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View Full Version : MJ Vs. Lebron ... How quickly we forget.


TDmvp
06-07-2011, 02:31 AM
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This thread was invoked by me listening to my friends teenage sons and someone in their 20's and someone my age (35) who has watched the finals this year going off on how Lebron is so much better than M.J. and seeing that video later in the day with that tag line How quickly we forget in the topic on the blog...


For starters I hated M.J. when he played and not a big fan of the individual really. He kept my fav player of the era from getting a ring (Reggie Miller) ... Ron Artest didn't help either running into the crowd like a moron F-ing up the best team Reggie ever had ... But I dye grass Hilarious!

Back to M.J. vs Lebron ...
I'm not a Lebron hater as far as the player tho he does come off douche like and the 1 hour special was weak sauce but HE may be the most god given gifted NBA player of all time in my opinion but right now he's just no where near what M.J. was.

There has never been a player in sports history who I literally feared more with the ball in their hands winning or losing in any sport than M.J.

Lebron is a unreal player and maybe the best overall player since Tim Duncan and so gifted but M.J. was just a whole other animal.
Jordan when his team was down big or in close games was the scariest thing ever.

Some nights , when alone and scared I still have flashbacks to Bulls / Pacers , east Finals ... And that Fade away over and over ... jab step jab step , step back fade , or back down fake a drive and step back and fade... He may have been called air Jordan but that fade Kobe copied was the money move...

No one has dominated a sport in the last 30ish years like M.J. did and I don't just mean be in the spotlight I mean win like Bill Russel amounts of titles.
M.J. most likely has 8 straight if he didn't take 2 years off and I used watch about 40 games a year of M.J. and I've seen as much or more of Lebron of the last few (direct tv nba pass) and it's just not even close.


But I seen that video on a blog after hearing my friends talk about it tonight and wanting to punch them and just wanted to rant for a bit...
Don't flame me to hard. :peace:

Agamemnon
06-07-2011, 02:39 AM
Jordan >>>>> Lebron. Not sure how anyone could think otherwise unless they simply never saw Jordan play.

ZONA
06-07-2011, 03:03 AM
I think it's nonsense to even compare the 2 at this point. Lebron only half way through his career. Alot of things could happen. He could win 8 rings, or he could win a few, or none, or have a career ending injury, just a lot of stuff can happen really. Obviouly James is one of the most physically talented players I've ever seen in the NBA. And I think the 2 have similar styles but yet so many things are different. Jordan a much better ball handler and penetrator because he was so quick while James is not as quick but stronger so when he penetrates, it's just a little different looking. Both great shooters. James a better rebounder but Jordan a better clutch player.

I don't think you can have a serious comparison until James plays at least 5 more years.

If there is anybody that we should be comparing to Jordan it's Kobe. That's about the only comparison to Jordan you can make right now that makes any sense at all.

TDmvp
06-07-2011, 03:05 AM
I think it's nonsense to even compare the 2 at this point. Lebron only half way through his career. Alot of things could happen. He could win 8 rings, or he could win a few, or none, or have a career ending injury, just a lot of stuff can happen really. Obviouly James is one of the most physically talented players I've ever seen in the NBA. And I think the 2 have similar styles but yet so many things are different. Jordan a much better ball handler and penetrator because he was so quick while James is not as quick but stronger so when he penetrates, it's just a little different looking. Both great shooters. James a better rebounder but Jordan a better clutch player.

I don't think you can have a serious comparison until James plays at least 5 more years.

:thumbsup:
^5
Pretty much

Garcia Bronco
06-07-2011, 07:18 AM
Lebron isn't even better than Kobe at this point.

jhns
06-07-2011, 07:23 AM
No one compares to Jordan!

I couldn't believe Pippen came out saying Lebron is better. He is such a hater.

Requiem
06-07-2011, 07:27 AM
Dirk Nowitzki is better. Just ask Drama.

chanesaw
06-07-2011, 07:33 AM
Jordan is the best ever. James hasn't even earned the top 5 yet. He may get there one day, but he has a lot more to accomplish to be considered.

OrangeSe7en
06-07-2011, 07:36 AM
Jordan by far. Under these rules, Jordan could score 50 a game. People are often forgetting how the rules have been redesigned to make it easier for perimeter players. When Jordan played, defenses, essentially, could and did whatever they wanted to try to defend him up to and including frequent use of what would now be flagrant fouls. And the league allowed this because Jordan was so unstoppable.

LeBron will probably go down as one of the all time greats but Jordan's on another level.

RhymesayersDU
06-07-2011, 07:54 AM
LeBron probably has more physical tools, but he needs to win. This year is a first step it looks like. But he's got to do it, oh, 5 more times at least.

And yeah, I agree the Pippen statement was ridiculous.

Cmac821
06-07-2011, 08:07 AM
I want to chime in but I never saw Jordan play, so this one is for the post count

Rulon Velvet Jones
06-07-2011, 08:07 AM
ITS THE ONLY ARGUMENT THAT MATTERS, SEAN!!!!

TonyR
06-07-2011, 08:09 AM
Dirk Nowitzki is better. Just ask Drama.

You beat me to it. Some fools, epicfaildramaskillet among them, were actually arguing this point with me on another thread. Clearly people who either didn't watch, or don't remember watching, Jordan play during his peak years.

Beantown Bronco
06-07-2011, 08:28 AM
ITS THE ONLY ARGUMENT THAT MATTERS, SEAN!!!!

I can't wait for that friggin movie to come out...

SonOfLe-loLang
06-07-2011, 09:17 AM
Lebron isn't even better than Kobe at this point.

You cant compare Bron to Jordan yet, but he's a better player than Kobe is. James has lead the league in PER the last FOUR seasons. He may not have that killer instinct Kobe does, but pretty much all his skills are elite...and the guy hasnt even really learned how to play with his back to the basket yet (though you are seeing it a tad in the finals). Kobe was obviously part of 5 championships (lebron is only 26, but who knows how many he might have), but just from a player standpoint? Bron's a better player than Kobe

RhymesayersDU
06-07-2011, 09:24 AM
You cant compare Bron to Jordan yet, but he's a better player than Kobe is. James has lead the league in PER the last FOUR seasons. He may not have that killer instinct Kobe does, but pretty much all his skills are elite...and the guy hasnt even really learned how to play with his back to the basket yet (though you are seeing it a tad in the finals). Kobe was obviously part of 5 championships (lebron is only 26, but who knows how many he might have), but just from a player standpoint? Bron's a better player than Kobe

And that's always going to be the argument for LeBron. He's a walking triple double. If he wins some rings, watch out.

Jason in LA
06-07-2011, 09:50 AM
I hated Jordan and rooted against him ever year. But the guy just didn't want to lose. LeBron isn't close to him.

Jordan didn't need to form a super team to win titles. He had some nice players around him, but he didn't have what LeBron has now, or what the Lakers and Celtics had back in the '80s. Pippen was a nice player, but lets be real, Jordan willed that guy to being a HOFer. If LeBron was that great then he would have won in Cleveland. He didn't have the greatest supporting cast, but he had enough. Yeah, the Cavs sucked after he left, but this years Cavs team was different from the team that LeBron played with.

You can talk stats all day, but LeBron didn't have the drive that Jordan had. It's not even close. The closest thing we've seen to Jordan is Kobe. I'd say anybody arguing that Kobe is better than Jordan is foolish, but he's in the ball park. Kobe has a similar drive. He'll will players to win. Gasol is soft, Bynum is injury prone and inconsistent, Odom won't ever play up to his abilities on a consistent basis, and the only reason Fisher worked in that system was because there isn't a need for the point guard to do much in the triangle. The Lakers won titles with Kobe because he drove them to it. But LeBron, he can't drive anybody to titles. So he needs Wade, who has already driven a team to a title.

Jason in LA
06-07-2011, 09:53 AM
You cant compare Bron to Jordan yet, but he's a better player than Kobe is. James has lead the league in PER the last FOUR seasons. He may not have that killer instinct Kobe does, but pretty much all his skills are elite...and the guy hasnt even really learned how to play with his back to the basket yet (though you are seeing it a tad in the finals). Kobe was obviously part of 5 championships (lebron is only 26, but who knows how many he might have), but just from a player standpoint? Bron's a better player than Kobe

That's what separates them. Some players rack up stats, some players win games. James has never been the winner that Kobe has been. And now that he's formed this super team, which he will be a part of for a decent amount of his prime years, he might not ever be considered a winner like certain players who put their teams on their backs and willed them to win.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-07-2011, 10:07 AM
That's what separates them. Some players rack up stats, some players win games. James has never been the winner that Kobe has been. And now that he's formed this super team, which he will be a part of for a decent amount of his prime years, he might not ever be considered a winner like certain players who put their teams on their backs and willed them to win.


This is patently untrue and simplifying a complicated argument. My test case is the 2011 Cleveland Cavaliers that, though they had some injuries, was among the top two worst teams in basketball. Just last year, this team won 60 games! Whats the difference? LeBron James. He continuously took HORRIBLE Cavs teams on his shoulders and either lead them deep into the playoffs or even the finals. James hasn't won the championships Kobe has (to this point) because LeBron James didnt have the luxury of playing with the Big Fella at the prime of his career. Case in point, during the Lake show's first championship run, Kobe averaged a whopping 15 pts a game. How far would cleveland, or even this miami team go with Lebron averaging 15 points a game and not much else...and this isn't even talking about his defense which will always be the most unappreciated part of his game.

Plus, Kobe's "clutchness" is severely overstated, while Lebron's apparent "lack of clutchness" is equally overstated despite evidence to the contrary (i dont have time to pull up the stats on that, but a google search will do)

Really, LeBron James to this point is the victim of circumstance. As far as public opinion about this "super team" delegitimizing his legacy? It's horse****. Michael Jordan played with a top 5 player during all his championships and always had a nice supporting cast. Kobe had three years with shaq and another two with a pretty dang good supporting cast (including one that saved his horrible performance in game 7 last year).

This is a conversation better left for 10 years from now, but after watching Kobe in his prime (and he was sensational) and Lebron is his prime...Bron is just the more complete player (and the stats back this up). I do fear he'll never form a great jumpshot (due to his fairly massive shoulders), but because of his size, he will adapt with a post game at some point to continue his dominance.

Rulon Velvet Jones
06-07-2011, 10:07 AM
I don't see many players today that have the same drive and work ethic as Jordan did. He would absolutely grill his own teammates and they loved following his lead for doing so. He would talk insane amounts of **** to the other team and then back it up by dropping 40-50 on them, regardless of the competition. Guys today don't do that, especially LeBron.

Garcia Bronco
06-07-2011, 10:08 AM
Btw...Bill Russell is the best player the NBA ever had. Mike is number 2.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-07-2011, 10:10 AM
Lebron has been completely unimpressive offensively in this series apart from pulling three pointers out of his ass.

Good player...not even the best player on his own team...not even close to MJ.

bronco militia
06-07-2011, 10:12 AM
Btw...Bill Russell is the best player the NBA ever had. Mike is number 2.

you're old....go away

:approve:

enjolras
06-07-2011, 10:14 AM
Jordan never had to go find two of the best players in the league to surround himself with. He just went out there and dominated on his own. My god he made Scottie Pippen look like an all-star.

Garcia Bronco
06-07-2011, 10:15 AM
you're old....go away

:approve:

:)

Just about anything Mike Did...Bill Russell did it first:

11 times NBA Champ, player and coach for one of them.
Olympic Gold as an actual non-professional
5 time NBA MVP.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-07-2011, 10:21 AM
Jordan never had to go find two of the best players in the league to surround himself with. He just went out there and dominated on his own. My god he made Scottie Pippen look like an all-star.

Made Scottie Pippen look like an all star? Pippen led a Jordan-less team pretty deep in the playoffs and had a ghost foul on Hubert Davis never been called, they may have made the finals.

Pippen was the most underappreciated player of his time. I think Chuck Daly (did he coach the original dream team?) at one point even stated he was a top 3 player on that team!

And as for Bob claiming Bron isnt even the best on his team? You're ****ing crazy and just a LeBron hater. He hasn't played amazingly the past two games (hardly bad, but not dominant as he's generally not the type to force shots...i think he took 14 last game and was more of a facilitator) but AGAIN, he lead the league in PER the last 4 years.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-07-2011, 10:23 AM
:)

Just about anything Mike Did...Bill Russell did it first:

11 times NBA Champ, player and coach for one of them.
Olympic Gold as an actual non-professional
5 time NBA MVP.

Comparing two different eras, its really impossible to say. Chamberlain was also incredibly dominant and pretty much did what he wanted...crazy that he didnt win more championships, but statistically he was insane and even lead the league in assists one year probably because he felt like it.

Though hardly shocking coming from you, you are always tellin the kids to get off your lawn :D

Garcia Bronco
06-07-2011, 10:32 AM
Comparing two different eras, its really impossible to say. Chamberlain was also incredibly dominant and pretty much did what he wanted...crazy that he didnt win more championships, but statistically he was insane and even lead the league in assists one year probably because he felt like it.

Though hardly shocking coming from you, you are always tellin the kids to get off your lawn :D

The reason Wilt didn't win more is because he had to ..at times.,...play Bill Russell. :P

Garcia Bronco
06-07-2011, 10:33 AM
Made Scottie Pippen look like an all star? Pippen led a Jordan-less team pretty deep in the playoffs and had a ghost foul on Hubert Davis never been called, they may have made the finals.

Pippen was the most underappreciated player of his time. I think Chuck Daly (did he coach the original dream team?) at one point even stated he was a top 3 player on that team!

And as for Bob claiming Bron isnt even the best on his team? You're ****ing crazy and just a LeBron hater. He hasn't played amazingly the past two games (hardly bad, but not dominant as he's generally not the type to force shots...i think he took 14 last game and was more of a facilitator) but AGAIN, he lead the league in PER the last 4 years.

