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View Full Version : Sea reported to offer 1st and 3rd for Kolb when lockout lifts


cutthemdown
07-02-2011, 07:37 PM
Just read that on profootball talk. If he's worth that much Orton should be at least worth more then the 3rd round pick some analysts say we would take. What do you guys think? Sea bluffing to screw cards? he doesn't seem to be that good to me. Is Kolb over hyped because he hasn't played a lot yet?

Shananahan
07-02-2011, 07:45 PM
Is Kolb over hyped because he hasn't played a lot yet?
Very much so.

You can't really say he sucks yet, but he's done nothing to be worth a first and a third.

cutthemdown
07-02-2011, 07:48 PM
So then Shannahan do you think maybe Sea floating that just to mess with Ariz, and force them to give up more, or does sea really want him that much.

That One Guy
07-02-2011, 08:06 PM
Kolb is the same, really, as Schaub was. Maybe Kolb had a bit more publicity before Vick took the job.

TonyR
07-02-2011, 08:07 PM
Effing ridiculous that someone might pay that for Kolb but it wouldn't surprise me all that much. Eagles can't pass up that compensation but I wonder what they'll do when Vick gets injured, which he will. With his style of play it's very unlikely he can lasat 16 games. Here's to hoping Denver can steal a 2nd rounder for Orton...

Beantown Bronco
07-02-2011, 08:38 PM
Ahhhhh, potential. Just another way of saying that you haven't done squat yet.

extralife
07-02-2011, 09:17 PM
I like how every fan is always against paying draft picks for potential. What do you think you do in the draft? Kolb was a high pick, and now he's seasoned and most of the tape is good. Unless you can find a draft full of ten year vets, any QB you pick is going to be more of an unknown than Kolb is.

SoCalBronco
07-02-2011, 09:29 PM
I don't think Orton is a good comparable to Kolb. Kolb is younger and vastly more athletic. He's had time to sit, learn and mature into a pro QB, but he's still got tons of good years left. Orton is a decent game manager, but his physical limitations are readily apparent and he can almost never making something out of nothing. That said, a 1st and 3rd would be excessive for Kolb, but if that's what the market bears, then we could probably get a 2nd for Orton.

I suspect Carroll is probably smarter than that, though. I could see him possibly giving a
1st rounder for Kolb (or perhaps a 2nd that could mature into a 1st based on achievement based objectives for Kolb), but not also throwing in the 3rd.

I'd say that in a reasonable market, Orton might be worth a 3rd round pick. At this time, he is still probably a better dropback passer than Tebow (although Tebow has reported taking about 1000 dropbacks a day in his private workouts this summer, so I'm sure he's improved over last year), but Tebow is certainly more dynamic and can allow us to do a panoply of creative things on offense that would make us difficult to prepare for. Also, ofcourse, he's vastly more popular with the fans and has tremendous potential going forward to redefine the position once he gets his regular reps. It doesn't hurt that he's widely more popular in the fanbase and will sell alot more jerseys for ol Scrooge McDuck. So, he's going to start. Orton would be a terrific backup, but there's probably more value for Denver in giving him up for a 3rd than keeping him for just one year. This is going to be a transition year, regardless, and its going to be tough, so its not like if he steps in, things are going to magically be much better. We've got to ride it out. I'd rather just do that and get that extra 3rd since our roster will need all the quality future draft picks it can get.

Archer81
07-02-2011, 09:31 PM
So much for Charlie Whitehurst...


:Broncos:

McDman
07-02-2011, 09:33 PM
Orton should be a 2nd rounder.

broncocalijohn
07-02-2011, 10:43 PM
So much for Charlie Whitehurst...


:Broncos:

Well, if they pay a 1st and a 3rd, Seattle would be consistent on paying backups a **** load of draft picks. I actually like Kolb and think his time has come to get to play a season as the starter. I would love Seattle to pay that much as Orton was not destined to go to Seattle and the asking price would be higher than the 3rd. Ive always have said it better be at least a 2nd rounder. This would hopefully confirm it.

mkporter
07-03-2011, 12:08 AM
Wouldn't surprise me given how much they gave up to get Whitehurst. (Moved back form #40 to #60 and threw in a 3rd rounder).

I also think Orton could net a 2nd. He's not even two years older than Kolb, and has put up pretty good numbers the past three years.

cutthemdown
07-03-2011, 12:25 AM
It's nice to be actually talking some football. Feels good.

UberBroncoMan
07-03-2011, 12:43 AM
It's nice to be actually talking some football. Feels good.

What's that...I don't even remember.

Bronco Yoda
07-03-2011, 12:48 AM
Orton should be a 2nd rounder.

That would be nice. I'll take it!

cutthemdown
07-03-2011, 12:53 AM
What's that...I don't even remember.

I know. I can't wait for FA to start so we can see how Broncos plan to fill out the front 7, what they will do at RB, does Dawkins stay, do they stand pat at WR evem with DT and Royal iffy because of injuries? Lot's of stuff for Broncos to get done, more like 2 offseasons worth.

