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Chris
06-17-2011, 01:35 PM
So dudes I just recently completed "Battle Cry of Freedom" on the Civil War era by Whosahuzza Mcpherson which I think may be the best history book I've ever read. I read "The Killer Angels" before that. I've just started "1776" by David Mcullough.

What US history books can you recommend?

I'm a bit of a US history newbie so I'm a bit of a blank slate.

I've heard "Roughing it" by Mark Twain and Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee are good.

24champ
06-17-2011, 01:39 PM
http://bookgroupbuzz.booklistonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/public-enemies.jpg


Wasn't a big fan of the movie, but the book is great.

Chris
06-17-2011, 01:45 PM
Ah my bro read that and said it was immense.

Archer81
06-17-2011, 01:48 PM
Actually anything by McCullough is a good read. There is a World at Arms by Gerhard L. Weinberg about WW2. Big book. The Twelve Caesars by Suetonius, Triumverate by Bruce Chadwick and Theodore Rex by Edmund Morris.

:Broncos:

Chris
06-17-2011, 01:50 PM
I like Mccullough both as a personality and an author but I have to say that in contrast to Mcpheron this book reads like amateur hour (still a fine book).

TheElusiveKyleOrton
06-17-2011, 01:51 PM
Don't know if you're into historical fiction (focusing on fictional characters during historic times), but The Winds of War and War and Remembrance were both awesome.

http://www.amazon.com/Winds-War-Herman-Wouk/dp/0316955167

http://www.amazon.com/War-Remembrance-Herman-Wouk/dp/0316954993

Chris
06-17-2011, 01:56 PM
Absorutery.

broncocalijohn
06-17-2011, 01:58 PM
Don't know if you're into historical fiction (focusing on fictional characters during historic times), but The Winds of War and War and Remembrance were both awesome.

http://www.amazon.com/Winds-War-Herman-Wouk/dp/0316955167

http://www.amazon.com/War-Remembrance-Herman-Wouk/dp/0316954993

I thought John Jakes books on Revolutionary times and also the North vs South books were a great read in my early teenage years. How I found Patrick Swayze as an actor on the epic mini series of North vs South.
BTW Chris, you studying up to become an American?

Archer81
06-17-2011, 01:59 PM
Don't know if you're into historical fiction (focusing on fictional characters during historic times), but The Winds of War and War and Remembrance were both awesome.

http://www.amazon.com/Winds-War-Herman-Wouk/dp/0316955167

http://www.amazon.com/War-Remembrance-Herman-Wouk/dp/0316954993


I have both of these books, and just recently reread them. Also watching Winds of War on Netflix and getting War and Remembrance on dvd.

Fantastic books by Herman Wouk.


:Broncos:

Chris
06-17-2011, 02:03 PM
I was given the Shelby Foote series on the Civil War for Christmas. Seems like a lot to tackle right after BCOF. Has anyone read these?

BroncoInferno
06-17-2011, 02:03 PM
Theodore Rex by Edmund Morris.

That is Volume II of Morris' three volume biography on TR. I just completed Volume I, The Rise of Theodore Roosevelt, a couple of nights ago. One of the best biographies I've read. I'm look forward to sinking my teeth into Theodore Rex this weekend.

Archer81
06-17-2011, 02:06 PM
That is Volume II of Morris' three volume biography on TR. I just completed Volume I, The Rise of Theodore Roosevelt, a couple of nights ago. One of the best biographies I've read. I'm look forward to sinking my teeth into Theodore Rex this weekend.


You wont be disappointed with it. Good read.


:Broncos:

worm
06-17-2011, 02:09 PM
Undaunted Courage by Stephen Ambrose.

BroncoInferno
06-17-2011, 02:14 PM
You wont be disappointed with it. Good read.


:Broncos:

Have you read all three volumes (Colonel Roosevelt, the third volume, was just released last year)? Just curious if Morris wrote the volumes in such a way that reading them in order would be unnecessary. Since I started out mainly interested in TR's presidency, I was considering skipping over Volume I, which deals with his life up through McKinnley's assassination. But I was worried the flow would be off. Glad I started from the beginning. I would have missed a fascinating read. Gilded Age politics are much more interesting than I thought.

Archer81
06-17-2011, 02:17 PM
Have you read all three volumes (Colonel Roosevelt, the third volume, was just released last year)? Just curious if Morris wrote the volumes in such a way that reading them in order would be unnecessary. Since I started out mainly interested in TR's presidency, I was considering skipping over Volume I, which deals with his life up through McKinnley's assassination. But I was worried the flow would be off. Glad I started from the beginning. I would have missed a fascinating read. Gilded Age politics are much more interesting than I thought.


I didnt think it was a 3 volume set, and I found Theodore Rex readable on its own. I need to go get the other two volumes.


:Broncos:

Archer81
06-17-2011, 02:22 PM
A. Lincoln, biography by Ronald C. White is a good one. Also A Patriots History of the United States: From Columbus' Great Discovery to the War on Terror by Larry Schweikart and Michael Allen.


:Broncos:

Drunk Monkey
06-17-2011, 02:23 PM
Don't know if you're into historical fiction (focusing on fictional characters during historic times), but The Winds of War and War and Remembrance were both awesome.

http://www.amazon.com/Winds-War-Herman-Wouk/dp/0316955167

http://www.amazon.com/War-Remembrance-Herman-Wouk/dp/0316954993

Along those lines

http://www.amazon.com/Semper-Fi-Corps-Book-1/dp/0515087491/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308345743&sr=1-1

read the series years ago but enjoyed it.

Bronco Yoda
06-17-2011, 02:23 PM
Ok it's a little nerdy... But I enjoyed 'The Journals of Lewis and Clark'. I went and found a leather bound edition.

TailgateNut
06-17-2011, 02:42 PM
So dudes I just recently completed "Battle Cry of Freedom" on the Civil War era by Whosahuzza Mcpherson which I think may be the best history book I've ever read. I read "The Killer Angels" before that. I've just started "1776" by David Mcullough.

What US history books can you recommend?

I'm a bit of a US history newbie so I'm a bit of a blank slate.

I've heard "Roughing it" by Mark Twain and Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee are good.

The ones which spell favorite correct, not the Queens english version.

Chris
06-17-2011, 02:48 PM
The ones which spell favorite correct, not the Queens english version.

Do they have to spell correctly incorrectly? !Booya!

Requiem
06-17-2011, 03:10 PM
Where's Waldini.

Chris
06-17-2011, 03:31 PM
I thought John Jakes books on Revolutionary times and also the North vs South books were a great read in my early teenage years. How I found Patrick Swayze as an actor on the epic mini series of North vs South.
BTW Chris, you studying up to become an American?

Technically I am American (US passport and all that jazz) plus at this point if you talked to me you'd have to listen hard to tell otherwise.

I think that Americans tell stories really well... and it's dramatic history in fast forward.

sisterhellfyre
06-17-2011, 03:37 PM
I liked "A Peoples' History of the United States: 1492 to Present" by Howard Zinn.

It's probably not a real popular book on this forum, but it's a great alternate read on American history from a "follow the money-who wants it-how do they get it-how do they protect it" perspective. I learned a lot from this book about the history behind the history: what the public schools don't teach in the Disney-fied, canonized, whitewashed mythology of America.

It was in this book, for instance, that I first heard of Gen. Smedley Butler and how he stood up to a cabal of Wall Streeters and heavy industrialists who wanted to mount a coup against FDR. Names like Dow and DuPont... but Gen. Butler stayed true to the oath of his military service to protect and defend the Constitution. That's some guts right there. :-)

elsid13
06-17-2011, 04:19 PM
Peter Maas - The Terrible Hours
http://www.amazon.com/Terrible-Hours-Peter-Maas/dp/0061014591

Obushma
06-17-2011, 05:42 PM
Tragedy and Hope
Carroll Quigley

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/1425/quigly.jpg

The Creature from Jekyll Island
G Edward Griffin

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/6405/creaturet.jpg

Chris
06-17-2011, 05:46 PM
I liked "A Peoples' History of the United States: 1492 to Present" by Howard Zinn.

It's probably not a real popular book on this forum, but it's a great alternate read on American history from a "follow the money-who wants it-how do they get it-how do they protect it" perspective. I learned a lot from this book about the history behind the history: what the public schools don't teach in the Disney-fied, canonized, whitewashed mythology of America.

It was in this book, for instance, that I first heard of Gen. Smedley Butler and how he stood up to a cabal of Wall Streeters and heavy industrialists who wanted to mount a coup against FDR. Names like Dow and DuPont... but Gen. Butler stayed true to the oath of his military service to protect and defend the Constitution. That's some guts right there. :-)

I've heard it's pretty polarising. Sounds like a bold book.

Mogulseeker
06-17-2011, 05:54 PM
This book from Stephen Ambrose:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41-sSY3IfbL._SS500_.jpg

Is one of my favorite books.

Mogulseeker
06-17-2011, 05:56 PM
I've heard it's pretty polarising. Sounds like a bold book.

He is. It is... he's kind of a lefty, as are a lot of historians, but I do respect Howard Zinn quite a bit.

Pendejo
06-17-2011, 06:38 PM
I liked "A Peoples' History of the United States: 1492 to Present" by Howard Zinn.

It's probably not a real popular book on this forum, but it's a great alternate read on American history from a "follow the money-who wants it-how do they get it-how do they protect it" perspective. I learned a lot from this book about the history behind the history: what the public schools don't teach in the Disney-fied, canonized, whitewashed mythology of America.