Remember though...and people forget....Phil Jackson wanted filter a game shot through Tony Kukuc (SP) and what did Pippen do? Refused to go in the game. Uttly refused to go in the game. And they lost to the Knicks.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-07-2011, 10:36 AM
Remember though...and people forget....Phil Jackson wanted filter a game shot through Tony Kukuc (SP) and what did Pippen do? Refused to go in the game. Uttly refused to go in the game. And they lost to the Knicks.

So a mental err makes him a poor player? It ws a huge blackmark on his career, one he was reemed for and came back from. Im sure youve played sports, its impossible not to be emotional during intense moments. Im not sure why this fact takes anything away.

worm
06-07-2011, 10:46 AM
I wanna be like 'Lebron' just doesn't have a good ring to it.

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/b0AGiq9j_Ak" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

robbieopperude
06-07-2011, 12:13 PM
Bill Russel won his championships when there were only 8 to 12 teams in the league if I remember correctly. Can you imagine how many Michael would have if he only had to get by 11 other teams to win the championship. His teams of his early years wouldn't have been as watered down either.

Lebron James would be a better comparison to Scottie Pippen then Michael Jordan.

If you are comparing players to Michael than it has to be Kobe. Even though I agree that Kobe was hardly the guy who lead the Lakers to their first couple of Championships. The Diesel had a huge role in them.

Lebron has no post up game at this time and if he doesn't develop some he won't be nearly as dominant in the later stage of his career.

Again I think the arguments should really be if Lebron is better than Scottie Pippen.

TonyR
06-07-2011, 12:20 PM
And as for Bob claiming Bron isnt even the best on his team? You're ****ing crazy and just a LeBron hater. He hasn't played amazingly the past two games (hardly bad, but not dominant as he's generally not the type to force shots...i think he took 14 last game and was more of a facilitator) but AGAIN, he lead the league in PER the last 4 years.

And everyone's forgetting how LeBron carried Miami for most of the Chicago series. Yes, he has deferred some to Wade in the finals but not really a bad guy to defer to.

TDmvp
06-07-2011, 12:25 PM
Bill Russel won his championships when there were only 8 to 12 teams in the league if I remember correctly. Can you imagine how many Michael would have if he only had to get by 11 other teams to win the championship. His teams of his early years wouldn't have been as watered down either.

Lebron James would be a better comparison to Scottie Pippen then Michael Jordan.

If you are comparing players to Michael than it has to be Kobe. Even though I agree that Kobe was hardly the guy who lead the Lakers to their first couple of Championships. The Diesel had a huge role in them.

Lebron has no post up game at this time and if he doesn't develop some he won't be nearly as dominant in the later stage of his career.

Again I think the arguments should really be if Lebron is better than Scottie Pippen.

Great post ...

DemonEagles
06-07-2011, 12:28 PM
Lebron's game is ugly

DemonEagles
06-07-2011, 12:29 PM
Jordan does lead the league i hitler mustaches

TDmvp
06-07-2011, 12:33 PM
Jordan does lead the league i hitler mustaches

:spit::spit::spit:

No Doubt ... The first time me and the GF seen that ad she was like OMG why is Jordon rocking a Hitler stach... and every time we would see that ad we would joke about it. Then Norm Mcdonald did a bit about it on his show.

Glad tho we aint the only ones who was like WTF Mike , that's just wrong.

Gcver2ver3
06-07-2011, 12:39 PM
Bill Russel won his championships when there were only 8 to 12 teams in the league if I remember correctly. Can you imagine how many Michael would have if he only had to get by 11 other teams to win the championship. His teams of his early years wouldn't have been as watered down either.

Lebron James would be a better comparison to Scottie Pippen then Michael Jordan.

If you are comparing players to Michael than it has to be Kobe. Even though I agree that Kobe was hardly the guy who lead the Lakers to their first couple of Championships. The Diesel had a huge role in them.

Lebron has no post up game at this time and if he doesn't develop some he won't be nearly as dominant in the later stage of his career.

Again I think the arguments should really be if Lebron is better than Scottie Pippen.

Pippen was tremendous but no LBJ doesn't get compared to Pip...

LBJ is a multiple mvp winner and Pip never finished higher than 3rd i believe...

LBJ is the most atheletic freak i've ever seen, but that and his amazing abilties still lose out to MJs drive, leadership, and also amazing ability...

i'd be curious to see how LBJs game adjusts to decline in atheleticism...

the reason MJ is goat mode IMO is because his game adjusted incredibly to his decline is physical ability...

FantomForce
06-07-2011, 12:42 PM
BETTER DEFENDER LEBEBRON??!?!!!?

Do this Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring and win Defensive Player of the Year in the same season (1987–88)


and then we'll start the conversation

RhymesayersDU
06-07-2011, 12:44 PM
Lebron has been completely unimpressive offensively in this series apart from pulling three pointers out of his ass.

Good player...not even the best player on his own team...not even close to MJ.

He's averaging 20/6/6 and has only allowed 2 FG's to be scored on him in all the 4th quarters combined.

Tell me who is having a better overall series?

Scoring matters, don't get me wrong, but it's not everything. He's playing fantastic.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-07-2011, 12:50 PM
Bill Russel won his championships when there were only 8 to 12 teams in the league if I remember correctly. Can you imagine how many Michael would have if he only had to get by 11 other teams to win the championship. His teams of his early years wouldn't have been as watered down either.

Lebron James would be a better comparison to Scottie Pippen then Michael Jordan.

If you are comparing players to Michael than it has to be Kobe. Even though I agree that Kobe was hardly the guy who lead the Lakers to their first couple of Championships. The Diesel had a huge role in them.

Lebron has no post up game at this time and if he doesn't develop some he won't be nearly as dominant in the later stage of his career.

Again I think the arguments should really be if Lebron is better than Scottie Pippen.

I never thought lebron would be underrated. Leads the league in PER four straight years, and youre comparing him to pippen...a FINE player, a great player, but come on. Its just to early to start making this comparison. Lebron may be 35 with 6 rings for all we know and then its a discussion. But right now, especially if the Heat win, his future looks damn bright.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-07-2011, 12:51 PM
BETTER DEFENDER LEBEBRON??!?!!!?

Do this Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring and win Defensive Player of the Year in the same season (198788)


and then we'll start the conversation

Why do people take an arbitrary award like D-player of the year and use it like it has some kind of statistical merit. Its like when people use Gold Glove awards as a sign of defensive prowess.

Willynowei
06-07-2011, 01:08 PM
Pippen was the better Small Forward, by far. Lebron might be the more capable ball player though. As an alpha dog though, I wouldn't even take Lebron as the leader of that Heat team.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-07-2011, 01:14 PM
Pippen was the better Small Forward, by far. Lebron might be the more capable ball player though. As an alpha dog though, I wouldn't even take Lebron as the leader of that Heat team.

You guys are insane. INSANE!!!!!!!

jsco70
06-07-2011, 05:06 PM
Jordan has the killer instinct like few others. He willed his team to win. Jordan IS the best player to ever grace the basketball court.

Those who trash Lebron though are off base in my opinion. The guy clearly has skills that only a few can even come close to comparing. He's also going to get better. His problem is he seems like a good teamate, perfectly willing to take a backseat if necessary. Read the Rick Riley story on ESPN.com. I agree with it completely.

Dedhed
06-07-2011, 05:22 PM
As an alpha dog though, I wouldn't even take Lebron as the leader of that Heat team.He isn't the leader of that team.

Lebron has always been more concerned about his brand than he has been about being the greatest player. With the antics of the "I'm taking my talents to south beach", he made sure that he will never be realistically called the greatest ever.

The greatest always build a legacy around themselves. Bird, Magic, Jordan, Elway, etc. Instead of building a franchise and staking his legacy to it, he completely sold out.

OrangeSe7en
06-07-2011, 06:02 PM
lol @ Russell as the best of all time. He wasn't even the best center of his own time, let alone all time or best player of all time (of all things).

maher_tyler
06-07-2011, 06:24 PM
If Jordan didn't retire they win 8 in a row!! Imagine that with a 3rd All Star player on the team. What was the Bulls starting line-up..Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Longley and (Toni)Kukoc??

Other than Pippen and Rodman...Jordan pretty much played with no bodies..Lebron has no excuse.

OrangeSe7en
06-07-2011, 07:18 PM
If Jordan didn't retire they win 8 in a row!! Imagine that with a 3rd All Star player on the team. What was the Bulls starting line-up..Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Longley and (Toni)Kukoc??

Other than Pippen and Rodman...Jordan pretty much played with no bodies..Lebron has no excuse.

Yeah, but on that team, you had the best scorer and player of all time in Jordan (and likely a top 15 defender of all time), the best perimeter defender of all time in Pippen, and possibly the best rebounder of all time in Rodman who did a lot of other dirty work. Granted, Pippen, to a large extent, was a creation of Jordan but Pippen still deserves credit for having the backbone to be the guy to accept Jordan's challenge.

BroncoMan4ever
06-07-2011, 07:34 PM
Lebron is a phenomenal talent there is no doubting that, but you can't say he is better than the best players ever (i personally lean more towards Wilt that Jordan kind of a 1A and 1B) when you can't positively say he is better he is even the best player in the league right now, because Kobe still has him beat as best in the game right now

BroncoMan4ever
06-07-2011, 07:39 PM
He isn't the leader of that team.

Lebron has always been more concerned about his brand than he has been about being the greatest player. With the antics of the "I'm taking my talents to south beach", he made sure that he will never be realistically called the greatest ever.

The greatest always build a legacy around themselves. Bird, Magic, Jordan, Elway, etc. Instead of building a franchise and staking his legacy to it, he completely sold out.

that is my problem with Lebron right now. i understand him wanting to win titles and respect that he decided to go where he believes he stood the best chance for winning. but the best players of all time didn't decide to jump ship and join up with the other superstars of their time to make an easier go at getting a ring.

Barkley would never leave Phoenix for Chicago, Reggie Miller would have never left Indiana for Chicago. those guys and the superstars that preceded them wanted to beat the other superstars in the league with them. they wanted superiority over one another not to join up together

TonyR
06-07-2011, 07:44 PM
The greatest always build a legacy around themselves. Bird, Magic, Jordan, Elway, etc. Instead of building a franchise and staking his legacy to it, he completely sold out.

A little early to say that LeBron can't "build a franchise and stake his legacy to it" in Miami. For all we know they win 5 straight titles with LeBron as the centerpiece. Give it some time, the guy's only 26. Jordan didn't win his first title until his 7th year in the league.

TonyR
06-07-2011, 07:45 PM
Barkley would never leave Phoenix for Chicago...

LOL Barkley left Philly for Phoenix!

BroncoMan4ever
06-07-2011, 07:48 PM
A little early to say that LeBron can't "build a franchise and stake his legacy to it" in Miami. For all we know they win 5 straight titles with LeBron as the centerpiece. Give it some time, the guy's only 26. Jordan didn't win his first title until his 7th year in the league.

he isn't the centerpiece in Miami. he jumped ship and joined Wade's team.

BroncoMan4ever
06-07-2011, 07:53 PM
LOL Barkley left Philly for Phoenix!

you are missing the point. i am saying he wouldn't have pulled a Lebron and joined up with Jordan to get a ring.

Barkley asked to leave Philly because they sucked, he didn't decide where he wanted to go.

houghtam
06-07-2011, 07:57 PM
This is patently untrue and simplifying a complicated argument. My test case is the 2011 Cleveland Cavaliers that, though they had some injuries, was among the top two worst teams in basketball. Just last year, this team won 60 games! Whats the difference? LeBron James. He continuously took HORRIBLE Cavs teams on his shoulders and either lead them deep into the playoffs or even the finals. James hasn't won the championships Kobe has (to this point) because LeBron James didnt have the luxury of playing with the Big Fella at the prime of his career. Case in point, during the Lake show's first championship run, Kobe averaged a whopping 15 pts a game. How far would cleveland, or even this miami team go with Lebron averaging 15 points a game and not much else...and this isn't even talking about his defense which will always be the most unappreciated part of his game.

Plus, Kobe's "clutchness" is severely overstated, while Lebron's apparent "lack of clutchness" is equally overstated despite evidence to the contrary (i dont have time to pull up the stats on that, but a google search will do)

Really, LeBron James to this point is the victim of circumstance. As far as public opinion about this "super team" delegitimizing his legacy? It's horse****. Michael Jordan played with a top 5 player during all his championships and always had a nice supporting cast. Kobe had three years with shaq and another two with a pretty dang good supporting cast (including one that saved his horrible performance in game 7 last year).

This is a conversation better left for 10 years from now, but after watching Kobe in his prime (and he was sensational) and Lebron is his prime...Bron is just the more complete player (and the stats back this up). I do fear he'll never form a great jumpshot (due to his fairly massive shoulders), but because of his size, he will adapt with a post game at some point to continue his dominance.

So your barometer is making bad teams into good teams? You just described Phillip Rivers. IMO taking a team from good to great (not to mention one of the all-time great) >>>>>> taking a team from horrible to good.

TonyR
06-07-2011, 09:01 PM
he isn't the centerpiece in Miami. he jumped ship and joined Wade's team.

You could make an argument that he was the team's best player over the course of the whole season. You could also argue he's been their best player this postseason up until the finals. And you don't know what tomorrow holds. LeBron probably has more tread on his tires than Wade.

TonyR
06-07-2011, 09:02 PM
Barkley asked to leave Philly because they sucked, he didn't decide where he wanted to go.

Did you see what happened to Cleveland this year without LeBron? Clearly they "sucked" too when LeBron wasn't carrying them.

