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View Full Version : Wladimir Klitschko vs David Haye (07/02/11)


ZONA
06-27-2011, 01:45 AM
So who are you picking to win and why?


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ZONA
06-27-2011, 02:10 AM
Not only is this a great match up against 2 fighters but 2 of the best trainers (Roach vs Steward) as well.


I like Klitschko in this fight but I do think it will be one of his most challenging fights of the past 3 or 4 years. Haye is fast and has good power but the problem most guys have against Wlad is that his defense under Steward is big time improved. Yes he holds a bit here and there but that's part of Heavyweight boxing. Wlad's opponents can't break it down very well. When they do get in close, usually 2 things happen. They either get hit, or Wlad will clutch to protect, so they are ineffective when they do get inside. Over the course of the rounds, they get frustrated and feel they have to try harder, but the same routine is outcome. By the later rounds, they've taken some really hard hits, combined with being frustrated, they can't last.

I of course give Haye a fighting chance, but not much. He's really going to have to land something special in the 1st few rounds. He's not going to get many chances so he has to take big time advantage of the ones he will get. He's got to land a few power shots to Wlad's dome early if he wants to have a chance. But getting past that jab jab thud is harder then it looks.

cutthemdown
06-27-2011, 02:49 AM
I know nothing about it but I picked the dude with scarier name.

KillerBronco#76
06-27-2011, 09:01 PM
Klitschko's whole fighting style is designed around his left jab and his right straight using his reach and power as his defense. You will hardly ever see him be the aggressor until he feels his opponent is either worn down or hurt in which case he has a very good feel for when it is time to become the aggressor. He likes to let other boxers beat themselves for the most part like Zona said they often times get frustrated by the fact that they cannot get past his jab.

Without a doubt Klitschko has one of the most powerful jabs of all time if not the most powerful. I have seen him beat several opponents with his jab alone at least one knockout with it off of memory. So while your trying to get inside he simply steps back and gives you a left jab that feels like a normal fighters right straight.

With that being said his best weapon is his right straight, while his jab is the main stay of his defense his right straight is what brings it all together. The second you discover a way past his jab and try to throw a punch he will immediately come in with his right straight which if it lands can end the fight at any moment. Remember now that because of his height he is able to punch downward with that right hand using not only the power of a 250 man but gravity along with that. So he doesn't even need to throw a hook and i can't remember ever seeing him throw more than a couple. He knows what his bread and butter is and sticks too it. He began this strategy in the first Samuel Peter fight to save his career and has been perfecting it ever since.

Honestly I don't see any way Haye can win other than a one punch wonder. He has very good agility and power, incredibly quick feet. But he will really have to work to get to spot where he can hit Klitschko. He is really going to have to be in the best shape of his career and will have to keep a fast pace throughout the whole fight. Klitschko goes to great lengths to defend his head so Haye will have to take what is given to him all night which is going to be the body. He has enough power to possibely hurt Klitschko and if he can manage to take some power out of Klitchko's jab he could get Wvladimir to get nervous and try to base his game around his right hand like he did early in his career leaving himself open to a knockout punch.

With all this being said it will take a perfect fight from Haye or an absolute mental Collapse from Klitschko for an upset. Two very good fighters though it will be fun to watch as haye has a style that can possibly match up well if he can find a way to get klitschko off his gameplan. which is exactly what he has been trying to do since the fight was announced.

NUB
06-27-2011, 09:22 PM
They're both kind of winding down their careers. I think it will be a matter of who wants it more as they're pretty close when it comes to fighting ability. As an underdog, I would take the Haye bet pretty easily.

BTW, Tomasz Adamek is finally gonna fight the other Klitschko later this year. The only genuinely interesting heavyweight fight I can think of in quite some time.

ZONA
06-28-2011, 03:22 AM
Klitschko's whole fighting style is designed around his left jab and his right straight using his reach and power as his defense. You will hardly ever see him be the aggressor until he feels his opponent is either worn down or hurt in which case he has a very good feel for when it is time to become the aggressor. He likes to let other boxers beat themselves for the most part like Zona said they often times get frustrated by the fact that they cannot get past his jab.

Without a doubt Klitschko has one of the most powerful jabs of all time if not the most powerful. I have seen him beat several opponents with his jab alone at least one knockout with it off of memory. So while your trying to get inside he simply steps back and gives you a left jab that feels like a normal fighters right straight.