BroncoMan4ever
07-03-2011, 02:18 AM
Just read that on profootball talk. If he's worth that much Orton should be at least worth more then the 3rd round pick some analysts say we would take. What do you guys think? Sea bluffing to screw cards? he doesn't seem to be that good to me. Is Kolb over hyped because he hasn't played a lot yet?

it's the Cutler factor in a way. Young guy who hasn't supposedly reached his full potential but has the looks of a possible pro bowler. the unknown commodity that has the pretty wrapping will always go for more than the known commodity.

however i do believe we should be able to pull in at least a 2nd for Orton. he has shown the last 2 seasons, he can fling the ball all over the field as well as almost anyone in the league, and he just needs some help on defense and in a running game.

i truly hope Seattle is willing to put down a deal like that, so we can fleece the Cards for a minimum of a 2nd rounder for Kyle.

cutthemdown
07-03-2011, 02:53 AM
it's the Cutler factor in a way. Young guy who hasn't supposedly reached his full potential but has the looks of a possible pro bowler. the unknown commodity that has the pretty wrapping will always go for more than the known commodity.

however i do believe we should be able to pull in at least a 2nd for Orton. he has shown the last 2 seasons, he can fling the ball all over the field as well as almost anyone in the league, and he just needs some help on defense and in a running game.

i truly hope Seattle is willing to put down a deal like that, so we can fleece the Cards for a minimum of a 2nd rounder for Kyle.

I'm confused. If Orton has proved he can throw ball well last couple years would we be fleecing the Cards for a 2nd? I think if you find a QB who is better then what you had, can start for a couple yrs, hell thats a worth a 2nd IMO. I think a 2nd rounder would be a fair deal for both teams. Fitz and Orton would, IMO, be a good fit. Orton just needs to throw it up for him, he really is that good down the field. I would sort of feel good about Fitz at least breaking up almost any ball thrown up to him.

UberBroncoMan
07-03-2011, 06:52 AM
If Seattle nabs him for that we might be able to squeeze a 2nd and 4th out of AZ.

barryr
07-03-2011, 06:59 AM
The Cards are in desperate need for a QB. If they can even get a decent one, they have a great chance to win their division since it is so bad. A deal with them I think can be done and a 2nd rounder could be reasonable with them considering they like I stated, have a great shot at winning that division.

UberBroncoMan
07-03-2011, 07:51 AM
The Cards are in desperate need for a QB. If they can even get a decent one, they have a great chance to win their division since it is so bad. A deal with them I think can be done and a 2nd rounder could be reasonable with them considering they like I stated, have a great shot at winning that division.

Orton working out with Mr. Fitz will hopefully spin things that way too.

Pony Boy
07-03-2011, 08:10 AM
The Cards are in desperate need for a QB. If they can even get a decent one, they have a great chance to win their division since it is so bad. A deal with them I think can be done and a 2nd rounder could be reasonable with them considering they like I stated, have a great shot at winning that division.

I think the Cards will go after Terrelle Pryor in the supplemental draft but may not outbid the Dolphins.

barryr
07-03-2011, 09:22 AM
I think the Cards will go after Terrelle Pryor in the supplemental draft but may not outbid the Dolphins.

They could, but no way is Pryor ready for the NFL, so I donīt think taking Pryor would stop them from having interest in Orton. Orton is much better than anything the Cards have right now at QB.

Pony Boy
07-03-2011, 09:34 AM
They could, but no way is Pryor ready for the NFL, so I donīt think taking Pryor would stop them from having interest in Orton. Orton is much better than anything the Cards have right now at QB.

We all see value in Orton but I'm afraid other teams will not be willing to give much up for him. I see a third round pick for him at best and I would be shickeled titless if we get a second.

I could see Pryor as a perfect fit in Miami, he could sit a year and be another Vick.

TheReverend
07-03-2011, 10:00 AM
Hell, why don't we just ask for eight 1st round picks for Orton?

gunns
07-03-2011, 10:04 AM
I'm confused. If Orton has proved he can throw ball well last couple years would we be fleecing the Cards for a 2nd? I think if you find a QB who is better then what you had, can start for a couple yrs, hell thats a worth a 2nd IMO. I think a 2nd rounder would be a fair deal for both teams. Fitz and Orton would, IMO, be a good fit. Orton just needs to throw it up for him, he really is that good down the field. I would sort of feel good about Fitz at least breaking up almost any ball thrown up to him.

He can, at times, throw the ball well, but he's also prone to Plummeresque like throws and then you have the "defensive guy is within 5 ft. of me, fall and curl up like a baby" syndrome. Of course Arizona might like that Plummeresque thing. I don't believe he's worth a 2nd rounder but if someone is going to offer that for Kolb, young yes, unproven definitely, then I think we should expect a 2nd.

barryr
07-03-2011, 10:14 AM
We all see value in Orton but I'm afraid other teams will not be willing to give much up for him. I see a third round pick for him at best and I would be shickeled titless if we get a second.

I could see Pryor as a perfect fit in Miami, he could sit a year and be another Vick.

