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View Full Version : Brandon Lloyd is the 58th best player in the NFL


Champagne Powder
05-31-2011, 09:45 AM
Clip from the NFL Network Top 100 show:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-top100-2011/09000d5d8200f60d/Top-100-Brandon-Lloyd

Interview on NFL Total Access set:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d8201340e/Lloyd-earns-Top-100-ranking

vancejohnson82
05-31-2011, 09:46 AM
.

I agree with this 100%...rep

gyldenlove
05-31-2011, 10:00 AM
Remarkable story, 1 year ago he would have been ranked 580 or so.

Tombstone RJ
05-31-2011, 10:01 AM
Lloyd was on NFLN last night, he's a good interview and was fun to watch.

vancejohnson82
05-31-2011, 10:02 AM
I actually thought he should have been ranked higher for his performance last year

baja
05-31-2011, 10:12 AM
Thanks Josh...

alkemical
05-31-2011, 10:14 AM
you're welcome

Flex Gunmetal
05-31-2011, 10:31 AM
Is he the 1st bronco on the list?

bronco militia
05-31-2011, 10:46 AM
**** you josh!

Garcia Bronco
05-31-2011, 10:52 AM
He certainly utterly out-performed the dip**** one-man crime wave that Lloyd replaced.

Tombstone RJ
05-31-2011, 02:28 PM
Is he the 1st bronco on the list?

Yep, I think so. I was wondering if any Broncos offensive players made the list and I'm glad to see Lloyd did make the list because he certainly deserves it.

Gcver2ver3
05-31-2011, 02:44 PM
Yep, I think so. I was wondering if any Broncos offensive players made the list and I'm glad to see Lloyd did make the list because he certainly deserves it.

champ didnt crack top 50?...

oh well...

ZachKC
05-31-2011, 02:53 PM
Clip from the NFL Network Top 100 show:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-top100-2011/09000d5d8200f60d/Top-100-Brandon-Lloyd

Interview on NFL Total Access set:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d8201340e/Lloyd-earns-Top-100-ranking

Hey remember when you went under the username Orange Blood and you were trying to convince me Lelie was better than Lloyd?

Those were fun times.

http://orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=2445834#post2445834

TheReverend
05-31-2011, 02:57 PM
Yep, I think so. I was wondering if any Broncos offensive players made the list and I'm glad to see Lloyd did make the list because he certainly deserves it.

Clady might make it...

champ didnt crack top 50?...

oh well...

This was the back 50, not the top.

Champagne Powder
05-31-2011, 03:00 PM
Hey remember when you went under the username Orange Blood and you were trying to convince me Lelie was better than Lloyd?

Those were fun times.

http://orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=2445834#post2445834

You have me mixed up with someone else. Nice try though.

Champagne Powder
05-31-2011, 03:01 PM
champ didnt crack top 50?...

oh well...

Terrell Owens cracked the list in the 90s on lifetime achievement.

I think Champ will be in the top 50 somewhere when they release it.

GoBroncos84
05-31-2011, 03:01 PM
Champ will be on the list somewhere. Would be nice to see Clady. Doom probably won't make it due to his injury last year. Dawkins could have a chance to make the list based on reputation, he is very well respected amongst other players.

ZachKC
05-31-2011, 03:03 PM
You have me mixed up with someone else. Nice try though.

False.

It was fun watching you put your tail between your legs and run away when I finally made the connection in the Worst Posters thread.

vancejohnson82
05-31-2011, 03:05 PM
Champ will be on the list somewhere. Would be nice to see Clady. Doom probably won't make it due to his injury last year. Dawkins could have a chance to make the list based on reputation, he is very well respected amongst other players.

I don't think so....its based on 2011 only

although it was voted by the players.....Dawkins won't make it but Champ may

Clady should definitely be up there

Champagne Powder
05-31-2011, 03:07 PM
False.

It was fun watching you put your tail between your legs and run away when I finally made the connection in the Worst Posters thread.

You can say whatever you want, doesn't make it true.

IP address figures support my claim over yours.

It's Memorial Day ****ing weekend, I don't have time to keep up with all your trolling posts.

ZachKC
05-31-2011, 03:14 PM
You can say whatever you want, doesn't make it true.

IP address figures support my claim over yours.

It's Memorial Day ****ing weekend, I don't have time to keep up with all your trolling posts.

Nobody has confirmed shti with your IP address stalker.

Besides that...

It is Tuesday.

Are you retarded?

TheReverend
05-31-2011, 03:16 PM
Nobody has confirmed shti with your IP address stalker.

Besides that...

It is Tuesday.

Are you retarded?

No one cares.

vancejohnson82
05-31-2011, 03:16 PM
Nobody has confirmed shti with your IP address stalker.

Besides that...

It is Tuesday.

Are you retarded?

Dude, it's Cinco de Mayo, nobody has time for this kind of stuff....

(btw, the Killface avatar is great)

ZachKC
05-31-2011, 03:22 PM
Dude, it's Cinco de Mayo, nobody has time for this kind of stuff....

(btw, the Killface avatar is great)

ROFL!

Champagne Powder
05-31-2011, 03:38 PM
Nobody has confirmed shti with your IP address stalker.

Besides that...

It is Tuesday.

Are you retarded?

Who is the stalker now??? You are the attention whore who has to soil a perfectly good thread about Brandon Lloyd with your own personal agenda.

There hasn't been a post all day long in that other thread. So yes, I was too busy during Memorial Day to keep up with your trolling garbage.

maher_tyler
05-31-2011, 03:51 PM
I'm pretty sure a year or 2 ago, most of us including me, were wondering if he would even make the roster...

ZachKC
05-31-2011, 03:53 PM
Who is the stalker now??? You are the attention whore who has to soil a perfectly good thread about Brandon Lloyd with your own personal agenda.

There hasn't been a post all day long in that other thread. So yes, I was too busy during Memorial Day to keep up with your trolling garbage.

You are still the stalker...you know the one who threatened by father.

You seem to have enough time to keep up with it until you were exposed. ROFL!

BroncoMan4ever
05-31-2011, 03:55 PM
I don't think so....its based on 2011 only

although it was voted by the players.....Dawkins won't make it but Champ may

Clady should definitely be up there

honestly then, if it is ranked on 2011 play, Denver should have no linemen named on this list. your argument on Dawkins not being on the list due to 2011 play should also follow suit for Clady and the rest of our OL.

Champagne Powder
05-31-2011, 03:59 PM
You are still the stalker...you know the one who threatened by father.

You seem to have enough time to keep up with it until you were exposed. ROFL!

Exposed? You can't prove sh!t.

vancejohnson82
05-31-2011, 04:09 PM
honestly then, if it is ranked on 2011 play, Denver should have no linemen named on this list. your argument on Dawkins not being on the list due to 2011 play should also follow suit for Clady and the rest of our OL.

I thought Clady had a pretty decent year...I don't remember Dawkins having a particularly solid performance

Champagne Powder
05-31-2011, 04:23 PM
I thought Clady had a pretty decent year...I don't remember Dawkins having a particularly solid performance

One year after being first-team NFL All-Pro, Clady didn't even garner enough votes to be amongst the top seven OTs in the AFC for the Pro Bowl. This was very surprising considering that offensive linemen tend to get honored the most on reputation versus recent performance.

I think the players knew he wasn't himself last year with the knee injury. Unfortunately, I don't see him cracking the Top 100 list at all.

BroncoMan4ever
05-31-2011, 04:29 PM
I thought Clady had a pretty decent year...I don't remember Dawkins having a particularly solid performance

i look at it like this, the line play as a whole was absolutely terrible. couldn't run the ball at all, and Clady's knee had him playing far below his ability. i am not saying the guy is bad or overrated, but in terms of rankings, his play last season was not top 100 in the league.

Dawkins is hard to judge. he has lost a few steps, but he remains a strong tackler, and a great leader. also, it is likely he would have looked better had our front 7 not been so horrendous. but more than likely he is not seen as top 100 anymore.

Champ is probably the only other Bronco on the list.

vancejohnson82
05-31-2011, 04:37 PM
i look at it like this, the line play as a whole was absolutely terrible. couldn't run the ball at all, and Clady's knee had him playing far below his ability. i am not saying the guy is bad or overrated, but in terms of rankings, his play last season was not top 100 in the league.