With that being said his best weapon is his right straight, while his jab is the main stay of his defense his right straight is what brings it all together. The second you discover a way past his jab and try to throw a punch he will immediately come in with his right straight which if it lands can end the fight at any moment. Remember now that because of his height he is able to punch downward with that right hand using not only the power of a 250 man but gravity along with that. So he doesn't even need to throw a hook and i can't remember ever seeing him throw more than a couple. He knows what his bread and butter is and sticks too it. He began this strategy in the first Samuel Peter fight to save his career and has been perfecting it ever since.

Honestly I don't see any way Haye can win other than a one punch wonder. He has very good agility and power, incredibly quick feet. But he will really have to work to get to spot where he can hit Klitschko. He is really going to have to be in the best shape of his career and will have to keep a fast pace throughout the whole fight. Klitschko goes to great lengths to defend his head so Haye will have to take what is given to him all night which is going to be the body. He has enough power to possibely hurt Klitschko and if he can manage to take some power out of Klitchko's jab he could get Wvladimir to get nervous and try to base his game around his right hand like he did early in his career leaving himself open to a knockout punch.

With all this being said it will take a perfect fight from Haye or an absolute mental Collapse from Klitschko for an upset. Two very good fighters though it will be fun to watch as haye has a style that can possibly match up well if he can find a way to get klitschko off his gameplan. which is exactly what he has been trying to do since the fight was announced.

Yeah, I think it's pretty much been the same game plan for Wlad's opponents. They all want to go right at him with high energy and a fast pace, hoping that he might try to match their aggression which would leave more openings. But Wlad simply doesn't take the bait. He keeps that long left arm extended and that right arm cocked back ready to strike like a cobra at any time, as he back steps every so slightly making sure to keep his opponent far enough away. They end up trying to lunge inside to avoid that jab or face rub. Wlad simply then wraps them up if he feels vulnerable or he lets the right fly, sometimes that left shot hook. A the round goes on, Wlad will also push his man back to the rope and lean his 250 pounds of solid mass on the guy. Most of these guys should just lock him up and walk back with it to the ropes where the ref would break them. But they don't. They fight it and lose all sorts of energy in the process. By the mid to late rounds, their punches have nothing on them. Steward has turned Wlad into a well disciplined machine. He has a formula and it works and he sticks to it.

I think what helps make his jab so troublesome is the opponent never knows if it's a real jab with the snapping power or if it's just that toying feeler jab. Just when they think it's the toy jab, wham, wrong, it was the neck break jab. hahahaha. And he can throw a damn hard jab, but nobody thew a harder jab then Foreman. It wasn't fast but I've never seen heads snap back harder then when Foreman's sledgehammer left jab connected.

KillerBronco#76
06-28-2011, 06:08 AM
Yeah, I think it's pretty much been the same game plan for Wlad's opponents. They all want to go right at him with high energy and a fast pace, hoping that he might try to match their aggression which would leave more openings. But Wlad simply doesn't take the bait. He keeps that long left arm extended and that right arm cocked back ready to strike like a cobra at any time, as he back steps every so slightly making sure to keep his opponent far enough away. They end up trying to lunge inside to avoid that jab or face rub. Wlad simply then wraps them up if he feels vulnerable or he lets the right fly, sometimes that left shot hook. A the round goes on, Wlad will also push his man back to the rope and lean his 250 pounds of solid mass on the guy. Most of these guys should just lock him up and walk back with it to the ropes where the ref would break them. But they don't. They fight it and lose all sorts of energy in the process. By the mid to late rounds, their punches have nothing on them. Steward has turned Wlad into a well disciplined machine. He has a formula and it works and he sticks to it.

I think what helps make his jab so troublesome is the opponent never knows if it's a real jab with the snapping power or if it's just that toying feeler jab. Just when they think it's the toy jab, wham, wrong, it was the neck break jab. hahahaha. And he can throw a damn hard jab, but nobody thew a harder jab then Foreman. It wasn't fast but I've never seen heads snap back harder then when Foreman's sledgehammer left jab connected.

Can't argue with Forman, I guess I give Klitschko's jab a little more credit than he deserves in the power department just because it is so quick for how hard he can hit. But your right he does like to let leave that left arm arm out sometimes like man fighting a midget just to keep them away and when they get tired of it and forget he can actually throw a real punch he likes to give them a nice reminder. Its funny because everyone knows its coming its like clockwork in every fight but it works every time.

I would love to see how Lennox Lewis would have fought Wvlad. The problem is that there is no one who has enough skill and enough reach to match him at this point. Wvlad was knocked down three times against a taller larger opponent in Peter and still got up to win I just don't see Haye having more power than Peter had.

RunSilentRunDeep
07-02-2011, 06:12 PM
Haye proved today the bigger the mouth, the smaller the balls. That was a joke.