Yep, I agree. Orton is not someone who has shown much ability to make big plays, especially late in games. Kolb hasnīt really either, but he is seen more as a better QB of the two by most for various reasons whether accurate or not.

cutthemdown
07-03-2011, 10:41 AM
We all see value in Orton but I'm afraid other teams will not be willing to give much up for him. I see a third round pick for him at best and I would be shickeled titless if we get a second.

I could see Pryor as a perfect fit in Miami, he could sit a year and be another Vick.

I think for a 3rd we hold onto him and just let him go as a FA when the time comes. Unless its a really high 3rd from a crappy team etc etc.

TonyR
07-03-2011, 10:46 AM
I think for a 3rd we hold onto him and just let him go as a FA when the time comes. Unless its a really high 3rd from a crappy team etc etc.

I would agree if this team had a chance to compete in the near term, but hard to see this team become a playoff contender this year. May as well get what you can and move on.

cutthemdown
07-03-2011, 11:04 AM
I would agree if this team had a chance to compete in the near term, but hard to see this team become a playoff contender this year. May as well get what you can and move on.

Yeah but if we hold him we may get lucky. Some QB could get drilled before the trade deadline and then Orton might be back in play. All it takes is 2 teams to sho interest and I think he becomes worth a 2nd round pick, or a 3rd with a player thrown in. Maybe not a great player, but more like a 2nd RB, or a really good returner/ST player, role player etc etc. I just think a qb as good as Orton worth more then a 3rd. Even the BKUP qb spot is an important position.

2KBack
07-03-2011, 11:06 AM
He can, at times, throw the ball well, but he's also prone to Plummeresque like throws and then you have the "defensive guy is within 5 ft. of me, fall and curl up like a baby" syndrome. Of course Arizona might like that Plummeresque thing. I don't believe he's worth a 2nd rounder but if someone is going to offer that for Kolb, young yes, unproven definitely, then I think we should expect a 2nd.

Sigh...I can't believe we are still throwing around "analysis" like this. There isn't a single aspect of Plummer's game that is anything like Orton. Plummer was a highly athletic and mobile QB who excelled at throwing on the run, but had a tendency to gamble with the ball too much leading to Ints. Orton is a traditional pocket passer with limited mobility and a tendency to be (arguably overly) conservative with the ball. That would be the reason that When Orton throws the ball 500 times...he throws 9 ints, and when Plummer does he throws 20.

The whole Kevin Kolb thing is odd to me as well. The guy was less than impressive last season in his 5 game debut. 6 fumbles and 7 ints to 7tds...for comparison Orton was 9tds with 3 ints in the first 5 games, with 4 total fumbles for the year. Sure Orton's a vet...but Kolb isn't exactly a rookie.

SouthStndJunkie
07-03-2011, 11:16 AM
Philly will get a 1st and some change, possibly a 3rd, for Kolb.

Denver will be lucky to get a 3rd round pick for Orton.

Kolb's ceiling hasn't been reached or exposed yet.

Kyle Orton's has. He is in his 7th year and has started 61 games. He will be 29 years old this year. Team's know his limitations.

You all can argue it all you want, but that is about how it will go down if both get traded.

Kolb will be 27 this year, but the fact that he hasn't started a lot of games leaves that 'unknown' factor to boost his value.

gunns
07-03-2011, 11:22 AM
Sigh...I can't believe we are still throwing around "analysis" like this. There isn't a single aspect of Plummer's game that is anything like Orton. Plummer was a highly athletic and mobile QB who excelled at throwing on the run, but had a tendency to gamble with the ball too much leading to Ints. Orton is a traditional pocket passer with limited mobility and a tendency to be (arguably overly) conservative with the ball. That would be the reason that When Orton throws the ball 500 times...he throws 9 ints, and when Plummer does he throws 20.

The whole Kevin Kolb thing is odd to me as well. The guy was less than impressive last season in his 5 game debut. 6 fumbles and 7 ints to 7tds...for comparison Orton was 9tds with 3 ints in the first 5 games, with 4 total fumbles for the year. Sure Orton's a vet...but Kolb isn't exactly a rookie.

I did not say he was Plummeresque. I said he's sometimes prone to Plummeresque throws which means why did you do that dumbass.

2KBack
07-03-2011, 11:25 AM
I did not say he was Plummeresque. I said he's sometimes prone to Plummeresque throws which means why did you do that dumbass.

Well....While I don't agree with that....there's no fun numbers for me to argue with that one. My only real complaint about Orton is that apparently all it takes is a hang nail to make him go from looking all-pro to custodial staff.

broncocalijohn
07-03-2011, 12:05 PM
Hell, why don't we just ask for eight 1st round picks for Orton?

We would but Mike Ditka is no longer a head coach.

TheReverend
07-03-2011, 12:45 PM
We would but Mike Ditka is no longer a head coach.

Maybe a three way trade Orton for Ngata and Suh?

Beantown Bronco
07-03-2011, 12:51 PM
Kolb's ceiling hasn't been reached or exposed yet.

You know this how?

Kyle Orton's has. He is in his 7th year and has started 61 games. He will be 29 years old this year. Team's know his limitations.