Dawkins is hard to judge. he has lost a few steps, but he remains a strong tackler, and a great leader. also, it is likely he would have looked better had our front 7 not been so horrendous. but more than likely he is not seen as top 100 anymore.

Champ is probably the only other Bronco on the list.

thats my feeling....Champ should have been up there, but now that we've broken into the top 50, I'm not so sure he will be there

LRtagger
05-31-2011, 04:40 PM
I like at 3:30 when he says "You cant see me. Did you see that?"

Champagne Powder
05-31-2011, 04:58 PM
thats my feeling....Champ should have been up there, but now that we've broken into the top 50, I'm not so sure he will be there

If TO made the list, Champ is making the list.

TO is not even a top 10 WR in the league anymore. Champ is still a top five corner and is perceived as such.

vancejohnson82
05-31-2011, 05:08 PM
If TO made the list, Champ is making the list.

TO is not even a top 10 WR in the league anymore. Champ is still a top five corner and is perceived as such.

We will see....it's not based off of best in the league right now...it's based off of 2011 season

72 catches
953 yards
9 TDs

puts TO in the top 100 players last year

24champ
05-31-2011, 05:28 PM
If TO made the list, Champ is making the list.

TO is not even a top 10 WR in the league anymore. Champ is still a top five corner and is perceived as such.

Of course, I am a homer, but I believe Champ is still the best CB in the league today, he's been set back by injuries and the revolving door of Defensive Coordinators. I just want to see Champ get a Super Bowl ring (don't we all!), that will definitely make him join the conversation of being in the top 5 all-time CBs.

1. Deion Sanders (NFL DPOY/SB rings)
2. Rod Woodson
3. Ronnie Lott
4. Darrell Green
5. Mel Blount

Champ is close, but needs some postseason success to be on that list.

vancejohnson82
05-31-2011, 05:38 PM
Of course, I am a homer, but I believe Champ is still the best CB in the league today, he's been set back by injuries and the revolving door of Defensive Coordinators. I just want to see Champ get a Super Bowl ring (don't we all!), that will definitely make him join the conversation of being in the top 5 all-time CBs.

1. Deion Sanders (NFL DPOY/SB rings)
2. Rod Woodson
3. Ronnie Lott
4. Darrell Green
5. Mel Blount

Champ is close, but needs some postseason success to be on that list.

Ronnie Lott was a safety I believe

TheReverend
05-31-2011, 05:41 PM
Of course, I am a homer, but I believe Champ is still the best CB in the league today, he's been set back by injuries and the revolving door of Defensive Coordinators. I just want to see Champ get a Super Bowl ring (don't we all!), that will definitely make him join the conversation of being in the top 5 all-time CBs.

1. Deion Sanders (NFL DPOY/SB rings)
2. Rod Woodson
3. Ronnie Lott
4. Darrell Green
5. Mel Blount

Champ is close, but needs some postseason success to be on that list.

Ronnie only played 4 years as a CB and Green gets slanted consideration because he played so effing long. Champ's already a top 3 all timer at CB, imo.

24champ
05-31-2011, 05:42 PM
Ronnie Lott was a safety I believe

He was both.

vancejohnson82
05-31-2011, 05:43 PM
He was both.

fair enough....I think he would be in safety conversations though

To me there are only three in conversation:

Champ
Blount
Deion

MagicHef
05-31-2011, 05:46 PM
We will see....it's not based off of best in the league right now...it's based off of 2011 season

72 catches
953 yards
9 TDs

puts TO in the top 100 players last year

Those were his 2010 numbers. The 2011 season hasn't happened yet. The list is based off of what is expected of these players next season, which would most likely be based off of their entire careers.

24champ
05-31-2011, 05:47 PM
Ronnie only played 4 years as a CB and Green gets slanted consideration because he played so effing long. Champ's already a top 3 all timer at CB, imo.

I don't know about all time 3 timer, that's a bit lofty considering Champs only real postseason success came in 2005. He's going to need some more postseason success to jump into that category.

That's just my opinion though.

orange crusher
05-31-2011, 05:52 PM
We will see....it's not based off of best in the league right now...it's based off of 2011 season

Where did you see this? I was under the impression that the players voted on the best players right now.

vancejohnson82
05-31-2011, 05:53 PM
Those were his 2010 numbers. The 2011 season hasn't happened yet. The list is based off of what is expected of these players next season, which would most likely be based off of their entire careers.

whatever semantics...the name of the show is "Top 100 Players of 2011"

MagicHef
05-31-2011, 07:14 PM
whatever semantics...the name of the show is "Top 100 Players of 2011"

Was I in a coma that caused me to miss the 2011 season? How did we do? Did Von win DROY?

BroncoMan4ever
05-31-2011, 07:47 PM
Of course, I am a homer, but I believe Champ is still the best CB in the league today, he's been set back by injuries and the revolving door of Defensive Coordinators. I just want to see Champ get a Super Bowl ring (don't we all!), that will definitely make him join the conversation of being in the top 5 all-time CBs.

1. Deion Sanders (NFL DPOY/SB rings)
2. Rod Woodson
3. Ronnie Lott
4. Darrell Green
5. Mel Blount

Champ is close, but needs some postseason success to be on that list.

honestly if i am in control of a franchise and hypothetically can get Champ or Deion in their primes as my shutdown corner and could only choose 1, i would take Champ over Deion without a moments hesitation.

not being a homer, Champ is almost as good as Deion in coverage, but is more rounded in his game, can tackle and is not a liability but instead an asset in stopping the running game

bowtown
05-31-2011, 08:17 PM
Didn't open the list, I'm assuming Hillis was #1?

Baba Booey
05-31-2011, 08:26 PM
Well deserved. He made some truly remarkable catches last year.

Glad to see he's working out with Tebow as well. I think Lloyd has a few good seasons left in him.

cutthemdown
05-31-2011, 09:03 PM
I'd take deion over champ because he made bigger plays.

cutthemdown
05-31-2011, 09:07 PM
Also LLoyd played well but one good season means very little in the NFL. Hell Ashley Lelie had a couple good yrs. Lloyd still has to prove hes a number 1 wr. Tebow doesn't have any established weapons at the skill spots that would be considered true top end NFL talent. Not wr, not te, not rb.

HAT
05-31-2011, 09:33 PM
Great highlight reel. Hard to believe someone actually tried to pimp the phrase "Chuck it deep to Lloyd" as a derogatory reference.

strafen
05-31-2011, 09:47 PM
Lloyd based on his career so far, was a one-year wonder last season as far as I'm concerned.
Let's see if he can put similar numbers next year...

baja
05-31-2011, 09:50 PM
Lloyd based on his career so far, was a one-year wonder last season as far as I'm concerned.
Let's see if he can put similar numbers next year...

It was McD's offense that made him.

BroncoMan4ever
06-01-2011, 12:10 AM
I'd take deion over champ because he made bigger plays.

look at the all around defenses Deion had in front of him. his only job was coverage. if Champ had defenses like Deion did, there is no disputing who is better simply because Champ is a better all around football player in addition to off the charts coverage skills.

it is easy to look great when you only have to worry about 1 guy, or 1 part of the field while 10 other guys take care of business, it is a completely different thing when you have to worry about your 1 guy or 1 side of the field when you also have to play the role of caretaker to 10 inept players playing beside you.

look at 2006 for Champ. he had an upper level defense around him and had a year

Deion Sanders Stats after 14 seasons
419 tackles(30 per season average) 1 Sack 10 Forced Fumbles 10 Fumbles Recovered 53 INTs(3.8 per season) and 9 TDs

Champ Bailey Stats after 12 seasons
698 Tackles(59 per season average) 3 Sacks 6 Forced Fumbles 6 Fumbles Recovered 48 INTs(4 per season average) and 4 TDs

Champ is the better tackler, better in run stopping, and averages more INTs than Deion.

i take Champ for my team any day over Deion

add in Deion was an obnoxious prick and it is another reason to choose Champ

24champ
06-01-2011, 12:36 AM
honestly if i am in control of a franchise and hypothetically can get Champ or Deion in their primes as my shutdown corner and could only choose 1, i would take Champ over Deion without a moments hesitation.

not being a homer, Champ is almost as good as Deion in coverage, but is more rounded in his game, can tackle and is not a liability but instead an asset in stopping the running game

Prime Time earned every accolade you can get as a Corner, including DPOY. He was a ballhawk, but his closing speed is what sets him apart from every corner that ever played. He was a tremendous athlete that could return kicks and also played on offense sparingly. Not to mention he played for a bunch of teams in Major League Baseball, he's the only player I know of that has scored a touchdown and hit a home run in the same week. He was just that much of a freak athlete. The guy scored a touchdown six different ways on the field! He was fun to watch, one of my favorite players of all time.