OrangeSe7en
06-07-2011, 09:04 PM
Did you see what happened to Cleveland this year without LeBron? Clearly they "sucked" too when LeBron wasn't carrying them.

Yeah, I saw what happened when James made his decision so late in free agency that Cleveland had almost no options.

TonyR
06-07-2011, 09:05 PM
Yeah, I saw what happened when James made his decision so late in free agency that Cleveland had almost no options.

So then you're admitting they had no other talent, right? (you did just admit it, even if you don't realize it)

OrangeSe7en
06-07-2011, 09:19 PM
So then you're admitting they had no other talent, right? (you did just admit it, even if you don't realize it)

Thats not what that means. It means they were a 60 win team that lost their best player and had no opportunity to repace him because he so thoroughly d*cked them over. Thats what it means.

Here's an example that you, perhaps, can understand. Earlier last year, the Cavs had the chance to land Amare Stoudemire. If you have LeBron and have a team that emphasizes defense around having LeBron, perhaps you choose someone who plays defense better than Amare. If you know youre losing LeBron, perhaps you acquire Amare.

DBroncos4life
06-07-2011, 10:26 PM
Thats not what that means. It means they were a 60 win team that lost their best player and had no opportunity to repace him because he so thoroughly d*cked them over. Thats what it means.

Here's an example that you, perhaps, can understand. Earlier last year, the Cavs had the chance to land Amare Stoudemire. If you have LeBron and have a team that emphasizes defense around having LeBron, perhaps you choose someone who plays defense better than Amare. If you know youre losing LeBron, perhaps you acquire Amare.

The Suns backed out of the trade. They did everything they could to get James the help he wanted but the Suns just wouldn't part with Stoudemire. So the Cavs in the late hours got Jamison.

Anyone that watched James quit during the Celtics series knows that James isn't a leader that MJ was and as much as I hate him Bryant is.

BroncoMan4ever
06-07-2011, 11:24 PM
A little early to say that LeBron can't "build a franchise and stake his legacy to it" in Miami. For all we know they win 5 straight titles with LeBron as the centerpiece. Give it some time, the guy's only 26. Jordan didn't win his first title until his 7th year in the league.

look at the finals going on right now and tell me who is the best player in Miami.

Wade is that team's heart and it's best player in the biggest games.

Rulon Velvet Jones
06-07-2011, 11:32 PM
Well, guess we can close this thread. Check out MJ's totals in Finals games. 8 points? Not even close.

SonOfLe-loLang
06-07-2011, 11:43 PM
Yeah, bad performance tonight. Though had he put up 40, we could close the MJ argument. He needs to step it up. Much better player than this.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
06-07-2011, 11:56 PM
Jordan never had to go find two of the best players in the league to surround himself with....

...only to stand around and watch while those other two players did most of the heavy lifting in the finals. Ha!

Liquid Courage
06-08-2011, 12:00 AM
Lebron isn't even the best player on his own team . . .

epicSocialism4tw
06-08-2011, 12:06 AM
LeBron James is the third best player in this series.

Michael Jordan?

Yeah right.

briane
06-08-2011, 12:11 AM
Eff LeBron..... MJ will always be better than him!

epicSocialism4tw
06-08-2011, 12:11 AM
The story of this series isn't Dirk vs. LeBarn...its Dirk vs. Wade and Bosh with a bit of LeBarn in there for good measure.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-08-2011, 12:21 AM
It was pleasurable to see the broadcast showing tape of Jordan's flu game tonight after Dirk won the game with the bug....

If Lebron had the flu he'd probably take himself out.

Meanwhile he hasn't been compared to Jordan once...not once. In four games.

epicSocialism4tw
06-08-2011, 12:24 AM
It was pleasurable to see the broadcast showing tape of Jordan's flu game tonight after Dirk won the game with the bug....

If Lebron had the flu he'd probably take himself out.

Meanwhile he hasn't been compared to Jordan once...not once. In four games.

4 games through the Finals, James is a spectator to the Dirk and Wade show.

BroncoMan4ever
06-08-2011, 12:40 AM
Yeah, bad performance tonight. Though had he put up 40, we could close the MJ argument. He needs to step it up. Much better player than this.

i am beginning to wonder with Lebron, is he another in the line of great regular season players who fold when the pressure is on and the games mean so much more. he has played ok in this series aside from game 4 with his 8 points but he has been far from the player he was all season and his entire career.

DivineBronco
06-08-2011, 02:25 AM
Yeah, bad performance tonight. Though had he put up 40, we could close the MJ argument. He needs to step it up. Much better player than this.

and how many times with Jordan did you have to make the statement....."Though had he....blah blah blah"
you make it sound like if only LeBron had made a couple more shots.............

Garcia Bronco
06-08-2011, 06:33 AM
Jordon and the Bulls...and people don't remember this...had a hard time getting past the Pistons and Celtics for years.

Garcia Bronco
06-08-2011, 06:36 AM
lol @ Russell as the best of all time. He wasn't even the best center of his own time, let alone all time or best player of all time (of all things).
But he was the best player on his team:
11 NBA Championships. It's the only argument I need.

strafen
06-08-2011, 06:53 AM
LeBron couldn't carry MJ's jockstraps...

TonyR
06-08-2011, 07:27 AM
look at the finals going on right now and tell me who is the best player in Miami.

Wade is that team's heart and it's best player in the biggest games.

LeBron had an inexcusably poor performance last night but after the Chicago series you would've been saying close to the opposite. LeBron carried the team in that series. It's certainly fair to question LeBron, particularly after a dud like that, but he was the team's best player over the course of the season (best PER in the league for the 4th year in a row) and it's way too early to completely write him off based primarily on one game.

All that said, LeBron will never be MJ.

OrangeSe7en
06-08-2011, 07:28 AM
But he was the best player on his team:
11 NBA Championships. It's the only argument I need.

No, Im afraid you need a lot more than that. Look at Russell's numbers on offense. Also, for as much as people talk about how much less Wilt scored against Russell, Wilt still had the better numbers head to head.

And face it, the league wasnt nearly as competitive back in those days.

OrangeSe7en
06-08-2011, 07:34 AM
Jordon and the Bulls...and people don't remember this...had a hard time getting past the Pistons and Celtics for years.

Those years against the Celtics it was Jordan and no one else. Against the Pistons, the league allowed the Pistons to change the "rules" in terms of how aggressive you could be defensively. The whole reason the Pistons resorted to this style of play was because they were tired of Jordan scoring 50+ on them. And even with the league allowing this thuggery, the Bulls pushed them to 6 and then 7 games with an extremely raw supporting cast. Had the league not allowed the Pistons to redefine what a foul was, the Bulls title run could have started 2 years earlier. The Bulls also would have won the title in 94 and 95 and most likely 99 had Jordan not retired. It was 6 but it could have easily been 11 in a row.

oubronco
06-08-2011, 07:39 AM
Lebron is nowhere near as good as Jordan, hell Lebron isn't even better than Wade

SonOfLe-loLang
06-08-2011, 09:07 AM
and how many times with Jordan did you have to make the statement....."Though had he....blah blah blah"
you make it sound like if only LeBron had made a couple more shots.............

Im not really sure what youre getting at. Did you read what i said?

SonOfLe-loLang
06-08-2011, 09:09 AM
i am beginning to wonder with Lebron, is he another in the line of great regular season players who fold when the pressure is on and the games mean so much more. he has played ok in this series aside from game 4 with his 8 points but he has been far from the player he was all season and his entire career.

This is silly. He played a bad game. Suddenly people forget how awesome and clutch he was during the chicago and boston series. He's deferring to wade at the moment because D-wade is playing awesome, but yes, Bron needs to step it up a few notches...hes much better than this obviously

Dedhed
06-08-2011, 11:59 AM
A little early to say that LeBron can't "build a franchise and stake his legacy to it" in Miami. For all we know they win 5 straight titles with LeBron as the centerpiece. Give it some time, the guy's only 26. Jordan didn't win his first title until his 7th year in the league.

Umm...it's not at all early. He ditched his chance to do that when he left Cleveland. He could win the next 6 titles at this point and it still wouldn't measure up to what Jordan did in Chicago.

By teaming up with wade he's taken away any chance at a legacy like MJ's.

Dedhed
06-08-2011, 12:04 PM
This is silly. He played a bad game. Suddenly people forget how awesome and clutch he was during the chicago and boston series. He's deferring to wade at the moment because D-wade is playing awesome, but yes, Bron needs to step it up a few notches...hes much better than this obviously

Sub in a 26 year old Jordan for lebron in this series, and its already over. There is no way the mavs win either of the games they've won with Jordan on the floor.

cousinal11
06-08-2011, 12:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alijpYhHtyk

Until lebron has 10 of these and a few rings, I don't wanna hear it.

Dedhed
06-08-2011, 12:10 PM
Yeah, bad performance tonight. Though had he put up 40, we could close the MJ argument.

Really! Why, because mj never had a 40 point game in the playoffs? You're making it very clear that you never saw jordan play, or are just a complete lebron homer.

Jordan put up 35 in a half in the finals.

I literally didn't notice Lebron once in last nights game. You could NEVER say that in any game where MJ was on the floor, let alone in the NBA finals. The argument for Lebron is nothing but laughable at this point.

Inkana7
06-08-2011, 12:24 PM
No, Im afraid you need a lot more than that. Look at Russell's numbers on offense. Also, for as much as people talk about how much less Wilt scored against Russell, Wilt still had the better numbers head to head.

And face it, the league wasnt nearly as competitive back in those days.

Yet Wilt only beat Russell something like 1 or 2 times in the playoffs, no?

Inkana7
06-08-2011, 12:29 PM
So then you're admitting they had no other talent, right? (you did just admit it, even if you don't realize it)

The "look at Cleveland's record, they had no talent" argument doesn't hold much water, since most of the good role players that played in LeBron's last year as a Cav were hurt. Most notably All-NBA Defender Anderson Varejao.

TonyR
06-08-2011, 12:47 PM
Umm...it's not at all early. He ditched his chance to do that when he left Cleveland. He could win the next 6 titles at this point and it still wouldn't measure up to what Jordan did in Chicago.

By teaming up with wade he's taken away any chance at a legacy like MJ's.

I didn't realize that Jordan was the only yardstick. I'm certainly not saying LeBron is, or ever will be, MJ. What I am saying is that he can have a great career and legacy, something you ruled out in the original post of yours to which I responded.

Garcia Bronco
06-08-2011, 12:48 PM
No, Im afraid you need a lot more than that. Look at Russell's numbers on offense. Also, for as much as people talk about how much less Wilt scored against Russell, Wilt still had the better numbers head to head.

And face it, the league wasnt nearly as competitive back in those days.

It was just as competitive if not more so, because those guys were playing for pride...not just a paycheck.

11 NBA Championships...Wilt Chamberlain had 2. Heck Russell even had the same number of MVP's and more finals MVP's. Statics me **** if you don't win games. 8 years ago Priest Holmes gained 307 all purpose yards for KC with no kick returns and it didn't mean **** because the Chiefs lost that day.

TonyR
06-08-2011, 12:55 PM
The "look at Cleveland's record, they had no talent" argument doesn't hold much water, since most of the good role players that played in LeBron's last year as a Cav were hurt. Most notably All-NBA Defender Anderson Varejao.

Look, Cleveland went from league best 61-21 with LeBron to 2nd worst 19-63 without him. That's a 42 game swing. Only teams with strong talent win 61 games. Teams with strong talent don't lose 63. What/who was the talent differential between these two teams? I rest my case. Hate LeBron all you want, that's your right. But recognize his talent and impact.

DBroncos4life
06-08-2011, 12:56 PM
I didn't realize that Jordan was the only yardstick. I'm certainly not saying LeBron is, or ever will be, MJ. What I am saying is that he can have a great career and legacy, something you ruled out in the original post of yours to which I responded.

James quit after the Cavs went up two games to one vs the Celtics. That in my mind is his legacy. He will always be a "great" player but, guys like Jordan, Bird, Magic, and Bryant wouldn't quit on there teams in the middle of the playoffs.

DBroncos4life
06-08-2011, 01:03 PM
Look, Cleveland went from league best 61-21 with LeBron to 2nd worst 19-63 without him. That's a 42 game swing. Only teams with strong talent win 61 games. Teams with strong talent don't lose 63. What/who was the talent differential between these two teams? I rest my case. Hate LeBron all you want, that's your right. But recognize his talent and impact.

You do realize that the Cavs next two best players outside of James missed a lot of playing time don't you? Jamison the teams leading scorer missed the last 21 games and Anderson Varejao only played in 31 games. Of course they are not a good enough team to lose one of the best players in the NBA in free agency and then have it two best players miss lots of playing time.

In the end the Cavs just have to draft well and they will be back in the running soon enough.

TonyR
06-08-2011, 01:12 PM
That in my mind is his legacy.

It is right now. But if Miami reels off 5 championships that will be largely forgotten. Time and winning cure a lot of ills.

TonyR
06-08-2011, 01:14 PM
You do realize that the Cavs next two best players outside of James missed a lot of playing time don't you?

When the two players are Jamison and Varejao I think my case is strengthened rather than weakened...

DBroncos4life
06-08-2011, 01:27 PM
When the two players are Jamison and Varejao I think my case is strengthened rather than weakened...

Ok so the Cavs lose the 18 points and 6.7 per game from Jamison and replace it with 7.8 points per game and 4.3 from Samardo Samuels.

Jamison is old but he is still a much better player then Samuels lol. The Cavs got worse without Jamison. It's hard to win when you get WORSE!

As for Varejao the guy is all heart and hustle. You can't replace that on the court.

Inkana7
06-08-2011, 01:35 PM
Varejao is awesome. Most Cavs fans love him for the hustle plays, but the dude is seriously a lockdown defender in the paint.

