog house initially. (That and banging McD's wife, allegedly, which isn't noted on the stat-line, but should be.)

28831

Roughly 50% more TDs and yards in 14 starts vs 13.

Over 35% of teams total offensive production vs 20%

Denver had the #7 passing attack in the league whereas Cleveland lead by a rookie QB had the #29th (Hillis, himself, the #2 leading receiver).

Not quite the stat parallel you imply.

Br0nc0Buster
07-12-2011, 09:07 PM
Moreno gets so much heat because he was the 12th overall pick I guess, but he is a productive player when he is healthy

Our offensive line was quite poor at run blocking last year, he is the last person I would blame for inefficiency in the run game

I think Tebow's athleticism can help out the run game, and also hopefully the addition of some legit backs to help out Knowshon

He does need to stay healthy though, those nagging injuries are getting really annoying

I would prefer us not to spend a lot of coin on guys like Deangelo Williams though, RB position is too expendable now days

mkporter
07-12-2011, 09:23 PM
Roughly 50% more TDs and yards in 14 starts vs 13.

Over 35% of teams total offensive production vs 20%

Denver had the #7 passing attack in the league whereas Cleveland lead by a rookie QB had the #29th (Hillis, himself, the #2 leading receiver).

Not quite the stat parallel you imply.

I'll give you the TDs. Clearly in Hillis' favor. % of teams production seems irrelevant. If not irrelevant, then it is the same point as the passing attack rating. 0.1 yards per carry difference in Hillis' favor. 1.2 YPG receiving in Hillis' favor. 5 fumbles in Moreno's favor. On the balance, Hillis performed better. Doesn't seem to be "head and shoulders" better to me. Particularly given how terrible our oline was for half the year.

I like Hillis, he's fun to watch at times. I think it is ridiculous he's on the cover of Madden, however. He's not elite. I like Moreno, he's got some conditioning issues though. He needs to step it up.

DBroncos4life
07-12-2011, 09:25 PM
Moreno gets so much heat because he was the 12th overall pick I guess, but he is a productive player when he is healthy

Our offensive line was quite poor at run blocking last year, he is the last person I would blame for inefficiency in the run game

I think Tebow's athleticism can help out the run game, and also hopefully the addition of some legit backs to help out Knowshon

He does need to stay healthy though, those nagging injuries are getting really annoying

I would prefer us not to spend a lot of coin on guys like Deangelo Williams though, RB position is too expendable now days
Leon Washington would be nice.

Br0nc0Buster
07-12-2011, 09:28 PM
Leon Washington would be nice.

yeah I guess Im not sure how much value scat back special teamers still have given the changes they made for kickoffs

Id take him though

TheReverend
07-12-2011, 09:45 PM
I'll give you the TDs. Clearly in Hillis' favor. % of teams production seems irrelevant. If not irrelevant, then it is the same point as the passing attack rating. 0.1 yards per carry difference in Hillis' favor. 1.2 YPG receiving in Hillis' favor. 5 fumbles in Moreno's favor. On the balance, Hillis performed better. Doesn't seem to be "head and shoulders" better to me. Particularly given how terrible our oline was for half the year.

I like Hillis, he's fun to watch at times. I think it is ridiculous he's on the cover of Madden, however. He's not elite. I like Moreno, he's got some conditioning issues though. He needs to step it up.

Yeah I genuinely can't tell if you're being serious or not...

SoCalBronco
07-12-2011, 09:58 PM
With Marecic blocking for him, I think Hillis is very capable of hitting 1300 yards this year, with another 300 recieving.

On the other hand, I'd be happy if the ballerina made it out of camp healthy for the first time.

ozomulsion
07-12-2011, 10:14 PM
Roughly 50% more TDs and yards in 14 starts vs 13.

Over 35% of teams total offensive production vs 20%

Denver had the #7 passing attack in the league whereas Cleveland lead by a rookie QB had the #29th (Hillis, himself, the #2 leading receiver).

Not quite the stat parallel you imply.

It's not like it's a fact that just because a team is successful in the passing game it automatically makes it easier for them to run.

In many cases, yes it helps. The Colts for example were a pretty good pass blocking team last year, but couldn't run block to save their lives. Addai and Co weren't the most talented bunch ever. I've seen worse RB tandems able to run far more effectively, and the deciding factor wasn't simply because they're more successful passing teams.

The Panthers couldn't pass last year. Does that make this guy way better than Moreno, and comparable to Hillis? I could find much better examples if I looked harder, but this was just off the top of my head. A majority of his yards came in his starts while Clausen was stinking it up.

Mike Goodson
G GS Att Yds Avg Lng TD Rec Yds Avg Lng TD FUM Lost
16 3 103 452 4.4 45 3 40 310 7.8 32 0 6 3

mkporter
07-12-2011, 11:24 PM
Yeah I genuinely can't tell if you're being serious or not...

I'm being serious. I like Moreno more than most here (although I admit to having a strong orange tint to my glasses). I think he gets a lot of flak because of his draft position, as if that was his fault. He certainly hasn't performed at the level that you'd expect from a #12 pick, but he's been a pretty decent to good back.

Moreno and Hillis are both good receivers. In my view, a wash. Hillis is a slightly better rusher, and has gotten a lot more opportunity in Cleveland's offense. Right now, he's the more accomplished back. IMO, if they had switched positions last year, Hillis would have not had better numbers running for us. Our O-line was disastrous for the first half of the year when run blocking, and after that, average at best. There just was not a lot of daylight out there.

Maybe I've just fallen for Tebow as Hillis' replacement as the hard nose, old school, white guy on the team, so he's not as special to me anymore. Hard to say.

OABB
07-12-2011, 11:27 PM
I'm being serious. I like Moreno more than most here (although I admit to having a strong orange tint to my glasses). I think he gets a lot of flak because of his draft position, as if that was his fault. He certainly hasn't performed at the level that you'd expect from a #12 pick, but he's been a pretty decent to good back.

Moreno and Hillis are both good receivers. In my view, a wash. Hillis is a slightly better rusher, and has gotten a lot more opportunity in Cleveland's offense. Right now, he's the more accomplished back. IMO, if they had switched positions last year, Hillis would have not had better numbers running for us. Our O-line was disastrous for the first half of the year when run blocking, and after that, average at best. There just was not a lot of daylight out there.

Maybe I've just fallen for Tebow as Hillis' replacement as the hard nose, old school, white guy on the team, so he's not as special to me anymore. Hard to say.

This. Thank god theres a few people that can seperate their butthurt in their observations.

underrated29
07-12-2011, 11:29 PM
Yeah, no it's not. It's got 2/5 of the same starters as the 2008 OL (the last 1k season)


They do have a better OL than us. In fact, quite a few consider one of the best young OLs in the league. Warren sapp by sheer chance happened to mention that on NFL total access just this night. They were talking about TE Ben Watson, but their young good OL was brought up.


In any event. Hillis is the one and only anomaly.

NFLBRONCO
07-13-2011, 12:04 AM
I'm being serious. I like Moreno more than most here (although I admit to having a strong orange tint to my glasses). I think he gets a lot of flak because of his draft position, as if that was his fault. He certainly hasn't performed at the level that you'd expect from a #12 pick, but he's been a pretty decent to good back.

Moreno and Hillis are both good receivers. In my view, a wash. Hillis is a slightly better rusher, and has gotten a lot more opportunity in Cleveland's offense. Right now, he's the more accomplished back. IMO, if they had switched positions last year, Hillis would have not had better numbers running for us. Our O-line was disastrous for the first half of the year when run blocking, and after that, average at best. There just was not a lot of daylight out there.