Plus he was in a music video with MC Hammer and Jean Claude Van Damme! Ha!


<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/cM7vqqS8jSI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

broncocalijohn
06-01-2011, 12:47 AM
Clady might make it...



This was the back 50, not the top.

Why would Clady make the top 50 of this coming year? IMO, he has not been better since his rookie year. No Pro Bowl and I saw many times guys got by him unlike when he was starting out with us. New guys on the line next to him? Injury still bothering him? Those can be good excuses but it doesn't mean he is top 50 for 2011. You have so many skilled positions going in the top 50, why would Clady be worthy of a top 50 player for 2011? No one on the line deserves #51 to #100. I just cannot see the NFL putting him that high on the list with question marks coming into 2011. I am not saying ? marks as a starter or being a good player just the ? marks to label him a top 50 player. If it was injuries, he better be in top notch shape for 2011....if there is a season.

Lloyd based on his career so far, was a one-year wonder last season as far as I'm concerned.
Let's see if he can put similar numbers next year...

Then again, NFL show had no problem labeling Lloyd a #58 after one "break out" season.

24champ
06-01-2011, 01:23 AM
look at the all around defenses Deion had in front of him. his only job was coverage. if Champ had defenses like Deion did, there is no disputing who is better simply because Champ is a better all around football player in addition to off the charts coverage skills.

it is easy to look great when you only have to worry about 1 guy, or 1 part of the field while 10 other guys take care of business, it is a completely different thing when you have to worry about your 1 guy or 1 side of the field when you also have to play the role of caretaker to 10 inept players playing beside you.

look at 2006 for Champ. he had an upper level defense around him and had a year

Deion Sanders Stats after 14 seasons
419 tackles(30 per season average) 1 Sack 10 Forced Fumbles 10 Fumbles Recovered 53 INTs(3.8 per season) and 9 TDs

Champ Bailey Stats after 12 seasons
698 Tackles(59 per season average) 3 Sacks 6 Forced Fumbles 6 Fumbles Recovered 48 INTs(4 per season average) and 4 TDs

Champ is the better tackler, better in run stopping, and averages more INTs than Deion.

i take Champ for my team any day over Deion

add in Deion was an obnoxious prick and it is another reason to choose Champ

It's a good debate as they both have different skill sets as corners. Champ is more well rounded, and his tackling form is excellent. However, I don't want Champ to be tackling all the time, a corner's job is to cover. Champ has a small frame and the pounding he takes by tackling so much really wears him down. He's been gimpy the last few seasons trying to do everything to help this franchise win. I'd like to see Champ play on a better defense where Champ can just worry about covering his side of the field, which will prolong his career.

Champ's career isn't over for a few seasons, so he still has time to work on his credentials to be the top Corner of all time. He knows it too, that's why Champ keeps talking about winning a Super Bowl. The main thing for Champ is that the Broncos need to make the playoffs.

At the end of the day, Deion has the hardware. Champ needs to get some to take over Neon Deion.

cutthemdown
06-01-2011, 02:36 AM
look at the all around defenses Deion had in front of him. his only job was coverage. if Champ had defenses like Deion did, there is no disputing who is better simply because Champ is a better all around football player in addition to off the charts coverage skills.

it is easy to look great when you only have to worry about 1 guy, or 1 part of the field while 10 other guys take care of business, it is a completely different thing when you have to worry about your 1 guy or 1 side of the field when you also have to play the role of caretaker to 10 inept players playing beside you.

look at 2006 for Champ. he had an upper level defense around him and had a year

Deion Sanders Stats after 14 seasons
419 tackles(30 per season average) 1 Sack 10 Forced Fumbles 10 Fumbles Recovered 53 INTs(3.8 per season) and 9 TDs

Champ Bailey Stats after 12 seasons
698 Tackles(59 per season average) 3 Sacks 6 Forced Fumbles 6 Fumbles Recovered 48 INTs(4 per season average) and 4 TDs

Champ is the better tackler, better in run stopping, and averages more INTs than Deion.

i take Champ for my team any day over Deion

add in Deion was an obnoxious prick and it is another reason to choose Champ

Look at the tds Dieon scored that changed and won some big games. Just saying that why, not that Bailey doesn't have some legitimate stats to make him the choice over Deion. Over twice the tds. Also just the field position he set up in return game, and how they tried to kick away from him etc made him a force on special teams. I love Bailey though for sure.

Champagne Powder
06-01-2011, 03:30 AM
Also LLoyd played well but one good season means very little in the NFL. Hell Ashley Lelie had a couple good yrs. Lloyd still has to prove hes a number 1 wr.

Don't diminish what Lloyd what did. He's the only WR in team history to lead the NFL in receiving yards. It's a big deal and it means more than very little.

cutthemdown
06-01-2011, 09:36 AM
Don't diminish what Lloyd what did. He's the only WR in team history to lead the NFL in receiving yards. It's a big deal and it means more than very little.

If it happened in a yr where we weren't behind in every game, didn't throw about 100 attempts too many throughout the yr etc etc. Lloyd isn't anywhere near the top number 1 wr in the NFL. Don't go kidding yourself.

cutthemdown
06-01-2011, 09:38 AM
If people need to pretend Lloyd is even in the top 15 NFL wideouts though I don't have a real problem with that. It makes sense because we want to have some stars on the offense and Lloyd the only skill player on the WR/TE/RB table that is even worth consideration.

Flex Gunmetal
06-01-2011, 10:24 AM
If it happened in a yr where we weren't behind in every game, didn't throw about 100 attempts too many throughout the yr etc etc. Lloyd isn't anywhere near the top number 1 wr in the NFL. Don't go kidding yourself.

Capitalizing on his opportunities discredits what he did?
You are always so full of garbage lol.
1400+ yards don't come easy for anyone. BRB Marvin Harrison sucks balls because Peyton throws the ball too much.

cutthemdown
06-01-2011, 10:43 AM
Capitalizing on his opportunities discredits what he did?
You are always so full of garbage lol.
1400+ yards don't come easy for anyone. BRB Marvin Harrison sucks balls because Peyton throws the ball too much.

Whatever you aren't listening to what I say. Since when does not being in the top 15 mean you are garbage. What is garbage is your analogy to a player who won, over several yrs, and won a superbowl. I mean does that have anything to do with Lloyd? in anyway? He had a huge yr but I would still, IMO, rank him in the bottom half of NFL number 1 wr. Not saying he cant be a number 1 wr, only that there are at least 14 NFL wr i would trade him for.

Do you disagree there are at least 14 better WR then Lloyd?

Shananahan
06-01-2011, 10:50 AM
I'm fully prepared for a 'down' year from Lloyd. I don't think he'll fall off the map and just suck it up, but in my mind there's just no way he can repeat last year's performance. I'm gonna set my expectations for about 900 yards or so from the guy. If he can just continue to be a quality deep threat and stretch the defense to open up the run game I'll be fine with it. I'm really looking forward to a more balanced offense this year.

Captain 'Dre
06-01-2011, 10:57 AM
No offense to Brandon Lloyd, but I can think of at least 59 other NFL players I'd prefer to have on my team before him. Ha!

TheReverend
06-01-2011, 10:58 AM
Elite Tier:

1. Andre Johnson
2. Larry Fitzgerald
3. Calvin Johnson

Great Tier:

4. Reggie Wayne
5. Greg Jennings
6. Roddie White
7. Brandon Marshall

Extremely Good Tier:

8. Miles Austin
9. Marques Colston
10. DeSean Jackson

Very good tier:

11. Steve Smith
12. Mike Wallace
13. Dwayne Bowe
14. Brandon Lloyd
15. Hakeem Nicks

--------------

Okay, so personally not being a big fan of Lloyd after his work ethic issues years ago AND penalizing him for just the one breakout season, I could not find a way to NOT fit him in my top 15... and believe me, I tried.

Captain 'Dre
06-01-2011, 11:01 AM
Champ is the better tackler, better in run stopping, and averages more INTs than Deion.

i take Champ for my team any day over Deion

add in Deion was an obnoxious prick and it is another reason to choose Champ

Champ is, no doubt, the better rounded player.

Deion's obnoxiousness just seals the deal.