But on the flip-side, they also know what he CAN do. That has value too.

cutthemdown
07-03-2011, 01:11 PM
I think a 3rd round pick, that becomes a 2nd round pick if he starts more then 75% of there games. Something to where if he works out in Ariz they have to pay up.

errand
07-03-2011, 01:37 PM
Just read that on profootball talk. If he's worth that much Orton should be at least worth more then the 3rd round pick some analysts say we would take. What do you guys think? Sea bluffing to screw cards? he doesn't seem to be that good to me. Is Kolb over hyped because he hasn't played a lot yet?

Well considering they gave up almost as much for whitehurst who hadn't thrown a solitary pass.....Kolb is alot better than people think, he lost his job because he got injured. sure vick played very well in his stead, but kolb's situation is similiar to Trent Green, who got hurt and Warner took over, which made his days in St. louis numbered...but Trent green was still a pretty good QB when given the chance.

errand
07-03-2011, 01:40 PM
..not to mention Kolb's also sat behind arguably one of the game's better QB's in McNabb for the first few seasons in the league.

slick7
07-03-2011, 02:01 PM
Why would the Cards offer anything for Kyle Orton after his performance in their stadium last year?

SouthStndJunkie
07-03-2011, 03:36 PM
You know this how?


But on the flip-side, they also know what he CAN do. That has value too.

Your first comment was in regards to this: Kolb's ceiling hasn't been reached or exposed yet.

Read what i wrote. His ceiling hasn't been reached or exposed. That is why his value is higher. That means teams don't know just how good he can be....on the flip side his ceiling hasn't been exposed yet....meaning he very well could suck, but the unknown and possible potential will give him higher value than Orton.

I'm not going to get into a lengthy argument about this, but my point will be proven when Kolb goes for at least a 1st round pick and Kyle Orton won't fetch nearly that much in a trade, which means Denver may keep him.

NUB
07-03-2011, 04:02 PM
Orton should be worth a 2nd, but I am going to assume that Andrew Luck's availability next year is going to keep teams like the Cardinals from pulling the trigger at that cost. In an ordinary offseason I think we could have gotten a trade during the draft with a team like the Vikings, but oh well.

Doggcow
07-03-2011, 04:12 PM
Orton should be worth a 2nd, but I am going to assume that Andrew Luck's availability next year is going to keep teams like the Cardinals from pulling the trigger at that cost. In an ordinary offseason I think we could have gotten a trade during the draft with a team like the Vikings, but oh well.

Ah ****, good call. I didn't even think of that. As an owner I would "pretend" to contend too. I'd much rather have Luck than a few more wins this year.

tsiguy96
07-03-2011, 04:16 PM
Why would the Cards offer anything for Kyle Orton after his performance in their stadium last year?

damn, i tried to forget about that disaster of a game...

barryr
07-03-2011, 04:21 PM
Why would the Cards offer anything for Kyle Orton after his performance in their stadium last year?

Most teams do not use one game to make such a decision. Besides, hard to find many Broncos that played well that day, much less any games last season.

barryr
07-03-2011, 04:24 PM
No team in their right mind is going to go into a season looking to draft likely the best QB prospect in the following draft. Teams that do that would be looking or a new coach and GM considering how bad they would need to be. Besides, the Broncos would not be asking for a 1st rounder anyway and like I mentioned, the division the Cards are in, having even an adequate QB could win it for them. But they would rather just have scrubs and be terrible so to not even have a guarantee shot at Luck next draft? Who with any sense would do that?

SonOfLe-loLang
07-03-2011, 04:34 PM
Most teams do not use one game to make such a decision. Besides, hard to find many Broncos that played well that day, much less any games last season.

Not to mention, he was clearly hurt. His play over his last (3?) games dipped completely from the previous. He wasn't throwing the ball well at all. But he's a competitor and knows Tebow was waiting there for a chance.

Archer81
07-03-2011, 05:02 PM
But they would rather just have scrubs and be terrible so to not even have a guarantee shot at Luck next draft? Who with any sense would do that?


I have to say this fascination with Luck by this board is perversely mystifying.


:Broncos:

That One Guy
07-03-2011, 05:12 PM
I have to say this fascination with Luck by this board is perversely mystifying.


:Broncos:

Reminds me of the last game of the season years ago when it was termed the "Bush Bowl" to see who would get to draft Reggie Bush and then he ended up going #2.

There's a lot to happen still before Luck becomes a HOFer. If anyone is trashing their season at this point for the rights... they might not have the job when he finally gets a uniform.

Play2win
07-03-2011, 05:28 PM
Part of Orton's problem is that he plays hurt a little too often. When he's healthy he can be damn good.

But, that also means he GETS hurt a little too often.

broncogary
07-03-2011, 05:29 PM
Not to mention, he was clearly hurt. His play over his last (3?) games dipped completely from the previous. He wasn't throwing the ball well at all. But he's a competitor and knows Tebow was waiting there for a chance.

This is exactly right. Orton was on a Pro-Bowl pace before he got the rib injury.

Beantown Bronco
07-03-2011, 09:44 PM
Why would the Cards offer anything for Kyle Orton after his performance in their stadium last year?

Ummmm, see Exhibit A: Jake Plummer.