DBroncos4life
06-08-2011, 01:38 PM
Varejao is awesome. Most Cavs fans love him for the hustle plays, but the dude is seriously a lockdown defender in the paint.

I agree. I think the trade talks involving him suck but, I understand that the team wants to get younger and better fast.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
06-08-2011, 01:50 PM
i am beginning to wonder with Lebron, is he another in the line of great regular season players who fold when the pressure is on and the games mean so much more.

That's been the story of LeHype's career so far.

Dedhed
06-08-2011, 02:02 PM
I didn't realize that Jordan was the only yardstick. I'm certainly not saying LeBron is, or ever will be, MJ. What I am saying is that he can have a great career and legacy, something you ruled out in the original post of yours to which I responded.

Did you forget what this thread is titled?

My point is that regardless of what he does in Miami he won't have built a legacy, he'll have bought one in essence, thereby cheapening its value.

Its similar to comparing the man who builds a business from scratch vs the guy who buys a business using his father's money and then calls himself a great business man. While that may be true, his legacy doesn't compare to the guy who achieved great success entire on his own merit and the sweat of his own brow.

epicSocialism4tw
06-08-2011, 03:45 PM
You do realize that the Cavs next two best players outside of James missed a lot of playing time don't you? Jamison the teams leading scorer missed the last 21 games and Anderson Varejao only played in 31 games. Of course they are not a good enough team to lose one of the best players in the NBA in free agency and then have it two best players miss lots of playing time.

In the end the Cavs just have to draft well and they will be back in the running soon enough.

Mo Williams was traded and Delonte West left as well.

JJ Hickson was Cleveland's best player. Enough said.

epicSocialism4tw
06-08-2011, 03:45 PM
It is right now. But if Miami reels off 5 championships that will be largely forgotten. Time and winning cure a lot of ills.

Miami hasn't reeled off one championship, much less 5.

strafen
06-08-2011, 04:01 PM
Miami hasn't reeled off one championship, much less 5.

2006 against Dallas, matter of fact. Pat Riley was the HC

epicSocialism4tw
06-08-2011, 04:05 PM
2006 against Dallas, matter of fact. Pat Riley was the HC

He was talking about this Miami team with LeBarn James, sweetie.

strafen
06-08-2011, 04:12 PM
He was talking about this Miami team with LeBarn James, sweetie.It's not what he's talking about. It's what you've said, and this is what you've said:
Miami hasn't reeled off one championship, much less 5

gunns
06-08-2011, 04:30 PM
No one has dominated a sport in the last 30ish years like M.J. did and I don't just mean be in the spotlight I mean win like Bill Russel amounts of titles.
M.J. most likely has 8 straight if he didn't take 2 years off and I used watch about 40 games a year of M.J. and I've seen as much or more of Lebron of the last few (direct tv nba pass) and it's just not even close.




I was going to say kind of like how soon they forget Russell when Jordan came out. The above quote has an awful lot of "ifs" in it.

TDmvp
06-08-2011, 04:35 PM
I was going to say kind of like how soon they forget Russell when Jordan came out. The above quote has an awful lot of "ifs" in it.



I'm a Celtics fan Gunns... Who hated Jordan. But Russell wasn't even the best player of his era , he was just the best leader and was surrounded with HOF's .

Plus there was only 8! teams then.... You can't really compare that era to now fairly.


And the above post you posted only had 1 IF in it for the record. That being IF Jordan doesn't take 2 years off he had 8 titles... If you see more IFS then that please point them out...

TerrElway
06-08-2011, 04:51 PM
You beat me to it. Some fools, epicfaildramaskillet among them, were actually arguing this point with me on another thread. Clearly people who either didn't watch, or don't remember watching, Jordan play during his peak years.

No, your avatar is better Tony. I look for your posts just to see it!

I was telling my teenagers why Jordan is better (this from a Jazz fan) and why he is the GOAT.

I think the most intriguing part of the converstation is whether engineering his playing status (going to southbeach with DWade and the Walking Catfish) detracts from any legacy he may establish.

A truly great player elevates those around him. I would argue DWade is (at this point) a greater player based on the fact that he won a title already at roughly the same point in his career without an all star team (he DID however, have a younger Shaq) while BronBron hasn't been able to do the same.

So does it really make LeBron less of a candidate for GOAT because he helped put together 3/5ths of an All Star team?

Players that do this (and that seems to be the trend) have every right to do it, but it knocks them down a notch IMO when you start talking about legacy.

I really don't know that we will ever see someone like Jordan again. He changed the game. Chamberlain changed it before him. Who else has truly and fundamentally changed the game?

I agree with the poster who said a more salient comparison would be LeBron and Kobe. Bron ain't there yet and as great as Kobe is, he's no MJ.

Garcia Bronco
06-08-2011, 05:02 PM
And actually to me Jordon is number 3 behind Abdul-Jabar..so there you go.

Inkana7
06-08-2011, 05:29 PM
And actually to me Jordon is number 3 behind Abdul-Jabar..so there you go.

Yeah but what about Jordan?

OrangeCrush2724
06-08-2011, 05:39 PM
Did you forget what this thread is titled?

My point is that regardless of what he does in Miami he won't have built a legacy, he'll have bought one in essence, thereby cheapening its value.

Its similar to comparing the man who builds a business from scratch vs the guy who buys a business using his father's money and then calls himself a great business man. While that may be true, his legacy doesn't compare to the guy who achieved great success entire on his own merit and the sweat of his own brow.

Although I agree that James is not MJ. I don't think anybody is or could be. James doesn't want to be compared (otherwise he wouldn't have left Cleveland).

But no one did it by themselves. Bird had HOF, MJ had Pippen, Magic had Kareem, Kobe had Pau.

OrangeSe7en
06-08-2011, 05:44 PM
Yet Wilt only beat Russell something like 1 or 2 times in the playoffs, no?

No would be the correct answer. The Celtics usually beat teams that Wilt played on.

OrangeSe7en
06-08-2011, 05:53 PM
It was just as competitive if not more so, because those guys were playing for pride...not just a paycheck.

No it wasnt. Russell and Chamberlain played in a league of 6'5" white guys.


11 NBA Championships...Wilt Chamberlain had 2. Heck Russell even had the same number of MVP's and more finals MVP's.

All that says is that Auerbach was a better coach than who was coaching the teams Wilt played for and also that the other players on Wilts teams werent as good as those on the Celtics.

Statics me **** if you don't win games. 8 years ago Priest Holmes gained 307 all purpose yards for KC with no kick returns and it didn't mean **** because the Chiefs lost that day.

Wilt helped his teams win games more than Russell did. As mentioned, the Celtics had better other players and a better coach. And sorry but you cant play your entire career a foot from the basket against a bunch of unathletic 6'5" guys and have a FG% of 45%. Thats absolutely awful. Wilt played offense and defense.

Olajuwon was better than Russell.

TonyR
06-08-2011, 07:04 PM
Miami hasn't reeled off one championship, much less 5.

Thanks for the info. Any more great stuff to contribute?

Bob's your Information Minister
06-08-2011, 07:26 PM
Lebron should just come out of his closet.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/hDOsuLG3lGs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

RhymesayersDU
06-08-2011, 08:06 PM
You guys should look up Bill Simmons' book regarding Russell vs. Wilt. Great analysis.

Dedhed
06-08-2011, 08:18 PM
James doesn't want to be compared (otherwise he wouldn't have left Cleveland).

But no one did it by themselves. Bird had HOF, MJ had Pippen, Magic had Kareem, Kobe had Pau.

And now it would be more apt to compare him to Pippen, Pau, and Parish because he's second fiddle on his team.

epicSocialism4tw
06-08-2011, 08:44 PM
Thanks for the info. Any more great stuff to contribute?

You talk about LeBarn's "championships" as though they have already happened. Its part of your set of assumptions here.

Those assumptions should be pulled out of your brain and discarded.

epicSocialism4tw
06-08-2011, 08:45 PM
Although I agree that James is not MJ. I don't think anybody is or could be. James doesn't want to be compared (otherwise he wouldn't have left Cleveland).

But no one did it by themselves. Bird had HOF, MJ had Pippen, Magic had Kareem, Kobe had Pau.

Olajuwon did.

And Dirk is doing it as we speak.

TonyR
06-08-2011, 08:46 PM
Great article on LeBron.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/6640925/time-lebrondown-part-ii

The whole thing is really worth reading but for the lazy here's a cut:


..."So whaddya think about LeBron James?"

Here's my opinion in four parts:

a. I think he's one of the greatest athletes who ever lived. I will never forget watching him in person with a full head of steam, blowing through opponents like a Pop Warner running back who's 30 pounds heavier and three seconds faster than everyone else. I am glad he passed through my life. I will tell my grandkids that I saw him play.

b. From game to game, I think the ceiling for his performance surpasses any other basketball player ever except for Wilt and Jordan.

c. As a basketball junkie, I will never totally forgive him for spending his first eight years in the NBA without ever learning a single post-up move. That weapon would make him immortal. He doesn't care. It's maddening.

d. In pressure moments, he comes and goes and when it goes, it's gone. He starts throwing hot-potato passes, stops driving to the basket, shies away from open 3s, stands in the corner, hides as much as someone that gifted can hide on a basketball court. It started happening in Game 3, then fully manifested itself in Game 4's stunning collapse, when he wouldn't even consider beating DeShawn Stevenson off the dribble. Afterward, one of my closest basketball friends someone who has been defending LeBron's ceiling for years finally threw up his hands and gave up. "It's over," he said. "Jordan never would have done THAT."

If you want to defend LeBron's Game 4, start here: That was his 99th game for Miami, each doubling as a playoff game for the other team. Because the Heat realized in training camp that their defense would determine their title hopes, LeBron reinvented himself as Pippen 2.0 on that end defending four positions, covering more of the court than anyone since Scottie, roaming much like an All-Pro safety would. He did it with a bull's-eye on his back, with every opposing crowd killing him, with a slew of new teammates and a depleted roster for much of the season. During Rounds 2 and 3, he did things that frankly, we've never seen on a basketball court before. His last two Chicago games rank among the greatest two-way games ever played: He did anything he wanted offensively and destroyed the league's MVP defensively. Including these first four Finals games, he's missed 49 minutes total in the past 13 games (including two overtimes), playing 587 of a possible 634 minutes at warp speed. Maybe he's just wearing down. From everything. That would be the defense.

The counter: Pre-baseball Jordan thrived with that same bull's-eye, logged those same minutes, and never wore down. He also made us feel like he would commit multiple murders not one murder, multiple murders just to win an important game. On Miami's team, only Wade makes you feel like that. It's true.

OrangeSe7en
06-08-2011, 08:50 PM
I was going to say kind of like how soon they forget Russell when Jordan came out. The above quote has an awful lot of "ifs" in it.

The reason they forget Russell is because it's not even close. The guy played his whole career a foot from the basket during an era where the average NBA player was a 6'5 white guy and shot around 45% from the field. Thats awful. And his FT shooting sucked as well.

Russell was the defensive cornerstone of the best team from that era, nothing more. He wasn't as good as Wilt. He's an all time great but way overhyped due to an overtendency to focus on rings.

OrangeSe7en
06-08-2011, 09:04 PM
Great article on LeBron.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/6640925/time-lebrondown-part-ii

The whole thing is really worth reading but for the lazy here's a cut:


..."So whaddya think about LeBron James?"

Here's my opinion in four parts:

a. I think he's one of the greatest athletes who ever lived. I will never forget watching him in person with a full head of steam, blowing through opponents like a Pop Warner running back who's 30 pounds heavier and three seconds faster than everyone else. I am glad he passed through my life. I will tell my grandkids that I saw him play.

b. From game to game, I think the ceiling for his performance surpasses any other basketball player ever except for Wilt and Jordan.

c. As a basketball junkie, I will never totally forgive him for spending his first eight years in the NBA without ever learning a single post-up move. That weapon would make him immortal. He doesn't care. It's maddening.

d. In pressure moments, he comes and goes and when it goes, it's gone. He starts throwing hot-potato passes, stops driving to the basket, shies away from open 3s, stands in the corner, hides as much as someone that gifted can hide on a basketball court. It started happening in Game 3, then fully manifested itself in Game 4's stunning collapse, when he wouldn't even consider beating DeShawn Stevenson off the dribble. Afterward, one of my closest basketball friends someone who has been defending LeBron's ceiling for years finally threw up his hands and gave up. "It's over," he said. "Jordan never would have done THAT."

If you want to defend LeBron's Game 4, start here: That was his 99th game for Miami, each doubling as a playoff game for the other team. Because the Heat realized in training camp that their defense would determine their title hopes, LeBron reinvented himself as Pippen 2.0 on that end defending four positions, covering more of the court than anyone since Scottie, roaming much like an All-Pro safety would. He did it with a bull's-eye on his back, with every opposing crowd killing him, with a slew of new teammates and a depleted roster for much of the season. During Rounds 2 and 3, he did things that frankly, we've never seen on a basketball court before. His last two Chicago games rank among the greatest two-way games ever played: He did anything he wanted offensively and destroyed the league's MVP defensively. Including these first four Finals games, he's missed 49 minutes total in the past 13 games (including two overtimes), playing 587 of a possible 634 minutes at warp speed. Maybe he's just wearing down. From everything. That would be the defense.

The counter: Pre-baseball Jordan thrived with that same bull's-eye, logged those same minutes, and never wore down. He also made us feel like he would commit multiple murders not one murder, multiple murders just to win an important game. On Miami's team, only Wade makes you feel like that. It's true.