Captain 'Dre
06-01-2011, 11:03 AM
Elite Tier:

1. Andre Johnson
2. Larry Fitzgerald
3. Calvin Johnson

Great Tier:

4. Reggie Wayne
5. Greg Jennings
6. Roddie White
7. Brandon Marshall

Extremely Good Tier:

8. Miles Austin
9. Marques Colston
10. DeSean Jackson

Very good tier:

11. Steve Smith
12. Mike Wallace
13. Dwayne Bowe
14. Brandon Lloyd
15. Hakeem Nicks

--------------

Okay, so personally not being a big fan of Lloyd after his work ethic issues years ago AND penalizing him for just the one breakout season, I could not find a way to NOT fit him in my top 15... and believe me, I tried.

You left Vincent Jackson off the list. He'd belong in your "Extremely Good" tier.

NUB
06-01-2011, 11:44 AM
The only thing Sanders has over Bailey is punt-returning and the good luck of playing on the best teams of his era. Champ Bailey is absolutely a better football player.

TheReverend
06-01-2011, 11:46 AM
You left Vincent Jackson off the list. He'd belong in your "Extremely Good" tier.

..........or did I?

24champ
06-01-2011, 11:59 AM
Elite Tier:

1. Andre Johnson
2. Larry Fitzgerald
3. Calvin Johnson

Great Tier:

4. Reggie Wayne
5. Greg Jennings
6. Roddie White
7. Brandon Marshall

Extremely Good Tier:

8. Miles Austin
9. Marques Colston
10. DeSean Jackson

Very good tier:

11. Steve Smith
12. Mike Wallace
13. Dwayne Bowe
14. Brandon Lloyd
15. Hakeem Nicks

--------------

Okay, so personally not being a big fan of Lloyd after his work ethic issues years ago AND penalizing him for just the one breakout season, I could not find a way to NOT fit him in my top 15... and believe me, I tried.

Why is Reggie Wayne not in the elite category?

BroncoMan4ever
06-01-2011, 12:03 PM
Look at the tds Dieon scored that changed and won some big games. Just saying that why, not that Bailey doesn't have some legitimate stats to make him the choice over Deion. Over twice the tds. Also just the field position he set up in return game, and how they tried to kick away from him etc made him a force on special teams. I love Bailey though for sure.

look at the 2005 season. Denver was on the verge of going 0-2 to open the season, when Champ pulls down an interception he runs back for a TD that turns that game and season around

later in 2005 his interception of Brady he runs back 101 yards is instrumental in giving Denver its first playoff win without Elway and New England's first playoff loss with Brady.

75% of the world is covered in water, the other 25% is covered by Champ

Beantown Bronco
06-01-2011, 12:06 PM
Why is Reggie Wayne not in the elite category?

He's the beneficiary of better QB play than everyone else on the list? He'll be 33 this year?

24champ
06-01-2011, 12:11 PM
He's the beneficiary of better QB play than everyone else on the list? He'll be 33 this year?

Reggie has always been pretty durable throughout his career and has put up some great numbers. Sure it doesn't hurt to have Manning as a teammate, but it also shouldn't detract from him either.

Beantown Bronco
06-01-2011, 12:14 PM
Reggie has always been pretty durable throughout his career and has put up some great numbers. Sure it doesn't hurt to have Manning as a teammate, but it also shouldn't detract from him either.

I think you're getting too caught up in the titles of the categories.

To be fair, Rev's putting him as the fourth best WR in the entire league. It's not like's he's saying he sucks. He's just not as "elite" as the top 3 guys on his list. I don't think anyone would really disagree with that assessment.

TheReverend
06-01-2011, 12:34 PM
Why is Reggie Wayne not in the elite category?

I don't think he's on that insanely talented level of the other three.

Personally I don't view being ranked the #4 at your position to be a slight at all.

TheReverend
06-01-2011, 12:35 PM
I think you're getting too caught up in the titles of the categories.

To be fair, Rev's putting him as the fourth best WR in the entire league. It's not like's he's saying he sucks. He's just not as "elite" as the top 3 guys on his list. I don't think anyone would really disagree with that assessment.

Oh.

Man.

You already covered it almost word for word.

24champ
06-01-2011, 01:11 PM
I don't think he's on that insanely talented level of the other three.

Personally I don't view being ranked the #4 at your position to be a slight at all.

It's a slight somewhat when none of those receivers in Wayne's "category" ever hit 1,500 yds in receiving. Wayne faces different coverages and sometimes get double coverage. That's hard to do and your right, he may not be has talented as Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, and Fitz. However, he runs the best routes in the game. He has Rod Smith type work ethic, puts in the time like his QB does.

WTF man?

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01004/reggie_wayne_08100_1004643c.jpg

mr007
06-01-2011, 01:13 PM
Elite Tier:

1. Andre Johnson
2. Larry Fitzgerald
3. Calvin Johnson

Great Tier:

4. Reggie Wayne
5. Greg Jennings
6. Roddie White
7. Brandon Marshall

Extremely Good Tier:

8. Miles Austin
9. Marques Colston
10. DeSean Jackson

Very good tier:

11. Steve Smith
12. Mike Wallace
13. Dwayne Bowe
14. Brandon Lloyd
15. Hakeem Nicks

--------------

Okay, so personally not being a big fan of Lloyd after his work ethic issues years ago AND penalizing him for just the one breakout season, I could not find a way to NOT fit him in my top 15... and believe me, I tried.

I'm not so sure BM fits in the great tier and I would have added Boldin and probably VJ somewhere - otherwise pretty good list.

cutthemdown
06-01-2011, 01:17 PM
look at the 2005 season. Denver was on the verge of going 0-2 to open the season, when Champ pulls down an interception he runs back for a TD that turns that game and season around

later in 2005 his interception of Brady he runs back 101 yards is instrumental in giving Denver its first playoff win without Elway and New England's first playoff loss with Brady.

75% of the world is covered in water, the other 25% is covered by Champ

I love Champ. There being 1 CB, maybe 2 I would have taken over him in the 33 yrs I have been a Broncos fan seems like a lot of respect to me. I think the board sort of over reacts, and it rates great Broncos too great. No problem though I love CHamp and think Lloyd is a starter in the NFL. I'm just not sold hes a 1200 plus a yr, 80 catches a yr, 10 plus td a yr guy for strings of yrs in the NFL. I hope so, like he is just some rare late bloomer. It happens I'm sure the stat hounds will no show me 3-4 great wr that stunk or were avg first 3-4 yrs. Most times though players break out before then.

Thats why Thomas getting dinged again was such a bummer. I really thought maybe he would come on and it wouldnt matter. Lloyd would be fine just opposite his physical presence. But we will see, hopefully.

cutthemdown
06-01-2011, 01:22 PM
Elite Tier:

1. Andre Johnson
2. Larry Fitzgerald
3. Calvin Johnson

Great Tier:

4. Reggie Wayne
5. Greg Jennings
6. Roddie White
7. Brandon Marshall

Extremely Good Tier:

8. Miles Austin
9. Marques Colston
10. DeSean Jackson

Very good tier:

11. Steve Smith
12. Mike Wallace
13. Dwayne Bowe
14. Brandon Lloyd
15. Hakeem Nicks

--------------

Okay, so personally not being a big fan of Lloyd after his work ethic issues years ago AND penalizing him for just the one breakout season, I could not find a way to NOT fit him in my top 15... and believe me, I tried.

I can respect this list. So maybe, a good chance he is bottom of the top 15. But that is looking at last yr only. Not sure Lloyd will make your list next yr. Good list though.

TheReverend
06-01-2011, 01:34 PM
It's a slight somewhat when none of those receivers in Wayne's "category" ever hit 1,500 yds in receiving.

He's also ranked above everyone in "his category".

Wayne faces different coverages and sometimes get double coverage.

Everyone on this list does

your right, he may not be has talented as Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, and Fitz.

I know. I'm glad you agree now

However, he runs the best routes in the game. He has Rod Smith type work ethic, puts in the time like his QB does.

Keep it up and I'll pop Jennings and White over him

8')

Gcver2ver3
06-01-2011, 01:41 PM
This was the back 50, not the top.

oh

Captain 'Dre
06-01-2011, 02:16 PM
..........or did I?

Pfffffft! If you don't think Vincent Jackson belongs on your list, you must REALLY love Philip Rivers! Ha!