Maybe I've just fallen for Tebow as Hillis' replacement as the hard nose, old school, white guy on the team, so he's not as special to me anymore. Hard to say.


Was it his fault he was drafted 12th no of course not. Getting picked high expectations are high for huge returns its just the way it is and the way it should be. So far he is closer to a flop then a stud and when he gets hurt he misses alot of games. So should we completely write him off yet umm no but, I think we should want to see him stay healthy more often and hold on to the rock better. Just overall growth in his game in 11 would be nice. He reminds me of a bigger Sammy Winder with better hands nice moves but, slow.

cutthemdown
07-13-2011, 12:46 AM
This exactly! Put McCoy on our team last year and Moreno on theirs and tell me who you think would put up the bigger numbers!

I think McCoy would. He has better speed and way more wiggle. Better hands and superior agility. McCoy also slips out of tackles way more often then Moreno. He was on my fantasy team so I actually watch a lot of McCoy. He's slippery and times his routes way better. Could be superior coaching who knows.

cutthemdown
07-13-2011, 12:48 AM
Moreno has had a few plays where it looks like he should bust out and then get drug down from behind. Like he lacks the extra gear to pull away for 40 yrds like most NFL starting backs have.

montrose
07-13-2011, 03:17 AM
I'm with SoCal that I just want to see the guy healthy out of camp for the first time. I've been so, so dissapointed in Knowshon as a pick I was excited about as any in recent memory - I saw the guy as a can't miss prospect who missed. With that, the OL has been terrible and we've never really seen him healthy so I'm willing to give him this last shot in 2011 to realize his potential before labeling him total bust... But I'm not holding my breath.

Robert Ayers on the hand, I have VERY high hopes for this year as a 4-3 DE.

ozomulsion
07-13-2011, 03:54 AM
Moreno has had a few plays where it looks like he should bust out and then get drug down from behind. Like he lacks the extra gear to pull away for 40 yrds like most NFL starting backs have.

MOST RBs get caught from behind.

There's alot that don't but overall, DBs usually bring them down, even from behind.

Requiem
07-13-2011, 06:23 AM
Moreno. Team MVP 2011.

Cito Pelon
07-13-2011, 08:34 AM
Matt Forte has also found good production in Chicago over the years and their offensive line is considerably worse than Denver's.

For comparison:

Forte the past 2 yrs, 603 touches for 3016 Yscm and 13 TD's, 5.0 yds/touch, TD per 46 touches.

Moreno the past 2 yrs, 494 touches for 2311 Yscm and 17 TD's, 4.7 yds/touch, TD per 29 touches.

Similar numbers, except Moreno has 4 more TD's on 109 less touches. If Moreno had 603 touches, assuming the avgs stayed the same, Moreno would have had 2834 Yscm and 20 TD's.

mkporter
07-13-2011, 08:57 AM
I'm with SoCal that I just want to see the guy healthy out of camp for the first time. I've been so, so dissapointed in Knowshon as a pick I was excited about as any in recent memory - I saw the guy as a can't miss prospect who missed. With that, the OL has been terrible and we've never really seen him healthy so I'm willing to give him this last shot in 2011 to realize his potential before labeling him total bust... But I'm not holding my breath.

Robert Ayers on the hand, I have VERY high hopes for this year as a 4-3 DE.

I agree. My biggest disappointment with Moreno has been his health problems. He hasn't missed a lot of games, but he has clearly been limited physically quite a bit. When he's healthy, I think he's played pretty well.

Ayers should be murdering people this year, particularly with Doom back, and Von in the fold. I'll be pretty disappointed if he's not a force out there.

OABB
07-13-2011, 09:09 AM
For comparison:

Forte the past 2 yrs, 603 touches for 3016 Yscm and 13 TD's, 5.0 yds/touch, TD per 46 touches.

Moreno the past 2 yrs, 494 touches for 2311 Yscm and 17 TD's, 4.7 yds/touch, TD per 29 touches.

Similar numbers, except Moreno has 4 more TD's on 109 less touches. If Moreno had 603 touches, assuming the avgs stayed the same, Moreno would have had 2834 Yscm and 20 TD's.

Why do you moreno knobslobbers always use stats to make your points?

He is teh bust zomg because heeezzzz not hillizzz!!!!!!!

TheReverend
07-13-2011, 09:13 AM
They do have a better OL than us. In fact, quite a few consider one of the best young OLs in the league. Warren sapp by sheer chance happened to mention that on NFL total access just this night. They were talking about TE Ben Watson, but their young good OL was brought up.


In any event. Hillis is the one and only anomaly.

Okay, so what you're saying is that you were wrong "but Warren Sapp said"?

TheReverend
07-13-2011, 09:18 AM
I'm being serious. I like Moreno more than most here (although I admit to having a strong orange tint to my glasses). I think he gets a lot of flak because of his draft position, as if that was his fault. He certainly hasn't performed at the level that you'd expect from a #12 pick, but he's been a pretty decent to good back.

Moreno and Hillis are both good receivers. In my view, a wash. Hillis is a slightly better rusher, and has gotten a lot more opportunity in Cleveland's offense. Right now, he's the more accomplished back. IMO, if they had switched positions last year, Hillis would have not had better numbers running for us. Our O-line was disastrous for the first half of the year when run blocking, and after that, average at best. There just was not a lot of daylight out there.

Maybe I've just fallen for Tebow as Hillis' replacement as the hard nose, old school, white guy on the team, so he's not as special to me anymore. Hard to say.

Yeah sorry if you think that stat line is even remotely close, then you're just wrong.

OABB
07-13-2011, 09:19 AM
Okay, so what you're saying is that you were wrong "but Warren Sapp said"?

I think most people would agree that cleveland had the better oline in run blocking last year. Its subjective and debatable, but I think even the most average observer would agree. again, no one is dogging the albino rhino or taking anything away. Its just that our running scheme and oline play was terrible mist of the last year and that is fact.

Are you saying that our oline was better than cleveland at run blocking last year? that would be a strange departure for you. Usually you are level headed in your observations.

TheReverend
07-13-2011, 09:20 AM
It's not like it's a fact that just because a team is successful in the passing game it automatically makes it easier for them to run.

In many cases, yes it helps. The Colts for example were a pretty good pass blocking team last year, but couldn't run block to save their lives. Addai and Co weren't the most talented bunch ever. I've seen worse RB tandems able to run far more effectively, and the deciding factor wasn't simply because they're more successful passing teams.

The Panthers couldn't pass last year. Does that make this guy way better than Moreno, and comparable to Hillis? I could find much better examples if I looked harder, but this was just off the top of my head. A majority of his yards came in his starts while Clausen was stinking it up.

Mike Goodson
G GS Att Yds Avg Lng TD Rec Yds Avg Lng TD FUM Lost
16 3 103 452 4.4 45 3 40 310 7.8 32 0 6 3

Quote the part where I called it "the deciding factor"?

Simple question:

Does a strong passing attack to spread out the defense help a running game:

[ ] Yes
[ ] No

Check one.

OABB
07-13-2011, 09:21 AM
Quote the part where I called it "the deciding factor"?

Simple question:

Does a strong passing attack to spread out the defense help a running game:

[ ] Yes
[ ] No

Check one.

Yes. But you know what really helps? blocking.

mkporter
07-13-2011, 09:27 AM
Yeah sorry if you think that stat line is even remotely close, then you're just wrong.

Thanks for your opinion.

