PDA

View Full Version : List the owners you think are worse owners than the current Pat Bowlen.


baja
06-05-2011, 09:09 PM
List the owners you think are worse owners than the current Pat Bowlen.

SoCalBronco
06-05-2011, 09:11 PM
In no particular order

1. Dan Snyder
2. Jerry Jones
3. Al Davis
4. Mike Brown
5. Denise DeBartolo York
6. Bill Bidwell
7. Jerry Richardson

That's more or less it.

houghtam
06-05-2011, 09:12 PM
In no particular order

1. Dan Snyder
2. Jerry Jones
3. Al Davis
4. Mike Brown
5. Denise DeBartolo York
6. Bill Bidwell

That's more or less it.

Add William Clay Ford to that list IMO.

SoCalBronco
06-05-2011, 09:14 PM
Add William Clay Ford to that list IMO.

That might be fair. They're prolly a wash, in the same general area of each other.

ColoradoDarin
06-05-2011, 09:16 PM
Option 1: the 31 other owners.

Option 2:
Al Davis
Jerry Jones
Dan Snyder
Ralph Wilson
Richardson
Whoever owns the Jags
Bidwell
Mike Brown
Bill Ford
Spanos
Yorks
Bud Adams

cutthemdown
06-05-2011, 09:33 PM
I still love Pat Bowlen. He did a lot for the Broncos and IMO is still trying to win. Sure he made a bad hire, Mcdaniels stunk etc etc but in a couple yrs we won't even care about that. Tebow is going to lead us to glory. He's a winner!

jhns
06-05-2011, 09:45 PM
Every owner is worse than Bowlen. Making a couple of mistakes doesn't make him horrible. It makes him human. Every team has down years.

BroncoMan4ever
06-05-2011, 10:33 PM
why the **** has Bowlen gone from respected owner to being a scrap heap owner?

he made a mistake choosing McDaniels, which is a mistake a lot of Owners would have made at the time. he was the hot young candidate for a HC position and it wasn't just Denver that coveted the guy.

but he realized he made a mistake and cut it out before he did so much harm to the franchise that it was unfixable.

every owner has made mistakes choosing their coaches, but give me a break, a few mistakes does not make him a bad owner.

he wants to win, he will pay out the ass for what his coach wants, he will do anything it takes to bring winning football back to Denver.

we have a damn good owner and i am happy to have him.

baja
06-05-2011, 10:43 PM
why the **** has Bowlen gone from respected owner to being a scrap heap owner?

he made a mistake choosing McDaniels, which is a mistake a lot of Owners would have made at the time. he was the hot young candidate for a HC position and it wasn't just Denver that coveted the guy.

but he realized he made a mistake and cut it out before he did so much harm to the franchise that it was unfixable.

every owner has made mistakes choosing their coaches, but give me a break, a few mistakes does not make him a bad owner.

he wants to win, he will pay out the ass for what his coach wants, he will do anything it takes to bring winning football back to Denver.

we have a damn good owner and i am happy to have him.

The mistake was not choosing Josh it was in the insane amount of power he gave the young rookie coach.

briane
06-05-2011, 10:46 PM
I still love Pat Bowlen. He did a lot for the Broncos and IMO is still trying to win. Sure he made a bad hire, Mcdaniels stunk etc etc but in a couple yrs we won't even care about that. Tebow is going to lead us to glory. He's a winner!

This :thumbs:

SoCalBronco
06-05-2011, 11:02 PM
why the **** has Bowlen gone from respected owner to being a scrap heap owner?

every owner has made mistakes choosing their coaches, but give me a break, a few mistakes does not make him a bad owner.



He didn't make just "a few mistakes". From 2000-2009, Denver averaged 18.75 in the league in terms of spending actual dollars (on payroll). That's below average. Yet, the old man had the audacity to fire Shanahan for essentially .500 football when .500 football was actually an over-performance compared with the financial investment that was made. If Bowlen was insistent on having the DC replaced, he could have fired him through his inherent authority as owner. Instead, he panicked because there was a very bad ending to the season.

His "mistakes" weren't merely mistakes but outright lies to the fanbase. First, he said Jay would be the man and wouldn't be traded, yet that didn't happen. Then, he told fans that we would have a real GM-Coach division of power (which was something BTW, the fans wanted and he recognized), but that too didn't come true. Not only did Bowlen repay the decade-plus good service that Jim Goodman provided him with a pink slip, but he reverted exactly back to what he said he was going to avoid by making the coach the only guy with power. And McDaniels was not ready to have such power and probably should never have had it at any point, even if he was successful. Bowlen was nowhere to be seen when his coach starting scheming to trade away the franchise QB and we saw that Bowlen allowed his thugs to start leaking drinking stories about Jay when the team was getting killed PR-wise in order to stem the tide. Perhaps if people leaked his own problems in that regard he'd see how hurtful that would be. Then, in the greatest crisis we've had in decades, Bowlen slithered away like a coward, allowing the principals to get into a perpetual dick measuring contest. Bowlen claimed to want to craft a detente and in fact he would have been the only one who could do it, but he apparently decided he had more important things to do than to meet with Jay when he came to the facility the only time during the crisis. Then, your precious owner had the audacity to cry crocodile tears that his calls weren't being returned. Get off your ****ing ass old man and walk 200 feet to the other room if you want to talk to the guy, he's right ****ing there.

Bowlen had an amazing lack of common sense and allowed himself to get completely hoodwinked by snakes like Joe Ellis. He did nothing while this team burned. He did nothing as this team went to hell in a handbasket, except hide behind others and let them speak for him. Then, after the disaster of 2010, we made our voices clear that we wanted someone legitimately qualified to run things as a true GM and he went out and hired Elway, who had no real experience for the position. It's almost as if he was insulting the intelligence of his fanbase. "I don't care what you think......here's a shiny toy, look its John Elway, its all better". Bowlen is a shell of his former self and our franchise has suffered greatly because of it.

Don't believe me? Look at our franchise, look at how we are regarded. Why do you think THREE coaches declined the oppurtunity to be interviewed. It was widely acknowledged that the "finalists" for our position weren't exactly the cream of the crop. 10 years ago, people would have killed for this job. Now....we are forced to settle. Why do you think that is? Is the whole league wrong in its evaluation of the desireability of being part of our franchise?

This falls squarely in Bowlen's lap. This is the change he wanted. I hope he's happy with the bed he's made. He's not even within shouting distance of being an average owner, currently.

But go on...keep pretending that he just "made a mistake".

strafen
06-05-2011, 11:05 PM
Pat Bowlen doesn't belong in a list of bad owners. The guy has done a lot for the team.
I love Pat! :thumbs:

Shananahan
06-06-2011, 12:28 AM
Somebody doing a thesis on the detrimental psychological effects of being too in love with sports figures needs to get ahold of SoCal while they still can.

Agamemnon
06-06-2011, 01:44 AM
Bad owners generally either fall into the category of control freaks who try to run everything from behind the curtain (i.e. Al Davis or Jerry Jones), cheapskates who refuse to spend money on the players that deserve it (i.e. Panthers' ownership), or idiots who think that money is all that's needed to build a good team (i.e. Dan Snyder).

I don't see how Bowlen belongs in any of those categories.

Agamemnon
06-06-2011, 01:56 AM
He didn't make just "a few mistakes". From 2000-2009, Denver averaged 18.75 in the league in terms of spending actual dollars (on payroll). That's below average. Yet, the old man had the audacity to fire Shanahan for essentially .500 football when .500 football was actually an over-performance compared with the financial investment that was made. If Bowlen was insistent on having the DC replaced, he could have fired him through his inherent authority as owner. Instead, he panicked because there was a very bad ending to the season.

His "mistakes" weren't merely mistakes but outright lies to the fanbase. First, he said Jay would be the man and wouldn't be traded, yet that didn't happen. Then, he told fans that we would have a real GM-Coach division of power (which was something BTW, the fans wanted and he recognized), but that too didn't come true. Not only did Bowlen repay the decade-plus good service that Jim Goodman provided him with a pink slip, but he reverted exactly back to what he said he was going to avoid by making the coach the only guy with power. And McDaniels was not ready to have such power and probably should never have had it at any point, even if he was successful. Bowlen was nowhere to be seen when his coach starting scheming to trade away the franchise QB and we saw that Bowlen allowed his thugs to start leaking drinking stories about Jay when the team was getting killed PR-wise in order to stem the tide. Perhaps if people leaked his own problems in that regard he'd see how hurtful that would be. Then, in the greatest crisis we've had in decades, Bowlen slithered away like a coward, allowing the principals to get into a perpetual dick measuring contest. Bowlen claimed to want to craft a detente and in fact he would have been the only one who could do it, but he apparently decided he had more important things to do than to meet with Jay when he came to the facility the only time during the crisis. Then, your precious owner had the audacity to cry crocodile tears that his calls weren't being returned. Get off your ****ing ass old man and walk 200 feet to the other room if you want to talk to the guy, he's right ****ing there.

Bowlen had an amazing lack of common sense and allowed himself to get completely hoodwinked by snakes like Joe Ellis. He did nothing while this team burned. He did nothing as this team went to hell in a handbasket, except hide behind others and let them speak for him. Then, after the disaster of 2010, we made our voices clear that we wanted someone legitimately qualified to run things as a true GM and he went out and hired Elway, who had no real experience for the position. It's almost as if he was insulting the intelligence of his fanbase. "I don't care what you think......here's a shiny toy, look its John Elway, its all better". Bowlen is a shell of his former self and our franchise has suffered greatly because of it.

Don't believe me? Look at our franchise, look at how we are regarded. Why do you think THREE coaches declined the oppurtunity to be interviewed. It was widely acknowledged that the "finalists" for our position weren't exactly the cream of the crop. 10 years ago, people would have killed for this job. Now....we are forced to settle. Why do you think that is? Is the whole league wrong in its evaluation of the desireability of being part of our franchise?

This falls squarely in Bowlen's lap. This is the change he wanted. I hope he's happy with the bed he's made. He's not even within shouting distance of being an average owner, currently.

But go on...keep pretending that he just "made a mistake".

I really can't believe there are still people that believe we'd be better off right now if we had kept Shanny and Cutler. I mean seriously?

Did you miss the NFCCG where Cutler took himself out of the game with a bad knee...that he then proceeded to stand on for the rest of the game, watching his team lose?

Did you miss Shanahan's horrid mishandling of both McNabb and Haynesworth, and the complete torpedoing of a previously solid defense into a complete joke (as in a drop from 10th overall to 31st overall)?

Hate to break it to you, but neither of your heroes are what you think they are. Not even close.

Pat Bowlen
06-06-2011, 02:48 AM
He's not even within shouting distance of being an average owner, currently.
While this is correct, it's hardly fair. Sound just doesn't travel very far at my altitude.