24champ
06-01-2011, 02:17 PM
He's also ranked above everyone in "his category".


His numbers are more identical to those in the top 3, not those in the category you put him in. There should be 4 players in the elite category.

Keep it up and I'll pop Jennings and White over him

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/15300000/Oh-No-You-Didnt-michael-jackson-funny-moments-15318962-600-450.jpg

TheReverend
06-01-2011, 02:21 PM
Pfffffft! If you don't think Vincent Jackson belongs on your list, you must REALLY love Philip Rivers! Ha!

...Did you see the season he put up without VJ?

BroncoMan4ever
06-01-2011, 04:24 PM
I love Champ. There being 1 CB, maybe 2 I would have taken over him in the 33 yrs I have been a Broncos fan seems like a lot of respect to me. I think the board sort of over reacts, and it rates great Broncos too great. No problem though I love CHamp and think Lloyd is a starter in the NFL. I'm just not sold hes a 1200 plus a yr, 80 catches a yr, 10 plus td a yr guy for strings of yrs in the NFL. I hope so, like he is just some rare late bloomer. It happens I'm sure the stat hounds will no show me 3-4 great wr that stunk or were avg first 3-4 yrs. Most times though players break out before then.

Thats why Thomas getting dinged again was such a bummer. I really thought maybe he would come on and it wouldnt matter. Lloyd would be fine just opposite his physical presence. But we will see, hopefully.

good point. i just look at Champ and Deion and see almost identical coverage skills and then Champ has the added ability of an all around football player. it is a good debate on which you would rather have, as really there is no wrong answer to the question.

and i agree with Lloyd, he has always been that guy who had incredible talent but until last season never really put it all together on the field. it will be nice to see if he can do it for more than just 1 season and not just in McDaniels chuck it up offense.

24champ
06-01-2011, 05:00 PM
...Did you see the season he put up without VJ?

http://kermitbale.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/kermit-bale-nod.gif

TheReverend
06-01-2011, 05:08 PM
http://kermitbale.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/kermit-bale-nod.gif

That's still my favorite gif after years... but to respond:

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f102/hungarian_boss/Funny%20Gifs/vrea15jpg.gif

2KBack
06-01-2011, 07:28 PM
I don't think anyone has had quite the jump from complete failure to Pro-bowler like Loyd.

Still I wouldn't be a stat guy if I didn't look for some other notables that took time to make an impact in the league.

Chris Carter was considered a huge talent that could put it together in Philly. He finally broke out in his 7th season with Minnesota

Tim Brown was a utility weapon from day one, but only became a league leading receiving threat in his 6th season.

Jimmy Smith couldn't even get on the field to start his career, eventually making a major impact in his 7th season.

Eddie Mac himself jumped around the league until finally settling into an impact role in Denver...in his 8th season.

Still, none of those guys failed quite so hard as Loyd did...up until this past (his 8th) season.

24champ
06-01-2011, 09:55 PM
That's still my favorite gif after years... but to respond:

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f102/hungarian_boss/Funny%20Gifs/vrea15jpg.gif

Good one, but dogs are funnier, IMO.


http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/easyrider.gif

TheReverend
06-01-2011, 10:00 PM
Good one, but dogs are funnier, IMO.


http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/easyrider.gif

Good one, but Tracy Morgan is funnier, IMO.

http://img14.yfrog.com/img14/5436/zxs2eujpg.gif

broncocalijohn
06-01-2011, 10:24 PM
...Did you see the season he put up without VJ?

Are you kidding us? He still had a great year with VJ only catching one pass and Gates at only 50 catches in 10 games. Floyd in 11 games. Many of their regulars were injured last year.
Here is Rivers stats for 2010....

PASSING
ATT COMP PCT YDS AVG YDS/G LONG TD TD% INT INT% SACK YDSL RATE
541 357 66.0 4710 8.7 280.2 59 30 5.5 13 2.4 38 227 101.8

Here is the injury roto news before the Broncos game on Monday Night.
http://sports.yahoo.com/fantasy/blog/roto_arcade/post/Injury-Wrap-Everything-hurts-in-San-Diego?urn=fantasy-287652

Here is Rivers' stats vs that game:
15 for 24, 233 yards, 4 TDs, 1 INT
Win for the Chargers 35 to 14

I think Rivers did A ok for their team last year.

TheReverend
06-01-2011, 10:28 PM
Are you kidding us? He still had a great year with VJ only catching one pass and Gates at only 50 catches in 10 games. Floyd in 11 games. Many of their regulars were injured last year.
Here is Rivers stats for 2010....

PASSING
ATT COMP PCT YDS AVG YDS/G LONG TD TD% INT INT% SACK YDSL RATE
541 357 66.0 4710 8.7 280.2 59 30 5.5 13 2.4 38 227 101.8

Hey retard, that's what I'm SAYING.

You even edited your post and still didn't understand?

broncocalijohn
06-01-2011, 10:34 PM
Hey retard, that's what I'm SAYING.

You even edited your post and still didn't understand?

thought you were pointing out he didn't have a good year without VJ (since it was being replied concerning Rivers). Unlike you, I can admit if I made a mistake. It takes a big man to do that. But if name calling with that works for you, keep at it. See Rev, notice when I thought you were completely wrong on Rivers, I didn't call you a phaggot, c.ock sucker, a retard, etc. Try it a few times.

24champ
06-01-2011, 10:43 PM
Good one, but Tracy Morgan is funnier, IMO.

http://img14.yfrog.com/img14/5436/zxs2eujpg.gif

Agreed....and Reggie Wayne is elite.


http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd314/NiGHTS8888/slothshades-1.gif

strafen
06-01-2011, 10:43 PM
Hey retard, that's what I'm SAYING.

You even edited your post and still didn't understand?Where's the love, dog? :rofl:

TheReverend
06-01-2011, 10:45 PM
thought you were pointing out he didn't have a good year without VJ (since it was being replied concerning Rivers). Unlike you, I can admit if I made a mistake. It takes a big man to do that. But if name calling with that works for you, keep at it. See Rev, notice when I thought you were completely wrong on Rivers, I didn't call you a phaggot, c.ock sucker, a retard, etc. Try it a few times.

That's because I don't make mistakes and I'm your superior, so you SHOULD treat me with respect. You, on the other hand, need to be reminded you're gutter filth.

BroncoMan4ever
06-01-2011, 10:49 PM
Are you kidding us? He still had a great year with VJ only catching one pass and Gates at only 50 catches in 10 games. Floyd in 11 games. Many of their regulars were injured last year.
Here is Rivers stats for 2010....

PASSING
ATT COMP PCT YDS AVG YDS/G LONG TD TD% INT INT% SACK YDSL RATE
541 357 66.0 4710 8.7 280.2 59 30 5.5 13 2.4 38 227 101.8

Here is the injury roto news before the Broncos game on Monday Night.
http://sports.yahoo.com/fantasy/blog/roto_arcade/post/Injury-Wrap-Everything-hurts-in-San-Diego?urn=fantasy-287652

Here is Rivers' stats vs that game:
15 for 24, 233 yards, 4 TDs, 1 INT
Win for the Chargers 35 to 14

I think Rivers did A ok for their team last year.

jesus christ!

i hate the ****er but with stats like these, how can anyone not claim this guy as an elite QB

broncocalijohn
06-01-2011, 10:52 PM
jesus christ!

i hate the ****er but with stats like these, how can anyone not claim this guy as an elite QB

Why I hated to praise him here when all others were criticizing him over the same things that Cutler had in personality. He has been a winner since we made sure Brees wasn't going to be re-signed. Let us hope Tebow is someone that we wont even think about Cutler or Rivers. Good defense will help too.

TheReverend
06-01-2011, 10:54 PM
Agreed....and Reggie Wayne is elite.


http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd314/NiGHTS8888/slothshades-1.gif

Elite at being #4

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad98/mlemos77/Random%20Crap/betty-white-deal-with-it.gif

(fyi, I have the funniest one of those ever made, but it's too NSFW to post here)

BroncoMan4ever
06-01-2011, 10:55 PM
Good one, but dogs are funnier, IMO.


http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/easyrider.gif

i see your dog gardener and raise you this guy

24champ
06-01-2011, 11:12 PM
Elite at being #4

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad98/mlemos77/Random%20Crap/betty-white-deal-with-it.gif

(fyi, I have the funniest one of those ever made, but it's too NSFW to post here)

Elite at #4 is fine, wasn't arguing Wayne against the top 3 guys. Just the category you put him in.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s292/SuperMario1_photos/Youre_Awesome.gif


Next up, teaching you how to scout Quarterbacks for next years draft. ;D

BroncoMan4ever
06-01-2011, 11:21 PM
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s292/SuperMario1_photos/Youre_Awesome.gif




god i ****ing hate Ricky Gervais. he is such an unfunny dick.