TheReverend
07-13-2011, 09:29 AM
I think most people would agree that cleveland had the better oline in run blocking last year. Its subjective and debatable, but I think even the most average observer would agree. again, no one is dogging the albino rhino or taking anything away. Its just that our running scheme and oline play was terrible mist of the last year and that is fact.

Are you saying that our oline was better than cleveland at run blocking last year? that would be a strange departure for you. Usually you are level headed in your observations.

3/5 of our OL (and Dan Graham) have blocked for gaudy season average rushers. One of the rookies (Beadles) was very good... ESPECIALLY at run blocking.

Joe Thomas is exceptional for Cleveland. Alex Mack is below average but getting better. Steinbach was good... 5 years ago in Cincinnati. Sinclair and Womack have been in the league since Moses parted the red sea and have NEVER been "good". ...and Ben Watson has never blocked anyone.

And units as a whole, they out rushed Denver 4.0 ypc to 3.9 ypc (* No other Cleveland RB surpassed even 2.3 ypc -- awesome OL indeed :spit: )

TheReverend
07-13-2011, 09:30 AM
Yes. But you know what really helps? blocking.

See above

OABB
07-13-2011, 09:35 AM
3/5 of our OL (and Dan Graham) have blocked for gaudy season average rushers. One of the rookies (Beadles) was very good... ESPECIALLY at run blocking.

Joe Thomas is exceptional for Cleveland. Alex Mack is below average but getting better. Steinbach was good... 5 years ago in Cincinnati. Sinclair and Womack have been in the league since Moses parted the red sea and have NEVER been "good". ...and Ben Watson has never blocked anyone.

And units as a whole, they out rushed Denver 4.0 ypc to 3.9 ypc (* No other Cleveland RB surpassed even 2.3 ypc -- awesome OL indeed :spit: )

How many times did they rush? And are there scheme differences? pointing out the players doesnt always tell the whole story. Especially.at oline where how they play as a unit matters more than individual accolades more than any other unit imo.

OABB
07-13-2011, 09:36 AM
That was terrible english....

TheReverend
07-13-2011, 09:37 AM
How many times did they rush? And are there scheme differences? pointing out the players doesnt always tell the whole story. Especially.at oline where how they play as a unit matters more than individual accolades more than any other unit imo.

* No other Cleveland RB surpassed even 2.3 ypc

OABB
07-13-2011, 09:39 AM
* No other Cleveland RB surpassed even 2.3 ypc

So are you saying our oline blocked better in the run last year?

TheReverend
07-13-2011, 09:40 AM
So are you are saying our oline blocked better in the run last year?

Maybe a little. I wouldn't call either "good" and that's the main point I'm pushing here.

TheReverend
07-13-2011, 09:55 AM
They do have a better OL than us. In fact, quite a few consider one of the best young OLs in the league. Warren sapp by sheer chance happened to mention that on NFL total access just this night. They were talking about TE Ben Watson, but their young good OL was brought up.


In any event. Hillis is the one and only anomaly.

Sorry I forgot to reply to the bolded portion.

...not really.

Naturally you have your AD's and CJ's but you neglect to realize is that even guys like Ryan Torain were having significantly better seasons until injury.

Significantly.

And if you want to pin this on being a bad team... what was his excuse the year before? Because if we start opening this up to mid road teams we can find a whooooooooooooole lot of examples, can't we?

underrated29
07-13-2011, 09:56 AM
Okay, so what you're saying is that you were wrong "but Warren Sapp said"?



Nope. What I said was Hillis is the one and only anomaly. And that You were wrong because Cleveland does have a better OL than we do.

All the other RBs on the crappy teams have not fared better. For instance:

1-car- Deangelo- 361 yards 1 td, Jon stewart-770 yards 2tds
2- den- knowshon- 779 yards 5tds
3- AZ- hightower- 736 yards 5 tds, beanie wells- 116 yards 2 tds
4- Buf- lynch 573 6tds (inlcuding seattle), fred jax- 927 5tds
5- cle- Hillis- 1177- 11 tds- ANOMALY!!!
6- 9ers- Gore- 853 yards- 3 tds
7- Wash- Torain- 742 yards 4tds
8- MIA- ronnie brown- 734 yards -5tds



Once again- I think its clear.

TheReverend
07-13-2011, 09:58 AM
Nope. What I said was Hillis is the one and only anomaly. And that You were wrong because Cleveland does have a better OL than we do.

All the other RBs on the crappy teams have not fared better. For instance:

1-car- Deangelo- 361 yards 1 td, Jon stewart-770 yards 2tds
2- den- knowshon- 779 yards 5tds
3- AZ- hightower- 736 yards 5 tds, beanie wells- 116 yards 2 tds
4- Buf- lynch 573 6tds (inlcuding seattle), fred jax- 927 5tds
5- cle- Hillis- 1177- 11 tds- ANOMALY!!!
6- 9ers- Gore- 853 yards- 3 tds
7- Wash- Torain- 742 yards 4tds
8- MIA- ronnie brown- 734 yards -5tds



Once again- I think its clear.

Nope.

What you said was:

Yep, Hillis is one who did. Forgot about him and there is not much to say. But I think he is the only one. All the other RBs on all the other crappy ass teams havent done jack squat.


I will say though that hillis, in mcd system, while not given a lot of carries did nothing here like he did there.

Also, the Cleveland OL is the same one that send Jamal Lewis to back to back 1k years and like 1500 just two short years ago.

Point is 1 RB out of every 10 crappy teams puts up great numbers. The rest dont, but it not soley that their RBs suck.

Which is just blatantly ignorant and wrong...

Also see previous post because I already covered your "bad teams" RBs

Taco John
07-13-2011, 10:01 AM
You're saying Hillis wouldn't have done better than Moreno behind our line last year? That seems ridiculous to me.

What's the reason Josh McDaniels abandoned Moreno on third downs last year?

underrated29
07-13-2011, 10:01 AM
Sorry I forgot to reply to the bolded portion.

...not really.

Naturally you have your AD's and CJ's but you neglect to realize is that even guys like Ryan Torain were having significantly better seasons until injury.

Significantly.

And if you want to pin this on being a bad team... what was his excuse the year before? Because if we start opening this up to mid road teams we can find a whooooooooooooole lot of examples, can't we?



Well take a look at the post one above this. Torain did not do significantly better than knowshon. And I do not think its fair to discount Torains numbers because of injury when knowshon had the same. Granted both of them play like vaginas when they get a scratch but still both experienced it.

I dont think we can.


As for last year- He did pretty well. Still a bad ol, still worst run calling, and all that other crap that has been hashed over.

However, I think a fair amount of those numbers i posted speak for themselves. Even some of the big name guys like Gore and Jon stew, just did not do well. Yes, there are many factors at work here, but I think it still comes down to our situation and the fact that in 2 years despite not playing every game, the OL and all that-

- Knowshon still has 2300+ yards and 17tds. Those are not amazing numbers, but for a 2nd year back all things considered, I would like to know what people think his numbers should be?

To me, better yes, but for the amount of hate he gets I do not see it being justified.

underrated29
07-13-2011, 10:03 AM
Nope.

What you said was:



Which is just blatantly ignorant and wrong...

Also see previous post because I already covered your "bad teams" RBs




50/50

I said they were the ones that send JL to 1500 years- I was wrong
You said they were better than our OL- You were wrong

OABB
07-13-2011, 10:04 AM
You're saying Hillis wouldn't have done better than Moreno behind our line last year? That seems ridiculous to me.

What's the reason Josh McDaniels abandoned Moreno on third downs last year?

Are you familiar with mcds offense at all?