It was in this book, for instance, that I first heard of Gen. Smedley Butler and how he stood up to a cabal of Wall Streeters and heavy industrialists who wanted to mount a coup against FDR. Names like Dow and DuPont... but Gen. Butler stayed true to the oath of his military service to protect and defend the Constitution. That's some guts right there. :-)

I recently took a pass on this one. However, after reading your flowery review...it's on. If it is not good I will put you on ignore so fast!

As to the topic at hand I really liked both Hell's Angels by Hunter S. Thompson, and The Electric Kool-aid Acid Test by Tom Wolfe. Both books are of course very well written, and provide what I feel to be in depth looks at two differing groups of the counter-culture of the sixties...Ken Kesey's "Merry Pranksters", and of course the Hell's Angels.

SouthStndJunkie
06-17-2011, 06:38 PM
Undaunted Courage by Stephen Ambrose.

That was the first book that I thought of.

Excellent read.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
06-17-2011, 06:43 PM
I liked "A Peoples' History of the United States: 1492 to Present" by Howard Zinn.

It's probably not a real popular book on this forum, but it's a great alternate read on American history from a "follow the money-who wants it-how do they get it-how do they protect it" perspective. I learned a lot from this book about the history behind the history: what the public schools don't teach in the Disney-fied, canonized, whitewashed mythology of America.

It was in this book, for instance, that I first heard of Gen. Smedley Butler and how he stood up to a cabal of Wall Streeters and heavy industrialists who wanted to mount a coup against FDR. Names like Dow and DuPont... but Gen. Butler stayed true to the oath of his military service to protect and defend the Constitution. That's some guts right there. :-)

Off to find this on Amazon. Thanks for the tip... sounds awesome.

Mogulseeker
06-17-2011, 07:11 PM
A couple more of my favorite history books:

http://i43.tower.com/images/mm101707781/states-reemergence-global-finance-from-bretton-woods-1990s-eric-helleiner-paperback-cover-art.jpg

http://images.bookbyte.com/isbn.aspx?isbn=9780140268317

American Political Science History textbook I read in college, that was really good:
http://i43.tower.com/images/mm113724042/we-people-2011-thomas-patterson-paperback-cover-art.jpg

Not a history book per-se, but uses a lot of history in its analysis:
http://betweenthetimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/clash_civilizations.jpg

Archer81
06-17-2011, 07:43 PM
Not a history book per-se, but uses a lot of history in its analysis:
http://betweenthetimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/clash_civilizations.jpg


I have that one. Very interesting.


:Broncos:

GoBroncos84
06-17-2011, 08:00 PM
A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn is BY FAR the best history book I have ever read. It is one of those books that upon reading it you feel it should be mandatory reading for all citizens. There have even been some good documentaries done on it. After reading the book, I recommend watching "The People Speak".

The book:
http://www.amazon.com/Peoples-History-United-States-1492-Present/dp/0060528370

The People Speak:
http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/The_People_Speak/70118365?trkid=2361637

TailgateNut
06-17-2011, 08:49 PM
Do they have to spell correctly incorrectly? !Booya!

touche'

broncosteven
06-17-2011, 10:37 PM
I am not as big a US History geek as I am a Gene Kranz/NASA/Space Geek but these are some of the books I have read recently and seeing how the space race dominated the 50's, 60's and early 70's I will include some of the great NASA Books.

1) With the old breed at Peleliu, They stayed pretty close to this book for the Pacific series, great TV doc but this book is an even better read and stands on it's own as a work of art that shows the brutalities of war

http://www.amazon.com/Old-Breed-At-Peleliu-Okinawa/dp/0195067142

2) "The longest day" was a great read also.

3) I am up way past the bed time I will post more in the AM

mhgaffney
06-18-2011, 01:07 AM
Samuel Hungtington is a fraud.

There is no clash of civilizations. The clash is between the haves and have nots.

Archer81
06-18-2011, 01:11 AM
Samuel Hungtington is a fraud.

There is no clash of civilizations. The clash is between the haves and have nots.


Shocked you would find a book describing the incompatibility of Islam and the West to be a fraud.

Judas.


:Broncos:

houghtam
06-18-2011, 01:37 AM
The Killer Angels is a poor representation of actually history. It's a book that reads very well, but it's nothing more than historical fiction.

As a practicing Civil War re-enactor and long-time history scholar, I've got quite an extensive collection, and between my dad, my brothers and I, I would recommend the following on Civil War history:

Pickett's Charge: A microhistory of Lee's Final Attack
Hardtack & Coffee
The Life of Billy Yank/Johnny Reb
We Were the Ninth (Die Neuner)
Soldiering: The Civil War Diary of Rice C. Bull
A Yankee Private's Civil War
The Union Soldier in Battle: Enduring the Ordeal of Combat
Wolf of the Deep (for you Civil War naval enthusiasts...great account of the CSS Alabama)

Currently reading:

A German Hurrah!
and
The Rifle Musket in Civil War Combat: Myth and Reality

All are excellent reads...BCOF and the Foote series are good reads for an overall glossing over, but if you want true detail, my suggestion would be to pick a topic you're interested in and find something related to that. There's a wealth of information out there about the Civil War.

Mogulseeker
06-18-2011, 01:45 AM
I have that one. Very interesting.


:Broncos:

It's an extremely important book in my fields of study (International Security and Economics), but a lot of Huntington's have been debunked since it was published, I think in 1994. Although I would argue that he would have probably predicted something like 9/11 was bound to happen.

Edit - I'd like to point out that though some of his theories are wrong, as one of his students Fareed Zakariah points out here (http://www.newsweek.com/2009/01/02/sam-huntington-1927-2008.html), Huntington's basic thesis still rings true for the most part

Mogulseeker
06-18-2011, 01:48 AM
Samuel Hungtington is a fraud.

There is no clash of civilizations. The clash is between the haves and have nots.

Who should I believe?

You, who believes that someone can go 70 years without food or water.

Or Samuel Huntington, a former Harvard professor.

Cito Pelon
06-18-2011, 08:39 AM
James Michener's historical novels.

A recent Vietnam novel I read, "Matterhorn" was pretty darn good.

"The Education of Henry Adams" is a classic. You need a good background in history to really understand it.

"Democracy in America" Alexis DeTocqueville is a classic. Dude was a keen observer, a delight to read.

William Russell "Special Correspondent of The Times" has some excellent real-time descriptions of the US Civil War and America in 1881 (including Colorado). Dude was a keen observer. I'd recommend this to anybody, it also includes his reports to the London Times from the Zulu Wars, the Crimean War (excellent), the Coronation of Czar Alexander II in 1856 (very interesting real-time look at the Russian aristocracy), the Indian Mutiny in 1857 (excellent). Keep in mind Russell is sending these dispatches to the London Times every few days, this is real-time observance of actual events. It's riveting for a history buff.

Cito Pelon
06-18-2011, 09:12 AM
The Killer Angels is a poor representation of actually history. It's a book that reads very well, but it's nothing more than historical fiction.

As a practicing Civil War re-enactor and long-time history scholar, I've got quite an extensive collection, and between my dad, my brothers and I, I would recommend the following on Civil War history:

Pickett's Charge: A microhistory of Lee's Final Attack
Hardtack & Coffee
The Life of Billy Yank/Johnny Reb
We Were the Ninth (Die Neuner)
Soldiering: The Civil War Diary of Rice C. Bull
A Yankee Private's Civil War
The Union Soldier in Battle: Enduring the Ordeal of Combat
Wolf of the Deep (for you Civil War naval enthusiasts...great account of the CSS Alabama)

Currently reading:

A German Hurrah!
and
The Rifle Musket in Civil War Combat: Myth and Reality

All are excellent reads...BCOF and the Foote series are good reads for an overall glossing over, but if you want true detail, my suggestion would be to pick a topic you're interested in and find something related to that. There's a wealth of information out there about the Civil War.

Those sound pretty good, I'll check them out. Thanks.

Frisian
06-18-2011, 12:36 PM
If you like American Indian books Comanche Empire by Pekka Hämäläinen.

http://www.austinchronicle.com/binary/3886/books_readings2.jpg

It is a nice overview of the Comanches. It attempts to protray them as a powerful player during the 17th century rather than just a noble savage. It does an awesome job, in my opinion, of changing your perspective of American Indian culture.

Pontius Pirate
06-18-2011, 01:13 PM
They Marched Into Sunlight - amazing book that covers three simultaneous situations happening during October, 1967: 1) one of the worst ambushes in U.S. military history 2) a bloody Vietnam protest happening at the Univ. of Wisconsin and 3) behind the scenes of the whitehouse as the LBJ began to question U.S. involvement in Vietnam

Ghost Soldiers - an account of the Bataan Death March and the largest rescue operation in U.S. military history

Peoples History - someone already mentioned it, but it's that good

Where Men Win Glory - covers more "recent" history, but a fascinating read. Written by Krakauer. Interesting: it's main subject is Pat Tillman but it actually goes into detail about Afghanistan and the Taliban. Also, it was while writing this book that Krakauer got into making the film Restrepo and, subsequently, about investigating bogus claims made in Three Cups of Tea

Cito Pelon
06-18-2011, 01:16 PM
If you like American Indian books Comanche Empire by Pekka Hämäläinen.

http://www.austinchronicle.com/binary/3886/books_readings2.jpg

It is a nice overview of the Comanches. It attempts to protray them as a powerful player during the 17th century rather than just a noble savage. It does an awesome job, in my opinion, of changing your perspective of American Indian culture.