24champ
06-01-2011, 11:26 PM
i see your dog gardener and raise you this guy

That's actually Thedave.

I'll call your gif with...

http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/c8e335d7-c82f-4d25-bfc2-878363a9d7b5.gif

BroncoMan4ever
06-01-2011, 11:44 PM
That's actually Thedave.

I'll call your gif with...

http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/c8e335d7-c82f-4d25-bfc2-878363a9d7b5.gif

i will re-raise with this lady

cutthemdown
06-01-2011, 11:54 PM
This won't go over well, but I would take VJ over Lloyd if it was based on who I thought was the more dominant wr. But considering salary, attitude, who knows.

Rausch 2.0
06-02-2011, 11:35 AM
jesus christ!

i hate the ****er but with stats like these, how can anyone not claim this guy as an elite QB

To me Rivers is the next Marino: the most talented guy to never win a ring because, when it comes down to the last play, everyone wants to strangle the ****er...

vancejohnson82
06-02-2011, 11:40 AM
Roddy White should be in the elite tier

Garcia Bronco
06-02-2011, 12:05 PM
Calling some elite in the NFL is ****ing stupid.

vancejohnson82
06-02-2011, 12:08 PM
Calling some elite in the NFL is ****ing stupid.

care to elaborate?

Captain 'Dre
06-02-2011, 02:24 PM
...Did you see the season he put up without VJ?

Yah, and I can only imagine the kind of season he would have had if V.J. had been there.

Captain 'Dre
06-02-2011, 02:31 PM
jesus christ!

i hate the ****er but with stats like these, how can anyone not claim this guy as an elite QB

Really, what's to hate? He saw that Jay Cutler was a douchebag considerably before most of the rest of us did! Ha!

Tell me with a straight face that you wouldn't LOVE to have Rivers as the Broncos' QB.

Cito Pelon
06-03-2011, 10:19 AM
look at the all around defenses Deion had in front of him. his only job was coverage. if Champ had defenses like Deion did, there is no disputing who is better simply because Champ is a better all around football player in addition to off the charts coverage skills.

it is easy to look great when you only have to worry about 1 guy, or 1 part of the field while 10 other guys take care of business, it is a completely different thing when you have to worry about your 1 guy or 1 side of the field when you also have to play the role of caretaker to 10 inept players playing beside you.

look at 2006 for Champ. he had an upper level defense around him and had a year

Deion Sanders Stats after 14 seasons
419 tackles(30 per season average) 1 Sack 10 Forced Fumbles 10 Fumbles Recovered 53 INTs(3.8 per season) and 9 TDs

Champ Bailey Stats after 12 seasons
698 Tackles(59 per season average) 3 Sacks 6 Forced Fumbles 6 Fumbles Recovered 48 INTs(4 per season average) and 4 TDs

Champ is the better tackler, better in run stopping, and averages more INTs than Deion.

i take Champ for my team any day over Deion

add in Deion was an obnoxious prick and it is another reason to choose Champ

I don't mean to particularly pick on your post, but just some things to consider:

The thing about Deion was the # of TD's he scored.

3 reception TD's, 6 PR TD's, 3 KR TD's, 1 FR TD, 9 INT TD's.

Deion - 22 TD's
Champ - 5 TD's (1 rush TD, 4 INT TD's)

Deion had the knack for returns, unfortunately Champ does not.

Champ has all the skills except return ability. Champ has less INT return yards than Deltha O'Neal, less INT return yds than Brian Dawkins. Dude is 201st all-time in INT return yards (446 yds) despite being 39th all-time in total INT's (48 INT's).

The other guys with 48 INT's:

Herb Adderley - 1046 return yds
Dave Grayson - 933 return yds
Richie Petitbon - 801 return yds
Dave Waymer - 536 return yds
Willie Wood - 699 return yds

It's always ticked me off that Champ gets an INT, then takes about three steps and gets tackled or runs out of bounds.

Now, the above is just regular season. It doesn't include Champ's 101 yd INT return in the playoffs when he was showboating at the end and NE's Ben Watson hammered him at the goal line and forced Champ to fumble. Remember, it required a booth replay to decide if that was a TD return or NE's ball at the twenty.

Then, that same year, 2005, in the AFCCG, Champ blew a gimme picksix in the first quarter, and gave up two TD's in the redzone to PITT later in the game.

Champ is a good solid guy and definitely has saved some games through tackling and INT's, but I expected so much more from the guy after the trade for Portis.

cutthemdown
06-03-2011, 10:26 AM
Yep that is why I picked dieon over champ. The big game changing tds he scored tip it in his favor. In fact he scored so many more then champ its not even a discussion.

24champ
06-03-2011, 10:43 AM
Champ is a good solid guy and definitely has saved some games through tackling and INT's, but I expected so much more from the guy after the trade for Portis.

What exactly did you expect given the circumstances that have transpired since Champ's acquisition? How is he supposed to perform when the defense is swiss cheese and the revolving door of Defensive Coordinators? As a result of such a crappy defense, he's been making a high number of tackles on the field which given his frame and build, he's not built to do.

When you look at that 2005 season, Champ had a low number of tackles and his production as a Corner went up, because he didn't have to worry about babysitting the rest of the defense. Bailey's numbers on combined tackling has been in the 70s and 80s. It's inevitable that there is going to be some wear and tear with that kind of production.

So to say you expected much more from Champ, is ridiculous. This guy has been sacrificing his body for the team and without Champ, this franchise would have had a few more 4-12 seasons.

vancejohnson82
06-03-2011, 10:46 AM
wow....someone really went in on Champ like that?

he doesnt have as many return yards or picks because teams decide to not throw towards him. He changes the game just as much as Deion in the week leading up because the offensive coordinators have to gameplan around him

24champ
06-03-2011, 10:49 AM
wow....someone really went in on Champ like that?

he doesnt have as many return yards or picks because teams decide to not throw towards him. He changes the game just as much as Deion in the week leading up because the offensive coordinators have to gameplan around him

To be fair, OC's had to game plan around Prime Time too. So that's not really an argument to be making.

I just think with Prime Time's DPOY (extremely hard for a CB to get) and Super Bowl rings, puts him at #1.

CEH
06-03-2011, 11:00 AM
Deion reminded me of Ken Griffey Jr back when they called Griffey Nitendo because he was just that much better than everyone else. Dieon took a punt back in his first game as a Pro and looked like he could change the game whenever he wanted as long as he could bait the QB to throw his way and Not a slight on Champ Champ is my all time favorite defensive player for Denver.

bowtown
06-03-2011, 11:17 AM
Calling some elite in the NFL is ****ing stupid.

http://media.scout.com/media/forums/emoticons/168/f6c1654a64faf650f28fae7ac014218f3df5ccdf.gif

Cito Pelon
06-03-2011, 11:23 AM
What exactly did you expect given the circumstances that have transpired since Champ's acquisition? How is he supposed to perform when the defense is swiss cheese and the revolving door of Defensive Coordinators? As a result of such a crappy defense, he's been making a high number of tackles on the field which given his frame and build, he's not built to do.

When you look at that 2005 season, Champ had a low number of tackles and his production as a Corner went up, because he didn't have to worry about babysitting the rest of the defense. Bailey's numbers on combined tackling has been in the 70s and 80s. It's inevitable that there is going to be some wear and tear with that kind of production.

So to say you expected much more from Champ, is ridiculous. This guy has been sacrificing his body for the team and without Champ, this franchise would have had a few more 4-12 seasons.

Really, all I said negative about Champ was he has poor return skills. Which is true.

Of course, I've always been more negative about Champ than most around here because I had such a massive man-crush about Portis. :wiggle:

24champ
06-03-2011, 11:28 AM
http://media.scout.com/media/forums/emoticons/168/f6c1654a64faf650f28fae7ac014218f3df5ccdf.gif

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc45/snesfreak/charliemurphy.gif

Cito Pelon
06-03-2011, 11:42 AM
wow....someone really went in on Champ like that?

he doesnt have as many return yards or picks because teams decide to not throw towards him. He changes the game just as much as Deion in the week leading up because the offensive coordinators have to gameplan around him

Again, what sets Champ down quite a bit is the poor return yards per INT. 446 INT return yds with 48 INT's. Dude has less INT return yards for his career than Deltha O'Neal. Champ has been a pretty solid player for his career, but 201st all-time in INT return yds is kind of pathetic, really.