TheReverend
07-13-2011, 10:05 AM
50/50

I said they were the ones that send JL to 1500 years- I was wrong
You said they were better than our OL- You were wrong

No it wasn't even 50/50...

and:

* No other Cleveland RB surpassed even 2.3 ypc

And also, cute that when you put together your list you skipped right over Cedric Bensen in Cinci.

Intellectual dishonesty seems to be habitual with you.

oubronco
07-13-2011, 10:07 AM
Michael Bush would be a great pickup.

Could you imagine getting Arian Foster

TheReverend
07-13-2011, 10:08 AM
Could you imagine getting Arian Foster

Unless Dennison and Kubiak came with him he wouldn't be nearly as good

oubronco
07-13-2011, 10:11 AM
Unless Dennison and Kubiak came with him he wouldn't be nearly as good

There's no way Houston let's him go but it would be nice to see a RB hit the hole and go the distance for a change

TheReverend
07-13-2011, 10:12 AM
There's no way Houston let's him go but it would be nice to see a RB hit the hole and go the distance for a change

There's a bunch of guys with breakaway speed that will be available that have experience in more traditional blocking schemes.

underrated29
07-13-2011, 10:15 AM
No it wasn't even 50/50...

and:



And also, cute that when you put together your list you skipped right over Cedric Bensen in Cinci.

Intellectual dishonesty seems to be habitual with you.



Yeah it is 50/50 but think what you will.

Nothing cute- I forgot cincy. No dishonesty, As you can see I tried to go in order of draft this year, and got some out of place. This was all done by memory except looking up the runners numbers.

So now we have a whopping TWO runners out of like- how many did I list 11 that have numbers head and shoulders above Moreno that also played on bad teams....Not good enough.

FYI-I wont dicount benson or cincy since they did suck balls this year, but they were a good team last year and in the playoffs and IIRC had it not been for devastating injuries to them they would still have been a good team. But the are only as good as their record and such they count.




But nice shot with the habitual thing there. I suggest you look reflect on yourself before trying to call out others first.

oubronco
07-13-2011, 10:15 AM
There's a bunch of guys with breakaway speed that will be available that have experience in more traditional blocking schemes.

As long as they pick up a good RB with some vision and speed I don't care who it is

Didn't the broncos brash say they were going back to more zone blocking?

underrated29
07-13-2011, 10:18 AM
There's a bunch of guys with breakaway speed that will be available that have experience in more traditional blocking schemes.


yup and some really good UFDA that have blazing speed.



For those interested:

Derrik Locke
Noel Divine (crappy person)
Graig Cooper

All three of those guys have the break away speed. Locke is my personal fav.


Mario fannin is another dark horse. He is around 5'11 220 and put up a 4.37 or 4.47 but I cant remember which. I think its the 4.47.

oubronco
07-13-2011, 10:19 AM
Did the RB from Wisconsin get drafted?

nevermind I looked him up and he ran a 4.83 40

TheReverend
07-13-2011, 10:32 AM
Yeah it is 50/50 but think what you will.

Nothing cute- I forgot cincy. No dishonesty, As you can see I tried to go in order of draft this year, and got some out of place. This was all done by memory except looking up the runners numbers.

So now we have a whopping TWO runners out of like- how many did I list 11 that have numbers head and shoulders above Moreno that also played on bad teams....Not good enough.

FYI-I wont dicount benson or cincy since they did suck balls this year, but they were a good team last year and in the playoffs and IIRC had it not been for devastating injuries to them they would still have been a good team. But the are only as good as their record and such they count.




But nice shot with the habitual thing there. I suggest you look reflect on yourself before trying to call out others first.

bertstare.jpeg

...You realize that with 5 OL you actually can't have 50/50, right?

Also, there's more than 2.

And the point isn't to trash Knowshon.

The point isn't that he's been "bad". The point is that he's been disappointing.

Which is reality.

1. Carolina - Stewart, 7 starts and 770 yards, 103 receiving
2. Denver - Moreno, 13 starts and 779 yards, 372 receiving
3. Buffalo - Jackson, 13 starts and 927 yards, 215 receiving
4. Cinci - Benson, 16 starts and 1111 yards, 178 receiving
5. Arizona - Hightower, 13 starts and 736 yards, 136 receiving
6. Browns - Hillis, 14 starts and 1177 yards, 477 receiving
7. 49ers - Gore, 11 starts and 853 yards, 452 receiving
8. Titans - Johnson, 16 starts and 1364 yards, 245 receiving
9. Cowboys - Jones, 7 starts and 800 yards, 450 receiving
10. Redskins - Torain, 8 starts and 742 yards, 125 receiving

Take a look. Knowshon doesn't stand out. In fact, he might be one of the worst on the list despite having the best draft pedigree (outside of Benson). And if you take away his ONE break away game of his career he wasn't statistically disappointing, but downright abysmal.

And you never responded to:

And if you want to pin this on being a bad team... what was his excuse the year before? Because if we start opening this up to mid road teams we can find a whooooooooooooole lot of examples, can't we?

underrated29
07-13-2011, 10:43 AM
bertstare.jpeg

...You realize that with 5 OL you actually can't have 50/50, right?

Also, there's more than 2.

And the point isn't to trash Knowshon.

The point isn't that he's been "bad". The point is that he's been disappointing.

Which is reality.

1. Carolina - Stewart, 7 starts and 770 yards, 103 receiving
2. Denver - Moreno, 13 starts and 779 yards, 372 receiving
3. Buffalo - Jackson, 13 starts and 927 yards, 215 receiving
4. Cinci - Benson, 16 starts and 1111 yards, 178 receiving
5. Arizona - Hightower, 13 starts and 736 yards, 136 receiving
6. Browns - Hillis, 14 starts and 1177 yards, 477 receiving
7. 49ers - Gore, 11 starts and 853 yards, 452 receiving
8. Titans - Johnson, 16 starts and 1364 yards, 245 receiving
9. Cowboys - Jones, 7 starts and 800 yards, 450 receiving
10. Redskins - Torain, 8 starts and 742 yards, 125 receiving

Take a look. Knowshon doesn't stand out. In fact, he might be one of the worst on the list despite having the best draft pedigree (outside of Benson). And if you take away his ONE break away game of his career he wasn't statistically disappointing, but downright abysmal.

And you never responded to:



Im not talking about the number of the OL on the line..lol-


Disaapointing- yeah, for where he was picked. But overall his 2 years numbers are not bad.

Still on that list only hillis and benson have done more with equal or less. CJ2k is in a whole other class of RB, the Elite class.


I did respond to it, here it is again:

As for last year- He did pretty well. Still a bad ol, still worst run calling, and all that other crap that has been hashed over.

However, I think a fair amount of those numbers i posted speak for themselves. Even some of the big name guys like Gore and Jon stew, just did not do well. Yes, there are many factors at work here, but I think it still comes down to our situation and the fact that in 2 years despite not playing every game, the OL and all that-

- Knowshon still has 2300+ yards and 17tds. Those are not amazing numbers, but for a 2nd year back all things considered, I would like to know what people think his numbers should be?

To me, better yes, but for the amount of hate he gets I do not see it being justified.

mkporter
07-13-2011, 10:48 AM
You're saying Hillis wouldn't have done better than Moreno behind our line last year? That seems ridiculous to me.

What's the reason Josh McDaniels abandoned Moreno on third downs last year?

What's the reason Josh McDaniels abandoned Hillis permanently?

TheReverend
07-13-2011, 10:58 AM
Im not talking about the number of the OL on the line..lol-

Then wtf are you talking about...?


Disaapointing- yeah, for where he was picked. But overall his 2 years numbers are not bad.

And far from good...