SonOfLe-loLang
07-02-2011, 06:58 PM
Can't argue with Forman, I guess I give Klitschko's jab a little more credit than he deserves in the power department just because it is so quick for how hard he can hit. But your right he does like to let leave that left arm arm out sometimes like man fighting a midget just to keep them away and when they get tired of it and forget he can actually throw a real punch he likes to give them a nice reminder. Its funny because everyone knows its coming its like clockwork in every fight but it works every time.

I would love to see how Lennox Lewis would have fought Wvlad. The problem is that there is no one who has enough skill and enough reach to match him at this point. Wvlad was knocked down three times against a taller larger opponent in Peter and still got up to win I just don't see Haye having more power than Peter had.

I was at an event with both Wlad and Lennox recently and Wlad can certainly take him now...Lewis let himself go a bit

McDman
07-02-2011, 09:38 PM
The heavyweight division of boxing is such a joke now. It's one of the main reason boxing is a shadow of it's former self.

Honestly, the only fight that has mass appeal right now is Pacquiao/Mayweather and that doesn't look like it's going to happen.

Cito Pelon
07-02-2011, 11:16 PM
I'm surprised 3 people voted for Haye. Klitshko is a very skilled boxer, has good power also.

I think he's one of the best all time. Even back in the heyday of heavyweight boxing with Ali, Foreman, Ken Norton, Joe Frazier, Larry Holmes I think he could have done well.

With that jab he has and his good movement, his reach, he could have competed well against all of the all-time greats. The guy is a technician.

Some of the relentless brawlers like Frazier, Joe Louis could have KO'd him, Tyson maybe. Another technician like Ali or Holmes could have beat him on decision.

NUB
07-03-2011, 12:18 AM
The Klitschkos are very good boxers, but they dominate this era because they're swimming in the smallest heavyweight pond in boxing history. They have both been beaten by marginal talent and Vitali got mangled by Lennox Lewis. They get by heavily on being way taller and bigger than everyone they face. Haye is a joke. He could have been in this fight, but he was too scared or in it for the money. These kinds of fights are very destructive to the sport of boxing along with the absurd score-cards I see about once every three fights.

KillerBronco#76
07-03-2011, 01:42 AM
The Klitschkos are very good boxers, but they dominate this era because they're swimming in the smallest heavyweight pond in boxing history. They have both been beaten by marginal talent and Vitali got mangled by Lennox Lewis. They get by heavily on being way taller and bigger than everyone they face. Haye is a joke. He could have been in this fight, but he was too scared or in it for the money. These kinds of fights are very destructive to the sport of boxing along with the absurd score-cards I see about once every three fights.

The problem is the Klitschkos are the only legitimate Elite fighters in the division. As far as Lenox there is a reason he retired rather than have a rematch against Vitali. Vitali was cut from a punch that never should have been thrown in reality the referee had no control of the fighters holding. In fact as far as I remember Lewis was getting dominated and all his quality punches were the results of holds. Lewis lost 6 rounds and won by a technicality it is one of the lowest points in boxing. What could have been one of the greatest moments in sports history turned into a joke. Marciano once finished a fight with his upper lip literaly split in two pieces, that win for lewis was the beginning of the end for boxing as all respectability was lost for the sport in america after seeing that. Lewis knew he did not stand a chance in a rematch and retired which is really the sad part for it did not allow for a passing of the torch which would have happened. The only real elite fight around is the brother vs. brother which will never happen. Boxing in the U.S. is dieing.... in my oppinion because of that fight...

and as far as the Haye fight it honestly wasn't a whole lot different than what alot of people expected... Haye waiting for Wvlad to make a mistake and the mistake never happening these fighters fail to understand these guys have doctorate degrees they aren't the type of men to let their emotions control them...

NUB
07-03-2011, 04:35 AM
I think Lewis deserves more credit for the fight and what happened after. Judging by the googles the scorecards were 58-56 Klitschko at the half-way point. I think Lewis takes that even if they don't stop it because that cut was so awful there is no way Klitschko sees anything out of it. If Lewis doesn't box Vitali into the ground then he simply punches that gash more and more open. I can't fault Lewis for retiring. He had already done and seen it all at that point and was getting up there in the years. I think he turned down quite a few dollars to not fight Klitschko again. If Lewis had an unbeaten record to protect I could see your point, but I think he was just done with boxing, period.