BroncoMan4ever
06-06-2011, 03:15 AM
The mistake was not choosing Josh it was in the insane amount of power he gave the young rookie coach.

that is how he has always run the franchise. the mistake was choosing the wrong coach to bestow that kind of authority to. aside from Wade's 2 years boht Reeves and Shanahan had complete authority over all football operations. it is the system Bowlen liked, so he went with it again. sure it was a mistake, but he rectified that by ending the tenure of McDaniels and changing the system with which he runs the franchise to what we now have.

bad owners don't fix their mistakes and learn from them. they just keep repeating the same patterns. Pat went with what worked for his franchise. Reeves had this team as an upper level team for years and Mike won 2 super bowls wwith the system of letting the coach call all the shots, but once that system no longer worked he adopted a new one.

Bowlen is a good owner.

BroncoMan4ever
06-06-2011, 03:51 AM
He didn't make just "a few mistakes". From 2000-2009, Denver averaged 18.75 in the league in terms of spending actual dollars (on payroll). That's below average. Yet, the old man had the audacity to fire Shanahan for essentially .500 football when .500 football was actually an over-performance compared with the financial investment that was made. If Bowlen was insistent on having the DC replaced, he could have fired him through his inherent authority as owner. Instead, he panicked because there was a very bad ending to the season.


you bring up what Bowlen spent on his team but you are forgeting that Denver also was amongst league leaders in dead money due to bad contracts given by Shanahan. you can't spend what you don't have. and with contracts to guys like Gardener, Carter, Henry and other turds of that ilk that were still counted against the cap even though those guys were no longer giving anything to the team is what drops the number on what he was spending on payroll. it wasn't until like 2008 that the cap number got well under the cap limit

Bowlen fired Shanahan because his message to the team was getting old. players were no longer responding. and for an owner with aspirations of Super Bowl wins .500 football is not the answer. losing the division with a 3 game lead with 3 to go would get almost any coach in the league fired.

Bowlen said repeatedly Mike was his coach for life, but he saw just like many of the fans were seeing, Mike wasn't the answer anymore.



His "mistakes" weren't merely mistakes but outright lies to the fanbase. First, he said Jay would be the man and wouldn't be traded, yet that didn't happen. Then, he told fans that we would have a real GM-Coach division of power (which was something BTW, the fans wanted and he recognized), but that too didn't come true. Not only did Bowlen repay the decade-plus good service that Jim Goodman provided him with a pink slip, but he reverted exactly back to what he said he was going to avoid by making the coach the only guy with power. And McDaniels was not ready to have such power and probably should never have had it at any point, even if he was successful. Bowlen was nowhere to be seen when his coach starting scheming to trade away the franchise QB and we saw that Bowlen allowed his thugs to start leaking drinking stories about Jay when the team was getting killed PR-wise in order to stem the tide. Perhaps if people leaked his own problems in that regard he'd see how hurtful that would be. Then, in the greatest crisis we've had in decades, Bowlen slithered away like a coward, allowing the principals to get into a perpetual dick measuring contest. Bowlen claimed to want to craft a detente and in fact he would have been the only one who could do it, but he apparently decided he had more important things to do than to meet with Jay when he came to the facility the only time during the crisis. Then, your precious owner had the audacity to cry crocodile tears that his calls weren't being returned. Get off your ****ing ass old man and walk 200 feet to the other room if you want to talk to the guy, he's right ****ing there.

Bowlen said what he believed in the Jay drama. at the time he said it, it was unimaginable that Jay would be traded. it wasn't until Jay turned into a whiny bitch asking for a trade(it is documented he asked for a trade after McDaniels explored the idea of bringing in a QB he liked better) that his words backfired on him. he wasn't saying one thing and then cooking up a scheme behind fans backs. he was saying what he believed and then was left with no other options when it became apparent that his QB was a whiny pussy who couldn't take criticism and would be unwilling to work with the coach he just hired.

Bowlen was Jay's boss. you don't kiss an employees ass, your employee does what you want and if he doesn't he can work some place else. had he kissed Jay's ass and begged him to play nice and come back to the team i would say Bowlen is a terrible owner, but being that Jay was a whiny bitch, and had been a subpar QB with a bad won loss record there is no way Pat should have kissed his ass. he called Jay, McDaniels called him, seems like the men in charge tried to fix the situation, but the whiny bitch wanted no part of it.



Bowlen had an amazing lack of common sense and allowed himself to get completely hoodwinked by snakes like Joe Ellis. He did nothing while this team burned. He did nothing as this team went to hell in a handbasket, except hide behind others and let them speak for him. Then, after the disaster of 2010, we made our voices clear that we wanted someone legitimately qualified to run things as a true GM and he went out and hired Elway, who had no real experience for the position. It's almost as if he was insulting the intelligence of his fanbase. "I don't care what you think......here's a shiny toy, look its John Elway, its all better". Bowlen is a shell of his former self and our franchise has suffered greatly because of it.

what was he going to do while his team burned? pull an Al Davis and cut off his coaches legs? be like Jerry Jones and call the plays? strap on the pads and take the field? he did what an owner can. listen to advisors he trusts(not saying i agree with or like his advisors) but take advice, look for a new coach which he did, and picked the wrong one.

what true GMs were really available that were qualified with on the job experience? front office guys in Houston? because they have been kicking ass in Houston we really need to bring in the leaders of an annual sub .500 team. maybe could have lured Parcells into a consultant role for a season....maybe. John didn't have the NFL experience, but he knows the game. He knows he doesn't know everything, he built up and had a huge part in crafting an AFL franchise that won league championships.

you talk like guys like Pioli, or Newsome were available and that Pat just said **** those guys i am going to bring back John.


Don't believe me? Look at our franchise, look at how we are regarded. Why do you think THREE coaches declined the oppurtunity to be interviewed. It was widely acknowledged that the "finalists" for our position weren't exactly the cream of the crop. 10 years ago, people would have killed for this job. Now....we are forced to settle. Why do you think that is? Is the whole league wrong in its evaluation of the desireability of being part of our franchise?

This falls squarely in Bowlen's lap. This is the change he wanted. I hope he's happy with the bed he's made. He's not even within shouting distance of being an average owner, currently.

But go on...keep pretending that he just "made a mistake".

this team right now is regarded as trashed. there is nothing left on it. an agins superstar at Corner, a LT recovering from a bad knee injury, a pass rusher recovering from a season ending injury and a whole lot of nothing else.

with the NFL basically standing for Not For Long, coaches aren't exactly chomping at the bit to take on a job that will take at least 3 years before the team is turned around and a legit contender when they know they aren't going to be given a long term to fix their predecessors mistakes.

do you really think Harbaugh wants his innaugural HC season to be for a team that needs as much work as this one? Greg Williams and Mularkey are on quite possibly their final chances to be an NFL HC and they wanted to wait for the right situation. you don't always take the job just because it is offered unless you think it is the right move for you. Harbaugh, Williams and Mularkey all had their own reasons for why they felt the Denver job was not the right move for them at the time. be it not wanting to begin your career rebuilding a franchise or you want the right spot for your last chance there are going to be personal reasons.

also 10 years ago this team was 2 seasons removed from a super bowl victory, and due to that it would have been believed to not be far from being a contender again. this is a team that needs to be torn down and rebuilt now, and there are not many coaches up to that task of rebuilding a team from nothing. it has nothing to do with Denver being a bad place or Bowlen being a bad owner.

tsiguy96
06-06-2011, 04:28 AM
top 10, for sure. non invasive owner whos willing to front the money for a good team, and who is not afraid to push the envelope and take a risk (ie mcdaniels?) is the guy i want.

gunns
06-06-2011, 06:05 AM
From 2000-2009, Denver averaged 18.75 in the league in terms of spending actual dollars (on payroll). That's below average. Yet, the old man had the audacity to fire Shanahan for essentially .500 football when .500 football was actually an over-performance compared with the financial investment that was made. If Bowlen was insistent on having the DC replaced, he could have fired him through his inherent authority as owner. Instead, he panicked because there was a very bad ending to the season.


I'm not buying this as Shanahan's downfall. First, I'd like to see a link to other teams payrolls for 10 years, plus whether this was for the full 10 years or just the last few as there was a point it came out that Bowlen was shutting his pocketbook. Second, even if the payroll part is true, over the entire 10 years, you can't sweep under the rug Shanahan's draft, his circus of DC's, or his lack of focus on the defense. Third, I don't believe he would have ever given up the GM part of his job, and I believe THAT was the biggest part of his downfall.

Bowlen claimed to want to craft a detente and in fact he would have been the only one who could do it, but he apparently decided he had more important things to do than to meet with Jay when he came to the facility the only time during the crisis. Then, your precious owner had the audacity to cry crocodile tears that his calls weren't being returned. Get off your ****ing ass old man and walk 200 feet to the other room if you want to talk to the guy, he's right ****ing there.


I agree with this. Now I was one that did not like Cutler long before the whole fiasco. He was an ass who threw his teammates under the bus and did not recognize his own part in losses. But it takes two to tango and it seemed strange and not realistic that Cutler was the only one that was the ass in this. People chose to believe Bowlen about Cutler not returning phone calls. None of us knows what actually happened but situations like this are rarely one sided.

Then, after the disaster of 2010, we made our voices clear that we wanted someone legitimately qualified to run things as a true GM and he went out and hired Elway, who had no real experience for the position. It's almost as if he was insulting the intelligence of his fanbase. "I don't care what you think......here's a shiny toy, look its John Elway, its all better". Bowlen is a shell of his former self and our franchise has suffered greatly because of it.



I don't know that this is going to be another downfall. IMO, we just had the best draft in more than 10 years. Who knows why other coaches didn't interview, your take could be spot on. But I do believe they got the best of what was left and a coach who got a team to a SB, is defensive minded I'll take, a VP who was one of the best offensive players to ever play the game, and recognizes that defense is of utmost importance, hell I'm excited to see what happens.

I think Bowlen got rid of Shanahan because it had gotten stale. Bowlen made a bad move back in the 90's by hiring Phillips. It wasn't the disaster McD was but not a good pick. I think Bowlen has done an excellent job at being the owner. When he gets involved with personnel decisions, including head coach, he finally realized he needed help and got it.

TonyR
06-06-2011, 07:02 AM
I really can't believe there are still people that believe we'd be better off right now if we had kept Shanny and Cutler. I mean seriously?

Did you miss the NFCCG where Cutler took himself out of the game with a bad knee...that he then proceeded to stand on for the rest of the game, watching his team lose?

Did you miss Shanahan's horrid mishandling of both McNabb and Haynesworth, and the complete torpedoing of a previously solid defense into a complete joke (as in a drop from 10th overall to 31st overall)?

Hate to break it to you, but neither of your heroes are what you think they are. Not even close.

Yup. Well said.

cmhargrove
06-06-2011, 07:03 AM
Somebody doing a thesis on the detrimental psychological effects of being too in love with sports figures needs to get ahold of SoCal while they still can.

he, he, he. Rep.

I love me some Broncos. My family would call me an addict. However, its just a game, and last time I checked 31 out of 32 teams went home as losers last year.

Enjoy the ride SoCal, life is short.