24champ
06-03-2011, 11:48 AM
Really, all I said negative about Champ was he has poor return skills. Which is true.

Of course, I've always been more negative about Champ than most around here because I had such a massive man-crush about Portis. :wiggle:

I think most Bronco fans loved Portis, and I would loved to have seen the Broncos find a way to keep Portis and still acquire Champ. I don't think Champ's return skills are poor, just that he's been really gimpy lately making a bunch of tackles and that took a toll on his body. I'm hoping Broncos have shored up the defense to where it allows Champ to do his job of covering and not being the extra linebacker out there.

Beantown Bronco
06-03-2011, 11:52 AM
Again, what sets Champ down quite a bit is the poor return yards per INT. 446 INT return yds with 48 INT's. Dude has less INT return yards for his career than Deltha O'Neal. Champ has been a pretty solid player for his career, but 201st all-time in INT return yds is kind of pathetic, really.

Probably because most of Champ's INTs seem to come while he's either diving or running along the sideline in blanket coverage, not in open space in a zone defense. The WR is usually in good position to tackle him right away.

I'll never forget watching post game coverage of one of the Broncos games back when Deltha was on the team and he got an INT. They were interviewing the opposing QB after the game and asked him to explain what happened on that play. He went into great detail to explain exactly what defense the Broncos were in and where they should all be and showed how Deltha was actually waaaay out of position and lucked into the INT because he was in the wrong place and the QB had anticipated him being in the right place. Still makes me chuckle. A lot of Deltha's INTs came that way. He either got a tipped ball or a really poorly thrown pass that was nowhere near the WR or anyone else.

TheReverend
06-03-2011, 11:57 AM
I think most Bronco fans loved Portis, and I would loved to have seen the Broncos find a way to keep Portis and still acquire Champ. I don't think Champ's return skills are poor, just that he's been really gimpy lately making a bunch of tackles and that took a toll on his body. I'm hoping Broncos have shored up the defense to where it allows Champ to do his job of covering and not being the extra linebacker out there.

His return skills are fine. Both picks and returning have more to do with zone over man... a luxury Champ hasn't had too much of.

Mr. Elway
06-03-2011, 12:04 PM
So about a quarter of Champ's return yards are from that Pats playoff game. I would never have guessed that.

Cito Pelon
06-03-2011, 12:26 PM
I think most Bronco fans loved Portis, and I would loved to have seen the Broncos find a way to keep Portis and still acquire Champ. I don't think Champ's return skills are poor, just that he's been really gimpy lately making a bunch of tackles and that took a toll on his body. I'm hoping Broncos have shored up the defense to where it allows Champ to do his job of covering and not being the extra linebacker out there.

Champ has certainly been the extra linebacker out there many a time. Champ doesn't f around, if he sees a guy he he should tackle, he attacks.

I believe Champ is probably top five all time in tackles for pure CB's.

TheReverend
06-03-2011, 12:47 PM
So about a quarter of Champ's return yards are from that Pats playoff game. I would never have guessed that.

Incorrect

bowtown
06-03-2011, 12:51 PM
Champ has certainly been the extra linebacker out there many a time. Champ doesn't f around, if he sees a guy he he should tackle, he attacks.

I believe Champ is probably top five all time in tackles for pure CB's.

At times it's felt like Champ is the ONLY linebacker out there. As far as a tackler goes, I'm not sure there's anyone I'd rather have at any position on the field. It's my absolute favorite thing about him, and it's something that he generally gets very little respect for from the media.

24champ
06-03-2011, 12:58 PM
Champ has certainly been the extra linebacker out there many a time. Champ doesn't f around, if he sees a guy he he should tackle, he attacks.

I believe Champ is probably top five all time in tackles for pure CB's.

I know Champ is a great tackler, but my point is that his body can't take 80-something tackles a year. The rest of the defense is going to have to step up and do their jobs, particularly the front 7.

Cito Pelon
06-03-2011, 01:03 PM
Probably because most of Champ's INTs seem to come while he's either diving or running along the sideline in blanket coverage, not in open space in a zone defense. The WR is usually in good position to tackle him right away.

I'll never forget watching post game coverage of one of the Broncos games back when Deltha was on the team and he got an INT. They were interviewing the opposing QB after the game and asked him to explain what happened on that play. He went into great detail to explain exactly what defense the Broncos were in and where they should all be and showed how Deltha was actually waaaay out of position and lucked into the INT because he was in the wrong place and the QB had anticipated him being in the right place. Still makes me chuckle. A lot of Deltha's INTs came that way. He either got a tipped ball or a really poorly thrown pass that was nowhere near the WR or anyone else.

OK, that's fine, but I don't see why Champ doesn't have better return numbers. It's not like the other 200 DB's ahead of Champ that intercepted balls were not falling down or on the sideline when they intercepted balls.

Billy Thompson has more INT yds than Champ. Steve Foley has more INT return yds than Champ. Dre Bly has more INT return yds than Champ. Tyrone Braxton has more INT return yds than Champ. Mike Harden has more INT return yds than Champ. Goose Gonsoulin has more INT return yds than Champ.

Champ is a poor returner. 446 yds with 48 INT's is awful.

alkemical
06-03-2011, 01:06 PM
I don't understand this thread.

Cito Pelon
06-03-2011, 01:07 PM
So about a quarter of Champ's return yards are from that Pats playoff game. I would never have guessed that.

Reg season Champ has 446 INT return yds.

Post season, 101 INT return yds. The stats are kept separately.

Cito Pelon
06-03-2011, 01:10 PM
At times it's felt like Champ is the ONLY linebacker out there. As far as a tackler goes, I'm not sure there's anyone I'd rather have at any position on the field. It's my absolute favorite thing about him, and it's something that he generally gets very little respect for from the media.

Agreed.

Cito Pelon
06-03-2011, 01:17 PM
I know Champ is a great tackler, but my point is that his body can't take 80-something tackles a year. The rest of the defense is going to have to step up and do their jobs, particularly the front 7.

Agreed again. The linebackers and the safeties somewhat have to protect the CB's from getting beat up. I guess that's why Fox/Allen went after some LB's and safeties. They recognized they needed an aggressive second layer to the front 7. I guess they figured a physical second layer was more important for this season, we'll see how it plays out.

baja
06-03-2011, 01:38 PM
At times it's felt like Champ is the ONLY linebacker out there. As far as a tackler goes, I'm not sure there's anyone I'd rather have at any position on the field.<b> It's my absolute favorite thing about him, and it's something that he generally gets very little respect for from the media.

me too

Beantown Bronco
06-03-2011, 02:14 PM
OK, that's fine, but I don't see why Champ doesn't have better return numbers. It's not like the other 200 DB's ahead of Champ that intercepted balls were not falling down or on the sideline when they intercepted balls.

Billy Thompson has more INT yds than Champ. Steve Foley has more INT return yds than Champ. Dre Bly has more INT return yds than Champ. Tyrone Braxton has more INT return yds than Champ. Mike Harden has more INT return yds than Champ. Goose Gonsoulin has more INT return yds than Champ.

Champ is a poor returner. 446 yds with 48 INT's is awful.

Is he a poor returner or is it the defenders around him not blocking anyone? I don't recall any instances of him NOT getting as many yards as possible after an INT.

TheReverend
06-03-2011, 02:27 PM
Is he a poor returner or is it the defenders around him not blocking anyone? I don't recall any instances of him NOT getting as many yards as possible after an INT.

Neither. You were 100% right the first time when you said it's scheme dependent.

Having room to run as a defender after the pick in man coverage means you got lucky. Period. Most of the time you're lucky to get a step or two.

Revis is an amazing athlete. His return numbers as an average (per pick and per year) are slightly better, but realistically on par with Champ's.

Why? Man coverage.

Mr. Elway
06-04-2011, 11:07 AM
Incorrect

So about a fizifth of Champ's return yards are from that Pats playoff game. I would never have guessed that.

TheReverend
06-04-2011, 02:57 PM
So about a fizifth of Champ's return yards are from that Pats playoff game. I would never have guessed that.