I doubt the "elite" rating of either of the Klitschkos. I feel if they didn't simply outsize every single opponent, almost all of which are mediocre to begin with, they'd just be Kotelniks of the heavyweight division. I think they both have very average chins and can be consistently cut. They get away with it all because both of them can just go around the ring repeatedly throwing jabs and out-ranging their fat, slow opponents. Watching more than one Klitschko fight can be redundant. You know what they're going to do and you know their opponent is gonna be a slow sack of suck.

Jason in LA
07-03-2011, 10:14 AM
That was the first time I'd seen Haye fight, might be the last time. That guy was all talk and hype. But he surely did cash in. What was it, like $15 million? Dude got a 50/50 split. He knew what he was doing.

gunns
07-03-2011, 10:35 AM
The heavyweight division of boxing is such a joke now. It's one of the main reason boxing is a shadow of it's former self.

Honestly, the only fight that has mass appeal right now is Pacquiao/Mayweather and that doesn't look like it's going to happen.

So true and boxing, overall, has glided downwards since it's heyday. Actually seemed to start when the Klitschko's came into prominence. Not blaming them, because as I said all of boxing has gone downhill. Loved hating Holmes, Hagler, and Tyson. Now I just get to hate Mayweather.

McDman
07-03-2011, 12:33 PM
So true and boxing, overall, has glided downwards since it's heyday. Actually seemed to start when the Klitschko's came into prominence. Not blaming them, because as I said all of boxing has gone downhill. Loved hating Holmes, Hagler, and Tyson. Now I just get to hate Mayweather.

The Klitschkos are boring fighters, they are not exciting to watch. Lewis was the last exciting dominate heavyweight that brought anything to the sport. The fights between him and Rahman were awesome.

The best fight I've ever seen was the Castillo/Corrales fight. Coralles went down twice in the tenth and lost a point, gets up and beats Castillo. Amazing.

BroncoInferno
07-03-2011, 02:19 PM
I think Lewis deserves more credit for the fight and what happened after. Judging by the googles the scorecards were 58-56 Klitschko at the half-way point. I think Lewis takes that even if they don't stop it because that cut was so awful there is no way Klitschko sees anything out of it. If Lewis doesn't box Vitali into the ground then he simply punches that gash more and more open. I can't fault Lewis for retiring. He had already done and seen it all at that point and was getting up there in the years. I think he turned down quite a few dollars to not fight Klitschko again. If Lewis had an unbeaten record to protect I could see your point, but I think he was just done with boxing, period.

I doubt the "elite" rating of either of the Klitschkos. I feel if they didn't simply outsize every single opponent, almost all of which are mediocre to begin with, they'd just be Kotelniks of the heavyweight division. I think they both have very average chins and can be consistently cut. They get away with it all because both of them can just go around the ring repeatedly throwing jabs and out-ranging their fat, slow opponents. Watching more than one Klitschko fight can be redundant. You know what they're going to do and you know their opponent is gonna be a slow sack of suck.

But that's just it, you can't just dismiss their size, that's part of the package. They would have been competitive with any heavyweight in history thanks to the complete package of size, pure boxing skills, and discipline they have. Either Klitschko brother would have absolutely devastated guys like Frazier and Marciano because they would have been too small to compete with them. You can't dismiss their size anymore than you can dismiss Wilt Chamberlain's size in basketball, it's part of the package that contributes to their greatness. Yes, their fights are often boring, but honestly I think 75% of that is because their opponents (like Haye) know they have little chance and spend the entire fight running for their lives just trying to make it to the final bell.

As far as Haye goes, anyone who saw his fight with Valuev should not have been surprised by the way he fought. Unfortunately for him, Wlad is a helluva a lot more skilled than that sasquatch.

And as far as the quality of boxing overall...yes, the heavyweight division is pretty terrible right now, but there are a TON of good fights being made in the lower weight classes. Don't judge boxing by this fight...tune in two weeks from now for the Amir Khan-Zab Judah junior welterweight unification bout. I'm pretty confident you'll walk away more impressed.

Bronco Rob
07-03-2011, 06:42 PM
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Ha!

SonOfLe-loLang
07-03-2011, 08:21 PM
So true and boxing, overall, has glided downwards since it's heyday. Actually seemed to start when the Klitschko's came into prominence. Not blaming them, because as I said all of boxing has gone downhill. Loved hating Holmes, Hagler, and Tyson. Now I just get to hate Mayweather.

You hated Tyson pre rape trial?

NUB
07-03-2011, 08:23 PM
But that's just it, you can't just dismiss their size, that's part of the package. They would have been competitive with any heavyweight in history thanks to the complete package of size, pure boxing skills, and discipline they have. Either Klitschko brother would have absolutely devastated guys like Frazier and Marciano because they would have been too small to compete with them. You can't dismiss their size anymore than you can dismiss Wilt Chamberlain's size in basketball, it's part of the package that contributes to their greatness. Yes, their fights are often boring, but honestly I think 75% of that is because their opponents (like Haye) know they have little chance and spend the entire fight running for their lives just trying to make it to the final bell.