BowlenBall
06-06-2011, 07:08 AM
I have a lot of respect for Pat Bowlen and what he's done over the last three decades -- I believe he's a genuinely good, genuinly real person who always does what he thinks is best for the team.

Granted, he's got a few personality quirks (check out the fur coat in my avatar), and he's the second worst public speaker in professional sports (behind Brian Xanders), but I wouldn't trade him for any other owner in the league, to be honest.

To respond to the OP, here's my list, and where I think Bowlen falls as an owner as of today (no credit for past glory, just my confidence in ownership for the coming few years):

1. The community of Green Bay, Green Bay Packers
2. Dan Rooney, Pittsburgh Steelers
3. Robert Kraft, New England Patriots
4. Steve Bisciotti, Baltimore Ravens
5. Arthur Blank, Atlanta Falcons
6. Pat Bowlen, Denver Broncos
7. Tom Benson, New Orleans Saints
8. Bob McNair, Houston Texans
9. Jeffrey Lurie, Philadelphia Eagles
10. Jim Irsay, Indianapolis Colts
11. John Mara & Steve Tisch, New York Giants
12. Woody Johnson, New York Jets
13. Malcolm Glazer, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
14. Alex Spanos, San Diego Chargers
15. Ralph Wilson, Buffalo Bills
16. Clark Hunt, Kansas City Chiefs
17. Virginia McCaskey, Chicago Bears
18. Paul Allen, Seattle Seahawks
19. Randy Lerner, Cleveland Browns
20. Stephen Ross, Miami Dolphins
21. Zygi Wilf, Minnesota Vikings
22. Jerry Jones, Dallas Cowboys
23. Dan Snyder, Washington Redskins
24. Stan Kroenke, St. Louis Rams
25. Jerry Richardson, Carolina Panthers
26. Wayne Weaver, Jacksonville Jaguars
27. Bud Adams, Tennessee Titans
28. Bill Bidwell, Arizona Cardinals
29. John and Denise York, San Francisco 49ers
30. William Clay Ford, Detroit Lions
31. Al Davis, Oakland Raiders
32. Mike Brown, Cincinnati Bengals

TonyR
06-06-2011, 07:16 AM
Look at our franchise, look at how we are regarded. Why do you think THREE coaches declined the oppurtunity to be interviewed. It was widely acknowledged that the "finalists" for our position weren't exactly the cream of the crop. 10 years ago, people would have killed for this job. Now....we are forced to settle. Why do you think that is? Is the whole league wrong in its evaluation of the desireability of being part of our franchise?

I don't know that it's fair to put this all on Bowlen's lap. He certainly deserves some of the blame. But if I'm a top tier NFL head coaching candidate here's what would have made me think twice about coaching in Denver:
1) Working for John Elway (many would probably prefer not to coach in his shadow)
2) Tim Tebow (many probably don't want to saddle themselves with the Tebow experiment)
3) lack of talent on defense (which goes all the way back to the Shanahan years)

bowtown
06-06-2011, 07:19 AM
I don't know that it's fair to put this all on Bowlen's lap. He certainly deserves some of the blame. But if I'm a top tier NFL head coaching candidate here's what would have made me think twice about coaching in Denver:
1) Working for John Elway (many would probably prefer not to coach in his shadow)
2) Tim Tebow (many probably don't want to saddle themselves with the Tebow experiment)
3) lack of talent on defense (which goes all the way back to the Shanahan years)

PS. We got the best coach available.

TonyR
06-06-2011, 07:20 AM
Here's the recent ESPN rankings:


1 Rooney family
2 Robert Kraft
3 Packers' exec. comm.
4 Mara/Tisch
5 Jeffrey Lurie
6 Steve Bisciotti
7 Jim Irsay
8 Jerry Jones
9 Arthur Blank
10 Woody Johnson -
Others Receiving Votes
11 Pat Bowlen, Broncos
12 Bob McNair, Texans
13 McCaskeys, Bears
13 Paul Allen, Seahawks

http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/28755/power-rankings-top-10-nfl-owners

TonyR
06-06-2011, 07:22 AM
PS. We got the best coach available.

Maybe. But in response to SoCal, we didn't get the top candidate.

CEH
06-06-2011, 07:23 AM
He didn't make just "a few mistakes". From 2000-2009, Denver averaged 18.75 in the league in terms of spending actual dollars (on payroll). That's below average. Yet, the old man had the audacity to fire Shanahan for essentially .500 football when .500 football was actually an over-performance compared with the financial investment that was made. If Bowlen was insistent on having the DC replaced, he could have fired him through his inherent authority as owner. Instead, he panicked because there was a very bad ending to the season.

His "mistakes" weren't merely mistakes but outright lies to the fanbase. First, he said Jay would be the man and wouldn't be traded, yet that didn't happen. Then, he told fans that we would have a real GM-Coach division of power (which was something BTW, the fans wanted and he recognized), but that too didn't come true. Not only did Bowlen repay the decade-plus good service that Jim Goodman provided him with a pink slip, but he reverted exactly back to what he said he was going to avoid by making the coach the only guy with power. And McDaniels was not ready to have such power and probably should never have had it at any point, even if he was successful. Bowlen was nowhere to be seen when his coach starting scheming to trade away the franchise QB and we saw that Bowlen allowed his thugs to start leaking drinking stories about Jay when the team was getting killed PR-wise in order to stem the tide. Perhaps if people leaked his own problems in that regard he'd see how hurtful that would be. Then, in the greatest crisis we've had in decades, Bowlen slithered away like a coward, allowing the principals to get into a perpetual dick measuring contest. Bowlen claimed to want to craft a detente and in fact he would have been the only one who could do it, but he apparently decided he had more important things to do than to meet with Jay when he came to the facility the only time during the crisis. Then, your precious owner had the audacity to cry crocodile tears that his calls weren't being returned. Get off your ****ing ass old man and walk 200 feet to the other room if you want to talk to the guy, he's right ****ing there.

Bowlen had an amazing lack of common sense and allowed himself to get completely hoodwinked by snakes like Joe Ellis. He did nothing while this team burned. He did nothing as this team went to hell in a handbasket, except hide behind others and let them speak for him. Then, after the disaster of 2010, we made our voices clear that we wanted someone legitimately qualified to run things as a true GM and he went out and hired Elway, who had no real experience for the position. It's almost as if he was insulting the intelligence of his fanbase. "I don't care what you think......here's a shiny toy, look its John Elway, its all better". Bowlen is a shell of his former self and our franchise has suffered greatly because of it.

Don't believe me? Look at our franchise, look at how we are regarded. Why do you think THREE coaches declined the oppurtunity to be interviewed. It was widely acknowledged that the "finalists" for our position weren't exactly the cream of the crop. 10 years ago, people would have killed for this job. Now....we are forced to settle. Why do you think that is? Is the whole league wrong in its evaluation of the desireability of being part of our franchise?

This falls squarely in Bowlen's lap. This is the change he wanted. I hope he's happy with the bed he's made. He's not even within shouting distance of being an average owner, currently.

But go on...keep pretending that he just "made a mistake".

The basis for the '07-08 team should have been studs or quality players from the '01-04 drafts. I think we had one DJ and a trade of Portis for Bailey.
Is Pat Bowlen responsible for the god awful drafts of '01-04 that led to the worst defense this team has seen in 40+ years?


I'd like to see the dead money Shanahan left on the table compared to the other teams before I call Bowlen out. I can see Bowlen one major flaw was letting Joe Ellis get involved on the football side of the house. maybe he felt he needed some financial contraints with the way Shanny was throwing money around to crooks , thugs and drug lords

TonyR
06-06-2011, 07:31 AM
I'd like to see the dead money Shanahan left on the table compared to the other teams before I call Bowlen out.

Not to mention the huge bill Bowlen had to pay for Shanahan's compensation. How can someone worship Shanahan but hate the guy who paid him tens of millions to run his organization?

ZachKC
06-06-2011, 07:44 AM
One of my first jobs as a kid was at a ****ty movie theater. The owner was a dumbass. But we got to watch movies and eat popcorn and plug our band's equipment into the theater sound system and rock out.

So it is a tough call.

baja
06-06-2011, 07:56 AM
I have a lot of respect for Pat Bowlen and what he's done over the last three decades -- I believe he's a genuinely good, genuinly real person who always does what he thinks is best for the team.

Granted, he's got a few personality quirks (check out the fur coat in my avatar), and he's the second worst public speaker in professional sports (behind Brian Xanders), but I wouldn't trade him for any other owner in the league, to be honest.

To respond to the OP, here's my list, and where I think Bowlen falls as an owner as of today (no credit for past glory, just my confidence in ownership for the coming few years):

1. The community of Green Bay, Green Bay Packers
2. Dan Rooney, Pittsburgh Steelers
3. Robert Kraft, New England Patriots
4. Steve Bisciotti, Baltimore Ravens
5. Arthur Blank, Atlanta Falcons
6. Pat Bowlen, Denver Broncos
7. Tom Benson, New Orleans Saints
8. Bob McNair, Houston Texans
9. Jeffrey Lurie, Philadelphia Eagles
10. Jim Irsay, Indianapolis Colts
11. John Mara & Steve Tisch, New York Giants
12. Woody Johnson, New York Jets
13. Malcolm Glazer, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
14. Alex Spanos, San Diego Chargers
15. Ralph Wilson, Buffalo Bills
16. Clark Hunt, Kansas City Chiefs
17. Virginia McCaskey, Chicago Bears
18. Paul Allen, Seattle Seahawks
19. Randy Lerner, Cleveland Browns
20. Stephen Ross, Miami Dolphins
21. Zygi Wilf, Minnesota Vikings
22. Jerry Jones, Dallas Cowboys
23. Dan Snyder, Washington Redskins
24. Stan Kroenke, St. Louis Rams
25. Jerry Richardson, Carolina Panthers
26. Wayne Weaver, Jacksonville Jaguars
27. Bud Adams, Tennessee Titans
28. Bill Bidwell, Arizona Cardinals
29. John and Denise York, San Francisco 49ers
30. William Clay Ford, Detroit Lions
31. Al Davis, Oakland Raiders
32. Mike Brown, Cincinnati Bengals

Excellent points and a good list. I do think you Snyder too high though.

bowtown
06-06-2011, 08:24 AM
Maybe. But in response to SoCal, we didn't get the top candidate.

I'm wondering who that is and where they are now coaching.

TheReverend
06-06-2011, 08:25 AM
He didn't make just "a few mistakes". From 2000-2009, Denver averaged 18.75 in the league in terms of spending actual dollars (on payroll). That's below average. Yet, the old man had the audacity to fire Shanahan for essentially .500 football when .500 football was actually an over-performance compared with the financial investment that was made. If Bowlen was insistent on having the DC replaced, he could have fired him through his inherent authority as owner. Instead, he panicked because there was a very bad ending to the season.