Still on that list only hillis and benson have done more with equal or less. CJ2k is in a whole other class of RB, the Elite class.

Nice qualifier on CJ. Great to know we can't compare Knowshon against good running backs...


I did respond to it, here it is again:

As for last year- He did pretty well. Still a bad ol, still worst run calling, and all that other crap that has been hashed over.

However, I think a fair amount of those numbers i posted speak for themselves. Even some of the big name guys like Gore and Jon stew, just did not do well. Yes, there are many factors at work here, but I think it still comes down to our situation and the fact that in 2 years despite not playing every game, the OL and all that-

- Knowshon still has 2300+ yards and 17tds. Those are not amazing numbers, but for a 2nd year back all things considered, I would like to know what people think his numbers should be?

To me, better yes, but for the amount of hate he gets I do not see it being justified.

Did you know Johnathan Stewart put up the same #s in his first two years with considerably less touches and only 3 starts because he was the #2?

Did you know that even Marshawn Lynch (who Buff let walk to Seattle and used an extra high draft pick on Spiller) had better #s than Moreno?

And naturally he's been smashed by actual worthy first round guys like Peterson and CJ.

Cito Pelon
07-13-2011, 11:25 AM
No it wasn't even 50/50...

and:



And also, cute that when you put together your list you skipped right over Cedric Bensen in Cinci.

Intellectual dishonesty seems to be habitual with you.

For comparison:

Cedric Benson in 2010 had 349 touches for 1289 Yscm and 8 TD's, 3.7 yds/touch, TD per 44 touches

Moreno in 2010 had 219 touches for 1151 Yscm and 8 TD's, 5.25 yds/touch, TD per 27 touches

OABB
07-13-2011, 11:31 AM
For comparison:

Cedric Benson in 2010 had 349 touches for 1289 Yscm and 8 TD's, 3.7 yds/touch, TD per 44 touches

Moreno in 2010 had 219 touches for 1151 Yscm and 8 TD's, 5.25 yds/touch, TD per 27 touches

Again with these stats....jeez. Moreno is teh bust! why cant you see it?

TheReverend
07-13-2011, 11:35 AM
Again with these stats....jeez. Moreno is teh bust! why cant you see it?

I see an overwhelming minority calling him a bust.

I see an overwhelming majority calling him a disappointment. ...Which I definitely agree with and would like to hear ANY argument refuting.

OABB
07-13-2011, 11:45 AM
I see an overwhelming minority calling him a bust.

I see an overwhelming majority calling him a disappointment. ...Which I definitely agree with and would like to hear ANY argument refuting.

Maybe im more sensitive to it but its definitely there. I just commented on one in the 25 worthless player thread..

I agree hes been a dissapointment and that his injuries are a concern. I never get upset.when that is the argument.

but trust me, the combo of him being the 12th pick, a mcd guy, and not hillis has given him a mointain of underserved ****. I promise you the guy gets.way more hate than is deserved.

TheReverend
07-13-2011, 11:47 AM
Maybe im more sensitive to it but its definitely there. I just commented on one in the 25 worthless player thread..

I agree hes been a dissapointment and that his injuries are a concern. I never get upset.when that is the argument.

but trust me, the combo of him being the 12th pick, a mcd guy, and not hillis has given him a mointain of underserved ****. I promise you the guy gets.way more hate than is deserved.

If you agree he's been a disappointment then why get upset if someone takes it a step further?

He'll either eventually deliver, or they'll end up being right.

WolfpackGuy
07-13-2011, 11:48 AM
Since we're on the Moreno - McCoy kick, the Broncos don't exactly have anybody like Jackson, Maclin, or Celek to get the ball to either. Anybody that has actually watched the two will tell you McCoy has more elusiveness and speed than Moreno. Stats or no stats.

It also didn't help Moreno that he had a complete idiot for a head coach and a statue for a QB.

When Moreno can hit a hole on the rare occasion he gets one, stops tripping over lawn gnomes just as he gets to the second level, and quits dancing into tacklers, people won't be on him as bad.

Cito Pelon
07-13-2011, 11:48 AM
Did you know that even Marshawn Lynch (who Buff let walk to Seattle and used an extra high draft pick on Spiller) had better #s than Moreno?

And naturally he's been smashed by actual worthy first round guys like Peterson and CJ.

For comparison:

Lynch his first two years (2007 and 2008), 595 touches, 2635 Yscm, 16 TD's, 4.4 yds/touch, TD per 37 touches

Moreno his first two years, 494 touches, 2311 Yscm, 17 TD's, 4.7 Yds/touch, TD per 29 touches

TheReverend
07-13-2011, 11:49 AM
Since we're on the Moreno - McCoy kick, the Broncos don't exactly have anybody like Jackson, Maclin, or Celek to get the ball too either.

It also didn't help that he had a complete idiot for a head coach and a statue for a QB.

When Moreno can hit a hole on the rare occasion he gets one, stops tripping over lawn gnomes just as he gets to the second level, and quits dancing into tacklers, people won't be on him as bad.

And can play through a hang nail.

Otherwise, spot on.

CEH
07-13-2011, 11:58 AM
For comparison:

Lynch his first two years (2007 and 2008), 595 touches, 2635 Yscm, 16 TD's, 4.4 yds/touch, TD per 37 touches

Moreno his first two years, 494 touches, 2311 Yscm, 17 TD's, 4.7 Yds/touch, TD per 29 touches


Lynch, Jones, Benson and I assume more of these first round picks that Knowshown is comparable to are with other teams because their contracts did not match their production which to me is exactly what Xanders means when he said Moreno needs to play like a 1st round pick.

underrated29
07-13-2011, 11:58 AM
Then wtf are you talking about...?




And far from good...



Nice qualifier on CJ. Great to know we can't compare Knowshon against good running backs...




Did you know Johnathan Stewart put up the same #s in his first two years with considerably less touches and only 3 starts because he was the #2?

Did you know that even Marshawn Lynch (who Buff let walk to Seattle and used an extra high draft pick on Spiller) had better #s than Moreno?

And naturally he's been smashed by actual worthy first round guys like Peterson and CJ.


Nevermind, yes, anyone who doesnt think cj2k is elite is a moron, and yes I am aware. Stewies team made the playoffs his rookie year- didnt they almost make it to the Superbowl? Cant remember that far back...



So, I think its safe to say that we all agree Moreno is not a bust but has not produced like we all think he can/should.



I would still like to know from anyone who wants to chime in though. Knowshon has 2300+ yards and 17tds in 2 years.


1. What numbers, REASONABLE numbers i should say, would you expect out of a 2nd year back, in our system, picked #12 overall?

2. For him to fix his status as dissapoint/bust, what numbers would he need to put up this upcoming year in fox system? (Again, be reasonable- no 2,00 yards crap. We know that is not going to happen as it has only happened like 5 or 6 times total.)

TheReverend
07-13-2011, 12:08 PM
Nevermind, yes, anyone who doesnt think cj2k is elite is a moron, and yes I am aware. Stewies team made the playoffs his rookie year- didnt they almost make it to the Superbowl? Cant remember that far back...



So, I think its safe to say that we all agree Moreno is not a bust but has not produced like we all think he can/should.



I would still like to know from anyone who wants to chime in though. Knowshon has 2300+ yards and 17tds in 2 years.


1. What numbers, REASONABLE numbers i should say, would you expect out of a 2nd year back, in our system, picked #12 overall?

2. For him to fix his status as dissapoint/bust, what numbers would he need to put up this upcoming year in fox system? (Again, be reasonable- no 2,00 yards crap. We know that is not going to happen as it has only happened like 5 or 6 times total.)