As far as Haye goes, anyone who saw his fight with Valuev should not have been surprised by the way he fought. Unfortunately for him, Wlad is a helluva a lot more skilled than that sasquatch.

And as far as the quality of boxing overall...yes, the heavyweight division is pretty terrible right now, but there are a TON of good fights being made in the lower weight classes. Don't judge boxing by this fight...tune in two weeks from now for the Amir Khan-Zab Judah junior welterweight unification bout. I'm pretty confident you'll walk away more impressed.

Devastated Frazier and Marciano? Hell no. Can't believe that was just said, or the previous "hang with the heavyweight greats". The Klitschkos have not faced notable talent anywhere. Vitali faced an out of shape, aging Lennox Lewis and got beat. He also gave up when fighting Byrd. This is crap. Wladimir lost to glorious names like Corrie Sanders and Lamon Brewster.

This isn't elite competition, it's barely even mid-tier. These are big dudes who are facing nobody for competition. Frazier and Marciano would have mopped the floor with both of them. If Wladimir gets rocked by Sanders and Brewster, how is he gonna handle a brawler like Marciano? Or a mega-hitter like Frazier? Both of which have huge chins and heart themselves, something neither of the Klitschkos have. Even 2nd-tier heavyweights during the 1970s like Jerry Quarry could beat the Klitschkos. The Klitschkos are good boxers, but they are definitely not all-time great. If they were elite they would both be unbeaten, but they're not because they have huge flaws in their games that their size, and lack of competition, doesn't bring out. They both show a lack of chin, heart and boxing ability whenever they're not allowed to walk around the ring throwing jabs at slow moving targets. Comparing them to all-time greats like Frazier and Marciano is a friggin' joke.

KillerBronco#76
07-03-2011, 09:47 PM
I think Lewis takes that even if they don't stop it because that cut was so awful there is no way Klitschko sees anything out of it. If Lewis doesn't box Vitali into the ground then he simply punches that gash more and more open.


If that is what was going to happen then they should have let it happen. let Vitali punch himself out and lay in a bloody heap on the mat. Or at least let Lennox get ahead on the score cards then before calling it. How many of Marciano's fights would have been stopped by doctor?.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_8_ENa7sVpug/S9kGIGzfjmI/AAAAAAAAMPk/pBw1wDPDMQw/s400/Ezzard%2520Charles%2520vs%2520Rocky%2520Marciano.g if

gunns
07-03-2011, 09:52 PM
You hated Tyson pre rape trial?

Yes. He reminded me of Larry Holmes, dumber than a box of rocks. He could knock a guy out in the first two rounds but I kept hoping for someone that could stand with him longer because I knew he'd be worthless, didn't have the stamina. Whallaaaa, Buster Douglas. Loved it when Evander Holyfield fought him, stood with him, and when Tyson figured out he couldn't go all those rounds, he bites his ear. Friggin moron.

gunns
07-03-2011, 09:53 PM
Devastated Frazier and Marciano? Hell no. Can't believe that was just said, or the previous "hang with the heavyweight greats". The Klitschkos have not faced notable talent anywhere. Vitali faced an out of shape, aging Lennox Lewis and got beat. He also gave up when fighting Byrd. This is crap. Wladimir lost to glorious names like Corrie Sanders and Lamon Brewster.

This isn't elite competition, it's barely even mid-tier. These are big dudes who are facing nobody for competition. Frazier and Marciano would have mopped the floor with both of them. If Wladimir gets rocked by Sanders and Brewster, how is he gonna handle a brawler like Marciano? Or a mega-hitter like Frazier? Both of which have huge chins and heart themselves, something neither of the Klitschkos have. Even 2nd-tier heavyweights during the 1970s like Jerry Quarry could beat the Klitschkos. The Klitschkos are good boxers, but they are definitely not all-time great. If they were elite they would both be unbeaten, but they're not because they have huge flaws in their games that their size, and lack of competition, doesn't bring out. They both show a lack of chin, heart and boxing ability whenever they're not allowed to walk around the ring throwing jabs at slow moving targets. Comparing them to all-time greats like Frazier and Marciano is a friggin' joke.

Absolutely.

NUB
07-03-2011, 09:55 PM
If that is what was going to happen then they should have let it happen. let Vitali punch himself out and lay in a bloody heap on the mat. Or at least let Lennox get ahead on the score cards then before calling it. How many of Marciano's fights would have been stopped by doctor?.