His "mistakes" weren't merely mistakes but outright lies to the fanbase. First, he said Jay would be the man and wouldn't be traded, yet that didn't happen. Then, he told fans that we would have a real GM-Coach division of power (which was something BTW, the fans wanted and he recognized), but that too didn't come true. Not only did Bowlen repay the decade-plus good service that Jim Goodman provided him with a pink slip, but he reverted exactly back to what he said he was going to avoid by making the coach the only guy with power. And McDaniels was not ready to have such power and probably should never have had it at any point, even if he was successful. Bowlen was nowhere to be seen when his coach starting scheming to trade away the franchise QB and we saw that Bowlen allowed his thugs to start leaking drinking stories about Jay when the team was getting killed PR-wise in order to stem the tide. Perhaps if people leaked his own problems in that regard he'd see how hurtful that would be. Then, in the greatest crisis we've had in decades, Bowlen slithered away like a coward, allowing the principals to get into a perpetual dick measuring contest. Bowlen claimed to want to craft a detente and in fact he would have been the only one who could do it, but he apparently decided he had more important things to do than to meet with Jay when he came to the facility the only time during the crisis. Then, your precious owner had the audacity to cry crocodile tears that his calls weren't being returned. Get off your ****ing ass old man and walk 200 feet to the other room if you want to talk to the guy, he's right ****ing there.

Bowlen had an amazing lack of common sense and allowed himself to get completely hoodwinked by snakes like Joe Ellis. He did nothing while this team burned. He did nothing as this team went to hell in a handbasket, except hide behind others and let them speak for him. Then, after the disaster of 2010, we made our voices clear that we wanted someone legitimately qualified to run things as a true GM and he went out and hired Elway, who had no real experience for the position. It's almost as if he was insulting the intelligence of his fanbase. "I don't care what you think......here's a shiny toy, look its John Elway, its all better". Bowlen is a shell of his former self and our franchise has suffered greatly because of it.

Don't believe me? Look at our franchise, look at how we are regarded. Why do you think THREE coaches declined the oppurtunity to be interviewed. It was widely acknowledged that the "finalists" for our position weren't exactly the cream of the crop. 10 years ago, people would have killed for this job. Now....we are forced to settle. Why do you think that is? Is the whole league wrong in its evaluation of the desireability of being part of our franchise?

This falls squarely in Bowlen's lap. This is the change he wanted. I hope he's happy with the bed he's made. He's not even within shouting distance of being an average owner, currently.

But go on...keep pretending that he just "made a mistake".

In general, I agree with this. :thumbsup:

Beantown Bronco
06-06-2011, 08:27 AM
I really can't believe there are still people that believe we'd be better off right now if we had kept Shanny and Cutler. I mean seriously?

Ummmm, I've never been a leader of the "I wish we still had Shanny" camp and personally don't like Cutler, but to claim we wouldn't have been better off the last two years with them is borderline insane. You really think we would've had the #2 overall pick this year WITH them? Please.

bowtown
06-06-2011, 08:28 AM
In general, I agree with this. :thumbsup:

I agree with about 2/3 of it.

TheReverend
06-06-2011, 08:47 AM
I'm wondering who that is and where they are now coaching.

I assume he means Mularkey, Williams and Harbaugh. Two of which "decided" to stay with their current situation and Harbaugh signed in SF without even listening to Elway's pitch.

bowtown
06-06-2011, 08:56 AM
I assume he means Mularkey, Williams and Harbaugh. Two of which "decided" to stay with their current situation and Harbaugh signed in SF without even listening to Elway's pitch.

None of those, with the exception of Harbaugh, would I consider "premiere candidates." And there were legitimate circumstances surrounding all three not interviewing with Denver. I guess it just depends on whether you want to blame it on those or just go ahead and blame all of it on Bolwen. While I think Bowlen has been totally hoodwinked by Satan (Joe Ellis) and is indeed a shadow of his former self. I really don't subscribe to the idea that Bowlen as an owner has anything to do with Denver being unappealing for a head coach.

Besides, I still think we did get the top candidate out there to interview with us and take the job. Just my opinion though.

Pick Six
06-06-2011, 10:03 AM
We needed a defensive-minded coach. We also needed an experienced NFL head coach. We got both of that with Fox. Let's see how it play out before he is trashed...

Cito Pelon
06-06-2011, 10:05 AM
He didn't make just "a few mistakes". From 2000-2009, Denver averaged 18.75 in the league in terms of spending actual dollars (on payroll). That's below average.

That was debunked long ago, SoCal. It's disengenuous of you to try and revive that. The 'dead' cap money from TD, Elway, Griese, IHOP, Dale Carter, etc terminally flawed that theory. Denver couldn't spend money they didn't have to spend.

IMO, you should just relax a little bit and see how it plays out. I can't criticize you for being up in arms about the current situation, but IMO a little optimism never hurt anybody.

TheReverend
06-06-2011, 10:08 AM
None of those, with the exception of Harbaugh, would I consider "premiere candidates." And there were legitimate circumstances surrounding all three not interviewing with Denver. I guess it just depends on whether you want to blame it on those or just go ahead and blame all of it on Bolwen. While I think Bowlen has been totally hoodwinked by Satan (Joe Ellis) and is indeed a shadow of his former self. I really don't subscribe to the idea that Bowlen as an owner has anything to do with Denver being unappealing for a head coach.

Besides, I still think we did get the top candidate out there to interview with us and take the job. Just my opinion though.

Agree. But while I think Mularkey cancelling his interview was legitimate, I think William's wasn't (yes, even though communication was still open with him to bring in Allen), and I do think Bowlen and Ellis are both bumbling idiots.

Beantown Bronco
06-06-2011, 10:09 AM
That was debunked long ago, SoCal. It's disengenuous of you to try and revive that. The 'dead' cap money from TD, Elway, Griese, IHOP, Dale Carter, etc terminally flawed that theory. Denver couldn't spend money they didn't have to spend..

Every team deals with dead cap space. SoCal just gave a 10 year period and the fact is, none of those guys you just listed had dead money on the books for more than a year or two of the time period in question.

TonyR
06-06-2011, 10:44 AM
I assume he means Mularkey, Williams and Harbaugh.

I assumed the same, and I think Harbaugh was widely considered to be the marquee candidate unless you include names like Cowher and Gruden.

TonyR
06-06-2011, 10:45 AM
We needed a defensive-minded coach. We also needed an experienced NFL head coach. We got both of that with Fox. Let's see how it play out before he is trashed...

I don't think anyone is trashing Fox. I'm very happy with the choice but he certainly wasn't considered "the best" candidate largely because Carolina was so bad last year.

Cito Pelon
06-06-2011, 11:12 AM
Ummmm, I've never been a leader of the "I wish we still had Shanny" camp and personally don't like Cutler, but to claim we wouldn't have been better off the last two years with them is borderline insane. You really think we would've had the #2 overall pick this year WITH them? Please.

Probably not 4-12, but probably no more than a .500 team again.

The team Shanny left behind had major flaws in multiple units. Shanny & Co. would have had to address the multiple unit flaws the same as the subsequent regime had to - interior OL, DL, LB, S, CB, RB, WR, TE.

Shanny would have been scrambling to get all the units up to AFC West title grade, and there's no guarantee Shanny would have done so.

TheReverend
06-06-2011, 11:30 AM
he made a mistake choosing McDaniels, which is a mistake a lot of Owners would have made at the time. he was the hot young candidate for a HC position and it wasn't just Denver that coveted the guy.

Pure speculation. Meanwhile, literally every other rookie HC that year is killin it.

Archer81
06-06-2011, 11:32 AM
Bowlen is human, he makes mistakes. It happens. But he is not worse than the Browns, Yorks, Snyder, Modell (I know, former owner...), Irsay, Bidwell or whoever the hell owns Jacksonville.

:Broncos:

TheReverend
06-06-2011, 11:34 AM
Bowlen is human, he makes mistakes. It happens. But he is not worse than the Browns, Yorks, Snyder, Modell (I know, former owner...), Irsay, Bidwell or whoever the hell owns Jacksonville.

:Broncos:

Can you name any good decisions he made other than tampering with the 9ers to hire to Shanahan?

...Anything?

Because I can name a dozen mistakes (or just point you back to SoCal's post lol)

Archer81
06-06-2011, 11:38 AM
Can you name any good decisions he made other than tampering with the 9ers to hire to Shanahan?

...Anything?

Because I can name a dozen mistakes (or just point you back to SoCal's post lol)


He canned Reeves and kept Elway. That trumps alot of mistakes.


:Broncos:

TheReverend
06-06-2011, 11:50 AM
He canned Reeves and kept Elway. That trumps alot of mistakes.


:Broncos:

Shame he couldn't remember that precedent when this decade needed him to.

Cito Pelon
06-06-2011, 11:55 AM
Every team deals with dead cap space. SoCal just gave a 10 year period and the fact is, none of those guys you just listed had dead money on the books for more than a year or two of the time period in question.

The cumulative dead money for year after year from FA signings is what debunks SoCal's theory that Bowlen "didn't spend". Denver dished out FA signing bonuses to guys like Leon Lett, Raylee Johnson, Chuck Smith, Dale Carter, Lee Woodall, Jerry Rice, Robert Brooks, and a dozen other guys over that 10-yr period that never made any impact but those $800k - $1 million signing bonuses had an impact on the salary cap. And there was some bigtime hits on the salary cap from some bigtime busts.

Beantown Bronco
06-06-2011, 11:57 AM
The cumulative dead money for year after year from FA signings is what debunks SoCal's theory that Bowlen "didn't spend". Denver dished out FA signing bonuses to guys like Leon Lett, Raylee Johnson, Chuck Smith, Dale Carter, Lee Woodall, Jerry Rice, Robert Brooks, and a dozen other guys over that 10-yr period that never made any impact but those $800k - $1 million signing bonuses had an impact on the salary cap. And there was some bigtime hits on the salary cap from some bigtime busts.

Nope. Sorry. Not buying. Not unless you can prove that the other 31 teams didn't have any such problems.

Cito Pelon
06-06-2011, 12:29 PM
Pure speculation. Meanwhile, literally every other rookie HC that year is killin it.

Maybe.

Let's see - Schwartz, Spagnuolo, Morris, Caldwell, Haley, Ryan.

"Killin it" ????? If you say so, that's fine with me.

Cito Pelon
06-06-2011, 12:58 PM
Nope. Sorry. Not buying. Not unless you can prove that the other 31 teams didn't have any such problems.

Name an FA guy Shanny had a big hit on. You know as well as I do that Denver didn't have the cap money to spend on big name FA's after blowing cap space on big money FA failures.

Beantown Bronco
06-06-2011, 01:05 PM
Name an FA guy Shanny had a big hit on.

Bertrand Berry.

Next.

Tombstone RJ
06-06-2011, 01:17 PM
Bertrand Berry.

Next.

Is that the same B. Berry Shanny let walk too? Next.

Beantown Bronco
06-06-2011, 01:24 PM
Is that the same B. Berry Shanny let walk too? Next.

That actually supports my point.

Tombstone RJ
06-06-2011, 01:28 PM
That actually supports my point.

what point was that?