His last game with Arizona saw us cream them 37-7. Jake was pretty awful that game. We promptly signed him weeks later.

Grading a player after one game is idiotic.

Beantown Bronco
07-03-2011, 10:08 PM
Your first comment was in regards to this: Kolb's ceiling hasn't been reached or exposed yet.

Read what i wrote. His ceiling hasn't been reached or exposed.

And this is precisely what I'm arguing against. I can just as easily say that his ceiling HAS been reached and you literally cannot prove it hasn't. It's just a weird statement to make.

One can say that teams that are interested in trading him are banking on him not having reached his ceiling yet. But hoping that he hasn't reached it and saying conclusively that he hasn't reached it are two completely different statements. See the difference?

BroncoMan4ever
07-03-2011, 10:21 PM
I'm confused. If Orton has proved he can throw ball well last couple years would we be fleecing the Cards for a 2nd? I think if you find a QB who is better then what you had, can start for a couple yrs, hell thats a worth a 2nd IMO. I think a 2nd rounder would be a fair deal for both teams. Fitz and Orton would, IMO, be a good fit. Orton just needs to throw it up for him, he really is that good down the field. I would sort of feel good about Fitz at least breaking up almost any ball thrown up to him.

personally i believe the 3rd rounder or even 2nd rounder are not good compensation for Orton. i truly believe the guy should have a price tag of a 1st rounder or a 3rd and a player in return.

the thing i was meaning by saying we could fleece the cards for a 2nd was, even though i feel he is worth more, and a few others also feel this way, it isn't the prevailing belief. the prevailing belief is he is a mediocre player and we should only get middle round compensation for the guy.

so if it is expected he can only fetch us a 3rd at best, it would be fleecing the cards if we got a 2nd out of them for him.

cutthemdown
07-03-2011, 10:57 PM
Why would the Cards offer anything for Kyle Orton after his performance in their stadium last year?

It only happens if Larry Fitz tells them he would like Orton. Basically Fitz will be choosing the guy he wants within reason. Obviously if the price to high for Kolb they can't do it but I do think they listen to what he would like.

SouthStndJunkie
07-03-2011, 11:02 PM
And this is precisely what I'm arguing against. I can just as easily say that his ceiling HAS been reached and you literally cannot prove it hasn't. It's just a weird statement to make.

One can say that teams that are interested in trading him are banking on him not having reached his ceiling yet. But hoping that he hasn't reached it and saying conclusively that he hasn't reached it are two completely different statements. See the difference?

I think we are both trying to make similar points and arguing over verbiage.

I'm saying his ceiling is unknown at this point....nobody knows how high or low it will be because it hasn't had a chance to be fully exposed via extensive playing time.

That is why his value is high right now....some teams think his ceiling is high like that of a franchise QB and are willing to trade a cache of draft picks for him.

Kolb could very well be vastly overrated, but nobody is going to know until after Philly cashes in.

Pendejo
07-04-2011, 09:54 AM
It wouldn't surprise me if Seattle did this. Didn't they give up a first round pick for Deion Branch? To be fair I doubt the GM who made that deal is still there.

Beantown Bronco
07-04-2011, 03:31 PM
It wouldn't surprise me if Seattle did this. Didn't they give up a first round pick for Deion Branch? To be fair I doubt the GM who made that deal is still there.

Yup, and they gave over $12 mil to Leon Washington to return kicks when they should've known the kickoff spot was being pushed back to the 35, which essentially neutralizes his one strength.

BroncoMan4ever
07-04-2011, 10:07 PM
Part of Orton's problem is that he plays hurt a little too often. When he's healthy he can be damn good.

But, that also means he GETS hurt a little too often.

look at the lines the guy has played behind though. both years in Denver our line has looked like complete and utter ****. in Chicago they had an awesome D but that offense was horrendous.

you put him on a team that can keep his jersey clean and he is a pro bowl calibur player.

Play2win
07-05-2011, 04:55 AM
look at the lines the guy has played behind though. both years in Denver our line has looked like complete and utter ****. in Chicago they had an awesome D but that offense was horrendous.

you put him on a team that can keep his jersey clean and he is a pro bowl calibur player.

I whole-heartily agree. Just look at a guy like Kurt Warner, who went back and forth from looking real good to looking like **** over the course of a few years, depending on who was around him. To some degree, Orton definitely has similar strengths and weaknesses as Warner.

jhns
07-05-2011, 07:03 AM
Orton won't get us much because teams don't want players that completely fall apart at the first hint of pressure. If you are in a close game, Orton will suck. If your line isn't the best ever, you will give up a ton of sacks. Your defense better be in shape because the Orton led offense is going three and out often. If you are on third down, or in the red zone, expect to see some failure. Hey, at least he can complete a few long passes!

There is a reason that every time he starts, his coach is looking to replace him. When the guy making the game plan doesn't think Orton is doing what is asked of him, why would anyone else?

Pendejo
07-05-2011, 07:10 AM
I whole-heartily agree. Just look at a guy like Kurt Warner, who went back and forth from looking real good to looking like **** over the course of a few years, depending on who was around him. To some degree, Orton definitely has similar strengths and weaknesses as Warner.