I read a novel about the Comanche and the Texans pursuing some Comanche captives that was very good, can't remember the name of the book or the author.

Yes, the Comanche were a powerful player in the 19th century over a huge portion of the Southwest, from north Texas the panhandle area, through Oklahoma's panhandle and southwest Kansas, northeast New Mexico and southern Colorado. The Comanche controlled a huge swath of those states.

BroncoBuff
06-18-2011, 02:59 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fc/Ggas_human_soc.jpg/200px-Ggas_human_soc.jpg . . .http://i43.tower.com/images/mm107430362/a-peoples-history-united-states-1492-present-howard-zinn-paperback-cover-art.jpg



http://img2.imagesbn.com/images/22120000/22129244.JPGhttp://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51D4EKYDHBL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

lostknight
06-18-2011, 03:16 PM
Killer Angels is historical fanfiction and about the same quality as your average furry writer's works. Zinn's books are political arguments that are very divorced from the secondary sources he cites. In general, outside of high school history classes tough by partisan teachers, it really is not considered credible by any in the Historical community (There's a very famous Harvard Historical review on the subject). They are worth reading, but only if you take a shot every time he bashes anyone white, male or anglo-saxon. Read it with some of the worst of the Triumphalist writers on the other side, and you might come up with a bit of truth at the end.

I had to go up and clear my bookshelf looking for my favorites. In reverse chronological order, my favorite books (secondary sources only):
Thomas E Ricks - The Gamble / Bing West - the Strongest Tribe. Two books by Bush skeptics on the surge in Iraq. If you want to have a opinion on the war, you need to read these books.
Lawrence Wright - The Looming Tower (Alqaeda, Taleban and 9/11 - no one has produced anything more authoritative, and probably won't until the 50 year window on NSA is up).
Kurt Echeinwald - Conspiracy of Fools (All about Enron)
Thomas Friendman - The Lexis and the Olive Tree (about globalization, some historical, some current affairs)
David Halbertsam - The Coldest Winter (All about the Korean War)
Douglas Keeny - 15 Minutes: Curtis Lemay the countdown to nuclear affiliation (founding of the SAC, and the start of the cold war)
Richard Rhodes - The Making of the Atomic Bomb / Dark Sun Note that the third book in this trilogy is just a complete disaster, but the first two are Pulitzer prize winning entries.
Stephen Ambrose - Band of Brothers (Ambrose is a triumphalist, but the best military historian of his generation).
Richard Evans - Nazi Trilogy (Not American history, but you will understand the cold war much better if you understand Germany and Russia at the end of WWII)
Max Hastings - Armageddon/Retribution - history of the Pacific War
Timothy Egan - The Worst Hard Time (The Great Depression in Detail)
Liaquat Ahamed - Lords of Finance (or why Ron Paul is a moron, and how the gold standard led to the great depression)
John Berry - The Great Influenza (the rise of scientific medicine in America)
John Keegen - The First World War (the authoritative work on the subject)
David McCullah - The Path between the Seas (The Panama Canal)
Edmund Morris - Theodore Rex (God do we ever need a Theodoore Roosevelt right now)
Stephen Ambrose - Nothing like it in the world - The story of the transcontinental railroad
Eric Forner - Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution (a book on the south post war, the rise of the "new" democratic party, and it's paramilitary wing - the KKK).
Doris Goodwin - Team of Rivals (fantastic book about Lincoln).
James McPherson - The Battle Cry of Freedom (Civil War).
De Tocqueville - Democracy in America (must read)
Jay Wink - The great Upheaval America and the modern world 1788-1800 (A mostly forgotten period in American history, but insanely important to the cultural identify of being American).
Robert Kagen - Dangerous nation - a history of early american foreign policy (sounds much drier then it actually is. Fantastic book that takes a shovel to the myth of isolationism)
David McCullough - John Adams (Well duh)
Gordon Wood - The radicalism of the American Revolution (The definitive work on the thought process and founding of the country).
Walter McDougall - Freedom just around the Corner (fantastic book that encompasses all of the colonial and revolutionary period - culutral history).

For primary sources, You can't go wrong with Benjamin Franklin (slime that he is), Grant, Churchill (who strangely has a lot to say about America, and it's changes during his lifetime), De Tocqueville (who straddles the line in terms of primary or secondary source). The Federalist papers (which every school kid should read), Jefferson's papers (just to understand how much of a hypocrite the man was)

Cito Pelon
06-18-2011, 03:45 PM
Killer Angels is historical fanfiction and about the same quality as your average furry writer's works. Zinn's books are political arguments that are very divorced from the secondary sources he cites. In general, outside of high school history classes tough by partisan teachers, it really is not considered credible by any in the Historical community (There's a very famous Harvard Historical review on the subject). They are worth reading, but only if you take a shot every time he bashes anyone white, male or anglo-saxon. Read it with some of the worst of the Triumphalist writers on the other side, and you might come up with a bit of truth at the end.

I had to go up and clear my bookshelf looking for my favorites. In reverse chronological order, my favorite books (secondary sources only):
Thomas E Ricks - The Gamble / Bing West - the Strongest Tribe. Two books by Bush skeptics on the surge in Iraq. If you want to have a opinion on the war, you need to read these books.
Lawrence Wright - The Looming Tower (Alqaeda, Taleban and 9/11 - no one has produced anything more authoritative, and probably won't until the 50 year window on NSA is up).
Kurt Echeinwald - Conspiracy of Fools (All about Enron)
Thomas Friendman - The Lexis and the Olive Tree (about globalization, some historical, some current affairs)
David Halbertsam - The Coldest Winter (All about the Korean War)
Douglas Keeny - 15 Minutes: Curtis Lemay the countdown to nuclear affiliation (founding of the SAC, and the start of the cold war)
Richard Rhodes - The Making of the Atomic Bomb / Dark Sun Note that the third book in this trilogy is just a complete disaster, but the first two are Pulitzer prize winning entries.
Stephen Ambrose - Band of Brothers (Ambrose is a triumphalist, but the best military historian of his generation).
Richard Evans - Nazi Trilogy (Not American history, but you will understand the cold war much better if you understand Germany and Russia at the end of WWII)
Max Hastings - Armageddon/Retribution - history of the Pacific War
Timothy Egan - The Worst Hard Time (The Great Depression in Detail)
Liaquat Ahamed - Lords of Finance (or why Ron Paul is a moron, and how the gold standard led to the great depression)
John Berry - The Great Influenza (the rise of scientific medicine in America)
John Keegen - The First World War (the authoritative work on the subject)
David McCullah - The Path between the Seas (The Panama Canal)
Edmund Morris - Theodore Rex (God do we ever need a Theodoore Roosevelt right now)
Stephen Ambrose - Nothing like it in the world - The story of the transcontinental railroad
Eric Forner - Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution (a book on the south post war, the rise of the "new" democratic party, and it's paramilitary wing - the KKK).
Doris Goodwin - Team of Rivals (fantastic book about Lincoln).
James McPherson - The Battle Cry of Freedom (Civil War).
De Tocqueville - Democracy in America (must read)
Jay Wink - The great Upheaval America and the modern world 1788-1800 (A mostly forgotten period in American history, but insanely important to the cultural identify of being American).
Robert Kagen - Dangerous nation - a history of early american foreign policy (sounds much drier then it actually is. Fantastic book that takes a shovel to the myth of isolationism)
David McCullough - John Adams (Well duh)
Gordon Wood - The radicalism of the American Revolution (The definitive work on the thought process and founding of the country).
Walter McDougall - Freedom just around the Corner (fantastic book that encompasses all of the colonial and revolutionary period - culutral history).

For primary sources, You can't go wrong with Benjamin Franklin (slime that he is), Grant, Churchill (who strangely has a lot to say about America, and it's changes during his lifetime), De Tocqueville (who straddles the line in terms of primary or secondary source). The Federalist papers (which every school kid should read), Jefferson's papers (just to understand how much of a hypocrite the man was)

I'm gonna have to check some of those out. Thanks. That's an extensive reading list.

Archer81
06-18-2011, 04:34 PM
]


Have to tell you I hated Guns, Germs and Steel. Very dry and his conclusions are ridiculous. I had to write a paper on this book for my geography class. Mind numbing to read the book and then watch the movie...I'll never get that 2 days back.


:Broncos:

Archer81
06-18-2011, 04:36 PM
Killer Angels is historical fanfiction and about the same quality as your average furry writer's works. Zinn's books are political arguments that are very divorced from the secondary sources he cites. In general, outside of high school history classes tough by partisan teachers, it really is not considered credible by any in the Historical community (There's a very famous Harvard Historical review on the subject). They are worth reading, but only if you take a shot every time he bashes anyone white, male or anglo-saxon. Read it with some of the worst of the Triumphalist writers on the other side, and you might come up with a bit of truth at the end.