Beantown Bronco
06-06-2011, 01:34 PM
what point was that?

Really SoCal's:

From 2000-2009, Denver averaged 18.75 in the league in terms of spending actual dollars (on payroll). That's below average.

It was essentially penny pinching that kept them from re-signing Berry.

Tombstone RJ
06-06-2011, 01:37 PM
Really SoCal's:

From 2000-2009, Denver averaged 18.75 in the league in terms of spending actual dollars (on payroll). That's below average.

It was essentially penny pinching that kept them from re-signing Berry.

IMHO Shanahan made too many mistakes with signing bad FAs and this forced him to make additional mistakes letting Pryce and Berry and other good defensive players go. But again, JMHO.

24champ
06-06-2011, 01:38 PM
Sad to see Bowlen fall from being one of the top owners to being a middle tier owner in the league. He's just not that involved anymore, and he states that he spends most of his time in Hawaii. I don't have much faith in the Xanders, Elway, Ellis crew bringing this franchise back into the playoffs/respectability.

Hate to say it, but I am looking forward to seeing someone buying the team and rejuvenates the Broncos. It can't be worse than the last 4 years of ineptitude. There's plenty of billionaires in Colorado that would love to purchase the Broncos.

alkemical
06-06-2011, 01:39 PM
Sad to see Bowlen fall from being one of the top owners to being a middle tier owner in the league. He's just not that involved anymore, and he states that he spends most of his time in Hawaii. I don't have much faith in the Xanders, Elway, Ellis crew bringing this franchise back into the playoffs/respectability.

Hate to say it, but I am looking forward to seeing someone buying the team and rejuvenates the Broncos. It can't be worse than the last 4 years of ineptitude. There's plenty of billionaires in Colorado that would love to purchase the Broncos.

What makes you have little faith in the front office?

I'm just curious.

Cito Pelon
06-06-2011, 01:39 PM
Bertrand Berry.

Next.

That was a good one. He was good for Denver. Then because of the salary cap Shanny let him go in FA in 2004

broncocalijohn
06-06-2011, 01:41 PM
In no particular order

1. Dan Snyder
2. Jerry Jones
3. Al Davis
4. Mike Brown
5. Denise DeBartolo York
6. Bill Bidwell
7. Jerry Richardson

That's more or less it.


Only quoting you because you are on a nice hate streak against Bowlen for awhile now. When no one thought he would even think it, he canned Shanahan based on mediocrisy and Shanny's decision to need to run everything including not canning his DC for running the defense into the ground. He also put money aside and canned one of the worst coaches ever in McDaniels. How many owners would try to stretch it out and sacrifice losses for saving money? Not Pat! He wants to win and not riding a sunken ship was not an option regardless of guaranteed pay. IMO, he is back on the top and wants to make sure no one is running his franchise into the ground. He hasn't been perfect and made errors but he tries to correct those and make right. Are we slamming Bowlen between 2000-2008/9 or now? You= hater!

24champ
06-06-2011, 01:42 PM
What makes you have little faith in the front office?

I'm just curious.

For starters, inexperience. John Elway has zero in that department. Xanders was a contracts/cap guy that was brought on board by Ellis.

Beantown Bronco
06-06-2011, 01:42 PM
That was a good one. He was good for Denver. Then because of the salary cap Shanny let him go in FA in 2004

If he was spending all he could and if the salary cap was the only reason he wasn't spending more, then why were 17 other owners able to spend more?

Pick Six
06-06-2011, 01:51 PM
I don't think anyone is trashing Fox. I'm very happy with the choice but he certainly wasn't considered "the best" candidate largely because Carolina was so bad last year.

Using the criteria I named, I actually think he WAS the best candidate available. I certainly didn't want a college coach...

tsiguy96
06-06-2011, 01:55 PM
For starters, inexperience. John Elway has zero in that department. Xanders was a contracts/cap guy that was brought on board by Ellis.

ive posted his background atleast 5 times on this forum so im not gonna bother doing it again, but this simply isnt true. think what you want about xanders as a GM right now, but dont try to refute his background just to prove your point.

ozomulsion
06-06-2011, 02:10 PM
He didn't make just "a few mistakes". From 2000-2009, Denver averaged 18.75 in the league in terms of spending actual dollars (on payroll). That's below average. Yet, the old man had the audacity to fire Shanahan for essentially .500 football when .500 football was actually an over-performance compared with the financial investment that was made. If Bowlen was insistent on having the DC replaced, he could have fired him through his inherent authority as owner. Instead, he panicked because there was a very bad ending to the season.

His "mistakes" weren't merely mistakes but outright lies to the fanbase. First, he said Jay would be the man and wouldn't be traded, yet that didn't happen. Then, he told fans that we would have a real GM-Coach division of power (which was something BTW, the fans wanted and he recognized), but that too didn't come true. Not only did Bowlen repay the decade-plus good service that Jim Goodman provided him with a pink slip, but he reverted exactly back to what he said he was going to avoid by making the coach the only guy with power. And McDaniels was not ready to have such power and probably should never have had it at any point, even if he was successful. Bowlen was nowhere to be seen when his coach starting scheming to trade away the franchise QB and we saw that Bowlen allowed his thugs to start leaking drinking stories about Jay when the team was getting killed PR-wise in order to stem the tide. Perhaps if people leaked his own problems in that regard he'd see how hurtful that would be. Then, in the greatest crisis we've had in decades, Bowlen slithered away like a coward, allowing the principals to get into a perpetual dick measuring contest. Bowlen claimed to want to craft a detente and in fact he would have been the only one who could do it, but he apparently decided he had more important things to do than to meet with Jay when he came to the facility the only time during the crisis. Then, your precious owner had the audacity to cry crocodile tears that his calls weren't being returned. Get off your ****ing ass old man and walk 200 feet to the other room if you want to talk to the guy, he's right ****ing there.

Bowlen had an amazing lack of common sense and allowed himself to get completely hoodwinked by snakes like Joe Ellis. He did nothing while this team burned. He did nothing as this team went to hell in a handbasket, except hide behind others and let them speak for him. Then, after the disaster of 2010, we made our voices clear that we wanted someone legitimately qualified to run things as a true GM and he went out and hired Elway, who had no real experience for the position. It's almost as if he was insulting the intelligence of his fanbase. "I don't care what you think......here's a shiny toy, look its John Elway, its all better". Bowlen is a shell of his former self and our franchise has suffered greatly because of it.

Don't believe me? Look at our franchise, look at how we are regarded. Why do you think THREE coaches declined the oppurtunity to be interviewed. It was widely acknowledged that the "finalists" for our position weren't exactly the cream of the crop. 10 years ago, people would have killed for this job. Now....we are forced to settle. Why do you think that is? Is the whole league wrong in its evaluation of the desireability of being part of our franchise?

This falls squarely in Bowlen's lap. This is the change he wanted. I hope he's happy with the bed he's made. He's not even within shouting distance of being an average owner, currently.

But go on...keep pretending that he just "made a mistake".

Great post! When I read stuff like this it
gives me the warm tingles :P You're able to put
my exact thoughts into writing better than I
can.

TheReverend
06-06-2011, 02:18 PM
Only quoting you because you are on a nice hate streak against Bowlen for awhile now. When no one thought he would even think it, he canned Shanahan based on mediocrisy and Shanny's decision to need to run everything including not canning his DC for running the defense into the ground. He also put money aside and canned one of the worst coaches ever in McDaniels. How many owners would try to stretch it out and sacrifice losses for saving money? Not Pat! He wants to win and not riding a sunken ship was not an option regardless of guaranteed pay. IMO, he is back on the top and wants to make sure no one is running his franchise into the ground. He hasn't been perfect and made errors but he tries to correct those and make right. Are we slamming Bowlen between 2000-2008/9 or now? You= hater!

Terrible post as usual.

You don't argue any of his examples and, in fact, just make contrary conclusions based on evidence to the contrary that he posted.

...but what do you expect from an idiot? Please go.

Kaylore
06-06-2011, 02:18 PM
Sorry SoCal. You're wrong.

Shanny had Carte Blanche to sign whoever he wanted. And he did! The problem is they were Darrell Gardners and Niko Koutovedes' while we let the Bertrand Berry's walk.

There is no evidence that Bowlen is the reason our average salary over a ten year period isn't higher. At no time ever has Bowlen told Shanahan no to a signing of any kind. He built him a new facility, remodeled it several times, and got his stadium. There are no reports from any reporter, even the predator wench at Fox, that Bowlen nickle and dimed Shanahan and the front office. NONE.

SoCal, you're butt hurt Bowlen fired Shanahan and are pretending all the failures of Shanahan over the last decade are Pat's fault so you won't have to admit Shanahan was flawed. It also probably makes it easier to hate Bowlen if in your mind it's more than just firing your idol, but instead these imagined problems you've ret-coned.

broncocalijohn
06-06-2011, 02:32 PM
Terrible post as usual.

You don't argue any of his examples and, in fact, just make contrary conclusions based on evidence to the contrary that he posted.

...but what do you expect from an idiot? Please go.

I am talking about now. Is your opinion fact? Is he really on top as I say? No, there are better owners right now that have been proven winners now and not in the past. I should have stated he is working his way back to the top. I do say he is correcting his wrongs. You don't agree? Without us being able to dive into the free agency market, we have no idea how we will go but with what I have seen, I will put my opinion out there that he is improving this team from Shanny's tenure. You are a Shanny blowhard and will side with him and be against Bowlen. You are so full of **** with our "battle". Why don't you tell us how George FOster wasnt a bust because he was a starter for over a year. One neg rep from Rev since his pos rep to me from April. Still like the balance.

BUUUUT: As Shanny needed to go, McDaniels have probably made this team worst. That is on the coaches and not the owner. Hiring McDaniels now looks to be a huge mistake. Firing him early was not.

24champ
06-06-2011, 02:33 PM
ive posted his background atleast 5 times on this forum so im not gonna bother doing it again, but this simply isnt true. think what you want about xanders as a GM right now, but dont try to refute his background just to prove your point.

He provided zero input in player evaluations when Shanny was coach and also under McDaniels. Now we're led to believe he is the next Ozzie Newsome? :spit:

TheReverend
06-06-2011, 02:59 PM
I am talking about now. Is your opinion fact? Is he really on top as I say? No, there are better owners right now that have been proven winners now and not in the past. I should have stated he is working his way back to the top. I do say he is correcting his wrongs. You don't agree? Without us being able to dive into the free agency market, we have no idea how we will go but with what I have seen, I will put my opinion out there that he is improving this team from Shanny's tenure. You are a Shanny blowhard and will side with him and be against Bowlen. You are so full of **** with our "battle". Why don't you tell us how George FOster wasnt a bust because he was a starter for over a year. One neg rep from Rev since his pos rep to me from April. Still like the balance.

BUUUUT: As Shanny needed to go, McDaniels have probably made this team worst. That is on the coaches and not the owner. Hiring McDaniels now looks to be a huge mistake. Firing him early was not.

lol what are you even talking about?