He just needs to post a GOOD season.

Some consistently productive games would go a long ways in changing his reputation and putting together even a mediocre 1500 yards from scrimmage season would be nice to see.

To produce like he should and like he's capable of?

1500+ rushing and 400+ receiving.

Cito Pelon
07-13-2011, 12:10 PM
Lynch, Jones, Benson and I assume more of these first round picks that Knowshown is comparable to are with other teams because their contracts did not match their production which to me is exactly what Xanders means when he said Moreno needs to play like a 1st round pick.

Good point. However, when I look at Moreno I see TD's. For the relatively few touches he's had, he's scored TD's at a pretty good clip, and that's the attention-getter. I think the guy has a nose for the end zone, and that's pretty important.

oubronco
07-13-2011, 12:15 PM
He just needs to post a GOOD season.

Some consistently productive games would go a long ways in changing his reputation and putting together even a mediocre 1500 yards from scrimmage season would be nice to see.

To produce like he should and like he's capable of?

1500+ rushing and 400+ receiving.

Staying in for more than 3 snaps at a time would be nice

OABB
07-13-2011, 12:21 PM
If you agree he's been a disappointment then why get upset if someone takes it a step further?

He'll either eventually deliver, or they'll end up being right.

Because I am an admitted knobslobberer. I love the internets and its hyperbole, but as a.real fan of the guy I do take it personal. I cant help it. Its undeserved as well. Any bronco that gets unfair.criticism will make me upset.

Im gay for the broncos and knowshon, what can I say.


Leave knowshon alone!

underrated29
07-13-2011, 12:25 PM
He just needs to post a GOOD season.

Some consistently productive games would go a long ways in changing his reputation and putting together even a mediocre 1500 yards from scrimmage season would be nice to see.

To produce like he should and like he's capable of?

1500+ rushing and 400+ receiving.


ok good, thanks for the answer..

However, I just thought of something else. Fox uses the split back- from what we have seen...deangelo and stewie both had over 1k rush yards that season.

Assuming we get another back, like deangelo, bush, benson- whoever. Would you still expect moreno to put up those kind of numbers in the time share. I think that would be pretty gaudy. 1500+ is usually a full time backs numbers.

I would say for me- as the sole starter in foxs system 1300 rush and 400 rec would be good.

As a time share- 1k yards would be acceptable to me as a solid year

ozomulsion
07-13-2011, 02:16 PM
Quote the part where I called it "the deciding factor"?

Simple question:

Does a strong passing attack to spread out the defense help a running game:

[ ] Yes
[ ] No
[x] Sometimes
Check one.

If I would've checked a simple yes that would mean Hillis is truly a god. With Mike Goodson on his heals.

Simple question:

Is a strong passing attack the main deciding factor of a teams ability to run:

[ ] Yes
[ ] No

If a team has a strong passing passing attack, and its RBs have bad stats. Does it simply mean their RBs suck:

[ ] Yes
[ ] No

cutthemdown
07-13-2011, 02:18 PM
Moreno not a bust yet, but if he doesn't break out this yr, he probably is.

TheReverend
07-13-2011, 02:22 PM
If I would've checked a simple yes that would mean Hillis is truly a god. With Mike Goodson on his heals.

Simple question:

Is a strong passing attack the main deciding factor of a teams ability to run:

[ ] Yes
[ ] No

If a team has a strong passing passing attack, and its RBs have bad stats. Does it simply mean their RBs suck:

[ ] Yes
[ ] No

Wow. That has nothing to do with it and was neither said nor implied.

This is the original statement:

Roughly 50% more TDs and yards in 14 starts vs 13.

Over 35% of teams total offensive production vs 20%

Denver had the #7 passing attack in the league whereas Cleveland lead by a rookie QB had the #29th (Hillis, himself, the #2 leading receiver).

Not quite the stat parallel you imply.

YOU are the one isolating ONE SENTENCE of that post and putting words in my mouth, NOT the other way around...

Cito Pelon
07-13-2011, 03:00 PM
Wow. That has nothing to do with it and was neither said nor implied.

This is the original statement:



YOU are the one isolating ONE SENTENCE of that post and putting words in my mouth, NOT the other way around...

Rev is quoting himself often to make his point. That's always the ultimate admission of a weak argument. But, that's the Rev, the little boy that never grew up to argue on par with men.

ozomulsion
07-13-2011, 08:11 PM
Denver had the #7 passing attack in the league whereas Cleveland lead by a rookie QB had the #29th (Hillis, himself, the #2 leading receiver).

This doesn't imply Moreno had an advantage over Hillis, or was at least on equal footing in the running game due to Denver being a more successful passing team?

OABB
07-14-2011, 10:15 AM
Moreno not a bust yet, but if he doesn't break out this yr, he probably is.

A bust is someone who doesnt produce. Like a jarvis moss. Moreno is not even close.

mkporter
07-14-2011, 10:54 AM
Or, maybe I'm wrong to be hopeful about Moreno...


http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/14/broncos-reportedly-knew-moreno-was-a-mistake-before-long/

TheReverend
07-14-2011, 10:55 AM
This doesn't imply Moreno had an advantage over Hillis, or was at least on equal footing in the running game due to Denver being a more successful passing team?

It absolutely does.

Which is a fact.

However the emphasis is on "AN" advantage... as in solitary. I'm certainly not saying it's the end all be all like you're twisting my words into.

TheReverend
07-14-2011, 10:58 AM
A bust is someone who doesnt produce. Like a jarvis moss. Moreno is not even close.

12.5 million in guaranteed money and a missed opportunity for subpar production will be considered a "bust".

RBs have a SHORT shelf life... he needs to get it together yesterday.

ozomulsion
07-16-2011, 04:59 AM
It absolutely does.

Which is a fact.

However the emphasis is on "AN" advantage... as in solitary. I'm certainly not saying it's the end all be all like you're twisting my words into.

I can see how you might have gotten that out of what I said.

You made three points as to why Hillis is awesome, and Moreno
is a bust.

I was simply discrediting 33% of your case.

You can say it's a fact that Moreno had an edge over Hillis,
because Denver was the better passing team, but anyone
who watched us play last year knows our running game held
an advantage over few other teams. Regardless of how well
they did, or didn't pass the ball. Maybe the Colts were as
poor of a run blocking team as us. Whom BTW were also a
good passing team.

The Browns were better if not superior in run blocking compared
to us. Hillis was breaking tackles in the second level. Moreno at
the line of scrimmage, or the back field far more often than Hillis.
A good passing game helps the running game sometimes, but
it's nowhere near such a key deciding factor you make it out
to be.

Hamrob
07-16-2011, 09:26 AM
KNOWSHON MORENO = "TINY DANCER"

He is a bust based on where he was drafted. He was a high #1 who plays like a guy taken in the 4th or 5th round.

He's not a guy who shows any burst whatsoever and has bricks for feet.

PRO's - He plays with energy, enthusiasm and gives good effort.

Broncoman13
07-16-2011, 09:44 AM
I wouldn't be so down on Moreno if he at least gave effort in the offseason. If he was the type that would bust his ass trying to get bigger, faster, stronger... I would defend him all day long. But he doesn't give the effort. He doesn't love football. Like I said earlier, it didn't take me long to realize that he may not have the motivation to get better. Damn shame. I really liked the draft pick at first.

Requiem
07-16-2011, 10:53 AM
So he has to get 1,900 per scrimmage a year to be legit? LOL. GTFO out of town.