I don't see that comparison at all. Warner will be a hall of famer. Orton is perhaps a step up from a ham 'n egger. There is no part of Orton's game that is above mediocre.

Kaylore
07-05-2011, 07:18 AM
I don't see that comparison at all. Warner will be a hall of famer. Orton is perhaps a step up from a ham 'n egger. There is no part of Orton's game that is above mediocre.

I would say turnovers. He's above average in not turning the ball over.

2KBack
07-05-2011, 07:18 AM
I don't see that comparison at all. Warner will be a hall of famer. Orton is perhaps a step up from a ham 'n egger. There is no part of Orton's game that is above mediocre.

well he does have that whole, got drafted, made the team, started and won football games in the NFL before he was 28 years old thing going for him.

TheReverend
07-05-2011, 08:18 AM
I would say turnovers. He's above average in not turning the ball over.

...until you start looking at how many fumbles he loses. Then he's absolutely below average in turnovers for game managers.

Kaylore
07-05-2011, 08:44 AM
...until you start looking at how many fumbles he loses. Then he's absolutely below average in turnovers for game managers.

He fumbled four times last year and lost four.

For comparison a one Jay Cutler fumbled ten times and lost six (and threw more interceptions, obviously) Tom Brady has averaged ten fumbles a year and loses about four a year. Peyton Manning fumbles less, but last year he fumbled three times, so one more than Orton. Aaron Rogers fumbled...four times last year.

I would say Orton loses more fumbles than other QB's but that could put on teammates not being Johnny on-the-spot. Would Orton have fumbled more if he played three more games? Possibly. He statistically should have fumbled one more time. Still, he's completely in line with the rest of league, and when you factor in that we threw more than a lot of other teams, his ratio isn't near as bad as your post suggests.

He doesn't fumble that much at all, actually.

cutthemdown
07-05-2011, 08:48 AM
I've never thought Orton coughs ball up exceptionally easy. He's no fort knox but I wouldn't label him a fumbler. Its hard to hold onto the ball when you get drilled while looking downfield.

TheReverend
07-05-2011, 09:05 AM
He fumbled four times last year and lost four.

For comparison a one Jay Cutler fumbled ten times and lost six (and threw more interceptions, obviously) Tom Brady has averaged ten fumbles a year and loses about four a year. Peyton Manning fumbles less, but last year he fumbled three times, so one more than Orton. Aaron Rogers fumbled...four times last year.

I would say Orton loses more fumbles than other QB's but that could put on teammates not being Johnny on-the-spot. Would Orton have fumbled more if he played three more games? Possibly. He statistically should have fumbled one more time. Still, he's completely in line with the rest of league, and when you factor in that we threw more than a lot of other teams, his ratio isn't near as bad as your post suggests.

He doesn't fumble that much at all, actually.

On my phone while out in AZ so can't reply properly for a few days. Until then, good day sir.

2KBack
07-05-2011, 09:44 AM
Sweet....stat play. Just from a fumbles perspective I took the total number of drop backs by several Quarterbacks to determine how often they fumble. I determined the dropbacks by adding their pass attempts, sacks, and rush attempts. I didn't have a good way of determining if a rush attempt was designed or not, so that should be kept in mind. I doubt many of Peyton's or Orton's were designed, but I'm sure Rodgers and Cutler had several.

Orton had 554 Dropbacks and 4 fumbles... 1 fumble every 139 dropbacks

Cutler: 514 w/10 Fumbles...1:51

Manning: 713 w/3 Fumbles...1:238!!

Rodgers: 560 w/4 Fumbles...1:140

Brady: 548 w/3 Fumbles...1:183

Brees: 701 w/9 Fumbles...1:78

And for I added in Warner from his last starting season, since that
comparison was made

Warner: 558 w/11 Fumbles...1:51

This doesn't take how many were lost into account, but it does show who tends to drop the ball the most.

BroncoMan4ever
07-05-2011, 11:12 AM
Orton won't get us much because teams don't want players that completely fall apart at the first hint of pressure. If you are in a close game, Orton will suck. If your line isn't the best ever, you will give up a ton of sacks. Your defense better be in shape because the Orton led offense is going three and out often. If you are on third down, or in the red zone, expect to see some failure. Hey, at least he can complete a few long passes!
There is a reason that every time he starts, his coach is looking to replace him. When the guy making the game plan doesn't think Orton is doing what is asked of him, why would anyone else?

what everyone seems to forget when they talk about our ****ty 3rd down conversion rate is that 3rd down is most typically a running down and if you are incapable of running in the red zone you will be settling for a lot of field goals. our offense has been absolutely incapable of running the ball for the last several season. instead the fact that we go 3 and out often is thrown on Orton which is not nearly the entire problem.

sutoazul
07-05-2011, 12:25 PM
what everyone seems to forget when they talk about our ****ty 3rd down conversion rate is that 3rd down is most typically a running down and if you are incapable of running in the red zone you will be settling for a lot of field goals. our offense has been absolutely incapable of running the ball for the last several season. instead the fact that we go 3 and out often is thrown on Orton which is not nearly the entire problem.