If that fight continues then Vitali is putting his career on the line. I don't understand why that stoppage is seen as controversial. People are blinded by the first two rounds and not the last three where Vitali had slowed down considerably and was probably ready to start losing consecutive rounds. Remember, they gave Vitali three rounds to recover from that cut. Marciano probably could have been stopped by TKOs a number of times, but you're comparing apples and oranges to put his situations in with Vitali. Rocky could be hurt and still be a relentless attacker in the ring while maintaining good defense. A bleeding brawler isn't the same as a bleeding technician. Vitali was just lumbering and taking flush shots while Lewis looked, albeit out of shape and pathetically slow, completely unfazed by Vitali's punches. The only way Vitali wins that fight is if for some reason Lewis -- who can see Vitali bleeding profusely -- gives up on the chair, or if Vitali wins a decision. Do you think the doctors would let that nasty gash bleed out and take more and more punches for six more rounds?

SonOfLe-loLang
07-03-2011, 11:19 PM
Yes. He reminded me of Larry Holmes, dumber than a box of rocks. He could knock a guy out in the first two rounds but I kept hoping for someone that could stand with him longer because I knew he'd be worthless, didn't have the stamina. Whallaaaa, Buster Douglas. Loved it when Evander Holyfield fought him, stood with him, and when Tyson figured out he couldn't go all those rounds, he bites his ear. Friggin moron.

I loved watching Tyson fight, when in his prime, pre conviction. He'd obliterate people. Most of those fights were over before they even started.

KillerBronco#76
07-04-2011, 08:23 AM
If that fight continues then Vitali is putting his career on the line. I don't understand why that stoppage is seen as controversial. People are blinded by the first two rounds and not the last three where Vitali had slowed down considerably and was probably ready to start losing consecutive rounds. Remember, they gave Vitali three rounds to recover from that cut. Marciano probably could have been stopped by TKOs a number of times, but you're comparing apples and oranges to put his situations in with Vitali. Rocky could be hurt and still be a relentless attacker in the ring while maintaining good defense. A bleeding brawler isn't the same as a bleeding technician. Vitali was just lumbering and taking flush shots while Lewis looked, albeit out of shape and pathetically slow, completely unfazed by Vitali's punches. The only way Vitali wins that fight is if for some reason Lewis -- who can see Vitali bleeding profusely -- gives up on the chair, or if Vitali wins a decision. Do you think the doctors would let that nasty gash bleed out and take more and more punches for six more rounds?

To me lennox looked tired and vitali still fighting hard I don't see him lumbering and the only flush shot he took was the combination at the end of the 6th other than that it looked like lennox was the one taking the shots and Vitali knew he was cut and was trying to finish him off before the fight got stopped. Like I said they should have at least let lennox get ahead on the score card then any debate would be null and void. If the fighter feels his career is not worth risking he will throw in the towel otherwise they should leave the decision up to the fighter and his corner. I will never understand doctors calling the fight... its just another way to control the outcomes of the fight. A fighter knows what he is risking every time he steps into the ring and it should be his and his corners decision.

NUB
07-04-2011, 10:15 AM
Agree to disagree on the Lewis/Klitschko fight. I do think the question of whether or not a fighter should be able to fight as long as he wants to is an interesting one. I'm not sure what to make of it. On one hand, Klitschko could have continued to fight with one eye. On the other, that's what fighters do. It's why "throwing in the towel" exists because your good fighters don't know how to quit and will put themselves in serious danger because of it. I don't know how many times I've seen a clearly concussed fighter get up and get absolutely ravaged because his corner failed to protect him. And that is really what it is about, protecting the fighter. I think Vitali not continuing that fight was best for his career.

BroncoInferno
07-04-2011, 12:36 PM
Devastated Frazier and Marciano? Hell no. Can't believe that was just said, or the previous "hang with the heavyweight greats". The Klitschkos have not faced notable talent anywhere. Vitali faced an out of shape, aging Lennox Lewis and got beat. He also gave up when fighting Byrd. This is crap. Wladimir lost to glorious names like Corrie Sanders and Lamon Brewster.