I had to go up and clear my bookshelf looking for my favorites. In reverse chronological order, my favorite books (secondary sources only):
Thomas E Ricks - The Gamble / Bing West - the Strongest Tribe. Two books by Bush skeptics on the surge in Iraq. If you want to have a opinion on the war, you need to read these books.
Lawrence Wright - The Looming Tower (Alqaeda, Taleban and 9/11 - no one has produced anything more authoritative, and probably won't until the 50 year window on NSA is up).
Kurt Echeinwald - Conspiracy of Fools (All about Enron)
Thomas Friendman - The Lexis and the Olive Tree (about globalization, some historical, some current affairs)
David Halbertsam - The Coldest Winter (All about the Korean War)
Douglas Keeny - 15 Minutes: Curtis Lemay the countdown to nuclear affiliation (founding of the SAC, and the start of the cold war)
Richard Rhodes - The Making of the Atomic Bomb / Dark Sun Note that the third book in this trilogy is just a complete disaster, but the first two are Pulitzer prize winning entries.
Stephen Ambrose - Band of Brothers (Ambrose is a triumphalist, but the best military historian of his generation).
Richard Evans - Nazi Trilogy (Not American history, but you will understand the cold war much better if you understand Germany and Russia at the end of WWII)
Max Hastings - Armageddon/Retribution - history of the Pacific War
Timothy Egan - The Worst Hard Time (The Great Depression in Detail)
Liaquat Ahamed - Lords of Finance (or why Ron Paul is a moron, and how the gold standard led to the great depression)
John Berry - The Great Influenza (the rise of scientific medicine in America)
John Keegen - The First World War (the authoritative work on the subject)
David McCullah - The Path between the Seas (The Panama Canal)
Edmund Morris - Theodore Rex (God do we ever need a Theodoore Roosevelt right now)
Stephen Ambrose - Nothing like it in the world - The story of the transcontinental railroad
Eric Forner - Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution (a book on the south post war, the rise of the "new" democratic party, and it's paramilitary wing - the KKK).
Doris Goodwin - Team of Rivals (fantastic book about Lincoln).
James McPherson - The Battle Cry of Freedom (Civil War).
De Tocqueville - Democracy in America (must read)
Jay Wink - The great Upheaval America and the modern world 1788-1800 (A mostly forgotten period in American history, but insanely important to the cultural identify of being American).
Robert Kagen - Dangerous nation - a history of early american foreign policy (sounds much drier then it actually is. Fantastic book that takes a shovel to the myth of isolationism)
David McCullough - John Adams (Well duh)
Gordon Wood - The radicalism of the American Revolution (The definitive work on the thought process and founding of the country).
Walter McDougall - Freedom just around the Corner (fantastic book that encompasses all of the colonial and revolutionary period - culutral history).

For primary sources, You can't go wrong with Benjamin Franklin (slime that he is), Grant, Churchill (who strangely has a lot to say about America, and it's changes during his lifetime), De Tocqueville (who straddles the line in terms of primary or secondary source). The Federalist papers (which every school kid should read), Jefferson's papers (just to understand how much of a hypocrite the man was)


Not so strange about Churchill. He was half-American. Great list, btw.


:Broncos:

Vegas_Bronco
06-18-2011, 05:25 PM
Socionomics
By prechter
It'll knock your historic timeline into the next 1000 years and explain history on a fractal level. More of a method of calculating the human herd as time moves forward simply by looking back.

BroncoInferno
06-18-2011, 07:14 PM
Have to tell you I hated Guns, Germs and Steel. Very dry and his conclusions are ridiculous. I had to write a paper on this book for my geography class. Mind numbing to read the book and then watch the movie...I'll never get that 2 days back.


:Broncos:

What was ridiculous about his conclusions? I thought he argued his thesis very well, and offered substantial evidence to support it. The first 100 or so pages that dealt with plants was a bit dry, but after that I thought it was quite fascinating.

brncs_fan
06-18-2011, 07:48 PM
Read this a couple of years ago and loved it. It is a little bit longer read (about 700 pages) but it is fantastic!
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/00/10/00/14/03/70/100014037053.gif

broncosteven
06-18-2011, 07:55 PM
Killer Angels is historical fanfiction and about the same quality as your average furry writer's works. Zinn's books are political arguments that are very divorced from the secondary sources he cites. In general, outside of high school history classes tough by partisan teachers, it really is not considered credible by any in the Historical community (There's a very famous Harvard Historical review on the subject). They are worth reading, but only if you take a shot every time he bashes anyone white, male or anglo-saxon. Read it with some of the worst of the Triumphalist writers on the other side, and you might come up with a bit of truth at the end.

I had to go up and clear my bookshelf looking for my favorites. In reverse chronological order, my favorite books (secondary sources only):
Thomas E Ricks - The Gamble / Bing West - the Strongest Tribe. Two books by Bush skeptics on the surge in Iraq. If you want to have a opinion on the war, you need to read these books.
Lawrence Wright - The Looming Tower (Alqaeda, Taleban and 9/11 - no one has produced anything more authoritative, and probably won't until the 50 year window on NSA is up).
Kurt Echeinwald - Conspiracy of Fools (All about Enron)
Thomas Friendman - The Lexis and the Olive Tree (about globalization, some historical, some current affairs)
David Halbertsam - The Coldest Winter (All about the Korean War)
Douglas Keeny - 15 Minutes: Curtis Lemay the countdown to nuclear affiliation (founding of the SAC, and the start of the cold war)
Richard Rhodes - The Making of the Atomic Bomb / Dark Sun Note that the third book in this trilogy is just a complete disaster, but the first two are Pulitzer prize winning entries.
Stephen Ambrose - Band of Brothers (Ambrose is a triumphalist, but the best military historian of his generation).
Richard Evans - Nazi Trilogy (Not American history, but you will understand the cold war much better if you understand Germany and Russia at the end of WWII)
Max Hastings - Armageddon/Retribution - history of the Pacific War
Timothy Egan - The Worst Hard Time (The Great Depression in Detail)
Liaquat Ahamed - Lords of Finance (or why Ron Paul is a moron, and how the gold standard led to the great depression)
John Berry - The Great Influenza (the rise of scientific medicine in America)
John Keegen - The First World War (the authoritative work on the subject)
David McCullah - The Path between the Seas (The Panama Canal)
Edmund Morris - Theodore Rex (God do we ever need a Theodoore Roosevelt right now)
Stephen Ambrose - Nothing like it in the world - The story of the transcontinental railroad
Eric Forner - Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution (a book on the south post war, the rise of the "new" democratic party, and it's paramilitary wing - the KKK).
Doris Goodwin - Team of Rivals (fantastic book about Lincoln).
James McPherson - The Battle Cry of Freedom (Civil War).
De Tocqueville - Democracy in America (must read)
Jay Wink - The great Upheaval America and the modern world 1788-1800 (A mostly forgotten period in American history, but insanely important to the cultural identify of being American).
Robert Kagen - Dangerous nation - a history of early american foreign policy (sounds much drier then it actually is. Fantastic book that takes a shovel to the myth of isolationism)
David McCullough - John Adams (Well duh)
Gordon Wood - The radicalism of the American Revolution (The definitive work on the thought process and founding of the country).
Walter McDougall - Freedom just around the Corner (fantastic book that encompasses all of the colonial and revolutionary period - culutral history).

For primary sources, You can't go wrong with Benjamin Franklin (slime that he is), Grant, Churchill (who strangely has a lot to say about America, and it's changes during his lifetime), De Tocqueville (who straddles the line in terms of primary or secondary source). The Federalist papers (which every school kid should read), Jefferson's papers (just to understand how much of a hypocrite the man was)

Wow, those sound as exciting to read as the Cisco CCNP and CCIE Cert books.

Glad to see that us Computer/Network guys are not the only geeks out there.

The above said I will also check out a few of those titles! Thanks for the list!

Archer81
06-18-2011, 08:08 PM
What was ridiculous about his conclusions? I thought he argued his thesis very well, and offered substantial evidence to support it. The first 100 or so pages that dealt with plants was a bit dry, but after that I thought it was quite fascinating.


A few reasons, the first is the exceptions to his theory and the fact he is not a historian. You cannot apply a one size fits all theory to explain European colonialism of the entire world. A very mechanical, dry explanation to human experiences.

The glaring exception is the Chinese. Every advantage the Europeans had, but they stayed put. According to Diamond any nation with Europe's perceived advantages would explore the world and do the same things the Europeans did. He completely discounts national character, demographics, religion, and wealth. If aliens landed on earth and the first book they read was Diamond's they would have a completely skewed view of world history and would conclude that human beings are only as capable as the food sources nearby and pack animals they have around them.

:Broncos:

broncosteven
06-18-2011, 08:11 PM
A few reasons, the first is the exceptions to his theory and the fact he is not a historian. You cannot apply a one size fits all theory to explain European colonialism of the entire world. A very mechanical, dry explanation to human experiences.

The glaring exception is the Chinese. Every advantage the Europeans had, but they stayed put. According to Diamond any nation with Europe's perceived advantages would explore the world and do the same things the Europeans did. He completely discounts national character, demographics, religion, and wealth. If aliens landed on earth and the first book they read was Diamond's they would have a completely skewed view of world history and would conclude that human beings are only as capable as the food sources nearby and pack animals they have around them.

:Broncos:

If you ask McGoober that is what has happened and why Aliens are so intent on probing out pack animals.

houghtam
06-18-2011, 08:16 PM
A few reasons, the first is the exceptions to his theory and the fact he is not a historian. You cannot apply a one size fits all theory to explain European colonialism of the entire world. A very mechanical, dry explanation to human experiences.

The glaring exception is the Chinese. Every advantage the Europeans had, but they stayed put. According to Diamond any nation with Europe's perceived advantages would explore the world and do the same things the Europeans did. He completely discounts national character, demographics, religion, and wealth. If aliens landed on earth and the first book they read was Diamond's they would have a completely skewed view of world history and would conclude that human beings are only as capable as the food sources nearby and pack animals they have around them.