3rd downs are running downs?? really?? you run the ball when is 3rd & 8 or 3rd & 5?? 3rd downs unless they're very short yardage are almost exclusively pass plays.

Kaylore
07-05-2011, 12:54 PM
Sweet....stat play. Just from a fumbles perspective I took the total number of drop backs by several Quarterbacks to determine how often they fumble. I determined the dropbacks by adding their pass attempts, sacks, and rush attempts. I didn't have a good way of determining if a rush attempt was designed or not, so that should be kept in mind. I doubt many of Peyton's or Orton's were designed, but I'm sure Rodgers and Cutler had several.

Orton had 554 Dropbacks and 4 fumbles... 1 fumble every 139 dropbacks

Cutler: 514 w/10 Fumbles...1:51

Manning: 713 w/3 Fumbles...1:238!!

Rodgers: 560 w/4 Fumbles...1:140

Brady: 548 w/3 Fumbles...1:183

Brees: 701 w/9 Fumbles...1:78

And for I added in Warner from his last starting season, since that
comparison was made

Warner: 558 w/11 Fumbles...1:51

This doesn't take how many were lost into account, but it does show who tends to drop the ball the most.
Thank you. If you can, take a look at each season. Brady's fumbles are usually much higher than this last year. There are years he was closer to Warner's numbers.

cutthemdown
07-05-2011, 01:44 PM
Orton only makes sense for a team that has some real stud weapons. Tenn/Ariz/Minny all have some real special offensive players that could help Orton win. True he isn't an A level qb. But those a level guys get 2 first round picks for them. The low b guys like Orton are still worth a 2nd round pick IMO.

2KBack
07-05-2011, 03:57 PM
Thank you. If you can, take a look at each season. Brady's fumbles are usually much higher than this last year. There are years he was closer to Warner's numbers.

Brady averages 8 fumbles a year, but it's a pretty big swing from year to year. Early in his career he has a few 12 and 13 fumble seasons.

Warner averaged 10 fumbles for a career.

BroncoMan4ever
07-05-2011, 10:07 PM
3rd downs are running downs?? really?? you run the ball when is 3rd & 8 or 3rd & 5?? 3rd downs unless they're very short yardage are almost exclusively pass plays.

i never said every 3rd down is a running down, simply that most often on decent teams 3rd down is a running down because it is usually 3rd and 4 or less situation. on bad teams it is a passing down.

cutthemdown
07-05-2011, 10:27 PM
Orton is an avg starting NFL QB. Nothing special but also serviceable with a good team around him. With some studs maybe even a playoff qb. IMO that has some value to a team that doesn't get Kolb, doesn't want Young or McNabb.

Br0nc0Buster
07-06-2011, 01:08 AM
no way I would give up anything more than a 2nd for Kolb, but if Seattle is willing to overpay(which would benefit us as far as Orton's value is concerned), then whatever I dont care

surely they would of learned from the Charlie Whitehurst failure, but maybe not

BroncoMan4ever
07-06-2011, 03:20 AM
Orton is an avg starting NFL QB. Nothing special but also serviceable with a good team around him. With some studs maybe even a playoff qb. IMO that has some value to a team that doesn't get Kolb, doesn't want Young or McNabb.

average starting QB. do you realize that means he is an instant upgrade to at least 10 teams just by being an average starting QB?

this is a league that lives and dies on its QBs. there are about 4 truly elite QBs. Manning, Brady, Brees, and Rivers. There are about 4 really good QBs, Rodgers, Ryan, Rapistberger, Schaub. after that there are the starters that can do a lot of good things with help. Manning, Orton, Flacco, Cutler, and Cassel. now with this in mind at worst Orton is the 13th ranked QB in the league, although personally i take him ahead of all the other Starter ranked QBs.

with the remainings, McNabb, Young, Campbell, Palmer, Smith, Fitzpatrick, Sanchez, Hasselbeck, Henne, McCOy, Bradford and TEBOW there are questions around all of them

(yes i ranked Tebow as a remaining, simply because 3 games is not enough to judge him on even though i have faith in the guy. hell i put McCOy and Bradford there too, simply because they were rookies and 1 season is not enough to proclaim them anything more than just NFL QBs)

McNabb - too old, lack of effort, and on the downslope
Young - Head case, poor effort and attitude
Campbell - not good enough to start in Oakland (enough said)
Palmer - does the guy even want to play
Smith - terrible number 1 overall pick and his replacement was drafted
Fitzpatrick - can't nail down a starting job in Buffalo
Sanchez - can he win without a badass defense and running game propping him up
Hasselbeck - age a factor also injuries
Henne - nothing special, hasn't done anything to have the job taken from him, but hasn't done anything to show he is a permanent fixture in Miami
McCoy - showed flashes, but in few games unknown at this point
Bradford - looked like the real deal potentially
TEBOW - looked like a gamer. kind of wild, still learning to play pro style, but also showed a lot of moxie and a leadership ability and desire to win that obviously rubbed off on teammates.