This isn't elite competition, it's barely even mid-tier. These are big dudes who are facing nobody for competition. Frazier and Marciano would have mopped the floor with both of them. If Wladimir gets rocked by Sanders and Brewster, how is he gonna handle a brawler like Marciano? Or a mega-hitter like Frazier? Both of which have huge chins and heart themselves, something neither of the Klitschkos have. Even 2nd-tier heavyweights during the 1970s like Jerry Quarry could beat the Klitschkos. The Klitschkos are good boxers, but they are definitely not all-time great. If they were elite they would both be unbeaten, but they're not because they have huge flaws in their games that their size, and lack of competition, doesn't bring out. They both show a lack of chin, heart and boxing ability whenever they're not allowed to walk around the ring throwing jabs at slow moving targets. Comparing them to all-time greats like Frazier and Marciano is a friggin' joke.

If you really believe that, then you are simply ignorant of boxing. How would Marciano or Frazier "mop the floor" with Vitali or Wlad with their sub-6 foot size and short reach? Tell me the strategy that would have done the job, not just meaningless platitudes about "heart and chins." Either Frazier or Marciano would have gotten jabbed to death. Even if they did manage to get past the jab and get inside, they would have been crushed in a vice grip. Say what you want about the Klitschko tactic of holding on the inside, but it is smart and wears down their smaller opponents, giving them no chance to do effective work on the inside. Remember how Ali wore down Frazier in their 2nd and 3rd fights by clutching him inside and pushing down on his head? And Ali only weighed something like 220. What kind of energy do you think Frazier'd have after getting leaned on by the 250 pound Wlad for 12 rounds? Neither Marciano or Frazier would be able to get the proper leverage on their punches to land effectively. They wouldn't have a chance to do any effective work inside. They'd barely be able to land a punch. It would be a physical mismatch of epic proportions. You are criticizing the brothers for losses YEARS in the past. Vitali, in particular, has never shown a problem with his chin. His only questionable loss was to Chris Byrd 12 years ago, in a fight he was winning easily, when he quit on his stool with a badly seperated shoulder. I think he has more than proven that to be an aberration, particularly in his gutty fight with Lewis. It's fair to question Wlad's chin, but his defense has gotten so good that no one can land a decent punch on him anymore. Neither brother has been remotely challenged in six or seven years. Yes, the opposition stinks, but so did Tyson's and (for the most) Larry Holmes'. Joe Louis' competition was pretty pathetic, too (his no-hope opponents were dubbed the "Bum of the Month Club"). You can only fight the guys available to you in your era, and they've fought all the top guys and dominated them. They would have been competitive in any era. LOL I can't believe you said Jerry Quarry would have beaten them, that is just laughable ignorance, he would have gotten bounced off the mat within two rounds. Those guys were simply too small to have any real chance beyond landing a lucky, wild punch. Do you give any consideration to physical matchups and styles when making such ludicrous claims? You are proving my point though...the Klitschko's are highly underated.

Cito Pelon
07-04-2011, 12:55 PM
If you really believe that, then you are simply ignorant of boxing. How would Marciano or Frazier "mop the floor" with Vitali or Wlad with their sub-6 foot size and short reach? Tell me the strategy that would have done the job, not just meaningless platitudes about "heart and chins." Either Frazier or Marciano would have gotten jabbed to death. Even if they did manage to get past the jab and get inside, they would have been crushed in a vice grip. Say what you want about the Klitschko tactic of holding on the inside, but it is smart and wears down their smaller opponents, giving them no chance to do effective work on the inside. Neither Marciano or Frazier would be able to get the proper leverage on their punches to land effectively. They wouldn't have a chance to do any effective work inside. They'd barely be able to land a punch. It would be a physical mismatch of epic proportions. You are criticizing the brother for losses YEARS in the past. Vitali, in particular, has never shown a problem with his chin. His only questionable loss was to Chris Byrd 12 years ago, in a fight he was winning easily, when he quit on his stool with a badly seperated shoulder. I think he has more than proven that to be an aberration, particularly in his gutty fight with Lewis. Neither have been remotely challenged in six or seven years. Yes, the opposition stinks, but so did Tyson's and (for the most) Larry Holmes'. Joe Louis' competition was pretty pathetic, too (his no-hope opponents were dubbed the "Bum of the Month Club"). You can only fight the guys available to you in your era, and they've fought all the top guys and dominated them. They would have been competitive in any era. LOL I can't believe you said Jerry Quarry would have beaten them, that is just laughable ignorance, he would have gotten bounced off the mat within two rounds. Those guys were simply too small to have any real chance beyond landing a lucky, wild punch. Do you give any consideration to physical matchups and styles when making such ludicrous claims? You are proving my point though...the Klitschko's are highly underated.

Yeah, I agree the Klitschko's would have been competitive in any era with their size, movement, skills.

BroncoInferno
07-04-2011, 01:28 PM
Yeah, I agree the Klitschko's would have been competitive in any era with their size, movement, skills.