Still wrong.

Playoff #s dont count towards career stats bro.

So 0% of Champ's return yards are from that Pats playoff game.

Bronco Yoda
06-04-2011, 05:33 PM
Brandon Lloyd just on NFL Network.

Said he starting to believe in the Tebow hype after playing with him those last three games. Said it was fun watching him 'Will' the team to succeed. Wouldn't bite on who he thinks/wants as the starter. He's too smart for that.

CEH
06-04-2011, 05:37 PM
Most DBs can barely catch the ball let alone do something if they do catch it
Anotonio Cromatrie is probably the best right now in making something after the INT. The special ones (in terms of return yards) have a knack regardless of scheme.

When you are comparing HOF you have to use something to discrimanate and Deion had that extra big play ability.

That being said, there probably is not a coach in the last 35-40 years that would not want Champ Bailiey on his team.

Shananahan
06-04-2011, 06:16 PM
Ed Reeeeeed is probably the best right now in making something after the INT. The special ones (in terms of return yards) have a knack regardless of scheme.
Fixed.

TheReverend
06-04-2011, 06:32 PM
Most DBs can barely catch the ball let alone do something if they do catch it
Anotonio Cromatrie is probably the best right now in making something after the INT. The special ones (in terms of return yards) have a knack regardless of scheme.

When you are comparing HOF you have to use something to discrimanate and Deion had that extra big play ability.

That being said, there probably is not a coach in the last 35-40 years that would not want Champ Bailiey on his team.

I don't agree with that for one second.

Mr. Elway
06-04-2011, 06:36 PM
Still wrong.

Playoff #s dont count towards career stats bro.

So 0% of Champ's return yards are from that Pats playoff game.

Too funny. I'm not even trying to argue official statistics, just making the point that the game (and moment which, incidentally, I think best define Champ as a player) account for a inordinantly high percentage of the total return yards he has accrued in all the games he played. Regardless of how you keep stats, that's a surprising fact to me.

By the way I don't have some agenda with this point: Don't count me in the camp that thinks his return yards suck, the man has made some outrageous interceptions that required extraordinary body control and hands, and simply weren't returnable and probably would have been breakups (or completions) had they been on another DB. Like someone else said, a lot of his picks occurred on the sideline, and/or in the red zone, and you are also talking about the one man on the Bronco's defense whose position EVERYONE on the offense is keeping tabs on.

So whatever, tell me I'm wrong again because I'm not using the official NFL calculations, that's pretty much totally irrelevent to the point I am trying to make, mainly because I'm not comparing him to anyone else.

gyldenlove
06-04-2011, 06:44 PM
Too funny. I'm not even trying to argue official statistics, just making the point that the game (and moment which, incidentally, I think best define Champ as a player) account for a inordinantly high percentage of the total return yards he has accrued in all the games he played. Regardless of how you keep stats, that's a surprising fact to me.

By the way I don't have some agenda with this point: Don't count me in the camp that thinks his return yards suck, the man has made some outrageous interceptions that required extraordinary body control and hands, and simply weren't returnable and probably would have been breakups (or completions) had they been on another DB. Like someone else said, a lot of his picks occurred on the sideline, and/or in the red zone, and you are also talking about the one man on the Bronco's defense whose position EVERYONE on the offense is keeping tabs on.

So whatever, tell me I'm wrong again because I'm not using the official NFL calculations, that's pretty much totally irrelevent to the point I am trying to make, mainly because I'm not comparing him to anyone else.

It is very scheme specific with Champ, his first priority is always coverage so he is always close to an opposing player, if the ball is not thrown right on target then the interception becomes an option but in that case it will almost always be a ball he has to reach for meaning he is at a disadvantage in terms of taking off for a return or a contested ball which means he will be tackled right away.

Mr. Elway
06-04-2011, 06:50 PM
It is very scheme specific with Champ, his first priority is always coverage so he is always close to an opposing player, if the ball is not thrown right on target then the interception becomes an option but in that case it will almost always be a ball he has to reach for meaning he is at a disadvantage in terms of taking off for a return or a contested ball which means he will be tackled right away.

Good point. Many of his picks are pretty ridiculous for that reason. The point I'd make to anyone who thinks his return stats suck is just think back for a moment to all the games you have watched where he made a pick - did you ever once think that before you saw the stats? It's like those middleschoolers who go on YouTube to explain why John Elway is overrated because his QB rating wasn't that high. Sometimes you have to just watch someone play to see their impact on the game.

Shananahan
06-04-2011, 06:58 PM
Too funny. I'm not even trying to argue official statistics, just making the point that the game (and moment which, incidentally, I think best define Champ as a player) account for a inordinantly high percentage of the total return yards he has accrued in all the games he played. Regardless of how you keep stats, that's a surprising fact to me.
Well, that and 300+ yards of his total came in two seasons, '05 and '06.

Still, throw in the playoff results to his career numbers and you've got a guy with about 50 interceptions averaging 11.5 yards/int and 1td/8ints (might as well consider the NE return a TD for the sake of this argument and make it 1td/7ints). I don't understand why anybody would look at those stats and think there's a problem anywhere.

Captain 'Dre
06-05-2011, 02:11 PM
He went into great detail to explain exactly what defense the Broncos were in and where they should all be and showed how Deltha was actually waaaay out of position and lucked into the INT because he was in the wrong place and the QB had anticipated him being in the right place. Still makes me chuckle. A lot of Deltha's INTs came that way. He either got a tipped ball or a really poorly thrown pass that was nowhere near the WR or anyone else.

Deltha O'Neal was the anti-Champ Bailey.

Helluva guy with the ball in his hands, but a marginal cornerback.

Captain 'Dre
06-05-2011, 02:15 PM
Wouldn't bite on who he thinks/wants as the starter. He's too smart for that.

Yeah, but notice the interviewer asks the question anyway.

Lamest questions EVER are when players are asked if they agreed with the coach's play call. Like... as if the guy is going to say

"No... coach had his head up his butt on that one!"

barryr
06-05-2011, 05:57 PM
Deltha O'Neal was the anti-Champ Bailey.

Helluva guy with the ball in his hands, but a marginal cornerback.

Larry Brown got a big contract from the Raiders for being similar to OŽNeal and he wasnŽt even much with the ball in his hands either. Please let Al Davis own the Raiders forever LOL

GoBroncos84
06-05-2011, 06:33 PM
Champ ranks 48 on this countdown. Dwayne Bowe ranks 45. I suggest the players go back and watch the game tape from last year and then vote again.

HooptyHoops
06-05-2011, 07:12 PM
Champ ranks 48 on this countdown. Dwayne Bowe ranks 45. I suggest the players go back and watch the game tape from last year and then vote again.

Wow, that is pathetic!

Cito Pelon
06-06-2011, 07:14 AM
Is he a poor returner or is it the defenders around him not blocking anyone? I don't recall any instances of him NOT getting as many yards as possible after an INT.

That certainly has happened. I can see that being detrimental to return #'s, as well as a scheme aspect.

Cito Pelon
06-06-2011, 07:20 AM
Brandon Lloyd just on NFL Network.

Said he starting to believe in the Tebow hype after playing with him those last three games. Said it was fun watching him 'Will' the team to succeed. Wouldn't bite on who he thinks/wants as the starter. He's too smart for that.

Honestly, Lloyd is a loquacious dude, but stays away from controversy.

Captain 'Dre
06-06-2011, 07:42 AM
Larry Brown got a big contract from the Raiders for being similar to OŽNeal and he wasnŽt even much with the ball in his hands either. Please let Al Davis own the Raiders forever LOL

:yep:

I'd give a kidney if it would keep Al Davis in charge or the Raiders for another 20 years!

Tombstone RJ
06-06-2011, 08:50 AM
Bailey at #48 is suprising but there are only 5 CBs on the entire list which is also very suprising. With Lloyd and Bailey both listed, I'm wondering if there are any other Broncos on the list or if that is it.

bowtown
06-06-2011, 08:52 AM
Vickerson will prob be top 10. You can build an entire defense around that guy, I'm told.

TheReverend
06-06-2011, 08:57 AM
Vickerson will prob be top 10. You can build an entire defense around that guy, I'm told.

http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/90/909190.jpg

Beantown Bronco
06-06-2011, 09:05 AM
Vickerson will prob be top 10. You can build an entire defense around that guy, I'm told.

He's no John Engleberger.....but he's close.