Ill put it another way. Jordan is/was the only basketball player that was more Alexander the Great or Genghis Khan than he was a basketball player. The guy was a conqueror more than anything. And for as much as anyone can point to his statistical greatness, everyone knows he almost unwaveringly delivered when it mattered most. Furthermore, had this skill like from the first Superman movie where Superman reversed the earths axis to turn back time so he could make things right, except in some ways Jordan was better because he had to get it right the first time. He was one of the few people who always seemed to be locked in a cosmic battle with the hand of fate and impose his own will again and again.

Another thing about Jordan is that, people often only remember the last iconic plays that were actually part of a series of amazing plays. Lets take "the Shot" as an example. With 6 seconds to go in game 5 against the Cavs, Jordan hits a beautiful mid range jumper. Clevleland then has the ball does their give and go off the inbounds to score and move ahead by 1 leaving 3 seconds on the clock. And then, of course, comes "the Shot". But what gets forgotten is that Cleveland dared him to hit two game winners in the last 10 seconds and he did it, with the second one being even more amazing than the first.

Another example is the game 6 against Utah. Everyone remembers the iconic shot of him hitting the decisive shot but what is often forgotten is the whole sequence that led up to it. With Pippen out of the game and Jordan sitting at 41 points, Jordan hits the layup, steals the ball from Malone like Malone was a piece of furniture and not some HOFer, and then, of course, hits the iconic shot. Jordan was like Harry Houdini and Alexander the Great more than he was like any basketball player.

Jordan might be the only guy in the league that other good players were scared to make eye contact with. And whats amazing is how he has affected the perception of the other players of his era because he so thoroughly sucked the excellence out of everything, he left nothing for anyone else. Hakeem Olajuwon might have been the best center in the history of the NBA. His career coincided with Jordans so any such acknowledgment is rare since Jordan overshadowed everyone. Same with Karl Malone.

Sorry but what I said above doesnt exist in the league today and is not likely to exist anytime soon.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-08-2011, 09:09 PM
His last two Chicago games rank among the greatest two-way games ever played

What a bunch of queer ass bull****.

Lebron was 19 for 45 in those two games.

Shooting 42 percent =/ great two-way game. Maybe good or solid but certainly not OMG OMNIPOTENT PERFORMANCE BROS!

epicSocialism4tw
06-08-2011, 09:11 PM
What a bunch of queer ass bull****.

Lebron was 19 for 45 in those two games.

Shooting 42 percent =/ great two-way game. Maybe good or solid but certainly not OMG OMNIPOTENT PERFORMANCE BROS!

LOL

Those clowns listen to too much of their hype. They probably aren't even aware of who the Heat are playing right now. Ha!

OrangeSe7en
06-08-2011, 09:15 PM
Olajuwon did.

And Dirk is doing it as we speak.

Olajuwon had help from Jordan.

DBroncos4life
06-08-2011, 11:44 PM
Olajuwon had help from Jordan.

Clyde Drexler was a pretty good player for them as well. He averaged 20.5 points per game in the playoffs. They had a young Sam Cassell and Robert Horry.

epicSocialism4tw
06-09-2011, 02:20 AM
Clyde Drexler was a pretty good player for them as well. He averaged 20.5 points per game in the playoffs. They had a young Sam Cassell and Robert Horry.

None of them was a star player. There wasn't a Ginobili, a Pippen, etc. on those Rockets teams.

Dirk's team is even weaker.

DBroncos4life
06-09-2011, 02:49 AM
None of them was a star player. There wasn't a Ginobili, a Pippen, etc. on those Rockets teams.

Dirk's team is even weaker.

Clide isn't a star? You do know he is in the hall of fame right??? He won a gold medal with the dream team!
1 NBA Champion (1995)
10 NBA All-Star (1986, 1988-1994, 1996, 1997)
1 All-NBA First Team Selection (1992)
2 All-NBA Second Team Selection (1988, 1991)
2 All-NBA Third Team Selection (1990, 1995)
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team


He has over 22,000 career points man.

epicSocialism4tw
06-09-2011, 02:51 AM
Clide isn't a star? You do know he is in the hall of fame right??? He won a gold medal with the dream team!
1 NBA Champion (1995)
10 NBA All-Star (1986, 1988-1994, 1996, 1997)
1 All-NBA First Team Selection (1992)
2 All-NBA Second Team Selection (1988, 1991)
2 All-NBA Third Team Selection (1990, 1995)
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team


He has over 22,000 career points man.

Clyde was a shadow of his former self with that Houston team. He was better than anything Dallas has now, but he certainly wasn't to the level of a star player.

DBroncos4life
06-09-2011, 02:58 AM
Clyde was a shadow of his former self with that Houston team. He was better than anything Dallas has now, but he certainly wasn't to the level of a star player.

He was the same age as Hakeem Olajuwon, 32. He avg over 20 points in the regular season and in the playoffs. He also played 3 more years with Houston and each year he averaged over 15 points per season. Houston traded for Clyde midway during that year and without him I don't think the would have won.

TonyR
06-09-2011, 06:47 AM
What a bunch of queer ass bull****.

Lebron was 19 for 45 in those two games.

Shooting 42 percent =/ great two-way game.

Of course someone who thinks the game is all and only about shooting and scoring wouldn't understand this. Note your telling comments above which focus on LeBron's shooting. Perhaps "among the greatest" is somewhat of a stretch but he did play an exceptional two way game. Clearly not something you'd notice, let alone appreciate.

TonyR
06-09-2011, 07:01 AM
Ill put it another way. Jordan is/was the only basketball player that was more Alexander the Great or Genghis Khan than he was a basketball player. The guy was a conqueror more than anything. And for as much as anyone can point to his statistical greatness, everyone knows he almost unwaveringly delivered when it mattered most.

Yup, MJ was a cold blooded killer. Another notable thing about MJ is that he came into the league with a mediocre jumper and he worked painstakingly to improve it. As Simmons mentions in the article I posted, if LeBron would work to develop some post moves he'd be a near unstoppable force. But he's made little effort to do so.

OrangeSe7en
06-09-2011, 07:17 AM
Yup, MJ was a cold blooded killer. Another notable thing about MJ is that he came into the league with a mediocre jumper and he worked painstakingly to improve it. As Simmons mentions in the article I posted, if LeBron would work to develop some post moves he'd be a near unstoppable force. But he's made little effort to do so.

Maybe, maybe not. One thing Jordan always had was touch on shots around the basket, whether it's spin or whatever, no one could convert in the lane like Jordan. Andother thing about LeBron that people get too swept up in is his straight line speed. If LeBron was at the NFL combine, he'd put up amazing numbers. He has raw talent that many people recognize as valuable because of other sports. But in basketball, the straight line speed isnt necessarily as useful as short area quickness and body control. I can already see your next LeBron apologist comment..."LeBron can do more than just run fast"...perhaps, but the point still remains that his talents that translates to other sports is what people get caught up in.

TonyR
06-09-2011, 07:39 AM
Maybe, maybe not.

So being bigger, stronger, and faster than everyone else on the court doesn't give you some advantages? I think you're overcomplicating this. If LeBron had near the drive that MJ had he'd be by far the best player in the league. He doesn't and he's not. He's often far too content to be a facilitator and take a back seat. He's not selfish enough. But he's a lot better than you seem to be willing to give him credit for, as evidenced by, among other things, the fact that he has been #1 in PER for the last four years.

And I'm not a "LeBron apologist". I'm not a LeBron fan or a Heat fan. I'm just a realist, I'm not a hater, and I have my eyes open.

FantomForce
06-09-2011, 10:27 AM
Listening to Cowherder today ESPN he made an interesting point. Lebron is comparable to Wilt, at the age of 14 they were both worshiped, when Jordan was getting cut from his team, while at the same age ESPN wanted to air Lebron's high school games. Jordan came into the league as another player not someone right out of high school Michael had to work for everything he got, that alone was what separated him and made him the greatest to ever play the game

Garcia Bronco
06-09-2011, 11:10 AM
Olajuwon had help from Jordan.

The Dream would created many matchup problems for the Bulls. He abused Shaq in his prime.

TDmvp
06-09-2011, 11:14 AM
Hmmmm Now I'm hearing that the reason Lebron sucked in game 4 is Rashard Lewis banged LeBron's girlfriend.


/ponder...

Boobs McGee
06-09-2011, 11:15 AM
Olajuwon did.

And Dirk is doing it as we speak.

Lol you clown. So now, Kobe did it with help? hahahahaha you sit here and talk ALL THIS **** about Pau Gasol, but when it helps your argument in trying to protect your ass when your boyfriend loses, all of a sudden he's this great "pippen" like player to Kobe.

GTFO.

According to your "analysis" of Pau, Kobe won TWO rings without a solid number 2 guy.

Suck on that you p.o.s. and please stop trying to set the stage for excuses when your team fails again. Dirk's playing with a future HOF'er, some former all stars, and the best bench in the league. But he's "doing it as we speak"?

Come on dude.

OrangeCrush2724
06-09-2011, 11:30 AM
Lol you clown. So now, Kobe did it with help? hahahahaha you sit here and talk ALL THIS **** about Pau Gasol, but when it helps your argument in trying to protect your ass when your boyfriend loses, all of a sudden he's this great "pippen" like player to Kobe.

GTFO.

According to your "analysis" of Pau, Kobe won TWO rings without a solid number 2 guy.

Suck on that you p.o.s. and please stop trying to set the stage for excuses when your team fails again. Dirk's playing with a future HOF'er, some former all stars, and the best bench in the league. But he's "doing it as we speak"?

Come on dude.

I love how Dallas goes from a team with the "most explosive offense" (according to epic) to a team that doesn't have anything around Dirk in the matter of 1 series.

Boobs McGee
06-09-2011, 11:47 AM
I love how Dallas goes from a team with the "most explosive offense" (according to epic) to a team that doesn't have anything around Dirk in the matter of 1 series.

it never ends with dramallama. Flip flopping, argumentative, ball slathering quack job. He'll bend anything to fit his argument, then strategically place little posts here and there that he can quote to cover his ass. I swear he's downplaying his team's role NOW so that it'll either look like A) Dirk did it all alone if they win or B ) when they lose, the excuse will be he didn't have enough help. And let's not forget, Dallas is "playing with house money right now". Ha! He just gets more comical as the finals progress. All you can hope for is another epic meltdown, really.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-09-2011, 11:52 AM
I believe he said most efficient offense, not explosive.

Great defense has a way of containing efficiency. The Mavs have had to work a lot harder on offense.

EmpireOrange
06-09-2011, 01:13 PM
You cant compare Bron to Jordan yet, but he's a better player than Kobe is. James has lead the league in PER the last FOUR seasons. He may not have that killer instinct Kobe does, but pretty much all his skills are elite...and the guy hasnt even really learned how to play with his back to the basket yet (though you are seeing it a tad in the finals). Kobe was obviously part of 5 championships (lebron is only 26, but who knows how many he might have), but just from a player standpoint? Bron's a better player than Kobe

No freaking way LeBrons better than Kobe. I don't have a dog in this fight. There is no player like Jordan and when his era ended so did my rooting interest. Its no comparison between MJ and James, obviously. However, to say James is better than Kobe is just dumb. He has won two titles back-to-back as the focal point of his time. A franchise built around him. Even if James gets his rings, he will not be the focal point of his team. He's the No. 2 on the Heat right now. I love how everybody forgets Jame's playoff performance last year too. He quit on his team. Freaking gave up! No way that guy ends up coming close to the likes of a Jordan, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Dr. J, Isah, Kobe, Kareem, or even a Duncan. I'll take Kobe over James today and in 5 years from now. James peaked two years ago and he know's that. That's why he couldn't handle being a franchise player to be built around in Cleveland. Its why he sought to play second fiddle to Wade. Kobe has been there, done that, and flourished. James will end up like Shaq. A ton of talent, and physical gifts, but no heart or character. To dismiss Kobe in a comparison to James is just as retarded as mentioning James in the same breath as Jordan.

EmpireOrange
06-09-2011, 01:33 PM
Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time. He's the greatest point guard ever. He's the greatest shooting guard ever. He's the greatest small forward ever. He'd probably rank in the top five among power forwards and centers. I don't think Michael Jordan (9-time first team defensive selection) could guard Michael Jordan.

epicSocialism4tw
06-09-2011, 03:00 PM
Lol you clown. So now, Kobe did it with help? hahahahaha you sit here and talk ALL THIS **** about Pau Gasol, but when it helps your argument in trying to protect your ass when your boyfriend loses, all of a sudden he's this great "pippen" like player to Kobe.

GTFO.

According to your "analysis" of Pau, Kobe won TWO rings without a solid number 2 guy.

Suck on that you p.o.s. and please stop trying to set the stage for excuses when your team fails again. Dirk's playing with a future HOF'er, some former all stars, and the best bench in the league. But he's "doing it as we speak"?

Come on dude.

The subleties are lost on you. You should actually think about things before blurting out these overemotional drama festivals.

Our conversation about Gasol was in the context of a comparison between he and Nowitzki. It should be 100% obvious to you, leaving absolutely no doubt, that I was correct. Gasol is not in Dirk's league. Simply not. Dirk is in Bryant's strata. Gasol is in Z-Bo's strata. When is the last time Dirk played with a player of Gasol's calibur? 2004. Much less Gasol + Odom + Bynum + Artest.

Dirk is playing with a 38-year old future hall of famer who had 0 points in the last game and hasn't averaged 10 ppg in years, and a bunch of former all stars who may or may not show up on any given day.

You have no perspective.

bombay
06-09-2011, 03:23 PM
Dislike Kobe .. for several reasons but he's a hell of lot better than LeBron, and it's because of his Jordanesque ego and drive. He's put his exceptional physical gifts to their hightest possible use. Jordan was the best.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-09-2011, 03:29 PM
What a coward.