:Broncos:

Yeah, but it's just that, a thesis. Even Diamond himself has said there are holes in his postulating, considering he's a bird scientist, just like there are with anything of that nature. We had to read this in a graduate immigration theory class I had and discussed the very thing about the chinese...it's been years since that class and reading that book, but I thought Diamond discussed some of the possibilities why the Chinese stayed put and Euros did not. If it wasn't in the book, we definitely discussed it in the seminar. That was one of the main things that we all took away from the unit on Diamond: it is an interesting view that doesn't really take all things into account, but definitely is thought/discussion provoking. I found the book fascinating!

Pontius Pirate
06-18-2011, 09:05 PM
Zinn's books are political arguments that are very divorced from the secondary sources he cites. In general, outside of high school history classes tough by partisan teachers, it really is not considered credible by any in the Historical community (There's a very famous Harvard Historical review on the subject). They are worth reading, but only if you take a shot every time he bashes anyone white, male or anglo-saxon. Read it with some of the worst of the Triumphalist writers on the other side, and you might come up with a bit of truth at the end.



In fairness, Zinn is admittedly biased and triumphalist. The mainstream "historical community" is also center in his cross-hairs for the "white, male, anglo-saxon" account of history that they have espoused. So I guess it makes sense that the people he bashes do not like him.

Or, "haters gon hate"

lostknight
06-18-2011, 10:23 PM
In fairness, Zinn is admittedly biased and triumphalist.


Sorry, Triumphalist is a different school then Zinn. Zinn's actually a political hack who tries to make his points by taking nothing but secondary sources, and putting them way out of context to their own authors stated beliefs.

Triumphilism is best reflected in writers like Ambrose (with Band of Brothers, The Victors, Citizen Soilders or D-Day) that tend to focus on democracy as a enabling factor for everything good in the world. As expected from proper historians, they tend to focus on primary resources rather then secondary, in particular in-person interviews for Ambrose, and the Adams and Washington libraries for McCullagh.

Zinn's just about the opposite of that particular school. just a FYI, but if you are going to demonize your opponents rather then deal with their points, it might be helpful to know what they are actually saying.


The mainstream "historical community" is also center in his cross-hairs for the "white, male, anglo-saxon" account of history that they have espoused.


Or, "haters gon hate"What is this? High School. I've never stated that I hate Zinn. Only that he has a political bias that sane rational Third Parties - including Harvard's dean - have characterized as fast and loose with facts in order to prove out a political science element. This is a again reflected in the fact that he did not a whit of independent research to validate his thesis, and made tortured connections that are directly at odds with the people he is quoting.

If I had dared to do the same thing in college I would have flunked out. (and yes, there were more then a few stodgy white men classes, but also classes thought by Asian women, the capstone classes that deliberately viewed things through as many different lenses as possible. For example my capstone was tough by a Japanese professor, a German professor, and a American History professor about World War II). For this class, we dealt with primary sources. We read Churchill and Tojo. I read every single freaken Purple intercept that had to do with German-Ruso and German-Sino relations.

Zinn's a interesting voice, and his thesis are interesting. But more often then not his thesis fails basic sniff tests. For example, his conspiracy theory that the Founding Fathers started the revolution to distract people from economic problems and popular movements disregards the fact that the middle class (not just of artisans, but a true middle class) really emerged in America the first time. The founding fathers were well educated, but they had no royal rights or privileges. They certainly were not the top strata of life in the empire. Where they better off then the average farmer? Yes, on average. Where they top 1% like Gage and Cornwallis and the royals? Hell no.

As for the poverty claim, The average American was nearly two inches taller then their European breatheren simply because of how much better fed, and how much less poverty their was.

He tries to make the claim that the founding fathers were trying to kill poular movements, he ignores the fact that the Revolution itself was a popular movement. He liked to classify the founding fathers are being somehow elite, but the reality was that the founding fathers had been excluded repeatedly from any type of political control. If King George had not humiliated Benjiman Franklin at court, not marginalized the most representative bodies in the world at the time in the states, had extended even basic taxes with representation rather then expecting the true elites - the royalists in the country - to enforce it by fiat, there would be one British Empire even today, and it's capital would be in Philadelphia.

His statements about the Civil War are even more ludicrous. His basic position is that Slavery was a pure effect of the capitalistic structure ignores that it was the more capitalistic state - the North - that was anti-slavery. The South was far far behind in every conceivable economic barrometer, and was not really capitalistic at all. There was virtually no turnover in the concentration of wealth, or the families in power between the end of the revolutionary war in Virginia to the start of the Civil War. Again, the state with the most concentrated wealth and least capitalistic was actually the state fighting to enslave men.

His argument that World War II was just as engineered, in order to enforce Jim Crow laws once again ignores that the war actually served as a mechanism that extended civil rights. Once again, he uses his usual boogymen to claim some sort of conspiracy to enslave the good and honest people, pointing to socialism or communism for a fix.

However, it was the Eight that was the champion of Civil Rights. Eisenhower because the great champion of integration, and Republicans finally came into power after two decades of minority and immediately pushed for minority rights. Zinn won't admit that given that his favorite poster-children were on the wrong side of that particular argument.

Some of his points have value. They really do. But as a overall general work, it's much more a political manifesto then any serious study of history.

houghtam
06-18-2011, 11:55 PM
His statements about the Civil War are even more ludicrous. His basic position is that Slavery was a pure effect of the capitalistic structure ignores that it was the more capitalistic state - the North - that was anti-slavery. The South was far far behind in every conceivable economic barrometer, and was not really capitalistic at all. There was virtually no turnover in the concentration of wealth, or the families in power between the end of the revolutionary war in Virginia to the start of the Civil War. Again, the state with the most concentrated wealth and least capitalistic was actually the state fighting to enslave men.

I'm sure this doesn't add much to this particular argument, but in one of the papers I wrote I theorized that an often overlooked factor that played into the whole North vs. South dynamic was that much of the North was settled by people searching for freedom, whether it be religious or otherwise, and much of the South was settled by imperialistic overlords in the Spanish and British.

My British professor did not approve :)

lostknight
06-19-2011, 06:38 AM
I'm sure this doesn't add much to this particular argument, but in one of the papers I wrote I theorized that an often overlooked factor that played into the whole North vs. South dynamic was that much of the North was settled by people searching for freedom, whether it be religious or otherwise, and much of the South was settled by imperialistic overlords in the Spanish and British.


There is absolutely something too this. Especially in South Carolina (which was the soul of confederacy, no matter how much Virginia may preen) the legacy from America's colonial past was very strong. The Anglican Church was extraordinarily strong there. The families that dominated social life of the South were the same that dominated during the American Revolution.

The north was, as you note, founded by a polyglot of different peoples, religions, and creeds. This is why you early on see efforts at multi-cultural and multi-faith structures and tolerance. In the South there were several movements to outlaw all religion except Anglicanism.

I get flak for this, but at the end of the day, the leaders of the South during the American Civil War were simply evil. As evil as the Nazis. They knew what they were doing was corrupted, that it would leave scars on the country for generations - and they did so anyways. I will have a hard time ever thinking positively about Jefferson because of the sheer wretched human being he was. The South became very good at moralizing their "Peculiar Institution" via congress and it created a structure whereby a very small number of plantation formers dominated the political life of the nation.

It was (diametrically opposite of what certain authors state) the phenomenal growth of the North as they moved away from a centralized upper class economy to a strong diversified economy in the North that made the South's position more and more untenable.

Rausch 2.0
06-19-2011, 09:41 AM
Still love reading "The Greatest Generation" and even though it's not American I think most young readers should take in "All Quiet On The Western Front..."

mhgaffney
06-19-2011, 11:45 AM
Gold Warriors

by Sterling and Peggy Seagrave

I'm reading this, now -- and it's riveting. The authors have uncovered one of the most important untold stories of the last 70 years.

Ever wonder why there was no Marshall Plan for Japan after WW II?
The reason is because even tho the Japanese lost the war they were far richer at war's end than before.

The authors explain how the Japanese squirreled away $100 billion in plundered gold, silver, diamonds and precious gems during WW II, plunder

that was never returned to its rightful owners and which the US government has attempted with great success to keep secret ever since.

The authors explain how much of the treasure was secretly recovered by Ferdinand Marcos and the CIA...

The book explains the mysterious dumps of gold on the world market -- from unexplained sources -- and much more...

Truman's decision to keep the Japanese and Nazi gold off the books had grave consequences....

MHG

Here's one of 15 five-star review:

Earth-Shattering, Faith-Shaking, Well-Documented Deceit,

This book is earth-shattering and faith-shaking, a well-documented tale of deceit at the highest levels of the US government. So controversial and potentially explosive are the findings of this book, to wit, that the White House recovered most of the Nazi and Japanese loot and created a secret slush fund for covert political operations world-wide, that the authors go the extra mile and offer, at a nominal price, two CD-ROMS containing 60,000 pages of supporting documentation including the Japanese treasure maps used by the US to recover the gold and other valuables.
Major players include Presidents Truman, Eisenhower, and Nixon, both Allen and John Foster Dulles, Douglas MacArthur, John McCloy, and the famous unconventional warrior Edward Lansdale. What we learn from this book is that those writing about "blowback" (the consequences of unwise US actions) have barely scratched the surface. What we learn is that rather than truly seeking to help the Japanese, Chinese, and other looted nations recover in the aftermath of WWII, the most senior leaders of the US government, no doubt with the best of intentions, actually conspired with Nazi bankers and the Japanese imperial family to create a Black Eagle Trust controlled by a very select hand-picked cabal in Washington.