You didn't even bother to read SoCal's post did you?

I like how incensed you get with these absurd random ass tangent rants, that come complete with edits, though.

TheReverend
06-06-2011, 03:02 PM
He provided zero input in player evaluations when Shanny was coach and also under McDaniels. Now we're led to believe he is the next Ozzie Newsome? :spit:

Lol this

The funny thing is, he CLAIMED he had input when McDaniels was around AND raved about their working relationship.

Then after Josh gets fired he says, "OMG he wouldn't let me do anything!"

...What?

broncocalijohn
06-06-2011, 03:20 PM
lol what are you even talking about?

You didn't even bother to read SoCal's post did you?

I like how incensed you get with these absurd random ass tangent rants, that come complete with edits, though.

I only quoted his posts based on his hatred of Pat and of course his ego love of Shanny. I did read it and in that post had some opinions in there especially on Cutler. I liked the Goodmans too but I am not going to go back on Bowlen when I think he knows he screwed up on some things and is correcting it. Sure it sucks we have to all be part of this horrible time during their last 30 years of good football. My posting in this thread was not based on picking one person, disecting everything in it and telling my opinion. Call me an optomist for when we are going to start playing some football. Maybe it is the revamped FO and coach or the draft but I won't whine about the past on Pat. I will let SoCal and you do that for us. My post in a nut shell was Pat is correcting his wrongs. Never said he wasn't wrong on items and I pointed it out. Is Bowlen the worst owner because we no longer have Cutler? Many here are happy he is no longer a Broncos QB.
As for my rants, calling your personality out on one, awesome, thread day has turned you into one, big crybaby that can't handle a little ribbing of yourself. Funny how it was the thought of your massive and proud ego being showed off that turned your posts to denile because that same ego was being bruised.

Shananahan
06-06-2011, 03:21 PM
There's plenty of billionaires in Colorado that would love to purchase the Broncos.
I'm not calling you a liar or anything, but this seems like a healthy stretch.

24champ
06-06-2011, 03:22 PM
Lol this

The funny thing is, he CLAIMED he had input when McDaniels was around AND raved about their working relationship.

Then after Josh gets fired he says, "OMG he wouldn't let me do anything!"

...What?

Good point, while he doesn't seem like much of a talent evaluator to me, I can't blame him for trying to save his job. He got pushed aside by Shanahan and McDaniels because he has no cred when it comes to evaluating talent.

While with the Falcons in 1994, Herock hired Xanders primarily to work with the salary cap. When asked about Xanders in his new position, Herock praised his football background but added: "Brian's never scouted on the road. He doesn't have those experiences going on the road, being at the practices, getting in there and getting to know guys. That's his challenge. He knows the cap, he understands the cap and he knows the technology that's used now to get the job done. His big thing will be to make the call on whether a guy can play or not and that now he has to know it all.

"He has to be on target, and he's got to know everything -- free agency, the draft, the top player in Canada, what you're going to do with the developmental squad, all of it. You have to know what the hell is going on, and just being astute, just knowing the technology can't save you. You have to find players, it's that simple."

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/jim_trotter/04/03/cutler/index.html#ixzz1OX67k2Jl


TSIguy can shut the **** up.

24champ
06-06-2011, 03:28 PM
I'm not calling you a liar or anything, but this seems like a healthy stretch.

http://www.forbes.com/wealth/billionaires/list?state=Colorado&industry=-1&country=225

24champ
06-06-2011, 03:30 PM
Maybe it is the revamped FO

What was revamped in the FO? They get new wallpaper in the offices? Fill me in on that one, please.

broncocalijohn
06-06-2011, 03:33 PM
What was revamped in the FO? They get new wallpaper in the offices? Fill me in on that one, please.

Im including the coach who has a big say in the draft and free agency. Add John Elway in the FO too. I know you don't like the pick of him doesn't mean he will be a negative. Xanders has a knack for getting the best pizza available in a 30 minute notice.

cutthemdown
06-06-2011, 05:36 PM
For starters, inexperience. John Elway has zero in that department. Xanders was a contracts/cap guy that was brought on board by Ellis.

The one hope is Elway has done well at other things. Football, car dealerships, restaurants etc etc. I think he is pretty smart in things football (arena exp) smarts. I said after yr I thought the worst play on the team came from the safety spot and the linebackers not making plays in the holes. Not ever. Even when blockers held up some FB would just destroy DJ or Haggan, make a move on an out of position safety and go for 20 more yrds.

The fact Elway also though that as evidence by draft has me feeling pretty good. Get Doom back, get miller coming off the other side, maybe these safetys can start, and we might not be that crappy on defense. We might even make some big plays with that group IMO.

gunns
06-06-2011, 06:05 PM
Really SoCal's:

From 2000-2009, Denver averaged 18.75 in the league in terms of spending actual dollars (on payroll). That's below average.

It was essentially penny pinching that kept them from re-signing Berry.

I'm still calling BS on that. You can have average over 10 years and have only 4 years that bring that average down. Too many variables to see to make that a fact about Berry. I'm not necessarily sticking up for Bowlen but Shanahan was a big part of that 10 year collapsel

24champ
06-06-2011, 06:07 PM
The one hope is Elway has done well at other things. Football, car dealerships, restaurants etc etc. I think he is pretty smart in things football (arena exp) smarts.

It's different running a car dealership than running a football team and trying to fill in 50 something spots on the team. He wasn't groomed for the position. Arena football is nowhere in the same league as the NFL. He was a great player, one of the all-time greats but that does not mean he has what it takes to lead this team out of the basement of the NFL.

We've seen many greats like Gretzky (Coyotes), Jordan (Wizards) and NFL Stars like Matt Millen (Lions) and Marino (Dolphins) fall on their faces. In each case, they were PR stunts for the most part. We can laugh at how dumb Matt Millen was with the Lions but care to guess how much experience he had in the front office prior to taking the Lions job? How much experience did Michael Jordan have prior to running the Wizards?

On the flip side, you see Ozzie Newsome who had ton of experience before becoming a GM. Same for Jerry West, one of the best GMs ever in the NBA. Most successful GMs have spent years learning the business before running their own team.


Those former players that have been very successful have an extensive background in the Front Office.


The fact Elway also though that as evidence by draft has me feeling pretty good. Get Doom back, get miller coming off the other side, maybe these safetys can start, and we might not be that crappy on defense. We might even make some big plays with that group IMO.

We're a long ways from being a good defense. With a new Coaching staff, we haven't had any minicamps, we're behind in trying to install schemes. The honemoon for John Fox is going to be pretty quick because he is coming in with a spotty record, and one that was worse than McDaniels in the last two seasons.

tsiguy96
06-06-2011, 06:15 PM
Good point, while he doesn't seem like much of a talent evaluator to me, I can't blame him for trying to save his job. He got pushed aside by Shanahan and McDaniels because he has no cred when it comes to evaluating talent.



TSIguy can shut the **** up.

way to put it in to context. he was in coaching for the first several years of his coaching life, starting under reeves. hes been in the NFL since his early 20s, and in hte early 90 he got his first GM job. yet hes supposed to be a master GM his first year on the job? got it.

read his entire bio instead of making biased remarks. if you still hate him, fine. dont discredit his past just to try and prove your point.

gunns
06-06-2011, 06:31 PM
It's different running a car dealership than running a football team and trying to fill in 50 something spots on the team. He wasn't groomed for the position. Arena football is nowhere in the same league as the NFL. He was a great player, one of the all-time greats but that does not mean he has what it takes to lead this team out of the basement of the NFL.

We've seen many greats like Gretzky (Coyotes), Jordan (Wizards) and NFL Stars like Matt Millen (Lions) and Marino (Dolphins) fall on their faces. In each case, they were PR stunts for the most part. We can laugh at how dumb Matt Millen was with the Lions but care to guess how much experience he had in the front office prior to taking the Lions job? How much experience did Michael Jordan have prior to running the Wizards?

On the flip side, you see Ozzie Newsome who had ton of experience before becoming a GM. Same for Jerry West, one of the best GMs ever in the NBA. Most successful GMs have spent years learning the business before running their own team.


Those former players that have been very successful have an extensive background in the Front Office.




We're a long ways from being a good defense. With a new Coaching staff, we haven't had any minicamps, we're behind in trying to install schemes. The honemoon for John Fox is going to be pretty quick because he is coming in with a spotty record, and one that was worse than McDaniels in the last two seasons.

I understand the concern about Elway, what I don't understand is throwing him under the bus before he's actually ****ed it up.

tsiguy96
06-06-2011, 06:39 PM
I understand the concern about Elway, what I don't understand is throwing him under the bus before he's actually ****ed it up.

hes throwing everyone under the bus, even those not associated with mcdaniels. why stop with elway?

24champ
06-06-2011, 06:44 PM
way to put it in to context. he was in coaching for the first 8-10 years of his life, starting under reeves. hes been in the NFL since his early 20s, and in hte early 90s he got his first GM job. yet hes supposed to be a master GM his first year on the job? got it.

Prior to being named GM when the Goodman's left. Here's an ESPN blurb.

Xanders, who negotiated some of Denver's bigger contracts last season, is now in charge of all player personnel issues, including college scouting, pro personnel and labor negotiations with the Broncos.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3903601

So there you have it, he was hired originally by Ellis to do contracts for the Broncos as that was his task. Same article mentions that he was a Custodian for the Falcons sports complex and moved up doing various work. Not much time spent on player evaluations. He's simply a yes man working for Elway and Ellis. Nothing more, and when the time comes, he will be the perfect scapegoat.

ozomulsion
06-06-2011, 06:53 PM
Prior to being named GM when the Goodman's left. Here's an ESPN blurb.



http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3903601

So there you have it, he was hired originally by Ellis to do contracts for the Broncos as that was his task. Same article mentions that he was a Custodian for the Falcons sports complex and moved up doing various work. Not much time spent on player evaluations. He's simply a yes man working for Elway and Ellis. Nothing more, and when the time comes, he will be the perfect scapegoat.

I'm pretty sure you just won.

That's one more discussion than you ever won
against me :boxing:

24champ
06-06-2011, 07:02 PM
I understand the concern about Elway, what I don't understand is throwing him under the bus before he's actually ****ed it up.

Not throwing him under the bus, but lets not forget that we are coming off a 4-12 season. It's an enormous task for anyone, let alone Elway to fix.

I would have expected the Broncos, particularly Bowlen, to take a serious look at this franchise and restructure it. He didn't do it, and it was a perfect time to do so. He chose the lazy way, hired Elway for PR purposes and did no interviews for the General Manager position and retained Xanders.

baja
06-06-2011, 07:06 PM
I am talking about now. Is your opinion fact? Is he really on top as I say? No, there are better owners right now that have been proven winners now and not in the past. I should have stated he is working his way back to the top. I do say he is correcting his wrongs. You don't agree? Without us being able to dive into the free agency market, we have no idea how we will go but with what I have seen, I will put my opinion out there that he is improving this team from Shanny's tenure. You are a Shanny blowhard and will side with him and be against Bowlen. You are so full of **** with our "battle". Why don't you tell us how George FOster wasnt a bust because he was a starter for over a year. One neg rep from Rev since his pos rep to me from April. Still like the balance.