Yesterday, Coach called a play in the huddle for LeBron. He wound up saying, 'No, I want D-Wade to have it right here.'" -Dwyane Wade, after game 4

epicSocialism4tw
06-09-2011, 03:35 PM
LeBarn's 2011 playoffs up to this point are being defined by his flopping and weak-minded play.

Article out of Chicago:


Suddenly, it seems, he’s being treated like just another player. In the Finals, James has been called for traveling four times (he was called for walking twice in five games against the Bulls), two offensive fouls and a double dribble. Early in Game 4, he was called for a lane violation on a missed free throw — by Davis, by the way — that allowed Jason Terry to make a free throw that loomed large at the end.

And James has been in rare foul trouble in this series. In Game 2, he was called for his third personal foul with 3:22 left in the second quarter and sat out the rest of the half.

Is it coincidence, karma or retribution? Referees review their performances just like players do. And they probably don’t like being embarrassed the way Davis was in Game 5 against the Bulls.

‘‘They don’t like that,’’ Mavericks center Tyson Chandler said. ‘‘If they see that, the next play he may get hit, and he won’t get the call.

‘‘They don’t like flopping. They like to referee and call the correct game. I’m not saying they would purposely miss anything. But you see one thing and you see he didn’t get hit — next time you see that, he’s going to think he didn’t get hit and he’s just flopping.’’


http://www.suntimes.com/sports/5853870-419/referee-wrath-against-lebron-james.html

Bronco Yoda
06-09-2011, 04:50 PM
MJ by a mile!

OrangeSe7en
06-09-2011, 05:41 PM
So being bigger, stronger, and faster than everyone else on the court doesn't give you some advantages? I think you're overcomplicating this. If LeBron had near the drive that MJ had he'd be by far the best player in the league. He doesn't and he's not. He's often far too content to be a facilitator and take a back seat. He's not selfish enough. But he's a lot better than you seem to be willing to give him credit for, as evidenced by, among other things, the fact that he has been #1 in PER for the last four years.

And I'm not a "LeBron apologist". I'm not a LeBron fan or a Heat fan. I'm just a realist, I'm not a hater, and I have my eyes open.

You're going in circles now. Like I said, just because LeBron would do awesome at the combine, that doesnt mean his talents can translate as effectively as Jordan's did. Jordan was quicker than LeBron and his deftness of touch around the basket is something that LeBron may never develop. Its kind of cute when people think Jordan was only great because he wanted it more.

OrangeSe7en
06-09-2011, 05:45 PM
Listening to Cowherder today ESPN he made an interesting point. Lebron is comparable to Wilt, at the age of 14 they were both worshiped, when Jordan was getting cut from his team, while at the same age ESPN wanted to air Lebron's high school games.

This part is most definitely true.

Jordan came into the league as another player not someone right out of high school Michael had to work for everything he got, that alone was what separated him and made him the greatest to ever play the game

This part is not really true. When Jordan entered the league, the first pair of Air Jordans were out by christmas of his rookie year. Its not like Nike and the marketing didn't get behind him early on. Of course, he had to live up to it, which he more than did.

gunns
06-09-2011, 08:57 PM
I'm a Celtics fan Gunns... Who hated Jordan. But Russell wasn't even the best player of his era , he was just the best leader and was surrounded with HOF's .

Plus there was only 8! teams then.... You can't really compare that era to now fairly.


And the above post you posted only had 1 IF in it for the record. That being IF Jordan doesn't take 2 years off he had 8 titles... If you see more IFS then that please point them out...

LOL I've got to ask, who was better? I don't believe I'm every talked with anyone who knows anything about that era, even those who don't think Russell is the greatest of all time, that think Russell wasn't the best of his era. He was a defensive menace.

As far as the "ifs" I was referring to two things, the 5 Championships Russell out did Jordan on and the comment "8 straight". He didn't have 6 straight. Jordan was the best of his era, Russell the greatest of his and having seen them both, I think Russell was the greatest.

TDmvp
06-09-2011, 09:54 PM
LOL I've got to ask, who was better? I don't believe I'm every talked with anyone who knows anything about that era, even those who don't think Russell is the greatest of all time, that think Russell wasn't the best of his era. He was a defensive menace.

As far as the "ifs" I was referring to two things, the 5 Championships Russell out did Jordan on and the comment "8 straight". He didn't have 6 straight. Jordan was the best of his era, Russell the greatest of his and having seen them both, I think Russell was the greatest.


:poke::poke::poke:
You're old Hilarious!Hilarious!Hilarious!
/ducks...


You can argue Russell is the greatest ever and not be wrong. He is totally in that argument. My fav team is the Celtics so if that's what people want to think that's totally cool with me... But in these topics I always say number one is a opinion and there always a group of guys if you argue for you aint wrong cause it's splitting hairs... Russell is totally in that group.

Lebron ... Not yet / not so much.

OrangeSe7en
06-09-2011, 09:58 PM
:poke::poke::poke:
You're old Hilarious!Hilarious!Hilarious!
/ducks...


You can argue Russell is the greatest ever and not be wrong. He is totally in that argument. My fav team is the Celtics so if that's what people want to think that's totally cool with me... But in these topics I always say number one is a opinion and there always a group of guys if you argue for you aint wrong cause it's splitting hairs... Russell is totally in that group.

Lebron ... Not yet / not so much.

No he's not. He played an entire career a foot from the basket against 6'5 white guys and only shot 45% from the field.

gunns
06-09-2011, 09:59 PM
:poke::poke::poke:
You're old Hilarious!Hilarious!Hilarious!
/ducks...


You can argue Russell is the greatest ever and not be wrong. He is totally in that argument. My fav team is the Celtics so if that's what people want to think that's totally cool with me... But in these topics I always say number one is a opinion and there always a group of guys if you argue for you aint wrong cause it's splitting hairs... Russell is totally in that group.

Lebron ... Not yet / not so much.

Yeah, and you're a young dumb ass. /Doesn't duck, bring it! :kiss:

No I wasn't arguing for Lebron. I was just doing a Russell/Jordan thing. You are right is each own opinion....but in this situation I am right. ;D

TDmvp
06-09-2011, 10:03 PM
Yeah, and you're a young dumb ass. /Doesn't duck, bring it! :kiss:

No I wasn't arguing for Lebron. I was just doing a Russell/Jordan thing. You are right is each own opinion....but in this situation I am right. ;D

Hilarious!Hilarious!Hilarious! /hug you killin me ...

Never said you was fight for bron bron... I was reffering back to the OT by saying you was right and could argue Russell is the greatest and not be a moron and those saying Lebron is already in that class was stupid.

robbieopperude
06-10-2011, 12:28 PM
I would like to chime in and argue a few points on Lebron and Bill Russel

Lebron:
Again there is no comparison to Michael Jordan and I really don't see the Heat winning 5 titles in the next 8 years to help get him close to the conversation anyway. You know what is going to happen to Lebron when he starts to lose his athleticisim at age 32? He is going to turn into a 3rd option on most teams. He is going to be of Jeff Green ability. That is why he doesn't look amazing in playoff games. Against good teams you don't get the 8 to 12 points of junk scoring that Lebron used to get with his athleticism. Thus he will rarely hang up a 40 spot on playoff teams. He doesn't have the skill set to do it without his junk points. (Note: Being part of the "Big 3" also severely limits it because he doesn't get as many shots either.)

Lebron better hope the Heat win a couple in the next few years because they only have about a 5 year window to be a dominant playoff team. I also think he may have started a trend and you are going to see another "All Star" type player end up in Chicago in the next two years. Chicago is really going to threaten the Heat for the next 5 years. Dwight Howard is also going to either get Chris Paul to Orlando or leave to play somewhere else that is ready to compete. Maybe Dallas or the Lakers or the Thunder. I think there will be some big shakeups in the NBA in the next 2 years.

Bill Russel:
Very hard to say he is better than Michael Jordan when he played in a completely different era of basketball with less competition, teams, and awareness of basketball. I will again argue that Russel's 11 championships mean alot less than Michael's 6. The league was just so different back then. I will also say that I think Russel was a better matchup against Wilt then Wilt was against Russel. He knew how to handle the big guy. I like to think about how teams would have done if they traded the two players who are in comparison. I think if Wilt is on Boston he has the 11 championships instead of Russel.

BTW: If you trade Lebron for Michael I don't think the Bulls have 6 rings even with Rodman, Horace Grant, Kukoc, Pippen and all the other guys they had on the teams. I just don't think Lebron would be able to carry the team. Heck in the final minutes of games you would be either setting up clear out plays for Lebron to drive and dish or running through Pippen on the Elbow. I don't really like either of those ideas in the final two minutes of games.

TonyR
06-10-2011, 12:48 PM
You know what is going to happen to Lebron when he starts to lose his athleticisim at age 32? He is going to turn into a 3rd option on most teams.

Why is he going to "lose his athleticism" at 32? And when he does, how is this any different than most players?

I swear the hate for LeBron now is much worse than the hype that got us to this point to begin with. LeBron is a creation of the media. He was crowned the next great thing when he was still a kid. As is almost always the case he hasn't met expectations. And now because of those expectations, and the way he handled his exit from Cleveland, he's hated and ridiculed.

LeBron is never going to be Michael Jordan or anything close. But he's better than some of you seem to think. The guy has been #1 in PER for the last four years. My major problem with him is that he really hasn't gotten much better. He doesn't appear to have the drive and desire to improve his game. It's like he's content to just coast along and get by on his natural gifts but doesn't do what it takes to take it to the next level. But I don't know that he deserves to be hated to the level he is just because he's not meeting the expectations that the media foisted upon us.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-10-2011, 12:50 PM
LeBron is a creation of the media.

The dumbass has "CHOSEN 1" tattooed on his back as huge as it can be.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-10-2011, 12:58 PM
Could watch this all day.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/kU8MEoMbnwU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

TonyR
06-10-2011, 01:03 PM
The dumbass has "CHOSEN 1" tattooed on his back as huge as it can be.

Yup, clearly he bought into the hype like everybody else. I don't like the guy either, for the record. But I have no reason to hate him, either. And when you spend that much time and effort hating someone you're actually complimenting them in a perverse sort of way. You wouldn't bother to hate him so much if you didn't have at least a little reason to fear him. You know what he's capable of doing if he ever pulls his head out of his backside and decides to do it.

24champ
06-10-2011, 01:45 PM
Glen Rice chimes in...

"I thought Scottie was drinking when he said that," Rice said with a hearty laugh. "There's no way. Michael Jordan's the best player ever, come on. LeBron's a great player, I'm not trying to take anything from him. But you talk about someone who had the will to not only take over a game, but to bring his teammates up to another level? Michael Jordan, hand's down. It's not even close. And if there is someone close, it's not LeBron, it would be Kobe Bryant.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Taking-the-gloves-off-and-catching-up-with-ex-L?urn=nba-wp4489

epicSocialism4tw
06-10-2011, 01:50 PM
Glen Rice chimes in...

"I thought Scottie was drinking when he said that," Rice said with a hearty laugh. "There's no way. Michael Jordan's the best player ever, come on. LeBron's a great player, I'm not trying to take anything from him. But you talk about someone who had the will to not only take over a game, but to bring his teammates up to another level? Michael Jordan, hand's down. It's not even close. And if there is someone close, it's not LeBron, it would be Kobe Bryant.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Taking-the-gloves-off-and-catching-up-with-ex-L?urn=nba-wp4489

Kobe Bryant is the closest thing, yes, but he's not quite in Jordan's league. He's like a Jordan replica thats pretty close to authentic but just isn't quite the real thing.

bombay
06-10-2011, 01:55 PM
Glen Rice is right. Man, he was one of the greatest college players ever. Didn't quite translate to the pros, although he was good.

Lestat
06-10-2011, 04:35 PM
Bill Russell,Jerry West,Michael Jordan,George Mikan all have claim to being the best ever.
with so many different eras in basketball it just a matter of what stylistically you prefer.

i think Jordan was the best ever myself, dude dominated like no other and carried the NBA into what it is today.

epicSocialism4tw
06-10-2011, 04:49 PM
Bill Russell,Jerry West,Michael Jordan,George Mikan all have claim to being the best ever.
with so many different eras in basketball it just a matter of what stylistically you prefer.

i think Jordan was the best ever myself, dude dominated like no other and carried the NBA into what it is today.

Yeah, I think that Jordan gets the edge because the era that he played in featured many of the best players of all time playing during an era when people understood the value of keeping themselves in top athletic shape and coaching had become an art form. Not only did Jordan transcend his peers significantly over that span of time, but he transcended the sport, carrying it to its height of popularity that people like Bryant and James benefit financially from today. Jordan was an enzyme. He catalyzed the chemical reaction.

UberBroncoMan
06-10-2011, 09:12 PM
Probably said by now, but Pippen defended himself by saying he meant that LeBron could reach that level and surpass it, but isn't there yet.

Boobs McGee
06-10-2011, 11:09 PM
The subleties are lost on you. You should actually think about things before blurting out these overemotional drama festivals.

Our conversation about Gasol was in the context of a comparison between he and Nowitzki. It should be 100% obvious to you, leaving absolutely no doubt, that I was correct. Gasol is not in Dirk's league. Simply not. Dirk is in Bryant's strata. Gasol is in Z-Bo's strata. When is the last time Dirk played with a player of Gasol's calibur? 2004. Much less Gasol + Odom + Bynum + Artest.

Dirk is playing with a 38-year old future hall of famer who had 0 points in the last game and hasn't averaged 10 ppg in years, and a bunch of former all stars who may or may not show up on any given day.

You have no perspective.

Oh drama drama drama.

Let me just lay out how ****ing stupid you sound sometimes.

First off, our conversation had NOTHING TO DO WITH A COMPARISON TO NOWITSKI, and everything to do with you spouting off about gasol being soft, and a choker.