Originally used to fight communism, the Black Eagle Trust, according to the authors and as thoroughly documented by the book and the two CD-ROMS (which I am happy to have in hand), quickly became a global slush fund used to bribe national leaders and manipulate elections around the world. This fund remains in existence today, making the Swiss Holocaust funds seem like loose-change. According to the authors, major banks are "addicted" to the funds and would face collapse if public investigations resulted in a forced return of this gold and related certificates to the rightful owners.

The authors have produced a magnificent work of both scholarship and investigative journalism. They document the extent of Japanese looting of Korea (beginning in 1895) and China as well as the other countries in the "co-prosperity sphere." They document the manner in which Japan hid most of the gold in the Philippines (some in Indonesia), and were forced to leave it there from 1943 onwards, when US submarine interdiction became too effective to risk shipments homeward.

I found the level of detail in this book to be quite gripping. The ingenious nature of the Japanese burial sites, with caverns below the more obvious tunnels, with sea-water protection, with maps created in reverse--and the in-bred cruelty of the Japanese, thinking nothing of burying all of the US and other national slave labor *and the Japanese engineers* alive as the final stage of protecting the looted treasure, leave one stunned.

The authors document the central role played by Lansdale in recognizing the opportunity and then briefing MacArthur and then President Truman. According to the authors, the architects of the Black Eagle Trust were three advisors to President's Roosevelt's Secretary of War, Henry Stimson: John McCloy (later head of the World Bank), Robert Lovett (later Secretary of Defense), and Robert Anderson (later Secretary of the Treasury). They made the case to Roosevelt, and presumably to Truman after Roosevelt died, that it would be impractical to return the looted gold to the rightful owners, in part because many of the looted countries were now under Soviet control.

The authors, who conducted many interviews in support of the work, including interviews of former CIA deputy director Ray Cline, who they say was involved with Lansdale and the gold in the 1940's and remained involved with the black gold through the 1980's, provide copies of documents showing the redirection of the looted gold to 176 bank accounts in 42 countries. The gold was then used to support the creation of gold bearer certificates that were in turned used to bribe the most senior officials around the world.

The authors tell a shocking tale of how quickly MacArthur chose to collaborate with the very leadership of Japan that declared war on the USA and was responsible for genocide and looting in Asia on a scale rarely achieved by anyone else. Bringing the story up to date, the authors show how prior attempts to investigate the Black Eagle Trust have led to the ruin of individuals such as Norbert Schlei, at one time deputy attorney general to Presidents Kennedy and Johnson. While I have no direct knowledge and cannot be certain myself, I believe the authors have provided a sufficiently compelling case to warrant an international investigation concurrently with a General Accounting Office investigation to be chartered by Congress with unlimited supeona powers specifically directed against classified personalities and archives.

If this story is true, and I personally think that it is, then the US government, in active collusion with the very people the American people fought to defeat in WWII, has been guilty of fraud and depravity on a global scale and against the best interests of both the American people, and the against the rightful owners of the looted gold and other treasures. The authors may well have uncovered the last really big secret of the post-WW II era, and in so doing, opened the way for a restoration of the balance of power among diverse nations, and a sharp delimitation of the abuses that appear to characterize American leadership when it thinks it can rely on secret gold and stolen oil to engage in imperial adventures and domestic improprieties. As an American citizen and voter, and as a person of faith who believes that we must do unto others as we would have them do unto us, I find this book to be shocking, credible, and a basis for popular outrage and demands for truth and reconciliation.

Chris
06-19-2011, 07:08 PM
I was thinking about this thread earlier today and what it said about the mane as a whole. Despite the ability of many of us to act like children sometimes this board distinguishes itself by being filled with generous, smart people who strangely also happen to love a team that runs in my blood.

lostknight I did a continuing ed course and the professor recommended the John Keegan book. I'll have to check it out.

Is there a comprehensive book on all US history that is apolitical?

houghtam
06-19-2011, 07:20 PM
There is absolutely something too this. Especially in South Carolina (which was the soul of confederacy, no matter how much Virginia may preen) the legacy from America's colonial past was very strong. The Anglican Church was extraordinarily strong there. The families that dominated social life of the South were the same that dominated during the American Revolution.

The north was, as you note, founded by a polyglot of different peoples, religions, and creeds. This is why you early on see efforts at multi-cultural and multi-faith structures and tolerance. In the South there were several movements to outlaw all religion except Anglicanism.

I get flak for this, but at the end of the day, the leaders of the South during the American Civil War were simply evil. As evil as the Nazis. They knew what they were doing was corrupted, that it would leave scars on the country for generations - and they did so anyways. I will have a hard time ever thinking positively about Jefferson because of the sheer wretched human being he was. The South became very good at moralizing their "Peculiar Institution" via congress and it created a structure whereby a very small number of plantation formers dominated the political life of the nation.

It was (diametrically opposite of what certain authors state) the phenomenal growth of the North as they moved away from a centralized upper class economy to a strong diversified economy in the North that made the South's position more and more untenable.

Very true, and like many more or less tyrannic and evil people, many of them used the Bible and religion not only to rally others to their cause, but to justify their reasoning for their actions.

Archer81
06-19-2011, 07:26 PM
I was thinking about this thread earlier today and what it said about the mane as a whole. Despite the ability of many of us to act like children sometimes this board distinguishes itself by being filled with generous, smart people who strangely also happen to love a team that runs in my blood.

lostknight I did a continuing ed course and the professor recommended the John Keegan book. I'll have to check it out.

Is there a comprehensive book on all US history that is apolitical?


Probably not. People write history, and their retelling often shows their biases. The best thing is usually to read two or three books on the subject and whatever is the same is the fact.

The best example I can give you is Zinn's history book and the patriotic history I posted a few pages back. It covers the same time period, whatever is the same in the two books is worth knowing.

:Broncos:

lostknight
06-19-2011, 07:42 PM
Very true, and like many more or less tyrannic and evil people, many of them used the Bible and religion not only to rally others to their cause, but to justify their reasoning for their actions.

The Bible was also the foundation of the Abolitionist movement as well, both in the United States and in Europe.

As we see now in the Middle East and in the Stans, religion is a easy excuse to justify war in self-interest.

lostknight
06-19-2011, 07:49 PM
Is there a comprehensive book on all US history that is apolitical?

I don't believe in the concept of a bias free person. It simply doesn't exist, and is most often a line used as a attempt to gain more authority by being "non-partisan". That's especially true of the media today. Historians explicitly call this out by stating their thesis up front. That thesis should inform you of exactly what tact they are going to take in their arguments.

For example, there are two basic schools of though about the American revolution. One faction holds that it is a inherently radical act. This school of thought is led by Gordon Wood, and his book "The radicalism of the American revolution." It's pretty much easy to see his thesis. That also has political implications because it feeds into the concept of American Exceptionalism, a concept that is anathema to the left, and gospel truth on the right.

This is why I encourage actual deep study of history, rather then picking a book. It's like trying to learn all about Hitler by just reading Mein Kampf.

lostknight
06-19-2011, 07:50 PM
The best example I can give you is Zinn's history book and the patriotic history I posted a few pages back. It covers the same time period, whatever is the same in the two books is worth knowing.
:Broncos:


I actually have recommended that pairing of books before. It's not a bad idea to mix the triumphalist school with the America is Evil writers.

Pontius Pirate
06-19-2011, 07:51 PM
Sorry, Triumphalist is a different school then Zinn. Zinn's actually a political hack who tries to make his points by taking nothing but secondary sources, and putting them way out of context to their own authors stated beliefs.

Triumphilism is best reflected in writers like Ambrose (with Band of Brothers, The Victors, Citizen Soilders or D-Day) that tend to focus on democracy as a enabling factor for everything good in the world. As expected from proper historians, they tend to focus on primary resources rather then secondary, in particular in-person interviews for Ambrose, and the Adams and Washington libraries for McCullagh.

Zinn's just about the opposite of that particular school. just a FYI, but if you are going to demonize your opponents rather then deal with their points, it might be helpful to know what they are actually saying.



What is this? High School. I've never stated that I hate Zinn. Only that he has a political bias that sane rational Third Parties - including Harvard's dean - have characterized as fast and loose with facts in order to prove out a political science element. This is a again reflected in the fact that he did not a whit of independent research to validate his thesis, and made tortured connections that are directly at odds with the people he is quoting.

If I had dared to do the same thing in college I would have flunked out. (and yes, there were more then a few stodgy white men classes, but also classes thought by Asian women, the capstone classes that deliberately viewed things through as many different lenses as possible. For example my capstone was tough by a Japanese professor, a German professor, and a American History professor about World War II). For this class, we dealt with primary sources. We read Churchill and Tojo. I read every single freaken Purple intercept that had to do with German-Ruso and German-Sino relations.

Zinn's a interesting voice, and his thesis are interesting. But more often then not his thesis fails basic sniff tests. For example, his conspiracy theory that the Founding Fathers started the revolution to distract people from economic problems and popular movements disregards the fact that the middle class (not just of artisans, but a true middle class) really emerged in America the first time. The founding fathers were well educated, but they had no royal rights or privileges. They certainly were not the top strata of life in the empire. Where they better off then the average farmer? Yes, on average. Where they top 1% like Gage and Cornwallis and the royals? Hell no.

As for the poverty claim, The average American was nearly two inches taller then their European breatheren simply because of how much better fed, and how much less poverty their was.