Oakland, Buffalo, Miami, Cincinatti, Jacksonville, Tennessee, San Francisco, Arizona, Minnesotta, Seattle and Washington are all teams that would be upgraded by having Orton. there are others that could switch out current starters and remain as they are currently, but 11 teams would be upgraded by bringing in Orton.

seeing as the hot name is Kolb and only 1 team will actually get him that leaves 10 teams that should be at least interested in taking a look at the guy.

i don't think it is out of the question at all, that if Kolb truly is worth a 1st and 3rd that Orton isn't worth at least a 1st or a mid round and a player.

ZONA
07-06-2011, 04:20 AM
Kolb has more upside then Orton. More athletic and a bit younger. But that's it's. Orton has proven much more and is the "safer" way to go. You know what you get with Orton. A guy who won't turn the ball over much, won't make many mistakes, is fairly accurate, can make most of the throws well. Problem is, people are looking for Tom Brady's out there and they're willing to gamble to find it. Kolb hasn't done much but he still has that "but what if" factor where Orton doesn't. On that same note, Kolb also has alot more bust factor. He could turn out to be a real lemon. With Orton you definitely not going to get a lemon. You're going to get a good QB in his prime and for a great price.

There will be a team out there that will deal for Orton and I believe it will be a 2nd rounder at the least.

alkemical
07-06-2011, 05:28 AM
See, the problem is... "You know what you get with Orton".

IMO, he's a backup/bridge QB. He's not worth a first round pick -

WolfpackGuy
07-06-2011, 05:52 AM
A 1st and a 3rd is much too steep for Kolb, but whatever he goes for will set the bar.

I'd be more than fine with it if the Broncos can get a 3rd or high 4th for Orton.

FireFly
07-06-2011, 06:43 AM
I think for a 3rd we hold onto him and just let him go as a FA when the time comes. Unless its a really high 3rd from a crappy team etc etc.

You're right, I think that if all we get is a 3rd we just hang onto him. And the way Tebow plays putting his body on the line, that might not be a bad thing

barryr
07-06-2011, 11:23 AM
I donīt understand the thinking of if the Broncos can get no higher than a 3rd, just keep Orton which them means lose him in free agency and get nothing. How is nothing better than a 3rd round pick? I would listen and wait for the best offer, but keeping him and then lose him or nothing if donīt get a 2nd or higher pick? I donīt see the sense in that.

Beantown Bronco
07-06-2011, 11:30 AM
I donīt understand the thinking of if the Broncos can get no higher than a 3rd, just keep Orton which them means lose him in free agency and get nothing. How is nothing better than a 3rd round pick? I would listen and wait for the best offer, but keeping him and then lose him or nothing if donīt get a 2nd or higher pick? I donīt see the sense in that.

Because, assuming their are no changes in the new CBA related to comp picks, we'd most likely get a 3rd or 4th round comp pick for him if we lose him to free agency. Why settle for just a 3rd or 4th now, when we can get the same thing a year down the road PLUS get one more year of his services that we're paying for anyway?

CEH
07-06-2011, 11:38 AM
I believe Denver is on the hook for $2.8MM of Orton's $8MM 2011 salary if he's traded. Many Broncos have been working out at the local HS down the street organized by Dawkins including Tebow but no Orton. I think the writing is on the wall and Orton will be traded. $8MM seems alot for a backup.

broncocalijohn
07-06-2011, 11:53 AM
i never said every 3rd down is a running down, simply that most often on decent teams 3rd down is a running down because it is usually 3rd and 4 or less situation. on bad teams it is a passing down.

I think it needs to be a 3rd and short 3 to be considered a running down.

BroncoMan4ever
07-06-2011, 12:40 PM
I think it needs to be a 3rd and short 3 to be considered a running down.

i disagree. it depends on your RB and your OL more than it does the remaining yardage. i remember in 97 and 98 SHanahan giving the ball to TD on 3rd a 5 a lot. he knew TD would pick up that first down.

Rausch 2.0
07-06-2011, 12:53 PM
i disagree. it depends on your RB and your OL more than it does the remaining yardage. i remember in 97 and 98 SHanahan giving the ball to TD on 3rd a 5 a lot. he knew TD would pick up that first down.

KC ran a ton of traps/draws on 3rd and long with the Holmes/LJ combo.

It's not something you do with some schlub. If you have a Tomlinson (in his prime,) Holmes, TD, Faulk, etc. you can easily pick that up.

But the opponent must be worried about the pass to get away with it...

alkemical
07-06-2011, 12:55 PM
Shanny tried to run on 3rd and longs a lot - and pass on 3rd and shorts (near the end when he thought he was clever).

Rausch 2.0
07-06-2011, 12:55 PM
Oh, an' FTR, I think Kolb is worth much more than Ca$$hole was.

Kolb is seasoned, well coached (by a QB savvy HC,) and still has a number of years left in him...

Br0nc0Buster
07-06-2011, 03:28 PM
Oh, an' FTR, I think Kolb is worth much more than Ca$$hole was.

Kolb is seasoned, well coached (by a QB savvy HC,) and still has a number of years left in him...

he is worth much more than Cassel, that trade was a blunder

still not worth a first though

DBroncos4life
07-06-2011, 05:16 PM
The cap savings would be nice.