Let me refresh your memory.


The Lakers wont necessarily need it.

They have the bigs to wear teams down.

In reality they're a game behind Dallas.

They'll have to remain even with Dallas and then beat them in LA in a couple weeks to get a firm hold on the #2 seed.

Yesterdays game was like a playoff game. The Lakers have so many weapons (Bynum was killer) and can beat you in so many different ways. There's simply not another team with the type of beef they have in the front court. Bynum and Artest are both big and strong and can push players around. Gasol isnt necessarily tough or strong, but he doesnt have to be...he's the finess player.

If the Lakers had to depend more on Gasol, I'd be worried for them. He tends to choke in late game situations. But they have so many weapons its ridiculous.

The Mavs cant match up with that. Dirk's really the only dominant player that the Mavs have. The Mavs have alot of good players, but not on the Lakers' level. Bynum is arguably the top C in the league next to Howard...if he gets the ball in the post you can forget it. Gasol is a solid #2 scorer, and they dont even need to depend on him for clutch scoring because they have two great clutch players in Bryant and Fisher.

The Lakers are the team to beat. It wont matter what their seed is.

See how it started there? Nothing to do with me comparing him to dirk.

When I asked where you were getting the idea that he was a choker/soft player, you replied

Gasol has been that type of player since his Memphis days. He's just not a guy that you can count on in crunch time.

Gasol had an opportunity to put the game away yesterday and he missed a free throw. He went without making a field goal in the final 6:30, shot 50% on his free throws during that period, and was -4 in +/-.

Like I said, Gasol is a good player that doesnt have to be great because he has so many other players to take the pressure off of him.


Now, I've bolded the part we're discussing AT THE MOMENT. You went ahead and responded to a post that included the phrase "no one does it by themselves, Mj had pippen, magic had kareem, kobe had pau, by saying DIRK IS DOING IT NOW by himself. By acknowledging that kobe won with with pau (whom you've CLEARLY stated is a "good" player (not great) that isn't clutch, is soft, not tough, etc etc), you're bending arguments to fit your constantly changing agenda. And if you're telling me an injured bynum, artest in his first year in a new system, and an average lamar coupled with an OLD fisher isn't comparable to what Dirk has now, then you're just lying to yourself.

It's pretty simple.

Try to keep up.

You contradict yourself and win arguments in your head, bro.

:thumbs:

bombay
06-10-2011, 11:19 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html


Wilt was easily the most dominant player in history. He averaged 50.4 points and 26 boards for an entire season. Most dominant, not winningest or any other standard. People who think that he didn't play against other 7'ers are completely clueless. Jordan was the best, and Kobe's giving him a run. Jordans defense was better, and Kobe can't catch him there. Kobe's athleticism is slightly less, but his competitiveness and killer instinct are right there with Mike.

robbieopperude
06-11-2011, 06:23 AM
Why is he going to "lose his athleticism" at 32? And when he does, how is this any different than most players?

I swear the hate for LeBron now is much worse than the hype that got us to this point to begin with. LeBron is a creation of the media. He was crowned the next great thing when he was still a kid. As is almost always the case he hasn't met expectations. And now because of those expectations, and the way he handled his exit from Cleveland, he's hated and ridiculed.

LeBron is never going to be Michael Jordan or anything close. But he's better than some of you seem to think. The guy has been #1 in PER for the last four years. My major problem with him is that he really hasn't gotten much better. He doesn't appear to have the drive and desire to improve his game. It's like he's content to just coast along and get by on his natural gifts but doesn't do what it takes to take it to the next level. But I don't know that he deserves to be hated to the level he is just because he's not meeting the expectations that the media foisted upon us.

Like I said. When he starts to lose his athleticism he isn't going to get all his junk baskets on breakaway dunks or cutting layups. His skill set currently doesn't include any go to moves or midrange jumper game like Jordan had and I think he isn't going to be able to carry a team like Jordan did when he was in his early 30's. I think you are going to see Lebron become a 3rd option or a passing type player on set plays in the half court game.

You can argue Lebron's per all day if you want. The man is a walking triple double waiting to happen. I have no problem with that. Bottom line is that he is never going to be anywhere close to Jordan. Like I have said before he is very much comparable to Scottie Pippen in my eye's. Yes, he is better but not by that much.

OrangeSe7en
06-11-2011, 07:06 AM
Why is he going to "lose his athleticism" at 32? And when he does, how is this any different than most players?
I swear the hate for LeBron now is much worse than the hype that got us to this point to begin with. LeBron is a creation of the media. He was crowned the next great thing when he was still a kid. As is almost always the case he hasn't met expectations. And now because of those expectations, and the way he handled his exit from Cleveland, he's hated and ridiculed.

LeBron is never going to be Michael Jordan or anything close. But he's better than some of you seem to think. The guy has been #1 in PER for the last four years. My major problem with him is that he really hasn't gotten much better. He doesn't appear to have the drive and desire to improve his game. It's like he's content to just coast along and get by on his natural gifts but doesn't do what it takes to take it to the next level. But I don't know that he deserves to be hated to the level he is just because he's not meeting the expectations that the media foisted upon us.

Its been pointed out many times that the players who go directly from high school to pros wear down around the age of 30. And a lot of this observation is based on HSers who didnt log as many minutes early on in their pro careers. LeBron has logged a lot of minutes from the minute he entered the league.

Time will tell though. Personally, if/when that happens, I think LeBron will still be relevant. He still can rebound and distribute the ball. He might lose some or a lot of explosiveness when running the court or going to the basket. If/when that day comes where LeBron becomes more of a distributor, I could almost see him being perceived as a better player as he will have a more clearly defined role, especially if he gets on a team with a scorer.

OrangeSe7en
06-11-2011, 07:16 AM
Like I said. When he starts to lose his athleticism he isn't going to get all his junk baskets on breakaway dunks or cutting layups. His skill set currently doesn't include any go to moves or midrange jumper game like Jordan had and I think he isn't going to be able to carry a team like Jordan did when he was in his early 30's. I think you are going to see Lebron become a 3rd option or a passing type player on set plays in the half court game.

You can argue Lebron's per all day if you want. The man is a walking triple double waiting to happen. I have no problem with that. Bottom line is that he is never going to be anywhere close to Jordan. Like I have said before he is very much comparable to Scottie Pippen in my eye's. Yes, he is better but not by that much.

And it depends on what era you're talking about. In this current era where defenders arent able to be as aggressive, and there is less of a emphasis on defense, it's in Jame's favor. If you put both James and Pippen in the 90s era game, the gap really starts to narrow with Pippen possibly even being a little better because of defense ruling the day during that era.

What happens is that the perception of a player by the public is too wrapped around scoring. People should really remember what happened in 91 when the Bulls were playing the Lakers and Pippen was put on Magic. I think that was the best Ive seen anyone ever defend Magic.

elsid13
06-11-2011, 08:02 AM
No he's not. He played an entire career a foot from the basket against 6'5 white guys and only shot 45% from the field.

Wilt Chamberlain was 6'5 white guy???

Russell was and is one of the elite players of all time in NBA.

OrangeSe7en
06-11-2011, 11:58 AM
Wilt Chamberlain was 6'5 white guy???

Russell was and is one of the elite players of all time in NBA.

I didnt think I really needed to say that I was referring to the average NBA player of that time. But regarding Wilt, Wilt had better numbers than Russell when they played each other.

robbieopperude
06-11-2011, 04:00 PM
Its been pointed out many times that the players who go directly from high school to pros wear down around the age of 30. And a lot of this observation is based on HSers who didnt log as many minutes early on in their pro careers. LeBron has logged a lot of minutes from the minute he entered the league.

Time will tell though. Personally, if/when that happens, I think LeBron will still be relevant. He still can rebound and distribute the ball. He might lose some or a lot of explosiveness when running the court or going to the basket. If/when that day comes where LeBron becomes more of a distributor, I could almost see him being perceived as a better player as he will have a more clearly defined role, especially if he gets on a team with a scorer.

I can roll with that. I think the comparisons will start flowing more towards a Magic Johnson type career then. A big man who can handle the basketball and make his teammates better around him by creating shots for them. I think he ends up being a 22 pts 7 rebs 7 assists type guy when he is in his 30's. Not anything close to a Michael Jordan.

For the record. I also think he will go down as one of the top 20 NBA players of all time. Top 10 consideration if he is able to get 3 to 5 championships.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-11-2011, 04:01 PM
Magic was money in the 4th.

Lebron is not.

Please don't compare him to any great players ever again.

Hamrob
06-11-2011, 08:51 PM
Michael Jordon...............made/saved the NBA.

I don't know what planet these idiots are from. John Elway....made the rocky mountains/Denver!

Michael Jordon is basketball. Nobody, nobody ever played like MJ. Russell was a totally different player. Great yes, talented yes.....out of this world like MJ...hell no!

Michael Jordon did **** that noone thought possible on a basketball court. Jordon won in Chicago. What did Lebraun do in Cleveland?

Please, give us all a rest. MJ...is and always has been the best. And, James nor anyone around right now, can wear his jock!!!

robbieopperude
06-13-2011, 09:43 AM
Magic was money in the 4th.

Lebron is not.

Please don't compare him to any great players ever again.


Averaging 18 ppg in the finals was James Worthy like. I am going to start a thread asking if Lebron is as great of a player as James Worthy.

Garcia Bronco
06-13-2011, 09:47 AM
Guess who was standing with the Championship last night?

Not Lebron...no Kobe....no Jordon....


It was Bill Russell.

Rausch 2.0
06-13-2011, 09:51 AM
Guess who was standing with the Championship last night?

Not Lebron...no Kobe....no Jordon....


It was Bill Russell.

For 1,000 reasons also better than Lebron...

24champ
06-13-2011, 10:05 AM
Averaging 18 ppg in the finals was James Worthy like. I am going to start a thread asking if Lebron is as great of a player as James Worthy.

Big Game James was a better player in the playoffs, statistically.

bronco militia
06-13-2011, 10:08 AM
did anyone hate James Worthy?

robbieopperude
06-14-2011, 07:58 AM
did anyone hate James Worthy?

I don't think so. I'm not a big Lakers fan but I do recall he was a pretty good baller for his generation. He may have been honored as one of the 50 greatest also. I can't remember.

Garcia Bronco
06-14-2011, 08:38 AM
It's Tuesday and Bill Russell is still the best ever.

hookemhess
06-14-2011, 09:36 AM
It's Tuesday and Bill Russell is still the best ever.

http://h7.abload.de/img/0073_1nbe.gif

Jason in LA
06-14-2011, 09:45 AM
Michael Jordon...............made/saved the NBA.



No, that would be Magic and Bird. Before them the NBA Finals was on tape delay. 80s basketball was great, and a lot of it had to do with the Magic/Bird rivalry. They put the NBA on the map.

Jordan's greatness was in the 90s, which I'd say was a horrible decade for basketball. Expansion watered the league down a lot, and most teams couldn't score 100 points per game. The league became really boring. Jordan was the only real draw at the time. It wasn't very interesting watching him roll over a bad league.

Jason in LA
06-14-2011, 10:06 AM
I don't think so. I'm not a big Lakers fan but I do recall he was a pretty good baller for his generation. He may have been honored as one of the 50 greatest also. I can't remember.

Worthy was a great player. Obviously not on the level of Magic, Bird, Jordan, Shaq, Russell, Chamberlain, Kobe, Abdul Jabar, or a hand full of others.

After that group you have Malone, Barkley, Stockton, Nash, Dirk, Elgin Baylor, Patrick Ewing, Isiah Thomas, and a few others.

I'd put Worthy right behind that group. He's a top 50 player of all time, and he was the NBA Finals MVP in '88.

He played on some stacked Lakers teams, so nobody was going to average 30 points per game.

2KBack
06-14-2011, 10:16 AM
No, that would be Magic and Bird. Before them the NBA Finals was on tape delay. 80s basketball was great, and a lot of it had to do with the Magic/Bird rivalry. They put the NBA on the map.

Jordan's greatness was in the 90s, which I'd say was a horrible decade for basketball. Expansion watered the league down a lot, and most teams couldn't score 100 points per game. The league became really boring. Jordan was the only real draw at the time. It wasn't very interesting watching him roll over a bad league.

I agree with all of this.

Also, while this isn't Jordan's fault, he really influenced a huge generation of 1 on 1 players (vs. great team players like Magic or Bird)

FantomForce
06-14-2011, 10:16 AM
http://h7.abload.de/img/0073_1nbe.gif

Done and done enough said

Garcia Bronco
06-14-2011, 10:20 AM
Done and done enough said

11 NBA championships and one of those as a player and the coach. No one can beat that. Not even Michael Jordon. Least we forget to that Jordon has to leave the NBA because oif his gambling in Vegas that ultimately got his father killed.

FantomForce
06-14-2011, 10:54 AM
Garcia correct me if I'm wrong but didn't his father get killed then he went played baseball and then came back and still won 3 championships?

RhymesayersDU
06-14-2011, 11:06 AM
Garcia correct me if I'm wrong but didn't his father get killed then he went played baseball and then came back and still won 3 championships?

Garcia is referencing a somewhat widely held belief/conspiracy theory that the NBA had to suspend Jordan for his gambling, but that it'd be too damaging for the league, so they made him go play baseball.

Edit: I've certainly heard the theory that Jordan's baseball hiatus was actually a suspension. What I haven't heard is that Jordan's gambling was connected to his father's murder. That's a new one to me.

FantomForce
06-14-2011, 11:22 AM
Please and Bush was the reason 911 went down. Chase that rabbit Garcia, chase it!

Jason in LA
06-14-2011, 11:26 AM
Garcia is referencing a somewhat widely held belief/conspiracy theory that the NBA had to suspend Jordan for his gambling, but that it'd be too damaging for the league, so they made him go play baseball.