Let me make clear that I am not trying to claim that the brothers are some unstoppable force who would have dominated all the greats of yesteryear. I am simply saying (correctly) that their combination size, boxing skills, ring smarts and athleticism would have allowed them to be competitive in any era. I mentioned Marciano and Frazier in particular because those are two all-time greats who would have been hard pressed to even be competitive against the brothers because of the combination of the size descrepancy and the style the brothers fight, which would have made it close to impossible for Frazier or Marciano to land a clean punch from a distance or to accomplish any effective inside work. Certainly, though, their are other greats who would have matched up more favorably. Obviously, Lennox Lewis beat Vitali and had excellent size, skills and speed. I'd certainly favor a prime Foreman over either brother, as well as Larry Holmes. You can't just be nostalgic about these things, though....you have to look at each individual matchup and the strengths/weakness of each fighter. There is no way Marciano or Frazier matchup favorably with either brother. To say otherwise is just an example of old-fogeyism.

NUB
07-04-2011, 04:36 PM
If you really believe that, then you are simply ignorant of boxing. How would Marciano or Frazier "mop the floor" with Vitali or Wlad with their sub-6 foot size and short reach? Tell me the strategy that would have done the job, not just meaningless platitudes about "heart and chins." Either Frazier or Marciano would have gotten jabbed to death. Even if they did manage to get past the jab and get inside, they would have been crushed in a vice grip. Say what you want about the Klitschko tactic of holding on the inside, but it is smart and wears down their smaller opponents, giving them no chance to do effective work on the inside. Remember how Ali wore down Frazier in their 2nd and 3rd fights by clutching him inside and pushing down on his head? And Ali only weighed something like 220. What kind of energy do you think Frazier'd have after getting leaned on by the 250 pound Wlad for 12 rounds? Neither Marciano or Frazier would be able to get the proper leverage on their punches to land effectively. They wouldn't have a chance to do any effective work inside. They'd barely be able to land a punch. It would be a physical mismatch of epic proportions. You are criticizing the brothers for losses YEARS in the past. Vitali, in particular, has never shown a problem with his chin. His only questionable loss was to Chris Byrd 12 years ago, in a fight he was winning easily, when he quit on his stool with a badly seperated shoulder. I think he has more than proven that to be an aberration, particularly in his gutty fight with Lewis. It's fair to question Wlad's chin, but his defense has gotten so good that no one can land a decent punch on him anymore. Neither brother has been remotely challenged in six or seven years. Yes, the opposition stinks, but so did Tyson's and (for the most) Larry Holmes'. Joe Louis' competition was pretty pathetic, too (his no-hope opponents were dubbed the "Bum of the Month Club"). You can only fight the guys available to you in your era, and they've fought all the top guys and dominated them. They would have been competitive in any era. LOL I can't believe you said Jerry Quarry would have beaten them, that is just laughable ignorance, he would have gotten bounced off the mat within two rounds. Those guys were simply too small to have any real chance beyond landing a lucky, wild punch. Do you give any consideration to physical matchups and styles when making such ludicrous claims? You are proving my point though...the Klitschko's are highly underated.

Styles make fights, not physical builds. Pretty simple to answer. I think the fact you base these ideas on the foundations of a bunch of scrubs the Klitschkos have beaten and lost to is patently more ridiculous. The Klitschkos have beaten literally no one. Samuel Peters, maybe? A fat Arreola? Kirk Johnson? David Haye has arguably been their best challenger yet, and he just laid down for the paycheck. I think Samuel Peters has offered the best fights they have had.

What kind of fights do the Klitschkos like to employ? Technical, drawn-out jabbing matches. This is actually fantastic against low-tier opponents who don't have a smattering of footwork or quickness -- which is just about every single opponent they have faced. Both Frazier and Marciano were exceptionally quick for heavyweights and both had solid defenses -- I can't think of a single Klitschko opponent who compares to either of them. If you want a more modern example, take Mike Tyson (who I think based his style off of Marciano, but I may be mixing him up with someone else). Tyson was a "small" heavyweight too, so how did he beat far taller opponents? Because he moved inside past the jabs of taller opponents and fought the way he wanted to.

The Klitschkos have had good grace to fight in an era where being a technician in the heavyweight division is king. Their inherent tallness is simply a bonus. The fact a light-heavyweight with no power like Tomasz Adamek is cruising through this era's heavyweight ranks says everything there is to know about this era of heavyweight fighters. They are good fighters, but you start making egregious overstatements by comparing them to all-time greats because they're capable of beating cans and "avenging losses" by beating more cans.