He tries to make the claim that the founding fathers were trying to kill poular movements, he ignores the fact that the Revolution itself was a popular movement. He liked to classify the founding fathers are being somehow elite, but the reality was that the founding fathers had been excluded repeatedly from any type of political control. If King George had not humiliated Benjiman Franklin at court, not marginalized the most representative bodies in the world at the time in the states, had extended even basic taxes with representation rather then expecting the true elites - the royalists in the country - to enforce it by fiat, there would be one British Empire even today, and it's capital would be in Philadelphia.

His statements about the Civil War are even more ludicrous. His basic position is that Slavery was a pure effect of the capitalistic structure ignores that it was the more capitalistic state - the North - that was anti-slavery. The South was far far behind in every conceivable economic barrometer, and was not really capitalistic at all. There was virtually no turnover in the concentration of wealth, or the families in power between the end of the revolutionary war in Virginia to the start of the Civil War. Again, the state with the most concentrated wealth and least capitalistic was actually the state fighting to enslave men.

His argument that World War II was just as engineered, in order to enforce Jim Crow laws once again ignores that the war actually served as a mechanism that extended civil rights. Once again, he uses his usual boogymen to claim some sort of conspiracy to enslave the good and honest people, pointing to socialism or communism for a fix.

However, it was the Eight that was the champion of Civil Rights. Eisenhower because the great champion of integration, and Republicans finally came into power after two decades of minority and immediately pushed for minority rights. Zinn won't admit that given that his favorite poster-children were on the wrong side of that particular argument.

Some of his points have value. They really do. But as a overall general work, it's much more a political manifesto then any serious study of history.

Zzzzzz

Archer81
06-19-2011, 08:11 PM
I actually have recommended that pairing of books before. It's not a bad idea to mix the triumphalist school with the America is Evil writers.


Never hurts to get as many angles on history as possible. You can argue the politics of history all you like, but it wont change what actually happened. That's why history is my favorite subject.


:Broncos:

STBumpkin
06-19-2011, 09:06 PM
So dudes I just recently completed "Battle Cry of Freedom" on the Civil War era by Whosahuzza Mcpherson which I think may be the best history book I've ever read. I read "The Killer Angels" before that. I've just started "1776" by David Mcullough.

What US history books can you recommend?

I'm a bit of a US history newbie so I'm a bit of a blank slate.

I've heard "Roughing it" by Mark Twain and Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee are good.

This is an extremely broad topic. It's like asking what Colorado Micro-Brews can you recommend?

What are you interested in? Battle Pieces, Biographies, War Histories, Civil War, Revolutionary War, American West, American South, Modern History, Post-Modern History, WWI, WWII, Vietnam, etc... There are literally hundreds of genre for US History. A few of my favs: For Civil War command/biographical "Grant and Lee" by RFC Fuller is an outstanding book. John Keegan (as others have mentioned) is a fantastic historian overall, with "the Face of Battle," "The Mask of Command," and "The First World War" being some of the best ever written. I also have read many American war memoirs and first hand accounts. PM me if anything I've written interests you.

BroncoBuff
06-20-2011, 05:33 PM
Read this a couple of years ago and loved it. It is a little bit longer read (about 700 pages) but it is fantastic!
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/00/10/00/14/03/70/100014037053.gif

Maybe my expectations were too high on that one, I had seem Kearns-Goodwin on all the shows promoting the book, but Lincoln's strategy didn't seem all that courageous or revolutionary to me.

It was obviously smart and successful, but much of it seemed just common sense to me.

houghtam
01-29-2012, 08:15 PM
Maybe my expectations were too high on that one, I had seem Kearns-Goodwin on all the shows promoting the book, but Lincoln's strategy didn't seem all that courageous or revolutionary to me.

It was obviously smart and successful, but much of it seemed just common sense to me.

I'm going to resurrect this thread from last summer, for the sole purpose of asking the question: it seems like there are quite a few interested in Civil War history. Is anyone on here into Civil War strategy games (Talonsoft's Battleground series, Sid Meier, Great Battles of the American Civil War series, etc.)?

Archer81
01-29-2012, 08:39 PM
I'm going to resurrect this thread from last summer, for the sole purpose of asking the question: it seems like there are quite a few interested in Civil War history. Is anyone on here into Civil War strategy games (Talonsoft's Battleground series, Sid Meier, Great Battles of the American Civil War series, etc.)?


I love Civ 4 (not Civil war stuff, but still...I hate the Aztecs...), and way back in the day when I had a Nintendo I had a game that was either called Blue vs Grey or The Civil War. Pick a side, fight it out. Only thing I can really remember about it was raiding trains.

:Broncos:

houghtam
01-29-2012, 08:41 PM
I love Civ 4 (not Civil war stuff, but still...I hate the Aztecs...), and way back in the day when I had a Nintendo I had a game that was either called Blue vs Grey or The Civil War. Pick a side, fight it out. Only thing I can really remember about it was raiding trains.

:Broncos:

What a terrible, awful game. Still fun as hell though.

Archer81
01-29-2012, 08:42 PM
What a terrible, awful game. Still fun as hell though.


That would be it. My dad loved it. It was the only game we could play without being told to shut it off and go outside.

:Broncos:

houghtam
01-29-2012, 08:46 PM
I played Civ 3, and Sid Meier produces some GREAT games. Sid Meier's Gettysburg and Anteitam are RTS regimental-level games based on the above battles. Fun as hell to play, and the randomized scenario option makes it replayable ad infinitum.

I always thought it was fun in Civ 3 to roll over the continent in my Panzers (I'm always the Krauts), only to go across the sea and be leveled by someone leaps and bounds ahead of me. It was also hilarious to see a guy with an axe get a lucky hit on my Panzer that had one hit left. A lot of blood pressure pills can be wasted on that game.

Archer81
01-29-2012, 08:49 PM
I played Civ 3, and Sid Meier produces some GREAT games. Sid Meier's Gettysburg and Anteitam are RTS regimental-level games based on the above battles. Fun as hell to play, and the randomized scenario option makes it replayable ad infinitum.

I always thought it was fun in Civ 3 to roll over the continent in my Panzers (I'm always the Krauts), only to go across the sea and be leveled by someone leaps and bounds ahead of me. It was also hilarious to see a guy with an axe get a lucky hit on my Panzer that had one hit left. A lot of blood pressure pills can be wasted on that game.


Civ 4 can be that way. Simply because you have the more advanced unit does not always mean you win the battle. Watching infantry get mowed down by axemen...good effing God. And being stuck on a continent with the Aztec, Zulu and Mongols is the game thinking its going to try and be cute.

:Broncos:

houghtam
01-29-2012, 09:02 PM
Civ 4 can be that way. Simply because you have the more advanced unit does not always mean you win the battle. Watching infantry get mowed down by axemen...good effing God. And being stuck on a continent with the Aztec, Zulu and Mongols is the game thinking its going to try and be cute.

:Broncos:

I may have to try it out. Currently in between raids on World of Warcraft I play Empire: Total War and Total War: Shogun 2. It's amazing how far the graphics and strategery have come in RTS games since Intellivision's Utopia.

Archer81
01-29-2012, 09:05 PM
I may have to try it out. Currently in between raids on World of Warcraft I play Empire: Total War and Total War: Shogun 2. It's amazing how far the graphics and strategery have come in RTS games since Intellivision's Utopia.


My brother plays the hell out of Total War: Rome.

Civ 4 is a pretty good game. Get the key wonders of the world at the right time and you have a decent shot to not get embarassed.

:Broncos:

houghtam
01-29-2012, 09:16 PM
My brother plays the hell out of Total War: Rome.

Civ 4 is a pretty good game. Get the key wonders of the world at the right time and you have a decent shot to not get embarassed.

:Broncos:

Any experience playing multiplayer? How does that go?

Archer81
01-29-2012, 09:42 PM
Any experience playing multiplayer? How does that go?


I played Civ 4 online a few times and got flattened. Both times I was not in the best place to start off (jungle in one, alot of tundra around in the other). Then my laptop took a dive so now I can only do single player on it.


:Broncos:

broncosteven
01-29-2012, 09:51 PM
I played Civ 3, and Sid Meier produces some GREAT games. Sid Meier's Gettysburg and Anteitam are RTS regimental-level games based on the above battles. Fun as hell to play, and the randomized scenario option makes it replayable ad infinitum.

I always thought it was fun in Civ 3 to roll over the continent in my Panzers (I'm always the Krauts), only to go across the sea and be leveled by someone leaps and bounds ahead of me. It was also hilarious to see a guy with an axe get a lucky hit on my Panzer that had one hit left. A lot of blood pressure pills can be wasted on that game.

I found this game at the library and would go on binges playing it. I love getting the nuke and using it on someone, even if I am close to winning via Space flight or another way.

KaaaBoom!

Punisher
01-29-2012, 09:53 PM
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lKsiQ0NWL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

TD4HOF
01-29-2012, 09:56 PM
Nice bump. Man, there are some smart f***ers here.

Archer81
01-29-2012, 10:59 PM
I found this game at the library and would go on binges playing it. I love getting the nuke and using it on someone, even if I am close to winning via Space flight or another way.

KaaaBoom!


I would use my ICBM's on barbarian cities...generally as a warning to the rest of the world.

:Broncos:

Raidersbane
01-30-2012, 06:17 AM
Theodore Rex by Edmund Morris.


A fantastic bio on Teddy's two administrations.

BowlenBall
01-30-2012, 06:42 AM
Does this count?

http://c-product.images.dreamsretail.com/32-00/32-00349-Y.jpg

How 'bout this?