Cito Pelon
07-16-2011, 10:56 AM
I wouldn't be so down on Moreno if he at least gave effort in the offseason. If he was the type that would bust his ass trying to get bigger, faster, stronger... I would defend him all day long. But he doesn't give the effort. He doesn't love football. Like I said earlier, it didn't take me long to realize that he may not have the motivation to get better. Damn shame. I really liked the draft pick at first.

Well, this is how the argument has been about Moreno - had high expectations, but he hasn't been the best in the NFL, so he was a bad pick.

Moreno statistically has been pretty good, just because he hasn't broken 1000 yds rushing or busted big runs doesn't mean Moreno has been a poor performer.

2311 Yscm and 17 TD's in two years is pretty good. Moreno's Yds per touch has been pretty good, and his TD's per touch has been very good.

Adrian Peterson in 2010 - 5.13 yds per touch, TD per 24.5 touches (319 touches)
Moreno in 2010 - 5.26 yds per touch, TD per 27 touches (219 touches)

Just look at the stats, AP avg'd less yds per touch, and barely more TD's per touch.

People have trotted out LeSean McCoy, Cedric Benson, Matt Forte, Marshawn Lynch as being much better than Moreno, but it doesn't bear out in Yds per touch and especially TD's per touch. Even AP wasn't kicking ass on Moreno last year.

Dude is a productive back.

TheReverend
07-16-2011, 11:22 AM
I can see how you might have gotten that out of what I said.

You made three points as to why Hillis is awesome, and Moreno
is a bust.

I was simply discrediting 33% of your case.

You can say it's a fact that Moreno had an edge over Hillis,
because Denver was the better passing team, but anyone
who watched us play last year knows our running game held
an advantage over few other teams. Regardless of how well
they did, or didn't pass the ball. Maybe the Colts were as
poor of a run blocking team as us. Whom BTW were also a
good passing team.

The Browns were better if not superior in run blocking compared
to us. Hillis was breaking tackles in the second level. Moreno at
the line of scrimmage, or the back field far more often than Hillis.
A good passing game helps the running game sometimes, but
it's nowhere near such a key deciding factor you make it out
to be.

"AN" edge. For the 10th effing time I listed it as A factor. YOU are the one claiming otherwise.

ozomulsion
07-16-2011, 10:50 PM
"AN" edge. For the 10th effing time I listed it as A factor. YOU are the one claiming otherwise.

For the 10th effing time. Hillis had the edge in run blocking in real life.

Saying Moreno had the edge because the Broncos had more passing yards doesn't make the sense you think it does. It doesn't make sense at all if you happened to see the 2 teams play last year.

Broncoman13
07-16-2011, 10:57 PM
Well, this is how the argument has been about Moreno - had high expectations, but he hasn't been the best in the NFL, so he was a bad pick.

Moreno statistically has been pretty good, just because he hasn't broken 1000 yds rushing or busted big runs doesn't mean Moreno has been a poor performer.

2311 Yscm and 17 TD's in two years is pretty good. Moreno's Yds per touch has been pretty good, and his TD's per touch has been very good.

Adrian Peterson in 2010 - 5.13 yds per touch, TD per 24.5 touches (319 touches)
Moreno in 2010 - 5.26 yds per touch, TD per 27 touches (219 touches)

Just look at the stats, AP avg'd less yds per touch, and barely more TD's per touch.

People have trotted out LeSean McCoy, Cedric Benson, Matt Forte, Marshawn Lynch as being much better than Moreno, but it doesn't bear out in Yds per touch and especially TD's per touch. Even AP wasn't kicking ass on Moreno last year.

Dude is a productive back.

Then why are Fox and company so down on him? Why was McD down on him shortly after he drafted him? Why did he get bigger, stronger, faster after his rookie year. The dude lacks the will to be good. Forget great.

TomServo
07-17-2011, 02:05 AM
KM is a bust. no talent no character. hes a punk. did anyone Not see him dancing in the endzone during our WORST EVER loss to the raiders?

TomServo
07-17-2011, 02:07 AM
KM: look at me: my broncos our getting our worse ass kicking EVER. I want to Dance. look at Me

2KBack
07-17-2011, 06:18 AM
Then why are Fox and company so down on him? Why was McD down on him shortly after he drafted him? Why did he get bigger, stronger, faster after his rookie year. The dude lacks the will to be good. Forget great.

What proof do you have about any this? That Fox said we need more RB's? Considering it's Moreno, Buckhalter's one leg, then nothing; We'd need to address the position even if we had Emmit Smith back there instead of KM. Are you basing McD's opinion on Paige? The guy's a crackpot. If McD was so down on KM shortly after the draft, then why wasn't RB addressed after the first season, why was he willing to part ways with Hillis so readily, and why was he still starting at the beginning of the second season?

I really feel people just HAVE to have something to hate on a team. I find it weird.

Cito Pelon
07-17-2011, 08:30 AM
Then why are Fox and company so down on him? Why was McD down on him shortly after he drafted him? Why did he get bigger, stronger, faster after his rookie year. The dude lacks the will to be good. Forget great.

What makes you think Fox & Co are down on KM? They could have drafted an RB, but didn't.

And he already IS good. I think many people are just disappointed he isn't tearing up the League because he was drafted 12th overall.

Man, the great DeAngelo Williams had 1706 Yscm and 7 TD's his first two years, KM 2311 Yscm and 17 TD's his first two years.

OABB
07-17-2011, 11:44 AM
What makes you think Fox & Co are down on KM? They could have drafted an RB, but didn't.

And he already IS good. I think many people are just disappointed he isn't tearing up the League because he was drafted 12th overall.

Man, the great DeAngelo Williams had 1706 Yscm and 7 TD's his first two years, KM 2311 Yscm and 17 TD's his first two years.

The mcd butthurt is strong on the mane. Km will never live up to the butthurt.

Broncoman13
07-17-2011, 12:32 PM
They tried drafting a RB... Twice they had plans to draft a RB.

What makes you think Fox & Co are down on KM? They could have drafted an RB, but didn't.

And he already IS good. I think many people are just disappointed he isn't tearing up the League because he was drafted 12th overall.

Man, the great DeAngelo Williams had 1706 Yscm and 7 TD's his first two years, KM 2311 Yscm and 17 TD's his first two years.

Broncoman13
07-17-2011, 12:36 PM
What proof do you have about any this? That Fox said we need more RB's? Considering it's Moreno, Buckhalter's one leg, then nothing; We'd need to address the position even if we had Emmit Smith back there instead of KM. Are you basing McD's opinion on Paige? The guy's a crackpot. If McD was so down on KM shortly after the draft, then why wasn't RB addressed after the first season, why was he willing to part ways with Hillis so readily, and why was he still starting at the beginning of the second season?

I really feel people just HAVE to have something to hate on a team. I find it weird.

Yes, very weird not to like several players on a 4 win team. We should all be thanking Knowshon for even wearing the Orange n Blue. Some people are puppets and think you have to like every player on your favorite team. I find that weird.

OABB
07-17-2011, 01:03 PM
Yes, very weird not to like several players on a 4 win team. We should all be thanking Knowshon for even wearing the Orange n Blue. Some people are puppets and think you have to like every player on your favorite team. I find that weird.

true..but you should like the good ones at least.

Broncoman13
07-17-2011, 02:10 PM
true..but you should like the good ones at least.

I like the good ones and the ones with good character. Eddie Royal hasn't been great but he is one of my favorites. TIM Tebow is obvious. Some players overcome their blemishs and I learn to like them while they are wearing the Orange n blue... Romo, BMarsh, Jay Cutler are few that come to mind. But there are plenty of self absorbed players that don't work that I don't care for, even when wearing the uniform.