Edit: I've certainly heard the theory that Jordan's baseball hiatus was actually a suspension. What I haven't heard is that Jordan's gambling was connected to his father's murder. That's a new one to me.

There is so much speculation there that I personally wouldn't even repeat it. It's like people just filled in the blanks.

Beantown Bronco
06-14-2011, 11:31 AM
Edit: I've certainly heard the theory that Jordan's baseball hiatus was actually a suspension. What I haven't heard is that Jordan's gambling was connected to his father's murder. That's a new one to me.

Certainly not news to me. At the time, it was pretty common knowledge and all but accepted as fact everywhere I turned (local media, people on the street, friends, etc.).

RhymesayersDU
06-14-2011, 11:35 AM
There is so much speculation there that I personally wouldn't even repeat it. It's like people just filled in the blanks.

Yeah, this one is weird because even some legitimate people in the basketball world (media, insiders, etc) believe it, which gives it even more "legitimacy." It isn't like some other conspiracy theories held by nutjob fans.

RhymesayersDU
06-14-2011, 11:36 AM
Certainly not news to me. At the time, it was pretty common knowledge and all but accepted as fact everywhere I turned (local media, people on the street, friends, etc.).

I'll need to go back and read up on it, not something I remembered about that whole deal. But it was a while ago, and I was like 15 or so when it happened I think.

epicSocialism4tw
06-14-2011, 11:45 AM
No, that would be Magic and Bird. Before them the NBA Finals was on tape delay. 80s basketball was great, and a lot of it had to do with the Magic/Bird rivalry. They put the NBA on the map.

No argument from me there. This is also why those guys are romanticized probably a little more than they should be.

Jordan's greatness was in the 90s, which I'd say was a horrible decade for basketball. Expansion watered the league down a lot, and most teams couldn't score 100 points per game. The league became really boring. Jordan was the only real draw at the time. It wasn't very interesting watching him roll over a bad league.

The league expanded, yes, but so did the player pool. It wasn't because play was bad that the teams couldn't score points, its because of Isaiah Thomas' dadgum muck-ball Pistons and the skid mark that they left in the Eastern Conference. The late 80's and early-to-mid 90's were full of that crap.

But as for great players, the 90's had them in spades. Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Jordan, Pippen, Olajuwon, Drexler, Shaq, Kidd, Payton, David Robinson, Reggie Miller, Rodman, Mutombo, Ewing, Mourning, etc. And who can forget "Grandma-ma"? ;D

BroncoInferno
06-14-2011, 12:24 PM
It's Tuesday and Bill Russell is still the best ever.

Russell was not nearly good enough of an offensive player to be considered the best ever. Amazing defender and rebounder, but 15.1 points and a 44% field goal percentage (a paltry number for a big man, especially in that era) drops him down the list.

Garcia Bronco
06-14-2011, 12:30 PM
Garcia correct me if I'm wrong but didn't his father get killed then he went played baseball and then came back and still won 3 championships?

No. His father was killed and then he "retired". It is rumored that he was being blackmailed by people that were going to expose him for cheating on his wife and gambling. When he refused to throw a finals...they put the screws to him.

Garcia Bronco
06-14-2011, 12:31 PM
Russell was not nearly good enough of an offensive player to be considered the best ever. Amazing defender and rebounder, but 15.1 points and a 44% field goal percentage (a paltry number for a big man, especially in that era) drops him down the list.

And the leader of 11 NBA CHAMPIONSHIPS and one as a player and the coach playing the best talent in the world at the time. Don't knock it. I enjoyed watching Jordon too, but the best ever he is not.

OrangeSe7en
06-14-2011, 05:58 PM
And the leader of 11 NBA CHAMPIONSHIPS and one as a player and the coach playing the best talent in the world at the time. Don't knock it. I enjoyed watching Jordon too, but the best ever he is not.

You must have missed watching Russell play offense then because he stunk on offense.

I dont know why you insist on embarrassing yourself defending a center who was a 44% shooter.

OrangeSe7en
06-14-2011, 06:01 PM
No argument from me there. This is also why those guys are romanticized probably a little more than they should be.



The league expanded, yes, but so did the player pool. It wasn't because play was bad that the teams couldn't score points, its because of Isaiah Thomas' dadgum muck-ball Pistons and the skid mark that they left in the Eastern Conference. The late 80's and early-to-mid 90's were full of that crap.

But as for great players, the 90's had them in spades. Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Jordan, Pippen, Olajuwon, Drexler, Shaq, Kidd, Payton, David Robinson, Reggie Miller, Rodman, Mutombo, Ewing, Mourning, etc. And who can forget "Grandma-ma"? ;D

This. Its amazing how people fail to comprehend why it was harder to score then. Whats even more amazing is when people point out "talent was diluted...there were more teams" without giving consideration to the talent pool. You get this from a lot of crusty old men who defend the Babe Ruth era when it was pre-integration and not many HSs had baseball programs.

TonyR
06-14-2011, 08:50 PM
Some interesting comments from Steve Kerr on the subject...

Scottie Pippen had it all wrong when he recently compared LeBron James with Michael Jordan, said one former Chicago Bulls teammate.

"The irony to me is that LeBron is not Michael. LeBron is actually Scottie," former Bull and current television analyst Steve Kerr said Monday on "The Waddle & Silvy Show" on ESPN 1000. "He's so similar to Scottie in that defensively he was just a monster, could guard anybody, really more of a point forward than scoring guard. Scottie always loved to distribute the ball. That's really where LeBron's preference is.

"Phil Jackson used to call Scottie a 'sometimes shooter.' Sometimes they would go in, sometimes they wouldn't. That's how it is with LeBron. He's a great talent and a great player but you can see his flaws as a basketball player. He doesn't have an offensive game that he can rely on: no low-post game, no mid-range jump shot so when the game really gets tough he has a hard time finding easy baskets and getting himself going. That's what Michael did in his sleep so that's why the comparison is wrong."

After James' Heat beat the Bulls in the Eastern Conference finals, Pippen told ESPN Radio's "Mike & Mike in the Morning" that while he believes Jordan is the greatest scorer in NBA history, James "may be the greatest player to ever play the game."

After thriving against the Bulls, James struggled -- especially in the fourth quarter -- in the NBA Finals against the Dallas Mavericks, who won three straight games against the Heat to win the title on Sunday.

James averaged 26.7 points per game in the regular season, but just 17.8 in the Finals, the largest discrepancy in history, according to the Elias Sports Bureau.

And after starring in the closing role against the Bulls, James scored just 18 points combined in the fourth quarter during the Finals, fueling talk about whether he can really be considered a player on the level of Jordan.

"Michael had three years at North Carolina with Dean Smith. That makes a big difference," Kerr said. "I think he was brought up at a time when there was probably better development at a young age in terms of coaching. I think LeBron is a product of the AAU system where you rely on your athleticism, you go and play 100 games a year but maybe you don't focus on your weaknesses and what you need to lock in on.

"As a result, fundamentally and technically LeBron has some flaws. He has to address those. If I were him I would spend all summer down on the low block shooting jump hooks and turnaround jump shots -- the entire summer."

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=6656859

OrangeSe7en
06-14-2011, 09:15 PM
Every thing Kerr said was spot on, especially the last part about AAU. Ive heard people say that James was further along when he was 21 and things like this, than Jordan. The truth is, Jordan subjugated his own game to be a part of the UNC program. The amazing thing about it, is that he is in no way bitter. There is an old joke that Dean Smith is the only one to ever hold Jordan to under 20 points a game. No one really knew where Jordans game was at UNC. Now coaches are all undermined by the AAU system. And along those lines, Jordan grew up having a father around.

BroncoInferno
06-15-2011, 10:44 AM
And the leader of 11 NBA CHAMPIONSHIPS and one as a player and the coach playing the best talent in the world at the time. Don't knock it. I enjoyed watching Jordon too, but the best ever he is not.

Russell played with 6 future Hall of Famers. To say that Russell was responsible for those championships in the same way that Jordan was for the Bulls championships is, frankly, stupid. You're probably the only person on the planet who would make that argument.

bronco militia
06-15-2011, 10:48 AM
http://www.drewlitton.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/disappearingactcolor.gif

Garcia Bronco
06-15-2011, 10:56 AM
Russell played with 6 future Hall of Famers. To say that Russell was responsible for those championships in the same way that Jordan was for the Bulls championships is, frankly, stupid. You're probably the only person on the planet who would make that argument.

He was still the leader of that team and based on that leadership it allowed those guys to become HOFers by winning 11 NBA Championships. He's the best.

The point is....alll you guy lamenting Lebron for Jordon forget that others would lament Jordon for Magic, or Russell, or Bird, or Wilt.

FantomForce
06-15-2011, 11:00 AM
http://www.drewlitton.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/disappearingactcolor.gif

+100000000000

TDmvp
06-15-2011, 05:04 PM
He was still the leader of that team and based on that leadership it allowed those guys to become HOFers by winning 11 NBA Championships. He's the best.

The point is....alll you guy lamenting Lebron for Jordon forget that others would lament Jordon for Magic, or Russell, or Bird, or Wilt.



As a Celtics fan I say stop it ... Bill will even say he wasn't the greatest of all time. He's in the conversation and like I told Gunns you can argue for Russell being the best ever and it's ok and it isn't stupid sounding , but most experts disagree.

I always just call him the best leader ever who played whatever game needed to help his team win. He would sacrifice stats for wins.

But even Bill will tell you he wasn't the greatest ever.

And trying to compare him to Jordan doesn't work at all. The eras and the rules and the style of the game now compared to then just doesn't compare well.

epicSocialism4tw
09-03-2011, 01:21 AM
An all-time great thread? Yes.

cousinal11
09-03-2011, 07:19 AM
May not be the best dunk ever, but damn if it won't pretty, and that's Kenny "the Jet" Smith high fiving him afterwards. He could dunk too!

<iframe width="560" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/mxpk5Devjxw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

TD4HOF
09-03-2011, 07:58 AM
How did I miss this? I hated Jordan so, so, so, so much during his apex (my teenage years). It's funny to think oh I missed Mantle, Jim Brown, and players of that ilk while I've been treated to MJ, Tiger pre-family dinner, Gretzsky and Mario, even a young Carl Lewis when I was still wearing PJs.

A pointless discussion, complete nonsense. MJ would rip LBJs heart out in the 4th and make him cry.

TD4HOF
09-03-2011, 08:00 AM
He was still the leader of that team and based on that leadership it allowed those guys to become HOFers by winning 11 NBA Championships. He's the best.

The point is....alll you guy lamenting Lebron for Jordon forget that others would lament Jordon for Magic, or Russell, or Bird, or Wilt.

No, just no. Stop.

cousinal11
09-03-2011, 09:40 AM
How did I miss this? I hated Jordan so, so, so, so much during his apex (my teenage years). It's funny to think oh I missed Mantle, Jim Brown, and players of that ilk while I've been treated to MJ, Tiger pre-family dinner, Gretzsky and Mario, even a young Carl Lewis when I was still wearing PJs.

A pointless discussion, complete nonsense. MJ would rip LBJs heart out in the 4th and make him cry.

And 1, six times (rings)

Boobs McGee
09-03-2011, 09:49 AM
Captain narcissism strikes again! GREAT THREAD BUMP :thumbs:


oh, and let me save you the trouble...ahem. "lakers suck, kobe nar nar bynum and pau shnarf shnarf shnarf waah waaah dirk's balls are teh yum yum"

epicSocialism4tw
09-03-2011, 12:55 PM
Captain narcissism strikes again! GREAT THREAD BUMP

oh, and let me save you the trouble...ahem. "lakers suck, kobe nar nar bynum and pau shnarf shnarf shnarf waah waaah dirk's balls are teh yum yum"


Aw, is captain butthurt upset? So sad.

TDmvp
09-03-2011, 01:07 PM
An all-time great thread? Yes.

^5 Yes ...

epicSocialism4tw
09-03-2011, 01:11 PM
^5 Yes ...

Boy, LeBron did about everything he could to make sure that nobody would ever compare him to Jordan again, didn't he? ROFL!

Willynowei
09-03-2011, 03:15 PM
I can at least stomach the comparison with Kobe because the guy is clutch, has 5 rings, and has similar favorite moves.

But Lebron? He doesn't play the same position, has no championships and has a knack for not delivering at the most critical moments of his career, whereas MJ had the opposite tendency.

We can start the comparisons when he wins a few rings, and even then it'll probably be D-wade thats knocking down the winning shots.

Killericon
09-03-2011, 04:25 PM
No one has dominated a sport in the last 30ish years like M.J. did and I don't just mean be in the spotlight I mean win like Bill Russel amounts of titles.

http://michaelmindes.com/images/wayne-gretzky-stanley-cup.jpg

TDmvp
09-03-2011, 04:41 PM
http://michaelmindes.com/images/wayne-gretzky-stanley-cup.jpg

I was meaning in sports people actually watch Hilarious! ...


I'm just kidding Killer , You could mention Gretzky in the convo and not sound stupid at all.

BroncoBuff
09-03-2011, 04:57 PM
And the leader of 11 NBA CHAMPIONSHIPS and one as a player and the coach playing the best talent in the world at the time. Don't knock it. I enjoyed watching Jordon too, but the best ever he is not.

THANK YOU, you're right about Russell ... but don't forget two NCAA Championships at USF, they'd never won anything before that. Unlike Jordan's Tarheels, the Dons were not a powerhouse before his arrival.

People always argue Russell played with great teams, but the Celtics never won a championship before Russell, and started their streak his first full year there.

They also argue he played with great players. That is true, but in all his time there no other Celtic was league MVP. Russell won that award five times ... same number as Jordan.