BUUUUT: As Shanny needed to go, McDaniels have probably made this team worst. That is on the coaches and not the owner. Hiring McDaniels now looks to be a huge mistake. Firing him early was not.

Not to trouble yourself soon he will have you on ignore in fact it would not surprise me if he ends up having 3/4 of the board on iggy, you see he can only tolerate posters that he believes are almost as smart as himself. Eventually he will have everyone on iggy because he truly thinks nobody is any where near as smart as he is, then he will leave..

tsiguy96
06-06-2011, 07:09 PM
Prior to being named GM when the Goodman's left. Here's an ESPN blurb.



http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3903601

So there you have it, he was hired originally by Ellis to do contracts for the Broncos as that was his task. Same article mentions that he was a Custodian for the Falcons sports complex and moved up doing various work. Not much time spent on player evaluations. He's simply a yes man working for Elway and Ellis. Nothing more, and when the time comes, he will be the perfect scapegoat.

so you copy a single quote that he negotiated contracts, and immediately his entire background, from the early 90s til late 2000s in the NFL, is no longer relevant? he moved up like every person whos ever had a job in NFL (besides ben mcdaniels).

you are grasping at straws to support your hatred for xanders, without understanding his entire history. he was hired as assistant GM an cap guy for denver, yes. hes been promoted to GM of this team since 2008.

he has extensive experience in both pro and nfl scouting through almost 20 years of coaching and player evaluation at every level, trying to just ignore that because you hate him is silly. it doesnt bother me if you just hate the guy, but atleast have a logical justification for doing so (like you hate his public speaking).

and before you throw me in the omg homer group (which you will do inevitably) im not saying he is or will be a great GM. just saying he deserves respect for what hes done and atleast a chance to run the show as head of player personnel. if its a 1 or 2 year "on the job interview" so be it.

24champ
06-06-2011, 07:19 PM
so you copy a single quote that he negotiated contracts, and immediately his entire background, from the early 90s til late 2000s in the NFL, is no longer relevant? he moved up like every person whos ever had a job in NFL (besides ben mcdaniels).

you are grasping at straws to support your hatred for xanders, without understanding his entire history. he was hired as assistant GM an cap guy for denver, yes. hes been promoted to GM of this team since 2008.

he has extensive experience in both pro and nfl scouting through almost 20 years of coaching and player evaluation at every level, trying to just ignore that because you hate him is silly.

His primary expertise was in contracts. Maybe you just skipped over what Herock, who hired and worked with Xanders, said.

When asked about Xanders in his new position, Herock praised his football background but added: "Brian's never scouted on the road. He doesn't have those experiences going on the road, being at the practices, getting in there and getting to know guys.

He's been GM for a few years now, and he's had two Head Coaches in a row that didn't want or heed his advice on player evaluations. You think that's just a coincidence?

Bronco Yoda
06-06-2011, 07:21 PM
I still love you Pat. That pimp coat, that wealthy smile, bringing back the Orange. You complete me!

worm
06-06-2011, 07:23 PM
Not throwing him under the bus, but lets not forget that we are coming off a 4-12 season. It's an enormous task for anyone, let alone Elway to fix.

I would have expected the Broncos, particularly Bowlen, to take a serious look at this franchise and restructure it. He didn't do it, and it was a perfect time to do so. He chose the lazy way, hired Elway for PR purposes and did no interviews for the General Manager position and retained Xanders.

I agree about not opening up the GM position to interviews. Very dumb. I wouldn't be surprised if there was more to the story as to why that was the case. Something like Xanders 'loyalty' being rewarded for tattling on Josh during Spygate II.

Besides all that crap...if you remove the Elway name or any job prereqs and just look at what has been accomplished by the newly appointed VP of Football Operations. There has been a dramatic increase in; transparency of the FO, communication with fans and stability to the off-season after unbridled chaos.

I am not sure how you can have anything but an A grade for what the leader of Football Operations has done to date. I think we are finally heading in the right direction.

Hogan11
06-07-2011, 01:18 AM
He caved for ditching the trademark Orange for the totally cliched cyborg navy blue.

That alone is unforgiveable in my book

Agamemnon
06-07-2011, 02:02 AM
Ummmm, I've never been a leader of the "I wish we still had Shanny" camp and personally don't like Cutler, but to claim we wouldn't have been better off the last two years with them is borderline insane. You really think we would've had the #2 overall pick this year WITH them? Please.

We probably wouldn't have imploded and gone 4-12 like we did, but in my mind that doesn't mean we'd actually be better off. Posting mediocre to slightly bad records while having 0% chance of actually contending doesn't seem better to me.

TheReverend
06-07-2011, 07:32 AM
I only quoted his posts based on his hatred of Pat and of course his ego love of Shanny. I did read it and in that post had some opinions in there especially on Cutler. I liked the Goodmans too but I am not going to go back on Bowlen when I think he knows he screwed up on some things and is correcting it. Sure it sucks we have to all be part of this horrible time during their last 30 years of good football. My posting in this thread was not based on picking one person, disecting everything in it and telling my opinion. Call me an optomist for when we are going to start playing some football. Maybe it is the revamped FO and coach or the draft but I won't whine about the past on Pat. I will let SoCal and you do that for us. My post in a nut shell was Pat is correcting his wrongs. Never said he wasn't wrong on items and I pointed it out. Is Bowlen the worst owner because we no longer have Cutler? Many here are happy he is no longer a Broncos QB.
As for my rants, calling your personality out on one, awesome, thread day has turned you into one, big crybaby that can't handle a little ribbing of yourself. Funny how it was the thought of your massive and proud ego being showed off that turned your posts to denile because that same ego was being bruised.

Good lord, you're an idiot.

There are ZERO comprehensive thought processes in that post. Quite frankly, I'm not even sure what half your sentences are even TRYING to say... for example:

"I did read it and in that post had some opinions in there especially on Cutler."

What?

And what is "ego love"? Can you explain that?

And secondly, you're knocking him for knocking Bowlen? When he clearly laid out his reasons? IN A ****ING THREAD CALLED "LIST THE OWNERS YOU THINK ARE WORSE THAN THE CURRENT PAT BOWLEN" THAT HE DIDN'T EVEN START?

And then somehow you bring that back to me calling me a "crybaby" (can you explain that one Hilarious!) and your insecurities with a 2 year old thread that YOU keep bringing up over and over?

Get bent. You have serious issues.

Beantown Bronco
06-07-2011, 07:32 AM
We probably wouldn't have imploded and gone 4-12 like we did, but in my mind that doesn't mean we'd actually be better off. Posting mediocre to slightly bad records while having 0% chance of actually contending doesn't seem better to me.

By definition, 8-8/9-7 is better than 4-12.
By definition, being in playoff contention in week 17 is better than being eliminated in week 10.

Nobody was truly happy at .500, but there's simply no way to argue that a 4-12 team is "better off" than a team that consistently had a better record than a team that made the playoffs last year. We may not have been SB favorites, but we were always in the mix at the end.

SoCalBronco
06-08-2011, 10:05 PM
I'm still calling BS on that. You can have average over 10 years and have only 4 years that bring that average down. Too many variables to see to make that a fact about Berry. I'm not necessarily sticking up for Bowlen but Shanahan was a big part of that 10 year collapsel

I want to go through this year by year just to show you that you are wrong on this. I know Khan and Cito have also made a similar argument, i.e., that there's tons of dead money there from a bunch of massive years which force a couple years of near the bottom spending to mess up the average.

That's NOT what the facts bear out, here. As you will see momentarily, there were only TWO YEARS from 2000-2008 (a NINE year period) where we were at/near the top of the league in actual spending (i.e. the big bonuses that went to the busts). No one is disputing that Shanny had some blame in the mess and that he gave out some bad contracts over this time period. That's not the issue. The issue is whether one can reasonably explain the Broncos spending patterns by saying that the dead money distorted it and the answer is largely no.

If dead money was truly the cause here, we would expect to see roughly a 1:1 ratio between years that were very high in actual spending vs. years that were very low in spending to balance it out (Year 1 Rank # 1, Year 2 Rank # 25)....or at the least, we would see a situation where there are slowly declining rankings to make up for the initial high ranking as the proration of bonuses take their effect, i.e. Year 1 we spend # 2, then year 2 we would spend # 10, year 3 # 16. That I would understand. However, when you have a situation where you have 1 really high year and then the next 3 years its basically near the bottom, you can't say that's dead money. It should not take 3 years of basically no spending to balance out the first year where you gave out a ton of bonus money. Why do I say that? Because if the situation was really that bad where what we did in Year 1 would take 3-4 years to fix, we would have faced the tidal wave that the 49ers and Titans faced in terms of ultimate cap destruction, where they had to completely destroy the roster and that NEVER HAPPENED TO DENVER. EVER. We had some issues some years with dead money (and I know that when Josh cut alot of Shanny guys in 09 that created a good deal of dead money, I'm not saying we haven't had years where dead money has created some problems, but its not anywhere near a complete explanation of the low spending patterns), but nowhere near what you would have to have to justify the numbers.

Oh and BTW, I was wrong earlier, the spending average was EVEN WORSE than I thought before. It was not 18.75, it is actually 19.22 during Shanny's tenure in the past decade.

Now I want you to look at these patterns below. They will show that you cannot explain this away with dead money:

I'm going to break it up into two areas (one for each half of the decade with a comment between, but you can look at it on the whole too):

2000 50,239,400. 26TH OVERALL
2001 102,582.620 1ST OVERALL
2002 62,563,073 19TH OVERALL
2003 64,826,919 29TH OVERALL
2004 72,669,599 28TH OVERALL

Comment: Does it really take 3 year of absolute crap spending AND 1 below average year to make up for a SINGLE year at No. 1? Really? This is not remotely close to a 1:1 ratio, so I don't want to hear the dead money bull****. There's no balancing here at all from year to year. .

2005 94,840,453 6TH OVERALL
2006 94,392,712 22ND OVERALL
2007 102,152,343 15TH OVERALL
2008 95,599,778 27TH OVERALL

Comment: Again, the same pattern. One good spending year and then two years of crap and one year in the middle. And the top spending year was only at No. 6. If you balance that out for the dead money/proration with the 27th overall, that's fine, but what about the 22nd and 15th, how is that explained.

I think people are losing the forest for the trees here. They think well we've had some busts so that means we must have spent tons. We did have some busts, but that doesnt mean we spent tons (we may have spent good money on them, but it doesnt mean we didn't make up for it with bargains on the rest of hte roster to make the overall spending not that bad). The rest of the rosters were made up with bargain basements who overperformed (not great mind you, but good in relation to their investment, i.e. the Kelly Herndons, the Mario Fetafehi's, the Lenny Walls etc.).