2KBack
07-17-2011, 02:45 PM
Yes, very weird not to like several players on a 4 win team. We should all be thanking Knowshon for even wearing the Orange n Blue. Some people are puppets and think you have to like every player on your favorite team. I find that weird.

Not true at all...I have disliked many players...more often I have preferred other players on the team actually. Still, I have yet to see a single rational reason to hate Moreno.

alkemical
07-17-2011, 03:30 PM
NHL camps start soon.

TheReverend
07-17-2011, 03:42 PM
For the 10th effing time. Hillis had the edge in run blocking in real life.

Saying Moreno had the edge because the Broncos had more passing yards doesn't make the sense you think it does. It doesn't make sense at all if you happened to see the 2 teams play last year.

By all means, quote the part of any post of mine in this thread you disagree since all you've done is make phantom arguments for me. Its annoying for sure. Itd be like if I claimed you said no successful passing team received any advantage in the run game.

How does that feel? Maybe ill repeat it for 5 posts just to be pointlessly stubborn like you did.

24champ
07-17-2011, 03:49 PM
NHL camps start soon.

Prospect/rookie camps have already started in the NHL.

alkemical
07-18-2011, 06:28 AM
Prospect/rookie camps have already started in the NHL.

Yep, i've been following via the post-gazzette for the pens. Crosby's back to skating again.

I think he has a forsberg type of career.

Drek
07-18-2011, 07:25 AM
KM is a bust. no talent no character. hes a punk. did anyone Not see him dancing in the endzone during our WORST EVER loss to the raiders?

As opposed to the entire rest of our team who just bent over and took it?

Moreno was the only guy I saw still putting work in after the quick three touchdown lead we handed over in the first quarter that game.

So you prefer outright quitting over a little dancing post touchdown.

Cito Pelon
07-18-2011, 08:10 AM
They tried drafting a RB... Twice they had plans to draft a RB.

What RB's were these? They drafted 2 TE's, one a project, one with knee trbls, so apparently they thought the team needed 2 TE's more than any RB at all.

CEH
07-18-2011, 08:23 AM
What RB's were these? They drafted 2 TE's, one a project, one with knee trbls, so apparently they thought the team needed 2 TE's more than any RB at all.

They stayed true to their board and the RBs went sooner then their picks. One RB may have been at the top of the 4th . I think it was the kid from Nebraska that went to Washington. Roy Helu[

Requiem
07-18-2011, 08:24 AM
Fox must have thought Williams sucked too when he drafted Stewart, right Broncoman13? Moron.

Requiem
07-18-2011, 08:26 AM
Drafting a RB or a will to isn't a vote against Moreno either. It'd of been a wise move based on the ****layers behind him. Spin it some more. All the Moreno hate is baffling.

Beantown Bronco
07-18-2011, 08:30 AM
They drafted 2 TE's, one a project, one with knee trbls, so apparently they thought the team needed 2 TE's more than any RB at all.

Or a DT for that matter.

TheReverend
07-18-2011, 08:45 AM
Fox must have thought Williams sucked too when he drafted Stewart, right Broncoman13? Moron.

At that point? He probably did and with good reason.

Requiem
07-18-2011, 08:51 AM
Try again.

Cito Pelon
07-18-2011, 09:01 AM
They stayed true to their board and the RBs went sooner then their picks. One RB may have been at the top of the 4th . I think it was the kid from Nebraska that went to Washington. Roy Helu[

And I wouldn't have minded if they did draft an RB, but even if they did I wouldn't conclude EFX was down on Moreno.

TheReverend
07-18-2011, 09:02 AM
Try again.

...before drafting Stewart he had bumped DeAngelo on the depth chart, given him 0 starts in 2007 and almost twice as many carries to DeShaun ****ing Foster... and then drafted another RB high in the draft.

CEH
07-18-2011, 09:23 AM
And I wouldn't have minded if they did draft an RB, but even if they did I wouldn't conclude EFX was down on Moreno.

Well down may be harsh but Xanders did come out and say Knowshown needs to play like a #1 pick. Maybe it's the ROI aspect but McD is now longer here and Fox is bringing in a stable and high successful running scheme. It defininetly is time for Knowshown to step up his game. Knowshown will have opportunities to get to the 2nd level and make someone miss. If you can't do that in the NFL then you can't be a 1A/1B back. This is the area where I'm foggy if Knowshown has the goods. It a big year for Moreno and I think the front office may be using the media to motivate

Cito Pelon
07-18-2011, 10:16 AM
Well down may be harsh but Xanders did come out and say Knowshown needs to play like a #1 pick. Maybe it's the ROI aspect but McD is now longer here and Fox is bringing in a stable and high successful running scheme. It defininetly is time for Knowshown to step up his game. Knowshown will have opportunities to get to the 2nd level and make someone miss. If you can't do that in the NFL then you can't be a 1A/1B back. This is the area where I'm foggy if Knowshown has the goods. It a big year for Moreno and I think the front office may be using the media to motivate

Well, I've seen people bring up is Moreno a "bellcow" tailback, or "perform like a 12th overall tailback". And those are valid questions.

However, if you look at his production, Moreno has produced. His yds per touch, his TD's per touch are as good or better than all these other tailbacks people have trotted out like Forte, McCoy, Benson, Lynch.

He doesn't really have to "step up his game" since his game is pretty good already. If anybody wants to say he needs to get more touches so he leads the League in rushing or yards from scrimmage, that's a double-edged sword. There's only so many touches in a tailback's body.

cutthemdown
07-18-2011, 10:46 AM
Well, I've seen people bring up is Moreno a "bellcow" tailback, or "perform like a 12th overall tailback". And those are valid questions.

However, if you look at his production, Moreno has produced. His yds per touch, his TD's per touch are as good or better than all these other tailbacks people have trotted out like Forte, McCoy, Benson, Lynch.

He doesn't really have to "step up his game" since his game is pretty good already. If anybody wants to say he needs to get more touches so he leads the League in rushing or yards from scrimmage, that's a double-edged sword. There's only so many touches in a tailback's body.

The stat 0 runs over 40 yrds just sticks out to me. I mean he's had what almost 400 chances to make a big play?

TheReverend
07-18-2011, 10:49 AM
The stat 0 runs over 40 yrds just sticks out to me. I mean he's had what almost 400 chances to make a big play?

429. But in another 65 for receiving touches he took a swing pass for 45 vs Seattle.

Cito Pelon
07-18-2011, 11:09 AM
The stat 0 runs over 40 yrds just sticks out to me. I mean he's had what almost 400 chances to make a big play?

Moreno is a good solid all around back. That's what I'm saying. He produces when he touches the ball, and has some blocking to give him a hole.

I think he has a good nose for the end zone, his TD per 27 touches ratio says so. He's good in the red zone I think, seems to me he has been. That counts a lot. We'll see how he does the next few years.

cutthemdown
07-18-2011, 11:24 AM
429. But in another 65 for receiving touches he took a swing pass for 45 vs Seattle.

No one else thinks even one play of 40 yrds or more in almost 500 touches is odd? Sammy Winder part duex if you ask me.

TheReverend
07-18-2011, 12:09 PM
No one else thinks even one play of 40 yrds or more in almost 500 touches is odd? Sammy Winder part duex if you ask me.

I absolutely do.

Rabb
07-18-2011, 12:11 PM
No one else thinks even one play of 40 yrds or more in almost 500 touches is odd? Sammy Winder part duex if you ask me.

I think you are overvaluing that stat quite a bit personally

but whatever, people will see what they want to see...I will be curious to revisit this after the season