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTkwNjE3OTU5MV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMTM1Nzg0MQ@@._ V1._SY317_CR5,0,214,317_.jpg

80smith
01-30-2012, 07:18 AM
The Devil in the White City: Murder, Magic, and Madness at the Fair that Changed America.

30146

Their fates were linked by the magical Chicago World’s Fair of 1893, nicknamed the “White City” for its majestic beauty. Architect Daniel Burnham built it; serial killer Dr. H. H. Holmes used it to lure victims to his World’s Fair Hotel, designed for murder. Both men left behind them a powerful legacy, one of brilliance and energy, the other of sorrow and darkness.

http://www.randomhouse.com/crown/devilinthewhitecity/home.html

I'm in the process of finishing this and find it a nice read.

bendog
01-30-2012, 07:37 AM
The Killer Angels is a poor representation of actually history. It's a book that reads very well, but it's nothing more than historical fiction.

As a practicing Civil War re-enactor and long-time history scholar, I've got quite an extensive collection, and between my dad, my brothers and I, I would recommend the following on Civil War history:

Pickett's Charge: A microhistory of Lee's Final Attack
Hardtack & Coffee
The Life of Billy Yank/Johnny Reb
We Were the Ninth (Die Neuner)
Soldiering: The Civil War Diary of Rice C. Bull
A Yankee Private's Civil War
The Union Soldier in Battle: Enduring the Ordeal of Combat
Wolf of the Deep (for you Civil War naval enthusiasts...great account of the CSS Alabama)

Currently reading:

A German Hurrah!
and
The Rifle Musket in Civil War Combat: Myth and Reality

All are excellent reads...BCOF and the Foote series are good reads for an overall glossing over, but if you want true detail, my suggestion would be to pick a topic you're interested in and find something related to that. There's a wealth of information out there about the Civil War.

The fat lady ain't sung yet, though Paula Deen's got diabetes

http://www.amazon.com/Confederates-Attic-Dispatches-Unfinished-Civil/dp/067975833X

Seriously, I checked this out from the library in the last batch of books, but haven't got around to it yet.

http://www.amazon.com/Midnight-Rising-Brown-Sparked-Civil/dp/080509153X/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_1

I got it because I've read several op eds that as a nation we are approaching the unwillingness to compromise that foreshadowed the civil war. I think that's an overstatemtnt because Wall St will never allow it to happen again, but we are rather polarized.

Broncomutt
01-30-2012, 08:25 AM
So dudes I just recently completed "Battle Cry of Freedom" on the Civil War era by Whosahuzza Mcpherson which I think may be the best history book I've ever read. I read "The Killer Angels" before that. I've just started "1776" by David Mcullough.

What US history books can you recommend?

I'm a bit of a US history newbie so I'm a bit of a blank slate.

I've heard "Roughing it" by Mark Twain and Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee are good.

The Killer Angels is a great novel, read it 3 times, twice on my own and once to my father.

I recently finished The Caine Mutiny by Herman Wouk. Not as action packed at The Winds of War, but great detail of daily life on a Pacific destroyer mine sweeper.

Of course To Kill a Mockingbird by Harper Lee is a classic. Read that for the 1st time a few months ago and was delighted. Racism in the south through the eyes of an innocent young girl.

My best recommendation would be William Styron's The Confessions of Nat Turner. Insightful account of what it was like to grow up a slave in 1830s Virginia, culminating in his leadership of one of the deadliest slave rebellions on US soil. Gives a very interesting and thought provoking account of what the institution of slavery was like.

Interesting, all 4 are Pulitzer prize winners for fiction: The Caine Mutiny (1954), To Kill a Mockingbird (1961), The Confessions of Nat Turner (1968), The Killer Angels (1975).

bendog
01-30-2012, 08:40 AM
Styron Lies. Turner was well treated and had no reason to rebel!

Since the commencement of 1830, I had been living with Mr. Joseph Travis, who was to me a kind master, and placed the greatest confidence in me; in fact, I had no cause to complain of his treatment to me.

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/TurConf.html

(-;

Chris
01-30-2012, 08:55 AM
The Killer Angels is a great novel, read it 3 times, twice on my own and once to my father.

I recently finished The Caine Mutiny by Herman Wouk. Not as action packed at The Winds of War, but great detail of daily life on a Pacific destroyer mine sweeper.

Of course To Kill a Mockingbird by Harper Lee is a classic. Read that for the 1st time a few months ago and was delighted. Racism in the south through the eyes of an innocent young girl.

My best recommendation would be William Styron's The Confessions of Nat Turner. Insightful account of what it was like to grow up a slave in 1830s Virginia, culminating in his leadership of one of the deadliest slave rebellions on US soil. Gives a very interesting and thought provoking account of what the institution of slavery was like.

Interesting, all 4 are Pulitzer prize winners for fiction: The Caine Mutiny (1954), To Kill a Mockingbird (1961), The Confessions of Nat Turner (1968), The Killer Angels (1975).

Update - 1776 was pretty good, not great. A very small snippet of the war. Mccullough might be overrated because he's everyone's idea of the wise old white man and has a good voice.

Will check thedr out. I've missed out on a lot of good American literature not growing up here. My goal this year is to start with the 18th century (Letters from an America farmer) and work my way all the way up to the present day... one or two books per movement.

houghtam
01-30-2012, 08:57 AM
The fat lady ain't sung yet, though Paula Deen's got diabetes

http://www.amazon.com/Confederates-Attic-Dispatches-Unfinished-Civil/dp/067975833X

Seriously, I checked this out from the library in the last batch of books, but haven't got around to it yet.

http://www.amazon.com/Midnight-Rising-Brown-Sparked-Civil/dp/080509153X/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_1

I got it because I've read several op eds that as a nation we are approaching the unwillingness to compromise that foreshadowed the civil war. I think that's an overstatemtnt because Wall St will never allow it to happen again, but we are rather polarized.

The John Brown raid has always been interesting to me, though I never approved of his methods. I suppose it's one thing to arm some slaves in hopes of a rebellion. It's another thing entirely to murder people in their sleep in Kansas.

Kaylore
01-30-2012, 09:16 AM
John Adams.

Chris
01-30-2012, 09:18 AM
John Adams.

Did you see the miniseries?

Broncomutt
01-30-2012, 09:43 AM
Styron Lies. Turner was well treated and had no reason to rebel!

Since the commencement of 1830, I had been living with Mr. Joseph Travis, who was to me a kind master, and placed the greatest confidence in me; in fact, I had no cause to complain of his treatment to me.

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/TurConf.html

(-;

I don't recall Styron mentioning abuse of Turner as Turner's motivation for the rebellion, but it's been over 10 years since I read it.

In fact the only abuse I remember in the book was a slave (not Turner) being forced to climb a tree, something that terrified him because he was afraid of heights. I think more people may have expected to read the "K u n t a Kinte" type treatment of slaves, but it doesn't really hold water. I'm sure there were incidents like that, but the truth is slaves were expensive investments.

After the rebellion was crushed, the reprisals agains blacks was horrific though.

Styron does not try to "justify" Turner's rebellion. He simply takes literary license to try and understand what would make a middle aged preacher lead a rebellion that killed 60 people, including children. I thought he did a great job.

But the book is considered very controversial, that is true.

80smith
01-30-2012, 06:12 PM
The Devil in the White City: Murder, Magic, and Madness at the Fair that Changed America.

30146

Their fates were linked by the magical Chicago World’s Fair of 1893, nicknamed the “White City” for its majestic beauty. Architect Daniel Burnham built it; serial killer Dr. H. H. Holmes used it to lure victims to his World’s Fair Hotel, designed for murder. Both men left behind them a powerful legacy, one of brilliance and energy, the other of sorrow and darkness.

http://www.randomhouse.com/crown/devilinthewhitecity/home.html

I'm in the process of finishing this and find it a nice read.

Local station had this on just the other day.

Were Jack the Ripper and Chicago's H.H. Holmes the same person?
http://www.wgntv.com/entertainment/viral/wgntv-jack-the-ripper-in-chicago-were-jack-the-ripper-and-chicagos-hh-holmes-the-same-person-20120125,0,60395.story

loborugger
01-30-2012, 08:02 PM
The Killer Angels - didnt see this one on the list. Histro fiction but still very good.

The Prize - an epic history of oil, not America, but America's recent history & oil go hand in hand.

Nothing Like it in The World - Stephen Ambrose and its not about war. Its about the Transcontinental Railroad.

Billy the Kid - Robert Utley's telling of Billy's Short and violent life.

A Century of War - William Engdahl's story of oil. Has some stuff in it that The Prize leaves out.

The Myth of the Great War - an interesting history of US involvement in WWI that concludes the Dough Boys dont get the credit they deserve.

Broncomutt
01-31-2012, 06:26 AM
Cold Mountain by Charles Frazier is excellent. Reading that was like stepping in a time machine.

Water for Elephants by Sara Gruen is another great one. I thought it was a chick novel, judging by the cover at first, but it's not really. Very good story.

BroncoInferno
01-31-2012, 07:06 AM
This is a very interesting read. Ken Burns produced a documentary based on this book, though I have not seen it yet.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51gC3rhRpTL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

Chris
01-31-2012, 06:35 PM
Cold Mountain by Charles Frazier is excellent. Reading that was like stepping in a time machine.

Water for Elephants by Sara Gruen is another great one. I thought it was a chick novel, judging by the cover at first, but it's not really. Very good story.

Impossible. Those both must be chick novels since my mother has read both of them.

She also read

Divine Secrets of the Ya Ya Sisterhood
600 books on Ann Boleyn

Chick lit is it.