This is the main problem with the whole dead money created the statistics argument. For that to be true, you have to have a bunch of years at the top. We don't. We only had TWO big years out of NINE. Two years CANNOT artificially explain the low spending for the other SEVEN years due to cap balancing and dead money, as again, if they were really that bad, we would have hit the tidal wave.

Shananahan
06-08-2011, 11:45 PM
I'm not saying you're wrong, SoCal, but could you show me some kind of article that proves the correlation between spending the most and being the best? I mean doesn't your argument make the assumption that in those down years there were times Pat should have been spending but chose not to, or something? Do you have links and stuff for those instances?

I mean I get what you're saying and you clearly are doing the homework and research I don't feel like devoting time to, but it seems to me that some of your premise might be a little flawed. Surely pure spending cannot be the best way to determine the quality of an owner.

NFLBRONCO
06-09-2011, 12:05 AM
He didn't make just "a few mistakes". From 2000-2009, Denver averaged 18.75 in the league in terms of spending actual dollars (on payroll). That's below average. Yet, the old man had the audacity to fire Shanahan for essentially .500 football when .500 football was actually an over-performance compared with the financial investment that was made. If Bowlen was insistent on having the DC replaced, he could have fired him through his inherent authority as owner. Instead, he panicked because there was a very bad ending to the season.

His "mistakes" weren't merely mistakes but outright lies to the fanbase. First, he said Jay would be the man and wouldn't be traded, yet that didn't happen. Then, he told fans that we would have a real GM-Coach division of power (which was something BTW, the fans wanted and he recognized), but that too didn't come true. Not only did Bowlen repay the decade-plus good service that Jim Goodman provided him with a pink slip, but he reverted exactly back to what he said he was going to avoid by making the coach the only guy with power. And McDaniels was not ready to have such power and probably should never have had it at any point, even if he was successful. Bowlen was nowhere to be seen when his coach starting scheming to trade away the franchise QB and we saw that Bowlen allowed his thugs to start leaking drinking stories about Jay when the team was getting killed PR-wise in order to stem the tide. Perhaps if people leaked his own problems in that regard he'd see how hurtful that would be. Then, in the greatest crisis we've had in decades, Bowlen slithered away like a coward, allowing the principals to get into a perpetual dick measuring contest. Bowlen claimed to want to craft a detente and in fact he would have been the only one who could do it, but he apparently decided he had more important things to do than to meet with Jay when he came to the facility the only time during the crisis. Then, your precious owner had the audacity to cry crocodile tears that his calls weren't being returned. Get off your ****ing ass old man and walk 200 feet to the other room if you want to talk to the guy, he's right ****ing there.

Bowlen had an amazing lack of common sense and allowed himself to get completely hoodwinked by snakes like Joe Ellis. He did nothing while this team burned. He did nothing as this team went to hell in a handbasket, except hide behind others and let them speak for him. Then, after the disaster of 2010, we made our voices clear that we wanted someone legitimately qualified to run things as a true GM and he went out and hired Elway, who had no real experience for the position. It's almost as if he was insulting the intelligence of his fanbase. "I don't care what you think......here's a shiny toy, look its John Elway, its all better". Bowlen is a shell of his former self and our franchise has suffered greatly because of it.

Don't believe me? Look at our franchise, look at how we are regarded. Why do you think THREE coaches declined the oppurtunity to be interviewed. It was widely acknowledged that the "finalists" for our position weren't exactly the cream of the crop. 10 years ago, people would have killed for this job. Now....we are forced to settle. Why do you think that is? Is the whole league wrong in its evaluation of the desireability of being part of our franchise?

This falls squarely in Bowlen's lap. This is the change he wanted. I hope he's happy with the bed he's made. He's not even within shouting distance of being an average owner, currently.

But go on...keep pretending that he just "made a mistake".

I have to agree with this Bowlen deserves on the list right now. Can he redeem himself back on the great owner list sure. I do wonder about his health to make clear decisions.

I like the Elway move for now it was a great PR move that was and is needed. Time will tell if he can do enough to make us a SB contender.

Elway hired the right guy but, was scared he had Dennison a close second umm ugh.

Things I don't agree with

Having Joe Ellis running team
Not getting a new fresh GM

Denver needs a blockbuster move to restore my faith in FO totally: I'm talking Andrew Luck type move.

SoCalBronco
06-09-2011, 12:17 AM
I'm not saying you're wrong, SoCal, but could you show me some kind of article that proves the correlation between spending the most and being the best? I mean doesn't your argument make the assumption that in those down years there were times Pat should have been spending but chose not to, or something? Do you have links and stuff for those instances?

I mean I get what you're saying and you clearly are doing the homework and research I don't feel like devoting time to, but it seems to me that some of your premise might be a little flawed. Surely pure spending cannot be the best way to determine the quality of an owner.

I'm not saying that there's a direct absolute correlation between spending the most and being the best (certainly there are some owners, such as Snyder who have shown that's not the case), but I am saying the year by year statistics and rankings of payroll I posted above in Post 99 seem to suggest that there was a relatively restrictive budget imposed which was probably a substantial factor in our record (i.e. what's there cannot be explained simply by dead money, although we did have some of that from time to time).

And yes, my argument does contain the assumption that there were years there where maybe we should have spent a little more and that this would have likely made a difference in our particular situation. Considering that in 2006 and also 2008, one more decent defensive player probably would have been the difference between making playoffs both of those years (since we were just one win away both years). Again, while money is no guarantee, I think one more decent defender would have gotten us that one extra win. Two more decent players (mind you, not great, just ok) in place of two horrible players could well have gotten us more. As such, I think Bowlen does deserve a decent share of the blame for that three year run of .500 football. Again, I'm not saying we didn't have some high priced busts at the same time, but if you look at the overall picture and statistical trends in Post 99, it doesnt exactly paint the picture of a bunch of years where we were at the top of spending forcing us to then spend a bunch of years at the bottom to balance it out. These figures show that even if there was some dead money, we probably had ample capacity to spend some more money to get a couple more decent players. That would have made a difference, we were right there on the edge of the postseason several times.

Shananahan
06-09-2011, 01:04 AM
Yeah, but those are also assumptions and beliefs that can't really be quantified or proven. I'm just saying that it's hard for me to look at how much a guy is spending and determine how well he's doing his job. Wasn't Shanny one of the highest paid coaches in the league for the majority of his time in Denver (deservedly)? I guess I just never got the sense that Bowlen has been pinching pennies enough to be criticized for it; all of my complaints have nothing to do with the financials and everything to do with the front office structure and hiring choices.

Arkie
06-09-2011, 10:37 AM
Look at it this way. Pat Bowlen has 2 SBs in 27 seasons. Ford, Bidwell, Spanos, and Mike Brown have 0 SBs in 133 seasons.

Agamemnon
06-10-2011, 03:32 AM
By definition, 8-8/9-7 is better than 4-12.
By definition, being in playoff contention in week 17 is better than being eliminated in week 10.

Nobody was truly happy at .500, but there's simply no way to argue that a 4-12 team is "better off" than a team that consistently had a better record than a team that made the playoffs last year. We may not have been SB favorites, but we were always in the mix at the end.

By who's definition? As far as I'm concerned unless we are a serious contender for a championship our record doesn't really matter. Shanahan's last season was the most brutal 8-8 season I've ever watched, and after seeing how he wrecked yet another defense in Washington I can't believe anyone misses him.

Blueflame
06-10-2011, 05:44 AM
I really can't believe there are still people that believe we'd be better off right now if we had kept Shanny and Cutler. I mean seriously?

Um...well, seriously, the Broncos were never below six wins per season (and that "worst-record-6 and 10" came in a season in which the injury bug bit the Broncos relentlessly) while Shanahan was HC. I do not believe for an instant that the Broncos would have gone 4-12 if Shanahan had been retained (there is no evidence whatsoever to support the contention that they would have). Oh... did I mention that quite a few of the 10 losses in the '99 season were by 7 points or fewer (meaning the team was still in the game)?

Shananahan
06-10-2011, 06:29 AM
Anybody else think Shanny would have learned to coexist with Nolan?

Man I love redundant, nostalgic hypotheticals and bantered arguments which never end.

Kaylore
06-10-2011, 06:51 AM
Certainly you could make an easy argument that we would be better than we are right now, or were the last two seasons with McDaniels. However I don't think we were going to ever be more than a 8 win team. Which means arguably just our last season would have been better. Our defense would have been just as horrid, though, because Slowick would still be the coordinator. We wouldn't have sucked, but we would have still be mired in mediocrity.

I speak now to SoCal:

The idea that he Bowlen is a bad owner because he doesn't spend as much is a critically flawed argument on three levels.

1. Shanahan hired everyone. There isn't anyone Shanahan couldn't have had if he didn't want to. If you're pissed we didn't spend enough, this is the guy you should be pissed at.

2. It isn't true. We tried to hire a ton of free agents, but the ones we did sucked. Name a decent high-priced free agent Shanahan signed. I can think of Daniel Graham, and he certainly wasn't worth the contract we gave him making him one of the highest paid TE's in the league.

3. Who should we have signed that we didn't? The problem with your argument is it suggests there were other players out there we should have made a play for and did not because Bowlen said there was no money. Free agency isn't what it was in the 90's. Most teams have so much cap they can keep anyone. And with the Franchise tag, there is often little to no movement. Who could we have had? Patrick Kearney? He walked but not because we didn't try and certainly not because Bowlen stopped it. He left because he felt he was more likely to win in Seattle than here in Denver and he ended up being right! So who's fault is it if a free agent leaves because they doubt the team's chances of winning? Not Bowlen's!

Name one free agent we didn't get because we couldn't afford them, and then show me how Bowlen was directly or indirectly responsible. There are none. Again, this "Bowlen is a bad owner because he didn't spend" is a garbage argument. Just come right out and say "Bowlen is a bad owner because he fired Shahanan and traded Cutler and I personally liked both of those people and it hurt my feelings."

Cito Pelon
06-11-2011, 08:54 AM
What I don't get, SoCal, is if we accept your $$$$ figures above, why was it year after year there was constant talk about Denver being right up on the salary cap, having to restructure contracts to get enough spending room to sign some FA's and rookies?

IIRC, there was never any posts about Denver trying to field a team on the cheap. The talk was always about "how can they make some room under the cap to sign some FA's?"

Kaylore
06-11-2011, 10:49 AM
What I don't get, SoCal, is if we accept your $$$$ figures above, why was it year after year there was constant talk about Denver being right up on the salary cap, having to restructure contracts to get enough spending room to sign some FA's and rookies?

IIRC, there was never any posts about Denver trying to field a team on the cheap. The talk was always about "how can they make some room under the cap to sign some FA's?"

The other factor that limited us was how there were a few years our cap was bloated with dead money from signing big free agents and then them leaving the team. I remember when we lost Al Wilson, Plummer and cut a bunch of Browncos we had a crap load of dead money and couldn't sign anyone. Again, this had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Bowlen.